Pronation Curve?

[Chris O'Leary]

As anyone who follows my work knows, my enthusiasm for the ideas of Dr. Mike Marshall has faded over the years. This is due to a number of factors, most importantly an inconsistency between what he says his pitchers do and what they actually do.

A case in point is his pronation curve.

My understanding is that if a pitcher is maximally pronating at the release point, his hand will be between the ball and his head (as when you throw a circle change by pointing the circle at the target). However, if you look at this video closely, you will see that the pitcher's hand is outside of the ball, with the ball between his hand and his head.

http://www.chrisoleary.com//projects/Baseball/Pitching/Videos/Miscellaneous/Video_Pitching__Example_MarshallPitchingMotion_Pro nationCurve_002.gif

In other words, he's thumb up, in a supinated position, at the release point. His hand doesn't reach the point of maximum pronation until several frames after the release point.

I'm not sure how what I see in this clip is different than a standard curveball.

Here's a link to the original clip...

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjl3vJeFt0c&hl=en&autoplay=1

[Harley]

I think that the point is that this 12 year old pronates his hand before the bones in his elbow have a chance to slam into each other. As long as he does that, he will not develop bone chips or lose flexion and extension range of motion in his elbow.

[dm59]

Harley
I think you missed the point of Chris' question.

[Harley]

I guess so. What is Chris's point? Is he saying that Marshall claims that his Pronation Curve pronates at the point of release?

[Drill]

It would seem to me that this is a small attempt to get another Marshall thread going. If I am wrong, than teach the kid to throw the way that is best for long term success in your eyes.

Than getting the ball over the plate and location is the second thing you should be worried about, but I am sure you know that.


respectfully yours,

drill

[Chris O'Leary]

I think that the point is that this 12 year old pronates his hand before the bones in his elbow have a chance to slam into each other. As long as he does that, he will not develop bone chips or lose flexion and extension range of motion in his elbow.

Maybe the pronation will help prevent the Olecranon from slamming into its Fossa, but he's supinated through the release point which means he's not lowering the level of stress on his UCL.

Again, what I see in this clip is a plain old curveball (admittedly a nice one), not something new and different.

[Chris O'Leary]

It would seem to me that this is a small attempt to get another Marshall thread going. If I am wrong, than teach the kid to throw the way that is best for long term success in your eyes.

Do you see a standard curveball release in the clip?

[Drill]

Do you see a standard curveball release in the clip?


Its hard to see his foot work timing in this clip, it hard to say how he seems to be getting into a unnatural position at least for me. My question is how he got there and why?

Any way if the young man does not hurt his arm and is successful what is standard? IMHO. There are so many ways to throw successfully but finding the way to is stay healthy is what we should achieve first .

It's hard to talk about release and finger pressure until until the first step is work out.



respectfully yours,


drill

[kylebee]

The spin should be generated by the inward rotation of the arm and the pronation. In this case, it might not be.

Sit on a stool and put a wagon wheel at knee's height. Get the wheel to spin as quickly forward as possible by brushing your fingertips on top of the wheel on a line tangent to the wheel, rather than pulling down the front of the wheel with your thumb up.

That's one of Dr. Marshall's training tips, and it works for the kids I teach, too.

[Coach45]

Maybe the pronation will help prevent the Olecranon from slamming into its Fossa, but he's supinated through the release point which means he's not lowering the level of stress on his UCL.


Chris, the timing of maximum stress on his UCL comes long before release, when the upper arm hits maximum outward /external rotation and is not depicted in the clip you posted.

The youngster is actively pronating the release. Though I don't like this mechanic overall, the last thing this youngster is going to do is damage his UCL. Additionally, his elbow is flexed and maintains some degree of flexion throughout acceleration, release, and deceleration; back of the elbow is safe too.

[Baseball gLove]

I see the kid's hand is supinated and he tries to pronate. Watch as his hand supinates through release and does not go back to pronation until about this point where his thumb side is still slightly higher or supinated. If you rotate the picture so that his torso is upright his thumb is definitely skyward.

[Coach45]

gLove,

What you are describing is the wrist extending, which is independent of forearm pronation. Anatomically the hand does not pronate or supinate. Both these actions occur in the forearm, not the hand. He leads the release with the back of the hand skyward (forearm supinated with the wrist flexed), then as the wrist extends the forearm pronates through and after release, ultimately coupled with inward rotation of the upper arm.

63276

63277

[Baseball gLove]

Hi Coach 45, I can't see your attachments.

[Coach45]

Hi Coach 45, I can't see your attachments.I've exchanged e-mails with Webmaster a couple of times about this problem, and he's of the opinion that it's individual web browsers. This is frustrating for me and others, and I wish BBF would take a longer look. Sorry.

[Jake Patterson]

I wish I could help...

[kylebee]

Yeah, I've tried it on three different web browsers (Firefox, IE, Chrome) and logged in/out over and over again, to no avail.

As always, Coach45, you are welcome to shoot me an email with the contents and I'll rehost them for you.

[Coach45]

Thanks Kyle! Check your e-mail.

[kylebee]

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/591/pronation.jpg

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/4816/pronation.gif