Jeter

[sturg1dj]

Jeter is currently looking good since no clubhouse attendant or trainer has named him, but is there anyone else who is hoping he is one of the 104?

not because he is a Yankee, I could care less...but because he is a golden boy that so many think is above all of this. He is one of those that people are still clinging to in hopes that he didn't use. An untouchable, like Ripken or Griffey.

but I was watching so old baseball games on ESPN classic from the late 80's and early 90's and one thing I noticed is there were no opposite field home runs. Especially from middle infielders. Now Derek Jeter was the king of the opposite field home run for awhile. Takes a lot of strength to do that.

Now once again, don't think this is about teams. I am a Tiger fan and I am pretty darn sure that former Tiger Pudge Rodriguez will be on that list along with current Tiger Gary Sheffield and also Marcus Thames is not above suspicion. Plus the Tigers are the lucky team to have had three of the smallest players involved with steroids so far (Alex Sanchez, Nook Logan, Neifi Perez).

[Seattle1]

...one thing I noticed is there were no opposite field home runs. Especially from middle infielders. Now Derek Jeter was the king of the opposite field home run for awhile. Takes a lot of strength to do that.

Remember that time when Felix Hernandez hit that opposite field grand slam against Santana? That was amazing! That was the first grand slam by an AL pitcher in about 40 years!

:clapping

As to Jeter, wouldn't that be something if he was found to be a user too.

[slugger33]

Was Neifi Perez suspended for steroids? I thought it was amphetamines...Anyway if Jeter has a positive test, I will lose hope in all players.

[giantsrule]

i dont think he did, his body hasnt really changed too much over the years, atleast not roid-induced change like some of the other players...

[cardsfanatic]

Jeter is currently looking good since no clubhouse attendant or trainer has named him, but is there anyone else who is hoping he is one of the 104?

not because he is a Yankee, I could care less...but because he is a golden boy that so many think is above all of this. He is one of those that people are still clinging to in hopes that he didn't use. An untouchable, like Ripken or Griffey.

but I was watching so old baseball games on ESPN classic from the late 80's and early 90's and one thing I noticed is there were no opposite field home runs. Especially from middle infielders. Now Derek Jeter was the king of the opposite field home run for awhile. Takes a lot of strength to do that.

Now once again, don't think this is about teams. I am a Tiger fan and I am pretty darn sure that former Tiger Pudge Rodriguez will be on that list along with current Tiger Gary Sheffield and also Marcus Thames is not above suspicion. Plus the Tigers are the lucky team to have had three of the smallest players involved with steroids so far (Alex Sanchez, Nook Logan, Neifi Perez).

Well, I don't want to wish anything bad on anyone. Buuuuuuuuut, I would probably let out a big grin inside if Greg Maddux or Ken Griffey Jr. were named. Just to toss out a few. Or Craig Biggio, for that matter. I know Jeter has his diehard fans that think he can walk on water but he also has his detractors that say he sucks.

But everytime a Griffey, Maddux or Biggio pops up, it's almost universally accepted that "NO WAY they used, duuuuuurrrrrrrr."

[CROM]

I honestly dont want anyone else to be implicated, especially Jeter.

Greg Maddux, Jeter, Griffey Jr. are 3 of the players that i hope, for baseballs sake, are never implicated.

[Ubiquitous]

According to Shane Monahan every player, except for Dan Wilson, on the Mariners in the late 90's were taking at least greenies and a lot of the were taking steroids.


That means Alex Rodriguez, Edgar Martinez, and Ken Griffey Jr. are at least speed freaks

[steve rogers]

Jeter would surprise me. So would Mariano. Ripken wouldn't. Griffey wouldn't. Ichiro I'd be a little surprised. Maddux I'd be surprised. Randy Johnson I wouldn't. Ortiz wouldn't. As a Yankee fan 2 guys I've suspected for years are Broscious and Tino. My point is no one is above suspicion. No one.

Scott F

[Ubiquitous]

David Ortiz has already done his non-denial denial when he stated he might have taken steroids but wasn't sure because he didn't know what he took while working out in a foriegn country.

[Hysteria]

Yeah while were at it lets just go down the list and name everyone target all the the guys the won with the yankees in the 90's while were at it. Tino,Paully, Bernie, Girardi, Posada,Brosius, Mariano. Yup they all used. Hell probably Ruth did too.

[cardsfanatic]

I honestly dont want anyone else to be implicated, especially Jeter.

Greg Maddux, Jeter, Griffey Jr. are 3 of the players that i hope, for baseballs sake, are never implicated.

Well, it won't change my opinion of them anyway. I couldn't care less about steroids, honestly. I don't feel the record book is tainted and I certainly don't feel cheated. Then again, I'm not really one of those guys that concerns himself with baseball history, either. I know about it... but I don't care how the numbers were obtained -- past or present. Should I start marking every pre-integration player out of my record books? Then what about the greenie users? Ok, then what about the guys who hit .350 all the time because of the kagillion "missed plays" on defense due to the gloves being the size of todays batting gloves? Balls that would be caught today went through for hits during those eras. Should I take all of those guys out? Blah, blah.

Who. Cares.

But, I have a real thorn in my side by the people who say there's no way so-so used (Griffey, Biggio, Maddux etc...) yet say it's obvious so-so used (insert a player they don't like) and then cite evidence that is just as true for Maddux, Griffey, Biggio etc...

So, if for no other reason... I'd be smiling if one of those three names were on the report.

[CROM]

Well, it won't change my opinion of them anyway. I couldn't care less about steroids, honestly. I don't feel the record book is tainted and I certainly don't feel cheated. Then again, I'm not really one of those guys that concerns himself with baseball history, either. I know about it... but I don't care how the numbers were obtained -- past or present. Should I start marking every pre-integration player out of my record books? Then what about the greenie users? Ok, then what about the guys who hit .350 all the time because of the kagillion "missed plays" on defense due to the gloves being the size of todays batting gloves? Balls that would be caught today went through for hits during those eras. Should I take all of those guys out? Blah, blah.

Who. Cares.

But, I have a real thorn in my side by the people who say there's no way so-so used (Griffey, Biggio, Maddux etc...) yet say it's obvious so-so used (insert a player they don't like) and then cite evidence that is just as true for Maddux, Griffey, Biggio etc...

So, if for no other reason... I'd be smiling if one of those three names were on the report.

I actually agree with most of what youve said. Well, not the smiling part but i too really dont care about professional atheletes using PEDs. I dont feel cheated nor have i ever felt that way. I think that most people, including the fans, knew and turned a blind eye to it for the most part. I dont advocate throwing a person under the bus only now that its public.

[KCGHOST]

I hope when I hear the list of the remaining 103 guys I go "who the hell are they??"

[YankeeDJW]

Where is the pleasure in watching someone's good reputation be torn to shreds and life thrown into turmoil and misery over a game? Are you happy that McGwire can never use the good will he built up over the years in a positive way? Do you sleep better knowing Clemens and his family will never be the same in private life or in the public's eye because of the allegations raised the past few years? Does your life suck so much that you want to see others fall just so you can expel some pent up anger that you never reached the level of success that they did? I don't understand. I love the game of baseball and it pains me to see the controversy surrounding it. All great achievements will now be questioned and accusations of steroid use will be forever made. Whether it is moving past segregation or coping with 9/11, baseball has played a role in American society that no other sport has. Now it's image is being tarnished and it amazes me that there are some who wish to see even more so. Like KCGHOST said, I hope I have no idea who the other 103 are and we can finally move past the issue.

[sturg1dj]

Where is the pleasure in watching someone's good reputation be torn to shreds and life thrown into turmoil and misery over a game? Are you happy that McGwire can never use the good will he built up over the years in a positive way? Do you sleep better knowing Clemens and his family will never be the same in private life or in the public's eye because of the allegations raised the past few years? Does your life suck so much that you want to see others fall just so you can expel some pent up anger that you never reached the level of success that they did? I don't understand. I love the game of baseball and it pains me to see the controversy surrounding it. All great achievements will now be questioned and accusations of steroid use will be forever made. Whether it is moving past segregation or coping with 9/11, baseball has played a role in American society that no other sport has. Now it's image is being tarnished and it amazes me that there are some who wish to see even more so. Like KCGHOST said, I hope I have no idea who the other 103 are and we can finally move past the issue.

the pleasure is not with the pain the player gets. I just feel there has to be someone and some point where the writers finally start looking at the era as something other than good vs. evil.

I want there to be an end of people saying he couldn't have used because he didn't hit HR's or he didn't get huge or the worst which is because he seems like a nice moral guy. It has nothing to do with that, it boils down to the pressure one feels in an ultra-competitive field that pays based on performance and does not care about "how you play the game." Until they start exploring these areas instead of making it a moral issue I want nicer guys and bigger players to test positive.

[Mattingly]

Jeter is currently looking good since no clubhouse attendant or trainer has named him, but is there anyone else who is hoping he is one of the 104?

not because he is a Yankee, I could care less...but because he is a golden boy that so many think is above all of this. He is one of those that people are still clinging to in hopes that he didn't use. An untouchable, like Ripken or Griffey.

but I was watching so old baseball games on ESPN classic from the late 80's and early 90's and one thing I noticed is there were no opposite field home runs. Especially from middle infielders. Now Derek Jeter was the king of the opposite field home run for awhile. Takes a lot of strength to do that.

Now once again, don't think this is about teams. I am a Tiger fan and I am pretty darn sure that former Tiger Pudge Rodriguez will be on that list along with current Tiger Gary Sheffield and also Marcus Thames is not above suspicion. Plus the Tigers are the lucky team to have had three of the smallest players involved with steroids so far (Alex Sanchez, Nook Logan, Neifi Perez).
Derek Jeter rarely even hits home runs. He's had 58 dingers in the last 4 years. Also, back then, shortstops were very short. He's about 6'3", 200 lbs, about the size of a decent college quarterback. He's not tiny, looks in good shape.

You can hate on Jeter all you want. How many other athletes that are still active have stayed away from beating up their girlfriends, DWI arrests, weapons possessions, look as good as he does, and has won championships? If you want to see him fail, then perhaps we should have guys who are less polished out there. They also won't be seen in as many advertisements as Jeter would.

I believe that Jeter brings a good image to baseball. You want to watch someone else, that's fine. However, if that someone else doesn't bring as many fans to the games, don't complain if you don't see your baseball game on TV as often, since fewer people are watching.

[Mattingly]

I hope when I hear the list of the remaining 103 guys I go "who the hell are they??"
I seriously doubt that. Rodriguez may be the biggest fish to have been accused of late, but that doesn't mean he'll be the only one. If someone is a starting player and needs a quick fix to get his offense more powerful, I'm sure that you'll find lots of people, some of whom are better players than others.

[Imgran]

Jeter would very much surprise me.

I've already come to terms with the distinct possibility that Big Papi will show up on a list someday.

Two guys would destroy my faith in baseball if their names came out, and they're both pitchers -- Pedro Martinez and Curt Schilling.

Every player who comes out of that era that it turns out was a steroid junkie just increases the awesome that was vintage Pedro -- as long as he himself was clean.

Meanwhile Curt Schilling has talked so much about how hard he had to work to go from being an average NL reliever to one of the more dominant late bloomers in baseball -- it would crush my sense of what the guy is. And the thing with Schill is -- he came around at just the right time for it to have been part of that rush of steroid use we saw in the 90's. Eep.

Anyone else, right up to Tek (rumors about him the last go round) I can come to terms with, but if Pedro and Schill appear on that list I'll have a very hard time coming to grips with that.

[Mattingly]

Jeter would very much surprise me.

I've already come to terms with the distinct possibility that Big Papi will show up on a list someday.

Two guys would destroy my faith in baseball if their names came out, and they're both pitchers -- Pedro Martinez and Curt Schilling.

Every player who comes out of that era that it turns out was a steroid junkie just increases the awesome that was vintage Pedro -- as long as he himself was clean.

Meanwhile Curt Schilling has talked so much about how hard he had to work to go from being an average NL reliever to one of the more dominant late bloomers in baseball -- it would crush my sense of what the guy is. And the thing with Schill is -- he came around at just the right time for it to have been part of that rush of steroid use we saw in the 90's. Eep.

Anyone else, right up to Tek (rumors about him the last go round) I can come to terms with, but if Pedro and Schill appear on that list I'll have a very hard time coming to grips with that.
Ortiz I've suspected for awhile. He wasn't as powerful when he was with the Twins, then suddenly was an overnight sensation.

Pedro I've suspected, since he has a very small frame and was a power pitcher. I'd likely be much more upset of Maddux' name turned up than Schilling.

Schilling is usually doing his bit to tell other players to own up to their actions if they're caught. He'd heavily criticized his one-time mentor Clemens when he was accused, so Schilling's name appearing on this is something he couldn't have. Knowing him, he'd explain things away to Gammons in 20,000 words or less ... or maybe a few more. :D

[runningshoes]

I don't think he used.

[Dirt Dog]

He is one of those that people are still clinging to in hopes that he didn't use. An untouchable, like Ripken or Griffey.

No one is untouchable...these days it really doesn't surprise me who's done it or still doing it.

[Brad Harris]

Was Neifi Perez suspended for steroids? I thought it was amphetamines...Anyway if Jeter has a positive test, I will lose hope in all players.
The way Perez hits, you'd think he was playing stoned.

[Berkman#17]

Ortiz I've suspected for awhile. He wasn't as powerful when he was with the Twins, then suddenly was an overnight sensation.

Ortiz always had big power numbers in the minors, then when he got to Minnesota, they changed his swing and wanted him to try and be just a line drive hitter. Not the get-up-there-and-let-it-FLY that a man of his size should be. Once he got to Boston they let him do what he does, as you wouldn't want a 6'4 250lb'r looking to go up the middle all the time, same as you wouldn't want Ryan Theriot to try and muscle up and visit Waveland every 3rd AB.

It is very evident when you compare his swings from the Twins to the Red Sox. And he talked about it in his book where he said "You want me to hit like a little bi***?", which was basically how they wanted him to swing.

I'm not saying he did or didn't, but there is much more to the story of why he didn't hit for power with the Twins, but became a monster with the Sox. The power was always there, somebody was just holding him back. Papa Jack and Tito let him do his thing, and his numbers showed what he was capable of.

but I was watching so old baseball games on ESPN classic from the late 80's and early 90's and one thing I noticed is there were no opposite field home runs. Especially from middle infielders. Now Derek Jeter was the king of the opposite field home run for awhile. Takes a lot of strength to do that.

Ironically Bonds first HR in the MLB was an opposite field shot. But, going oppo for a HR isn't all about brute strength. That isn't a good argument for Jeter being on roids. As was mentioned earlier, the size of MIF's in the 80's was much smaller than what Jeter is. He's not huge weight wise, but at 6'3, he's still a good sized dude. Plus given his inside-out swing and approach, he's always had good natural opposite field power. You see that in alot of guys that have similar swings and approaches. His game isn't trying to pull the ball out of the ball park down the LF line. It's about up the middle and RC field. Couple his size, bat speed, and swing/approach; and you're going to see a good amount of opposite field home runs from him. Plus you don't have to hit the ball a mile to get it out at RF in Yankee Stadium.

[Ubiquitous]

Ortiz has already laid the groundwork down for a steroid event. He has claimed that he might have taken steroids because he took supplements in the Caribbean and he believes they could have put anything in them.

[Imgran]

Of course the whole thread is an archetype of something I very much hate -- a blind accusation of players with limited info at best just because it "makes snese" that they're guilty. Foolish.

[Dogdaze]

While I doubt Jeter ever juiced, sadly nothing would completely suprise me at this point.

[Paulypal]

I always suspected Ripken and Griffey. Although I hope not but steroids's biggest asset is recovery and Ripken's streak is a testament to his ability to recovery from nagging injuries and such.

Griffey has had a couple of injuries where muscle and tendon has torn from the bone. That to me is a huge red flag.

Other suspects that are under the radar right now as far as I am concerened:

Nomar
Piazza
Mo VAughn
Albert Belle
Bret Boone
Omar Vizquel...yes that Omar Vizquel
Bagwell
Gabe Kapler
Jay Payton
Jeff Kent
Rich Aurillia
Todd Helton - oh where did my power go - dont tell me his back injury please

[FrenchyLefebvre]

There are components in supplements found in every vitamin store which were "just fine" before, but are NOW (late) additions to the "banned" list.

Every player and his mother's tests would probably be positive if the samples they previously gave was re-tested today.

Some "perfectly legal" stuff Jeter (or anyone else) bought at their local GNC even last year could test positive today.

The players who blatantly went about it ilegally are the ones who should have it on their conscience. Unless whistle blowers keep crawling out of the woodwork with books, we'll never know who was "honest" and who was not.

NO player from this era is safe, IMO. None. Unless he stuck to drinking Milk!

[deadball-era-rules]

In the end, all of my faith in baseball is now on the broad shoulders of Albert Pujols. He's my favorite player, and a great human being. If he were to fail a test I would never watch another game- ever. I think he's the one sure-fire power hitter with no ties to performance enhancers at all. It would break my heart if I heard otherwise.

[ttmman21]

I don think Ripken or Jeter were on roids, both neverr "blasted homers" like Canseco or Griffey or McGwire or A-Rod

Ripken would not even be on the list as he retired in 01

[spark240]

That means Alex Rodriguez, Edgar Martinez, and Ken Griffey Jr. are at least speed freaks

You throw a lot of accusations around.

Just taking amphetamines doesn't make somebody a "speed freak."

[csh19792001]

You throw a lot of accusations around.

Just taking amphetamines doesn't make somebody a "speed freak."

Lately, he has been throwing a ton of accusations around indeed.

[NYMets523]

I always suspected Ripken and Griffey. Although I hope not but steroids's biggest asset is recovery and Ripken's streak is a testament to his ability to recovery from nagging injuries and such.
You're right, it is suspicious. I bet Gehrig juiced, too.

Todd Helton - oh where did my power go - dont tell me his back injury please

It happened to Mattingly.

[Ubiquitous]

Lately, he has been throwing a ton of accusations around indeed.

I've just decided to join the choir that has been around here for many years. Nobody seem to mind throwing around accusations of modern players with little or no proof for years so why should only modern players get the enjoyment of you folks' logic and deductive ability?

[Ubiquitous]

You throw a lot of accusations around.

Just taking amphetamines doesn't make somebody a "speed freak."

Actually those are not my accusations but Shane Monahan's, who actually played for the Seattle Mariners and said that the Mariner's locker room was a drug den in which all players were taking at the very least amphetamines except for Dan Wilson who's drug of choice was Jesus.

[csh19792001]

I've just decided to join the choir that has been around here for many years.

Why should only modern players get the enjoyment of you folks' logic and deductive ability?

As if the players actually care (or are even aware of) internet banter and discourse.

Oh, and a belated welcome to the plebeian masses! :p Enjoy your respite here with the rest of us "common folk". :laugh

[Paulypal]

You're right, it is suspicious. I bet Gehrig juiced, too. It happened to Mattingly.

Again and again my friend you show lack of knowledge by typing before you think.

Gehrig played first base and Ripken a much more demanding shortstop. Gehrig on many occassions also took one at bat and left the game as where Ripken played for years playing all 9 innings.

Maybe Mattingly did. The most homers he ever hit in a minor league season was 10 in 476 at bats. Then he starts hitting 30+ at the major league level. NOBODY is beyond suspicion.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Whats next to be believed, wrestling is a real sport, it's legit.

So we have to believe that there were so many, the list is getting longer, that used something, they don't know, may have been steroids, they're not sure.
Going back to what I said long ago, just a way out in case it's proven they did use.

Sure, you used a substance but your not sure exactly what is was.

[Berkman#17]

Again and again my friend you show lack of knowledge by typing before you think.

Gehrig played first base and Ripken a much more demanding shortstop. Gehrig on many occassions also took one at bat and left the game as where Ripken played for years playing all 9 innings.

Maybe Mattingly did. The most homers he ever hit in a minor league season was 10 in 476 at bats. Then he starts hitting 30+ at the major league level. NOBODY is beyond suspicion.

Yup, good point. Because we all know players have the exact same amount of power they do at age 20 as they do at 30. And certainly nobody figures out their swings over time either. I'm sold.

[NYMets523]

Gehrig played first base and Ripken a much more demanding shortstop. Gehrig on many occassions also took one at bat and left the game as where Ripken played for years playing all 9 innings.
Ripken started to be taken out of games in 1990. Before then he was playing all 9 innings almost every season.

Maybe Mattingly did. The most homers he ever hit in a minor league season was 10 in 476 at bats. Then he starts hitting 30+ at the major league level. NOBODY is beyond suspicion.
It's foolish to suspect someone was on steroids because their power diminished after an injury. It's happened to players before steroids were used.

[Paulypal]

Ripken started to be taken out of games in 1990. Before then he was playing all 9 innings almost every season.


It's foolish to suspect someone was on steroids because their power diminished after an injury. It's happened to players before steroids were used.

My o my. Where did the power come from?

[Berkman#17]

Technique, better approach, more strength built up over years of lifting.

I mean, it is possible to build strength without steroids.

Donny himself has said that he started to develop more power when he started to learn how to use his bottom hand and when to look to pull and pull for power.

[Paulypal]

Technique, better approach, more strength built up over years of lifting.

I mean, it is possible to build strength without steroids.

Donny himself has said that he started to develop more power when he started to learn how to use his bottom hand and when to look to pull and pull for power.

I dont doubt Mattingly developed the power as he got older and filled out, but that type of production for better or worse will always be questioned. Honestly being that I dont consider steroids cheating...atleast I am not appalled by them I really dont doubt that anyone would use them. I dont look at a guy and say NO WAY he would never use them.

[Berkman#17]

Usually questioned by those who don't stop to think about something else BESIDES steroids. I've heard it time and again. Oh he only hit so many HR's in the minors and then 10 years later....bam! he's at 30. It gets old over time.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Usually questioned by those who don't stop to think about something else BESIDES steroids. I've heard it time and again. Oh he only hit so many HR's in the minors and then 10 years later....bam! he's at 30. It gets old over time.

I'm in agreement with you on this one. I really don't see anything out of the ordinary about Mattingly's low homer total in the minors and then hitting for a higher number in MLB.
He is probably one of many others that did the same.

[Los Bravos]

There seems to be a faction here whose plan is to throw so much mud around that it gets on everybody...past, present and future. I'm really at a loss to understand it.

[Paulypal]

There seems to be a faction here whose plan is to throw so much mud around that it gets on everybody...past, present and future. I'm really at a loss to understand it.

I am not tossing mud, and I really dont think Mattingly juiced up but because we dont know the depth of what happened nobody is above suspicion IMO.

I think my whole point is "cheating" has been a part of baseball from day one. In some era's it just wasnt called that it was called gamesmanship. Just seems to be a huge double standard. Why do we just blow off Perry, or Scotts actions, and crucify Bonds?

[Seattle1]

In the end, all of my faith in baseball is now on the broad shoulders of Albert Pujols. He's my favorite player, and a great human being. If he were to fail a test I would never watch another game- ever. I think he's the one sure-fire power hitter with no ties to performance enhancers at all. It would break my heart if I heard otherwise.

I am suspicious about Pujols.

[Ubiquitous]

There seems to be a faction here whose plan is to throw so much mud around that it gets on everybody...past, present and future. I'm really at a loss to understand it.

At a loss to understand the truth? Drug use was and is common in baseball for at least the last 50 years. Simply focusing on present players while placing guilty players of the past on pedestals is wrong. If Willie Mays used drugs, and he did use drugs, then we shouldn't be putting on some pedestal above all the miscreants of today. He belongs in the mud with them.

[NYMets523]

My o my. Where did the power come from?

You should know since you apparently know everything.

[sturg1dj]

the thing about Ripken is that he played every game and was a quick healer, which is something that happens when you take steroids or HGH.

the majority of bodies will break down during a long season. That is why Gehrig would occasionally play one inning.

[Berkman#17]

3 full seasons in the minors, and Hanley Ramirez never hit more than 8 HR's.

Last season he hit 33, despite playing half his games in a pitchers ballpark.

Ruh-roh.

[Ubiquitous]

Except Hanley was an 18 to 21 year old in the minors and 465 was the most at bats he has ever had in the minors and for all the talk of Florida being a pitchers park they did finish in second place for most homers hit in the NL and in the top half the last few years.

[Paulypal]

You should know since you apparently know everything.

Now thats funny. I really did laugh. Good one junior.

[Berkman#17]

Except Hanley was an 18 to 21 year old in the minors and 465 was the most at bats he has ever had in the minors and for all the talk of Florida being a pitchers park they did finish in second place for most homers hit in the NL and in the top half the last few years.

I think the point of that post went over your head.

And, how many HR's the Marlins hit last year (and previous) doesn't mean that it is NOT a pitchers park. BBRef's PF had Dolphin Stadium at 97 for last year. Plus, the Marlins also had 6 players with at least 111 K's, and not a single player with over 100 RBI's. Manufacturing runs is not their forte. It's swinging for the downs, and whatever happens, happens. They led the NL in K's by close to a hundred. They also hit .254 as a team. It's pretty evident that they aren't out there looking to scratch a couple runs here and there. You could put that team in Yellowstone and it would still have high HR numbers. That's what they try to do. Doesn't take anything away from Dolphin Stadium being a pitchers park.

[Ubiquitous]

I think the point of PF went over your head.

What was the point of your post? If it was sarcasm I didn't pick it up, sorry.

[Berkman#17]

100=neutral
100+=hitters park
100-=pitchers park
97=pitchers park
Pretty easy there.

And yes, it was sarcasm. I did the exact same thing another poster did, except mine was a joke. Anyone following this thread should have been able to pick up on that. I guess I'll have laden up my posts with every smile available since some don't read whole threads anymore. :hissyfit::crazy:rainy::sleepy::ooo::debate::cross fingers:

[cardsfanatic]

Except Hanley was an 18 to 21 year old in the minors and 465 was the most at bats he has ever had in the minors and for all the talk of Florida being a pitchers park they did finish in second place for most homers hit in the NL and in the top half the last few years.

So, then, you'd agree with me that it's obvious the entire Florida Marlins roster is on steroids?

[Ubiquitous]

100=neutral
100+=hitters park
100-=pitchers park
97=pitchers park
Pretty easy there.


Which doesn't necessarily mean:
100+=homers park
100-=non homer park

There are "pitchers parks" that are neutral or even somewhat favorable to homers and there are some "hitters parks" that are not favorable to homers. PF measure runs not events.

[Berkman#17]

You ever looked at the dimensions? And did you ignore their K totals? Or how about watch them play?

Pretty much the entire team swings for it all. They don't really care about small ball. It's all about the 3 run homer. They swing big, they hit it big, and they miss it big.

If that team played 81 games at Cinergy, they would hit 230+ home runs (for the year). There have been plenty of fly balls that have not made it out at Dolphin Stadium that would have been out at smaller parks. That's what makes it a pitchers park. It is not conducive to a high number of runs. Just because they have a team wide Mickey Tettleton approach does not change the fact that it is a pitchers park.

I'll say it again, if they played in Yellowstone they would still hit a ton of home runs. If they played in a fair park, they would hit more than the 208 they hit this year. If they played in Arlington, they would break records. That's what they do.

[Los Bravos]

Drug use was and is common in baseball for at least the last 50 years.Only if you posit a direct equivalency between amphetamines and the class of drugs currently grouped under the rubric of "PEDs." I've addressed my feelings about equating those things in several other threads.

[sturg1dj]

Only if you posit a direct equivalency between amphetamines and the class of drugs currently grouped under the rubric of "PEDs." I've addressed my feelings about equating those things in several other threads.

well if you are looking at legality then amphetamines are worse. they have been illegal longer and carry a stiffer punishment to possession.

[Ubiquitous]

steroids like amphetamines were illegal without prescription in 1965. They were not formally put on the schedule until 1990 but it isn't like you could go down to your local drug store and pick up a bottle of anabolic steroids in 1974.

[Stumanji]

Except Hanley was an 18 to 21 year old in the minors and 465 was the most at bats he has ever had in the minors and for all the talk of Florida being a pitchers park they did finish in second place for most homers hit in the NL and in the top half the last few years.

The Minors vs. Majors comparisons are a little silly to me because the minors see so much turnover. Players are cut, traded, demoted, promoted, positions are changed, batting order is toyed with, swings are tooled and retooled (heck, some players are "suggested" to bat switch while in AA or AAA).

Due to those variables, chances are you're not facing the same pitcher 10-20 times in a season in AA or AAA ball, where that's a possibility in the bigs.

I consider the minor league ball as a "summer camp" of MLB. No one wants to see Jeter decide he wants to be a switch hitter three years into his MLB service. That would just be ridiculous.

As for whether or not Jeter (or anyone) juiced, at this point I'm one of the many that will just say, "I wouldn't be surprised, but I would be disappointed."

[Los Bravos]

well if you are looking at legality then amphetamines are worse.I'm talking about their effect on their users and their ability to play the game. I don't really care about drug laws, which have been a farce for nearly a century.