How to Prevent Bat Recoil?

[rkbenn]

My son is hitting the ball really well. There is one problem, he gets a bit of bat recoil. He follows though, but a contact his bat speed slows down significantly. He's a bit on the light side, 4'9" 70 lbs at 10, not sure that has anything to do with it, weak hands, etc. Any pointers?

[mightylakers]

It will get better as he's getting stronger.

One drill can help is to have him hit a flat basketball(soft toss or off a tee). That really promotes strong hand at POC.

[DukeK]

This one's easy, use a heavier bat :)

What's he swinging now?

Seeing a video of his swing would be nice also.

[Knights Baseball]

Hitting a flat basketball really helped strengthen my wrist and forearms. I used to do it all the time and it really help me through contact.

[skipper5]

My son is hitting the ball really well. There is one problem, he gets a bit of bat recoil. He follows though, but a contact his bat speed slows down significantly. He's a bit on the light side, 4'9" 70 lbs at 10, not sure that has anything to do with it, weak hands, etc. Any pointers?

IMO, weak hands aren't the reason for the bat recoiling. Conservation of momentum is a function of bat-speed and bat-weight (overall wght, as well as the am't of end-load.)

According to "Does it matter how tightly you grip the bat?" , "One implication of this conclusion is that a player could essentially throw the bat at the ball and it would have the same effect as gripping the bat tightly in an attempt to get more power out of the collision with the ball." [assuming that bat-head speed was the same in both instances]

The reason is that the collision with the barrel only lasts a millesecond, which means that "the ball has left the bat before it even knows the handle exists."

http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/bats-new/grip.html

[RickyO]

Does distance from the sweet spot affect the amount of recoil? How about wrapping a tape around the sweet spot and have the player attempt to hit on that area?

[LAball]

There is no torque on the bat at contact. Yes he is basically throwing the bat at the ball and letting momentum cancel each other out. When you hit the sweet spot less energy is absorbed and more of it is transfered into rebound energy. But remember in wood bats the sweet spot is very small and most of the time your not gana hit the sweet spot so you must drive ( push-punch-torque) the bat through the ball. Ursa Major calls this action braceing the bat at contact. Anatomically what has happened is the wrist has uncocked (ulnar deviated) at POC. To strengthen the bat at POC means the wrist must stay cocked. Slit grip allows this because the grip makes it naturaly hard to uncock the wrist.

[skipper5]

There is no torque on the bat at contact. Yes he is basically throwing the bat at the ball and letting momentum cancel each other out. When you hit the sweet spot less energy is absorbed and more of it is transfered into rebound energy. But remember in wood bats the sweet spot is very small and most of the time your not gana hit the sweet spot so you must drive ( push-punch-torque) the bat through the ball. Ursa Major calls this action braceing the bat at contact. Anatomically what has happened is the wrist has uncocked (ulnar deviated) at POC. To strengthen the bat at POC means the wrist must stay cocked. Slit grip allows this because the grip makes it naturaly hard to uncock the wrist.

LAball,
Bracing the bat at contact may be a useful cue for getting the batter into a good L-position, but according to the physicists who study the collision, if you could somehow instantaneously remove your hands from the bat at the moment of contact, it wouldn't impair the speed that the ball comes off the bat.

What this means in terms of teaching kids to hit, I don't know.

[LAball]

but according to the physicists who study the collision, if you could somehow instantaneously remove your hands from the bat at the moment of contact,

I respectfully disagree. Especally with when not hitting the sweet spot.

[Chris O'Leary]

Bracing the bat at contact may be a useful cue for getting the batter into a good L-position, but according to the physicists who study the collision, if you could somehow instantaneously remove your hands from the bat at the moment of contact, it wouldn't impair the speed that the ball comes off the bat.

What's the citation for this, because it's a bit hard to believe?

Why wouldn't the impact just cause the bat to helicopter around the Center Of Gravity?

[Ursa Major]

RKB, I thought you'd posted swings of him before, but I researched your old posts and couldn't find it. It would really help to see a clip where this occurs. The usual culprits are (a) bat drag and thus no bracing of the bat, (b) disconnection, and (c) slow bat speed, often causeed by a deficient hand path (e.g., taking the knob straight to the ball), so the bat dies on contact. A weak grip may also contribute. Sometimes kids at this age subconsciousl slow the bat just before contact to make sure they hit the ball.

There's no single magic elixir because the cure to these problems is really to just become a better all-round hitter. But, I'd identify the lead culprit from the list above and attack it. If you can get a couple of things a little better -- perhaps a bit more bat wrap and avoiding the bat drag, he can maybe get a swing that looks a little like 10 y/o ChapterBehind, like this:
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/ChapterBehind_1-18a.gif

We've discussed the deflated basketball drill before -- I like it better than most (but only for a short time and mosttly for situations where kids just seem to have "dead hands")

[rkbenn]

RKB, I thought you'd posted swings of him before, but I researched your old posts and couldn't find it. It would really help to see a clip where this occurs. The usual culprits are (a) bat drag and thus no bracing of the bat, (b) disconnection, and (c) slow bat speed, often causeed by a deficient hand path (e.g., taking the knob straight to the ball), so the bat dies on contact. A weak grip may also contribute. Sometimes kids at this age subconsciousl slow the bat just before contact to make sure they hit the ball.

There's no single magic elixir because the cure to these problems is really to just become a better all-round hitter. But, I'd identify the lead culprit from the list above and attack it. If you can get a couple of things a little better -- perhaps a bit more bat wrap and avoiding the bat drag, he can maybe get a swing that looks a little like 10 y/o ChapterBehind, like this:
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/ChapterBehind_1-18a.gif

We've discussed the deflated basketball drill before -- I like it better than most (but only for a short time and mosttly for situations where kids just seem to have "dead hands")

Ursa,

He's got practice tomorrow, I'll take a camara. I haven't seen bat drag at all. He's pulling balls deep in the zone middle in. He is hitting liners to mid outfield. The just doesn't seem to be jumping off the bat. One thing I have noticed is he is dropping the barrel behind his back in a BP swing, but not in Tee work or soft toss..

[skipper5]

This begs the question: how much bat recoil is normal?

You've got a 70 lb. boy swinging an ultra-light bat against a baseball that weighs the same as a MLB baseball.

From watching slo-mo swings in the LLWS, I remember that a lot of the kids' bats slowed noticeably due to contact with the ball.

Ursa, the video you posted may start a trend of having batting practice in the living room. I like it. We're stuck in the basement.

[azmatsfan]

rkbenn, what is the drop of his bat? I asked for advise on this forum about my 10 yr old, and they suggested a drop of -8 or -9. I switched to a heavier bat. It has forced my son to stay connected through contact and there's a noticeable increase in his "pop". (He hit his first over the fence HR in his first batting practice of LL.)

[rkbenn]

This begs the question: how much bat recoil is normal?

You've got a 70 lb. boy swinging an ultra-light bat against a baseball that weighs the same as a MLB baseball.

From watching slo-mo swings in the LLWS, I remember that a lot of the kids' bats slowed noticeably due to contact with the ball.

Ursa, the video you posted may start a trend of having batting practice in the living room. I like it. We're stuck in the basement.

Skip,

Thanks for the input. BTW, he swings a 29" wood bat in Tee work and Soft toss. Pitchers throwing 55mph or less he uses a 32" drop -11. Greater than 55, he uses a 30" drop -12.

RK

[HYP]

Ursa,

He's got practice tomorrow, I'll take a camara. I haven't seen bat drag at all. He's pulling balls deep in the zone middle in. He is hitting liners to mid outfield. The just doesn't seem to be jumping off the bat. One thing I have noticed is he is dropping the barrel behind his back in a BP swing, but not in Tee work or soft toss..

This tells me something. I have noticed this before in kids against live pitching.

Soft toss and Tee there is no timing involved and worry about outcome.

Against pitching he is afraid to be late starts to drop barrel early, in order to not be late and then pulls barrel around and is early then pushes to contact.

My guess would be that he needs to trust his mechanics. Load with the barrel tipped. Do not untip until launch.

[mightylakers]

This tells me something. I have noticed this before in kids against live pitching.

Soft toss and Tee there is no timing involved and worry about outcome.

Against pitching he is afraid to be late starts to drop barrel early, in order to not be late and then pulls barrel around and is early then pushes to contact.

My guess would be that he needs to trust his mechanics. Load with the barrel tipped. Do not untip until launch.

That's a very valid point. My 11 yrs old kid used to have this problem. It's all mental. I have told him time after time to be patient and wait for the ball yet he just kept on hitting too early. So one day I took him to Frozen Ropes and let him facing the 4 wheel home plate pitching machine. Feeding him 85mph(the 90mph is a little wild so I decide not to use it), man he really turn on those balls hard. After that BP, I told him see if you can hit 85mph, do you think anyone of your age can throw anything fast enough past you? From that point on he really changed a lot at the plate and banging the balls a lot harder than before.

[rkbenn]

That's a very valid point. My 11 yrs old kid used to have this problem. It's all mental. I have told him time after time to be patient and wait for the ball yet he just kept on hitting too early. So one day I took him to Frozen Ropes and let him facing the 4 wheel home plate pitching machine. Feeding him 85mph(the 90mph is a little wild so I decide not to use it), man he really turn on those balls hard. After that BP, I told him see if you can hit 85mph, do you think anyone of your age can throw anything fast enough past you? From that point on he really changed a lot at the plate and banging the balls a lot harder than before.

That's interesting. My son is convinced he cannot use his 32 -11 with the best pitching in the league, so he defers to the lighter bat. He is on top of all pitching, not too much get past him. I think he can use the -11 against all pitching.

[skipper5]

"Against pitching he is afraid to be late starts to drop barrel early, in order to not be late and then pulls barrel around and is early then pushes to contact."

As a baseball coach (not a hitting coach per se), I've seen a lot of this right up through high school. It's not fatal. In the 60's and 70's some MLB batters took their stance with a flat bat and launched from there. But it robs power.

I'm pretty sure Nellie Fox (Senators) launched with a flat bat. 19 seasons, over 2600 hits. 35 career HRs.

Dropping from vertical and then pulling around against live pitching can be a hard habit to break. Have you ever tried having him set up with his bat at a 45 deg. angle and resting lightly on his shoulder, and loading and launching from there?

[Ursa Major]

Hyp said: Against pitching he is afraid to be late starts to drop barrel early, in order to not be late and then pulls barrel around and is early then pushes to contact.

My guess would be that he needs to trust his mechanics. Load with the barrel tipped. Do not untip until launch.:clapping:clapping:clapping

Exactly the issue for many kids. Try exaggerating with the tipping (and by this, I assume Hyp means to point the end of the bat almost toward the first base dugout during loading) to overcome the urge to flatten. Another supplemental cue is to try to get him to keep the hands closer to the rear shoulder while turning. It's hard to flatten the bat when the hands are back by the shoulders. Added bonus: this cue tends to defeat disconnection as well.