BBF VC Progressive HoF Election: 1940 Preliminary

[DoubleX]

Below is the master list. Players in bold are newly eligible for the VC while players in italics made it to the final ballot last time. Every player that heldover for at least one year in the regular election appears on the master list. However, that’s mostly for administrative convenience and any player who was eligible for the regular election can be added to this list upon suggestion.

Anyone is free to participate in the discussion, but only the ballots of the 16 VC members will be counted (17 if Classic would like to rejoin).

Here's how the process works: We have two rounds of voting. In the first round, voters must list who they believe are the 15 best candidates on the master list. A final ballot will then be made consisting of every player that received at least 50% support in the first round. Voters will then to elect players from the master ballot, with 75% needed for election.
- NOTE: Some players are also eligible as contributors. If you feel a person's worthiness is not based primarily on his playing career, you should not vote for him here but vote for him in the contributors election (which will be held in the year following each players' election). It is possible that a person can be independently worthy as a both a player and contributor, in that rare case, it may be appropriate to vote for him in both capacities.

Each round of voting will last up to 5 days. If after 5 days not every member has voted, the results will be based on a quorum requiring at least 12 members to have voted.

Master List
Ginger Beaumont
Chief Bender
Bill Bradley
Kitty Bransfield
Tommy Bond
Charlie Buffinton
Jack Burdock
Oyster Burns
Ray Chapman
Jack Chesbro
John Clapp
Boileryard Clarke
Larry Corcoran
Tommy Corcoran
Jack Coombs
Gavvy Cravath
Lave Cross
Nig Cuppy
Candy Cummings
Abner Dalyrmple
Harry Davis
Bill Dinneen
Mike Donlin
Bill Donovan
Jack Doyle
Fred Dunlap
Frank Dwyer
Duke Farrell
Bob Ferguson
Cherokee Fisher
Ray Fisher
Wes Fisler
Silver Flint
Davy Force
Russ Ford
Dave Foutz
Kid Gleason
Mike Griffin
Clark Griffith
Noodles Hahn
Ned Hanlon
Topsy Hartsel
Claude Hendrix
Buck Herzog
Solly Hofman
Dummy Hoy
Miller Huggins
Charley Jones
Fielder Jones
Benny Kauff
Brickyard Kennedy
Silver King
Johnny Kling
Arlie Latham
Tommy Leach
Sam Leever
Andy Leonard
Bobby Lowe
Denny Lyons
Fergy Malone
Bobby Mathews
Jimmy McAleer
Dick McBride
Tommy McCarthy
Jim McCormick
John McGraw
Deacon McGuire
Ed McKean
Levi Meyerle
Billy Nash
Jack O'Connor
Tip O'Neill
Dave Orr
Orval Overall
John Peters
Deacon Phillippe
Jack Powell
Ed Reulbach
Claude Ritchey
Wilbert Robinson
Jack Rowe
Cy Seymour
Jimmy Sheckard
Chick Stahl
George Stone
George Stovall
Jesse Tannehill
Jeff Tesreau
Roy Thomas
Mike Tiernan
Joe Tinker
Terry Turner
John Warner
Doc White
Will White
Jim Whitney
Ned Williamson
Jimmy Williams
Hooks Wiltsie
Tom York
George Zettlein
Chief Zimmer

[PVNICK]

Bender
Bradley
Bond
Chapman
Cross
Davis
Griffin
Hahn
Kling
Leach
McCormick
Phillippe
Sheckard
Tiernan
Williamson

[Brad Harris]

Lave Cross
Mike Donlin
Fred Dunlap
Gavy Cravath
Clark Griffith
Noodles Hahn
Dummy Hoy
Charley Jones
Fielder Jones
Johnny Kling
Tommy Leach
Dave Orr
Jimmy Sheckard
Mike Tiernan
Ned Williamson

[jjpm74]

The guys in bold are the ones I plan on voting for if they make the cut. A few others I could be persuaded on with some discussion. Most notably Mike Tiernan and Clark Griffith:

Chief Bender
Tommy Bond
Larry Corcoran
Lave Cross
Duke Farrell
Clark Griffith
Charley Jones
Johnny Kling
Tommy Leach
Deacon McGuire
Jack Rowe
Jimmy Sheckard
Roy Thomas
Mike Tiernan
Chief Zimmer

[PVNICK]

I did it again, I seem to miss a name every other time I vote. This time it is Leach.

[jjpm74]

I did it again, I seem to miss a name every other time I vote. This time it is Leach.

You have plenty of time to go back and edit him in.

I cut and paste the master list each election, then delete the candidates that aren't close for me. If I end up with more than 15 (I ended up with 20 this election), I then go back and make the decision as to who stays and who goes. These 5 almost made the cut for me:

Candy Cummings
Noodles Hahn
Arlie Latham
Dick McBride
Ned Williamson

and may show up on a preliminary ballot from me in the future if there's space.

[jalbright]

Bender
Chapman
Chesbro
Cravath
Cross
Dunlap
Griffin
Griffith
C. Jones
Leach
Mathews
McGraw
Sheckard
Tiernan
Tinker

[BlueBlood]

Chief Bender
Tommy Bond
Candy Cummings
Clark Griffith
Dummy Hoy
Charley Jones
Silver King
Tommy Leach
Jim McCormick
John McGraw
Ed McKean
Tip O'Neill
Jimmy Sheckard
Mike Tiernan
Ned Williamson

Bold = Will be receiving my vote for certain
Italics = Open to suggestion

[DoubleX]

I did it again, I seem to miss a name every other time I vote. This time it is Leach.

You're free to go back and edit your ballot. I suspect Leach will make the cut anyway, but it probably wouldn't hurt to make an edit if you want to include Leach.

In the future, I think I'm going to come up with a system that truncates the master ballot. It's only going to get more cluttered as time goes on, making it easier for someone to accidentally gloss over someone they intend to support. I'm thinking that if a player hasn't received any support in two consecutive elections, I'll probably drop them from the master ballot, though they'll still technically be eligible. The list is really just a handy guide.

[henrich]

01 jack coombs
02 jack chesbro
03 lave cross
04 duke farrell
05 clark griffith
06 Tommy leach
07 sam leever
08 jim mccormick
09 deacon mcguire
10 tip o'neill
11 deacon phillippe
12 jack powell
13 ed reulbach
14 jack rowe
15 joe tinker

list is alphabetical

[Cowtipper]

Tommy Bond
Charlie Buffinton
Jack Chesbro
Gavvy Cravath
Lave Cross
Candy Cummings
Clark Griffith
Charley Jones
Tommy Leach
Jim McCormick
Deacon McGuire
Dave Orr
Deacon Phillippe
Jesse Tannehill
Will White

[Paul Wendt]

Bender, Leach, and Tinker replace McBride, McCormick, and Nash . . .
late nominee Cravath replaces Fielder Jones . . .

Chief Bender (p,new)
Gavy Cravath
Lave Cross
Candy Cummings (p)
Mike Griffin
Clark Griffith (p)
Charley Jones
Johnny Kling
Tommy Leach (new)
John McGraw
Deacon McGuire
Jimmy Sheckard
Roy Thomas
Mike Tiernan
Joe Tinker (new)

. . . pending further developments as other vote.

Regarding the pitchers:

My support for Clark Griffith remains rock solid. Beside his work as pitcher and player-manager, he was an officer of the Players Association officer and a heavy lifter for the American League.

I am not solid for Candy Cummings but I suspect he may have more second-round support than preliminary heavyweight Jim McCormick. I support Dick McBride, partly for his 10+ seasons as captain of the Athletics. Unfortunately he garnered only two prelim votes last time, down from four, and the other has relegated him to honorable mention. I don't have time to argue for him seriously, which would demand some research in 1860s newspapers, so I too let him slide. Bobby Mathews has jalbright's preliminary support this year. He is the earliest known spitballer, which isn't so great as earliest known curveballer. He pitched a little longer than Cummings, about a decade longer. There may be a case for him but it needs primary research, too, including some 1869/1870.

Chief Bender is a newcomer who deserves a chance, I think. Benderistas should argue him into the second round this year.

--
I expected to vote to give Miller Huggins a shot. He was a very good player including his first two or three seasons as a manager.

Do you know?
Miller Huggins, Branch Rickey, and Fielder Jones were the managers of three St Louis teams 1914 and 1915. Huggins succeeded Roger Bresnahan in 1913, Jones succeeded Mordecai Brown mid-1914, and Jones ousted Rickey in 1916 when the AL and FL teams merged.

[DoubleX]

Jack Chesbro - I still feel obligated to make up for leaving him off the regular election ballots.
Lave Cross
Candy Cummings
Duke Farrell
Mike Griffin
Clark Griffith
Charley Jones
Fielder Jones
Tommy Leach
Bobby Mathews - For some reason, I was suddenly impressed with his 4950+ innings and 297 wins.
Jim McCormick
Deacon McGuire
Ed McKean
Jimmy Sheckard
Mike Tiernan

I think Farrell and McGuire are worth hard looks. Other than Charlie Bennett, we really haven't elected any fulltime catchers (that should change though in the next 10-15 years). Bresnahan, Ewing, McVey, and White all spent significant time at other positions. In respect to just McGuire, he caught about 660 more games than Bennett. McGuire, at least in terms of usage, may really be the first of the modern catchers. His 1611 games caught is impressive, IMO, particularly given the rigors of catching during his era. There was really nothing like it, especially given his productivity.

[philkid3]

Chief Bender
Tommy Bond
Bill Bradley
Jack Chesbro
Gavvy Cravath
Lave Cross
Miller Huggins
Silver King
Tommy Leach
Jim McCormick
John McGraw
Tip O'Neill
Jimmy Sheckard
Mike Tiernan
Joe Tinker

[philkid3]

I'm simply amazed by the number of ballots Bender isn't on. While I can see the argument for not voting for him in the normal ballots, I can't see not finding him one of the 15 most deserving players on this list.

I will once again be voting for him for his cultural impact to a large segment of America, even if he falls short of my performance baseline, and hope others will do the same.

[Brad Harris]

Bobby Mathews - For some reason, I was suddenly impressed with his 4950+ innings and 297 wins.
Perhaps because it's out of context? Of the 19 pitchers with at least 4,750 innings (min. of 200 less than Mathews' total), Mathews' win total is the second lowest, besting only Bert Blyleven and by 10 wins.

[bambambaseball]

Perhaps because it's out of context? Of the 19 pitchers with at least 4,750 innings (min. of 200 less than Mathews' total), Mathews' win total is the second lowest, besting only Bert Blyleven and by 10 wins.

Huh? Bert who??? As far as I can tell no one has ever played by that name. That is a very uninformed and very ignorent approach. :crazy

Chief Bender has and will be the best of the best of minority pitchers. If you cant see that you arent giving the period a logical or even semi serious look. :laugh

[jjpm74]

Huh? Bert who??? As far as I can tell no one has ever played by that name. That is a very uninformed and very ignorent approach. :crazy

Chief Bender has and will be the best of the best of minority pitchers. If you cant see that you arent giving the period a logical or even semi serious look. :laugh

It is possible to disagree without being rude. :rolleyes:

[Brad Harris]

Huh? Bert who??? As far as I can tell no one has ever played by that name. That is a very uninformed and very ignorent approach. :crazy
Quite right. :choke:

To date, of the top eleven pitchers in career innings pitched (thru 1939), Mathews (at #7 on that list) is the only one who did not win 300 games.

[KCGHOST]

Ray Chapman
Larry Corcoran
Lave Cross
Nig Cuppy
Fred Dunlap
Clark Griffith
Charley Jones
Tommy Leach
John McGraw
Deacon McGuire
Ed McKean
Mike Tiernan
Jimmy Sheckard
New Williamson

[jjpm74]

Quite right. :choke:

To date, of the top eleven pitchers in career innings pitched (thru 1939), Mathews (at #7 on that list) is the only one who did not win 300 games.

Not to mention the fact that his best years came in the NA and AA. Mathews tooled around baseball pitching wherever he could. If we count his minor league years and 1860s play, he's well over 300 wins. However, even in a 1940 context, Mathews was just a mediocre compiler who has an even lesser case for the Hall than Jack Powell.

[DoubleX]

Perhaps because it's out of context? Of the 19 pitchers with at least 4,750 innings (min. of 200 less than Mathews' total), Mathews' win total is the second lowest, besting only Bert Blyleven and by 10 wins.

I have no intention of voting for Mathews, but when filling out my 15, no one else was really striking me this time, so I went with Mathews based on his compiled numbers.

Anyway, I would like to shift more focus to McGuire and Farrell, and McGuire in particular.

[dgarza]

Tommy Bond
Gavvy Cravath
Charley Jones
Benny Kauff
Silver King
Denny Lyons
Bobby Mathews
Jim McCormick
John McGraw
Ed McKean
Levi Meyerle
Tip O'Neill
Dave Orr
Mike Tiernan
Will White

[Captain Cold Nose]

Chief Bender
Jack Chesbro
Lave Cross
Charley Jones
Johnny Kling
Tommy Leach
Denny Lyons
Bobby Mathews
Jim McCormick
Deacon McGuire
Jimmy Sheckard
Roy Thomas
Mike Tiernan
Joe Tinker
Ned Williamson

[DoubleX]

Chief Bender
Tommy Bond
Bill Bradley
Jack Chesbro
Lave Cross
Miller Huggins
Silver King
Tommy Leach
Jim McCormick
John McGraw
Tip O'Neill
Jimmy Sheckard
Mike Tiernan
Joe Tinker

philkid, you only have 14 players on your ballot.

EDIT: You too kcghost.

[Paul Wendt]

KCGhost,

You have named only 14.

You may have some influence by adding someone with moderate support from other voters (not Cross, Griffith, C.Jones, Leach, McCormick, Sheckard, Tiernan).

[DoubleX]

I forgot to add Gavvy Cravath to the master list. If you've already voted, please let me know if you'd like to add him to your ballot (replacing someone else).

[philkid3]

Drop Dunlap, add Cravath.

[leecemark]

Ray Chapman
Jack Chesbro
Gavvy Cravath
Lave Cross
Candy Cummings
Bob Ferguson
Kid Gleason
Clark Griffith
Noodles Hahn
Johnny Kling
Tommy Leach
Jimmy Sheckard
Roy Thomas
Joe Tinker
Ned Williamson
Chief Zimmer

[DoubleX]

Mark, you named one too many. Who would you like to drop?

[jjpm74]

My ballot stands. Cravath isn't close enough for me to add him. Maybe in 1945.

[dgarza]

I added Cravath and dropped Corcoran

[henrich]

No cravath for me.

[leecemark]

Mark, you named one too many. Who would you like to drop?

drop hahn please

[Cowtipper]

I dropped Donlin and added Cravath.

[Paul Wendt]

I have replaced Fielder Jones with Gavy Cravath.

Jones is one of my favorites but he doesn't have much support and everyone else on my original ballot has several votes, I think --maybe at least five which puts them all in striking distance. Rather than take a meaningless vote from Tommy Leach, which feels too manipulative for me, this is my solution.

[PVNICK]

No Cravath here.

[DoubleX]

Three members (AG2004, Freakshow, Windy City Fan) have yet to vote, but we have our quorum. The final election will begin tomorrow, but here are the preliminary results as of now (7 votes is currently required to make the final ballot):

Tentative Final Ballot
Chief Bender - 7 Votes
Jack Chesbro - 7 Votes
Gavvy Cravath - 8 Votes
Lave Cross - 12 Votes
Clark Griffith - 10 Votes
Charley Jones - 9 Votes
Tommy Leach - 13 Votes
Jim McCormick - 8 Votes
Deacon McGuire - 7 Votes
Jimmy Sheckard - 11 Votes
Mike Tiernan - 11 Votes

Still Alive
Tommy Bond - 6 Votes
Johnny Kling - 6 Votes
John McGraw - 6 Votes
Joe Tinker - 6 Votes
Ned Williamson - 6 Votes

Others Receiving Support
Candy Cummings - 5 Votes

Ray Chapman - 4 Votes
Mike Griffin - 4 Votes
Bobby Mathews - 4 Votes
Ed McKean - 4 Votes
Tip O'Neill - 4 Votes
Roy Thomas- 4 Votes

Fred Dunlap - 3 Votes
Duke Farrell - 3 Votes
Silver King - 3 Votes
Dave Orr - 3 Votes
Deacon Phillippe - 3 Votes

Bill Bradley - 2 Votes
Larry Corcoran - 2 Votes
Noodles Hahn - 2 Votes
Dummy Hoy - 2 Votes
Fielder Jones - 2 Votes
Denny Lyons - 2 Votes
Jack Rowe - 2 Votes
Will White - 2 Votes
Chief Zimmer - 2 Votes

Charlie Buffinton - 1 Vote
Jack Coombs - 1 Vote
Nig Cuppy - 1 Vote
Harry Davis - 1 Vote
Mike Donlin - 1 Vote
Bob Ferguson - 1 Vote
Kid Gleason - 1 Vote
Miller Huggins - 1 Vote
Benny Kauff - 1 Vote
Sam Leever - 1 Vote
Levi Meyerle - 1 Vote
Jack Powell - 1 Vote
Ed Reulbach - 1 Vote
Jesse Tannehill - 1 Vote

[KCGHOST]

Okay, add Tinker to my ballot.

[AG2004]

My final fifteen:

Tommy Bond
Gavy Cravath
Candy Cummings
Dave Foutz
Clark Griffith

Charley Jones
Fielder Jones
Johnny Kling
Tommy Leach
John McGraw

Billy Nash
Jimmy Sheckard
Roy Thomas
Mike Tiernan
Ed Williamson

[DoubleX]

I was actually just about to post the final results when I noticed AG2004's ballot just got in. His ballot actually eliminated four players that I was about to post on the final ballot:

Chief Bender
Jack Chesbro
Deacon McGuire
Joe Tinker

I'm disappointed to not see McGuire make it. His durability and productivity at catcher really stood out when he played and did so until just recently really (the 1930s).

[jjpm74]

I was actually just about to post the final results when I noticed AG2004's ballot just got in. His ballot actually eliminated four players that I was about to post on the final ballot:

Chief Bender
Jack Chesbro
Deacon McGuire
Joe Tinker

I'm disappointed to not see McGuire make it. His durability and productivity at catcher really stood out when he played and did so until just recently really (the 1930s).

As am I, though I had no plans to vote for him in the 2nd round.

Just out of curiosity, why do we need a 2 tiered approach to voting? Are you planning to do something with the preliminary round information down the road?

[Freakshow]

I was actually just about to post the final results when I noticed AG2004's ballot just got in. His ballot actually eliminated four players Which was probably the intent.

Why not base players' eligibility for the VC on their support level in the regular elections?

[DoubleX]

As am I, though I had no plans to vote for him in the 2nd round.

Just out of curiosity, why do we need a 2 tiered approach to voting? Are you planning to do something with the preliminary round information down the road?

I think it helps whittle down a very and growing field of candidates plus provides us an extra opportunity to for discussion. I think the process has worked fairly well.

[jjpm74]

I think it helps whittle down a very and growing field of candidates plus provides us an extra opportunity to for discussion. I think the process has worked fairly well.

This election, all it did was eliminate 4 candidates from the ballot at the last second. There are much better ways to whittle down the pool of candidates.

[jalbright]

For all the sturm and drang about the four AG2004 didn't vote for and thus kept them off the later ballot:

1) Even had AG2004 voted for them, they would just barely have gotten over 50% of the vote as one of the 15 best bypassed candidates; and
2) Though I voted for three of them in the preliminary ballot, I have no intention of voting for any of them in the final voting;
3) I doubt I am alone on point #2, especially if we do it by individual candidates;
4) Combine all of the above three facts, and it's hard to escape the conclusion that none of the four have much better than a snowball's chance in Hades' blast furnaces of being elected this time out.

Also, like it or not, AG2004 is a habitual late voter in every project I've seen him involved in. It's not like he singled out this election for some special treatment. I wouldn't want to be the last voter near the deadline because people focus on that last vote as the backbreaker (or not), even though in this format if a guy has a real chance of earning induction on the final ballot in question, he shouldn't have any problem being over 50% at the preliminary stage. AG2004's habit yields him this grief with some frequency, though if he posted the very same ballot on the first day or two, it would pass without comment.

[jjpm74]

AG2004's habit yields him this grief with some frequency, though if he posted the very same ballot on the first day or two, it would pass without comment.

Such is life. ;)

[philkid3]

I was definitely prepared to vote for Bender and Tinker.

[jalbright]

Such is life. ;)

So is the disappearance of Bender, Chesbro, McGuire and Tinker from the ballot. ;)