1940 Best of Baseball election

[jalbright]

This is our fifth election in this project. The entire rules follow. This will be our last election where five players are inducted. After this, we will elect three a "year" through 2010.

This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EST February 13, 2009.

The prior election, and the ballots of the 1939 voters, are in this thread (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86604).

[jalbright]

Rules

1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance, or only the first vote will be counted. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, I request that you PM me (jalbright) to ensure that I am aware of the change(s) or make a separate posting in the voting thread. You must let me know the players involved in the changes at a minimum, but it would also help if you added their rankings (before and after). I cannot agree to be responsible for monitoring the thread for any changes voters might make. If I catch them, fine, but if I don't and am not notified, the official count will be what I have been notified of, not what is on the thread.

7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

9) Each election will run for two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

10) No one is ineligible, nor are players from any league ineligible. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project. Candidates will not lose eligiblity after becoming eligible except by being elected as either a contributor or player.

11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing this standard, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. However, voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however.

14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 3-2-1 or whatever is appropriate system. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, take those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

20) I reserve the right to hold both 19th century and Negro League special elections in 2000 if we don't have a sufficient number in those categories by then. These elections probably will be limited to voters I feel are appropriately versed on the group of players to be considered. I do wish to only use this as a last resort, however, and only to ensure that those groups received what I regard as at least adequate bare minimum representation. I do not plan on sharing with you what I consider to meet those bare minimum standards, but I think that the numbers I am thinking of are well below the number of candidates that well informed observers believe are well qualified candidates from each group.

21) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

22) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread

[jalbright]

There are no new contributors this year. The list of newly eligible players is:


Bigbee , Carson
Oms , Alejandro
Ring , Jimmy
Ruth , Babe
Witt , Whitey

[jalbright]

The 1939 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the 1939 election:


Player………. votes points
Rogan, Joe 15 97
Walsh , Ed 14 87
Brown , M 10 86
Keefe , Tim 13 84
Heilmann, Harry 12 79
Clarkson , J 11 76
Wright , George 6 44
White , Deacon 9 39
Santop , Louis 6 38
Burkett , Jesse 5 34
Barnes , Ross 5 33
Ward , John M. 7 33
Collins , Jimmy 5 28
Hines , Paul 5 28
Sisler , George 5 24
Dahlen , Bill 6 23
Jackson , Joe 3 23
Rusie , Amos 4 17
Sutton , Ezra 2 17
Start , Joe 2 13
Bennett , C 1 12
Galvin , Pud 1 11
Grant , Frank 1 11
Thompson , Sam 2 11
Pennock, Herb 1 10
Radbourn , C 3 10
Clarke , Fred 2 8
Carey , Max 1 4
Caruthers , B 1 3


The 1939 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the 1939 election:


contributor…… votes points
Foster , Rube 19 62
Cartwright , A 10 32
Adams , Doc 10 31
Hulbert , W 10 23
Johnson , Ban 9 20
Creighton , Jim 6 19
Spalding , Al 7 18
Landis , K 1 3
Klem, Bill... 1 1
Reach , A. J. 1 1
Robinson , W 1 1
Taylor , C. I. 1 1

[jalbright]

Members of the Best of Baseball Hall:

Players

Pete Alexander
Cap Anson
Frank Baker
Dan Brouthers
Ty Cobb
Eddie Collins
Roger Connor
Sam Crawford
George Davis
Ed Delahanty
Buck Ewing
Billy Hamilton
Walter Johnson
King Kelly
Nap LaJoie
Pop Lloyd
Christy Mathewson
Kid Nichols
Jim O'Rourke
Eddie Plank
Tris Speaker
Cristobal Torriente
Honus Wagner
Smoky Joe Williams
Cy Young


Contributors

Henry Chadwick
Connie Mack
John McGraw
Harry Wright


These folks are no longer eligible for any elections.

[jalbright]

The complete list of eligible players:


Adams , Babe
Adams , Sparky
Altrock , Nick
Archer , Jimmy
Austin , Jimmy
Bancroft , Dave
Barnes , Ross
Barry , Jack
Battin , Joe
Beaumont , Ginger
Beckley , Jake
Bender , Chief
Bennett , Charlie
Bergen , Marty
Bigbee , Carson
Bodie , Ping
Bond , Tommy
Bradley , Bill
Breitenstein , Ted
Bresnahan , Roger
Brown , Mordecai
Browning , Pete
Burkett , Jesse
Burns , George J.
Bush , Joe
Bush , Donie
Cadore , Leon
Camnitz , Howie
Carey , Max
Carrigan , Bill
Caruthers , Bob
Chance , Frank
Chapman , Ray
Chase , Hal
Chesbro , Jack
Childs , Cupid
Cicotte , Eddie
Clarke , Fred
Clarkson , John
Coakley , Andy
Collins , Jimmy
Collins , Shano
Conroy , Wid
Coombs , Jack
Cooper , Wilbur
Coveleski , Stan
Crandall , Doc
Cravath , Gavvy
Creighton , Jim
Criger , Lou
Cross , Lave
Cruise , Walt
Cummings , Candy
Dahlen , Bill
Daubert , Jake
Davis , Harry
Dinneen , Bill
Doak , Bill
Donlin , Mike
Donovan , Bill
Dooin , Red
Doyle , Jack
Doyle , Larry
Duffy , Hugh
Dunlap , Fred
Ehmke , Howard
Elberfeld , Kid
Ens , Jewel
Evers , Johnny
Faber , Red
Falkenberg , Cy
Fletcher , Art
Flick , Elmer
Foster , Eddie
Foster , Rube
Fraser , Chick
Galvin , Pud
Glasscock , Jack
Gleason , Kid
Gonzalez , Mike
Gore , George
Gowdy , Hank
Grant , Eddie
Grant , Frank
Griffith , Clark
Grimes , Burleigh
Groh , Heinie
Hahn , Noodles
Haines , Jesse
Hargrave , Bubbles
Heilmann , Harry
Herzog , Buck
Hill , Pete
Hinchman , Bill
Hines , Paul
Hooper , Harry
Huggins , Miller
Irwin , Charlie
Jackson , Joe
Jennings , Hughie
Johnson , Home Run
Jones , Charley
Jones , Fielder
Jones , Sam P.
Jordan , Tim
Joss , Addie
Judge , Joe
Keefe , Tim
Keeler , Willie
Kelley , Joe
Kerr , Dickie
Killefer , Bill
Kilroy , Matt
Kling , Johnny
Knabe , Otto
Kremer , Ray
Lange , Bill
Larkin , Henry
Latham , Arlie
Leach , Tommy
Leever , Sam
Lewis , Duffy
Lobert , Hans
Long , Herman
Lowe , Bobby
Luque , Dolf
Lyons , Denny
Magee , Sherry
Maranville , Rabbit
Marquard , Rube
Mathews , Bobby
Mays , Carl
McAleer , Jimmy
McCarthy , Tommy
McCormick , Jim
McGinnity , Joe
McInnis , Stuffy
McLean , Larry
McPhee , Bid
McVey , Cal
Meadows , Lee
Mendez , Jose
Milan , Clyde
Miller , Bing
Miller , Dots
Miller , Hack
Moore , Dobie
Moran , Pat
Mullane , Tony
Murphy , Danny
Murray , Red
Nehf , Art
Oeschger , Joe
O'Leary , Charlie
Oms , Alejandro
O'Neill , Steve
O'Neill , Tip
Orr , Dave
Pabor , Charlie
Paskert , Dode
Pearce , Dickey
Peckinpaugh , Roger
Peitz , Heinie
Pennock , Herb
Perdue , Hub
Phillippe , Deacon
Pike , Lip
Pipp , Wally
Poles , Spotswood
Quinn , Jack
Radbourn , Charlie
Raymond , Bugs
Redding , Dick
Remsen , Jack
Rice , Sam
Richardson , Hardy
Ring , Jimmy
Ritchey , Claude
Rixey , Eppa
Robertson , Dave
Rogan , Bullet Joe
Roush , Edd
Rucker , Nap
Rudolph , Dick
Rusie , Amos
Ruth , Babe
Ryan , Jimmy
Santop , Louis
Schacht , Al
Schaefer , Germany
Schalk , Ray
Schang , Wally
Schreckengost , Ossie
Schulte , Frank
Scott , Everett
Scott , Jack
Severeid , Hank
Seymour , Cy
Sheckard , Jimmy
Shocker , Urban
Sisler , George
Smith , Sherry
Sparks , Tully
Spaulding , Al
Stahl , Jake
Start , Joe
Steinfeldt , Harry
Stovey , Harry
Street , Gabby
Sutton , Ezra
Sweeney , Bill
Tannehill , Jesse
Taylor , Ben
Tenney , Fred
Thomas , Ira
Thompson , Sam
Tiernan , Mike
Tinker , Joe
Toney , Fred
Turner , Terry
Van Haltren , George
Vance , Dazzy
Veach , Bobby
Waddell , Rube
Wallace , Bobby
Walsh , Ed
Wambsganss , Bill
Ward , John M.
Warfield , Frank
Welch , Mickey
Wheat , Zack
White , Deacon
White , Sol
White , Will
Williams , Cy
Williams , Ken
Williamson , Ned
Willis , Vic
Witt , Whitey
Wood , Joe
Wright , George
Yerkes , Steve
Youngs , Ross
Zimmer , Chief


The complete list of eligible contributors:


Abe , Iso
Adams , Doc
Bancroft , Frank
Barrow , Ed
Bulkely , Morgan
Cartwright , Alexander
Chance , Frank
Clarke , Fred
Commiskey , Charlie
Conlan , Charles
Connolly , Tom
Creighton , Jim
Cummings , Candy
Dreyfuss , Barney
Dunn , Jack
Elias , Al Munro
Foster , Rube
Gleason , Kid
Griffith , Clark
Hanlon , Ned
Huggins , Miller
Hulbert , William
Johnson , Ban
Klem , Bill
Landis , Kenesaw
Lardner , Ring
Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
McCarthy , Tommy
Mendez , Jose
Moran , Pat
Mutrie , Jim
Osborn , Frank
Reach , A. J.
Richter , Francis
Robinson , Wilbert
Selee , Frank
Shibe , Ben
Spalding , Al
Taylor , C. I.
Thayer , Ernest
Ward , John M.
Warfield , Frank
White , Sol
Wilson , Horace
Wright , George

[jalbright]

My ballot:

Players
1. Babe Ruth
2. Bullet Joe Rogan
3. John M. Ward
4. Amos Rusie
5. Harry Heilmann
6. Ed Walsh
7. Mordecai Brown
8. Deacon White
9. Tim Keefe
10. John Clarkson
11. Bill Dahlen
12. Jesse Burkett

Contributors
1. Rube Foster
2. William Hulbert
3. Doc Adams
4. Ban Johnson
5. Jim Creighton

[jalbright]

Hope nobody misses the fact Babe Ruth is now eligible. Based on the 1939 results, the top six holdovers from that election should have a spirited battle for the four spots behind the Babe.

[jjpm74]

Players:

1. Babe Ruth
2. Bullet Joe Rogan
3. Ezra Sutton
4. Ross Barnes
5. Joe Start
6. Jimmy Collins
7. Deacon White
8. Paul Hines
9. Bill Dahlen
10. Ed Walsh
11. Edd Roush
12. Charlie Bennett

Contributors:

1. Doc Adams
2. Jim Creighton
3. Rube Foster
4. C. I. Taylor
5. Ban Johnson

Not yet on my ballot, but high in my consideration set:

Roger Bresnahan
Mordecai Brown
Fred Clarke
John Clarkson
George Gore
Heinie Groh
Bid McPhee
Amos Rusie
George Sisler
Ed Walsh
Zach Wheat
George Wright
Cy Young

May eventually vote for:

Jake Beckley
Jesse Burkett
Max Carey
Bob Caruthers
Frank Chance
Cupid Childs
Wilbur Cooper
Stan Coveleski
Lave Cross
Bill Dinneen
Red Faber
Pud Galvin
Jack Glasscock
Burleigh Grimes
Harry Heilmann
Hughie Jennings
Home Run Johnson
Charley Jones
Tim Keefe
Willie Keeler
Joe Kelley
Tommy Leach
Herman Long
Sherry Magee
Rabbit Maranville
Carl Mays
Joe McGinnity
Cal McVey
Jose Mendez
Dobie Moore
Alejandro Oms
Dickey Pearce
Lip Pike
Spotswood Poles
Charlie Radbourn
Dick Redding
Sam Rice
Hardy Richardson
Eppa Rixey
Jimmy Ryan
Wally Schang
Jimmy Scheckard
Urban Shocker
Sam Thompson
Dazzy Vance
Bobby Wallace

[Captain Cold Nose]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Mordecai Brown
3. Ed Walsh
4. John Clarkson
5. Tim Keefe
6. Joe Rogan
7. George Wright
8. John Montgomery Ward
9. Harry Heilmann
10. Louis Santop
11. Deacon White
12. Bill Dahlen

Contributors

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Al Spalding
3. Rube Foster
4. Ban Johnson
5. William Hulbert

[Domenic]

Players
01. Babe Ruth
02. Bullet Joe Rogan
03. Harry Heilmann
04. Amos Rusie
05. John M. Ward
06. Mordecai Brown
07. Ed Walsh
08. Deacon White
09. Edd Roush
10. John Clarkson
11. Bill Dahlen
12. Zach Wheat

Contributors
01. Rube Foster
02. William Hulbert
03. Doc Adams
04. Jim Creighton
05. Ban Johnson

[leecemark]

1. Babe Ruth
2. George Wright
3. Ross Barnes
4. Luis Santop
5. Paul Hines
6. John Clarkson
7. John Ward
8. Joe Rogan
9. Deacon White
10. Amos Rusie
11. Jimmy Collins
12. Harry Heilmann




1. Ban Johnson
2. Alexander Cartwright
3. William Hulbert
4. Rube Foster
5. Al Spaulding (like to see him as a player, but he is much closer this way

[jjpm74]

Just out of curiosity, why does Cy Young have zero support to this point in the project?

[Paul Wendt]

Late last year (copied below), AG2004 argued for Ban Johnson over William Hulbert on grounds that Hulbert became a detriment even to the National League within a few seasons. He refused to admit clubs from Philadelphia and New York to join the league, or perhaps to apply, although as many as five seasons passed after he expelled the Athletics and Mutuals. I don't know the situation in any relevant details, except that there were pro clubs in Philadelphia and New York again during his last two seasons 1880-81.

Al Spalding helped Hulbert get the NL going and build the 1876 Chicago White Stockings. He was earlier a great player, later the Chicago club owner-president, and he led the most important Sporting Goods & Publications company to the top. Here the two Chicago strongmen are a tandem behind the other Chicago strongman and the other Chicago strongman.

Contributors
1. Doc Adams
2. Rube Foster
3. Ban Johnson
4. Al Spalding
5. William Hulbert

Francis Richter is in the six hole.

http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1415759&postcount=57
AG2004, 1939
>>
Hulbert vs. Johnson . . . both established leagues, and helped to save the game. Hulbert managed to end the practice of throwing games (at least for a few decades) and ensured that teams would finish their schedules. Johnson managed to clean up the violence that was marring the game. However, Hulbert's refusal to let teams from New York or Philadelphia into the NL after 1877 came close to killing the league.

I won't argue with expelling the New York and Philadelphia franchises after 1876. Still, there were other teams in those cities who could have been admitted to the NL in 1877 or 1878. Furthermore, keeping the cities out of the league for one season would have been enough to send the necessary message; more than one season without teams in the nation's two most populous cities was simply overkill.

Hulbert's actions in 1876 and 1877 - expelling New York and Philadelphia, expelling Louisville's game-throwers, and ensuring that Cincinnati would finish the 1877 season - were the best things that he could have done for baseball. However, at the start of the 1882 season, he was more of a hindrance to the game's development. With the AA introducing teams into the two big Eastern cities, the NL would have been doomed if Hulbert had remained its president.

That's why I can't rank Hulbert above Johnson.

[leecemark]

Just out of curiosity, why does Cy Young have zero support to this point in the project?

--He received the support he needed when he was elected.

[Paul Wendt]

We elected Cy Young in the first class, easily.


1. Ban Johnson
2. Alexander Cartwright
3. William Hulbert
4. Rube Foster
5. Al Spaulding (like to see him as a player, but he is much closer this way
There are so many shadow Halls of Fame.
I have been thinking that Spalding is in this one as a player, but that's the other one, or the other one, . . .

[AstrosFan]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Tim Keefe
3. John Clarkson
4. Jimmy Collins
5. Bill Dahlen
6. John M. Ward
7. Max Carey
8. Harry Heilmann
9. Bullet Joe Rogan
10. Louis Santop
11. Mordecai Brown
12. Jesse Burkett

Contributors:

1. Rube Foster
2. Alexander Cartwright
3. Ban Johnson
4. William Hulbert
5. Francis Richter

[jalbright]

Just out of curiosity, why does Cy Young have zero support to this point in the project?

Because he's already been elected, in the 1936 election, when he was named on all 21 ballots and finished 6th, ahead of Pete Alexander, Mathewson, Nap LaJoie, and Pop Lloyd, all of whom were also elected that year.

[bambambaseball]

Players:

1. Babe Ruth
2. Charlie Bennett
3. Jimmy Collins
4. Ezra Sutton
5. Ross Barnes
6. Ed Walsh
7. Deacon White
8. George Sisler
9. Mordecai Brown
10. Harry Heilmann
11. John Clarkson
12. Bob Caruthers

Contributers:

1. Creighton, Jim
2. Rube Foster
3. Adams, Doc
4. Bill Klem
5. Francis Richter

[bambambaseball]

Because he's already been elected, in the 1936 election.

You still have him listed as an eligible player and I almost listed him myself. ;)

[jalbright]

You still have him listed as an eligible player and I almost listed him myself. ;)

Not any more. Keeping that list has been one of the things I've had to fiddle with several times, and I hope this time I've got the right idea.:crossfingers::pray: Thanks for the heads up, guys!

[bambambaseball]

Not any more. Keeping that list has been one of the things I've had to fiddle with several times, and I hope this time I've got the right idea.:crossfingers::pray:

One small correction for clarity. You have George Burns listed as eligible. George J or George H or both? The same confusion will show up whenever Dutch Leonard becomes eligible.

[jalbright]

I'll clarify to George J. Burns, as I've never seen any support for George H. Burns. I had planned to clarify for Emil (Dutch) Leonard, who is the only one I've seen support for.

[mwiggins]

Players:

1. Babe Ruth
2. George Sisler
3. Joe Jackson
4. Ed Walsh
5. Bullet Joe Rogan
6. Louis Santop
7. Mordecai Brown
8. Fred Clarke
9. Harry Heilmann
10. George Wright
11. Max Carey
12. Edd Roush

Contributors:

1. Rube Foster
2. Alexander Cartwright
3. William Hulbert
4. Al Spalding
5. Ban Johnson

[Dogdaze]

Players:

1. Babe Ruth
2. Bullet Joe Rogan
3. Mordecai Brown
4. Tim Keefe
5. Louis Santop
6. Ed Walsh
7. George Wright
8. Deacon White
9. John M. Ward
10. John Clarkson
11. Harry Heilmann
12. Jimmy Collins

Contributors:

1. Doc Adams
2. Rube Foster
3. William Hulbert
4. Ban Johnson
5. Al Spalding

[dgarza]

Players
1. Babe Ruth
2. Harry Heilmann
3. Tim Keefe
4. John Clarkson
5. Sam Thompson
6. Jesse Burkett
7. Joe Jackson
8. Ross Barnes
9. George Sisler
10. Amos Rusie
11. Al Spalding
12. Harry Stovey

Contributors
1. Al Spalding
2. Kenesaw Landis
3. Rube Foster
4. Alexander Cartwright
5. Charles Conlon

[henrich]

contributors
1. A. Cartwright
2. Landis
3. Spalding
4. Foster R.
5. Creighton

Players.
1. Babe Ruth
2. Mordecai Brown
3. Tim Keefe
4. Ed Walsh
5. Harry Heilmann
6. Pud Galvin
7. Jesse Burkett
8. Sam Thompson
9. Herb Pennock
10. Ross Barnes
11. Fred Clarke
12. Deacon White

[jalbright]

We're over the limit for a quorum on both elections at this point.

[BlueBlood]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Bullet Joe Rogan
3. Harry Heilmann
4. Tim Keefe
5. Mordecai Brown
6. John Clarkson
7. Ed Walsh
8. Amos Rusie
9. Bill Dahlen
10. George Wright
11. Deacon White
12. Charlie Bennett

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Rube Foster
3. Jim Creighton
4. William Hulbert
5. Doc Adams

[Brad Harris]

Players
1. Babe Ruth
2. Bullet Joe Rogan
3. Deacon White
4. Louis Santop
5. Ed Walsh
6. Paul Hines
7. John Clarkson
8. Harry Heilmann
9. Tim Keefe
10. George Wright
11. Jesse Burkett
12. Bill Dahlen

Contributors
1. Doc Adams
2. Ban Johnson
3. William Hulbert
4. Rube Foster
5. Ed Barrow

[J W]

Players' Ballot
1. Babe Ruth
2. Joe Jackson
3. Frank Grant
4. Mordecai Brown
5. Ed Walsh
6. Jesse Burkett
7. Louis Santop
8. Tim Keefe
9. John Clarkson
10. Bullet Joe Rogan
11. George Sisler
12. Bill Dahlen

Contributors' Ballot
1. William Hulbert
2. Rube Foster
3. Doc Adams
4. Alexander Cartwright
5. Fred Clarke

[Freakshow]

1. Babe Ruth
2. George Wright
3. John Clarkson
4. Harry Heilmann
5. Louis Santop
6. Joe Rogan
7. Ed Walsh
8. Bill Dahlen
9. Deacon White
10. Paul Hines
11. Jesse Burkett
12. Amos Rusie

[PVNICK]

1. Babe Ruth
2. John Clarkson
3. Tim Keefe
4. George Davis
5. Harry Heilmann
6. Hoss Radbourne
7. Monte Ward
8. Mordecai Brown
9. Bob Caruthers
10. George Wright
11. Jimmy Collins
12. Joe Rogan

1. Rube Foster
2. Jim Creghton
3. Al Spalding
4. AJ Reach
5. William Hulbert

[Freakshow]

1. Babe Ruth
2. John Clarkson
3. Tim Keefe
4. George Davis

Davis was elected.

[PVNICK]

My oversight on Davis. Everybody moves up one and Ed Walsh is 12 so it is now:

1. Babe Ruth
2. John Clarkson
3. Tim Keefe
4. Harry Heilmann
5. Hoss Radbourne
6. Monte Ward
7. Mordecai Brown
8. Bob Caruthers
9. George Wright
10. Jimmy Collins
11. Joe Rogan
12. Ed Walsh

[jalbright]

We've got 16 player ballots and 16 contributor ballots in, so we've gotten the vast majority of our usual participants to vote already. There's still a tight race among the six holdover leaders from last time for the four spots behind Ruth, so the final ballots will certainly have a significant impact.

Right now, I'd like to focus on the new class of players for 1941--and I'm not ignoring the contributors, because I don't have any new candidates in that category for 1941. The 1941 class has one titan who IMHO should easily make it in his first year, namely Rogers Hornsby, and then a bunch of guys who don't deserve much support in the player category (Bucky Harris and Jimmy Dykes may well merit some support in the contributor category, but there their managing counts, too): Ray Blades, Joe Boley, Jimmy Dykes, Bucky Harris, Bill McGowan, Bob Meusel, Johnny Mostil, Bob O'Farrell, Cy Perkins, Muddy Ruel, Bill Sherdel, Rube Walberg and Tom Zachary.

One other question I'll throw out there is, I've got a list of what I call "plausible candidates", which includes everyone who's in the HOF, in the BTF Hall of Merit, who received multiple votes in a BBF HOF election, or got at least 10% of the vote in a BBWAA vote, or a vote in this project. Until somebody votes for a candidate off that list, that's the group I use for my spreadsheet to do the point counts for each election. Would you folks like for me to include this list to help you focus on the suitable candidates, rather than the much larger group that qualified to be listed as eligible candidates? If we went through baseball history instead of only to 1940, this list might run to 400 names, versus the 240 or so we will elect and the 1100 or so eligibles.

[jalbright]

We're largely following last election's form if one removed the elected candidates from 1939 and posited that Babe Ruth would take the top spot in 1940. That means we have six guys in a tight struggle for four spots on the player side, and Rube Foster leading comfortably in the Contributor election. In 1941, we probably will elect Rogers Hornsby and the two of the six that don't make it this year, as 1941 is the first of our 70 elections with 3 candidates elected per year. I'd even guess Oscar Charleston as one of the three in 1942, but I'll stop the crystal ball gazing there.

On the Contributor side, it looks like there's going to be a three way battle between Doc Adams, William Hulbert and Alex Cartwright for the 1941 spot. Hulbert was an early power in the game, and, as has been noted in this project, cleaned up a nasty gambling scandal. He may well have reached the point of being an impediment to the game, but, if so, fortunately for baseball if not for Hulbert, he died at that point despite being fairly young. He's certainly worthy. Doc Adams deserves the title of "Father of Baseball" more than Alex Cartwright does, the HOF plaque for Cartwright notwithstanding. Adams was the head of the Knickerbocker club, Cartwright a lesser officer. Adams certainly at least helped changed the rule that a ball had to be caught on the fly to be an out. It's hard to find support for the claims made for Cartwright which don't rely on the book written by his grandson--which frankly finds little support in any other records of the time or the participants of that time. IMHO, Adams is definitely a superior candidate to Cartwright. I question Cartwright's worthiness, period, but he's certainly the third best of this group of three.

[jalbright]

Those who voted in last election but yet to vote this time:

Paul Wendt (already voted in Contributor side but not the player side)
AG2004
Babe is the best
StLCards2

[jalbright]

On another note, I've been pleased so far with our ability to recognize the greats from the Negro Leagues and the 19th century. Using my crystal ball estimates from two posts above, we should soon have five Negro League players inducted (Charleston and Rogan added to Lloyd, Torriente and Joe Williams among the players, Rube Foster soon as a contributor, with many of the better candidates from those leagues yet to be eligible).

It's hard to figure out whether George Davis and Cy Young belong in the 19th century group or not, as their careers were pretty well centered on 1900. Besides them, though, we'll likely soon have John Clarkson and Tim Keefee to add to Anson, Brouthers, Connor, Delahanty, Ewing, Hamilton, King Kelly, Nichols and O'Rourke. It's a promising start, and one I hope we continue so that I never have to exercise the right to call for "Veteran's Committees" for either group.

[jalbright]

bumping the thread to keep it on the first page.

[Paul Wendt]

1 Babe Ruth
2 George Wright
3 Deacon White
4 Bill Dahlen
5 Paul Hines
6 Bullet Rogan
7 Fred Clarke
8 Jesse Burkett
9 J.M. Ward
10 Ross Barnes
11 Louis Santop
12 Harry Heilmann

[Sockeye]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Harry Heilmann
3. Tim Keefe
4. Jesse Burkett
5. John Clarkson
6. Joe Jackson
7. Fred Clarke
8. Zack Wheat
9. Sherry Magee
10. Willie Keeler
11. Sam Thompson
12. Elmer Flick

1. Frank Chance
2. Candy Cummings
3. Kid Gleason
4. Ned Hanlon
5. Al Spalding

[Brad Harris]

1. Frank Chance
2. Candy Cummings
3. Kid Gleason
4. Ned Hanlon
5. Al Spalding

How are Frank Chance or Kid Gleason more significant contributors than the first Commissioner, the guy most responsible for baseball's rules, the guy who founded the Negro Leagues, or the founders of the National and American Leagues? Even assuming these two guys were the best player-managers eligible (which they're not), that's....well, I'm curious about your logic.

[AG2004]

Late last year (copied below), AG2004 argued for Ban Johnson over William Hulbert on grounds that Hulbert became a detriment even to the National League within a few seasons. He refused to admit clubs from Philadelphia and New York to join the league, or perhaps to apply, although as many as five seasons passed after he expelled the Athletics and Mutuals. I don't know the situation in any relevant details, except that there were pro clubs in Philadelphia and New York again during his last two seasons 1880-81.

There may have been, but they weren't playing in the National League. Actually, the New York Metropolitans were founded in 1880; they joined the AA in 1883. The team could have joined the AA in 1882, but didn't want to give up the money it made from exhibition games against NL clubs.

Here's my ballot for 1940.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Joe Rogan
3. Jesse Burkett
4. Paul Hines
5. John Clarkson
6. Joe Start
7. Ed Walsh
8. Hoss Radbourn
9. Bill Dahlen
10. George Wright
11. Three Finger Brown
12. Louis Santop

I'm not sure why Keefe is rated more highly than Radbourn. [OOC - The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract has a typo in the pitchers' section for Radbourn's win share line. It says 346-89,59,49-249, but the back of the book indicates that it should be 389-89-59,49-268. Radbourn did have 346 win shares in the 1880s. Compare with Keefe's 413-159-236.]

Keefe has an advantage in career ERA+, but Radbourn makes some of that up in career OPS+. Furthermore, two of Keefe's peak years came in the AA while it was still getting established (1883-84), so Keefe's record should be taken with a grain of salt.

Then why do I rate Clarkson ahead of Radbourn? Well, the difference between the two in peak comes down to the latter's 1884 season, when Radbourn had to carry the entire load for Providence at the end of the season. Furthermore, Clarkson had eight seasons with 30+ win shares, which puts him in first place for pitchers of that era. More impressively, those eight seasons were consecutive, meaning that Clarkson was the most consistently good pitcher of his time. (Galvin had seven such seasons, and would have had eight if we consider his performance in the 1878 IA, but they weren't consecutive.)

Contributors:
1) Rube Foster
2) Doc Adams
3) Al Spalding
4) Ban Johnson
5) Dickey Pearce

Creighton has been doing well in the voting, and, as he changed pitching, deservedly so. It's the single biggest impact made by a player's innovation. However, Pearce did change the defensive spectrum and introduced many aspects of team play involving the shortstop. That's a huge impact; with the exception of Ruth and the home run, I can't think of any other impact on that level. Pearce also invented bunting, captained the game's first dynasty, and also had a long career. I think the overall package moves him a little ahead of Creighton, but it's close.

[jalbright]

Election results:

We had 19 people vote in the player election, and we elected Babe Ruth, Bullet Joe Rogan, Harry Heilmann, John Clarkson, and Ed Walsh. Complete results are below:


Player…………….. votes pts
Ruth, Babe 19 228
Rogan, Joe 15 120
Heilmann, Harry 16 101
Clarkson, J 15 100
Walsh , Ed 14 93
Keefe , Tim 11 90
Brown , M 12 82
Wright , George 10 61
White , Deacon 12 60
Santop , Louis 10 56
Ward , John M. 8 51
Burkett , Jesse 10 50
Dahlen , Bill 11 41
Hines , Paul 6 40
Barnes , Ross 6 38
Jackson , Joe 4 34
Collins , Jimmy 6 32
Rusie , Amos 6 30
Sisler , George 4 22
Clarke , Fred 4 19
Sutton , Ezra 2 19
Start , Joe 2 15
Thompson , Sam 3 15
Bennett , C 3 13
Radbourn , C 2 13
Grant , Frank 1 10
Carey , Max 2 8
Galvin , Pud 1 7
Roush , Edd 3 7
Caruthers , B 2 6
Wheat , Zack 2 6
Magee , Sherry 1 4
Pennock, Herb 1 4
Keeler , Willie 1 3
Spalding , Al 1 2
Flick , Elmer 1 1
Stovey , Harry 1 1


We had 18 voters in the contributor election, and we elected Rube Foster. Complete results follow:


Contributor………. votes pts
Foster , Rube 17 65
Adams , Doc 10 37
Hulbert , W 12 32
Cartwright , Al 8 31
Johnson , Ban 11 26
Spalding , Al 10 25
Creighton , Jim 7 20
Landis , K 2 8
Chance , Frank 1 5
Cummings , C 1 4
Gleason, Kid 1 3
Hanlon , Ned 1 2
Klem, Bill... 1 2
Reach , A. J. 1 2
Richter , F 2 2
Taylor , C. I. 1 2
Barrow , Ed 1 1
Clarke , Fred 1 1
Conlan , C 1 1
Pearce, Dickey 1 1

[jalbright]

I'll leave this thread in the HOF regular forum until Sunday night, then move it to the subforum.