Aaron could be reinstated as US homer king: report

[bluejaysfan]

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/Aaron+could+reinstated+home+king+report/1282511/story.html

I really do not know how I feel about this. Selig should wait until after the trial before taking any action.

[philkid3]

Awful. Awful, awful, awful. Leave the stats alone and allow people to be smart enough to realize what may or may not have gone in to some of them.

[Paulypal]

Absolutely disgusting. Selig who was in the middle of the roid boom and did nothing should never should be involved in any decisions at this point. He is the bigges phony of the whole damn bunch.

So we take Bonds down who "cheated", and put Aaron back in who cheated in another way.....apparently just more acceptable cheating.

Just disgusting.

[SupCompleteNerds]

How did Aaron ever cheat?

[SamtheBravesFan]

How did Aaron ever cheat?

He admitted to taking an amphetimine pill in his 1991 autobiography I Had A Hammer. Taking greenies is cheating.

Aaron also said in the book that he never did it again, but of course, some people don't believe that.

And count me in as another "Leave the record books alone" person.

[west coast orange and black]

^
players since day one have looked to gain an edge, an advantage.

during aaron's days, players used what substances were available to them - of this i have no doubt.
speaking on that exact subject with players, including 5 hall of famers and one who will be one, each stated that he would have used substances not included in drug testing, and undectable substances as well, had they been available.

[KCGHOST]

Only the steroids apologists accuse prior generations of cheating with the idea that if they did anything then that excuses their conduct.

The idea of dropping Bonds as the HR king is not well thought out. This will just lead to a firestorm of negative publicity. Let's just play baseball.

As for blaming Ol' Bud for the steroids era you are blaming the wrong guy. He may have been the commissioner during that period, but he held no power over the players other than what was in the CBA. The Union leadership was unalterably opposed to any form of meaningful testing of the players. And they were even more opposed to any kind of penalties against the players. To Fehr and Orza this was a position over which they would go on strike.

Now tell me how Selig was supposed to overcome that?? Not a chance. It wasn't until Congress stuck its nose in the deal did F&O get the message.

[west coast orange and black]

the story could be read as:

"Selig, a friend of Aaron, is considering returning Aaron to the top of the homerun list."

who's down with that?

[west coast orange and black]

without accusation or excusing:
players have used whatever substances were available to them that they thought would give 'em an edge.

[Ubiquitous]

Apparently Frank Robinson is the home run king since he is the first name on the list not linked to PEDS.

Your new home run leader list:
Frank Robinson
Harmon Killebrew
Jimmie Foxx
Manny Ramirez
Willie McCovey
Frank Thomas
Ted Williams
Ernie Banks
Eddie Mathews
Mel Ott

[Honus Wagner Rules]

the story could be read as:

"Selig, a friend of Aaron, is considering returning Aaron to the top of the homerun list."

who's down with that?

Bingo! Selig was part owner of the Milwaukee Braves when Aaron was in his prime.

[Ubiquitous]

From Harmon Killebrew:

We look at players today with condemnation and forget about the things we did. So if you put an asterisk by a player's name now, how far are you going to go back? What about the generation two times before? Are you going to look into that, too?

[sturg1dj]

Only the steroids apologists accuse prior generations of cheating with the idea that if they did anything then that excuses their conduct.




not an excuse for their conduct, a reason why removing one maybe two people ahead of Aaron because of one reason and ignoring another reason is wrong.

Bonds used an illegal substance to gain an edge and so did Aaron.



seriously though all of this negative talk is wearing me out, and the obscene coverage (and not the acts themselves) are really destroying my love for any sports. I don't care what Michael Phelps does on his time, I don't care what A-Rod or Bonds took, and I don't care who Tony Romo dates. It frustrates me and I am getting really tired of it...but I am still a fan. If the records are changed, however, I think that will be the last straw since that is a way of telling me that there are a bunch of games that really did not count and a bunch of things that I saw that did not count. What about the people that shelled out the money to see history? This would mean they simply wasted their money and saw nothing.

I am already contemplating ending my subscription to SI and locking my ESPN channels.

[west coast orange and black]

ubiquitous: Apparently Frank Robinson is the home run king since he is the first name on the list not linked to PEDS.

Your new home run leader list... needs some editing, everywhereman.

[Ubiquitous]

I'm sure it does but I can't find information on drug use for these players.

[philkid3]

He admitted to taking an amphetimine pill in his 1991 autobiography I Had A Hammer. Taking greenies is cheating.

Aaron also said in the book that he never did it again, but of course, some people don't believe that.

And count me in as another "Leave the record books alone" person.

Even if he did never do it again, once is cheating. A cheater is a cheater.

I certainly respect Aaron more than Bonds, but when it comes to the objective definition of who should have their records penalized I think Aaron is at least as deserving as Bonds.

A wise man put it perfectly when he said:
not an excuse for their conduct, a reason why removing one maybe two people ahead of Aaron because of one reason and ignoring another reason is wrong.

[west coast orange and black]

samthebravesfan: [Aaron] admitted to taking an amphetimine pill in his 1991 autobiography I Had A Hammer . Taking greenies is cheating.

because aaron admitted to using, selig would have no choice but to skip over aaron in a feeble and wayward attempt of "clean records"... unless his stance is:
"i am not as interested in eradicating substance abuse as i am in baseball's numbers, and i believe that what aaron took affected his numbers."

[boisemarinersfan]

Apparently Frank Robinson is the home run king since he is the first name on the list not linked to PEDS.

Your new home run leader list:
Frank Robinson
Harmon Killebrew
Jimmie Foxx
Manny Ramirez
Willie McCovey
Frank Thomas
Ted Williams
Ernie Banks
Eddie Mathews
Mel Ott

Griffey Jr? I have never heard his name and PEDS?

[NYMets523]

Awful. Awful, awful, awful. Leave the stats alone and allow people to be smart enough to realize what may or may not have gone in to some of them.

Agree 100%.

And if they do this for HR leader, then they should do it for other records broken by a known juicer. I'm willing to bet Selig wouldn't even be considering this if he wasn't such good friends with Aaron.

[Seattle1]

Aaron could be reinstated as US homer king: report

That seems like a pretty good idea to me since Bonds was on drugs the whole time.

:twocents:

[sturg1dj]

That seems like a pretty good idea to me since Bonds was on drugs the whole time.

:twocents:

which apparently means you read none of the responses and gained no perspective over the last week or so.


fair enough

[spark240]

Taking greenies is cheating.

Is it, really? Even when there is no league rule against it?

Is drinking coffee cheating?

[sturg1dj]

Is it, really? Even when there is no league rule against it?

Is drinking coffee cheating?

there is a league rule. Its the same as steroids. They are on the same banned substance list. They are also illegal, and have been that way longer than steroids. BTW, just so you know...greenies are amphetamines.

[THE OX]

Bingo! Selig was part owner of the Milwaukee Braves when Aaron was in his prime.

Brewers, not Braves, Honus! And Bud didn't get to be Aaron's franchise owner until 1975, when Hank was well past his prime! Selig was just another Milwaukee automobile dealer in 1966, when Hank and the Braves left for Atlanta.

I'd like to see an asterisk next to Bonds' name, too.

[Seattle1]

ESPN.com currently has a poll up that asks, "whom do you consider the home-run king?" At this writing the results are as follows:

8,127 ballots cast

77% in favor of Hank Aaron

23% in favor of Barry Bonds

All 50 states, and the world at large, are currently favoring Aaron in the voting.

[Seattle1]

which apparently means you read none of the responses and gained no perspective over the last week or so.


fair enough

You must be putting words in my mouth!

:faint:

[redlegsfan21]

There has been cheating in baseball almost forever (there was probably no cheating in the first ever game). From spitballs to steroids, every record would definitely be different if no one cheated. If you take Bonds' name off the list or place a nice lovely * next to his name, you might as well put one next to the majority of players in this game.

[OleMissCub]

So Aaron took an adderall basically?

Big deal.

[redlegsfan21]

So Aaron took an adderall basically?

Big deal.

Exactly how I feel about this whole steroid issue.

[spark240]

there is a league rule.

Now there is, yes. Not when Hank Aaron was playing.

Its the same as steroids. They are on the same banned substance list.

Even now, the MLB policy on amphetamines does not treat them as harshly as steroids.

The new agreement calls for first-time [steroid] offenders to be suspended for 50 games, second-time offenders to be suspended for 100 games and third-time offenders to be banished from baseball for life.
...
Players who test positive for amphetamines for the first time will be subject to mandatory evaluation and follow-up testing. Subsequent positive tests for amphetamines will carry suspensions of 25 games, 80 games and up to a lifetime ban.

I think our agreement reflects the fact that amphetamines are sort of a hybrid between drugs of abuse, like cocaine, and performance-enhancing drugs, like steroids.

Well... not exactly, but whatever.

BTW, just so you know...greenies are amphetamines.

No kidding.

[highpockets]

Is Rickey Henderson now the new base-on-balls record holder? Are we going to have new MVP's for '90, '92, '93 and '01-'04?

Do the Giants have to give up the runs scored on those home runs and the games they won because of them? Are the standings from the steroid era all going to be asterisked?

The MLB world dealt with the steroid issue first through denial and then denial and scapegoating, so I guess this is the logical conclusion. Blame it on Bonds, then pretend he never existed. End of problem.

[cardsfanatic]

Only the steroids apologists accuse prior generations of cheating with the idea that if they did anything then that excuses their conduct.


Nice try... but no. It's not that at all. It's the fact that every generation has cheated that leaves us wondering why we need to treat the steroid generation any differently. I understand people love to fawn over the "good ol' days" but seriously. Every generation of baseball players have looked for that edge. I don't see how steroid users are "unique" in the least.

[cardsfanatic]

Is it, really? Even when there is no league rule against it?

Is drinking coffee cheating?

Ah, so we have yet _another_ double standard in the steroid debate. Boy, and I thought the first million were enough!

So, let me get this straight... when people bring up the fact that steroids weren't banned from baseball when these HR records were set. Or while Big Mac was playing. Or while Bonds tested postive, that we know or. Or A-Rod for that matter. It's bound to happen, 10000000% of the time -- someone will say, "but they were against the law of the United States, therefore, that supercedes baseball rules!"

Ok... so, Speed isn't illegal in the United States? I'm just checking here.

[cardsfanatic]

As for the topic... I'm not going to overreact just yet. But, if this comes to pass and they begin wiping out records and such, I'll just let Baseball live on in my memories and begin watching the NBA or something. Let the cry babies have their baseball.

To me, taking an eraser to a record book make a bigger mockery of the sport than if the entire league was on the juice.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Earlier, I said "Taking greenies is cheating". I need to expand a little more: While Hank Aaron did say he took a greenie once, that does not make him enough of a "cheater" to discount his home run total. We do have to take him at his word. That's all we have. It's not fair to him to assume that he's lying, especially when we have little reason to suspect that he isn't being truthful.

[highpockets]

As for the topic... I'm not going to overreact just yet. But, if this comes to pass and they begin wiping out records and such, I'll just let Baseball live on in my memories and begin watching the NBA or something. Let the cry babies have their baseball.

To me, taking an eraser to a record book make a bigger mockery of the sport than if the entire league was on the juice.
Geeze, cardsfan, why even overreact later on? It's not as if Selig is going to break into Baseball Reference and scrub their server. You see the mentality you're dealing with. Why give its fantasies a second thought, even if they are wrapped in the cloak of self-constituted authority?

[FrenchyLefebvre]

Selig is so beyond pathetic backed into the corner it's not even funny.

Hey Bud the Slug:

1998 called.
It wants this statement back:

"I think what Mark McGwire has accomplished is so remarkable, and he has handled it all so beautifully, we want to do everything we can to enjoy a great moment in baseball history."

Yeah, "do everything we can" and then some.

This guy's obviously scared chitless now, and has lost what was left of any mind he may have ever had.

[slugger33]

Hank Aaron the "speed" demon about to take back the throne?

[Paulypal]

He admitted to taking an amphetimine pill in his 1991 autobiography I Had A Hammer. Taking greenies is cheating.

Aaron also said in the book that he never did it again, but of course, some people don't believe that.

And count me in as another "Leave the record books alone" person.

Of course he took it once, and Pettite took HGH twice. :crazy
Its just beyond ridiculous.

I am with you ....Leave the records alone. Bonds having the HR will not stop the earth from spinning on its axis. We need for MLB, Congress, ESPN to let it go. Who am I kidding.

[sturg1dj]

Now there is, yes. Not when Hank Aaron was playing.



Even now, the MLB policy on amphetamines does not treat them as harshly as steroids.





Well... not exactly, but whatever.



No kidding.






well let me give the response that I always give when I say that steroids were under an unenforceable fake rule done without the union ratifying it....it was still illegal. Amphetamines were part of the 1970 drug act. Aaron played 6 seasons after this so we would have to at least remove the home runs he hit during those times. the same for willie mays. This leaves Aaron with 592 home runes (unless my math is off, which it may just be) and Mays with 628.

So the new top 3 is
Ruth 714
Mays 628
Aaron 592

and at the bottom
Reggie Jackson (if amphetamine use was as widespread as we believe) - 77
Sosa 0
Bonds 0
McGwire 0
A-Rod 0

[Paulypal]

Selig is so beyond pathetic backed into the corner it's not even funny.

Hey Bud the Slug:

1998 called.
It wants this statement back:

"I think what Mark McGwire has accomplished is so remarkable, and he has handled it all so beautifully, we want to do everything we can to enjoy a great moment in baseball history."

Yeah, "do everything we can" and then some.

This guy's obviously scared chitless now, and has lost what was left of any mind he may have ever had.

If this was the Godfather Selig would be sleeping with the fishes. He always seems like its the first time he has heard of steroids. Unless your blind or just really really ignorant it was quite obvious what was happening by the time Sosa/Mac were making baseballs look like golf balls.

[Seattle1]

ESPN.com currently has a poll up that asks, "whom do you consider the home-run king?" At this writing the results are as follows:

8,127 ballots cast

77% in favor of Hank Aaron

23% in favor of Barry Bonds

All 50 states, and the world at large, are currently favoring Aaron in the voting.

UPDATE

At this writing, there are:

11,411 ballots cast

78% in favor of Hank Aaron

22% in favor of Barry Bonds

All 50 states, and the world at large, are still favoring Aaron over Bonds.

[sturg1dj]

UPDATE

At this writing, there are:

11,411 ballots cast

78% in favor of Hank Aaron

22% in favor of Barry Bonds

All 50 states, and the world at large, are still favoring Aaron over Bonds.


and thats how it should remain. People should be able to make up their own minds and not have history altered or erased. Bonds name is in the books, yet 78% of people who voted don't consider him the leader. Fine, good for them.

this isn't post-Stalin Russia. This is America. We do not try to erase our mistakes and rewrite history, we use out mistakes to learn (at least that is what I with we did).

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Without getting into what Aaron did, Bonds did. I can't see Bud proclaiming Hank the home run king.
I'm not a Bonds fan and no way to know how much steroids played into his total.
Bud should drop this one, how does he just say Hank is the home run king.
It's Barry unless, until some one passes him.

While he's at it, forget about suspending AROD. What about the others on that list.
Buds already on the hot seat and in a short span of times he comes up with two more winners, thinking about proclaiming a new home run king and is thinking of suspending AROD. Good way to make AROD the sympathetic figure.

What I think, his motive to appear he is finally taking some action, leave it alone Bud.

[FrenchyLefebvre]

What I think, his motive to appear he is finally taking some action, leave it alone Bud.

IMO, his only motive is to draw as much attention as he can away from the web "his" sport is tangled in: That little legal issue with Gov't evidence being leaked -- and moreso, just what allowed that to happen in the first place.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

IMO, his only motive is to draw as much attention as he can away from the web "his" sport is tangled in: That little legal issue with Gov't evidence being leaked -- and moreso, just what allowed that to happen in the first place.

I don't know if thats his only motive and I'm not saying it's not a part of his motive, what you say sounds reasonable.
It could be that and also in part what I believe, appear to the public, now I am doing something.

What ever the reason, bad moves should he follow through.......new home run king and suspend AROD.

[gojays]

This sounds oddly familiar...

*cough*http://www.baseball-fever.com/member.php?u=24739*cough*

[Pete Rose Rounding Third]

Bill Simmons argued for inducting "clouded" HOFers with busts that reflected their warts and shortcomings. I'm starting to warm to that idea.

[Ubiquitous]

Is it, really? Even when there is no league rule against it?

Is drinking coffee cheating?

Then Bonds never broke the rules either nor Clemens nor Sosa nor McGwire.


And amphetamines were illegal in 1965.

[Solair Wright]

This controversy surrounding the Home Run King title is not turning out nicely. Even if Bonds has indeed cheated, what would they do? Jumping to conclusions that Bonds took steroids is not helping things either.

Just sayin'. I'm not defending Bonds in any way, but how it's being handled by Selig is not turning out to be an appropriate solution.

[Big_Mac]

look, i love baseball's record as much as anyone but lets leave them alone.

if someone wants to consider aaron the home run king, let them do it. if someone wants to consider maris the all-time single-season home run king, great. however, lets don't whip bonds record out. people know the allegations against these steriod users so let them jump to there own conclusions, not make them up for them.

[spark240]

So, let me get this straight... when people bring up the fact that steroids weren't banned from baseball when these HR records were set.

My understanding is that steroids have been against league policy since 1991, though enforcement only began in 2004. (Some people believe that a written policy issued by the Commissioner of Baseball does not equal league policy.)

Ok... so, Speed isn't illegal in the United States? I'm just checking here.

It is.

The matter I was addressing was whether taking greenies (in the absence of a pertinent league rule) was cheating. There has been an effort by steroid apologists to give the impression that amphetamine use is the same as steroid use, and I am questioning that. Greenies are stimulants--strong, fairly dangerous, and rather addictive stimulants (less so than cigarettes); but, simply stimulants.

To be clear, I am not defending amphetamine use. I am just saying that we have seen a curious logic recently around the notion of cheating, with some people drawing parallels not only between steroids and amphetamines, but between steroids and spitballs, and any number of other things. Has anyone yet mentioned the unnatural focus of Dock Ellis, pitching his acidic no-hitter? :D

For example, on Aaron's taking a pill in 1968,

Even if he did never do it again, once is cheating. A cheater is a cheater.

Let's get a grip here.

[Ubiquitous]

(Some people believe that a written policy issued by the Commissioner of Baseball does not equal league policy.)


Some people like to ignore what the Commissioner said about this very topic.

[Imgran]

I don't think there even is an appropriate solution. Like it or not the number is there. Like it or not, Bonds cheated to put it there. We're all a lot unhappier as a result.

I think the correct answer is that when you bring up the HR record, you just expect fans to remember (and baseball fans are VERY good at remembering) how Bonds got where he is. And afford him exactly the respect he reserves.

Also remember how Aaron got where he is. And afford HIM the much GREATER respect that HE deserves, not just as a great hitter but as a pioneer of the sport who put up with a whole heck of a lot of crap Bonds never had to deal with in order to be what he was.

[spark240]

Some people like to ignore what the Commissioner said about this very topic.

Do you have a link to the quote you're talking about?

Look, I know the rule was unenforced, and indeed unenforceable, because the office of the commish did not have the power to unilaterally impose meaningful penalties (suspensions, loss of pay, etc.) on employees in a collective bargaining relationship.

That's a matter of employment and law, which is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the rules of the game, strictly on the field.

[tinseltown]

Do you have a link to the quote you're talking about? From http://www.bizofbaseball.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1173&Itemid=81: I don’t remember much about the circumstances and I don’t remember who really pushed for it. But, I can speculate that it came out of an awareness that for people who were not in the union – not protected by the Union agreement – that steroids might be a problem. ... And so for at least coaches and managers and everybody else in baseball we thought we ought to go on record and say that this is bad stuff and we don’t want it getting a toe-hold in baseball.

I wish I remembered more. Obviously, it wasn’t a major thing because I don’t think any of us thought steroids was really a major issue at the time. We were so wrapped up in cocaine problems, so I just don’t remember that much about it.

... nobody paid too much attention to it because it was aimed at people who probably weren’t big steroid users anyway. I mean the clubhouse man, and the coaches would hardly be taking steroids.

... I think it was really our attempt to be on record, if this was our universe, if we controlled the whole thing, this is what we would do. And we did it, but we did it only for the people that were not covered by the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

[Los Bravos]

Is there no end to this oaf and his ludicrous grandstanding? I can't imagine Hank would be comfortable having his record handed back to him by fiat, by a personal friend.People should be able to make up their own minds and not have history altered or erased. Bonds name is in the books, yet 78% of people who voted don't consider him the leader.Which is the perfect and fitting punishment for him.The matter I was addressing was whether taking greenies (in the absence of a pertinent league rule) was cheating. There has been an effort by steroid apologists to give the impression that amphetamine use is the same as steroid use, and I am questioning that.
I'll take it a step further: it's completely absurd.

[STLCards2]

If one record is going to be made illegit, good luck clensing the record books of every steroid influenced single season and lifetime record!:laugh It would be unfair and inconsistent to remove Bond's HR record, and not the rcords set by who-knows-how-many steroid users over the past 20 years. The official MLB record keepers are about to be working overtime.

And since it will be of historical record-keeping importance, it will be more important to know exactly who is and is not on streroids. So, let the witch hunts begin in full force again and lets please illegaly leak more names!

I am not thrilled with performance enhancement either, but their is no way to make this fair or consistant. At some point, we have to just move on and do what we can to keep the game clean from here on out.

[timmyj51]

If Buddy Boy throws out King 'Roids records, will he give the fans
back their money? Fan forked over his hard earned money thinking
he was seeing a real, honest-to-goodness, ballplayer who was hitting the
ball farther because of talent, training, dedication, etc. Now he might be
told he was really paying for a chemistry set in cleats hitting balls
that DIDN'T COUNT! Where I come from we have a word for that: FRAUD!

[Iron Peach]

This is just as stupid an idea as trying to seperate Maris's HR record from Ruths.

[Imgran]

Submitted for your consideration:

The fact that other players cheated has limited bearing on the fact that Bonds cheated. The fact that some cheaters have not been punished has similarly limited bearing on the prospect of Bonds being punished. Introducing instances of known or suspected cheaters who have not faced significant sanction, therefore, has limited bearing, if any at all, on the concept of whether Bonds should be recognized as the Home Run king or not.

(incidentally, the fact that Bonds has hit the most HR's in history is also not as germaine as it would first appear, if that number was inflated illegally).

[CandlestickBum]

Only the steroids apologists accuse prior generations of cheating with the idea that if they did anything then that excuses their conduct.


I too dislike any argument that smacks of two wrongs make a right, or this mistake on "your" side cancels out a mistake by "my" side. But I disagree with you that that automatically makes someone a steroid apologist. Many are just pointing out that cheating of one kind or another has been around forever. Spitballs, messing with the bats. amphetamines, what have you.

And by the way, has anyone ever noticed that uppers never went away? So the roiders were probably juicing AND on uppers. That some of the modern uppers are legal is kind of moot in my mind.



As for blaming Ol' Bud for the steroids era you are blaming the wrong guy.


Where do you see anyone blaming Selig? You do see people say he was PART of the problem and colluded with everyone else in pretending nothing was going on. And therefore is acting in a hypocritical fashion which deserves our collective scorn.

A Pox on Selig.

[sturg1dj]

I too dislike any argument that smacks of two wrongs make a right, or this mistake on "your" side cancels out a mistake by "my" side. But I disagree with you that that automatically makes someone a steroid apologist. Many are just pointing out that cheating of one kind or another has been around forever. Spitballs, messing with the bats. amphetamines, what have you.

And by the way, has anyone ever noticed that uppers never went away? So the roiders were probably juicing AND on uppers. That some of the modern uppers are legal is kind of moot in my mind.




Where do you see anyone blaming Selig? You do see people say he was PART of the problem and colluded with everyone else in pretending nothing was going on. And therefore is acting in a hypocritical fashion which deserves our collective scorn.

A Pox on Selig.

does anyone remember when amphetamines were finally added to the testing and there were a bunch of stories pointing out how away teams were playing much worse after they were banned?

also how many hangover home runs do you think were hit because of amphetamines?

its a long season, and you get tired. To say amphetamines didn't play a major role in stats is absurd.

[Imgran]

The real issue is the whole good ol' boy network in baseball.

[Seattle1]

UPDATE

At this writing, there are:

11,411 ballots cast

78% in favor of Hank Aaron

22% in favor of Barry Bonds

All 50 states, and the world at large, are still favoring Aaron over Bonds.

UPDATE

ESPN appears to have removed the poll from their website, perhaps because the overwhelming poll numbers were way to damaging.

[sturg1dj]

UPDATE

ESPN appears to have removed the poll from their website, perhaps because the overwhelming poll numbers were way to damaging.

that must be the reason, because its not like the ESPN party line is that steroid users are cheaters and need to be dealt with. Oh wait, thats exactly what it is.

[CandlestickBum]

that must be the reason, because its not like the ESPN party line is that steroid users are cheaters and need to be dealt with. Oh wait, thats exactly what it is.


Heh, good article (IMNSHO) on steroids, Selig, ESPN and sports in general:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9215280/Go-straight-to-the-top-with-steroid-outrage

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Too many Barry is not mr. nice guy, disliked by many.
Put personal feelings aside. It would be a big mistake for Selig to knock Barry off the top and proclaim Hank the home run King.
Leave it as is, Barry hit the most, he should stay on top.

[philkid3]

Earlier, I said "Taking greenies is cheating". I need to expand a little more: While Hank Aaron did say he took a greenie once, that does not make him enough of a "cheater" to discount his home run total. We do have to take him at his word. That's all we have. It's not fair to him to assume that he's lying, especially when we have little reason to suspect that he isn't being truthful.

If we're going to call cheating enough to take away a player's numbers, and if we're going to call cheating taking an illegal substance that would eventually be banned by baseball, than, yes, I would say that once makes him enough of a cheater.

But I wouldn't say any of that other stuff first, either.


Cheating is cheating. Whether you do it once or 100 times. I may respect you more, but when it comes to something that should be objective my respect for a person doesn't matter.

[philkid3]

That's a matter of employment and law, which is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the rules of the game, strictly on the field.
So then take away the numbers for everyone who ever broke a rule for a game, with a memo being the minimum standard?

[spark240]

So then take away the numbers for everyone who ever broke a rule for a game, with a memo being the minimum standard?

No, I'm not advocating "taking away the numbers" for anyone. I'm not even sure what that would mean; how could you "take away" Bonds' homers, etc., without adjusting the records for the pitchers he faced, the runners on base ahead of him, his team, opposing teams, on and on.

Actually--deja vu--I think I made this exact point here about a year ago. Even if we somehow obtained reliable information on exactly who was juicing when, there's no way to mathematically separate out a set of players without screwing up the books for everyone.

As somebody said, Selig's not going to be breaking into the Baseball Reference server and wipe the traces of Bonds being in the game. :laugh

On the other hand, what Selig & co. may have in mind is a sort of ceremonial "return of the crown" to Aaron (and to Maris?), which would recognize an "official record holder" without changing or deleting any data which is in the books--basically, a statement that the league recognized the highest "unasterisked" number to be the "real" record.

Consider that, for example, recognition of "official" batting leaders for certain seasons has changed a few times, based on varying qualifying standards. In effect, MLB would be adding a new qualifying standard for home run records: absence of well-publicized steroid linkage. :crazy

Of course, such a contorted gesture would be pointless for many serious fans; we know who did what on the field, and we will come to our own conclusions about how to judge and compare those accomplishments. But maybe it really would help that mainstream perception I was talking about.

[philkid3]

Well then I don't think you and I are in disagreement. I don't like steroids, but I'm strongly opposed to revisionist history because I may hate them more than other things that are also still just cheating.

[Los Bravos]

If one record is going to be made illegit, good luck clensing the record books of every steroid influenced single season and lifetime record!:laugh It would be unfair and inconsistent to remove Bond's HR record, and not the rcords set by who-knows-how-many steroid users over the past 20 years. The official MLB record keepers are about to be working overtime.More than a few MVPs would have to change hands...personally, I'd like a mulligan on the '93 NLCS and maybe the '98 one (Caminiti) as well. While I'm at it, I'd like to have a look at the '96 Series, sans HGH-gorged Jim Leyritz.

It can't be done. The sooner that fool stops playing to the crowd and concentrates on moving forward, the better.

[sturg1dj]

this hasn't been said yet....on the bottom line of ESPNNews they are quoting Hank Aaron saying that Barry Bonds is the career home run leader period.


once again, Aaron showing the class he is known for. Case closed?

[plask_stirlac]

Admit it, we all know Barry Bonds is ROBBING Henry Aaron of esteem and prestige. It's all going to Barry. The Hammer is reviled and castigated.

Every day, it's Barry's so great, Barry's the best ever, why did we ever admire Ruth, Barry's a deity. Enough already! I know people love his spike in performance after 1999 but give it a rest!

The lovefest as he passed Mays, Ruth and Aaron was enough, I can't take anymore. At least look with the guy neutrally instead of lavishing praise on Mr Bonds.

---
Numbers are numbers. Why is slugging .500 good and .300 bad? We all know that. Was a .400 OBP as good in 1968 as it was in 1998? They're the same number.

People can decide what the numbers mean. The hate is out of control. If you don't want to admire or give accolades to anyone with a hint of PEDs, fine. Go for it. Ron Santo is not a Hall of Famer, that is absurd. And you think someone with PEDs will get in? What's this doomsday scenario, these guys are very unpopular compared to seven years ago. And we'll live through all of it.

But just let them be, don't force them down to push a previous player up. Look at Maris, a legit 61 HRs and championship that year but he lost his hair rapidly and died before his time. Enough!

[Los Bravos]

this hasn't been said yet....on the bottom line of ESPNNews they are quoting Hank Aaron saying that Barry Bonds is the career home run leader period.


once again, Aaron showing the class he is known for.Indeed. Case closed?For this particular, stupid notion? Yes. Hopefully "Bud" will pipe down about this, now.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Was a .400 OBP as good in 1968 as it was in 1998? They're the same number.

Carl Yastrzemski was the only player to have an OBP over .400 in 1968. That means that it was incredible that he did it.

[giantsrule]

this hasn't been said yet....on the bottom line of ESPNNews they are quoting Hank Aaron saying that Barry Bonds is the career home run leader period.


once again, Aaron showing the class he is known for. Case closed?




this hasn't been said yet....on the bottom line of ESPNNews they are quoting Hank Aaron saying that Barry Bonds is the career home run leader period.


once again, Aaron showing the class he is known for. Case closed?



had to quote it twice, becuase its that important, the homerun record belongs to mr. bonds...

[dominik]

this hasn't been said yet....on the bottom line of ESPNNews they are quoting Hank Aaron saying that Barry Bonds is the career home run leader period.


once again, Aaron showing the class he is known for. Case closed?

Indeed Aaron is a great guy, especially compared to Bonds...

But if you take Bonds out you must take out all modern players, like the Arod case shows. You can't be sure if anyone is clean.

[STLCards2]

While I'm at it, I'd like to have a look at the '96 Series, sans HGH-gorged Jim Leyritz.

.

Who did he hit that awful hoerun off of? I should remeber - I cried for a week. Quite a few of those Braves releivers from the early-mid 90's were probably on roids too. I have heard rumors about Rocker, Stanton, Merker, and Wholers. As far as 1993 - what about Gant? He looked like lightweight class body-builder. How did Pendleton suddenly become an offensive threat in his mid-30's? Justice has been linked to roids too. Lots of suspicion about Maddux scuffing baseballs.

That is the point...we can never know who or what was affected and how much. At some point we have to just move on, write off our losses, enforce the new policy, and stary enjoying the game again.

[cardsfanatic]

Lots of suspicion about Maddux scuffing baseballs.


NO WAY!

Greg Maddux is above any kind of cheating whatsoever!

[SamtheBravesFan]

Who did he hit that awful hoerun off of? I should remeber - I cried for a week. Quite a few of those Braves releivers from the early-mid 90's were probably on roids too. I have heard rumors about Rocker, Stanton, Merker, and Wholers. As far as 1993 - what about Gant? He looked like lightweight class body-builder. How did Pendleton suddenly become an offensive threat in his mid-30's? Justice has been linked to roids too. Lots of suspicion about Maddux scuffing baseballs.

That is the point...we can never know who or what was affected and how much. At some point we have to just move on, write off our losses, enforce the new policy, and stary enjoying the game again.

He hit it off of Mark Wohlers.

Pendleton was 30 years old. That's around the beginning of the decline phase, but it's not totally abnormal to do something like that, even if it's suspicious because it happened in the "Steroid Era".

[Los Bravos]

First off, I was largely being facetious. The last part of that post is the key part. In the end, we're on the same page about the need to concentrate on the present and future. I mentioned '96 because the way that Series was, and still is, portrayed in most media accounts (the scrappy underdog Yanks and their noble fans against the juggernaut Braves) has always rubbed me very wrong.

I'm not going to defend every single player the Braves had then, because I can't. I don't know about them all. It wouldn't surprise me if Rocker ate boiled babies.

I will say this much: TP also suddenly started playing his home games in a park where the outfield fence wasn't over the horizon, which helped, and if Gant did anything untoward, he's kept doing it because he looks exactly the same, now.

[STLCards2]

First off, I was largely being facetious. The last part of that post is the key part. In the end, we're on the same page about the need to concentrate on the present and future. I mentioned '96 because the way that Series was, and still is, portrayed in most media accounts (the scrappy underdog Yanks and their noble fans against the juggernaut Braves) has always rubbed me very wrong.

I'm not going to defend every single player the Braves had then, because I can't. I don't know about them all. It wouldn't surprise me if Rocker ate boiled babies.

I will say this much: TP also suddenly started playing his home games in a park where the outfield fence wasn't over the horizon, which helped, and if Gant did anything untoward, he's kept doing it because he looks exactly the same, now.

I was not accusing any Braves' players of being roiders. My point was...we have no idea. I wouldn't be shocked, however, if every single regular season standing and postseason series from the late 80s -mid-00's was affected by steroids. I am sure the Braves were no exepction. That was my whole point, and one you agree with. We will never get to the bottom of it -so lets move on from here: be tough with new pocily, and "forget" about what happened 3-10 years ago.


I'm not trying to hate - you know the Braves are my "B" squad!:gt :waving

[Los Bravos]

We will never get to the bottom of it -so lets move on from here: be tough with new pocily, and "forget" about what happened 3-10 years ago.I tend to agree. The toothpaste is well out of the tube.

Having said that, if the BBWAA wants to hold it against these guys, I'm fine with that, too.I'm not trying to hate - you know the Braves are my "B" squad!:gt :wavingI know.

And none of this diminishes all of the enjoyment the game gave me during this era.

[White Knight]

He admitted to taking an amphetimine pill in his 1991 autobiography I Had A Hammer. Taking greenies is cheating.

Aaron also said in the book that he never did it again, but of course, some people don't believe that.

And count me in as another "Leave the record books alone" person.

Was it over the counter in the early 70's when he took it? Was it banned by baseball or the law? If the answer is no, then it's not cheating.

If creatine gets banned, will you look back at players from 2008 and call them cheaters?

[fenrir]

i say leave the record alone. people are smart, they know it's tainted. messing with the record books would just be a big mess.