1941 Best of Baseball election

[jalbright]

This is our sixth election in this project. The entire rules follow. This will be our first year of electing "only" three candidates.

This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EST February 27, 2009.

The prior election, and the ballots of the 1940 voters, are in this thread (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87061)

[jalbright]

Rules

1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance, or only the first vote will be counted. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, I request that you PM me (jalbright) to ensure that I am aware of the change(s) or make a separate posting in the voting thread. You must let me know the players involved in the changes at a minimum, but it would also help if you added their rankings (before and after). I cannot agree to be responsible for monitoring the thread for any changes voters might make. If I catch them, fine, but if I don't and am not notified, the official count will be what I have been notified of, not what is on the thread.

7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

9) Each election will run for two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

10) No one is ineligible, nor are players from any league ineligible. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project. Candidates will not lose eligiblity after becoming eligible except by being elected as either a contributor or player.

11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing this standard, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. However, voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however.

14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 3-2-1 or whatever is appropriate system. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, take those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

20) I reserve the right to hold both 19th century and Negro League special elections in 2000 if we don't have a sufficient number in those categories by then. These elections probably will be limited to voters I feel are appropriately versed on the group of players to be considered. I do wish to only use this as a last resort, however, and only to ensure that those groups received what I regard as at least adequate bare minimum representation. I do not plan on sharing with you what I consider to meet those bare minimum standards, but I think that the numbers I am thinking of are well below the number of candidates that well informed observers believe are well qualified candidates from each group.

21) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

22) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread

[jalbright]

There are no new contributors this year. The list of newly eligible players is:


Blades , Ray
Boley , Joe
Dykes , Jimmy
Harris , Bucky
Hornsby , Rogers
McGowan , Bill
Meusel , Bob
Mostil , Johnny
O'Farrell , Bob
Perkins , Cy
Ruel , Muddy
Sherdel , Bill
Walberg , Rube
Zachary , Tom

[jalbright]

The 1940 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the 1940 election:


player...... votes points
Keefe , Tim 11 90
Brown , M 12 82
Wright , George 10 61
White , Deacon 12 60
Santop , Louis 10 56
Ward , John M. 8 51
Burkett , Jesse 10 50
Dahlen , Bill 11 41
Hines , Paul 6 40
Barnes , Ross 6 38
Jackson , Joe 4 34
Collins , Jimmy 6 32
Rusie , Amos 6 30
Sisler , George 4 22
Clarke , Fred 4 19
Sutton , Ezra 2 19
Start , Joe 2 15
Thompson , Sam 3 15
Bennett , C 3 13
Radbourn , C 2 13
Grant , Frank 1 10
Carey , Max 2 8
Galvin , Pud 1 7
Roush , Edd 3 7
Caruthers , B 2 6
Wheat , Zack 2 6
Magee , Sherry 1 4
Pennock, Herb 1 4
Keeler , Willie 1 3
Spalding , Al 1 2
Flick , Elmer 1 1
Stovey , Harry 1 1


The 1940 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the 1940 election:


Contributor votes points
Adams , Doc 10 37
Hulbert , W 12 32
Cartwright , Al 8 31
Johnson , Ban 11 26
Spalding , Al 10 25
Creighton , Jim 7 20
Landis , K 2 8
Chance , Frank 1 5
Cummings , C 1 4
Gleason, Kid 1 3
Hanlon , Ned 1 2
Klem, Bill.... 1 2
Reach , A. J. 1 2
Richter , F 2 2
Taylor , C. I. 1 2
Barrow , Ed 1 1
Clarke , Fred 1 1
Conlan , C 1 1
Pearce, Dickey 1 1


I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.

[jalbright]

Members of the Best of Baseball Hall:

Players

Pete Alexander
Cap Anson
Frank Baker
Dan Brouthers
John Clarkson
Ty Cobb
Eddie Collins
Roger Connor
Sam Crawford
George Davis
Ed Delahanty
Buck Ewing
Billy Hamilton
Harry Heilmann
Walter Johnson
King Kelly
Nap LaJoie
Pop Lloyd
Christy Mathewson
Kid Nichols
Jim O'Rourke
Eddie Plank
Bullet Joe Rogan
Babe Ruth
Tris Speaker
Cristobal Torriente
Honus Wagner
Ed Walsh
Smoky Joe Williams
Cy Young


Contributors

Henry Chadwick
Rube Foster
Connie Mack
John McGraw
Harry Wright


These folks are no longer eligible for any elections.

[jalbright]

The complete list of eligible players:


Adams , Babe
Adams , Sparky
Altrock , Nick
Archer , Jimmy
Austin , Jimmy
Bancroft , Dave
Barnes , Ross
Barry , Jack
Battin , Joe
Beaumont , Ginger
Beckley , Jake
Bender , Chief
Bennett , Charlie
Bergen , Marty
Bigbee , Carson
Blades , Ray
Bodie , Ping
Boley , Joe
Bond , Tommy
Bradley , Bill
Breitenstein , Ted
Bresnahan , Roger
Brown , Mordecai
Browning , Pete
Burkett , Jesse
Burns , George J.
Bush , Joe
Bush , Donie
Cadore , Leon
Camnitz , Howie
Carey , Max
Carrigan , Bill
Caruthers , Bob
Chance , Frank
Chapman , Ray
Chase , Hal
Chesbro , Jack
Childs , Cupid
Cicotte , Eddie
Clarke , Fred
Coakley , Andy
Collins , Jimmy
Collins , Shano
Conroy , Wid
Coombs , Jack
Cooper , Wilbur
Coveleski , Stan
Crandall , Doc
Cravath , Gavvy
Creighton , Jim
Criger , Lou
Cross , Lave
Cruise , Walt
Cummings , Candy
Dahlen , Bill
Daubert , Jake
Davis , Harry
Dinneen , Bill
Doak , Bill
Donlin , Mike
Donovan , Bill
Dooin , Red
Doyle , Jack
Doyle , Larry
Duffy , Hugh
Dunlap , Fred
Dykes , Jimmy
Ehmke , Howard
Elberfeld , Kid
Ens , Jewel
Evers , Johnny
Faber , Red
Falkenberg , Cy
Fletcher , Art
Flick , Elmer
Foster , Eddie
Fraser , Chick
Galvin , Pud
Glasscock , Jack
Gleason , Kid
Gonzalez , Mike
Gore , George
Gowdy , Hank
Grant , Eddie
Grant , Frank
Griffith , Clark
Grimes , Burleigh
Groh , Heinie
Hahn , Noodles
Haines , Jesse
Hargrave , Bubbles
Harris , Bucky
Herzog , Buck
Hill , Pete
Hinchman , Bill
Hines , Paul
Hooper , Harry
Hornsby , Rogers
Huggins , Miller
Irwin , Charlie
Jackson , Joe
Jennings , Hughie
Johnson , Home Run
Jones , Charley
Jones , Fielder
Jones , Sam P.
Jordan , Tim
Joss , Addie
Judge , Joe
Keefe , Tim
Keeler , Willie
Kelley , Joe
Kerr , Dickie
Killefer , Bill
Kilroy , Matt
Kling , Johnny
Knabe , Otto
Kremer , Ray
Lange , Bill
Larkin , Henry
Latham , Arlie
Leach , Tommy
Leever , Sam
Lewis , Duffy
Lobert , Hans
Long , Herman
Lowe , Bobby
Luque , Dolf
Lyons , Denny
Magee , Sherry
Maranville , Rabbit
Marquard , Rube
Mathews , Bobby
Mays , Carl
McAleer , Jimmy
McCarthy , Tommy
McCormick , Jim
McGinnity , Joe
McGowan , Bill
McInnis , Stuffy
McLean , Larry
McPhee , Bid
McVey , Cal
Meadows , Lee
Mendez , Jose
Meusel , Bob
Milan , Clyde
Miller , Bing
Miller , Dots
Miller , Hack
Moore , Dobie
Moran , Pat
Mostil , Johnny
Mullane , Tony
Murphy , Danny
Murray , Red
Nehf , Art
Oeschger , Joe
O'Farrell , Bob
O'Leary , Charlie
Oms , Alejandro
O'Neill , Steve
O'Neill , Tip
Orr , Dave
Pabor , Charlie
Paskert , Dode
Pearce , Dickey
Peckinpaugh , Roger
Peitz , Heinie
Pennock , Herb
Perdue , Hub
Perkins , Cy
Phillippe , Deacon
Pike , Lip
Pipp , Wally
Poles , Spotswood
Quinn , Jack
Radbourn , Charlie
Raymond , Bugs
Redding , Dick
Remsen , Jack
Rice , Sam
Richardson , Hardy
Ring , Jimmy
Ritchey , Claude
Rixey , Eppa
Robertson , Dave
Roush , Edd
Rucker , Nap
Rudolph , Dick
Ruel , Muddy
Rusie , Amos
Ryan , Jimmy
Santop , Louis
Schacht , Al
Schaefer , Germany
Schalk , Ray
Schang , Wally
Schreckengost , Ossie
Schulte , Frank
Scott , Everett
Scott , Jack
Severeid , Hank
Seymour , Cy
Sheckard , Jimmy
Sherdel , Bill
Shocker , Urban
Sisler , George
Smith , Sherry
Sparks , Tully
Spaulding , Al
Stahl , Jake
Start , Joe
Steinfeldt , Harry
Stovey , Harry
Street , Gabby
Sutton , Ezra
Sweeney , Bill
Tannehill , Jesse
Taylor , Ben
Tenney , Fred
Thomas , Ira
Thompson , Sam
Tiernan , Mike
Tinker , Joe
Toney , Fred
Turner , Terry
Van Haltren , George
Vance , Dazzy
Veach , Bobby
Waddell , Rube
Walberg , Rube
Wallace , Bobby
Wambsganss , Bill
Ward , John M.
Warfield , Frank
Welch , Mickey
Wheat , Zack
White , Deacon
White , Sol
White , Will
Williams , Cy
Williams , Ken
Williamson , Ned
Willis , Vic
Witt , Whitey
Wood , Joe
Wright , George
Yerkes , Steve
Young , Cy
Youngs , Ross
Zachary , Tom
Zimmer , Chief


The complete list of eligible contributors:


Abe , Iso
Adams , Doc
Bancroft , Frank
Barrow , Ed
Bulkely , Morgan
Cartwright , Alexander
Chance , Frank
Clarke , Fred
Commiskey , Charlie
Conlan , Charles
Connolly , Tom
Creighton , Jim
Cummings , Candy
Dreyfuss , Barney
Dunn , Jack
Elias , Al Munro
Gleason , Kid
Griffith , Clark
Hanlon , Ned
Huggins , Miller
Hulbert , William
Johnson , Ban
Klem , Bill
Landis , Kenesaw
Lardner , Ring
Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
McCarthy , Tommy
Mendez , Jose
Moran , Pat
Mutrie , Jim
Osborn , Frank
Reach , A. J.
Richter , Francis
Robinson , Wilbert
Selee , Frank
Shibe , Ben
Spalding , Al
Taylor , C. I.
Thayer , Ernest
Ward , John M.
Warfield , Frank
White , Sol
Wilson , Horace
Wright , George

[jalbright]

My ballot:

Players
1. Rogers Hornsby
2. John M. Ward
3. Amos Rusie
4. Mordecai Brown
5. Deacon White
6. Tim Keefe
7. Bill Dahlen
8. Jesse Burkett
9. Louis Santop
10. Sherry Magee
11. Zack Wheat
12. Paul Hines

Contributors
1. William Hulbert
2. Doc Adams
3. Ban Johnson
4. Jim Creighton
5. Al Spalding

[jalbright]

A few words about Louis Santop:

Louis Santop ELECTED BBF HOF SEPTEMBER 2005

He has plenty of support from observers:

1) Bill James names him the second best catcher in the Negro Leagues in his latest Historical Abstract;
2) Named as a third team catcher in the Pittsburgh Courier poll;
3) came in 22nd in the SABR poll attempting to rank Negro League luminaries;
4) selected to the Baseball Think Factory "Hall of Merit"; and
5) 76% of Negro League historians polled for Cool Papas and Double Duties named him as worthy of Cooperstown.
6) elected to Cooperstown in 2006.

The records we have for him against major leaguers in exhibitions indicate he went 18/56 (.310) with no homers.

The Baseball Think Factory guys went straight to win shares for him, so I will have to follow that lead. They tab him at 299 career WS, 133 best 5 consecutive, and a top 3 of 36, 27 and 25. Those win share numbers are comparable to Dickey (314; 132; 33, 27, 27) and Mickey Cochrane (275; 142; 31, 30, 28), but I'd place Santop a hair behind both.

Bill James said this about Santop on page 180 of his latest Historical Abstract:
A huge left-handed power hitter who was a superstar in the Walter Johnson era. A genial, easy-going man . . . immensely popular with the fans. Good defensive skills . . . a good arm and, at 240 pounds, a world beater at blocking the plate.

Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues, page 695, also describes him as the "biggest drawing card in black baseball" when he was in his prime.

[jjpm74]

Players:

1. Rogers Hornsby
2. Ezra Sutton
3. Ross Barnes
4. Joe Start
5. Jimmy Collins
6. Deacon White
7. Paul Hines
8. Bill Dahlen
9. Edd Roush
10. Charlie Bennett
11. George Wright
12. Mordecai Brown

Contributors:

1. Doc Adams
2. Jim Creighton
3. C. I. Taylor
4. Ban Johnson
5. Al Spalding

Not yet on my ballot, but high in my consideration set:

Roger Bresnahan
Fred Clarke
Pud Galvin
George Gore
Heinie Groh
Bid McPhee
Amos Rusie
Louis Santop
George Sisler
Zach Wheat

May eventually vote for:

Jake Beckley
Jesse Burkett
Max Carey
Bob Caruthers
Frank Chance
Cupid Childs
Wilbur Cooper
Stan Coveleski
Lave Cross
Bill Dinneen
Red Faber
Jack Glasscock
Frank Grant
Burleigh Grimes
Hughie Jennings
Home Run Johnson
Charley Jones
Tim Keefe
Willie Keeler
Joe Kelley
Tommy Leach
Herman Long
Sherry Magee
Rabbit Maranville
Carl Mays
Joe McGinnity
Cal McVey
Jose Mendez
Dobie Moore
Alejandro Oms
Dickey Pearce
Lip Pike
Spotswood Poles
Charlie Radbourn
Dick Redding
Sam Rice
Hardy Richardson
Eppa Rixey
Jimmy Ryan
Wally Schang
Jimmy Scheckard
Urban Shocker
Sam Thompson
Dazzy Vance
Bobby Wallace

[Brad Harris]

Players
1. Rogers Hornsby
2. Deacon White
3. Louis Santop
4. Paul Hines
5. Tim Keefe
6. George Wright
7. Jesse Burkett
8. Bill Dahlen
9. Mordecai Brown
10. Ross Barnes
11. Amos Rusie
12. Joe Start

Contributors
1. Doc Adams
2. William Hulbert
3. Ban Johnson
4. Al Spalding
5. Judge Landis

Too many remaining in my consideration set to list them all here.

[henrich]

Players:
01. Hornsby R.
02. Brown M.
03. Keefe T.
04. Galvin P.
05. Burkett J.
06. Thompson S.
07. Pennock H.
08. Barnes R.
09. Clarke F.
10. White D.
11. Dahlen B.
12. Santop L.

Contributors:
01. Cartwright
02. Landis
03. Spalding
04. Hulbert
05. Johnson

[Paul Wendt]

Contributors
1. Doc Adams
2. Ban Johnson
3. Al Spalding
4. William Hulbert
5. Francis Richter

I think Alfred Spink should be eligible.


Players
We have 10 pitchers, 10 outfielders, and 10 others.
(sigh)

Who are the leading eligible players with no votes in 1940?

Here they are according to Hall of Merit rankings by primary fielding positions. The rankings cover HOM members, who all retired before 2003, and they go at least 18 players deep at eight positions other than pitcher.

Top 10 by fielding position (Hall of Merit)
3b, Heinie Groh #10

By the way we have already elected all of their other top tens except shortstops Dahlen and Wright, leftfielders Burkett and Clarke.

Top 15 by fielding position (Hall of Merit)
2b, Bid McPhee #12, Hardy Richardson #15
ss, Grant Johnson #12
3b, Heinie Groh #10
lf, Jimmy Sheckard #13
cf, George Gore #14, Pete Hill #15

[Domenic]

Players
01. Rogers Hornsby
02. Deacon White
03. Louis Santop
04. Mordecai Brown
05. George Wright
06. Tim Keefe
07. Paul Hines
08. Amos Rusie
09. Bill Dahlen
10. Ross Barnes
11. Jesse Burkett
12. Joe Start

Contributors
1. Doc Adams
2. Ban Johnson
3. Al Spalding
4. William Hulbert
5. Judge Landis

[Paul Wendt]

Players

1 Rogers Hornsby
2 George Wright
3 Deacon White
4 Bill Dahlen
5 Paul Hines
6 Fred Clarke
7 Jesse Burkett
8 J.M. Ward
9 Ross Barnes
10 Louis Santop
11 Grant Johnson
12 George Gore (was 11)
Jack Glasscock (was 12)

For now I have slipped two new names into the two open slots on my ballot. That is something best done early in the fortnight.

Last hour I mentioned the Hall of Merit rankings by fielding position. For what it's worth I think that the all-time great LFs have been surpassed by their center- and right-field brethren (especially at the Hall of Merit where the ranking does not include Rickey Henderson or Barry Bonds). Jesse Burkett #6 and Fred Clarke #8 are in the middle of my ballot this year (again). Candidates Magee, Sheckard, and Wheat inhabit HOM ranks #12 to #14.

[jalbright]

I think Alfred Spink should be eligible.

I'd like to see a little more about him before making a final call. Care to make a brief case or at least direct me to some on-line resources about him (I need birth and death dates from somewhere)?

Edit
I found this by Bill Burgess (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=821993&postcount=3)

I'll have to consider it a little, but I'm leaning toward including him. Anyone else care to offer an opinion?

What about Charles Spink, who according to Bill, ran the magazine from 1895? Other than founding the magazine, what did Alfred do to make himself worthy?

Though I may well add him, he won't get my vote without some persuasive answer to the final question above.

[Sockeye]

1. Rogers Hornsby
2. Tim Keefe
3. Jesse Burkett
4. Joe Jackson
5. Fred Clarke
6. Zack Wheat
7. Sherry Magee
8. Willie Keeler
9. Sam Thompson
10. Elmer Flick
11. Harry Stovey
12. Pete Browning

1. Doc Adams
2. Al Cartwright
3. William Hulbert
4. Ban Johnson
5. Al Spalding

[bambambaseball]

Players:

1. Rogers Hornsby
2. Charlie Bennett
3. Jimmy Collins
4. Ezra Sutton
5. Ross Barnes
6. Deacon White
7. George Sisler
8. Mordecai Brown
9. Bob Caruthers
10. George Wright
11. Louis Santop
12. Jesse Burkett

Contributers:

1. Creighton, Jim
2. Adams, Doc
3. Bill Klem
4. Francis Richter
5. Al Spalding

[Paul Wendt]

11 George Gore
12 Jack Glasscock

For now I have slipped two new names into the two open slots on my ballot. That is something best done early in the fortnight.

After a bit of housekeeping I re-discovered, and added to table "Top 15 by fielding position (Hall of Merit)", two early blackball players Grant Johnson and Pete Hill. It is easy for me to overlook them at my digital desk because I do not have debut and finale dates for them. They don't show up as retired before 1937 or retired after 1936. They were in their primes about 15 and 10 years before black catcher Louis Santop; about 10 and 15 years after Frank Grant. Of course that means great overlap in their whole careers. Grant, Johnson, and Hill played before the Negro Leagues; Santop enjoyed his best seasons before the leagues.

There is a good chance I will revise my hasty ballot. Probably it matters more to get Johnson and Hill into that table and into bold print here.

[jalbright]

Here's a post I made about Pete Hill (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=361391&postcount=55), who was born in 1880 and died in 1951, playing from 1899 to 1926, all according to my edition of Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues

For Grant Johnson, here's a post I did for him. (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=361381&postcount=48). Again, from Riley's Encyclopedia, he was born in 1874 and died in 1964, and played from 1895 to 1916.

[jalbright]

I hate Wikipedia as a source because it can be so easily manipulated by anyone. That said, I do trust it for really basic info, like birth and death dates, which gives me 1854 as Alfred Spink's birth year and 1928 as his year of death. I suspect it would be best to hold off until 1942 for him as we've already started 1941, and it's highly doubtful he'd sweep to victory this year in any event. It would also give us a name to add to the Contributor list for 1942 when it would otherwise have none.

[Brad Harris]

I hate Wikipedia as a source because it can be so easily manipulated by anyone. That said, I do trust it for really basic info, like birth and death dates, which gives me 1854 as Alfred Spink's birth year and 1928 as his year of death. I suspect it would be best to hold off until 1942 for him as we've already started 1941, and it's highly doubtful he'd sweep to victory this year in any event. It would also give us a name to add to the Contributor list for 1942 when it would otherwise have none.
So let it be written. So let it be done.

[leecemark]

1. Roger Hornsby
2. George Wright
3. Ross Barnes
4. Luis Santop
5. Paul Hines
6. John Ward
7. Deacon White
8. Amos Rusie
9. Jimmy Collins
10. Fred Clarke
11. Jesse Burkett
12. Pete Hill



1. Ban Johnson
2. Alexander Cartwright
3. William Hulbert
4. Al Spaulding (like to see him as a player, but he is much closer this way
5. Francis Richter

[mwiggins]

1. Rogers Hornsby
2. George Sisler
3. Joe Jackson
4. Louis Santop
5. Mordecai Brown
6. Fred Clarke
7. George Wright
8. Jesse Burkett
9. Bill Dahlen
10. Sherry Magee
11. Max Carey
12. Deacon White


1. Alexander Cartwright
2. William Hulbert
3. Al Spalding
4. Ban Johnson
5. Doc Adams

[jalbright]

With the above ballot, we have reached a quorum, and thus the results from this election will be official. Parenthetically, I might note this happened within 5 hours of the thread being started.

[Paul Wendt]

1. Roger Hornsby
2. George Wright
3. Ross Barnes
4. Luis Santop
5. Paul Hines
6. John Ward
6. Deacon White
7. Amos Rusie
8. Jimmy Collins
9. Fred Clarke
10. Jesse Burkett
11. Mordeci Brown
12. Pete Hill
That is a vote for 13 and they are all eligible iicc.
It may not be a vote but Pete Hill gets his name out there again.

[dgarza]

Players

1. Rogers Hornsby
2. Tim Keefe
3. Sam Thompson
4. Jesse Burkett
5. Joe Jackson
6. Ross Barnes
7. George Sisler
8. Amos Rusie
9. Al Spalding
10. Harry Stovey
11. Mordecai Brown
12. Willie Keeler

Contributors
1. Al Spalding
2. Kenesaw Landis
3. Alexander Cartwright
4. Charles Conlon
5. Doc Adams

[Dogdaze]

Players:

1. Rogers Hornsby
2. Mordecai Brown
3. Tim Keefe
4. Louis Santop
5. George Wright
6. Deacon White
7. John M. Ward
8. Jimmy Collins
9. Jesse Burkett
10. Ross Barnes
11. Amos Rusie
12. George Sisler

Contributors:

1. Doc Adams
2. William Hulbert
3. Ban Johnson
4. Al Spalding
5. Francis Richter

[PVNICK]

1. Rogers Hornsby
2. Tim Keefe
3. George Sisler
4. Hoss Radbourne
5. Monte Ward
6. Mordecai Brown
7. Bill Dahlen
8. Amos Rusie
9. Bob Caruthers
10. George Wright
11. Jimmy Collins
12. Louis Santop

1. Jim Creghton
2. Al Spalding
3. AJ Reach
4. William Hulbert
5. Kenesaw Landis

[Captain Cold Nose]

1. Rogers Hornsby
2. Mordecai Brown
3. Tim Keefe
4. George Wright
5. John Montgomery Ward
6. Louis Santop
7. Deacon White
8. Bill Dahlen
9. George Sisler
10. Amos Rusie
11. Willie Keeler
12. Charles Radbourne

Contributors

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Al Spalding
3. Ban Johnson
4. William Hulbert
5. Doc Adams

[Freakshow]

1. Rogers Hornsby
2. George Wright
3. Louis Santop
4. Bill Dahlen
5. Deacon White
6. Paul Hines
7. Jesse Burkett
8. Amos Rusie
9. Tim Keefe
10. Ross Barnes
11. Fred Clarke
12. Joe Start

[AstrosFan]

1. Rogers Hornsby
2. Tim Keefe
3. Jimmy Collins
4. Bill Dahlen
5. John M. Ward
6. Max Carey
7. Louis Santop
8. Amos Rusie
9. Jesse Burkett
10. George Sisler
11. Deacon White
12. Three-Finger Brown

Contributors:

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Ban Johnson
3. William Hulbert
4. Francis Richter
5. Doc Adams

[J W]

Players' Ballot
1. Rogers Hornsby
2. Joe Jackson
3. Frank Grant
4. Mordecai Brown
5. Jesse Burkett
6. Louis Santop
7. Tim Keefe
8. George Sisler
9. Bill Dahlen
10. Rube Waddell
11. Amos Rusie
12. Sherry Magee

Contributors' Ballot
1. William Hulbert
2. Doc Adams
3. Alexander Cartwright
4. Fred Clarke
5. Bill Klem

[BlueBlood]

1. Rogers Hornsby
2. Tim Keefe
3. Mordecai Brown
4. Amos Rusie
5. Bill Dahlen
6. George Wright
7. Deacon White
8. Charlie Bennett
9. Paul Hines
10. Jesse Burkett
11. Zack Wheat
12. Pud Galvin

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Jim Creighton
3. William Hulbert
4. Doc Adams
5. Al Spalding

[jalbright]

In 1942, we will add Alfred Spink to the contributor list, per the discussion in this thread.

On the player side, we will add Larry Benton, Lu Blue, Joe Dugan, Freddy Leach and Earl Smith if anyone cares. Eddie Rommel might get some support, but I doubt he'll get elected. Lefty O'Doul may get some support as a player, but I think he's got a better chance as a contributor when he becomes eligible that way in 20 more years. The big addition is Oscar Charleston, who is one of those candidates who I think should breeze to induction. More about him later.

[jalbright]

John Montgomery Ward is climbing among the players, which I'm glad to see. Even so, I think he's underappreciated at this point. Let me repeat myself on his case:

His playing career divides into two parts, which makes it hard to get a handle on him. First he was a pitcher, and, according to baseball-reference.com, the most similar guy to him in that capacity is HOFer Addie Joss. He hurt his arm, so he moved to shortstop, and the most similar player to him there is a darned good, though not great, player in Bobby Lowe. Put the value of Bobby Lowe on top of Addie Joss, though, and that is definitely a HOF quality player.

In Black Ink, he has 8 as a hitter, 22 as a pitcher when 27 and 40 respectively are average for HOFers. In Gray Ink, he has 92 as a hitter and 142 as a pitcher when 144 and 185 respectively are average for HOFers. In HOF standards, he gets 28 as a hitter and 43 as a pitcher, when 50 is the mark for an average HOFer. He doesn't make the mark of an average HOFer in either capacity, but you combine those two unique pieces of his career, and it's hard to deny he was a great one. (Source for the above: baseball-reference.com). He has 409 win shares, good for 41st overall, ahead of the already elected Cap Anson, Frank Baker, Roger Connor, Buck Ewing, Jim O'Rourke, Eddie Plank, Ed Walsh, George Davis, Ed Delahanty, Harry Heilmann, King Kelly and Billy Hamilton and guys with post 1875 careers leading him in the voting like John Clarkson, Jesse Burkett, Mordecai Brown, Bill Dahlen, and Amos Rusie. He also had a far longer career than Ross Barnes, who also leads him in the voting. I preferred some of these guys to Ward, I admit, but by no means all of them.

[jalbright]

Oscar Charleston
Years played: 1915-1941 (includes 10 winters in Cuban Winter League)
Main position: Centerfield, though spent several years at the end of his career as a 1B
All Star selections: 12 Holway, first actual game
MVPs: 4 Holway, 4 James and 5 ESPN
League champions on: 5 American summer, 3 Cuban Winter, one California Winter
League leading performances: In American summer play he was in the top five in average nine times (led once), in the top five in homers 14 times (led five), in the top three in steals 7 times (led four). In Cuba led in average and steals twice each and once each in homers, runs and hits. All time career leader in average in Cuba.
Expert rankings: top vote getter as greatest Negro Leaguer and leading vote getter among OF in CPDD historian’s poll; 1st team in Courier poll; 4th in SABR poll (the 2nd OF); 3rd OF in Museum poll; top James Negro Leaguer and ranked 4th overall and also on all time Negro League gold glove team; Clark pick as one of the top three OF; and on Team #1 of the All World picks.

Clearly, Oscar had a long career and is one of the best ever in blackball. He certainly also played for winners. Shades of Glory has rather complete data from 1920 (when Oscar was 26) on, and has his average in that major slice of his career as .348 with an on base percentage of .426 and slugging of .576 with 23 homers along with 33 steals per 550 AB. The steals particularly impressive given that our source eliminates some of his early years but includes the years after he became a player manager and gained enough weight to change him from a fleet CF to a 1B.

I can’t quite put him on a par with Mays given the facts of his move to first give him less defensive value than Mays at least after Oscar moved to first and the fact it appears he had a tad less power than Willie. On the other hand, I think Mantle’s career is also rather similar but shorter, so I put Oscar ahead of him. In my opinion, Oscar fits rather neatly between these two superb players, especially since all the evidence I have points to the notion that Oscar had a similar skill set to these two greats.

[jalbright]

Ranking Oscar Charleston:

Bill James 4th overall
BBF Collaboration project, 14th overall
Dick Clark, 1st team all-time OF beside Ruth and T Williams
John Holway, 2d team all-time OF, behind Ruth, Cobb and T. Williams
Bill McNeil's top "All-World" team, but behind Ruth, DiMaggio, T Williams, Mays, Cobb and Joe Jackson
Pittsburgh Courier's all-time Negro League first team, with Torriente beside him in the OF
4th in 1999 SABR poll of Negro League greats, ahead of the already elected Lloyd, Rogan, Torriente and Joe Williams
Greatest Negro Leaguer in poll of experts in Cool Papas and Double Duties, with Josh Gibson the only serious competition for him
Another poll of Negro league experts in Cool Papas made him the top OF in the Negro League, ahead of Torriente.

I've already made some comparisons to the already elected Torriente, Rogan, Joe Williams and Lloyd. I'll give some more and can throw in Santop, who's nearing the election threshhold:

Dick Clark's teams didn't have any of the elected guys any higher than second team;
Holway would have put Rogan on the first team, but none of the others mentioned higher than third team;
McNeil would have put Williams and Lloyd on the first team and Torriente and Rogan on the second;
All four elected players were on the Courier first team.

The lowest I've seen anyone who is willing to make the attempt for Negro Leaguers is in the mid 40's. Seeing as we will have elected 33 by the start of the 1942 election and more modern candidates like Aaron, Barry Bonds, DiMaggio, Clemens, Foxx, Gehrig, Ott, F. Robinson, Mays, Mantle, Musial, Schmidt, Maddux, Grove and A. Rodriguez aren't eligible yet, plus the 12 names on the ballot, I can't fathom anyone excluding him from their ballot.

[jalbright]

Charleston will land in the number one spot in my next ballot, as Hornsby is cruising to induction (named #1 on all 18 ballots, and we only have one voter from last election yet to vote). Unless George Wright pulls a real surprise and vaults into induction, he'll be a new name on my ballot. The other guy who will join my ballot is Fred Clarke, who is well behind Wright, sixty-some points behind the third spot, which is the cutoff for inductions now. I'm quite confident he's not going to make it this election.

[jalbright]

On the contributor side, I'm likely to pick between Landis and Richter. I will entertain arguments on which to choose this time around. The only other guy I'm thinking about right now would be Barrow, and he's got no support yet.

On the contributor side, I pay a great deal of attention to who is drawing support. It's hard to define whether this apple (manager) is better than this orange (GM) and then whether the better of those two is better than this pineapple (executive) or this peach (umpire) or this banana (other contributor). I find it helps to look at how others view it, and, so long as I can support the well-supported candidates, I'll join them, hoping they move to election. If they stall, I won't carry a lot of dead weight simply because I voted for them in the past, though.

On the player side, I factor in the above thinking, but, because it's easier to rank players to each other, there's a lot more limits on how far I'll go. George Sisler right now would be a good example. Eventually, because of his peak, I'd vote for Sisler--but he's not close yet for me simply because he didn't have much of a career beyond that six or seven year peak. I have an awful lot of guys in front of him, and I'm not inclined to push him ahead of all of them. If he makes it before I think he's close enough to gain my support, I'm not going to be upset. If he has to wait for a while for my support, that's the nature of a ranking project. That said, if I'm reasonably close on a guy, I'll bend on my rankings and hope to push him over the top and clear the ballot.

[jalbright]

On another note, the thread on Bud Selig has persuaded me to add Buddy boy to the eligibility list, starting in 1999 when he's 65. He would have only been Commissioner a year by then, but he'll be eligible the first election 1999 or after.

[Brad Harris]

On another note, the thread on Bud Selig has persuaded me to add Buddy boy to the eligibility list, starting in 1999 when he's 65. He would have only been Commissioner a year by then, but he'll be eligible the first election 1999 or after.
*cough* Are we not counting the "Interim Commissioner" years then? *cough*

[jalbright]

Hey, I never said I'd vote for Bud, but I agree with the consensus in the other thread that he will be inducted. That being the case, he deserves to be listed. He'll only get 4 or 5 chances before we go annual, as we'll be down to 1 contributor every three years by then--and I don't think he'll be appearing on my ballot in any of those elections.

[jjpm74]

Wow, with Charleston eligible next election, it'll be the 3rd straight year a newbie jumps right to #1 on my ballot. 1943 will see Goose Goslin and 1944 will see Lou Gehrig so that trend will continue for at least 2 more elections.

[Brad Harris]

Wow, with Charleston eligible next election, it'll be the 3rd straight year a newbie jumps right to #1 on my ballot. 1943 will see Goose Goslin and 1944 will see Lou Gehrig so that trend will continue for at least 2 more elections.
Actually, I expect #1 going to a newcomer to be the rule, not the exception, in this project. Time will tell.

[jalbright]

jjpm, I don't know where you're coming up with who's available when. I hope it isn't something I posted, because if it is, I've got to correct it. Remember, we're not using Cooperstown's standards, but eligibility at age 45 if he didn't play that season or the first missed season thereafter (or year of death plus two, if that moves the date up). I did that just to scramble the list a little from other projects, and to have a uniform rule with Negro Leaguers and Japanese players in the mix.

Actually, Gehrig is up in 1943 (with Frankie Frisch as well), but 1944 isn't overwhelming (Hoyt, Combs and Arlett are the best choices that year). 1945 has Lefty Grove and 1946 Turkey Stearns. Al Simmons in 1947 belongs, but I doubt he'll run away with the #1 spot. 1948 is loaded, with Cool Papa Bell, Mickey Cochrane, Charlie Gehringer, Carl Hubbell and Paul Waner. That flood of talent will probably keep anyone from running away with it. The leftovers from 1948 will have to contend with Josh Gibson in 1949. I haven't looked through the fifties yet, and it seems they'll slow down a bit in terms of overwhelming #1 picks, but by then the level will have dropped just a bit.

I would say it shouldn't be unusual for us to have newcomers in the top spot. The years loaded with talent may keep any one of the newcomers from running away from the field, but the year may be swept by newcomers in that scenario. 1954 will be a loaded year, with Paige, Ott and Arky Vaughan at the top of the list, 1976 will have Mays, Mantle, Mathews and Banks.

[jalbright]

If you want the list of eligibles, the "new project" thread in the subforum archive, posts 3 through 6 give them alphabetically and chronologically. The thread is available through this link (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84596).

[jalbright]

Some other years up to about 1987 where I think the top candidates would do better with our voters than the guys currently at the top of our ballot (other than Hornsby):
1952--Jimmie Foxx
1958--Johnny Mize
1959--Joe DiMaggio
1963--Ted Williams
1964--Jackie Robinson
1965--Stan Musial
1966--Warren Spahn
1970--Yogi Berra
1971--Robin Roberts
1979--Hank Aaron
1980--Frank Robinson
1984--Carl Yastrzemski

There may be others, as it's hard to see how Oh or Pete Rose will be received, and some others who will look stronger against the competition facing them then rather than what they'd face now. Even so, in the next 45 years, at least about 19 of them will have folks putting new candidates in the #1 spot. I'd guess the final total will be over half, quite possibly close to 2/3. Some years, like 1948, 1954, or 1976, we may not all agree on which new guy is #1, but we are likely to all have a new candidate as our #1.

[jalbright]

Bump. A little over 2 1/2 days to go.

[jalbright]

Assuming we elect Three Finger Brown to join the runaway candidate of 1941, Rogers Hornsby, the next nine holdovers are either Negro Leaguers (Santop) or started their careers before the change of the pitching distance to 60' 6". Of course, they'll be joined by Oscar Charleston, so it's quite possible all the top ten next time will be either 19th century guys or Negro Leaguers. The eight to join Santop come from Tim Keefe (probably going to be elected), Ross Barnes, Jesse Burkett, Bill Dahlen, Paul Hines, Amos Rusie, John M. Ward, Deacon White and George Wright.

[AG2004]

My ballot

Players:
1. Rogers Hornsby
2. Jesse Burkett
3. Paul Hines
4. Joe Start
5. Home Run Johnson
6. Hoss Radbourn
7. Bill Dahlen
8. George Wright
9. Three Finger Brown
10. Louis Santop
11. Fred Clarke
12. John M. Ward

Non-Players:
1. Doc Adams
2. Al Splading
3. Ban Johnson
4. Dickey Pearce
5. Jim Creighton

[Paul Wendt]

Players
We have 10 pitchers, 10 outfielders, and 10 others.
(sigh)
. . . and it appears that we will now have
12 pitchers
10 outfielders
11 others
(sigh)

Deacon White made a good start and several early voters left Tim Keefe off the ballot several later voters made Keefe number two. Morde Brown also rallied although not in the landslide fashion.

Players
. . .
11 George Gore
12 Jack Glasscock

For now I have slipped two new names into the two open slots on my ballot. That is something best done early in the fortnight.
Maybe so but it didn't garner another peep for Gore or Glasscock this time.

After a bit of housekeeping I re-discovered, and added to table "Top 15 by fielding position (Hall of Merit)", two early blackball players Grant Johnson and Pete Hill. ...
There is a good chance I will revise my hasty ballot. Probably it matters more to get Johnson and Hill into that table and into bold print here.
leecemark has peeped for Hill and AG has shouted for Johnson.

[Paul Wendt]

I have revised my ballot by sliding Grant Johnson into #11.

11 Grant Johnson
12 George Gore (was 11)
Jack Glasscock (was 12)

[jalbright]

Paul,

1) your ballot change has been noted.

2) what's the problem with a distribution of inductees about 1/3 pitchers, 1/3 OF. and 1/3 the rest? It would be better if we had 1/3 OF and 1B and 1/3 the rest, but it's reasonable. Certainly, 1/3 pitchers isn't out of line. We're still in the upper levels of talent, not near the borderline, and I think we're above the level achieved by many of the middle infield and catcher types available.

[jalbright]

We elected Rogers Hornsby, Tim Keefe, and Mordecai Brown among the players, and Doc Adams as a contributor. More to follow.

[jalbright]

Maybe so but it didn't garner another peep for Gore or Glasscock this time.


leecemark has peeped for Hill and AG has shouted for Johnson.

In my time at the site, a mere mention of someone in a ballot, unless it strikes someone as outrageous, rarely spurs discussion. Even attempts to start discussion (see my post on John Ward, for example) don't necessarily spur discussion, and maybe not even much in terms of persuasion. I will eventually support Frank Grant, Pete Hill and Grant Johnson, but I'm not convinced they're up at the level of the candidates who are doing well right now. When I feel it's reasonable to include them in that mix, I'll happily add them.

[Paul Wendt]

Paul,

1) your ballot change has been noted.

2) what's the problem with a distribution of inductees about 1/3 pitchers, 1/3 OF. and 1/3 the rest? It would be better if we had 1/3 OF and 1B and 1/3 the rest, but it's reasonable. Certainly, 1/3 pitchers isn't out of line.
There's nothing certain about it.

First, it's 36% pitchers
Second, many of these pitchers played for teams where they carried 25% to 50% of the workload (some of them higher in some seasons), in sharp contrast to the 10% to 20% that we see today.

We haven't elected the pitchers who played with Heilman, Ruth, and Hornsby. It's the same old crowd that played with Deacon White and Bill Dahlen.

We're still in the upper levels of talent, not near the borderline, and I think we're above the level achieved by many of the middle infield and catcher types available.
I think we're above the level achieved by Morde Brown.

[jalbright]

The official results:

We had 19 ballots in the player election, and, as mentioned earlier, elected Hornsby, Keefe and Brown:


Player……………. votes pts
Hornsby, Rogers 19 228
Keefe , Tim 13 117
Brown , M 15 102
Santop , Louis 15 91
Wright , George 13 91
Burkett , Jesse 16 90
White , Deacon 13 86
Dahlen , Bill 14 82
Hines , Paul 9 59
Rusie , Amos 12 58
Barnes , Ross 10 56
Ward , John M. 8 54
Sisler , George 8 46
Collins , Jimmy 6 39
Jackson , Joe 4 38
Clarke , Fred 7 33
Start , Joe 5 21
Thompson , S 3 21
Sutton , Ezra 2 20
Bennett , C 3 19
Wheat , Zack 4 18
Radbourn , C 3 17
Magee , Sherry 4 13
Galvin , Pud 2 10
Grant , Frank 1 10
Johnson , G 2 10
Carey , Max 2 9
Caruthers , B 2 8
Keeler , Willie 3 8
Pennock, Herb 1 6
Stovey , Harry 2 5
Roush , Edd 1 4
Spalding , Al 1 4
Flick , Elmer 1 3
Waddell , Rube 1 3
Browning , Pete 1 1
Gore , George 1 1
Hill , Pete... 1 1



We had 18 contributor ballots, and elected someone that Cooperstown hasn't honored to date, Doc Adams:


Contributor……. votes pts
Adams , Doc 15 53
Hulbert , W 14 44
Spalding , Al 16 40
Cartwright , A 9 39
Johnson , Ban 13 39
Creighton , Jim 6 21
Landis , K 5 11
Richter , F 5 7
Klem, Bill.... 2 4
Reach , A. J. 1 3
Taylor , C. I. 1 3
Clarke , Fred 1 2
Conlan , C 1 2
Pearce, Dickey 1 2

[jalbright]

I'll leave this here until Sunday night (unless serious discussion erupts, in which case I'd reconsider), at which point it will be moved to the archive.

[jalbright]

There's only one and a half pitchers (counting Ward as a SS/P) all the way down to Charlie Radbourn, or the first 18 places among the holdovers. Charleston will make it 19. Also, over half of them, again counting Ward as a SS/P) are not OF or P. It will even out over time, I believe.