First Step in Throwing

[CoachBob]

Simple question:

I was always taught the first step in throwing, (no matter if infield, outfield etc..) was to step with the inside of the throwing side leg toward the target (to line up your shoulders with the target) into the "power" position, then throw.

Step-->Power "L"-->Throw

Is this a good way to teach proper throwing to 8-9 yr old players?

[benz99]

We show them to come up with the ankle of the throwing side leg pointing toward the target for infielders, so yes same thing. Don't always happen that way though

[Chris O'Leary]

I was always taught the first step in throwing, (no matter if infield, outfield etc..) was to step with the inside of the throwing side leg toward the target (to line up your shoulders with the target) into the "power" position, then throw.

Step-->Power "L"-->Throw

Is this a good way to teach proper throwing to 8-9 yr old players?

Technically, the first step is to get sideways to the target (so a line through the shoulders points at the target).

This is usually done with a hop or steps with both feet, not just one.

Then you step directly at the target.

[benz99]

Technically, the first step is to get sideways to the target (so a line through the shoulders points at the target).

This is usually done with a hop or steps with both feet, not just one.

Then you step directly at the target.

Not what the white sox academy teaches, depends how skilled the kids are 5-6 yea we taught to jump up on the skateboard sorta like you describe,, this is a drill we used recently

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JTZMuMM0Ps

[Chris O'Leary]

Not what the white sox academy teaches, depends how skilled the kids are 5-6 yea we taught to jump up on the skateboard sorta like you describe,, this is a drill we used recently

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JTZMuMM0Ps

This is basically what I'm talking about.

The first step is with the back foot to get the shoulders in line with the target and then you step with the front foot directly at the target. At the younger levels the key is getting the shoulders pointing at the target more than the footwork. The footwork can come later once you get down the key concept of getting sideways to the target.

Catchers and some IFers also just jump into this position.

[Grizzly]

I've had success teaching 8 and 9's using a version of this drill:

http://www.5min.com/Video/How-To-Play-Baseball-3-Part-Throwing-Drill-6184999

Instead of a hand break to a "scarecrow" position, I tell the kids to make a "W". A few minutes with this at the beginning of each practice should pay dividends. (And it's simple enough that parents can duplicate at home.)

[Chris O'Leary]

I've had success teaching 8 and 9's using a version of this drill:

http://www.5min.com/Video/How-To-Play-Baseball-3-Part-Throwing-Drill-6184999

Instead of a hand break to a "scarecrow" position, I tell the kids to make a "W". A few minutes with this at the beginning of each practice should pay dividends. (And it's simple enough that parents can duplicate at home.)

First, I would NEVER teach fingers on top of the ball. It can lead to elbow problems in kids.

Second, there's no real value in stopping at the break position.

Third, while you don't want to fly open with the glove, pulling the glove in can actually cost you MPH.

[Ursa Major]

I think we're drifting away from the original question and the original target group (8 to 9 year olds). The question is this: is the "first step in throwing, (no matter if infield, outfield etc.) to step with the inside of the throwing side leg toward the target."

If you're focusing on the first step for kids who don't get it quite right, starting with moving the back/throwing arm side foot like you're talking about is fine. But that description doesn't tell you much. A really, really basic footwork drill is to start with the shoulders lined up toward the target and the kids in an athletic position. Now, have the inside of the back foot kick the front heel toward the target. Do that a few times, and then mix in an actual throw.

I emphasize kicking the front foot heel, because if you try to get the kids to just crow hop, the front foot could go anywhere. Kicking the heel empasizes the need to keep the hips closed as they stride.

Then, when you move on to fielding the ball and then throwing, you can do the "1-2-Field-1-2-throw" mechanic in the clip that Benz99 links to. The "1-2-throw" part of it can be done very nicely with the kicking the heel cue. I have found this to be very effective in working with the target group -- 8 to 9 year olds.

[Coach45]

Simple question:
Step-->Power "L"-->Throw

Is this a good way to teach proper throwing to 8-9 yr old players?

CoachBob,

I don't think the simple outline above is a good way to teach throwing. It leaves far too much open for interpretation, from setup posture and handbreak onward. We can have a longer conversation about this if you would like.

[Coach45]

The first step is with the back foot to get the shoulders in line with the target and then you step with the front foot directly at the target. At the younger levels the key is getting the shoulders pointing at the target more than the footwork. The footwork can come later once you get down the key concept of getting sideways to the target.

No! If you teach kids to step directly at the target they do not learn to use the hips to initiate their throws, and this is a huge problem.

Another problem is that throwing mechanics are incredibly complicated, with many component parts that ultimately need to flow from one to the other. Breaking throwing mechanics down into component parts, working backwards from acceleration and release, works very well for teaching this complex skill.

Once kids understand shoulder alignment, hand/ball alignment in the glove and then handbreak, all of which should orient the ball on a line from it's resting place in the glove straight to the target, they need to learn how to use the torso efficiently. In my opinion, only then should we can quickly add footwork, but if we're concentrating on shoulder alignment without footwork it's problematic.

[Coach45]

I think we're drifting away from the original question and the original target group (8 to 9 year olds). The question is this: is the "first step in throwing, (no matter if infield, outfield etc.) to step with the inside of the throwing side leg toward the target."

CoachBob, in your original post were you referring to overall throwing mechanics or more specifically to footwork?

[Chris O'Leary]

No! If you teach kids to step directly at the target they do not learn to use the hips to initiate their throws, and this is a huge problem.

What's the alternative?

My 3rd grade son is going through the process of remembering how to throw in preparation for the season, and the ball tends to go where he strides.

It's only when he strides directly at the target that the ball goes directly to the target.


Another problem is that throwing mechanics are incredibly complicated, with many component parts that ultimately need to flow from one to the other. Breaking throwing mechanics down into component parts, working backwards from acceleration and release, works very well for teaching this complex skill.

Once kids understand shoulder alignment, hand/ball alignment in the glove and then handbreak, all of which should orient the ball on a line from it's resting place in the glove straight to the target, they need to learn how to use the torso efficiently. In my opinion, only then should we can quickly add footwork, but if we're concentrating on shoulder alignment without footwork it's problematic.

I think this is too complicated when you're working with younger kids. You've got to keep it simple and fundamental, and the critical fundamentals in my experience are...

1. Get sideways to the target.
2. Stride in the direction you want the ball to go.

[kylebee]

Striding directly at the target causes you to pull your arm across.

Ride the gloveside after foot contact, stride slightly open, and get the ball up in the driveline early.

[Chris O'Leary]

Striding directly at the target causes you to pull your arm across.

Not in my experience.

When my 9YO son and his teammates stride open, he misses to the glove side.

Also, this is independent of getting the arm up early (which I do teach).

[kylebee]

When my 9YO son and his teammates stride open, he misses to the glove side.

I think this is normal, since a large stride open and the theoretical Marshall delivery for the Maxline Fastball causes this. It can be corrected.

Striding slightly open has been the only way to correctly teach the release of pronated breaking balls, in my experience. Otherwise the kids pull their arm across and supinate their curve/slider.

[Coach45]

What's the alternative?

My 3rd grade son is going through the process of remembering how to throw in preparation for the season, and the ball tends to go where he strides.

It's only when he strides directly at the target that the ball goes directly to the target.

There are a host of alternatives including front- and rear-crossover steps. I typically use the latter first because it incorporates the hips much better. You've now interchangeably used the words 'step' and 'stride'; which do you intend? There are substantial differences between the two.


I think this is too complicated when you're working with younger kids. You've got to keep it simple and fundamental, and the critical fundamentals in my experience are...

1. Get sideways to the target.
2. Stride in the direction you want the ball to go.

I disagree in the same way I objected to the original idea of "Step>Power "L">Throw. Reducing something complex by breaking it into parts, then quickly putting the parts together to form the whole yields greater (and more substantive) gains.

"Getting sideways to the target" teaches nothing about the footwork, posture, handbreak, etc., and these are all critical fundamentals. Kids learn them quickly when they are taught. If they are adept motor learners (realistically, most are not) they pick it up within a few days; longer for others.

"Striding in the direction you want the ball to go" teaches little or nothing about using the hips and core rotation, and ignores the fact that the hips have physical width. This is a complicated set of skills, but I don't think it's wise to assume that youngsters can't learn them. In my experience it's much tougher to unlearn bad habits that could have been corrected early on in the teaching process. Kids can do much more than we sometimes give them credit for, if properly taught. So, much of this depends on the skill of the teacher.

[Coach45]

When my 9YO son and his teammates stride open, he misses to the glove side.

I suspect this is because of incomplete torso rotation, and it's a problem fueled by inefficient use of the glove side.

[rkbenn]

There are a host of alternatives including front- and rear-crossover steps. I typically use the latter first because it incorporates the hips much better. You've now interchangeably used the words 'step' and 'stride'; which do you intend? There are substantial differences between the two.



I disagree in the same way I objected to the original idea of "Step>Power "L">Throw. Reducing something complex by breaking it into parts, then quickly putting the parts together to form the whole yields greater (and more substantive) gains.

"Getting sideways to the target" teaches nothing about the footwork, posture, handbreak, etc., and these are all critical fundamentals. Kids learn them quickly when they are taught. If they are adept motor learners (realistically, most are not) they pick it up within a few days; longer for others.

"Striding in the direction you want the ball to go" teaches little or nothing about using the hips and core rotation, and ignores the fact that the hips have physical width. This is a complicated set of skills, but I don't think it's wise to assume that youngsters can't learn them. In my experience it's much tougher to unlearn bad habits that could have been corrected early on in the teaching process. Kids can do much more than we sometimes give them credit for, if properly taught. So, much of this depends on the skill of the teacher.

Coach45,

After teaching proper, positioning, can't proper Long Toss help with proper hip and torso rotation?

[Coach45]

Coach45,

After teaching proper positioning, can't proper Long Toss help with proper hip and torso rotation?

We would need to define "proper" positioning and "proper" long toss first, but I think these concepts are best taught first at much shorter distances. And one of the core concepts is teaching the crow hop. Some of this discussion depends on the age group we're talking about. Very few 9-12 year olds have sufficient lower and upper body strength to move back very much without their mechanic falling apart.

Typically I see efficient hip and torso rotation decrease rather than increase as distances increase. In other words, their mechanical proficiency should dictate distances, not vice versa. Which in turn means that a coach needs do know what he's looking at! At youth levels we need to be doing a much better job of teaching than I generally observe. No criticism of individuals intended; simply an observation about the state of affairs.

[jacksimpk]

Striding slightly open has been the only way to correctly teach the release of pronated breaking balls, in my experience. Otherwise the kids pull their arm across and supinate their curve/slider.

We are talking about 8-9yo beginning throwing. I'd let pronated breaking balls wait a bit.

To the Original question:

"I was always taught the first step in throwing, (no matter if infield, outfield etc..) was to step with the inside of the throwing side leg toward the target (to line up your shoulders with the target) into the "power" position, then throw.

Step-->Power "L"-->Throw

Is this a good way to teach proper throwing to 8-9 yr old players? "

So much for it being a simple question! There could be a bit more description but that is basically what I've taught 6/7 year olds at entry level. I'd frame it more as
Square off with your ball side foot (this is a small step) >
Step with your glove side foot >
Throw

What we look for is to get body mass moving in the direction of the throw to put mass behind the ball. We look for a good finish to the throw (hand comming through to opposite hip or thigh) and the ball side leg comming around to square as an indicator of hip rotation.

Now I'm willing to accept that this kind of ignores talking about rotation and if someone has a good way to explain that to a 8 year old that has never held a baseball then please post. There is a lot going on in the upper body as well but this question isn't about upper body as far as I can tell. The video clip above was an upper body isolation drill working on hands and arms not really feet and legs. If you want us to argue about hands and arms go ahead and chime in and expand the question.

[Chris O'Leary]

There are a host of alternatives including front- and rear-crossover steps. I typically use the latter first because it incorporates the hips much better.

Are you talking about cross-over steps where the PAS foot crosses in front of or behind the GS foot (ala a crow hop)?

I agree that this is good because it...

1. Create momentum toward the target.
2. Helps you gain ground.

...but I don't know if I would teach it to a 6YO.

With a 6YO I would be happy if they just learned to get sideways to the target (however they did it).

One thing to keep in mind with younger kids is that for the first few years, except for arm action they basically have to learn how to throw all over again each year because they take 6+ months off. That gives you a chance to introduce more advanced concepts like footwork when they get older.


You've now interchangeably used the words 'step' and 'stride'; which do you intend? There are substantial differences between the two.

I didn't realize that you're focused on the first move being with the PAS (back) foot.

IMO, the PAS foot takes a positioning step while the GS foot takes more of a stride.


"Getting sideways to the target" teaches nothing about the footwork, posture, handbreak, etc., and these are all critical fundamentals. Kids learn them quickly when they are taught. If they are adept motor learners (realistically, most are not) they pick it up within a few days; longer for others.

While you're right, I don't know if I would teach, or worry about, all of this with young kids.


"Striding in the direction you want the ball to go" teaches little or nothing about using the hips and core rotation, and ignores the fact that the hips have physical width. This is a complicated set of skills, but I don't think it's wise to assume that youngsters can't learn them. In my experience it's much tougher to unlearn bad habits that could have been corrected early on in the teaching process. Kids can do much more than we sometimes give them credit for, if properly taught. So, much of this depends on the skill of the teacher.

If a kid doesn't learn to first get sideways to the target, everything else is a moot point.

I say this out of direct, personal experience. 80 to 90 percent of my 6th grade daughter's friends were never to get sideways to the target when they want to throw. As a result, when throwing a softball they start out facing the target and then "throw like a girl."

Worrying about footwork with these girls isn't going to do them any good because they don't even know to get sideways to the target.

In fact, teaching them to take their first step with their PAS foot, without first making sure they are sideways to the target, will make their problems worse and not better.

[Chris O'Leary]

Just to establish that I'm actually living this whole teaching kids how to throw thing, here's a clip of my younger son from last year.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Videos/YouthPitchers/Video_Pitching_IO_CrowHop_06252008_001.gif

I taught him how to throw and he's got one of the better arms on his team.

You can see him doing a cross-over step in the clip above, which I didn't team him but I guess he picked up watching my older son and my throw around.

His glove side arm action isn't perfect, but it's good enough for his age.

P.S. He's going to pitch some this year as long as I can convince him that even the best pitchers had to learn how to throw strikes.

[Coach45]

Chris,

Your son moves athletically very well. But the clip you just posted is a perfect example of how/why things can be changed at an early age in order to provide a stronger framework over the long haul. His handbreak is too early; it should take place about the time his right foot hits the ground, or slightly before. Because his throwing arm is up too soon the glove side collapses early (along with the throwing elbow dropping down). Over the long haul, as he gets stronger, this is going to stress his elbow too much. It will be much easier to teach him the correct timing now than for him to unlearn it down the road. Watching how he moves, he would pick this up very quickly. It will also help him if he can get his toe down forward of the heel on his posting foot; this will have the added benefits of aligning his stride properly (i.e. not closing himself off quite so much) and providing more power from the hips.

Why do you think it's important to get sideways to the target, as you put it?

[hawkiirock]

Coach, can you clarify this statement for me. Not following what you mean. Great stuff btw and Chris, your son looks very athletic there.





It will also help him if he can get his toe down forward of the heel on his posting foot;

[Coach45]

Coach, can you clarify this statement for me.

"It will also help him if he can get his toe down forward of the heel on his posting foot"

Hawk,

Look at where the toe of his rear foot is pointing. Given the direction of travel his toe should be ahead of the heel rather than vice versa. We don't walk or run with the heel leading the way; this is hard on the knee when he pivots and means that he can't use the hips efficiently. (Kyle...if you have a way to display this pic inline please feel free to grab it an repost. Thanks for your help!)

Link (http://www.rpmpitching.com/images/PostingFoot.jpg)

[Baseball gLove]

Hawk,

Look at where the toe of his rear foot is pointing. Given the direction of travel his toe should be ahead of the heel rather than vice versa. We don't walk or run with the heel leading the way; this is hard on the knee when he pivots and means that he can't use the hips efficiently. (Kyle...if you have a way to display this pic inline please feel free to grab it an repost. Thanks for your help!)

Link (http://www.rpmpitching.com/images/PostingFoot.jpg)

While this is true about walking or running, leading with the heel while pitching helps delay opening the hips until the gloveside foot lands and gives more power.

[bamajeff]

While this is true about walking or running, leading with the heel while pitching helps delay opening the hips until the gloveside foot lands and gives more power.

He's talking about his rear foot, not his front.

[CoachBob]

Wow, thanks for all the great tips.

My initial reason for posting was to get some simple steps for teaching 9 yr olds the proper steps to throwing. (especially footwork)

My thoughts for teaching throwing to this age is:

1) Step with throwing side foot (ankle toward target)
2) Step with glove side foot
3) Power 'L' position (glove side shoulder and elbow toward target)
4) Throw

Is this incorrect for this age? Should I be teaching more? If so, what?

[Coach45]

Hey Coach,

Explain what you mean by the "power-L" position and it will help with further feedback. If possible post a pic as an example.

[hawkiirock]

I see. YOu are talking about his right foot. Heel leading the toes. Correct? Thanks for the informative postsHawk,

Look at where the toe of his rear foot is pointing. Given the direction of travel his toe should be ahead of the heel rather than vice versa. We don't walk or run with the heel leading the way; this is hard on the knee when he pivots and means that he can't use the hips efficiently. (Kyle...if you have a way to display this pic inline please feel free to grab it an repost. Thanks for your help!)

Link (http://www.rpmpitching.com/images/PostingFoot.jpg)

[Coach45]

I see. YOu are talking about his right foot. Heel leading the toes. Correct? Thanks for the informative posts

Yes, I'm talking about his right foot.

[CoachBob]

Here is what I mean by the power position.

http://www.monkeysee.com/play/1702-baseball-pitching-the-power-position