Who do You Think is Using, not Using?

[beemax]

In light of the ongoing PED conversation in baseball, I wanted to start a thread to talk about those who have not been implicated or proven to have used PED's...yet. I think we as fans and players not only deserve the right to know who is clean and is not, we also reserve the right to question whether or not someone is clean based on how we have been betrayed by so many so far. It is a sad state, but IMO players are judged as guilty until proven innocent on this issue now...so state your case, guilty or not.

I know how it may sound or look, but I don't want this to be a mockery of the situation and/or cause for immature and useless banter. Rather I want people to be able to back up their suspicions and or affirmations with numbers and/or photos. I think it would be very interesting to see what people think and who they believe used/are using and who didn't/are not using.

[Drill]

Just out of interest how did ball players with physicians. How was it prescribed in the beginning and what effect did it have before they found out its downfalls of the medicine.


drill

[beemax]

Just out of interest how did ball players with physicians. How was it prescribed in the beginning and what effect did it have before they found out its downfalls of the medicine.


drill

Not sure what you mean.....

[omg]

My gut feeling is that most are "using"" although a significant number may not test positive due to masking agents. If the most talented are using then I'm sure the less talented are as well. There are very few Cal Ripkens around and most I'm sure can rationalize use by thinking a) it's for my family (salary-making the bigs) or b)veryone else is doing it-I should do it just to be on a level field.

And I fault no player for doing it because it is just a cultural phenomena. I fault the the money-making media, self-promoting politicians, and ownership.

[Deemax]

Albert Pujols.

-the amount of oppo power
-body proportions
-the era

Hope I am wrong, but he makes me wonder.

I really really wanted A-rod to be clean.... I thought the game needed it.

[beemax]

Here is a guy that I always questioned: Luis Gonzalez.

He never hit more than 31 home runs in a year, until 2001, where he hit 57. Hitting 26 more home runs than you have ever hit in one season raises my eyebrows, and here are some pictures of him, progressing from his rookie year (first pic) in 1991 to his 57 HR year in 2001 (last two):

[omg]

Here is a guy that I always questioned: Luis Gonzalez.

He never hit more than 31 home runs in a year, until 2001, where he hit 57. Hitting 26 more home runs than you have ever hit in one season raises my eyebrows, and here are some pictures of him, progressing from his rookie year (first pic) in 1991 to his 57 HR year in 2001 (last two):

No-brainer.

[Deemax]

:nod:
http://images.camdenchat.com/images/admin/40_banderson.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1390/1044549274_502cb69173.jpg?v=0

[beemax]

Another: Nomar Garciaparra.

Went from hitting .268 with 8 home runs in 500-plus at bats in AA in 1995 to .306 with 30 home runs in the big leagues in 1997. From '97 to 2003 (throwing out 2001 because of injury), he averaged 28 home runs and hit well over .300 each year. Since 2004, when he turned 30, he has managed to hit 20 home runs once and has been oft-injured.

Compare him in college (yes, that really is him) to in the big leagues:

[Stealth]

Mike Piazza - his name seems to come up when talking with guys who played with him.

[Stealth]

Another: Nomar Garciaparra.

Went from hitting .268 with 8 home runs in 500-plus at bats in AA in 1995 to .306 with 30 home runs in the big leagues in 1997. From '97 to 2003 (throwing out 2001 because of injury), he averaged 28 home runs and hit well over .300 each year. Since 2004, when he turned 30, he has managed to hit 20 home runs once and has been oft-injured.

Compare him in college (yes, that really is him) to in the big leagues:

That's amazing!

[scorekeeper]

Not Using - Sal Fasano

[beemax]

Mike Piazza - his name seems to come up when talking with guys who played with him.

I agree. He hit 33 home runs in 2002, was hurt part of 2003, and never hit more than 22 again. It may have also been a combination of age and playing catcher, but IMO he has always been suspect.

I think it is important to point out that 2003 was the year that the random, anonymous (unless you are A-Rod) testing was going on and 2004 was the first year of the steroid policy.

[HYP]

Can't get a picture but Ron Gant just blew up one year. His arms were huge.

I hate to think that most are using but now it is hard to think they are not.

I always leaned towards thinking the ones that were using were the guys on the bubble or on there way out because of age or injury. The ones who just want to get there and the ones who want a couple more years.

Now with the big names coming out, who knows, they all could be using. What ashame for the ones who are not using.

HYP

[AltaLomaStorm]

NOT using - Josh Hamilton

[beemax]

NOT using - Josh Hamilton

I hope this is true, but what evidence do you have that it is? He is a horse, and an amazing talent, but I don't know of any proof one way or another. It just doesn't seem as black as white as that.

I'm not saying he is using, I just can't prove he isn't.

[Baseball gLove]

NOT using - Josh Hamilton

I have a source that says he is still using what he used to use.

[Baseball gLove]

Do they even have a test for HGH?

[PhilliesPhan22]

Mentioned already:

Gonzo
Pujols

Not mentioned:

Pudge
Papi: goes from being a 15 homer guy to a 45 homer guy

[PhilliesPhan22]

I would be disappointed if any of my Phillies were using. I think Moyer and Utley are safe.

[beemax]

I have a source that says he is still using what he used to use.

Meaning that he is using what?

[Baseball gLove]

Mentioned already:

Gonzo
Pujols

Not mentioned:

Pudge
Papi: goes from being a 15 homer guy to a 45 homer guy

Pudge Rodriguez name has come up. There is a basball card called three of a kind with Alex Rodriguez, Pudge Rodriguez and Rafael Plamiero. The three roiders.

They haven't banned overeating yet so I think Big Papi may be in the clear.

[Deemax]

I have a source that says he is still using what he used to use.

If your source is right, we will all know shortly... I think he is still subject to testing based on previous positive tests.

I hope he's clean.

[soceric]

Mentioned already:

Gonzo
Pujols

Not mentioned:

Pudge
Papi: goes from being a 15 homer guy to a 45 homer guy

Pudge...

My gut says so too.

[Baseball gLove]

Meaning that he is using what?

They're not performance enhancers.

[AltaLomaStorm]

I hope this is true, but what evidence do you have that it is? He is a horse, and an amazing talent, but I don't know of any proof one way or another. It just doesn't seem as black as white as that.

I'm not saying he is using, I just can't prove he isn't.
Taken from a June 2008 SI article - Every third day Hamilton provides a urine sample to a lab technician at the ballpark. "If I miss a third day, I'm tested two days in a row," says Hamilton. "I'll do it until MLB says I don't have to anymore."

Now, I don't know this for a fact, but I would venture to say:
1. He is still being tested by MLB
2. MLB (or whatever lab they contract with) tests for any/every substance they have banned - which includes dope and PED's.

For him to be using, MLB would have to be involved in keeping it secret (knowing full well their secret will eventually be exposed). Why risk another black eye?

I sure hope he is not using.

[beemax]

Taken from a June 2008 SI article - Every third day Hamilton provides a urine sample to a lab technician at the ballpark. "If I miss a third day, I'm tested two days in a row," says Hamilton. "I'll do it until MLB says I don't have to anymore."

Now, I don't know this for a fact, but I would venture to say:
1. He is still being tested by MLB
2. MLB (or whatever lab they contract with) tests for any/every substance they have banned - which includes dope and PED's.

For him to be using, MLB would have to be involved in keeping it secret (knowing full well their secret will eventually be exposed). Why risk another black eye?

I sure hope he is not using.

I'm sure he is still being tested, but there is no test in MLB for HGH. Again, not saying that he is using something, and I hope he is totally clean of PED's and drugs, but who can know for sure?

Another thing:

2005 was the first year that positive drug tests resulted in suspension, 12 MLB players tested positive. In 2006, 2 tested positive. 2007, 5 tested positive. Not sure what the numbers were last year but it was merely a handful anyway.

Are we supposed to believe that those positive tests were from the only guys using PED's? I would think anyone who believes that to be very naive.

Again, not saying Hamilton did or didn't. This applies to all across the board.

[AltaLomaStorm]

I have a source that says he is still using what he used to use.

Has your "source" personally seen him using, or is this 2nd hand? Actually, that is a pretty stupid question...of course he has seen him smokin rock because NO ONE would ever pass along unconfirmed hearsay now, would they?

[AltaLomaStorm]

I'm sure he is still being tested, but there is no test in MLB for HGH. Again, not saying that he is using something, and I hope he is totally clean of PED's and drugs, but who can know for sure?

Another thing:

2005 was the first year that positive drug tests resulted in suspension, 12 MLB players tested positive. In 2006, 2 tested positive. 2007, 5 tested positive. Not sure what the numbers were last year but it was merely a handful anyway.

Are we supposed to believe that those positive tests were from the only guys using PED's? I would think anyone who believes that to be very naive.

Again, not saying Hamilton did or didn't. This applies to all across the board.
Bee - was everyone in MLB tested or was it random? And if they took a sample from every player, was every sample tested, or just a portion of the samples?

We recently hired a guy who kicked around the majors for a year or two as a pitcher and went on to play some in Japan. Where I work we require a polygraph exam and background check. I sat in on his selection interview and he admitted to using PED's. He also said most, not all, but most ML's, were using "something." His reason for using? He could not compete at that level without them. Whether true or not, I don't know - but I did get his signed rookie card out of him for my son :clapping

[dominik]

They're not performance enhancers.

Do you want to imply that he is on drugs again? This would be horrible news.

[g-mac]

Do you want to imply that he is on drugs again? This would be horrible news.
No doubt! This guy has always had nothing but extreme potential. He's probably one of the few that could have been very competitive in the "Steroid Era" without even having to use.

[g-mac]

Albert Pujols.

-the amount of oppo power
-body proportions
-the era

Hope I am wrong, but he makes me wonder.


I hope you're wrong...I really hope you're wrong.

[beemax]

Bee - was everyone in MLB tested or was it random? And if they took a sample from every player, was every sample tested, or just a portion of the samples?


Everyone is tested, but not all at the same time. In the minors we were under the same policy, and I know that we were tested randomly (meaning not all at the same time). I played for roughly 2 years, and I was tested at least 4 times that I can recall.

I also know players that cheated the tests in the minors. However, the few contacts I have in the majors said that the testers are on you like a hound dog until you get done with the test.

[dominik]

No doubt! This guy has always had nothing but extreme potential. He's probably one of the few that could have been very competitive in the "Steroid Era" without even having to use.

I was not talking about roids but the drugs he used as an addict. Looked like his post implied this(those where not performance enhancing).

[PhilliesPhan22]

Mark Leiter: Came back one year with the Phillies throwing 95-96 after being around 90 the year before.

[wogdoggy]

Pudge Rodriguez name has come up. There is a basball card called three of a kind with Alex Rodriguez, Pudge Rodriguez and Rafael Plamiero. The three roiders.

They haven't banned overeating yet so I think Big Papi may be in the clear.



I spit my coffee on that big papi comment..:nod:

[jofus]

As a lifelong Yankees fan (well, since I was 8, anyway, and first started playing ball), I may be biased, but I would have to say that Jeter is clean, and I certainly hope that is the case.

Obviously you hope all of them are clean, but you gotta wonder...for example, it's gotta be hard for a catcher to catch as many games as those guys do without something.

Like mentioned before, it's easy to understand the temptation, when you could be talking the difference between making millions of dollars and going home :|

[coach scotty]

In my life I have had three baseball players that I would call my baseball idols. Ozzie Smith, Craig Biggio, and Ken Griffy Jr. I wore 24 because of Griffy and now my son wears the number. Now I have to say I believe Griffy is clean but if it turned out he isn't I would probably stop watching baseball.

[bob_r]

Mentioned already:

Gonzo
Pujols

Not mentioned:

Pudge
Papi: goes from being a 15 homer guy to a 45 homer guy

I could never imagine big papi doing. He made a comment the other day at spring training that if somebody is caught now it should be an automatic 1 year suspension. He has always been a big guy and has never been super ripped - kind of soft.

[korp]

Just out of interest how did ball players with physicians. How was it prescribed in the beginning and what effect did it have before they found out its downfalls of the medicine.


drill
I don't think steroids were prescribed ... but I believe HGH can be or for the right price at least.

Pujols also made comments about steroids but he had to of taken something. Papi ... doubtful. Look at the guys that take them .. they are ripped ... look at Papi, hes got some chub.

[Jake Patterson]

I spit my coffee on that big papi comment..:nod:Papi... I think not

[beemax]

Two more guys: Matt Holliday and Todd Helton

Holliday: Never hit more than 16 HR in a minor league season (note: he hit 16 HR at Asheville in 1999. Asheville is possibly the smallest park in minor league baseball, but don't hold me to it) then goes 19, 34, 36, 25 (part of last year on DL). I put up two pictures of him; the card, I'm not sure the date but it was obviously a few years back, and the other was taken at the end of last year.

Helton: Shot up to the big leagues by hitting for a high average and never more than 16 home runs. Did come into Colorado before the humidor was used on balls as well, but from 98-04 averaged 35 HR a year. He turned 31 in 2005 and has it 20 home runs in a season once since. A case of the humidor? Maybe. Getting older? Maybe, but he has been in the 'prime years' during this time.

Helton was questioned a few years back by an announcer who later apologized to him, but as is the case with all of these guys, why would somebody say something for no reason? His power numbers have dropped significantly in a short period of time. As for his body, he never had a big frame, nor did he have the 'look' of guys like Sosa, McGwire, or Bonds, but the numbers are eyebrow raising.

[wogdoggy]

Papi... I think not

i agree just thought it funny

[conky149er]

Two more guys: Matt Holliday and Todd Helton

Holliday: Never hit more than 16 HR in a minor league season (note: he hit 16 HR at Asheville in 1999. Asheville is possibly the smallest park in minor league baseball, but don't hold me to it) then goes 19, 34, 36, 25 (part of last year on DL). I put up two pictures of him; the card, I'm not sure the date but it was obviously a few years back, and the other was taken at the end of last year.

Helton: Shot up to the big leagues by hitting for a high average and never more than 16 home runs. Did come into Colorado before the humidor was used on balls as well, but from 98-04 averaged 35 HR a year. He turned 31 in 2005 and has it 20 home runs in a season once since. A case of the humidor? Maybe. Getting older? Maybe, but he has been in the 'prime years' during this time.

Helton was questioned a few years back by an announcer who later apologized to him, but as is the case with all of these guys, why would somebody say something for no reason? His power numbers have dropped significantly in a short period of time. As for his body, he never had a big frame, nor did he have the 'look' of guys like Sosa, McGwire, or Bonds, but the numbers are eyebrow raising.
i really, REALLY hope Holliday isent using because he is one of my most faviotre players

Helton, id bet a few hundred bucks saying he roided some time in his carrer

[Jake Patterson]

i agree just thought it funnyHe's taking CED's (Chub enhancing drugs).:D

[conky149er]

Papi... I think not

i think he is or was but i mean he is the one talking about a 162 game ban for it


so, either he isent roiding at all, or he is really dumb:laugh

[g-mac]

In my life I have had three baseball players that I would call my baseball idols. Ozzie Smith, Craig Biggio, and Ken Griffy Jr. I wore 24 because of Griffy and now my son wears the number. Now I have to say I believe Griffy is clean but if it turned out he isn't I would probably stop watching baseball.
I think it would safe to say all of those guys are clean. Griffy struggled too much with staying healthy to be juicing.
BTW, I think you would have to add Mattingly to your list. That's sad when it's harder to come up with names of players that you don't think were juicing.

[beemax]

For me, when Nook Logan (with 11 career home runs in 7 professional seasons) was named in the Mitchell Report linking him to PED's, I decided that NOBODY was safe from suspicion.

[virg]

He's taking CED's (Chub enhancing drugs).:D

I'm wondering more about what they think of "who's watching".

The ballparks get shrunk and the balls juiced by the owners so folks can see balls fly over walls, in the ongoing quest for the perfectly gullible fan. Seems to me they've designed the fan they want. MLB and the owners look the other way whenever convenient, the fans do too but then cry over Paradise Lost. Around here, we follow suit.

[Jake Patterson]

I'm wondering more about what they think of "who's watching".

The ballparks get shrunk and the balls juiced by the owners so folks can see balls fly over walls, in the ongoing quest for the perfectly gullible fan. Seems to me they've designed the fan they want. MLB and the owners look the other way whenever convenient, the fans do too but then cry over Paradise Lost. Around here, we follow suit.I agree... until the fans stop going to game and refuse to pay the exorbitant ticket costs, things will remain the same.

[azmatsfan]

Can't get a picture but Ron Gant just blew up one year. His arms were huge.

I hate to think that most are using but now it is hard to think they are not.

I always leaned towards thinking the ones that were using were the guys on the bubble or on there way out because of age or injury. The ones who just want to get there and the ones who want a couple more years.

Now with the big names coming out, who knows, they all could be using. What ashame for the ones who are not using.

HYP

Ron Gant was the first ballplayer I remember looking at and thinking, "He's juicing."

[korp]

For me, when Nook Logan (with 11 career home runs in 7 professional seasons) was named in the Mitchell Report linking him to PED's, I decided that NOBODY was safe from suspicion.
Ahahahahaha.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RNTGmdWUiI ----- If only I could have seen this in person .... big time roid rage.

[tominct]

Here is a guy that I always questioned: Luis Gonzalez.

He never hit more than 31 home runs in a year, until 2001, where he hit 57. Hitting 26 more home runs than you have ever hit in one season raises my eyebrows, and here are some pictures of him, progressing from his rookie year (first pic) in 1991 to his 57 HR year in 2001 (last two):

A GIVEN

he's an easy one

[tominct]

Another: Nomar Garciaparra.

Went from hitting .268 with 8 home runs in 500-plus at bats in AA in 1995 to .306 with 30 home runs in the big leagues in 1997. From '97 to 2003 (throwing out 2001 because of injury), he averaged 28 home runs and hit well over .300 each year. Since 2004, when he turned 30, he has managed to hit 20 home runs once and has been oft-injured.

Compare him in college (yes, that really is him) to in the big leagues:

Amen! I saw him in AA and he was a twig....another no-brainer....

[tominct]

NOT using - Josh Hamilton

Not anymore perhaps! There are "life-time natural" Bodybuilding competitions for a reason.

[conky149er]

anyone else think A-rod was like this?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oCnqy8Klaw



i could see arod pulling a mark coleman

[tominct]

Pudge Rodriguez name has come up. There is a basball card called three of a kind with Alex Rodriguez, Pudge Rodriguez and Rafael Plamiero. The three roiders.

They haven't banned overeating yet so I think Big Papi may be in the clear.

Pudge is another absolute no brainer, havent any of you guys ever been to a gym? My god!

[tominct]

In my life I have had three baseball players that I would call my baseball idols. Ozzie Smith, Craig Biggio, and Ken Griffy Jr. I wore 24 because of Griffy and now my son wears the number. Now I have to say I believe Griffy is clean but if it turned out he isn't I would probably stop watching baseball.

Hate to break it to ya, but Ozzie was likely clean, and MAYBE Junior, but Biggio, forget it...juicer, big time! KillerB's Biggio/Bagwell.....roiders for sure, Id bet my house in it.

[conky149er]

Hate to break it to ya, but Ozzie was likely clean, and MAYBE Junior, but Biggio, forget it...juicer, big time! KillerB's Biggio/Bagwell.....roiders for sure, Id bet my house in it.

Bagwell- forsure

Berkman- 50/50

but Biggio?


Biggio?

[tominct]

Ron Gant was the first ballplayer I remember looking at and thinking, "He's juicing."

For me it was Canseco....1988 playoffs in Fenway, "Steroids....Steroids....Steroids!. Then I got looking at that Texas Ranger team in the early 90's, with Gonzalez...juicer, Pudge...juicer., Dean Palmer...juicer, Palmiero, Canseco, Julio Franco. It was while watching that team play that I thought, holy crap, baseball players are juicing like mad!

[Stealth]

If F.P. Santangelo juiced I think anyone could be suspected for using PED's. As I see it everyone is a possible suspect. Including Biggio.

I feel bad for the players who did NOT use PED's but how will we ever know?

[korp]

anyone else think A-rod was like this?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oCnqy8Klaw



i could see arod pulling a mark coleman
No doubt when he found out he was busted lol.

Junior juicing? Honestly anything is possible but he is pretty much the same size as when he was younger. He has been injury prone since he left the Mariners so that could suggest something but he doesn't stick out like one whos on the juice. Biggio is another one that doesn't really stickout but I could see it being possible on him. Then again too its possible to use it one year and not anymore and not gain much size .... or be like big mac and get huge.

[tominct]

Bagwell- forsure

Berkman- 50/50

but Biggio?


Biggio?

BIGGIO....Ab-SO-Blankin-Lutley!

He had 30 HR's his first FIVE years in the bigs....from 93-07 he AVERAGED 17.4, which included a season of 8 in which he had only 101 ABs and one of 10, when he was 42 years old. This from a guy who was listed at 5'11.

[tadlock11]

Bagwell- forsure

Berkman- 50/50

but Biggio?


Biggio?

I really would hope not, but...
http://www.astrosdaily.com/files/gallery/Bagwell_Jeff_Rookie.jpghttp://www.astrosdaily.com/files/gallery/Bagwell_Jeff_43.jpg

[TG Coach]

I don't think it's fair for any poster to be the thought police and provide conjecture on who might be using. What if someone posted you have the look in your eye of a wife beater and asked who agrees?

I'd like to see MLB toss out all the evidence and provide amnesty for the period of time it takes a body to clean up. Then start testing everyone with a "one and done" rule. Any player caught would be suspended for the remainder of a season and all of the following season. Test in spring training, all-star break and mid September for any players on contending teams. And test for everything. Keep the inventors of new drugs on the run.

[dominik]

Agreed. You should leave juicers of the past like bonds, Arod, mac... alone(instead of making rediculous trials-government could do much better things with their money against doping) and instead make a deadline(alowing time to get them clean) and say. Who is tested positively after this will be punished real hard(complete season on first incident as papi suggested). This would help most I think.

[AltaLomaStorm]

Ahahahahaha.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RNTGmdWUiI ----- If only I could have seen this in person .... big time roid rage.
Yea, someone call the cops, he was totally out of control. Roid rage AT ITS WORSE!

[Berkman#17]

BIGGIO....Ab-SO-Blankin-Lutley!

He had 30 HR's his first FIVE years in the bigs....from 93-07 he AVERAGED 17.4, which included a season of 8 in which he had only 101 ABs and one of 10, when he was 42 years old. This from a guy who was listed at 5'11.

The season of 8 came in 101 games. Not At bats.

And, this guy had 152 HR's in his first FIVE years in the bigs....from 61-66 he AVERAGED 43.83. This from a guy who was listed at 5'11.

Who was this guy?
http://ccww.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/willie_mays_front.jpg

[Postblankier]

Not that it has affected his appearance much as far as I can see, but Ryan Madson clearly started doing something different halfway through last season. Sat 90-91 most of his career, bullpen or starting, suddenly started sitting 94-95 in July, hitting 98 as late as October.

I hope he's not, because he's been filthy and the Phillies already lost Romero to a semantical penalty.

[coach scotty]

BIGGIO....Ab-SO-Blankin-Lutley!

He had 30 HR's his first FIVE years in the bigs....from 93-07 he AVERAGED 17.4, which included a season of 8 in which he had only 101 ABs and one of 10, when he was 42 years old. This from a guy who was listed at 5'11.

I would hate to find out he did but with a guy that would sell his soul to stretch a double into a triple it easy to suspect he might take every advantage available. But God I hope not.

[korp]

The season of 8 came in 101 games. Not At bats.

And, this guy had 152 HR's in his first FIVE years in the bigs....from 61-66 he AVERAGED 43.83. This from a guy who was listed at 5'11.

Who was this guy?
http://ccww.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/willie_mays_front.jpg
Hank Aaron was only 6' ... not a huge difference.

[Berkman#17]

Mel Ott would like to know if there is something wrong with a short guy hitting home runs too.

[LAball]

I know this is baseball forum (I dont know too much about the MLB:silent:). but in other sports...
-LeBron James- He was huge, like a man coming out of HS
-Byron Scott, He got big all of a sudden.shooting 3's and lifting weights are like oil and water..
-Kobe got big after LeBron came to the NBA, now he is a bit smaller.
-The Big Serena sister (tennis) she looks like a man
-Lance Armstrong....what are the odds of going to someone elses home and winning 7 freekin times. though his PED's are proly different then one ones used in baseball.
-These are just my opinion. I believe this stuff got started when my idol Magic Johnson got HIV. They can take steroids with HIV due to muscle atrophy. Soon after MJ got HIV he was still playing in the NBA and in one game he got so mad, MJ went up and chest bumped an official, that is very uncharacteristic of MJ. I believe it was riod rage taking over. Soon after MJ left, Bryon Scott got Huge..
-I think we even have to doubt Tiger Woods due to his historical wins in this era.
Just my opinion and may not be worth Bonds' piss.

[highpockets]

Another: Nomar Garciaparra.

Compare him in college (yes, that really is him) to in the big leagues:
What the photo shows is pretty good evidence that Nomar has spent some time in the weight room. On my high school wrestling team we had people with more pronounced muscle tone than that, and that was over 40 years ago.

[virg]

Compare Cassius Clay movies before the layoff, to Ali's after. Cassius could backpedal faster than Ali could run. No comparison, and it was all natural maturity during his early twenties. Or did he invent steroids then?

Suddenly rich young ballplayer, early twenties, time and means for bodybuilding as the body naturally matures. Some of that is in play with a few of these guys.

[mcloven]

Which sportswriters do you think were using PEDs (amphetamines, ritalin, etc.) to write their late night articles and keep up with their hectic travel schedules and deadlines, and to stay ahead of competitors?

It's well known that college students use those drugs while writing papers or studying... http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/70784.php

Anyone for testing sportswriters?

[Deemax]

Which sportswriters do you think were using PEDs (amphetamines, ritalin, etc.) to write their late night articles and keep up with their hectic travel schedules and deadlines, and to stay ahead of competitors?



without a doubt..... SKIP BAYLESS

[kylebee]

Pretty sure Griffey Jr. wasn't using steroids. Possibly amphetamines, but I doubt juice. He was very loathe to go into the weight room in the first place, believing that the added muscle would slow him down or hurt him. (Which of course is absurd.)

Injuries plagued his career and ruined his pursuit of being the best HR hitter of all time. Seems really unlikely that he juiced.

[beemax]

I don't think it's fair for any poster to be the thought police and provide conjecture on who might be using. What if someone posted you have the look in your eye of a wife beater and asked who agrees?


Do you think its fair for MLB players to cheat other guys out of a job and make millions? Yet it has been happening for years.

Like I said in the post that started this thread, I think we as fans and players deserve the right to question whether or not a player is clean based on the way we have been betrayed by so many so far. IMO we all have opinions, so why not talk about them here as long as we have evidence to back it up one way or another?

As for the wife beater take, I really think it doesn't hold up to this. I know I have provided photos and numbers to back up my opinions. If you have some photos or statistics to back up who is a wife beater, you may want to contact the authorities. I don't want juicers to go to jail. I want every wife beater to.

In the end, even if a player is juicing, I still understand why they did/do it. For all the mess that A-Rod has created, he still has a 9-digit bank account, and that's really the bottom line.

Over the past two decades records have been shattered, players have been playing longer, and home run totals have skyrocketed. Now I am not one to give all the credit to PED's (I think the natural progression of better education in diet and exercise plays a big role), but with the rampant use that we know of, many of these numbers are phony, which is a shame.

The tickets, apparel, and hot dogs we buy go to the contracts these guys get paid. I was a player so I have always been of the belief that if someone is willing to pay it, more power to them. But if you look at it, salaries have also skyrocketed during this period. It costs every family more an more to take their kids to a game in large part because players who have cheated have garnered huge contracts that the owners need to play for. It is all interconnected, so that is why I believe we have a right to question this.

[The Duece]

Oh, come on. This is the problem with speculating about who is juicing and who isn't. One poster's comment about Biggio is a case in point. Biggio didn't hit homers earlier in his career because he was playing in the original configuration of the huge-a** Astrodome. NOBODY was hitting them out of there with any consistency. Then, they changed the layout, brought the fences in, and suddenly everyone's numbers went up, including Biggio. Then, they moved to the new ballpark, which is REALLY a hitter's park. To just look at the stats, and base your suspicions on that alone, is truly ignorance. Biggio was a doubles hitter. If he had been juicing, he would have hit more than Jeff Kent.

That's the problem with all this speculation. It becomes a popularity contest. I'm guilty of it, too. Look at Pujols. He looked like a cartoon charater a few years ago. Now they start testing and suddenly he looks human again. Do you hear his name linked to steriods very often? Not as much, because he's popular player. He gets a pass.

I'm as guilty as the next guy when it comes to speculation.....but a little caution is in order. Guys like Biggio shouldn't be smeared out of ignorance.

[dominik]

Do you think its fair for MLB players to cheat other guys out of a job and make millions? Yet it has been happening for years.

Like I said in the post that started this thread, I think we as fans and players deserve the right to question whether or not a player is clean based on the way we have been betrayed by so many so far. IMO we all have opinions, so why not talk about them here as long as we have evidence to back it up one way or another?

As for the wife beater take, I really think it doesn't hold up to this. I know I have provided photos and numbers to back up my opinions. If you have some photos or statistics to back up who is a wife beater, you may want to contact the authorities. I don't want juicers to go to jail. I want every wife beater to.

In the end, even if a player is juicing, I still understand why they did/do it. For all the mess that A-Rod has created, he still has a 9-digit bank account, and that's really the bottom line.

Over the past two decades records have been shattered, players have been playing longer, and home run totals have skyrocketed. Now I am not one to give all the credit to PED's (I think the natural progression of better education in diet and exercise plays a big role), but with the rampant use that we know of, many of these numbers are phony, which is a shame.

The tickets, apparel, and hot dogs we buy go to the contracts these guys get paid. I was a player so I have always been of the belief that if someone is willing to pay it, more power to them. But if you look at it, salaries have also skyrocketed during this period. It costs every family more an more to take their kids to a game in large part because players who have cheated have garnered huge contracts that the owners need to play for. It is all interconnected, so that is why I believe we have a right to question this.

Agreed! The time for innocent until proven guilty is over. There where so many cases now that there is a general suspicion on every player. Now it's on the players to prove they are CLEAN.

[beemax]

One poster's comment about Biggio is a case in point. Biggio didn't hit homers earlier in his career because he was playing in the original configuration of the huge-a** Astrodome. NOBODY was hitting them out of there with any consistency. Then, they changed the layout, brought the fences in, and suddenly everyone's numbers went up, including Biggio.

Biggio's first year with the Astros-1988

Astrodome dimensions 1988- Foul Lines 330ft Power Alleys 378ft Center 400ft

Biggio's last year in the Astrodome-1999

Astrodome dimensions 1999- Foul Lines 325ft Power Alleys 375ft Center 400ft

The first year the Astrodome brought its fences 'in' (while Biggio was there) was in 1992. He hit 6 home runs that year. In 1993 they moved the fences back 5 feet in the alleys and down the lines, and he hit 22 home runs. IMO the fences had nothing to do with it either way.

I'm not one saying he was using or not. I just don't think the fences at the Astrodome were a defining factor either way.

If he had been juicing, he would have hit more than Jeff Kent.

Why would he have hit more than Kent?

That's the problem with all this speculation. It becomes a popularity contest. I'm guilty of it, too. Look at Pujols. He looked like a cartoon charater a few years ago. Now they start testing and suddenly he looks human again. Do you hear his name linked to steriods very often? Not as much, because he's popular player. He gets a pass.

If you looked early in this thread, you would have seen that some are suspicious of Pujols, myself included.

Is A-Rod a popular player? Clemens? Bonds? Giambi?

[TG Coach]

I know this is baseball forum (I dont know too much about the MLB:silent:). but in other sports...
-LeBron James- He was huge, like a man coming out of HS
-Byron Scott, He got big all of a sudden.shooting 3's and lifting weights are like oil and water..
-Kobe got big after LeBron came to the NBA, now he is a bit smaller.
-The Big Serena sister (tennis) she looks like a man
-Lance Armstrong....what are the odds of going to someone elses home and winning 7 freekin times. though his PED's are proly different then one ones used in baseball.
-These are just my opinion. I believe this stuff got started when my idol Magic Johnson got HIV. They can take steroids with HIV due to muscle atrophy. Soon after MJ got HIV he was still playing in the NBA and in one game he got so mad, MJ went up and chest bumped an official, that is very uncharacteristic of MJ. I believe it was riod rage taking over. Soon after MJ left, Bryon Scott got Huge..
-I think we even have to doubt Tiger Woods due to his historical wins in this era.
Just my opinion and may not be worth Bonds' piss.

You can't beat class envy! Let's throw all the winners under the bus. Take awy their trophies. Take away their money. They're all guilty until they prove they're innocent.

[TG Coach]

Do you think its fair for MLB players to cheat other guys out of a job and make millions? Yet it has been happening for years.

Like I said in the post that started this thread, I think we as fans and players deserve the right to question whether or not a player is clean based on the way we have been betrayed by so many so far. IMO we all have opinions, so why not talk about them here as long as we have evidence to back it up one way or another?

As for the wife beater take, I really think it doesn't hold up to this. I know I have provided photos and numbers to back up my opinions. If you have some photos or statistics to back up who is a wife beater, you may want to contact the authorities. I don't want juicers to go to jail. I want every wife beater to.

In the end, even if a player is juicing, I still understand why they did/do it. For all the mess that A-Rod has created, he still has a 9-digit bank account, and that's really the bottom line.

Over the past two decades records have been shattered, players have been playing longer, and home run totals have skyrocketed. Now I am not one to give all the credit to PED's (I think the natural progression of better education in diet and exercise plays a big role), but with the rampant use that we know of, many of these numbers are phony, which is a shame.

The tickets, apparel, and hot dogs we buy go to the contracts these guys get paid. I was a player so I have always been of the belief that if someone is willing to pay it, more power to them. But if you look at it, salaries have also skyrocketed during this period. It costs every family more an more to take their kids to a game in large part because players who have cheated have garnered huge contracts that the owners need to play for. It is all interconnected, so that is why I believe we have a right to question this.

It's very easy to see by reading this thread you've ignited a guilty until proven innocent thread. How would you like it if people in your community went public with things about you that would ruin your reputation and career based on assumptions?

[TG Coach]

Agreed! The time for innocent until proven guilty is over. There where so many cases now that there is a general suspicion on every player. Now it's on the players to prove they are CLEAN.

When did this stop being America. You've been charged with murder. You weren't there where it happened. Are you guilty until your trial ends and you're proven innocent? Let's suspend the baseball season and throw them all in jail until they can prove their innocence. Maybe we need to start with rounding up all the Jews and Japanese. Am I hitting home yet?

[korp]

Just in case you guys missed the Sportscenter or haven't heard ... A-Rod actually has a long relationship with Angel something (can't remember the last name). Anyways hes a trainer who is banned from baseball and has been linked to steroids through the mitchell report. Apparently this guy traveled and stayed in the same hotel as A-Rod .... in a room with A-Rod's cousin who supposedly provided the steroids. If they can find some evidence its very likely that A-Rod will be suspended .... from when I was listening they said for sure up to 2007 this was going on but I didn't hear if it happened in 2008 or not. Seriously is it that hard to be honest when you are already caught and in the hot seat? Enough of this Lie, Lie, Lie.

[beemax]

It's very easy to see by reading this thread you've ignited a guilty until proven innocent thread. How would you like it if people in your community went public with things about you that would ruin your reputation and career based on assumptions?

A few things:

1. Do you think that the people posting on here are going to have any sustainable effect on these players' careers or reputations? I think you are overstating the influence of a online baseball posting site. Nobody outside of this site pays attention or cares about what we write.

2. I hate that it is guilty until proven innocent as much as anyone else, HOWEVER, this is a culture the players have created. If players would come out and admit their wrongdoing flat out, right now, this wouldn't happen. Unfortunately that is not the case, and I'm afraid that other players names will continue to come out.

3. Back to the careers and reputations...if the guys are still getting paid, do you think they care about their reputations? Clemens, Bonds, Giambi, A-Rod, Canseco, McGwire, Sosa...they have made over a BILLION dollars combined in their careers. Are we supposed to feel sorry for them? Can you name another profession where you can cheat to get paid the most and not have it effect your bank account? Does that upset you?

4. As far as going public with these opinions, we are not putting these guys on trial, we are merely using stats and photos to question if their careers have been clean. We are not charging them with anything, we are merely questioning it. For the sake of the game and their careers I hope I am wrong about my suspicions, but I have been around the game too long to deny it. I do not wish for them to do jail time for merely using PED's; I just want them to admit that their careers were enhanced by this stuff, or provide rock solid evidence that they didn't use.

5. I wouldn't like it at all if people went public about my career and reputation, but being that this is baseball, I dare anyone to question if I was clean or not. I wouldn't have started this thread if I didn't feel confident in my suspicions, suspicions that I'm positive thousands have about guys.

To me it is similar to the O.J. Simpson trial. He was acquitted of murder, but how many people really felt that he didn't do it? While the ramifications are not nearly as bad, PED use in baseball has gone unspoken for too long.

Again, I feel that any fan who contributes to contracts that may have been earned with PED use deserves the right to know if the players are clean or not.

[The Football Ref]

Alright, which one of you cry babies didn't like my Barry Bonds Rookie Card ?

[dominik]

When did this stop being America. You've been charged with murder. You weren't there where it happened. Are you guilty until your trial ends and you're proven innocent? Let's suspend the baseball season and throw them all in jail until they can prove their innocence. Maybe we need to start with rounding up all the Jews and Japanese. Am I hitting home yet?

I don't talk about juristics. THey should keep their money and allowed to play as long as they where not caught.

But from the moralic standpoint they players have to regain the fans trust. They should start a programm where they show that they are clean. Like a anti_doping passport which proves that you had ten unanounced training controlls.

THen those players would hold this passport into the camera and asks his opponent to show his passport. This would put pressure on the players who don't have it. Companies might think about only sign players who participate in this programm.

I think this is fair enough, isn't it?

[omg]

A few things:

1. Do you think that the people posting on here are going to have any sustainable effect on these players' careers or reputations? I think you are overstating the influence of a online baseball posting site. Nobody outside of this site pays attention or cares about what we write.

2. I hate that it is guilty until proven innocent as much as anyone else, HOWEVER, this is a culture the players have created. If players would come out and admit their wrongdoing flat out, right now, this wouldn't happen. Unfortunately that is not the case, and I'm afraid that other players names will continue to come out.

3. Back to the careers and reputations...if the guys are still getting paid, do you think they care about their reputations? Clemens, Bonds, Giambi, A-Rod, Canseco, McGwire, Sosa...they have made over a BILLION dollars combined in their careers. Are we supposed to feel sorry for them? Can you name another profession where you can cheat to get paid the most and not have it effect your bank account? Does that upset you?

4. As far as going public with these opinions, we are not putting these guys on trial, we are merely using stats and photos to question if their careers have been clean. We are not charging them with anything, we are merely questioning it. For the sake of the game and their careers I hope I am wrong about my suspicions, but I have been around the game too long to deny it. I do not wish for them to do jail time for merely using PED's; I just want them to admit that their careers were enhanced by this stuff, or provide rock solid evidence that they didn't use.

5. I wouldn't like it at all if people went public about my career and reputation, but being that this is baseball, I dare anyone to question if I was clean or not. I wouldn't have started this thread if I didn't feel confident in my suspicions, suspicions that I'm positive thousands have about guys.

To me it is similar to the O.J. Simpson trial. He was acquitted of murder, but how many people really felt that he didn't do it? While the ramifications are not nearly as bad, PED use in baseball has gone unspoken for too long.

Again, I feel that any fan who contributes to contracts that may have been earned with PED use deserves the right to know if the players are clean or not.

I respect and understand your points but I disagree. Amnesty is the way to go and severe penalties from here on out. Many decent, damn good people got sucked into this. The money-making media,the money-making owners, and power hungry politicians are more at fault but they are beyond redemption. The argument goes, what about the children who look up to these players? Well, what good does it do to publicly report the information to begin with? None-except to make money and advance careers.

[highpockets]

.....
4. As far as going public with these opinions, we are not putting these guys on trial, we are merely using stats and photos to question if their careers have been clean. We are not charging them with anything, we are merely questioning it.

Obvious juicer: If the biceps don't give it away, look at that head! Went from 13 HR in '28 to 33 in '29 and 58 in '32.

[Deemax]

Non-juicers

Will Clark
Don Mattingly
George Brett
John Olerud

[tominct]

i really, REALLY hope Holliday isent using


Dude...look at him. If it aint juice, it's hgh, it's something.

[tominct]

The season of 8 came in 101 games. Not At bats.

And, this guy had 152 HR's in his first FIVE years in the bigs....from 61-66 he AVERAGED 43.83. This from a guy who was listed at 5'11.

Who was this guy?
http://ccww.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/willie_mays_front.jpg

OK, ya got me, but I still think Biggio used.

[tominct]

I would hate to find out he did but with a guy that would sell his soul to stretch a double into a triple it easy to suspect he might take every advantage available. But God I hope not.

Dude, I LOVE Biggio as a player, love him. Who wouldn't? I would take a team of Biggio's any day and win tons of games at any level and have the time of my life.

But it's just that attitude, the need to be the very best, and his having to overcome his size, that could get him to using. I hate to see people fault him for that. He busted his ass everynight for you, gave you, as a fan, everything he had. He entertained you to no end, and got took your franchise to the playoffs a few times. It his JOB to be one of the best baseball players on the planet, and And he was.

Notice, I will point out what I think is the obvious, but I don't judge these guys.

[tominct]

I respect and understand your points but I disagree. Amnesty is the way to go and severe penalties from here on out. Many decent, damn good people got sucked into this. The money-making media,the money-making owners, and power hungry politicians are more at fault but they are beyond redemption. The argument goes, what about the children who look up to these players? Well, what good does it do to publicly report the information to begin with? None-except to make money and advance careers.

What we are talking about here is hurt feelings, I mean come on! Some people out there have their feelings hurt because some baseball record has been broken by someone who used modern science to augment virtually super-human baseball skill and unsurpased effort. They argue that it is cheating because some other players chose to NOT use certain modern science advances to augment their virtually superhuman skill and unsurpased effort.

So what if everyone was allowed to do whatever they wanted to do...and we shut up about it? Our kids would never know that their heroes had flaws! That seems to be what everyone wants...FLAWLESS HEROES....

HELLO, McFLY, THERE IS NO SUCH THING!!!!

"The only crime, is it's a crime!"

It's like pot, we make it illegal so our kids wont do it, knowing adults do it all the time. So a celebrity, (or in pot's case a mother or father, or doctor, teacher, lawyer) has their reputation ruined, and maybe their careers ruined, when if it wasn't illegal for adults to do, our kids would never be the wiser.
Then they could really believe that pot smokers are bad, or that steroids don't work. This way we give them neither the truth, NOR the myth.

It's wrong.

[cubsphill]

Bagwell- forsure

Berkman- 50/50

but Biggio?


Biggio?


Berkman was not one of the killer b's. It was this guy:

http://www.astrosdaily.com/files/gallery/Bell_Derek_02.jpg

[azmatsfan]

http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/turns_out_craig_counsell:laugh

[highpockets]

Lifetime OPS+ of 161? 31 triples in '86? Are you kidding me?

[Deemax]

http://www.wisecamel.com/images/Sosa%20B%20and%20A%203.jpg

[tominct]

Guys like Biggio shouldn't be smeared out of ignorance.


Dude, I am probably the LEAST ignorant guy on this thread from what I can see. I made a statistical reference to illustrate Biggio's bigger numbers, but I watched him over the years, and it was his body that has me convinced, not his output.

And to me, it's not a smear. I think I have made that point entirely clear.

[tominct]

I know this is baseball forum (I dont know too much about the MLB:silent:). but in other sports...
-LeBron James- He was huge, like a man coming out of HS
-Byron Scott, He got big all of a sudden.shooting 3's and lifting weights are like oil and water..
-Kobe got big after LeBron came to the NBA, now he is a bit smaller.
-The Big Serena sister (tennis) she looks like a man
-Lance Armstrong....what are the odds of going to someone elses home and winning 7 freekin times. though his PED's are proly different then one ones used in baseball.
-These are just my opinion. I believe this stuff got started when my idol Magic Johnson got HIV. They can take steroids with HIV due to muscle atrophy. Soon after MJ got HIV he was still playing in the NBA and in one game he got so mad, MJ went up and chest bumped an official, that is very uncharacteristic of MJ. I believe it was riod rage taking over. Soon after MJ left, Bryon Scott got Huge..
-I think we even have to doubt Tiger Woods due to his historical wins in this era.
Just my opinion and may not be worth Bonds' piss.

If we are piling on, I know I was not the only person to hear the "Magic is gay" talk long before he tested HIV poisitve. Same with Alomar and now look. Of course, using steroids puts one is a higher risk for HIV too, what with needles and all.

[tominct]

When did this stop being America. You've been charged with murder. You weren't there where it happened. Are you guilty until your trial ends and you're proven innocent? Let's suspend the baseball season and throw them all in jail until they can prove their innocence. Maybe we need to start with rounding up all the Jews and Japanese. Am I hitting home yet?

TG, that's a silly analogy, and an unfortuante one to boot. There guys are ENTERTAINERS! Geez, get a grip. Tonight we will watch the Oscars and wonder...did she have Botox? Did she get implants? Is Mickey Rourke on the juice? (I have read where 75-80 percent of top hollywood actors are on hgh....not knowing exactly how such things are measured of course, should we give a crap?)

Let's gain some perspective. Comparing an innocent and perfectly constitionally protected exercise of free-speech to interning Japenese, or attempting to wipe out an entire nation of people is ridiculous.

[slugger33]

NOT using - Josh Hamilton
I don't believe this. The guy was away from the game for four years then comes to the majors, and almost wins MVP? Sound a little funny to me. If you look at him, his arms are huge, he is in great shape. When he was on cocaine, he probably wasn't eating properly.

[omg]

In the end, even if a player is juicing, I still understand why they did/do it. For all the mess that A-Rod has created, he still has a 9-digit bank account, and that's really the bottom line.

.

A-Rod (and Bonds and Sosa,etc.) did not do it for the money,imho. They were great players before, more or less. They did it because they wanted to be the best, win awards and championships,fame,etc. I mean Bonds looked at McGuire and Sosa and thought, "Damn. I'm better than those guys. That should be me-not them." I don't think money was the root cause.

I've seen this mentality in average joes as well. Must be human nature. Guys will abuse their arms just to win a meaningless game and take steroids-whatever they can get their hands on. And these guys get paid nada.

[omg]

I spit my coffee on that big papi comment..:nod:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=ortizda01

Sorry, he has all the signs. Check the hr stats.

And for his buddy,Manuel. Would a guy that slapped the crap out of a 60 year old equipment manger-over tickets-have ANY morals?

[omg]

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=ortizda01

Sorry, he has all the signs. Check the hr stats.

And for his buddy,Manuel. Would a guy that slapped the crap out of a 60 year old equipment manger-over tickets-have ANY morals?

Bet the house on this one.

[DGDGBD]

Darrell Strawberry later in his career

[DGDGBD]

I used to think that Jeter was in the "no way" category. I'm not saying that I highly suspect him, because I don't. But now, I don't think I can put any of today's stars into a "no way" category. Not with all of the revelations; not with hgh being out there; not with the lax testing. The more you think about it, with the huge dollars involved and competition factor, who wasn't juicing before 2004?

[Berkman#17]

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=ortizda01

Sorry, he has all the signs. Check the hr stats.

And for his buddy,Manuel. Would a guy that slapped the crap out of a 60 year old equipment manger-over tickets-have ANY morals?

Yes, check the stats. You'll see the power he had in the minors (seasons of 31 and 30 HR's).

Check the approach and swing he was forced into in Minnesota. Note the differences.

Check the approach and swing he had once he got to Boston and was told to "let it fly". Note the (massive) differences.

Check who was his protection in Minnesota and in Boston. Note the (massive) differences.

Check his book while we're at this too.

And Manny showed his talents and power from day 1. Absolutely no spikes anywhere in his career. Let me guess, you're gonna say the time he got into it with Youk was a sign of "roid rage" too. Too bad "roid rage" is a myth and does not exist.

[TG Coach]

TG, that's a silly analogy, and an unfortuante one to boot. There guys are ENTERTAINERS! Geez, get a grip. Tonight we will watch the Oscars and wonder...did she have Botox? Did she get implants? Is Mickey Rourke on the juice? (I have read where 75-80 percent of top hollywood actors are on hgh....not knowing exactly how such things are measured of course, should we give a crap?)

Let's gain some perspective. Comparing an innocent and perfectly constitionally protected exercise of free-speech to interning Japenese, or attempting to wipe out an entire nation of people is ridiculous.

Based on your reasoning it should be fine for baseball players to juice. They're just entertainers. I don't think there's a law against using Botox. I do think it's wrong to assume someone is guilty of breaking the law on nothing more than your gut feel. I'm out of the conversation.

[ssarge]

I do think it's wrong to assume someone is guilty of breaking the law on nothing more than your gut feel.

It is wrong if you are on a jury. That is the ONLY place that "innocent until proven guilty" is in play. Not even elsewhere in the judicial process (district attorneys make judgments about guilt all the time, before charges are even filed. That is what we pay them to do.)

It is a fact of everyday life otherwise. People form judgments about other people all of the time, in all kinds of areas. It is a defense mechanism, and it is useful and often appropriate.

And I think the reason people do it in THIS case is because they resent being played. People have a pretty good sense of what an athlete can accomplish in the gym, and when someone supersedes that by a large margin, and then lies about it - flaunts the public with it - it pisses people off. And when a 35 YO guy adds 30 lbs of rock-hard muscle in a year (after previously having lifted pretty religiously all of his life), looks like a coke machine with a head, shaves his now balding dome, and has acne on his back, then says "I am pure as the driven snow," it pisses ME off.

Making the judgments public is another matter, I suppose. Less appropriate. Goes with the territory, though, when you are in the public eye, and when evidence of your actions is reasonably compelling. It is what it is.

[korp]

A-Rod (and Bonds and Sosa,etc.) did not do it for the money,imho. They were great players before, more or less. They did it because they wanted to be the best, win awards and championships,fame,etc. I mean Bonds looked at McGuire and Sosa and thought, "Damn. I'm better than those guys. That should be me-not them." I don't think money was the root cause.

I've seen this mentality in average joes as well. Must be human nature. Guys will abuse their arms just to win a meaningless game and take steroids-whatever they can get their hands on. And these guys get paid nada.
Debatable if they were "great" without it. We have no real way of telling when they actually started using and I would say they were good obviously to make it into professional baseball but I would question the "great" mark.

Also ... John Cena ... yes I know is a huge wrestler possibly juicing ... but he did make a good point in an interview I saw. He said the penalty has to be extremely strict for people to not want to do it. If baseball players have it they get suspended, but if a normal person has steroids and is caught they are gonna see time behind bars. Obviously the penaltys in place are a start but are they strict enough?

[PhilliesPhan22]

What about the NFL? All of those guys are unnaturally large and defined.

[dominik]

The problem in baseball next to the fact that they are role models for kids and roid are a danger for their health(and even worse for the guys they are role models for) is that they betray other athletes. Maybe a juicer gets a contract that another clean player have gotten when he didn't juice(this is not true for bonds, mac and Arod who would have gotten big contracts too-maybe they where only the 3rd best hitter of their team instead of the best but they still where good players.

Also they can win awards and championships from clean players.

[cubsphill]

...this is not true for bonds, mac and Arod who would have gotten big contracts too-maybe they where only the 3rd best hitter of their team instead of the best but they still where good players.

...


no, theyre still the best.

[omg]

Yes, check the stats. You'll see the power he had in the minors (seasons of 31 and 30 HR's).

Check the approach and swing he was forced into in Minnesota. Note the differences.

Check the approach and swing he had once he got to Boston and was told to "let it fly". Note the (massive) differences.

Check who was his protection in Minnesota and in Boston. Note the (massive) differences.

Check his book while we're at this too.

And Manny showed his talents and power from day 1. Absolutely no spikes anywhere in his career. Let me guess, you're gonna say the time he got into it with Youk was a sign of "roid rage" too. Too bad "roid rage" is a myth and does not exist.

The pattern is: 1)unimpressive hr's, 2)impressive hr's , 3)unimpressive hr's plus injury...

B.Boone,Sosa, McGuire,Bonds,Anderson,Lefty Cf x of cardinals,Ortiz,Gonzalez,...

Isn't Minnesota an easy place for hr's? Can't remember if Ortiz was playing
in the Metrodome aka homerdome.

Manny (and Barry) were great from the gitgo. You may be right about no spikes but I say he should have been slipping. Anyways, I think Manny is a juicer. He is also the best hitter in baseball w or w/o hgh/steroids.

[tominct]

The problem in baseball next to the fact that they are role models for kids and roid are a danger for their health(and even worse for the guys they are role models for) is that they betray other athletes. Maybe a juicer gets a contract that another clean player have gotten when he didn't juice(this is not true for bonds, mac and Arod who would have gotten big contracts too-maybe they where only the 3rd best hitter of their team instead of the best but they still where good players.

Also they can win awards and championships from clean players.

To everything in life, there is a price to pay. If you want to be a pro baseball player, and you are good enough to accomplish that without the juice great. But, how bad do you want it?

I could have been a lawyer, I am sure of it. I would have had to go to law school though, and I wasn't willing to pay that price, literally, or figuratively. I guess one could have said that the stress of law school would have been more damaging to my health then the steroids are to the players taking them, but that's another debate altogether. But in the final analysis, I did not go to law school, and now I don't make lawyer money, my wife has to work, I have a small house and only two cars, neither of which is a Mercedes, and I don't get to sign my name "esquire."

Some quit minor league ball because they get hit in the head with a 90mph and they get scared, some don't like being around so many foreigners, some fall in love and allow their girlfriends to pressure them into giving up the "pipe-dream" oters get homesick, others aren't good enough, and others aren't good enough and refuse to juice.

Some make it. Of those, some aren't good and choose to juice and risk getting caught and suspended. Some are good enough to make it clean. But the fact remains the same, whatever you want in life you must be prepared to pay the same price, or even a higher price than others are willing to pay. However, the fact that there are substances that cannot be detected really renders this whole discussion silly.

As for it being illegal, nothing, and I do mean nothing, could be more silly in this conversation. Our laws regarding the myraid of substances that can cause health issues are so ridiculuously inconsistent it is laughable. Some of the most damaging substances known to human existence are legal. Alcohol, cigarettes, to name two, are legal because there exist powerful lobbies in the states and in Washington ensuring their permanence. Other substances are illegal, and simply to advocate for decriminalization can get someone into trouble. Please, please please, don't make the "illegal" argument. It holds no more water than a dish drainer. If we were all so concerned with not breaking the law, we'd all still be British!

[cubsphill]

It amuses me how frequently people misspell Mark McGwire's last name.

[Knights Baseball]

I have always looked at it like this. Playing baseball is the players job, how they make money, basically their life line. Some can't do anything else because they have always played ball. Baseball players see that the players juicing have giant numbers which lead to giant contacts which leads to an easier life without money trouble after baseball. I would be willing to bet that most players taking steroids do not even do any research about how bad they can be for you. All players are looking for any advantage that can make them better and steroids is one of them. This is why I feel that just about every baseball player has atleast tried them to see if steroids can give them more of an edge. After all, if you are great, maybe steroids can make you elite. If you are good, maybe they can make you great. And wasn't there a survey a couple of years ago that asked professional athletes if they could take a pill that would make them one of the greats in their sports but killed them a few years later, would they still take it and like 80% said yes. I feel that that proves this is not just baseball, but every sport. It wouldn't suprise me if 100% of football players were on them.

[Berkman#17]

The pattern is: 1)unimpressive hr's, 2)impressive hr's , 3)unimpressive hr's plus injury...

B.Boone,Sosa, McGuire,Bonds,Anderson,Lefty Cf x of cardinals,Ortiz,Gonzalez,...

Isn't Minnesota an easy place for hr's? Can't remember if Ortiz was playing
in the Metrodome aka homerdome.

Manny (and Barry) were great from the gitgo. You may be right about no spikes but I say he should have been slipping. Anyways, I think Manny is a juicer. He is also the best hitter in baseball w or w/o hgh/steroids.

31HR's at age 21 is "unimpressive"? Really?

It's good to see you are taking the easy way out, just like too many others are. "But but but look at his numbers!" Yeah, look at how the Twins held him back at the plate too. Look at the differences in his swing. Check his quotes about it; this is all well documented. I guess trying to find full clarity of situations doesn't exist anymore. If it looks like a mallard and quacks like a mallard, then it must be a duck; I guess. Because we all know all these players are exactly the same, and their situations are exactly the same.

And what, are you saying his injury last year was due to steroids? A tendon sheath in his wrist? Come on. Did you watch him swing it on the first day of camp this year? I'll give you a hint about it, he isn't holding back due to his wrist anymore. Large Father is letting it fly again. (If you notice, his numbers drop in the times he can't let it fly, I.E. Minnesota and injured wrist in 08).

Manny should have been slipping? Again, not all players are exactly the same and age like limburger. Some actually can age like a nice Merlot. Ol' Teddy Ballgame hit .388 at age 38. Put up a 1.096 OPS at age 41. I wonder how he did that? Can you give one, just one, good reason why Manny is a juicer? Other than throwing any and everyone under the bus without much to back it up?

[Knights Baseball]

McGwire doesn't fall into the unimpressive category either. He hit 49 in his rookie season, 1987. May have broken 50 if he hadnt taken time off for his son's birth. I also think that if Pujols age is what he says it is and if he stays health, the best hitter debate will be squashed.

[stl002]

i sure hope david wright isn't on steriods

[omg]

31HR's at age 21 is "unimpressive"? Really?

It's good to see you are taking the easy way out, just like too many others are. "But but but look at his numbers!" Yeah, look at how the Twins held him back at the plate too. Look at the differences in his swing. Check his quotes about it; this is all well documented. I guess trying to find full clarity of situations doesn't exist anymore. If it looks like a mallard and quacks like a mallard, then it must be a duck; I guess. Because we all know all these players are exactly the same, and their situations are exactly the same.

And what, are you saying his injury last year was due to steroids? A tendon sheath in his wrist? Come on. Did you watch him swing it on the first day of camp this year? I'll give you a hint about it, he isn't holding back due to his wrist anymore. Large Father is letting it fly again. (If you notice, his numbers drop in the times he can't let it fly, I.E. Minnesota and injured wrist in 08).

Manny should have been slipping? Again, not all players are exactly the same and age like limburger. Some actually can age like a nice Merlot. Ol' Teddy Ballgame hit .388 at age 38. Put up a 1.096 OPS at age 41. I wonder how he did that? Can you give one, just one, good reason why Manny is a juicer? Other than throwing any and everyone under the bus without much to back it up?

Well, lookie,lookie. The man must of known we were talking about him.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-22-base-bitsfeb22,0,5994808.story

I'm not saying Ortiz is not a good player just like I wouldn't say Bonds is not a good player. They're both damn good.Arod ,too,.

Ortiz hit those 31 hr's in the minors at Salt Lake City which is an easy place to hit hr's because of the light air (I played there and the ball just keeps going).

[omg]

McGwire doesn't fall into the unimpressive category either. He hit 49 in his rookie season, 1987. May have broken 50 if he hadnt taken time off for his son's birth. I also think that if Pujols age is what he says it is and if he stays health, the best hitter debate will be squashed.

McGwire was a hell of a player but in the time before he hit the steroids he was struggling

[Knights Baseball]

Yeah, i agree with that. His brother said he started taking them in 1994 and i am guessing that it was late 1994 if that is true. Hit hit 18 hr in 1993 and 1994 combined but he also only played in 74 games.

[conky149er]

I don't believe this. The guy was away from the game for four years then comes to the majors, and almost wins MVP? Sound a little funny to me. If you look at him, his arms are huge, he is in great shape. When he was on cocaine, he probably wasn't eating properly.

i totaly agree, i think he is using also

[cablmarlin10]

The talk of PED's is very vague when mentioned in the context of size and power. It is well known that the range of what is considered "normal" testosterone levels is very wide. Obviously the guys on the upper spectrum where the easy gainers and more masculine looking during and after adolescence. If a guy in his twenties puts on 20+ pounds of lean muscle in a short period of time, it is easy to conclude he is using anabolics or HGH. Anabolic steroids are synthetic forms of testosterone with some leaning more towards androgenic properties vs. anabolic. When a guy (who has already gone through his major growth spert shows sudden signs of increased vascularity in his 20's-30's, it is very obvious what he's done.

These substances saw a major increase in popularity in the late 80's and early nineties even at the high school level.

The shame is, that it is perceived as a necessary evil to compete at any level of sport certainly football. It has just now come to light in sports not normally linked to such things like baseball. The Olympics have been fighting this problem for decades.

Bonds was and is one of the best hitters to ever play the game. Steroids do nothing to help hand eye coordination but will help re cooperative powers and the ability to add lean muscle therefore power. Everything he did in his career prior to using is "washed away" by the fact that he has obviously used to offset the normal testosterone levels falling as you enter your 30's. When a professional trainer introduces you to these things and you find out just how well they work, it is like any other drug and can become an addiction.(if a little is good then a lot must be better mentality). Do not be naive and think that guys at this level of play don't know exactly what they are doing, and for what. Yes, masking agents do exist and yes, some of these compounds are short lived in the human body as not to be detected by urine or blood analysis.

The only true way to level the playing field would be to test everybody, every week which is obviously cost prohibitive.

Training methods and nutrition are better now than they were thirty years ago but for the people who have been around athletics, gyms, professional trainers know who is and who isn't with relative certainty.

[Deemax]

Steroids do nothing to help hand eye coordination but will help re cooperative powers and the ability to add lean muscle therefore power.

Steroids can add strength and speed. Both of these play a role in hand eye coordination....IMO

[omg]

http://media.photobucket.com/image/manny%20ramirez/greengrizzle/baseball%20base%20and%20numbered/img095.jpg?o=38

[LAball]

Steroids can add strength and speed. Both of these play a role in hand eye coordination....IMO


Swinging a super light bat adds to coordination, which is what happens with you swing a regular bat with super muscles.

[Knights Baseball]

HGH has been shown to give people who use it sharper vision. I believe better vision would def. help hand-eye coordination

[Berkman#17]

http://media.photobucket.com/image/manny%20ramirez/greengrizzle/baseball%20base%20and%20numbered/img095.jpg?o=38

Sorry but this is a truly pathetic effort on your part. One card is from 1991. When he was the ripe old age of 18. So he wasn't packing as much muscle as he was when he was 25, or 30. Oh my god what unprecedence.

A guy has more muscle at 30 than when he was 18! He's gotta be roiding out of his mind! Because that is the only way guys can build muscle! Steroids!

Can you find something that actually points to Manny doing steroids? Because right now you are smearing the guy just to do it. You have zero facts. No huge changes in numbers, no physical evidence, no massive changes in appearance, nothing. I'd quit while you're still ahead.....at least a little bit.

[cubsphill]

...
A guy has more muscle at 30 than when he was 18! He's gotta be roiding out of his mind! Because that is the only way guys can build muscle! Steroids!

...

Didn't anyone tell you? It's impossible to gain more muscle mass once you sign a contract. :highfive:

[Berkman#17]

And if by some odd chance that you do, it is due to one thing and one thing only.

Steroids.

[cubsphill]

And if by some odd chance that you do, it is due to one thing and one thing only.

Steroids.

And the only evidence necessary is a comparison of the player's rookie card that came out 10+ years ago and a recent photo.

[cablmarlin10]

Swinging a super light bat adds to coordination, which is what happens with you swing a regular bat with super muscles.



Coordination is athleticism isn't it?? A light bat may make you swing it faster but does it have anything to do with when you start your swing? Or the load phase of hitting? Swing plane? Some of the greatest hitters in history were wirey little guys.

I would argue that these guys are all pretty coordinated when they are drafted out of high school/college! I will admit that if you are stronger and more confident, mis-hits will turn into home runs.

You can see a distinct difference in who is dabbling in HGH......Skelatal features begin to be more pronounced.....brow line, cheek bones etc...

Manny, in my opinion has not taken anything. The guy has been a phenom since he was a little kid.....6' 200 pounds is not huge.....David Wright is another guy who is not very big for his production. Jeter is tall and lanky like Rios....non users IMO

If shear size and strength were the only thing needed, Frank Thomas should have hit 70 home runs every year. The guy is built like an NFL lineman....6'5" what? 275!

[Mariners_swe]

People, just because a player is bigger 10 years later in the majors it doesn't mean juice...

http://kermittheblog.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/barry_bonds.jpg

http://images.wikio.com/images/p/39c1/barry-bonds-case-could-hinge-on-a-single-word-knowingly.jpg

Just look at those pictures (I know Barry is a very bad example) it's like 20 years between those pictures and I'm just saying it's possible to build muscle w/o juice too..

[korp]

People, just because a player is bigger 10 years later in the majors it doesn't mean juice...

http://kermittheblog.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/barry_bonds.jpg

http://images.wikio.com/images/p/39c1/barry-bonds-case-could-hinge-on-a-single-word-knowingly.jpg

Just look at those pictures (I know Barry is a very bad example) it's like 20 years between those pictures and I'm just saying it's possible to build muscle w/o juice too..
Thats not the pic people compare him to.

http://r_harrison.tripod.com/Agonist/BarryBonds.jpg

From baseball player ..... to linebacker.

[Berkman#17]

Also from 22-23 years old to 35-36 years old.

Lets say a player weighs 190 lbs as a 20 year old. 210 at a 30 year old. Do people not understand that the average weight gained is 2 pounds per year? Average working adults do more than that without even lifting. Yet if a baseball player even hints at a weight gain over a prolonged period, then it just has to be steroids, no question about it.

Francoeur put on 17 pounds before last season, Hanley put on 24 this offseason. Uh oh, those guys have to be JACKED! I mean they put on more weight in short periods than other unrightfully accused users do in 10+ years. There simply can be no other way!

I mean, unless you completely ignore the fact that these guys are the best athletes in their sport and have genetic advantages that normal human beings could only dream of having. When you have the natural skills to play Major League Baseball, it isn't because you are Joe Schmoe. You are the 1% of the 1%. These guys look at a weight and get stronger.

[omg]

Also from 22-23 years old to 35-36 years old.

Lets say a player weighs 190 lbs as a 20 year old. 210 at a 30 year old. Do people not understand that the average weight gained is 2 pounds per year? Average working adults do more than that without even lifting. Yet if a baseball player even hints at a weight gain over a prolonged period, then it just has to be steroids, no question about it.

Francoeur put on 17 pounds before last season, Hanley put on 24 this offseason. Uh oh, those guys have to be JACKED! I mean they put on more weight in short periods than other unrightfully accused users do in 10+ years. There simply can be no other way!

I mean, unless you completely ignore the fact that these guys are the best athletes in their sport and have genetic advantages that normal human beings could only dream of having. When you have the natural skills to play Major League Baseball, it isn't because you are Joe Schmoe. You are the 1% of the 1%. These guys look at a weight and get stronger.

I agree with you and you make good points above. Definitely, the more gifted the more improvement is possible.

And you are right regarding some of my comments on Manny. And the pictures don't by themselves prove anything.

All I have is a gut feeling and although he has denied taking steroids he would not know whether he has ever taken them or not. Truly, he thought steroid testing meant that he would have to take steroids as a test to see if they worked on him.

As for ortiz, 31 hr's is good at 21 yo in the minors but it is not out of the ordinary.

[Berkman#17]

I agree with you and you make good points above. Definitely, the more gifted the more improvement is possible.

And you are right regarding some of my comments on Manny. And the pictures don't by themselves prove anything.

All I have is a gut feeling and although he has denied taking steroids he would not know whether he has ever taken them or not. Truly, he thought steroid testing meant that he would have to take steroids as a test to see if they worked on him.

As for ortiz, 31 hr's is good at 21 yo in the minors but it is not out of the ordinary.

He would not know? I usually know when I get injections from a doctor. The pain tells me a needle is in there.

So if 31 is not out of the ordinary, then why would him doing that later in his career be a red flag? That doesn't make sense. He proved he had power at a very young age. Then he was held back. Then he was allowed to let if fly again, and he showed that he still had the power. Nothing in there points to a spike created by an unnatural source. He had the power, and he showed the power. Why think that it came from somewhere else?

[dominik]

The talk of PED's is very vague when mentioned in the context of size and power. It is well known that the range of what is considered "normal" testosterone levels is very wide. Obviously the guys on the upper spectrum where the easy gainers and more masculine looking during and after adolescence. If a guy in his twenties puts on 20+ pounds of lean muscle in a short period of time, it is easy to conclude he is using anabolics or HGH. Anabolic steroids are synthetic forms of testosterone with some leaning more towards androgenic properties vs. anabolic. When a guy (who has already gone through his major growth spert shows sudden signs of increased vascularity in his 20's-30's, it is very obvious what he's done.

These substances saw a major increase in popularity in the late 80's and early nineties even at the high school level.

The shame is, that it is perceived as a necessary evil to compete at any level of sport certainly football. It has just now come to light in sports not normally linked to such things like baseball. The Olympics have been fighting this problem for decades.

Bonds was and is one of the best hitters to ever play the game. Steroids do nothing to help hand eye coordination but will help re cooperative powers and the ability to add lean muscle therefore power. Everything he did in his career prior to using is "washed away" by the fact that he has obviously used to offset the normal testosterone levels falling as you enter your 30's. When a professional trainer introduces you to these things and you find out just how well they work, it is like any other drug and can become an addiction.(if a little is good then a lot must be better mentality). Do not be naive and think that guys at this level of play don't know exactly what they are doing, and for what. Yes, masking agents do exist and yes, some of these compounds are short lived in the human body as not to be detected by urine or blood analysis.

The only true way to level the playing field would be to test everybody, every week which is obviously cost prohibitive.

Training methods and nutrition are better now than they were thirty years ago but for the people who have been around athletics, gyms, professional trainers know who is and who isn't with relative certainty.

I agree with your point. Those are great athletes whatever they take and it's a shame that clean athletes are also suspected and not respected.

But athletes digged their own grave in the last decades by their massive abuse. Now of course fans are overly critical about their players and fast with accusing players.

As I said before it's now on the players and the organisations to reinstall the faith in them. This will take long years of hard anti doping work. We can't have 40 years of doping(all sports not just baseball) and expect the fans to trust again after some years of testing. This will take much more years of much more serious work and testing than now.

Is it fair that innocent athletes are blamed? No it's not but it is just the price they have to pay for their ancestors mistakes. It's the same with our kids who will have to pay for our wasting the planet and climate. They are also innocent but the will have to deal with it, the same goes for future athletes.
Doping is the global warming of sports:)

[Mariners_swe]

Thats not the pic people compare him to.

http://r_harrison.tripod.com/Agonist/BarryBonds.jpg

From baseball player ..... to linebacker.

But still, it's like 20 years between the pics.. It's possible to build and gain muscle without juice..

[cablmarlin10]

But still, it's like 20 years between the pics.. It's possible to build and gain muscle without juice..

You are right. It is possible to gain muscle without juice but with all due respect, I don't think you have spent very much time in any gym where elite athletes train as I have for 23yrs. I have witnessed first hand what goes on at high level athletic training facilities.

You cannot have a tight skinned/pumped look (when you are not in the midst of a workout) without testosterone levels being through the roof. You all have seen the guys as they mature who are "easy" gainers. Yes genetics plays a big part but I will contend that you cannot make the types of gains seen in some of these athletes without help. Steroids....anabolic not cortico don't get the two confused....are prescribed for cancer patients, post severe trauma, ED, and other things. The levels that elite athletes take are many times more than what would ever be prescribed by a DR. regardless of the situation......This is fact not conjecture.

[slugger33]

You cannot have a tight skinned/pumped look (when you are not in the midst of a workout) without testosterone levels being through the roof.

Is this a joke? Google Jamie Eason.

[cablmarlin10]

Is this a joke? Google Jamie Eason.

Jamie Eason is certainly no joke!! But come on man, lean, in shape, vascular, yes, but tiny like Lance Armstrong not 240 pound Barry Bonds!

[cablmarlin10]

Is this a joke? Google Jamie Eason.

Oh and didn't you know those photos are all taken after push ups,crunches etc... Like body builder photo shoots.....taken within three days of the show-peak condition!

[jcwilb]

Maybe steroids don't help as much as you think...

See Attachment

[slugger33]

Jamie Eason is certainly no joke!! But come on man, lean, in shape, vascular, yes, but tiny like Lance Armstrong not 240 pound Barry Bonds!She is tight skinned, and looks pumped. Her testosterone levels are certainly not "through the roof." The body Bonds has in that picture can be achieved naturally. Not in the time it took him while on 'roids, but it CAN be acheived without the use of anabolic steroids.

[Mariners_swe]

You are right. It is possible to gain muscle without juice but with all due respect, I don't think you have spent very much time in any gym where elite athletes train as I have for 23yrs. I have witnessed first hand what goes on at high level athletic training facilities.

You cannot have a tight skinned/pumped look (when you are not in the midst of a workout) without testosterone levels being through the roof. You all have seen the guys as they mature who are "easy" gainers. Yes genetics plays a big part but I will contend that you cannot make the types of gains seen in some of these athletes without help. Steroids....anabolic not cortico don't get the two confused....are prescribed for cancer patients, post severe trauma, ED, and other things. The levels that elite athletes take are many times more than what would ever be prescribed by a DR. regardless of the situation......This is fact not conjecture.

No I haven't spent time in a gym with elite athletes, but I've been training for about 3 years and gained a lot of muscles and strenght, without the juice.. I'm just saying that it's possible to gain without it and that not everyone who's bigger now than 10-20 years ago is using.

[cablmarlin10]

She is tight skinned, and looks pumped. Her testosterone levels are certainly not "through the roof." The body Bonds has in that picture can be achieved naturally. Not in the time it took him while on 'roids, but it CAN be acheived without the use of anabolic steroids.

She is lean. The only thing "pumped" on her are her implants! Seriously, I guarantee her levels are on the extreme high end of what may be considered normal but then again, I haven't heard her talk. She may sound like Barry White!

We could debate who is or isn't for weeks. The context in which we are talking about is the dramatic changes in short periods of time. These guys have the very best training methods, supplements, and facilities at their disposal certainly since entering the major's if not in single A ball. Since the dawn of sport, man has been looking for advantages against his competition. I doubt that any man in his late twenties-thirties "just discovers" the weight room and realizes the gains he may have made while a growing teenager especially since they are supposed to be in the best possible shape all the time.

Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Giambi, Arod......too much too fast. I told people years ago that Arod would be caught! I should have put money on it!

[AltaLomaStorm]

Evidence Bonds did not use...

The reported benefits of hGH include: ...strengthening connective tissue which reduces the probability of injury, weight loss without any loss in lean mass, reduction of wrinkles by rejuvenating the skin, increasing energy levels and brightening mood, promotion of muscle growth...

Anyone can testify ole Barry NEVER exhibited THAT trait (commonly associated with HGH use)...case dismissed.

On the other hand, he might have trouble explaining why his hat size increased AFTER shaving his melon and his shoe size increased from a 10 1/2 to 13...

One of the most common side effects of hGH misuse is acromegaly. The onset of this disorder begins with an overgrowth of bone and connective tissue that leads to a change in facial appearance, such as a protruding jaw and eyebrow bones. Acromegaly can also lead to abnormal growth of the hands and feet,and a shortened life expectancy

[Knights Baseball]

Someone gaining that kind of weight is not unheard of. I mean, in college we had a shortstop that came from Bronx, NY. He was a 6'1 stick like 155 when he got there. He was 175 in Feb. He had never lifted or done the plyo's, agilities, etc. The training along with the constant nutrition from the school cafe helped him a ton. This is the same life that Manny came from, so I can believe that Manny naturally got his body, esp. since I don't remember a huge weight fluctuation. Having said that, I find it very suspect that a grown man who has been lifting and training for year can add 25 pounds of rip just by changing around his workout. With Bond's personality, I believe the book when it said that he saw McGwire and Sosa getting so much attention that no one notice his close to mvp year. He couldnt take it and showed up 25 pounds heavier in feb of 99. I always figured with the attitude he always had, he would have been like " Yeah I did steroids, What? but instead he is going to jail for lying. I think that it would be the funniest thing i have ever seen if Barry walked in court weighing a cool 160

[bronxkid]

Brett Boone, from Utility guy to Popeye in a span of one year, look up the numbers.

Jay Payton

Marcus Giles and his older Broham Brian. Known since H.S. to dabble in PED's.

Brady Anderson, no brainer.

Pudge Rodriguez and Juan Gonzalez. Pudge lost like 20 lbs over one season, says he lost the weight but his whole body shrunk.

Dayum , pretty much anyone that Canseco played with may be tainted.

Countless of Relief pitchers that we don't even know about.

Agree with Gonzalez in Arizona, his arms are roided out, looks like he can hang with the guys on the cover of Muscle and Fitness.

I may have to add Beltre and Andrew Jones now. Also the year that Javy Lopez had a monster year before signing that huge deal to go to Baltimore. Only to lost about 15 lbs and fizzle out.

I am really hoping Pujols and several others are clean. It is just a shame that the majority of guys who got 50 homers in that era was juicing.

http://cdn.faniq.com/images/blog/Brett%20Boone.jpg After

[hawkiirock]

very likely he has used. Might not still be using. NOT using - Josh Hamilton

[hawkiirock]

the tests can be beat and afaik still don't test for HGH. Major sports aas testing is a joke. They just say enough to fool the average fan into thinking they are making it tough to cheatIf your source is right, we will all know shortly... I think he is still subject to testing based on previous positive tests.

I hope he's clean.

[hawkiirock]

That can be beat as well although I highly doubt he is going to that extreme. Never know thoughTaken from a June 2008 SI article - Every third day Hamilton provides a urine sample to a lab technician at the ballpark. "If I miss a third day, I'm tested two days in a row," says Hamilton. "I'll do it until MLB says I don't have to anymore."

Now, I don't know this for a fact, but I would venture to say:
1. He is still being tested by MLB
2. MLB (or whatever lab they contract with) tests for any/every substance they have banned - which includes dope and PED's.

For him to be using, MLB would have to be involved in keeping it secret (knowing full well their secret will eventually be exposed). Why risk another black eye?

I sure hope he is not using.

[hawkiirock]

why? B/c he is fat? Papi... I think not

[hawkiirock]

although I agree that Griffy is/was clean your reasoning is false. Many steroids actually increase your risk of injury. All depends on what compound is used. A couple of the most popular steroid will increase injury risk. A couple of the steroids that acually help lubricate the joints aren't used b/c their half lives are so long it is easy to get caught with

I know a lot of guys who use/ used steroids and am in awe at how little is known about them. For a subject that is talked about so much it is crazy ho uninformed people are. I think it would safe to say all of those guys are clean. Griffy struggled too much with staying healthy to be juicing.
BTW, I think you would have to add Mattingly to your list. That's sad when it's harder to come up with names of players that you don't think were juicing.

[hawkiirock]

lol

So test in spring training, AS break, and Mid sept haha. What good would that do?

If I know I am getting tested in sept and March that gives me Oct- February to juice freely. Than you have april - June. and july- sept lol. Wow some of the idea are funny.

Especially when the common steroid cycle is 8-10 weeks in duration unless you are a body builder. Many of them stay on year round. Your idea would be PERFECT for MLB b/c it would make uneducated fans 99% think they have stringent testingI don't think it's fair for any poster to be the thought police and provide conjecture on who might be using. What if someone posted you have the look in your eye of a wife beater and asked who agrees?

I'd like to see MLB toss out all the evidence and provide amnesty for the period of time it takes a body to clean up. Then start testing everyone with a "one and done" rule. Any player caught would be suspended for the remainder of a season and all of the following season. Test in spring training, all-star break and mid September for any players on contending teams. And test for everything. Keep the inventors of new drugs on the run.

[hawkiirock]

LOL! this takes the cake! You think steroid users share pins? You need to do some research b/c that is absurd and only somebody in a closet would think that.

Do you realize pins only cost a few cents each? They don't reuse their own let alone share. You also realize a lot of guys don't like needles so they take steroid PILLS. YOu do know this right? I think I am assuming an awful lot

I guess diabetics are at high risk of aids as well b/c of their slin injections:laughIf we are piling on, I know I was not the only person to hear the "Magic is gay" talk long before he tested HIV poisitve. Same with Alomar and now look. Of course, using steroids puts one is a higher risk for HIV too, what with needles and all.

[hawkiirock]

very good one and I agree


Mine that hasn't been mentioned that I am sure of is Marcus Giles. Javy lopez was a good one as well


Also of note is the time when many steroids were purchased were win teams played at San Diego. They could run across the border.


A few years ago U.S made a sweep with Mexico and busted a ton of mexican sources. Slowed the supply for just a bit but china and European nations took over. Steroids were never easier to get and never been cheaper UNTIL china started cooperating while kissing butt for the olympics.

This caused a backlash with ORD and made steroids harder to get a hold of. Many athletes were getting prescriptions from their docs so then they were legal and they would even order international since their scrip allowed them to possess
Now many sources are underground. You can still get them in a matter of 2-3 days but you have to know somebody that has been around a bit. Many of the gym sellers are selling more fake crap and homebrew is very popular as well

ORD did put a damper on home brew though bc the powders were coming from china. Now it normally entails shipping to 2 different countries just to get it here.

Not sure why the gov is so concerned with this when really it is none of their business. Just something to take attention off of how horrible they are doing. JMO of course Darrell Strawberry later in his career

[hawkiirock]

also some reports show HGH improving eye sight. Would definitely help at any age but even more so if you are approaching 40. Not to mention the strength gains and how joint friendly it is.Steroids can add strength and speed. Both of these play a role in hand eye coordination....IMO

[hawkiirock]

WHy did his head grow? can't wait for this answer. I have a tiny head and need Bonds workout and diet regime so I can get my head proportinal to my body :laughAlso from 22-23 years old to 35-36 years old.

Lets say a player weighs 190 lbs as a 20 year old. 210 at a 30 year old. Do people not understand that the average weight gained is 2 pounds per year? Average working adults do more than that without even lifting. Yet if a baseball player even hints at a weight gain over a prolonged period, then it just has to be steroids, no question about it.

Francoeur put on 17 pounds before last season, Hanley put on 24 this offseason. Uh oh, those guys have to be JACKED! I mean they put on more weight in short periods than other unrightfully accused users do in 10+ years. There simply can be no other way!

I mean, unless you completely ignore the fact that these guys are the best athletes in their sport and have genetic advantages that normal human beings could only dream of having. When you have the natural skills to play Major League Baseball, it isn't because you are Joe Schmoe. You are the 1% of the 1%. These guys look at a weight and get stronger.

[korp]

Also from 22-23 years old to 35-36 years old.

Lets say a player weighs 190 lbs as a 20 year old. 210 at a 30 year old. Do people not understand that the average weight gained is 2 pounds per year? Average working adults do more than that without even lifting. Yet if a baseball player even hints at a weight gain over a prolonged period, then it just has to be steroids, no question about it.

Francoeur put on 17 pounds before last season, Hanley put on 24 this offseason. Uh oh, those guys have to be JACKED! I mean they put on more weight in short periods than other unrightfully accused users do in 10+ years. There simply can be no other way!
Yes it is possible to gain weight over years. The main thing is bodyfat and strength to weight ratios. When you pack on that kind of weight especially with the short off seasons in pro sports and maintain or lower your body fat while still getting alot stronger thats not normal. In 4 months (oct -feb), if you put on 17lb, already had a lower bf %, and come in with a lower bf thats not normal. I'm not saying thats what he did (I love the Braves) but essentially thats what the PED users did.

although I agree that Griffy is/was clean your reasoning is false. Many steroids actually increase your risk of injury. All depends on what compound is used. A couple of the most popular steroid will increase injury risk. A couple of the steroids that acually help lubricate the joints aren't used b/c their half lives are so long it is easy to get caught with

I know a lot of guys who use/ used steroids and am in awe at how little is known about them. For a subject that is talked about so much it is crazy ho uninformed people are.
I would say the risk of injury is because how strong and big they can make you. It would really amplify any muscular imbalances present, created by sport or by training methods.

LOL! this takes the cake! You think steroid users share pins? You need to do some research b/c that is absurd and only somebody in a closet would think that.
Yup no way they share needles lol that would just be stupid.

I know one thing about all of this though. If I were one of these truly clean players out there, I would feel pretty darn GOOD knowing that I was able to still get into the pro's regardless of the massive amount of PED users.

[hawkiirock]

Korp, yep the guys who are truly clean should feel great about themselves.

As for injuries there are two parts. one part is strength increases can happen so fast that tendons and ligaments cant keep up. The second part is the quality of tissue laid down. Some compounds are known to form a more brittle matrix. Others are known to actually lubricate and form a better matrix

An example would be deca. It is known to lubricate and be very injury and joint friendly. However it has a pretty long half life which makes it a bad choice if you are gonna be tested w/o significant notice.


Winny is common for the great strength gains without putting on a lot of weight. however it is well known to not be really joint friendly and many times is stacked with joint friendly compounds. Some don't know this and winny by itself is asking for injury and sore joints.

So the quick strength gains can be a problem but just as important is the choice of compounds.

Arod used primo amongst others. Very poplular but expensive AAS that many haven't heard of. Reason is b/c it is often faked and is expensive so the average gym guy won't get to use it..

I do love this subject b/c it is a chance to educate a few people each time. Wont change opinions and I don't know everything but I have seen most of these compounds and I have seen their results and effects.



p.s. Roid Rage is a myth as well. If you are a hot head than you will have roid rage. If you are nice guy you wont. It is that simple. NOw some people(namely fighters) will take either tren or halo b/c they are known to increase aggression. There are so many different compounds out there but people lump them all as one when they are not close in many ways

[korp]

Ah yeah I admit I don't know much about them but that was more of an obvious potential problem to me ... does make sense how certain ones can cause more problems than others. Primo is so popular because it gets major strength gains without the massive steroid growth right? I think I remember seeing that explaination somewhere.

[hawkiirock]

Yep lot of strength and lean gains. Wont bulk up or retain water and get the moon face.

Instead many choose winny b/c it is easier to obtain but if you don't use other compounds with it you are gonna get some major joint problems. It is notorious for joint pain but Winny is also very good for Lean gains. Gain a lot of strength and change body composition without getting "big".

The ones that really bulk up fast are normally getting some water retention. The trainers now are smarter and they "stack" compounds to make it less noticeable

Kinda stinks nobody wants to talk about this now. I saw several posters just post completely inaccurate statements and rather than debate them with some facts they seem to prefer just passing on inaccurate info. and contributing to the ignorance of the general public. Maybe I am wrong but just seems like that.


Watched the braves game yesterday and listened to those bozo's talk about arod and steroids. They are so clueless and dangerous with their info.

On another note why in a million years would they believe that arod only did steroids for 3 years?Ah yeah I admit I don't know much about them but that was more of an obvious potential problem to me ... does make sense how certain ones can cause more problems than others. Primo is so popular because it gets major strength gains without the massive steroid growth right? I think I remember seeing that explaination somewhere.

[cablmarlin10]

p.s. Rodi Rage is a myth as well. If you are a hot head than you will have Rodi rage. If you are nice guy you wont. It is that simple. NOW some people(namely fighters) will take either tern or halo b/c they are known to increase aggression. There are so many different compounds out there but people lump them all as one when they are not close in many ways
You seem to know your stuff but.....Some of the earliest known use of anabolic steroids for non prescribed use was with German SS officers during WWII. Since they mimic the predominantly male hormone testosterone (which help develop all of the male sex characteristics such as muscularity, sexual development, AGGRESSIVENESS) they were in fact administered to make them more aggressive! It is true that if you have a guy who is mousy to begin with, it probably won't make him a short fuse but if someone with normal levels and what would be considered above normal "competitiveness/aggressiveness" can, will, and sometimes do become short fused or superaggressive.....If you have been around this game: gyms and users, certainly you have witnessed this! In other words if a guy is an @!# and temperamental, his levels are probably normally on the high side....add to that and a bad situation can become worse!

[cablmarlin10]

These guys just found out in the late nineties what division three A football players knew in the late eighties!

Of course there are always exceptions.....and those guys in baseball who are clean should be proud. It was said earlier, Bonds was one of the best ever natural in his early career. He saw those who were less naturally gifted putting up record numbers and got PO'd.....and medicated!

[korp]

p.s. Rodi Rage is a myth as well. If you are a hot head than you will have Rodi rage. If you are nice guy you wont. It is that simple. NOW some people(namely fighters) will take either tern or halo b/c they are known to increase aggression. There are so many different compounds out there but people lump them all as one when they are not close in many ways
You seem to know your stuff but.....Some of the earliest known use of anabolic steroids for non prescribed use was with German SS officers during WWII. Since they mimic the predominantly male hormone testosterone (which help develop all of the male sex characteristics such as muscularity, sexual development, AGGRESSIVENESS) they were in fact administered to make them more aggressive! It is true that if you have a guy who is mousy to begin with, it probably won't make him a short fuse but if someone with normal levels and what would be considered above normal "competitiveness/aggressiveness" can, will, and sometimes do become short fused or superaggressive.....If you have been around this game: gyms and users, certainly you have witnessed this! In other words if a guy is an @!# and temperamental, his levels are probably normally on the high side....add to that and a bad situation can become worse!
Is that 100% from the PED? or could it be due to increased self image because they are getting stronger/bigger? or some of both?

[cablmarlin10]

Is that 100% from the PED? or could it be due to increased self image because they are getting stronger/bigger? or some of both?

Increased self image aka "cockiness"....maybe in younger people (adolescents). IMO, professional sports figures.....not MMA fighters....have already been through a great deal just to get where they are. I do think that so called roid rage is more due to chemical triggering of the emotions: anger,intensity,aggressiveness. Some people may not agree with me and that's fine but I've seen it too many times not to believe it. I don't want to get off the subject this thread was started for but this phenomenon is definitely real....of course it does not mean that it happens to everyone who has ever done a cycle of the stuff.......As for the generalization- PED's, that to me encompasses way to many drugs some of which are outside the realm of what anabolics do.....namely the amphetamines and such. I admittedly know nothing about them.

[hawkiirock]

I don't really disagree with you there but we would need to clarify the dosages used with that study. Also I did state a couple of compounds are used for that purpose. Halo and Tren are both popular with fighters etc. For the most part though if you are a pussy cat then roids will just make you a stronger and bigger pussy cat lolp.s. Rodi Rage is a myth as well. If you are a hot head than you will have Rodi rage. If you are nice guy you wont. It is that simple. NOW some people(namely fighters) will take either tern or halo b/c they are known to increase aggression. There are so many different compounds out there but people lump them all as one when they are not close in many ways
You seem to know your stuff but.....Some of the earliest known use of anabolic steroids for non prescribed use was with German SS officers during WWII. Since they mimic the predominantly male hormone testosterone (which help develop all of the male sex characteristics such as muscularity, sexual development, AGGRESSIVENESS) they were in fact administered to make them more aggressive! It is true that if you have a guy who is mousy to begin with, it probably won't make him a short fuse but if someone with normal levels and what would be considered above normal "competitiveness/aggressiveness" can, will, and sometimes do become short fused or superaggressive.....If you have been around this game: gyms and users, certainly you have witnessed this! In other words if a guy is an @!# and temperamental, his levels are probably normally on the high side....add to that and a bad situation can become worse!

[hawkiirock]

WE don't have enough fingers and toes to count the people I have been aroudn and directly associated with and I have yet to see one case of roid rage. It is a myth. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Now it can add some aggressiveness depending on the substance and quantity BUT text book roid rage is a joke. Media acts like you bum a syringe off a coke head and shoot in a vein LMAO... and then go crazy if somebody takes your parking spot.


Go drive in the city one day and watch everyone fruiting out. There are people who control themselves and there are people who don't. You would be shocked at how many people think steroids are injected into veins lol. BTW, if you ever tried injecting in a muscle and hit a vein you will know it. ANyone that has been around AAS knows that hitting a vein is not a good deal at all


One other note many dont know. A lot of athletes will use insulin. You can manipulate insulin and get steroid like muscle growth. This is also a fact and is widely practiced in some areas. Wouldnt put it past ball players if testing were too stringest to do regular AAS. Although I think you are crazy to mess with slin

WE can agree to disagree on your roid rage beliefs. If you are thinking it is roid rage by what you see in the gym then that can be pretty easily explained. If you are used to putting up 300 pounds as a max and all of a sudden you are pushing 400+ or trying record maxes you will get pretty dang pumped and crazy to do it.

You will also lift at a much higher intensity levels b/c your body can take it. You can lift high intensity for multiple workouts and put on muscle when your normally it would be overtraining. Also, depending on the compound, some guys can get more intense b/c they feel better than they have in years. Feel like they were 18 again and that adds to the pump. Just giving a couple short examples of why someone might be going nuts in the gym lol.

How about I take my video camera to my boys wrestling meet this weekend and tape the crowd. You would think there are a few moms and dads on steroids there b/c they go plain crazy. Screaming at their kids, coaches, refs etc. Just losing their minds. Now if it was somebody big everyone would say look at him having roid rage. Since it is a soccer mom what do we blame it on?


Couple others I wanted to say are Alfonso Soriano and man the other escaped me but thought of him today. Zambrano wouldnt suprise me at all either.
Increased self image aka "cockiness"....maybe in younger people (adolescents). IMO, professional sports figures.....not MMA fighters....have already been through a great deal just to get where they are. I do think that so called roid rage is more due to chemical triggering of the emotions: anger,intensity,aggressiveness. Some people may not agree with me and that's fine but I've seen it too many times not to believe it. I don't want to get off the subject this thread was started for but this phenomenon is definitely real....of course it does not mean that it happens to everyone who has ever done a cycle of the stuff.......As for the generalization- PED's, that to me encompasses way to many drugs some of which are outside the realm of what anabolics do.....namely the amphetamines and such. I admittedly no nothing about them.

[cablmarlin10]

You make some good points......There is a big difference in therapeutic doses and those used to gain maximum size/weight. Yes, stereotyping is bad no matter what the subject......sharing needles, might happen with a crack head but NEVER an athlete. Intramuscular you jokers not intravenous!

[cablmarlin10]

I don't really disagree with you there but we would need to clarify the dosages used with that study. Also I did state a couple of compounds are used for that purpose. Halo and Tren are both popular with fighters etc. For the most part though if you are a pussy cat then roids will just make you a stronger and bigger pussy cat lol

Hey you just described Julius Peppers! LOL

[hawkiirock]

lol that is correct. Hope we educated a few people at least on that point.




BTW, I am drawing a blank on who julius peppers is. NFL? i am sure it is a funny statement but i am not getting it lolYou make some good points......There is a big difference in therapeutic doses and those used to gain maximum size/weight. Yes, stereotyping is bad no matter what the subject......sharing needled, might happen with a crack head but NEVER an athlete. Intramuscular you jokers not intravenous!

[cablmarlin10]

Lil that is correct. Hope we educated a few people at least on that point.




BTW, I am drawing a blank on who Julius peppers is. NFL? i am sure it is a funny statement but i am not getting it Lil

Carolina Panthers DE 6'8' 285...A real specimen. See, you don't know who he is because even though he's an all pro, the guy NEVER gets po'd...If he had Steve Smith's intensity or Ray Lewis, he would be totally unstoppable! The guy takes a shot to the head and just smiles! :D

Fielder=clean
Pudge=not
Pujols= I'd like to think he's just a big guy...hasn't really shown the tell tale signs, then again he's a lot lighter this year. Still hits it a ton!

[hawkiirock]

aha that is correct. Lucky for the league he isn't a roid rager lolCarolina Panthers DE 6'8' 285...A real specimen. See, you don't know who he is because even though he's an all pro, the guy NEVER gets po'd...If he had Steve Smith's intensity or Ray Lewis, he would be totally unstoppable! The guy takes a shot to the head and just smiles! :D

Fielder=clean
Pudge=not
Pujols= I'd like to think he's just a big guy...hasn't really shown the tell tale signs, then again he's a lot lighter this year. Still hits it a ton!

[dw8man]

I remember some pretty good debate about if Ortiz was juiced or not in this thread.... well this just came out today:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/07/30/ortiz.steroids/index.html?bcnn=yes

[Blackhat]

Who cares? Baseball is better with Steroids! Don't we want all players to de everything possible to become a better player? :gt




---
Is there a sarcasm emoticon?

[calgofo]

Who cares? Baseball is better with Steroids! Don't we want all players to de everything possible to become a better player? :gt




---
Is there a sarcasm emoticon?

Exactly. Let em all juice then we can stop speculating who does and who doesn't. Especially, the old players should be allowed. Notice how many older players retired after drug testing. No sense depriving us of our heroes prematurely. :D

[PhilliesPhan22]

They spoke to Canseco and he posed the question of what baseball is going to do when they find out that a Hall of Famer has used.

Who could that be? Probably a more recent inductee.

Ripken?
Sandberg?
Boggs?
Ricky?
Windfield?
Molitor?

Those are my guesses. But what would baseball do if that came out? It would be a tremendous black eye.

[calgofo]

They spoke to Canseco and he posed the question of what baseball is going to do when they find out that a Hall of Famer has used.

Who could that be? Probably a more recent inductee.

Ripken?
Sandberg?
Boggs?
Ricky?
Windfield?
Molitor?

Those are my guesses. But what would baseball do if that came out? It would be a tremendous black eye.


I think it probably will come out. Put out by MLB purposely because, if they can show a few HOF took steroids then they can say," See the old timers did them" and gives them a way to muddy up the generations thus making the Steroid era less clear cut.

[Quiz]

My feeling is that pretty much everyone who performed way above average in MLB was using PED. It is simply not possible to compete with steroid users on the highest level unless you start using steroids yourself.

Don't forget that it wasn't the weak players who used PED to draw close, it was the best players trying to set records. There is no way to overcome the combination of talent and steroids unless you are doing the same. In fact, it would make me wonder if they bust Pujols also. The problem is that baseball would lose all the credibility and they just couldn't afford to make it public.

[emmitt]

I think it probably will come out. Put out by MLB purposely because, if they can show a few HOF took steroids then they can say," See the old timers did them" and gives them a way to muddy up the generations thus making the Steroid era less clear cut.

It has to be Ricky Henderson. He played with Jose and was around in 2003 for the drug test. I also remember him being pretty ripped during his Mets days.

One guy that I never see mentioned is Chipper. Chipper had some pretty big HR numbers during this time period and he has fallen off a good bit the last few years. I hope not, but I have noticed.

[Blackhat]

One guy that I never see mentioned is Chipper. Chipper had some pretty big HR numbers during this time period and he has fallen off a good bit the last few years. I hope not, but I have noticed.

Players just can't win. If they continue to perform well as they age they must be users. Guys are supposed to decline as they age. If the get older and lose some production they must be coming off the stuff.

Look at Chippers number's. From 1998 through 2008, if we disregard '02 and '03 when he was hurt, his AB/HR was between 15.05 and 17.69 every year but 2.

In 1999, at the age of 27 it was 12.6. Many people would argue that 27 is very close to a players peak age and should be his best power year. Add to that the fact that he was in the middle of a potent batting order with 5 guys that had 20+ HR and you can see he'd have pitches to hit. The extra homeruns that year make sense without looking at PEDs.

In 2008, at the age of 36 his HR totals dropped and he hit one every 19.95 AB. It could look like a decline in power, but he did have his highest average ever to lead the league. I think his focus may have been on hits, not HR. The reduced longballs and extra hits gave him his second highest ever OPS. I don't really see this as much of a decline, just a change in approach at the plate.

This year his average and power are down, but he's 37 and the lineup sucks. He should have weaker numbers. I still think his .884 OPS is pretty respectable, just not as good as the .950 to 1.00 we expect from him. He's 37, give him a break.

In the end I think Chipper has had quite a consistent career and is starting to show the natural decline that you expect for a guys in his mid/late 30's. Drug use is the furthest thing from my mind where he is concerned.

[emmitt]

Players just can't win. If they continue to perform well as they age they must be users. Guys are supposed to decline as they age. If the get older and lose some production they must be coming off the stuff.

Look at Chippers number's. From 1998 through 2008, if we disregard '02 and '03 when he was hurt, his AB/HR was between 15.05 and 17.69 every year but 2.

In 1999, at the age of 27 it was 12.6. Many people would argue that 27 is very close to a players peak age and should be his best power year. Add to that the fact that he was in the middle of a potent batting order with 5 guys that had 20+ HR and you can see he'd have pitches to hit. The extra homeruns that year make sense without looking at PEDs.

In 2008, at the age of 36 his HR totals dropped and he hit one every 19.95 AB. It could look like a decline in power, but he did have his highest average ever to lead the league. I think his focus may have been on hits, not HR. The reduced longballs and extra hits gave him his second highest ever OPS. I don't really see this as much of a decline, just a change in approach at the plate.

This year his average and power are down, but he's 37 and the lineup sucks. He should have weaker numbers. I still think his .884 OPS is pretty respectable, just not as good as the .950 to 1.00 we expect from him. He's 37, give him a break.

In the end I think Chipper has had quite a consistent career and is starting to show the natural decline that you expect for a guys in his mid/late 30's. Drug use is the furthest thing from my mind where he is concerned.

That's a pretty solid evaluation of it and seems correct and I hope your right. He definately doesn't have anyone around him this year beside McCann. I just heard that they got Adam LaRoche for Casey Kotchman at the deadline. That should help bring a little more power to the lineup.

[Blackhat]

That's a pretty solid evaluation of it and seems correct and I hope you're right. He definately doesn't have anyone around him this year beside McCann. I just heard that they got Adam LaRoche for Casey Kotchman at the deadline. That should help bring a little more power to the lineup.

I wonder if LaRoche even had time to set up his locker in Boston. What was he there, 10 days? I'm sure he was thrilled to go to Boston and have a chance at the post season, I wonder how he feels about going back to Atlanta. Either way, has to be better than Pittsburgh.

VMart is a huge pickup for Boston. I like their chances now.

[Quiz]

If you see a list of 10 guys hitting a certain number of HRs during the steroid area and 9 of them used PEDs, you can bet all your money that the 10th guy used it also. It was a level playing field!

There is no way to compete with buffed up superstars unless you are using the same stuff yourself. The reason is simple: You cannot have that much of an initial edge over a superstar, so that you can allow him to use doping while you stay clean.

[CircleChange11]

It has to be Ricky Henderson. He played with Jose and was around in 2003 for the drug test. I also remember him being pretty ripped during his Mets days.

One guy that I never see mentioned is Chipper. Chipper had some pretty big HR numbers during this time period and he has fallen off a good bit the last few years. I hope not, but I have noticed.

No way.

I remember reading an article on Henderson where he stated that he avoided the weight room because he added muscle so quickly, and it impeded his speed game. Rickey's just "one of those guys". Rickey on steroids might have been what Eric Davis was 'suppossed to be' ... a 50/50 candidate. Now, if there was a guy that could have benefitted from steroids and recovery, it woulda been ED44.

If it were a guy on that list, and knowing that the #1 benefit of steroids in baseball is recovery and being able to remain 'at peak' for all season, who might it be?

I admit, even though it's tabboo to think it, let alone say it, I would not be knocked over (surprised, but not knocked over) if it came out that Cal Ripken had "a little help" ... particularly in the days when he was noted for "kicking up hiw workout regimen" (at an 'advanced' in MLB terms, age). I can think of at least one of his teammates "Mr. 50HR" that was an obvious user ... even got himself a feature in Muscle and Fitness.

FWIW, I'm a "one-strike and your out (for life)" type of guy, provided that a positive test results in a secondary test, y'know to account for all these *cough* false positives *cough* that seemingly occur.

I've never been a steroid user and never will be (now in 10 years as technology improves and price declines, I might be one of those 'hormone therapy' types ... I think muscle is cool, and I sure wanna avoid 'moobs' as long as I can). But, I have friends that do, as part of the "Strongman/Powerlifting culture". The biggest advantage to them is that they can perform brutal workout after brutal workout without the recovery time, so when I hear of pro athletes that are "outworking" everyone else, yet don't breakdown like others do, while still 'puttin up the numbers' that's a big red flag to me. Not a "death sentence", but a red flag. Steroids do what they're suppossed to, big time.

I've lost all faith in athletes telling the truth ... and telling the truth once you've been cornered by evidence ain't, IMO, "telling the truth". ARod didn;t "come out", he soke so he could have some control on the PR aspect of it.

I will say this though, once a sport finds out about PEDs, rarely is it "cleaned up", the users just get smarter about 'testing' and how to beat it ... like the olympics, much of the NFL, etc. For many, the risk is worth the reward. Especially in MLB where you get 2 strikes before you're gone for good. Amazing that the only way we know of this is because some T&F coach got jealous (turned in BALCO) and Jose canseco needed money. We would have probably all caught on eventually, but still.

It sucks that we have this conversation, and sucks even more that the 1st thing my 8yo sees on ESPN in the morning is another MLB'er being 'outed'.

I'm also not at all surprised at the number of low-level middle relivers that have tested positive or been suspended ... it's not about 'muscle' per se, it's all about "recovery".