What's a worse offense?

[Paulypal]

I just read the web story where Strawberry admitted to having sex during games, and how the team was always drinking, on speed or coked up. Now that behavior is obviously not going to make a player perform at a high level for long. As a Met fan I feel cheated that I was not getting the best from these guys on a daily basis. They won a WS but they had the talent to be better this is probably a big reason why.

Honestly, I would rather have my players going the other way and juice. Neither option is a good one, but given an option atleast do something that has potential to make you better not destroy your career.

Say what you want about Mac, Clemens or Bonds,,,on the field they performed at high level for a long time. Say for whatever reason you like but the fact is Bonds hit 762 balls over the fence.

Compare that to Straw, and Gooden who cheated the fans on the opposite end of the spectrum by cutting their careers short with drugs, and alcohol. You can say there is no place for either one in baseball, but lets not be nieve, cheating to get better and drugs, boozing and womanizing have always been part of the game.................and always will.

[ipitch]

Say what you want about Mac, Clemens or Bonds,,,on the field they performed at high level for a long time. Say for whatever reason you like but the fact is Bonds hit 762 balls over the fence.

That's a myth...Bonds hit 3 inside-the-park HRs. :D

[gman5431]

I would side with the players who did coke, drank exessively and had sex in the clubhouse during the game. At least they didnt cheat.

G Man

[Paulypal]

I would side with the players who did coke, drank exessively and had sex in the clubhouse during the game. At least they didnt cheat.

G Man

Wow. Excellent.

I think maybe the fans were cheated by peformers that werent performing at their top level.

[gman5431]

Wow. Excellent.

I think maybe the fans were cheated by peformers that werent performing at their top level.

No, in that case, they were only cheating themselves.

G Man

[gman5431]

No asterisk for being a booze hound - ask Babe Ruth.

G Man

[redlegsfan21]

I feel that the story about those Mets is worse than PEDs. I pay my own money to watch my team win and if they are not giving at least 90% (I give them some rest, after all it is a long season), why would I care. They are being paid to play and I want them to do exactly that to the best of their ability.

[sturg1dj]

I would side with the players who did coke, drank exessively and had sex in the clubhouse during the game. At least they didnt cheat.

G Man

actually they did cheat, they broke the same unenforceable rules that Bonds broke

[FrenchyLefebvre]

Straw also mentions gambling in the article I saw on "Page 6". (No surprise with Dykstra, who has bragged about all the gambling which went on in the Phils' clubhouse in 1993.)

The Mets finished, what, 3 games behind the Cards in 1987?

Where may they have finished had their ACE pitcher NOT been chilling out at Smithers for a month of that season?

I was POed -- and I'm not even a Mets fan!

Wonder from whom the cokeheads GOT their illegal drugs? Surely not from upstanding, first-class citizens. Wonder what happens when a druggie gets desperate for a fix?

[Imgran]

Straw also mentions gambling in the article I saw on "Page 6". (No surprise with Dykstra, who has bragged about all the gambling which went on in the Phils' clubhouse in 1993.)

The Mets finished, what, 3 games behind the Cards in 1987?

Where may they have finished had their ACE pitcher NOT been chilling out at Smithers for a month of that season?

I was POed -- and I'm not even a Mets fan!

Wonder from whom the cokeheads GOT their illegal drugs? Surely not from upstanding, first-class citizens. Wonder what happens when a druggie gets desperate for a fix?

That's an excellent point, and it kind of applies to the dopers too. Anytime you do something shady you give people power over you to make you do things you don't want to do.

[joshfan]

I just read the web story where Strawberry admitted to having sex during games, and how the team was always drinking, on speed or coked up. Now that behavior is obviously not going to make a player perform at a high level for long. As a Met fan I feel cheated that I was not getting the best from these guys on a daily basis. They won a WS but they had the talent to be better this is probably a big reason why.

Honestly, I would rather have my players going the other way and juice. Neither option is a good one, but given an option atleast do something that has potential to make you better not destroy your career.

Say what you want about Mac, Clemens or Bonds,,,on the field they performed at high level for a long time. Say for whatever reason you like but the fact is Bonds hit 762 balls over the fence.

Compare that to Straw, and Gooden who cheated the fans on the opposite end of the spectrum by cutting their careers short with drugs, and alcohol. You can say there is no place for either one in baseball, but lets not be nieve, cheating to get better and drugs, boozing and womanizing have always been part of the game.................and always will.
Dude, I have been on this for years but folks don't get it
Give me a guy trying to better his output over a guy trashing his abilities every time

[rockin500]

I'd rather have my players juicing up over what strawberry is describing.

[Paulypal]

I'd rather have my players juicing up over what strawberry is describing.

That was my point exactly. I am Mets fan and I think its disgusting that people were going to games while these guys were not respecting the game, the fans or more importantly themselves.

They probalby had the best team in baseball for a 3 year period and should have atleast got to another series.

[TheMadDog31]

Wonder from whom the cokeheads GOT their illegal drugs?

Probably Pittsburgh.

Just ask Keith Hernandez.

[NYMets523]

Steroids because it's done for selfish reasons ($), is cheating, and disrespects the game.

Recreational drugs only hurt the user.

[Otis Nixon's Bodyguard]

I understand your point Paulypal, but can't totally agree with it. I consider steroid use to be worse from a baseball standpoint because it is a form of cheating and compromises the integrity of the game. I consider Strawberry's behavior worse from a personal standpoint because it is destructive, whereas steroid use is, by some twisted logic, an attempt at self-improvement. In other words, I have more respect for Mark McGwire (a likely steroid user who seems to otherwise be a decent human being) than Darryl Strawberry (an apparent low-life who abused recreational drugs), however I would rather get rid of steroids in baseball than weed out all of the guys who simply like to party and chase women.

[philkid3]

Steroids because it's done for selfish reasons ($), is cheating, and disrespects the game.

Recreational drugs only hurt the user.
Recreational drugs aren't done for selfish reasons? Really? And are we assuming that players doing everything they can to be as good as possible isn't ever selfish?

Recreational drugs only hurt the user? Not the teammates? Or the families? Or the fans who want to see winning and not self-destruction?


In the abscence of a "neither" choice I'd easily take a team of steroid users trying to deliver championships than a team of druggies trying to kill themselves without trying to be better athletes at the same time.

[Mattingly]

Gambling on a game would be my #1 problem. I also couldn't care less whether the person "bet on their team to win", which is what some have used to justify Rose's betting as being somewhat acceptable. No gambling of anys sort is allowed in baseball, and none is less illegal or unacceptable than the next.

Use of steroids and/or other performance enhancing drugs would be my second pet peeve.

Use of narcotics would be next on my list.

Having wild parties would be a serious annoyance to me, but I've known for years that the Mets had some very wild parties with women, be they at the hotels, on the plane or wherever. Sometimes the local journalists would look the other way, since they had to cover the same guys, and needed to get the story in order to get paid.

[NYMets523]

Recreational drugs aren't done for selfish reasons? Really?
I should have used greedy instead of selfish.

And are we assuming that players doing everything they can to be as good as possible isn't ever selfish?
There's a difference between doing it through hard work and using PEDs. The latter is just the easy and quick solution.

Recreational drugs only hurt the user? Not the teammates? Or the families? Or the fans who want to see winning and not self-destruction?
Physically, yes. Recreational drugs only hurt the user. Can't say for teammates and families because it varies case by case. As for the fans, with the '86 Mets at least, there were a lot more significant reasons why they never became a dynasty than players using drugs.

In the abscence of a "neither" choice I'd easily take a team of steroid users trying to deliver championships than a team of druggies trying to kill themselves without trying to be better athletes at the same time.
I'd rather a team of drug users. Their successes wouldn't be tainted. I don't care if they're doing it to be better athletes, it's still cheating.

[stavros]

I just read the web story where Strawberry admitted to having sex during games, and how the team was always drinking, on speed or coked up. Now that behavior is obviously not going to make a player perform at a high level for long. As a Met fan I feel cheated that I was not getting the best from these guys on a daily basis. They won a WS but they had the talent to be better this is probably a big reason why.

.

As a player I feel cheated when you come to a game, get drunk, act like an idiot and dont stand up and cheer at the top of your lungs whenever i make a good play.

Who are you to tell a player how they live their life on OR off the field? How my drug use affects my family and the people around me is my problem.

You getting angry over a player having sex in the middle of games is like Strawberry getting angry because you had a quickie with your wife in the bathroom during the 7th inning stretch.

Such disrespect and no integrity for the game! Oh the poor, poor fans!

[Paulypal]

[QUOTE=NYMets523;1429963]There's a difference between doing it through hard work and using PEDs. The latter is just the easy and quick solution./QUOTE]

No disrepect intended, but again you show a lack of knowledge. The guys that take steroids are some of the hardest workers. I know it doesnt sound like it adds up, but taking steroids alone will do nothing. Take Bonds, Arod now, Mac, Clemens,, all of them are known for working very hard. Lifiting weights, running, baseball training activities.

The thing that you may or may not know is that the one big thing that steroids does for athletes even moreso than strength is help recovery time. It allows these guys to train like animals and comeback and do it again.

If you think you take steroids and all the magic happens...you are so off base its ridiculous. Although I cant blame you 100% because thats what the media and others that have no clue what steroids actually do will tell you. Although yes it is not right, but the actually taking of steroids is where the work actually starts.

[Paulypal]

As a player I feel cheated when you come to a game, get drunk, act like an idiot and dont stand up and cheer at the top of your lungs whenever i make a good play.

Who are you to tell a player how they live their life on OR off the field? How my drug use affects my family and the people around me is my problem.

You getting angry over a player having sex in the middle of games is like Strawberry getting angry because you had a quickie with your wife in the bathroom during the 7th inning stretch.

Such disrespect and no integrity for the game! Oh the poor, poor fans!

Wow interesting. The sex was only part of it. My point was people go crazy over roids but this type of behavior somehow became ok.

[NYMets523]

No disrepect intended, but again you show a lack of knowledge. The guys that take steroids are some of the hardest workers. I know it doesnt sound like it adds up, but taking steroids alone will do nothing. Take Bonds, Arod now, Mac, Clemens,, all of them are known for working very hard. Lifiting weights, running, baseball training activities.
That makes it even worse, IMO. They don't even need the steroids; they were never in the position where they needed for fight for a roster spot like some users have. Regardless of how hard they work, it's still cheating.

The thing that you may or may not know is that the one big thing that steroids does for athletes even moreso than strength is help recovery time. It allows these guys to train like animals and comeback and do it again.

If you think you take steroids and all the magic happens...you are so off base its ridiculous. Although I cant blame you 100% because thats what the media and others that have no clue what steroids actually do will tell you. Although yes it is not right, but the actually taking of steroids is where the work actually starts.

I knew all of that.

[Paulypal]

That makes it even worse, IMO. They don't even need the steroids; they were never in the position where they needed for fight for a roster spot like some users have. Regardless of how hard they work, it's still cheating.



I knew all of that.

With some guys its not about the roster spot, some guys are addicted to being great and will do anything to stay that way. Other guys want the big pay day..I think Tejada is a perfect example of that . While yet other guys -- and this is the majority of steroid users-- are just trying to make a team. Trying to cash a major league check and stay up. You dont hear about all those guys because its just not as entertaining to talk about Joe Schmoe as it is to talk about Bonds and that sanctity of records garbage.

[jnakamura]

I just read the web story where Strawberry admitted to having sex during games, and how the team was always drinking, on speed or coked up. Now that behavior is obviously not going to make a player perform at a high level for long. As a Met fan I feel cheated that I was not getting the best from these guys on a daily basis. They won a WS but they had the talent to be better this is probably a big reason why.

Honestly, I would rather have my players going the other way and juice. Neither option is a good one, but given an option atleast do something that has potential to make you better not destroy your career.

Say what you want about Mac, Clemens or Bonds,,,on the field they performed at high level for a long time. Say for whatever reason you like but the fact is Bonds hit 762 balls over the fence.

Compare that to Straw, and Gooden who cheated the fans on the opposite end of the spectrum by cutting their careers short with drugs, and alcohol. You can say there is no place for either one in baseball, but lets not be nieve, cheating to get better and drugs, boozing and womanizing have always been part of the game.................and always will.

That's like a teacher saying he'd rather have students who cheat and get good marks than students who party and don't study.

Absurd POV IMO.

[Paulypal]

That's like a teacher saying he'd rather have students who cheat and get good marks than students who party and don't study.

Absurd POV IMO.

Absurd analogy. The student that cheats doesnt need to know the material. A hitter or pitcher on the juice still needs to know and have a very very high skill set to play at the level....try again.

So would rather watch guys throw their careers away like Gooden and Strawberry?

I would rather watch player for whatever reason they deem necessary to perform at a high level to be entertained. I do not deem these records as sacred. I wanted to see Bonds break Aarons record of 755. Bonds was the most feared hitter I ever saw. I dont really care what the reason was because I enjoyed watching him play. Period. We will never now for sure but I am betting a higher percentage than we will ever know of the pitchers he faced werent clean either.

Unless you can tell me drugs on any level in any era didnt play a role in performance then I dont want to hear anything about steroids. I am in the vast minority - i know - but I dont consider steroids as any more cheating as a pitcher scuffing the ball, or taking amphetamines.

All of these holier than thou people that comdemn the steroid takers...I wonder what they would do if taking steroids would quadruple their salary, or "cheat" in another fashion.

I respect Mike Schmidt and Jim Kaat, as both said they would take them if they were available to them to get an edge. Its very easy to sit on the soapbox and preach when you dont have to make that decision.

[joshfan]

Steroids because it's done for selfish reasons ($), is cheating, and disrespects the game.

Recreational drugs only hurt the user.
What?
Recreational, as you called them, drugs hurt the user you bet ,they also hurt thier teammates, fans, employers and everyone else expecting 100% for thier money
0for 4 because you are hungover or jonesing is a lot worse for a team then a guy doing peds

[sturg1dj]

What?
Recreational, as you called them, drugs hurt the user you bet ,they also hurt thier teammates, fans, employers and everyone else expecting 100% for thier money
0for 4 because you are hungover or jonesing is a lot worse for a team then a guy doing peds


so basically players doing everything they can to play better are bad, but players who throw away their skills by taking recreational drugs (and not weed mind you, but rougher stuff) are ok?

I always thought the American dream was if you work hard you will succeed. Yet when players go the extra mile they are destroyed. Of course the American game has always been un-American in structure.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Wow interesting. The sex was only part of it. My point was people go crazy over roids but this type of behavior somehow became ok.

Probably because the theme here seems to be cheating to boost performance, gain an edge.

I don't condone much of what Straw did, but I doubt sex especially during a game has the same potential that steroids could have to boosting performance in some.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

so basically players doing everything they can to play better are bad, but players who throw away their skills by taking recreational drugs (and not weed mind you, but rougher stuff) are ok?

I always thought the American dream was if you work hard you will succeed. Yet when players go the extra mile they are destroyed. Of course the American game has always been un-American in structure.

I assume part of that extra mile in using a chemical, banned is included.

The big issue on the front burner on most threads deals with players and use of PEDs to boost performance.
I certainly think it is foolish and destructive to use any drugs that wll not boost performance and waste talent, thats also no good.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

[QUOTE=NYMets523;1429963]There's a difference between doing it through hard work and using PEDs. The latter is just the easy and quick solution./QUOTE]

No disrepect intended, but again you show a lack of knowledge. The guys that take steroids are some of the hardest workers. I know it doesnt sound like it adds up, but taking steroids alone will do nothing. Take Bonds, Arod now, Mac, Clemens,, all of them are known for working very hard. Lifiting weights, running, baseball training activities.

The thing that you may or may not know is that the one big thing that steroids does for athletes even moreso than strength is help recovery time. It allows these guys to train like animals and comeback and do it again.

If you think you take steroids and all the magic happens...you are so off base its ridiculous. Although I cant blame you 100% because thats what the media and others that have no clue what steroids actually do will tell you. Although yes it is not right, but the actually taking of steroids is where the work actually starts.

OH, so what does that mean, if some take steroids and thats all, thats bad.
But, if one uses steroids but works hard, thats OK, at least he supplements one with the other.
Even if it is against a rule..............hey, give the guy a break, he's also working out hard.