Bonds case

[brett]

From what I am hearing now, Bonds the keystone evidence that will be used against Bonds is that he had discussions about how what he was taking was "undetectable".

If his lawyer is smart, this will be the case. Balco promoted their "supplements" to athletes with the line that they were a legal steroid alternative. (This is well known among the sports science communitly. Bonds claims that he thought they were legal. Furthermore (also known to the SSC) Balco claimed that their "legal" alternative would also not produce a false positive test like some other technically legal supplements did. These technically legal supplements are now illegal anyway. The government has now stated that since they fit the definition of a steroid, even though they were not listed as such by the FDA they are now considered to be cheating the system.

shhhh!

[gman5431]

Am i the only one that doesnt care about any of this crap. Bonds cheated and he is a fraud. Any legal mumbo jumbo and loop holes and lies will never convince me otherwise. Sure A-Rod only used from 2001-2003 (haha) and Bonds had no idea he was taking roids. Please, i was born at night but it wasnt last nite.

G Man

[brett]

Am i the only one that doesnt care about any of this crap. Bonds cheated and he is a fraud. Any legal mumbo jumbo and loop holes and lies will never convince me otherwise. Sure A-Rod only used from 2001-2003 (haha) and Bonds had no idea he was taking roids. Please, i was born at night but it wasnt last nite.

G Man

I'm not defending him, I'm just making a prediction as to how they will argue his case for purgery.

[Badge714]

I'm with you on this. It's amazing how many servile sycophants Bonds has in his camp. The guy is a no good cheat. No one will ever convince me that a few extra reps in the gym was responsible for his dramatic increase in home run production. From a previous high of 46 to 73, at his age? Baloney. The guy was on the Clear, the Cream, insulin, HGH, testosterone decanoate, aka "Mexican Beans", trenbolone (a steroid created to improve the muscle quality in cattle), Clomid (a woman's infetility drug thought to help a steroid user recover his natural testosterone production) and Modafinil (a narcolepsy drug used as a powerful stimulent). Give me a break! And on all this he hit one homer over 450 feet. Big freakin' deal. Ruth, on hot dogs and beer, hit at least one 500 foot home run in every American League Park. And with a ball with a smaller COR (coefficient of restitution) than the one the Cheater used. Bonds simply doesn't impress me. He faced lousy pitchers with high ERAs throwing from a lowered mound. All the while he wears body armor and digs in, negating the adverse effects of an inside pitch. Throw in a diminished strike zone, a Little League bat (well, almost, he used a 33" bat), and Easter Basket sized ball parks and you have a 330 foot homer. WOW! Ruth averaged 50 home runs a season from 1926 to 1931! His lifetime .690 SA was earned fair and square and he always produced at a high level over many, many years, unlike The Cheater, who had that dramatic and sudden leap in performance. No, sorry, The Wazir of Wham is the true benchmark of unbridled power. Ruth was sui generis. Show me another ballplayer who hit more home runs than any other team in the league. You can't. In 1927 Ruth hit more home runs than the Philadelphia Athletics whose roster included Mickey Cochran, Al Simmons, Ty Cobb and Jimmy Foxx.

[Moses Fleetwood-Walker]

Ruth never faced a black or latin in the majors. The league had 8 teams in his day. His #'s are more phony than Bonds' ever could be.

[Ubiquitous]

Actually not true. Babe Ruth faced Jose Acosta from Cuba and hit his 50th homer of the season off of him in 1920. Palmero I believe also faced Ruth.

[Moses Fleetwood-Walker]

Actually not true. Babe Ruth faced Jose Acosta from Cuba and hit his 50th homer of the season off of him in 1920. Palmero I believe also faced Ruth.

I stand corrected. Ruth didnt face any blacks or any black latins (darker skinned spanish speaking people who couldnt pass for white in those days).

[Badge714]

Nonsense! Ruth did face Black and Latin players, albeit in exihibition games. And he hit a home run off Satchel Paige! According to Bill Jenkinson, "Negro League luminary Buck O'Neil recalled the time that Ruth faced the legendary Satchel Paige sometime around 1938 in Chicago. Babe was forty-three at the time and had already retired. Nonetheless, he launched a tremendous home run to center field in his first at-bat that left Paige speechless for perhaps the only time in his life." And this, also from Jenkinson: "Babe Ruth is known to have batted fifty-five times against the top black pitchers of his era. In those at-bats, he connected for twenty-five base hits and blasted twelve home runs. That works out to a batting average of over .400 and a slugging percentage of over .1000." Fact is, Ruth would have excelled against any competition in any setting. He didn't have to cheat. And by your logic, since Blacks and Latinos didn't face white players then we must conclude that their stats are also fradulent. Balderdash! That race card won't fly. And don't forget that history is the often unpleasant record of the way things actually were, not the way they should have been. And let's not forget that Ruth was also quite a pitcher. In fact, in his first start against a major league team (as a nineteen year old), he defeated the World Champion Philadelphia Athletics, striking out Home Run Baker twice and holding Eddie Collins hitless.

[Moses Fleetwood-Walker]

Nonsense! Ruth did face Black and Latin players, albeit in exihibition games.

I stopped reading after this line. I specifically said he didnt face em in the "Majors". Thats a fact. Embellishing feats in a Jim Crow era that deemed people inferior based on their skin tone is counterproductive to what this country and society is all about. Without the advantage of being "white & privileged" in an era of intolerance and ignorance I doubt Babe would've cracked 600 HRs. I stand by my statement that Bonds is villifed and hated for making Ruth obsolete in todays sports world. 90% of his haters are Ruth fanatics or Jim Crow era apologists.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I stopped reading after this line. I specifically said he didnt face em in the "Majors". Thats a fact. Embellishing feats in a Jim Crow era that deemed people inferior based on their skin tone is counterproductive to what this country and society is all about. Without the advantage of being "white & privileged" in an era of intolerance and ignorance I doubt Babe would've cracked 600 HRs. I stand by my statement that Bonds is villifed and hated for making Ruth obsolete in todays sports world. 90% of his haters are Ruth fanatics or Jim Crow era apologists.

Obsolete, where is that, where have you been. Even some that hold Barry in high esteem wonder if he would have hit 73 in a season or 762 career without his use of PEDs, which at this time appears to have takne place. I will put that on hold until it is proven he did. Really no way to know what he would have totalled.

Barry was already one of the best. Had he not been so suspect as a user and hit even 80 or 100 less career home runs he would have looked even better.
Barry knows that it takes more than some numbers to pass Ruth, like all around numbers especially career numbers, he knows it's still Ruth.

Hank Aaron shows class, said he doesn't want Babe Ruth to be forgotten, he only wants fans to remember Henry Aaron.
Barry has another approach, words from his mouth............"Don't talk about him (Ruth) no more."

[Badge714]

I'm with you on this Shoeless. The Babe is hardly obsolete. That moon-faced visage isn't going away. There's been at least a half dozen books written about him over the past few years. And how about that pre-steroid Bonds and his playoff performances? An abject failure. In fact, he choked big time. In 1990, when the Pirates lost to the Reds 4 games to 2, Bonds batted .167 and drove in a grand total of exactly one run. Wow! Against the Braves in 1991 (Braves in seven) he batted .148 without a single RBI. Even worse was his horrible performance in the 1992 playoffs, again against the Braves. He did manage to hit .261, with a home run: however, his shoddy fielding led to yet another defeat. In the ninth inning of game seven with two outs and the bases loaded he allowed a hit by Francisco Cabrera to fall in and win the game for the Braves. Andy Van Slyke tried to get him to move toward center. Instead Bonds played closer to the left field line. Cabrera hit the ball precisely where Van Slyke had urged Bonds to move. David Justice scored the tying run from third and the slow-footed Sid Bream scored from second when Bonds' throw went up the first base line. Game, set, and match. Contrast this with Ruth. Before Ruth, the Yankees had never won a World Series. After Ruth, they won four, and in one stretch won twelve games in a row. While with Boston, Ruth played on three World Series winners, primarily as a pitcher, with a 3-0 record. He was also the first player to hit three homers in a World Series game and he did that twice. No, the Babe ain't going away. No ignominy for the Babe, Bonds is the one who deserves ignominy and shame.

[Badge714]

One other thing. Ruth "white and privileged?" Surely you jest. Has anyone heard of the St. Mary's Industrial School, where Ruth lived from about (off and on, mainly on) the age of seven to nineteen? He overcame tremendous hardship. His father was even murdered on the street. Bonds was the privileged and pampered brat and everone knows this. Ruth needs no apologists; it's Bonds who needs the apologists, and he's got thousands of them.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Babe Ruth unlike many in his time got along fine with blacks, general public and black players. I've read some articles speaking of how he would often sit and swap stories with black players after some exhibition games.

Black star "Cannon Ball" Dick Redding commented on how he and Ruth would share a chaw of tobacco after a game, talk baseball.

Joe Dugan tells of a time Ruth pulled over his car, sat on the steps of a tenament in St. Louis and spent some time talking to a group of young black boys. When he left he took some balls, mitts and bats from his trunk and gave them to the boys.

He once attended a fund raising event at a black church, donated some signed balls to be sold, he started out by buying one of his own balls back.

It's for sure Ruth would have welcomed black players in his time, there was not much he could do himself to get the ball rolling in that time. Landis and most of MLB was dead set against integration.

What a shame, the losers were MLB and the fans who never got to see some of the best players in that time, because of skin color.

This article I had saved some time ago. From a black newpaper, I believe in Pittsburgh.

[mwiggins]

Ruth never faced a black or latin in the majors. The league had 8 teams in his day. His #'s are more phony than Bonds' ever could be.

How many black or Latin starting pitchers of any significance did Bonds really face during his career? Every NL Cy Young winner during his career was white, other than Pedro in '97. He faced Gooden early in his career. Ramon Martinez had a few good years in the 90's. Dennis Martinez was great for a few years early in Bonds' career. Jose Rijo was great in the early 1990's as well. And of course Pedro was great for a few years in the mid-90's.

But once Pedro left, during his great peak years, the dominant pitchers in the NL were pretty much all white. It's not like he was facing the likes of Gibson, Marichal, Santana, Gooden, Jenkins, Sabathia or Tiant that often during his peak hitting years.

Now if you're talking A-Rod vs. Ruth, then that's a much better argument. He had to face the likes of Santana, Rivera, Sabathia, Pedro, Colon, K-Rod, Freddie Garcia, and Kelvim Escobar. Plus Esteban Loaisa was great during his '03 MVP season. The two best starters in the AL during his prime, and the best reliever, would all not have been allowed to play during Ruth's era.

[gman5431]

Comparing Babe Ruth to Barry Bonds is like comparing a diamond to a turd.

G Man

[Moses Fleetwood-Walker]

Bonds never attacked fans. Can Babe Ruth say the same? Ruth was a douche. I'd never teach my kids to be like him. I'd never teach my kids its OK to believe in eugenics. If he had've spent less time chasing prostitutes and the bottom of a liquor bottle he might've been good enough to reach 762. But alas, there's only 1 Bonds.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Bonds never attacked fans. Can Babe Ruth say the same? Ruth was a douche. I'd never teach my kids to be like him. I'd never teach my kids its OK to believe in eugenics. If he had've spent less time chasing prostitutes and the bottom of a liquor bottle he might've been good enough to reach 762. But alas, there's only 1 Bonds.

Do you think Bonds's mistress shares your view? Don't elevate a man into something he's not simply to deride another.

Someone who died over 60 years (which means your assessment of him not really fair) is off-topic. Please stop trying to sabotage threads to push your own agenda.

[Moses Fleetwood-Walker]

Do you think Bonds's mistress shares your view? Don't elevate a man into something he's not simply to deride another.

Someone who died over 60 years (which means your assessment of him not really fair) is off-topic. Please stop trying to sabotage threads to push your own agenda.

Blame the people who brought up Ruth in the first place. Im tired of people standing on a moral soap box about Bonds, and then kissing Ruth's feet. He was flawed, and just because he played in a mythical era of segregation doesnt mean we should downplay that.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Blame the people who brought up Ruth in the first place. Im tired of people standing on a moral soap box about Bonds, and then kissing Ruth's feet. He was flawed, and just because he played in a mythical era of segregation doesnt mean we should downplay that.

That person posted once. You keep pouncing every time his name comes up, and never in the context of the thread itself. Which seems to be a common practice for you.

Plaine and simple, don't expect your off-topic posts hating on long-dead players who didn't set the policy you blindly blame them for to last.