BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1939 [Archive]

View Full Version : BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1939

DoubleX

02-15-2009, 12:49 PM

PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING!

Format and Rules
Voting Rules: Voters may vote for between 0-15 candidates. Votes will be made public, and voters are encouraged to post their ballots in the thread and not view results before voting. PLEASE LIMIT YOUR BALLOT TO 15 VOTES AT MOST. EXCESS VOTES MAY RESULT IN YOUR BALLOT BEING DISQUALIFIED.
-Blank Ballots: A "None of the Above" option is available if you believe no one is worthy and you wish to submit a blank ballot. This option is not to be taken lightly and it is strongly urged that it be used only after the utmost consideration, as non-votes carry great weight. Additionally, if using this option, please post your rationale.

Thoughtfulness and Editing Ballots: Please review and thoughtfully consider the candidates before voting, and make sure you have accurately filled out your ballot before submitting. Requests for editing ballots after the fact will generally not be honored. Exceptions might be made if a voter accidentally voted for the wrong player or accidentally went over the voting limit (but I strongly encourage you to do your best to prevent either from happening).

Required Support: Players receiving at least 75% support in an election will be elected. Players need at least 5% support to stay on the ballot, with an exception for first-year eligible players, who will need at least 1 vote to appear on the next ballot.

Player Eligibility: Players eligible for an election will have last played at least 5 years prior to the election year and have appeared in at least 10 Major League seasons . If a player appeared in less than 10 seasons, he may still be eligible if he had a minimum of 3000 ABs or 1500 IP, though extra scrutiny will be applied. Players will remain on the ballot for 15 years, provided they continue to receive at least 5% of the vote, at which point they will become indefinitely eligible for periodic elections conducted by the Veterans Committee.
- Age Exception: For players 40 or older, they will become eligible the later of either 5 years after their last year of continuous play, or their first inactive year at age 45 or older.

Election Period: Elections will close exactly one week after starting. The next election might not commence for another day or two.

1939 Guide
There are 41 candidates on the 1939 ballot – 27 holdovers and 14 first timers. First time eligible players last played in 1934 (unless qualifying under the age rule).

First Timers (14)
Sparky Adams
George Grantham
Burleigh Grimes
Andy High
Don Hurst
Joe Judge
Marty McManus
Lefty O'Doul
Herb Pennock
Cy Perkins
Sam Rice
Muddy Ruel
Riggs Stephenson
Hack Wilson

Holdovers (27)
Player Year of Eligibility Previous Support High Support Low Support Average Support
Dave Bancroft 5th 20.00% 28.13% (1936) 20.00% (1938) 23.99%
Lu Blue 2nd 3.33% 3.33% (1938) 3.33% (1938) 3.33%
George J. Burns 10th 16.67% 24.00% (1930) 9.09% (1935) 16.49%
Wilbur Cooper 9th 46.67% 58.33% (1932) 33.33% (1935) 46.44%
Gavvy Cravath 15th 26.67% 37.50% (1925) 18.18% (1935) 26.21%
Johnny Evers 14th 26.67% 41.67% (1932) 21.21% (1935) 29.14%
Red Faber 2nd 63.33% 63.33% (1938) 63.33% (1938) 63.33%
Lew Fonseca 2nd 3.33% 3.33% (1938) 3.33% (1938) 3.33%
Larry Gardner 11th 6.67% 15.63% (1931) 6.25% (1936) 8.88%
Harry Hooper 10th 16.67% 34.38% (1931) 15.63% (1936) 21.85%
George Kelly 3rd 10.00% 10.00% (1938) 2.94% (1937) 6.47%
Ed Konetchy 14th 10.00% 16.67% (1932) 8.00% (1929) 12.08%
Rabbit Maranville 2nd 66.67% 66.67% (1938) 66.67% (1938) 66.67%
Rube Marquard 10th 10.00% 28.00% (1930) 9.38% (1936) 16.95%
Carl Mays 6th 50.00% 52.94% (1937) 45.45% (1935) 49.05%
Bob Meusel 5th 6.67% 9.09% (1935) 5.88% (1937) 6.97%
Del Pratt 11th 10.00% 20.83% (1932) 9.38% (1936) 14.28%
Jack Quinn 2nd 6.67% 6.67% (1938) 6.67% (1938) 6.67%
Eppa Rixey 2nd 60.00% 60.00% (1938) 60.00% (1938) 60.00%
Ray Schalk 6th 20.00% 25.00% (1934) 18.18% (1935) 20.50%
Wally Schang 4th 33.33% 34.38% (1936) 32.35% (1937) 33.35%
Joe Sewell 2nd 63.33% 63.33% (1938) 63.33% (1938) 63.33%
Urban Shocker 7th 26.67% 35.71% (1933) 24.24% (1935) 30.24%
Hippo Vaughn 14th 10.00% 21.43% (1934) 10.00% (1938) 15.35%
Bobby Veach 10th 33.33% 39.29% (1934) 24.00% (1930) 30.72%
Cy Williams 5th 13.33% 15.15% (1935) 11.77% (1937) 13.19%
Ross Youngs 9th 16.67% 16.67% (1938) 6.25% (1936) 10.61S%

Holdovers Dropped from Last Election (2)
Player Reason Years on Ballot High Support Low Support Average Support
Eddie Rommel Lack of Support 2 3.33% (1938) 2.94% (1937) 3.14%
Joe Wood Lack of Support 12 35.71% (1927) 0% (1938) 17.80%

Last Year of Eligibility (1)
Player High Support
Gavvy Cravath 37.50% (1925)

Penultimate Year of Eligibility (3)
Player High Support
Johnny Evers 41.67% (1932)
Ed Konetchy 16.67% (1932)
Hippo Vaughn 21.43% (1934)

Holdovers Receiving At Least 50% in the Previous Election (5)
Player Previous Support Years with At Least 50% Support
Rabbit Maranville 66.67% 1
Red Faber 63.33% 1
Joe Sewell 63.33% 1
Eppa Rixey 60.00% 1
Carl Mays 50.00% 3

HALL OF FAMERS

Players Elected (80)
Player Year Elected Election Percentage Years on Ballot Position Primary Team Active Years Total Seasons Living/Deceased Age at Election
Pete Alexander 1935 93.94% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1911-1930 20 Living - Age 52 48
Cap Anson 1902 100% 1 First Base Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1871-1897 27 Deceased (1852-1922) 50
Frank Baker 1927 96.43% 1 Third Base Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1908-1914, 1916-1919, 1921-1922 13 Living - Age 53 41
Ross Barnes^ 1911 76.00% 11 Second Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879, 1881 9 Deceased (1850-1915) 61
Jake Beckley 1917 76.00% 6 First Base Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1887-1907 20 Deceased (1867-1918) 50
Charlie Bennett 1907 75.00% 7 Catcher Detroit Wolverines (NL) 1878, 1880-1893 15 Deceased (1854-1927) 53
Roger Bresnahan 1925 79.17% 6 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1897, 1900-1915 17 Living - Age 58 46
Dan Brouthers 1901 90.00% 1 First Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1896, 1904 18 Deceased (1858-1932) 50
Mordecai Brown 1921 96.77% 1 Pitcher Chicago Cubs (NL) 1903-1916 14 Living – Age 63 45
Pete Browning 1909 77.27% 9 Center Field/Left Field Louisville Colonels (NL/AA) 1882-1894 13 Deceased (1861-1905) Deceased
Jesse Burkett 1910 92.00% 1 Left field Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1890-1905 16 Living – Age 71 42
Max Carey 1934 82.14% 1 Center Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1910-1929 20 Living - Age 49 44
Bob Caruthers 1909 77.27% 9 Pitcher/Right Field St. Louis Browns (Cardinals) (NL/AA) 1884-1893 10 Deceased (1864-1911) 45
Frank Chance 1932 83.33% 14 First Base Chicago Cubs (NL) 1898-1914 17 Deceased (1876-1924) Deceased
Cupid Childs 1920 76.92% 15 Second Base Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1888, 1890-1901 13 Deceased (1867-1912) Deceased
Fred Clarke 1917 88.00% 1 Left Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1894-1915 21 Living – Age 71 45
John Clarkson 1901 90.00% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1882, 1884-1894 12 Deceased (1861-1909) 40
Ty Cobb 1933 96.55% 1 Center Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1905-1928 24 Living - Age 53 47
Eddie Collins 1935 96.67% 1 Second Base Chicago White Sox (AL) 1906-1930 25 Living - Age 52 48
Jimmy Collins 1913 82.61% 1 Third Base Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1895-1908 14 Living – Age 69 43
Roger Connor 1902 79.17% 1 First Base New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Deceased (1857-1931) 45
Stan Coveleski 1934 89.29% 2 Pitcher Cleveland Indians (AL) 1912, 1916-1928 14 Living - Age 50 45
Sam Crawford 1922 92.86% 1 Right Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1899-1917 19 Living – Age 59 41
Bill Dahlen 1916 88.00% 1 Shortstop Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1891-1911 21 Living – Age 69 46
George Davis 1914 84.62% 1 Shortstop New York Giants (NL) 1890-1909 20 Living – Age 69 44
Ed Delahanty 1908 96.00% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1903 16 Deceased (1867-1903) Deceased
Larry Doyle 1926 76.00% 2 Second Base New York Giants (NL) 1907-1920 14 Living - Age 53 40
Hugh Duffy 1918 75.00% 8 Center Field/Outfield Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1888-1901, 1904-1906 17 Living – Age 73 52
Buck Ewing 1902 83.33% 1 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Deceased (1859-1906) 43
Elmer Flick 1916 80.00% 1 Right Field Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1898-1910 13 Living – Age 63 40
Pud Galvin 1903 80.77% 3 Pitcher Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1875, 1879-1892 15 Deceased (1856-1902) Deceased
Jack Glasscock 1911 84.00% 11 Shortstop Cleveland Blues (NL) 1879-1895 17 Living – Age 82 54
George Gore 1909 77.27% 9 Center Field Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1879-1892 14 Deceased (1857-1933) 52
Heinie Groh 1936 81.25% 5 Third Base Cincinnati Reds (NL) 1912-1927 16 Living - Age 50 47
Billy Hamilton 1906 82.61% 1 Center Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1901 14 Living – Age 73 40
Harry Heilmann 1937 91.18% 1 Right Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1914, 1916-1930, 1932 17 Living - Age 45 43
Paul Hines 1904 76.00% 4 Center Field Providence Grays (NL) 1872-1891 20 Deceased (1855-1935) 49
Hughie Jennings 1927 75.00% 14 Shortstop Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1891-1903, 1907, 1909, 1912, 1918 17 Deceased (1869-1928) 58
Walter Johnson 1932 100% 1 Pitcher Washington Senators (AL) 1907-1927 21 Living - Age 52 45
Addie Joss 1929 76.00% 15 Pitcher Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1902-1910 9 Deceased (1880-1911) Deceased
Tim Keefe 1901 75.00% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1893 14 Deceased (1857-1933) 44
Willie Keeler 1916 92.00% 2 Right Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1892-1910 19 Deceased (1872-1923) 44
Joe Kelley 1920 84.62% 8 Left Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1891-1906, 1908 17 Living – Age 68 49
King Kelly 1902 75.00% 2 Right Field/Catcher Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1878-1893 16 Deceased (1857-1894) Deceased
Napoleon Lajoie 1921 96.77% 1 Second Base Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1896-1916 21 Living – Age 65 47
Herman Long* 1925 (VC) 75.00% VC Shortstop Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1889-1904 16 Deceased (1866-1909) Deceased
Sherry Magee 1924 86.21% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1904-1919 16 Deceased (1884-1929) 40
Christy Mathewson 1922 93.55% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1900-1916 17 Deceased (1880-1925) 41
Joe McGinnity 1913 91.30% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1899-1908 10 Deceased (1871-1929) 42
Bid McPhee 1905 75.00% 2 Second Base Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1882-1899 18 Living – Age 80 46
Cal McVey*^ 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Catcher/First Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879 9 Deceased (1849-1926) 71
Tony Mullane 1908 80.00% 8 Pitcher Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1881-1894 14 Living – Age 79 49
Kid Nichols 1911 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1890-1901, 1904-1906 15 Living – Age 70 42
Jim O’Rourke 1901 90.00% 1 Left Field/Utility New York Giants (NL) 1872-1893, 1904 23 Deceased (1850-1919) 51
Dickey Pearce*^ 1920 (VC) 100% VC Shortstop Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) 1871-1877 7 Deceased (1836-1908) Deceased
Lip Pike*^ 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Center Field Baltimore Canaries (NA) 1871-1878, 1881, 1887 10 Deceased (1845-1893) Deceased
Eddie Plank 1922 92.86% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1901-1917 17 Deceased (1875-1926) 47
Charley Radbourn 1901 95.00% 1 Pitcher Providence Grays (NL) 1881-1891 11 Deceased (1854-1897) Deceased
Hardy Richardson* 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC Second Base/Left Field Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1892 14 Deceased (1855-1931) 65
Amos Rusie 1906 78.26% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1889-1895, 1897-1898, 1901 10 Living – Age 68 35
Jimmy Ryan* 1930 (VC) 86.67% VC Center Field Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1885-1900, 1902-1903 18 Deceased (1885-1923) Deceased
George Sisler 1935 90.91% 1 First Base St. Louis Browns (AL) 1915-1922, 1924-1930 15 Living - Age 46 42
Al Spalding^ 1915 80.00% 15 Pitcher Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1878 8 Deceased (1850-1915) Deceased
Tris Speaker 1933 100% 1 Center Field Cleveland Indians (AL) 1907-1928 22 Living - Age 51 45
Joe Start*^ 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC First Base Providence Grays (NL) 1871-1886 16 Deceased (1842-1927) 78
Harry Stovey 1907 75.00% 7 Left Field/First Base Philadelphia Athletics (AA) 1880-1893 14 Deceased (1856-1937) 51
Ezra Sutton* 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Third Base Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1871-1888 18 Deceased (1850-1907) Deceased
Sam Thompson 1907 79.17% 5 Right Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1885-1898, 1906 15 Deceased (1860-1922) 47
George Van Haltren 1918 75.00% 11 Center Field New York Giants (NL) 1887-1903 17 Living – Age 73 52
Rube Waddell 1915 84.00% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1897, 1899-1910 13 Deceased (1876-1914) Deceased
Honus Wagner 1922 92.86% 1 Shortstop Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1897-1917 21 Living – Age 65 48
Bobby Wallace 1925 75.00% 3 Shortstop St. Louis Browns (AL) 1894-1918 25 Living - Age 66 52
Ed Walsh 1922 89.29% 1 Pitcher Chicago White Sox (AL) 1904-1917 14 Living – Age 58 41
John Ward 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop/Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1878-1894 17 Deceased (1860-1925) 47
Mickey Welch* 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1892 13 Living – Age 80 61
Zack Wheat 1932 87.50% 1 Left Field Brooklyn Robins (Dodgers) (NL) 1909-1927 19 Living - Age 51 44
Deacon White^ 1904 76.00% 4 Catcher/Third Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1871-1890 20 Deceased (1847-1939) 57
Vic Willis 1919 77.78% 5 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1898-1910 13 Living – Age 63 43
George Wright^ 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1882 12 Deceased (1847-1937) 60
Cy Young 1916 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1890-1911 22 Living – Age 72 49

* = Elected by Veterans Committee
^ = Played Significantly Prior to 1871

Players Elected by Primary Position
Catcher (5): Charlie Bennett, Roger Bresnahan, Buck Ewing, Cal McVey, Deacon White
First Base (7): Cap Anson, Jake Beckley, Dan Brouthers, Frank Chance, Roger Connor, George Sisler, Joe Start
Second Base (7): Ross Barnes, Cupid Childs, Eddie Collins, Larry Doyle, Napoleon Lajoie, Bid McPhee, Hardy Richardson
Third Base (4): Frank Baker, Jimmy Collins, Heinie Groh, Ezra Sutton
Shortstop (10): Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Jack Glasscock, Hughie Jennings, Herman Long, Dickey Pearce, Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace, John Ward, George Wright
Left Field (8): Jesse Burkett, Fred Clarke, Ed Delahanty, Joe Kelley, Sherry Magee, Jim O'Rourke, Harry Stovey, Zack Wheat
Center Field (11): Pete Browning, Max Carey, Ty Cobb, Hugh Duffy, George Gore, Billy Hamilton, Paul Hines, Lip Pike, Jimmy Ryan, Tris Speaker, George Van Haltren
Right Field (6): Sam Crawford, King Kelly, Elmer Flick, Harry Heilmann, Willie Keeler, Sam Thompson
Pitcher (22): Pete Alexander, Mordecai Brown, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Stan Coveleski, Pud Galvin, Walter Johnson, Addie Joss, Tim Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Tony Mullane, Kid Nichols, Eddie Plank, Charley Radbourn, Amos Rusie, Al Spalding, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh, Mickey Welch, Vic Willis, Cy Young

Players Elected by Year
1901 (5): Dan Brouthers, John Clarkson, Tim Keefe, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn
1902 (4): Cap Anson, Roger Connor, Buck Ewing, King Kelly
1903 (1): Pud Galvin
1904 (2): Paul Hines, Deacon White
1905 (1): Bid McPhee
1906 (2): Billy Hamilton, Amos Rusie
1907 (5): Charlie Bennett, Harry Stovey, Sam Thompson, John Ward, George Wright
1908 (2): Ed Delahanty, Tony Mullane
1909 (3): Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, George Gore
1910 (1): Jesse Burkett
1911 (3): Ross Barnes, Jack Glasscock, Kid Nichols
1912 (0):
1913 (2): Jimmy Collins, Joe McGinnity
1914 (1): George Davis
1915 (2): Al Spalding, Rube Waddell
1916 (4): Bill Dahlen, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Cy Young
1917 (2): Jake Beckley, Fred Clarke
1918 (2): Hugh Duffy, George Van Haltren
1919 (1): Vic Willis
1920 (2): Cupid Childs, Joe Kelley
- 1920 VC (7): Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Hardy Richardson, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Mickey Welch
1921 (3): Mordecai Brown, Napoleon Lajoie, Christy Mathewson
1922 (4): Sam Crawford, Eddie Plank, Honus Wagner, Ed Walsh
1923 (0):
1924 (1): Sherry Magee
1925 (2): Roger Bresnahan, Bobby Wallace
- 1925 VC (1): Herman Long
1926 (1): Larry Doyle
1927 (2): Frank Baker, Hughie Jennings
1928 (0):
1929 (1): Addie Joss
1930 (0):
- 1930 VC (1): Jimmy Ryan
1931 (0):
1932 (3): Frank Chance, Walter Johnson, Zack Wheat
1933 (2): Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker
1934 (2): Max Carey, Stan Coveleski
1935 (3): Pete Alexander, Eddie Collins, George Sisler
- 1935 VC (0):
1936 (1): Heinie Groh
1937 (1): Harry Heilmann
1938 (0):

Players Elected by Primary Decade
1870s (9): Ross Barnes, Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Al Spalding, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Deacon White, George Wright
1880s (21): Cap Anson, Charlie Bennett, Dan Brouthers, Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Roger Conner, Buck Ewing, Pud Galvin, Jack Glasscock, George Gore, Paul Hines, Tim Keefe, King Kelly, Tony Mullane, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn, Hardy Richardson, Harry Stovey, John Ward, Mickey Welch
1890s (17): Jake Beckley, Jesse Burkett, Cupid Childs, Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Ed Delahanty, Hugh Duffy, Billy Hamilton, Hughie Jennings, Joe Kelley, Herman Long, Bid McPhee, Kid Nichols, Jimmy Ryan, Amos Rusie, Sam Thompson, George Van Haltren
1900s (19): Roger Bresnahan, Mordecai Brown, Frank Chance, Fred Clarke, Jimmy Collins, Sam Crawford, Elmer Flick, Addie Joss, Willie Keeler, Napoleon Lajoie, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Eddie Plank, Rube Waddell, Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace, Ed Walsh, Vic Willis, Cy Young
1910s (12): Pete Alexander, Frank Baker , Max Carey, Ty Cobb, Eddie Collins, Larry Doyle, Heinie Groh, Walter Johnson, Sherry Magee, Tris Speaker, Zack Wheat
1920s (3): Stan Coveleski, Harry Heilmann, George Sisler

Players Elected by Primary Organization
Baltimore Canaries (NA) (1): Lip Pike
Baltimore Orioles (NL) (3): Hughie Jennings, Willie Keeler, Joe Kelley
Boston Braves (fka Beaneaters) (NL) (6): John Clarkson, Hugh Duffy, Herman Long, Kid Nichols, Ezra Sutton, Vic Willis
Boston Red Sox (fka Americans) (AL) (2): Jimmy Collins, Cy Young
Boston Red Stockings (NA) (4): Ross Barnes, Cal McVey, Al Spalding, George Wright
Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) (1): Dickey Pearce
Brooklyn Dodgers (fka Robins) (1): Zack Wheat
Buffalo Bisons (NL) (4): Dan Brouthers, Pud Galvin, Hardy Richardson, Deacon White
Chicago Cubs (fka White Stockings, Colts) (NL) (7): Cap Anson, Mordecai Brown, Frank Chance, Bill Dahlen, George Gore, King Kelly, Jimmy Ryan
Chicago White Sox (AL) (2): Eddie Collins, Ed Walsh
Cincinnati Reds (NL, AA) (3): Heinie Groh, Bid McPhee, Tony Mullane
Cleveland Blues (NL) (1): Jack Glasscock
Cleveland Indians (fka Naps) (AL) (5): Stan Coveleski, Elmer Flick, Addie Joss, Napoleon Lajoie, Tris Speaker
Cleveland Spiders (NL) (2): Jesse Burkett, Cupid Childs
Detroit Tigers (AL) (3): Ty Cobb, Sam Crawford, Harry Heilmann
Detroit Wolverines (NL) (1): Charlie Bennett
Louisville Colonels (NL, AA) (1): Pete Browning
New York Giants (NL) (13): Roger Bresnahan, Roger Connor, George Davis, Larry Doyle, Buck Ewing, Tim Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Jim O’Rourke, Amos Rusie, George Van Haltren, John Ward, Mickey Welch
Philadelphia Athletics (AL) (3): Frank Baker, Eddie Plank, Rube Waddell
Philadelphia Athletics (AA) (1): Harry Stovey
Philadelphia Phillies (NL) (5): Pete Alexander, Ed Delahanty, Billy Hamilton, Sherry Magee, Sam Thompson
Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) (4): Jake Beckley, Max Carey, Fred Clarke, Honus Wagner
Providence Grays (NL) (3): Paul Hines, Charley Radbourn, Joe Start
St. Louis Browns (AL) (2): George Sisler, Bobby Wallace
St. Louis Cardinals (fka Browns) (NL, AA) (1): Bob Caruthers
Washington Senators (AL) (1): Walter Johnson

Miscellaneous Information
- Highest Regular Election Percentage: Cap Anson, Walter Johnson, Kid Nichols, Tris Speaker, Cy Young – 100%
- Number of 1st Ballot Electees: 38
- Number of Electees with At Least 90% Support: 25
- Average Regular Election Percentage: 84.97%
- Most Years on Ballot Before Election: Cupid Childs, Addie Joss, Al Spalding – 15
- Number of Players Elected After 10 Years on Ballot: 8
- Average Wait Before Election: 3.89 Years
- Number of Players Lasting 15 Years on Ballot without Election: 24
- Number of Players Elected by Veterans Committee: 9
- Average Electees per Veterans Committee Election: 2.25
- Highest Percentage Among Players Not Elected: 66.67% - Tommy Leach (1933), Rabbit Maranville (1938)
- Highest Average Percentage Among Players Not Elected: 66.67% - Rabbit Maranville (1938)
- Most Regular Election Electees in One Year: 5 (1901, 1907)
- Fewest Regular Election Electees in One Year: 0 (1912, 1923, 1928, 1930, 1931, 1938)
- Average Regular Election Electees Per Year: 1.92
- Largest Ballot: 78 Players (1901)
- Largest Post-1915 Ballot: 47 Players (1932)
- Smallest Ballot: 23 Players (1918)
- Most Votes Cast: 34 (1937)
- Fewest Votes Cast: 20 (1901)
- Average Votes Cast: 26.27
- Team With Most Players Elected: New York Giants - 13
- Team With Second Most Players Elected: Chicago Cubs - 7
- Electee with Longest Post-1871 Career: Cap Anson – 27 Seasons
- Electee with Shortest Post-1871 Career: Dickey Pearce – 8 Seasons
- Average Post-1871 Career Length of Electees: 16.18 Seasons
- Youngest Elected Player: Amos Rusie – Age 35
- Oldest Elected Player: Joe Start – 78
- Average Age at Election: 47.88
- Number of Posthumously Elected Players: 15
- Number of Living Hall of Famers: 38
- Oldest Living Hall of Famer: Jack Glasscock - 82
- Deceased in Past Year: Deacon White

Number of Ballots Submitted in Past Elections
1901: 20
1902: 24
1903: 26
1904: 25
1905: 24
1906: 23
1907: 24
1908: 25
1909: 22
1910: 25
1911: 25
1912: 23
1913: 23
1914: 26
1915: 25
1916: 25
1917: 25
1918: 24
1919: 27
1920: 26
1921: 31
1922: 28
1923: 25
1924: 29
1925: 24
1926: 25
1927: 28
1928: 27
1929: 25
1930: 25
1931: 32
1932: 24
1933: 29
1934: 28
1935: 33
1936: 32
1937: 34
1938: 30

Links to Past Elections (10)
1901 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77167)
1902 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77464)
1903 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77797)
1904 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78133)
1905 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78417)
1906 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78737)
1907 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79020)
1908 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79393)
1909 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79738)
1910 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80134)
1911 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80597)
1912 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81008)
1913 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81477)
1914 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81965)
1915 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82365)
1916 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82681)
1917 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82940)
1918 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83241)
1919 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83422)
1920 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83665), 1920 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83697)
1921 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83924)
1922 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84099)
1923 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84257)
1924 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84423)
1925 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84552), 1925 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84636)
1926 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84727)
1927 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84871)
1928 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85029)
1929 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85206)
1930 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85358), 1930 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85439)
1931 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85681)
1932 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85850)
1933 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86054)
1934 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86291)
1935 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86514), 1935 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86576)
1936 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=1408310#post1408310)
1937 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87002)
1938 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87241)

Cowtipper

02-15-2009, 01:24 PM

Blue
Burns
Cravath
Grimes
Konetchy
Mays
Pratt
Veach

Senor Octobre

02-15-2009, 01:39 PM

D Bancroft
W Cooper
G Cravath
J Evers
R Faber
H Hooper
E Konetchy
R Maranville
C Mays
W Schang
J Sewell
U Shocker
H Vaughn
B Veach
C Williams

Full ballot again. I plan on adding Rice and Rixey in the future... maybe Wilson...

mwiggins

02-15-2009, 02:32 PM

Blue

Why Blue and not Sewell? They both had very similar offensive production in the same league in the same era, yet Sewell had 1,000 more PA's. Blue had a bit better OBP from his walks, while Sewell hit for a much better average and had a bit better SLG. Both had an OPS+ of 109, and their OWP were very close - .572 for Sewell and .565 for Blue. And Sewell was maybe the hardest player in history to strikeout, for what that's worth.

Sewell got more love from MVP voters, he rec'd votes 7 times vs. Blue's 4. And he played for two WS champs while Blue never made the post season.

And most importantly, Sewell was a shortshop/third basemen, while Blue was a first basemen. If Blue's #'s are good enough as a first basemen to get in, why aren't very similar #'s good enough for a shortstop like Sewell?

Seems like Sewell would be a no-brainer for someone who's voting for Blue.

jalbright

02-15-2009, 02:38 PM

Wilbur Cooper
Red Faber
Burleigh Grimes
Rabbit Maranville
Carl Mays
Sam Rice
Eppa Rixey
Joe Sewell
Hack Wilson

philkid3

02-15-2009, 03:14 PM

Rabbit Maranville
Joe Sewell
Bobby Veach
Ross Youngs

I'm extremely close on Sam Rice, but not certain yet. He has 14 years to make me certain, so no rush.

I do believe that makes this the first year I haven't added someone new.

Brad Harris

02-15-2009, 03:17 PM

Burns
Cooper
Cravath
Evers
Faber
Grimes
Konetchy
Maranville
Mays
Pennock
Rice
Rixey
Schang
Sewell
Veach

Sockeye

02-15-2009, 03:33 PM

Here is my "would be" ballot

1. Hack Wilson
2. Bobby Veach
3. Sam Rice
4. Gavvy Cravath
5. Burleigh Grimes
6. Red Faber
7. George J. Burns

DoubleX

02-15-2009, 03:53 PM

I'm extremely close on Sam Rice, but not certain yet. He has 14 years to make me certain, so no rush.

People who like counting numbers will probably like Rice. His 2987 hits currently rank 6th all time behind only true giants of the game - Cobb, Speaker, Anson, Collins, and Lajoie. The most impressive aspect of Rice's feat is that he did it despite not playing a full Major League season until age 27 and not having his second full season until age 29. Some will say that he was just a compiler, whic is certainly true to some extent, but if getting that many hits is so easy, why haven't we seen more players do it? It says something about Rice's ability, IMO, particularly given his late start. His biggest problem though is that he didn't walk much, and that will likely be held against him by some voters. However, in a high average league, there might have been less incentive to work walks as much and instead fill OBP with BA. Basically, if Rice attempted to walk more, he may not have hit as much as he did and his overall OBP may have been about the same as it is anyway.

Also, if one were to put any stock in the Hall of Fame Standards and Monitor measures, he's likely within the standards we've set among corner OFers.

mwiggins

02-15-2009, 04:09 PM

People who like counting numbers will probably like Rice. His 2987 hits currently rank 6th all time behind only true giants of the game - Cobb, Speaker, Anson, Collins, and Lajoie. The most impressive aspect of Rice's feat is that he did it despite not playing a full Major League season until age 27 and not having his second full season until age 29.

And he most likely would have gotten 3,000 if they'd have known that 3,000 hits would be special back when he retired in 1934. He was still a fairly productive player in his last year. If he'd have played in later years, he'd have for sure came back as a pinch hitter if nothing else and gotten to 3,000.

He's very close for me as well, but I just couldn't pull the trigger this time. I expect him to probably be on my next year's ballot, unless somebody convinces me otherwise this cycle.

mwiggins

02-15-2009, 04:09 PM

Wally Schang
Joe Sewell
Ross Youngs
Hack Wilson

DoubleX

02-15-2009, 06:32 PM

And he most likely would have gotten 3,000 if they'd have known that 3,000 hits would be special back when he retired in 1934. He was still a fairly productive player in his last year. If he'd have played in later years, he'd have for sure came back as a pinch hitter if nothing else and gotten to 3,000.

He's very close for me as well, but I just couldn't pull the trigger this time. I expect him to probably be on my next year's ballot, unless somebody convinces me otherwise this cycle.

Stepping out of our historical context for a moment, that's something that is misleading about the rarity of 3000 hits. Surely Rice would have stuck around to get there if the feat was so celebrated in his day or if he played 162 game schedules. I believe Sam Crawford said later in his life that if he knew 3000 hits would become a big deal, he would have stuck around to get the 39 extra hits. Figure with 162 game schedules and the modern hoopla around 3000 hits, the following players may very well have reached the number:

Sam Rice: Needed 13 hits
Sam Crawford: Needed 39 hits
Frank Robinson: Needed 57 hits (though he played when 3000 was more celebrated)
Willie Keeler: Needed 68 hits
Jake Beckley: Needed 70 hits
Rogers Hornsby: Needed 70 hits
Al Simmons: Needed 73 hits
Zack Wheat: Needed 116 hits
Frank Frisch: Needed 120 hits
Mel Ott: Needed 124 hits
Babe Ruth: Needed 127 hits
Jesse Burkett: Needed 150 hits
Charlie Gehringer: Needed 161 hits
George Sisler: Needed 188 hits

Now of course not all of these players would have got there, as some of these players were pretty much as done as they could be when they hung them up, but I believe the majority probably would have stuck around like Craig Biggio and Wade Boggs to scrap out the remaining hits.

AstrosFan

02-15-2009, 06:38 PM

Faber
Grimes
Rixey

mwiggins

02-15-2009, 07:15 PM

Senor Octobre

02-15-2009, 07:38 PM

Looks like we very well could be on our way to a second straight inductee-less year.

vtbub

02-15-2009, 08:11 PM

Maranville
Mays
Wilson

philkid3

02-15-2009, 08:28 PM

Why did Rice reach the majors so late?

Ubiquitous

02-15-2009, 08:46 PM

Sam Rice did not have a pleasant start to his life.

Sam grew up on a farm got married and had some kids. In 1912 he joined his first professional minor league team. He came up as a pitcher. That first year in the minors early in the season a tornado came through town while he was out with the team in a road game. His family was killed. Afterwards he joined the Navy. While on leave in 1915 he signed with a minor league team that gave him some innings. later in the season they purchased his contract from the Navy and then later on that year Griffith of the Senators bought his contract.

STLCards2

02-15-2009, 09:32 PM

Sewell
Rixey
Faber
Maranville

DoubleX

02-15-2009, 10:33 PM

I posted this at the end of the 1938 election - this will the last year where the 5% rule will be suspended for 1st year eligible players. Next year the rule will apply to everyone. The ballot is already pretty cluttered with holdovers so this will help clean it up a little.

Sockeye

02-16-2009, 11:48 AM

Lets discuss the merits of Hack Wilson. It seems to me that he isn't getting the consideration he deserves. Perhaps I can do something to change that. Looking at the eleven centerfielders that have already been elected it appears to me that Wilson has a stronger case than at least four of them (Lip Pike, Max Carey, George Gore, & Paul Hines)

Lets compare some of the numbers

OPS+

Wilson 144
Hines 131
Gore 135
Carey 107
Pike 155

RC/G

Wilson 8.0
Hines 5.3
Gore 6.0
Carey 5.1
Pike 6.3

OWP

Wilson .715
Hines .650
Gore .691
Carey .593
Pike .688

Batting Runs

Wilson 317.3
Hines 262.9
Gore 270.9
Carey 118.1
Pike 120.0

Batting Wins

Wilson 29.6
Hines 28.6
Gore 28.8
Carey 12.2
Pike 12.5

FRAR

Wilson 53
Hines 160
Gore 216
Carey 295
Pike 36

Black Ink

Wilson 31
Hines 30
Gore 19
Carey 32
Pike 26

Gray ink

Wilson 110
Hines 186
Gore 125
Carey 148
Pike 120

HOF Standards

Wilson 39.0
Hines 29.1
Gore 31.0
Carey 36.0
Pike 23.0

HOF Monitor

Wilson 100.0
Hines 51.0
Gore 56.0
Carey 76.5
Pike 37.0

EQA

Wilson .308
Hines .286
Gore .294
Carey .272
Pike .303

WARP1

Wilson 74.7
Hines 116.8
Gore 105.2
Carey 141.6
Pike 37.4

WARP2

Wilson 56.9
Hines 68.3
Gore 69.1
Carey 85.5
Pike 22.9

WARP3

Wilson 58.9
Hines 105.3
Gore 91.9
Carey 89.5
Pike 51.1

WARP3 (top 5)

Wilson 9.0, 8.9, 8.5, 7.3, 7.1 (40.8)
Hines 11.8, 10.3, 8.9, 8.7, 8.2 (47.9)
Gore 11.7, 9.5, 8.8, 8.3, 8.0 (46.3)
Carey 8.2, 7.6, 6.9, 6.8, 6.5 (36.0)
Pike 11.8, 10.3, 7.4, 6.3, 4.9 (40.7)

Win Shares

Wilson 224
Hines 249
Gore 250
Carey 351
Pike 100 (est)

Win Shares (top 5)

Wilson 35, 32, 31, 28, 26 (152)
Hines 28, 22, 19, 18, 18 (105)
Gore 30, 26, 24, 23, 22 (125)
Carey 29, 29, 26, 25, 25 (134)
Pike 19, 17, 12, 10, 8 (66) (est)

For the record I support Carey, Gore, & Hines induction into the HOF. Wilson deserves to be there as well.

henrich

02-16-2009, 11:53 AM

Faber
gardner
Grimes
hooper
marquard
mays
meusel
pennock
quinn
rice
rixey
schang
sewell
vaughn
wilson

Ubiquitous

02-16-2009, 12:10 PM

Lip Pike, George Gore, Paul Hines, Max Carey.

Of the four only Carey is a contemporary. The other 3 are deeply embedded in the 19th century. According to the setup of this site we vote on players as they become eligible and are supposed to view them based on how they were viewed at that time. We are not supposed to view them as if it is 60 years later or on what players did 60 years later. Based on those supposition people felt that these early players were hall of famers when compared to the rest of baseball history, which includes them and their previous time. I don't agree that those three players are hall of famers but I can see the argument that based on what had happened up to that point they were HoF'ers.

Now along comes Hack Wilson and about 50 more years of baseball has been played by the time he is up for our election. So comparing him to 19th century HoF'ers is not accurate because 19th century HoF'ers only needed to become HoF'ers because of what they did against their peers which basically took place in the beginning of baseball whereas Hack needs to be better then his peers as well as better then those who came before him not just three or four players in the hall already. I don't think Hack does that very well.

Max played for a long time, was a good runner, got on base a good clip, and was a good fielder.

philkid3

02-16-2009, 06:22 PM

Brad Harris

02-16-2009, 06:47 PM

Thank you. The circumstances that began his career might be enough for me to put a borderline player on my ballot.
With all due respect, why is that?

philkid3

02-16-2009, 07:12 PM

With all due respect, why is that?

I'm extremely close on him, anyway. If his career got a late start -- with likely prime seasons cut in to -- because of personal tragedy and service time, that's enough for me to probably give him a nod.

It's not like I'm taking him from "probably not" to "yes." It's "probably" to "yes."

AG2004

02-16-2009, 08:13 PM

Rice seems to have everything you want in a Hall of Famer except for the big peak seasons. Lots of longevity, very durable, essentially 3,000+ hits, a .322 lifetime BA, 326 career Win Shares, very good defender and baserunner - but it's hard to look at him as anything more than a guy who was a very good player for a long time. He only got MVP votes once. He never finished top 10 in OPS+. Never finished higher than 7th in Runs Created. Never had more than 24 Win Shares in a single season.

IMO he's basically a slightly better version of Maranville. Or to step out of historical context for a second...he was a poor man's Ichiro.

I'd rate Maranville higher than Rice. There are some things which may cause the win shares system to underrate Maranville.

First, Maranville missed most of 1918 due to military service. His top four seasons in OPS+ were 1916, 1917, 1919, and 1920, and Maranville did have an OPS+ of 133 in 11 games in 1918, so he would gain quite a few win shares that year.

Second, the biggest weakness in the win shares system comes in evaluating fielding. The win shares system has Maranville as an A+ defensive shortstop, but, according to the system's creator, win shares may slightly underestimate the value of top defensive players.

Maranville finished 3rd in the 1913 MVP vote, and 2nd in 1914. The NL didn't have another MVP Award (or its equivalent) until 1924, when Maranville finished 7th. Observers at the time may have been seeing something that doesn't appear in the fielding statistics.

[OOC - Chris Dial has compared runs saved according to zone ratings and win share totals for Ozzie Smith during the later half of the later shortstop's career. The WS system underrates Smith by about one win share per 80 or 90 games played, but it varies; in 1988, defensive analysis through zone ratings would shift four or five win shares away from other Cardinals to Smith. We don't have zone ratings for Maranville's era, but Dial's analysis hints that Maranville was probably better than the win shares system indicates.]

AG2004

02-16-2009, 08:44 PM

Lip Pike, George Gore, Paul Hines, Max Carey.

Of the four only Carey is a contemporary. The other 3 are deeply embedded in the 19th century. . . . I don't agree that those three players are hall of famers but I can see the argument that based on what had happened up to that point they were HoF'ers.

Now along comes Hack Wilson and about 50 more years of baseball has been played by the time he is up for our election. So comparing him to 19th century HoF'ers is not accurate because 19th century HoF'ers only needed to become HoF'ers because of what they did against their peers which basically took place in the beginning of baseball whereas Hack needs to be better then his peers as well as better then those who came before him not just three or four players in the hall already. I don't think Hack does that very well.

Max played for a long time, was a good runner, got on base a good clip, and was a good fielder.

Gore and Hines are very deserving Hall of Famers. You might not be taking into accound that season lengths were much shorter during their time. Also, win shares has Gore as an A+ defensive outfielder. Hines has a rating of A- over his career, but his decline phase pulled him down; he earned seven win share gold gloves. Wilson, on the other hand, was a C+ defensive outfielder. The letter grades consider all outfielders, as the data available prevent us from separating center fielders from corner outfielders.

Making my schedule-length adjustments, we have a win shares line of 365-107-161 for Hines, and 322-109-146 for Gore. The adjustments were to 140-game seasons, not 154-game seasons, as they were very early players.

Wilson's peak lasted from 1926 to 1930; he declined precipitously in 1931, and never really came close to the peak years. It is worth noting that the NL deadened its baseballs between the 1930 and 1931 seasons. Both Al Lopez and Woody English observed that many of the balls which would have been home runs in Wrigley Field for Wilson in 1930 became fly balls to right-center, and hence outs, in 1931.

Wilson's borderline because of his short career. If his peak was dependent to a high degree on the type of baseball used, then his case is further weakened. I would like to see Wilson's home-road splits on a year-by-year basis to determine how much of his stardom was dependent on his environment.

Ubiquitous

02-16-2009, 09:52 PM

SavoyBG

02-16-2009, 11:01 PM

Season lengths is not the issue.
There is a reason why "Hall of Fames" are not created until a sport is well established and that is so perspective can be gained.

That's not the reason.

In baseball nobody had ever thought of a hall of fame in the earlier years. In other sports, a hall of fame was not necessary until the sports had shown that they would be around for a long time. Nobody ever said "let's wait and establish a hall of fame somewhere down the line so perspective can be gained."

The basketball hall of fame had its first inductees in 1959, just about a dozen years after the NBA started. Most of the early inductees were contributors from the early days of the games development, but George Mikan was inducted that year.

If somebody had thought of it there could have been a baseball hall of fame already in the 19th century, and they would have started by inducting early pioneers from before 1871. The main thing the late arrival of the baseball hall of fame did was to make it almost entirely a "major league" hall of fame, unlike the basketball hall of fame, which inducts ameteurs, college contributors, even high school contributors, as St. Anthony's High School coach Bobby Hurley is a finalist this year.

There is not set system for a hall of fame, as virtually ever hall of fame has different agendas.

Ubiquitous

02-16-2009, 11:12 PM

So. . . . .Well, that isn't the main reason but it is a primary offshoot of waiting

If you are going to quote me and then disagree with my viewpoint then you should quote the whole view point.

PVNICK

02-17-2009, 05:51 AM

Cooper, Evers, Mays, Shocker, Vaughn

AG2004

02-17-2009, 06:33 AM

Season lengths is not the issue.
There is a reason why "Hall of Fames" are not created until a sport is well established and that is so perspective can be gained. Well, that isn't the main reason but it is a primary offshoot of waiting. The leagues simply were not very good and at best you have "pioneers" who should be going in from that era.

Our Hall of Fame, which is located in Brooklyn, was established in 1901. The National Association of Base Ball Players was established in 1857; the more familiar NAPBBP began play in 1871. The sport was well established by the time we started our hall.

The failure to consider season length is an issue when we look at the statistics Sockeye posted. Your reply to those numbers didn't mention season length, so I assumed that you had not considered that weakness in his argument.

Ubiquitous

02-17-2009, 06:53 AM

Yes, it was well established and it is also quite clear based on who was elected that very early players were going to be recognized as HoF'ers regardless of how their legacy fared in the future.

Freakshow

02-17-2009, 07:51 AM

Nobody was elected. Burns was dropped. He was replaced by newbie Grimes.

Bancroft
W. Cooper
Cravath
Evers
Faber
Grimes
Hooper
Maranville
Mays
Quinn
Rixey
Schang
Sewell
Shocker
Veach

Brooklyn

02-17-2009, 07:57 AM

Sam Rice and Joe Sewell

KCGHOST

02-17-2009, 11:14 AM

Not much added with this group.

Ubiquitous

02-17-2009, 12:25 PM

It doesn't look like anyone is going in this time around. Even if the next 6 voters select the same guy it still won't be enough.

philkid3

02-17-2009, 01:58 PM

I was scanning next season's class and trying to figure out if we'd finally elect someone, and I was thinking the best shot was Earle Combs.

. . . I missed a pretty big name (and guy). . .

Freakshow

02-17-2009, 02:10 PM

Three players on this ballot are members of both the BBF Hall of Fame and the Hall of Merit: Red Faber, Eppa Rixey and Joe Sewell. All are also in Cooperstown's Hall via the VC.

Faber
Elected to the Coop: 1964
BBFHOF: 55th election, 224th player
HoM: 1939 - 1st year eligible, elected with Max Carey and ahead of 16 others later elected
Collaboration top 500: #231

Rixey
Elected to the Coop: 1963
BBFHOF: 57th election, 229th player
HoM: 1968 - 30th year eligible, elected with Richie Ashburn and ahead of 23 others later elected
Collaboration top 500: #205

Sewell
Elected to the Coop: 1977
BBFHOF: 56th election, 226th player
HoM: 1985 - 47th year eligible, elected with Jose Mendez and Bill Freehan, ahead of 19 others later elected
Collaboration top 500: #273

Freakshow

02-17-2009, 02:42 PM

I was scanning next season's class and trying to figure out if we'd finally elect someone, and I was thinking the best shot was Earle Combs.

. . . I missed a pretty big name (and guy). . .Yep, Dazzy Vance looms large next year. :D

Phish

02-17-2009, 03:28 PM

Rixey
Rice
Pennock: I will most likely be asked why I voted for him. He wasa key contributor to those great WS Yankees teams in the 20's and 30's. He went 5-0 in the WS with a 1.95 ERA. Sure his numbers may be skewed due to the teams he was on, but you cannot denyt that he was a great pitcher for a decent amount of time. He is pretty bottem of the barrell for me though and mst likely won't stay on my ballot.
Maranville
Wilson

I am not sold 100% on Sewell yet. Also, I missed Fabers name when voting, so he should be on my ballot

dgarza

02-17-2009, 06:23 PM

Dave Bancroft
George J Burns
Gavvy Cravath
Red Faber
Burleigh Grimes
Rube Marquard
Carl Mays
Herb Pennock
Sam Rice
Eppa Rixey
Joe Sewell
Bobby Veach
Ross Youngs
Cy Williams
Hack Wilson

1. Hack Wilson
2. Bobby Veach
3. Sam Rice
4. Burleigh Grimes
5. Carl Mays
6. Gavvy Cravath
7. Cy Williams
8. George J Burns
9. Red Faber
10. Joe Sewell
11. Ross Youngs
12. Eppa Rixey
13. Herb Pennock
14. Dave Bancroft
15. Rube Marquard

bambambaseball

02-18-2009, 04:20 PM

jjpm74

02-18-2009, 05:18 PM

Did you all hear or see Lou Gehrig's retirement speech? What a sad day for baseball. :cry:

Is he gonna be on the balott next year? Itd be nice to see him inducted while hes still alive. He doesnt have much time to live.

Indeed, it's very sad news. It's DoubleX's call as to whether or not to make a special allowance for Lou Gehrig next year given his medical condition.

On a separate note, I'm curious as to why both you and Cowtipper support Lu Blue? I don't see anything about him that makes him stand out.

DoubleX

02-18-2009, 05:33 PM

Indeed, it's very sad news. It's DoubleX's call as to whether or not to make a special allowance for Lou Gehrig next year given his medical condition.

Very sad indeed. However, we have not expedited the wait period in the past, with Ed Delahanty perhaps being the most notable case where it would have been considered, so we will not now.

bambambaseball

02-18-2009, 06:22 PM

Very sad indeed. However, we have not expedited the wait period in the past, with Ed Delahanty perhaps being the most notable case where it would have been considered, so we will not now.

But theyre not even close to the same thing. Delehanty died suddenly. Gehrig is dieing. Hes not dead yet. The reall hall wanted to honor him when he was still alive. How come we cant? :sleepy:

DoubleX

02-18-2009, 06:29 PM

But theyre not even close to the same thing. Delehanty died suddenly. Gehrig is dieing. Hes not dead yet. The reall hall wanted to honor him when he was still alive. How come we cant? :sleepy:

In the context of 1939, I don't believe the public was certain that Gehrig was dying or really knew the extent of his illness.

Ubiquitous

02-18-2009, 07:07 PM

This is a fictitious vote. we aren't solving world peace here. Lou Gehrig is dead and he doesn't care about our vote. He isn't going to show up next week and thank us all for inducting him. Some are trying to make mountains out of molehills here.

bambambaseball

02-18-2009, 07:42 PM

In the context of 1939, I don't believe the public was certain that Gehrig was dying or really knew the extent of his illness.

How come he was inducted to the HOF the same year he retired then?

jjpm74

02-20-2009, 08:42 AM

With 2 days left, there are four decent candidates sitting on goose eggs:

Muddy Ruel (http://www.thedeadballera.com/Obits/Ruel.Muddy.Obit.html)
Joe Judge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Judge)
George Grantham (http://www.thebaseballpage.com/players/grantge01.php)
Marty McManus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marty_McManus)

While Lu Blue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu_Blue) who doesn't appear to be any better than the above 4 sits pretty with 2 votes in his second year on the ballot. :shrug:

leecemark

02-20-2009, 08:53 AM

--You can be a better candidate than Lu Blue and still not be a decent candidate. None of the above have any place in a serious Hall of Fame discussion.

jjpm74

02-20-2009, 09:19 AM

--You can be a better candidate than Lu Blue and still not be a decent candidate. None of the above have any place in a serious Hall of Fame discussion.

That's the point I'm trying to illustrate. In the Top 500 collaboration game, I don't remember even seeing Lu Blue's name show up in discussions. The fact that he will probably make it onto a 3rd ballot is a real head scratcher.

DoubleX

02-22-2009, 07:41 AM

AG2004

02-22-2009, 10:35 AM

My ballot:

George J. Burns
Wilbur Cooper
Urban Faber
Burleigh Grimes
Rabbig Maranville
Carl Mays
Eppa Rixey
Joe Sewell
Hack Wilson

[OOC - The standards here are slighlty lower than those of the BBFHOF. Hence Wilson and Sewell make my ballot.]

jjpm74

02-22-2009, 11:52 AM

Here's who I have eligible for 1940:

Larry Benton
Huck Betts - Likely won't be on ballot
Max Bishop
Earle Combs
Adam Comorosky - Likely won't be on ballot
Hughie Critz
Sam Jones
Willie Kamm
Dolf Luque
Heinie Mueller - Likely won't be on ballot
Bob O'Farrell
George Pipgras - Likely won't be on ballot
Babe Ruth
Lefty Stewart - May not be on ballot
Zack Taylor - Likely won't be on ballot
Dazzy Vance
Glenn Wright

Ruth's a likely unanimous ballot shoe in. Vance gets my vote and I'm hoping he eventually gets in. It'll be interesting to see what this community does with Earle Combs who is probably the worst mistake in the HOF. Luque is worth some discussion and may get some support from the Chief Bender crowd.

DoubleX

02-22-2009, 12:07 PM

It'll be interesting to see what this community does with Earle Combs who is probably the worst mistake in the HOF.

Combs was not a good selection in Cooperstown, but I find his selection less offensive than a number of others who were selected, and certainly not the worst.

Ace Venom

02-22-2009, 12:47 PM

Full Ballot:

George Burns
Johnny Evers
Red Faber
Burleigh Grimes
Harry Hooper
Joe Judge
George Kelly
Ed Konetchy
Rabbit Maranville
Carl Mays
Herb Pennock
Sam Rice
Ray Schalk
Hippo Vaughn
Hack Wilson

Senor Octobre

02-22-2009, 12:47 PM

Combs was not a good selection in Cooperstown, but I find his selection less offensive than a number of others who were selected, and certainly not the worst.

Am I missing something with Combs? I know he benefited from the liveball era and an incredible lineup, but to me he seems to be only a minor mistake at worst. I know he had a weak throwing arm but wasn't he a good defensive CF by other measures? Even taking into acount the era he played in, his OPS+ was 126, not too shabby at all for a CF. I now he catches a lot of flack on this board but for jjpm74 to call him the worst mistake in the Hall seems way off the mark to me.

jjpm74

02-22-2009, 01:52 PM

Combs was not a good selection in Cooperstown, but I find his selection less offensive than a number of others who were selected, and certainly not the worst.

Who would you rank lower than Combs? Combs was one of only a handful of HOFers who didn't even get mentioned in the top 500 collaboration project. The only other ones I can think of are Judy Johnson, Rick Ferrell and Tommy McCarthy or if we're also including contributors, Morgan Bulkeley, and Bowie Kuhn.

jalbright

02-22-2009, 02:20 PM

Am I missing something with Combs? I know he benefited from the liveball era and an incredible lineup, but to me he seems to be only a minor mistake at worst. I know he had a weak throwing arm but wasn't he a good defensive CF by other measures? Even taking into acount the era he played in, his OPS+ was 126, not too shabby at all for a CF. I now he catches a lot of flack on this board but for jjpm74 to call him the worst mistake in the Hall seems way off the mark to me.

Just among OF and 1B, Combs has competition from George Kelly, Tommy McCarthy, Chick Hafey and Lloyd Waner as worse. I think I'd rather have Combs than that bunch. That said, Combs wasn't very good by HOF standards. We can't really consider All-Star and MVP award shares for him, since those awards didn't exist for a lot of his career. You'd like to see an OF or 1B well within the top 140 hitters all time (we've got about 140 MLB position players in the Hall, but that includes middle infielders and catchers, who don't generally do well in those measures), and Combs is 304th in black ink, 299th in gray ink, and 172d in HOF standards. That's not HOF caliber by any means. In win shares, I look at career, best three seasons, and top five consecutive seasons, and like to see a guy in the top 20 at his position. Well, Combs is the 44th CF in career win shares, 34th in his best 3 seasons in win shares, and 29th in his best five consecutive win shares. Basically, he really doesn't have any of the credentials I'd like to see in a HOF CFer. To me, that makes his selection a rather clear mistake.

BigRon

02-22-2009, 02:48 PM

I don't know if I beat the deadline- just saw this for the first time.

Several guys are close, in my mind, but they all remain eligible and I'm not confident about any of them.

Therefore, my ballot (if it is counted) has NO votes.

I'm pretty close on Rice, Mays, Grimes, Faber, but need to think more about them. So, NO votes.

DoubleX

02-22-2009, 02:51 PM

Who would you rank lower than Combs? Combs was one of only a handful of HOFers who didn't even get mentioned in the top 500 collaboration project. The only other ones I can think of are Judy Johnson, Rick Ferrell and Tommy McCarthy or if we're also including contributors, Morgan Bulkeley, and Bowie Kuhn.

The group Jim mentioned sprang to my mind also - George Kelly (who is the worst, IMO), Tommy McCarthy, Chick Hafey, and Lloyd Waner. I'd put Combs somewhere among a slightly higher group, with players such as Ray Schalk, Rick Ferrell, Freddie Lindstrom, Joe Tinker, Harry Hooper, and Travis Jackson, but slightly below the likes of George Kell, Dave Bancroft, Kiki Cuyler, and Jim Bottomley. I think there are too many players in the discussion for Combs to be isolated as "probably the worst mistake"

Freakshow

02-22-2009, 08:27 PM

Combs is not among the ten worst players in the Hall. He got a late start to his pro career, after graduating from Eastern Kentucky and becoming a school teacher. He signed with Louisville in 1922 at nearly age 23 and was an immediate star. He certainly deserves credit for his 1923 season, leading the AA with 241 hits, including 75 XBH, batting .380, slugging .566 with 145 RBI and 127 runs.

The Yankees purchased him for $50,000 plus a player. He got off to a great start in 1924, a 158 OPS+ in 24 games, when he broke his ankle and missed the rest of the season. His 1927 was a MVP-type season, with 31 win shares and 9.8 WARP3. Another great year followed in 1928 (28 WS, 7.9 W3). A severe run-in with an outfield wall in 1934 effectively ended his career. He was a coach in MLB for most of the next 20 years. He had an exemplary postseason record, with a .894 OPS in 16 games. Also high marks in the character department, per his SABR bio.

Not a hall of famer, but not the worst. Very similar to Tony Oliva.

Brad Harris

02-22-2009, 10:03 PM

Also high marks in the character department, per his SABR bio.
I defy you to prove he wasn't on the juice. :rolleyes:

bambambaseball

02-23-2009, 01:01 PM

Bring on 1940! :waving :D