SS Taking Throws at 2nd base

[darivero]

Here is a question for the group; my son 11U plays SS for a travel team where the coach wants him to take the throws (from the catcher) at second in front of the bag rather than straddling the bag. My boy is a great defensive SS but has trouble handling the bouncers coming in from the catcher and the coach screams at him during the game to take the throw in front of the bag…any opinions on this and any drills I can do with him to help….I was thinking of just bouncing a bunch of “incrediballs” or T-Balls at him so he gets more comfortable….what do you think?

[wogdoggy]

Here is a question for the group; my son 11U plays SS for a travel team where the coach wants him to take the throws (from the catcher) at second in front of the bag rather than straddling the bag. My boy is a great defensive SS but has trouble handling the bouncers coming in from the catcher and the coach screams at him during the game to take the throw in front of the bag…any opinions on this and any drills I can do with him to help….I was thinking of just bouncing a bunch of “incrediballs” or T-Balls at him so he gets more comfortable….what do you think?



let the ball come all the way to you..dont sit in front and swipe backwards

[baseballdad]

I teach weight on left foot on front (towards pitcher) part of the bag, croach low with right leg opened up towards catcher, glove on or near the ground 1st base side of bag, looking at the catcher, wait for the ball-don't reach for it, and if it's a dirt ball or low hop have them catch through the ball and then sweep back. This is my take on the way Bucky Dent teaches it.

If you straddle behind the bag you are more in the runners path and probably not as low to the ground.

[Jake Patterson]

The problem with what your coaches teaches in this age group is target migration. The SS will tend to get to the front of the bag and creep in from there to catch the ball. There is only one general area that a SS can tag out a stealing runner and it seldom occurs in front of the bag so to have him receive the ball out front and then swipe back won't work.

While I don't have the players "straddle" the bag per se I have them get to the bag with out a committed position (straddle) as they have no clue where the ball is going to bounce. A perfect C-SS throw at this age is a one bouncer that arrives at the bag at the same time at the SS.

Typically at this age, if he plays on a large field a one bounced ball is what should be expected.

[baseballdad]

Good point on target migration and responding to bad throws.

[AltaLomaStorm]

We teach to never straddle the bag when taking a throw at any base. In your scenario, if the throw from the catcher is to the 1st base side of 2nd, the SS will be "trapped" from moving off the bag to stop the throw if he is straddling. Being off the bag allows more mobility IMO. And if the receiver of the throw allows the throw to travel to him (such as a 1st baseman on a pick off - who also does not straddle the bag when holding a runner on) there isnt really much of having to reach back to tag the runner.

[Chris O'Leary]

Here is a question for the group; my son 11U plays SS for a travel team where the coach wants him to take the throws (from the catcher) at second in front of the bag rather than straddling the bag. My boy is a great defensive SS but has trouble handling the bouncers coming in from the catcher and the coach screams at him during the game to take the throw in front of the bag…any opinions on this and any drills I can do with him to help….I was thinking of just bouncing a bunch of “incrediballs” or T-Balls at him so he gets more comfortable….what do you think?

If my catcher has a good, accurate arm, I have the IFer straddle the bag and go for a drop tag.

If the catcher has a tendency to miss right or left I have the IFer move in front of the bag so they have a chance to move laterally if the throw is bad.

If you straddle and the ball is short and to the 1B side, it's probably going to get through to the OF because you're going to get blocked by the runner.

[wogdoggy]

We teach to never straddle the bag when taking a throw at any base. In your scenario, if the throw from the catcher is to the 1st base side of 2nd, the SS will be "trapped" from moving off the bag to stop the throw if he is straddling. Being off the bag allows more mobility IMO. And if the receiver of the throw allows the throw to travel to him (such as a 1st baseman on a pick off - who also does not straddle the bag when holding a runner on) there isnt really much of having to reach back to tag the runner.

ok if you DONT straddle and you DONT set up in front where do you put them..if you straddle and the throws on you got a shot..if your in front of the base and the throws on you probably will be late by the time you sweep back anyway.the straddle position might tie you up if the throw is off BUT you wont have a shot anyway

[g-mac]

I was always taught to straddle the bag and anticipate the wild throw and I've taught my kids the same. If you're in front of the bag and have to swipe back at the runner, you're losing time. The ball moves faster than you can, so why not use that to your advantage?

If you can't get to a wild throw on the first base side, where the runner is going to be in your way, you just have to count on your second baseman to back you up and hold the runner at second.

[AltaLomaStorm]

ok if you DONT straddle and you DONT set up in front where do you put them..
I never said we dont take the throw in front of the bag, as that is where they are taught to take it. They are taught to "let the ball travel" to them, as opposed to reaching out to catch it and then sweeping backward to tag. And when I say "in front," the SS's position is probably 10"-12" further in front, or toward the catcher, than someone who is "straddling."


if you straddle and the throws on you got a shot..if your in front of the base and the throws on you probably will be late by the time you sweep back anyway.the straddle position might tie you up if the throw is off BUT you wont have a shot anyway
true, however, if you are able to adjust your position you can stop the throw "that is off" and keep it from squirting off into the outfield and possibly allowing the runners to further advance.

[HYP]

I was always taught to straddle the bag and anticipate the wild throw and I've taught my kids the same. If you're in front of the bag and have to swipe back at the runner, you're losing time. The ball moves faster than you can, so why not use that to your advantage?

If you can't get to a wild throw on the first base side, where the runner is going to be in your way, you just have to count on your second baseman to back you up and hold the runner at second.

You are not "in front" of the bag. So no swiping back needed.

The SS doesn't actually go straight at 2nd base on a steal. They move towards the infield and towards 2nd base, trying to keep their shoulders somewhat square to the batter, an arc towards 2nd base. This sets them up on the 3rd base side of the bag.

The left foot stays on the SS side of the bag, semi straddling the SS-3rd base corner. Chest opened up to the runner.

This allows you to stay back and not get to much towards the catcher but also keeps you from being trapped by the runner on a bad throw and you are still protected by the bag.

My 2nd baseman doesn't back up the throw. The centerfielder does. I do not want both of my middle infielders vacating their positions. One goes the other stays home.

HYP

[wogdoggy]

I never said we dont take the throw in front of the bag, as that is where they are taught to take it. They are taught to "let the ball travel" to them, as opposed to reaching out to catch it and then sweeping backward to tag. And when I say "in front," the SS's position is probably 10"-12" further in front, or toward the catcher, than someone who is "straddling."



true, however, if you are able to adjust your position you can stop the throw "that is off" and keep it from squirting off into the outfield and possibly allowing the runners to further advance.

then you can yell at your other infielder and center fielder at the same time

[AltaLomaStorm]

This is the position we are teaching
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm114/cbrcanyoncrver/large_Angels20Red20Sox20Baseball_00.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm114/cbrcanyoncrver/PittsburghPiratesvFloridaMarlinsgmX.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm114/cbrcanyoncrver/_42627103_baseball_416.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm114/cbrcanyoncrver/4340a9bff0ead-52-1.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm114/cbrcanyoncrver/440d4a9266994-59-1.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm114/cbrcanyoncrver/15DODGERS16.jpg

This is what we are trying to avoid
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm114/cbrcanyoncrver/greene.jpg

And in all fairness...:D
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm114/cbrcanyoncrver/canada.jpg

[wogdoggy]

This is the position we are teaching
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm114/cbrcanyoncrver/large_Angels20Red20Sox20Baseball_00.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm114/cbrcanyoncrver/PittsburghPiratesvFloridaMarlinsgmX.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm114/cbrcanyoncrver/_42627103_baseball_416.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm114/cbrcanyoncrver/4340a9bff0ead-52-1.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm114/cbrcanyoncrver/440d4a9266994-59-1.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm114/cbrcanyoncrver/15DODGERS16.jpg

This is what we are trying to avoid
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm114/cbrcanyoncrver/greene.jpg

And in all fairness...:D
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm114/cbrcanyoncrver/canada.jpg

lol...all fairness.... cal ripken teaches the straddle in his videos for ll,,, i believe..too much potential for chaos the other way..guarantee you'll have kids diving, lunging, reaching, etc..

[baseballdad]

Although there is quite a bit of variation between those shots that is the general position I teach too. If the ball comes in on a low hop I think they need to come forward and through with a back sweep no matter where they are positioned.

[AltaLomaStorm]

then you can yell at your other infielder and center fielder at the same time
I dont really understand what you are saying here...but we teach our outfielders to be involved in every play, to anticipate and "find something to do." Obviously, all three outfielders will be collapsing on the steal at second, anticipating the errant throw.

[g-mac]

You are not "in front" of the bag. So no swiping back needed.

The SS doesn't actually go straight at 2nd base on a steal. They move towards the infield and towards 2nd base, trying to keep their shoulders somewhat square to the batter, an arc towards 2nd base. This sets them up on the 3rd base side of the bag.

The left foot stays on the SS side of the bag, semi straddling the SS-3rd base corner. Chest opened up to the runner.

Maybe it was a bad choice of words. I understand what you're saying, but I was always instructed to place your left foot outside of the center field corner and your right by the side of the bag that is parallel with the third base foul line.

[TG Coach]

I haven't coached infielders since LL. In LL our catchers had arms that would beat the runner by a lot. It got to the point teams stopped attempting steals. I had the cover straddle the bag. However, since 13U travel my son has had infield coaches (I'm a lefty). They've all taught set up with the left foot touching the bag and let the throw come to the bag. If the throw is wide to their left they have inside the runner to get to the ball.

[coachmook]

I was always taught to set up in front of the bag. If there is a bad throw, you can go get it without getting flipped by the runner. If it is a good throw, you step over the bag with your left foot as the ball is getting to you. Then you can straddle and put a V tag on him.

Mike

[g-mac]

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm114/cbrcanyoncrver/15DODGERS16.jpg


Maybe I stand corrected.:D DeWitt is a product of the same little league as my kids, but they were always taught to straddle the bag.
If my son sees this, he will change his approach entirely! LOL!

[wogdoggy]

I dont really understand what you are saying here...but we teach our outfielders to be involved in every play, to anticipate and "find something to do." Obviously, all three outfielders will be collapsing on the steal at second, anticipating the errant throw.

a lil sarcasm which really never works well in print..


if the cf isnt backing it up with the second baseman isnt backing it up..YELL !:hissyfit:

[AltaLomaStorm]

a lil sarcasm which really never works well in print..
if the cf isnt backing it up with the second baseman isnt backing it up..YELL !:hissyfit:
if the CF (my son) isn't backing up, there is gonna be a little more than just yelling...:laugh

[darivero]

Great responses....the photos really help, thanks!

[korp]

Much easier to block a bad throw if your in front ... the only real major problem I have seen is like I think somebody else said ..... if the player creeps in away from the bag and then yes they are too far to make a tag. In my opinion its a much safer position as well because if straddle its possible to get ran into by the runner sliding and also if the throw is behind the runner or bounces that way you basically can't stop it.

[SimiBaseball]

Ron Polk taught his Mississippi State players to "own" the outfield side of the bag then to read the throw. If the throw is on the money, it's easy to shift to a straddle and force the runner to slide straight in. If the throw is to the 1st base side, then move in front of the baseline to block or possibly sweep the tag. If the throw is to the 3rd base side, but catchable, the leverage of the foot hooking the bag can be used to stay in position to catch then sweep the tag. If the fielder is positioned in front of the bag on a throw to the 3B side that must be reached for, there is little chance of making a tag as the momentum of the body makes it difficult to come back to the bag.

The fact of the matter is that at 11u, unless the throw is perfect, fielders take themselves out of position to make the tag when they are positioned in front of the bag. By teaching your base stealers to read this and slide to the outfield side of the bag, you will get a lot of stolen bases on throws that beat the runner to the bag simply because the fielder is out of position. Happens over and over.

[TG Coach]

Maybe I stand corrected.:D DeWitt is a product of the same little league as my kids, but they were always taught to straddle the bag.
If my son sees this, he will change his approach entirely! LOL!

I'll bet he's had a bit of coaching since LL.

[g-mac]

I'll bet he's had a bit of coaching since LL.

Um, maybe just a little.:D Yeah, I was just shocked to see his photo in this discussion. He is looked up to by every kid in town and is a fantastic example for the kids on and off the field!
We live in Cardinal country, but sometimes you wouldn't know it by all of the Dodger jerseys during our practices.

[Ursa Major]

First, you've got to make sure that your strategy is age and skill appropriate, Sure, you should bear in mind that you also have an "obligation" to prepare the kid for what's going to be expected of him in later years, but (since there's disagreement at higher levels what the best way to take the throw is), I'd just go with what works for this particular team.

I agree that you want to be on the inside of the bag to be able to track down errant throws (and at that level there will be some) without a collision. But, it drives me nuts to see even talented shortstops take two steps toward the mound to catch a throw that is right on target as the baserunner slides behind him. The SS should be told that his left foot does not leave the bat unless and until he determines that the throw is off.

And why wouldn't the second baseman back up the play? Sure, you want him to hold his position until after he determines that the ball won't be hit, but then he should light out to his backup position. If the centerfielder -- who will be farther away from the base -- starts in as soon as the runner breaks, then he will be out of position. But, if he too takes off as soon as the ball crosses the plate, he should be able to get close enough that a sliding runner shouldn't be able to advance if the throw gets by cleanly. What is the killer is if the ball bounces, shorthops off the SS's glove, and then bounds past the second baseman into short right field.

[HYP]

First, you've got to make sure that your strategy is age and skill appropriate, Sure, you should bear in mind that you also have an "obligation" to prepare the kid for what's going to be expected of him in later years, but (since there's disagreement at higher levels what the best way to take the throw is), I'd just go with what works for this particular team.

I agree that you want to be on the inside of the bag to be able to track down errant throws (and at that level there will be some) without a collision. But, it drives me nuts to see even talented shortstops take two steps toward the mound to catch a throw that is right on target as the baserunner slides behind him. The SS should be told that his left foot does not leave the bat unless and until he determines that the throw is off.

And why wouldn't the second baseman back up the play? Sure, you want him to hold his position until after he determines that the ball won't be hit, but then he should light out to his backup position. If the centerfielder -- who will be farther away from the base -- starts in as soon as the runner breaks, then he will be out of position. But, if he too takes off as soon as the ball crosses the plate, he should be able to get close enough that a sliding runner shouldn't be able to advance if the throw gets by cleanly. What is the killer is if the ball bounces, shorthops off the SS's glove, and then bounds past the second baseman into short right field.


You are right, he does go to back up after he determines there is not going to be a hit ball. But he normally can't get all the way there. He heads that way, under control, for the very reason you state, about ball kicking off glove.

The center fielder doesn't leave his position until he determines that the ball is not going to be hit. The runner will be sliding and the center fielder should be able to get to a throw in time that goes through.

Another thing I teach both of my middle infielders on a play at the bag, is to deek the runner. If the throw skips through, I have them hold their glove on the runner like they have the ball. If they field it and don't have a play, I have them turn like it got through.

HYP

[Ursa Major]

Another thing I teach both of my middle infielders on a play at the bag, is to deek the runner. If the throw skips through, I have them hold their glove on the runner like they have the ball. If they field it and don't have a play, I have them turn like it got through.Believe it or not, some youth leagues have rules against the former practice. I wouldn't teach it until you get to higher levels. (But, then again, such tricks are best learned on the street, the same way you learn about sex and spitballs. anything going on around him. You know the type. But we encouraged him and tried to teach him, and at least made him feel a part of the team. But, it's hard to find some way to compliment the kid other than "you've got your jersey tucked in nicely today, Daniel."

One day in mid-season, we have him in left field. With two outs, the runner on second breaks for third and the catcher's throw sales over the third baseman. The runner gets up from his slide and we expect him to score, but lo and behold, Daniel has puttered over and picked up the ball, and the runner -- not knowing that Daniel has no arm -- stays put. We get the next batter and the runner is stranded.

Aha! This is my chance! As the kids come off the field, I rush him and slap him on the back and pump his hand. He looks at me like I'm nuts. I said, "Think about it. Without your great backup, the run scores. But, he doesn't and so you saved us a run. That's just like a home run in my book!" Daniel pauses -- at least two seconds, of course -- and breaks into a big grin. And with that ... for the rest of the season ... well, nothing changed in his performance. But, at least that one time, it was his moment.

[Ursa Major]

I received an email from someone who's played second base in the major leagues who, while unable to post directly here, gave me authority to pass his views along here. I think they're uncontroversial enough:

The position or technique that has given me the best success is one where as a SS you try to the front of the bag to start with: left foot right in front of the bag. From there you read the throw. If the throw is going to be on the money, you simply shift your feet back and straddle the bag and receive the throw. Don't go and get the ball, let it come to you! If you are straddling the bag from the get go and the ball is thrown up the line, it's more difficult to adjust and get in front of the runner to cut the ball off, and you are asking for a collision. Also if the ball is up the line and you are in front of the bag, you stand a chance of catching the ball and swipe tagging the runner as he goes by. The Angels organization was big on this when I was there.