Joe Torre

[The Monument]

So, what do all you Torre admirers think of " Saint Joe" now that he's written a tell-all book, The Yankee Years? He knocked himself down a few notches in my book, and we'll never see #6 hanging in Monument Park.Even Billy Martin said " Yankees don't throw stones". He didn't take his own advice, but that's another story {and one of the reasons that #1 shouldn't be retired}.

[Domenic]

Joe Torre was a mediocre manager, and I think the Yankees would be in a better position now had he been jettisoned in 2003 or so. Torre's mishandling of the bullpen led to countless blow-ups and meltdowns, and I am unable to fathom why a team would give him a job - he's currently making the same mistakes in Los Angeles, and Broxton, Billingsley, and Kershaw will feel his wrath.

On topic, I don't really care. Torre has come across as more and more petty as he's aged, and this doesn't surprise me in the least. I hope this book makes him enough money to cover the "insulting offer" the Yankees gave him after 2007 - after all, it would've only made him the highest-paid manager in the MLB.

[Babe-Rod"3"]

Am I the only one who thinks that the "real" Yankee manager during the championship years was Zimmer?

[Domenic]

I will forever remember Joe Torre as the man who:

Brought the infield in against Luis Gonzalez in 2001.

Brought Jeff Weaver in in extra innings of game 4 in the 2003 World Series, while an available Mariano Rivera sat in the bullpen.

Didn't notice when the Orioles batted out of order in 2003.

Played favorites with veterans, never giving younger players a real chance.

Called on Tom Gordon in Game 5 of the 2004 ALCS with a 2-run lead, with Mariano Rivera available and sitting in the bullpen.

Has a record of 978-1081, two playoff appearances, zero World Series appearances, zero pennants, and ten sub-.500 seasons with teams not named the "New York Yankees."

[Paulypal]

I am glad I am not alone on Torre on this subject. I am sure Torre will blame Verducci (who co-wrote with Torre) for being misquoted, but Torre left a lot to be desired as a manager.

As mentioned he blew his bullpen out. Poor Scott Proctor..he goes to LA only to have Torre follow him.

One of Torres big errors in my opinion cost them the 2004 playoffs when they collapsed against the Sox, and should have cost him his job. In game 5 I believe Sheffield leads off with a walk against Wakefield and Varitek catching. Varitek could barely catch anything Wakefield was throwing never mind make a throw to second base. He never let Sheffield steal second. Wake followed with a past ball or two in that inning and Sheff never scored because Torre didnt have him running. If its obvious to me at home that Varitek had no clue how to catch Wakefield what was Torre doing? What was Sheff doing? They score that run the series is over.

When asked about it Torre said "well Sheffield has a green light to go". That told me everything I needed to know about Torre as a manager. I never thought Torre was a good manager, he just had exceptional talent and handled personalities, but I always thought he was a good person. A stand up guy. Now I have to rethink that also.

[NJYankeeFan]

I will forever remember Joe Torre as the man who:

Brought the infield in against Luis Gonzalez in 2001.

Brought Jeff Weaver in in extra innings of game 4 in the 2003 World Series, while an available Mariano Rivera sat in the bullpen.

Didn't notice when the Orioles batted out of order in 2003.

Played favorites with veterans, never giving younger players a real chance.

Called on Tom Gordon in Game 5 of the 2004 ALCS with a 2-run lead, with Mariano Rivera available and sitting in the bullpen.

Has a record of 978-1081, two playoff appearances, zero World Series appearances, zero pennants, and ten sub-.500 seasons with teams not named the "New York Yankees."

Very good summary. Bringing the infield in in that game was just the end of any good feelings I could have for him. I mean when you manage the game so poorly that even Tim McCarver recognizes it?

It's nice to find an intelligent group of Yankee fans.

[clipper]

I am going to read it from the library but he can forget retiring number 6.

From what I read - Really Stupid on his part and I don't want to hear - "I didn't mean it that way". Hope we meet in WS.

Let's give the batboy #6 (or A Rod I am superstitous)

Clipper

[PhenomJoba]

Screw you Torre.

[Hysteria]

Oh common Brian Cashman should have been fired years ago and many of the Yankee players were and some still are prima donnas. Yeah i agree you could have put anyone in there in 98 and some of those other years. After 2001 torre seemed different. No fire in the man at all and it didnt work with the people he had. In the 90's it did.

[Paulypal]

My question is why? What did he have to gain by writing a book? Was he that bitter about what the Yanks did?

He just burned a bridge to his only success as a manager. I am sure after 12 years negative and positive things happened behind the scenes, and I am sure they are all equally covered in the book....Afterall it is 477 pages. I just cant get past why. He doesnt need the money, and he had to know this was going to get everyone in NY PO'd.

Some of ARods teammates didnt like him...no kidding,,,and so what. If it happens in the clubhouse leave it there.

After 12 years he can dish dirt on everyone I am sure, but from what we are hearing so far...he picked his spots as far as who he was going to bury.

I dont know what he wrote word for word obviously but doing what he did doesnt sound too good.

[Silver Blaze]

My If it happens in the clubhouse leave it there.




We all love to know what goes on in the clubhouse. Not saying Torre should have written a book, but what about Last Night of the Yankee Dynasty? It's human nature to want someone to dish the dirt on the story behind the scenes, especially with a fabled dynasty like the Yankees.

[Domenic]

Oh common Brian Cashman should have been fired years ago and many of the Yankee players were and some still are prima donnas. Yeah i agree you could have put anyone in there in 98 and some of those other years. After 2001 torre seemed different. No fire in the man at all and it didnt work with the people he had. In the 90's it did.

Cashman has made a great many smart moves in his time with the Yankees. He built the farm into a top-five system and made some good deals along the way. The post-Steinbrenner handshake Yankees are still a new team, and Cashman deserves more of a shot.

[TonyStarks]

Ahh...the real Joe Torre has stood up.

But wait...some of you people thought his number should be retired? Are you crazy?
What did he do to even get that type of praise? He ran a team on Auto-Pilot and he took Buck Showalters team to the Playoff/World Series initially. Then the brains behind the operation was Zimmer.

Joe Torre was more like Junior Soprano and Popeye was Tony Soprano.

[KCGHOST]

This was an extreme error in judgment by Torre. He had nothing to gain by keeping mouth shut and everything to lose. He will make a few dollars, but alienate a legion of Yankee fans as well as some NY BBWAA members.

The irony on this is that Joe Torre was the same manager in the 2000's as he was in the 1990's. He simply had better horses.

[Extra Innings]

They always seems to release these 'tell all' dramatic books right before the season begins.

[ipitch]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/01/25/verducci.qa/index.html?eref=T1


SI.com: Two New York newspapers are reporting that Joe Torre rips Alex Rodriguez and George Steinbrenner in the book, and that Brian Cashman was not as supportive of Torre returning as Yankees manager after the 2007 season as was previously believed. What can you tell us about these reports?

Verducci: I think it's important to understand context here. The book is not a first-person book by Joe Torre, it's a third-person narrative based on 12 years of knowing the Yankees and it's about the changes in the game in that period. Seems to me the New York Post assigned this third-person book entirely to Joe Torre and that's not the case. In fact, if people saw that Post story they probably noticed there are no quotes from Joe Torre in it. Joe Torre does not rip anybody in the book. The book really needs to be read in context.


Smart people will judge the book upon actually reading it and not reading preliminary reports prior to its publication. Once you understand the context of the book you understand the information. It's not a tell-all book. Anybody who reads it will understand that.

[Extra Innings]

Verducci: I think it's important to understand context here. The book is not a first-person book by Joe Torre, it's a third-person narrative based on 12 years of knowing the Yankees and it's about the changes in the game in that period. Seems to me the New York Post assigned this third-person book entirely to Joe Torre and that's not the case. In fact, if people saw that Post story they probably noticed there are no quotes from Joe Torre in it. Joe Torre does not rip anybody in the book. The book really needs to be read in context.

Well that puts a different spin on things.

[PVNICK]

Am I the only one who thinks that the "real" Yankee manager during the championship years was Zimmer?

I don't think any Red Sox fan of the late 70s would think so.

[PVNICK]

You mean you're supposed to read a book before commenting, rather than jumping to conclusions based upon "exerpts" from tabloids looking to sell papers and generate interest. What a novel concept.

[Domenic]

I read a thirty-three page excerpt that was forwarded to the office that I work in, and I must say that he does come across as a bit petty. I wouldn't go so far as to say that he's revealing things that should be left unsaid, or that he's inventing stories for his own benefit... but it seems like something that shouldn't have been put to paper.

[KCGHOST]

You mean you're supposed to read a book before commenting, rather than jumping to conclusions based upon "exerpts" from tabloids looking to sell papers and generate interest.

ESPN sure doesn't think so. They kept running a trailer that basically said Torre threw Cashman and Arod under the bus.

[rockin500]

ESPN sure doesn't think so. They kept running a trailer that basically said Torre threw Cashman and Arod under the bus.
of course, they are ESPN. what else do you expect from them?

[johnnypapa]

ESPN sure doesn't think so. They kept running a trailer that basically said Torre threw Cashman and Arod under the bus.


Oh well...that settles it. I mean...espn never has any agendas or never will spin a story.


I'll stick with Tom Verducci's version. An insider's view of the greatest sports dynasty of modern times...the NY Yankees.

[Evangelion]

Why not wait until you're retired to release such a book? Why would Torre agreed to this book release while he's an active manager?

[Curly SB]

Ever since Chico wrote "Bad Things About the Mets" and Jim Bouton wrote "Ball Four" you knew that this book would be coming.

[Westlake]

How dare Joe Torre bring the infield in with less than two outs and the winning run on third.

[jnakamura]

You mean you're supposed to read a book before commenting, rather than jumping to conclusions based upon "exerpts" from tabloids looking to sell papers and generate interest. What a novel concept.

Some of this group reminds me of the Ox Bow Incident. Who needs a trial when you have a rope and a tree. :rolleyes:

[Paulypal]

Some of this group reminds me of the Ox Bow Incident. Who needs a trial when you have a rope and a tree. :rolleyes:

As I said earlier I am sure there are a ton of things that are positive in the book, but my question still stands.....Why? Why have anything to do with it.

Verducci said that a lot of what is being reported by the media wasnt quoted from Torre. Torre attached his name to something that potentially can destroy his legacy here in NY even if he didnt write it himself. Why?

Telling a story of why ARod was called AFreud is just not necessary. He is also still a manager. Could that hurt his current situation with his players?

[Hysteria]

Cashman has made a great many smart moves in his time with the Yankees. He built the farm into a top-five system and made some good deals along the way. The post-Steinbrenner handshake Yankees are still a new team, and Cashman deserves more of a shot.

Yes hes made great moves like picking up kevin brown, jared wright,Carl Pavano, Kyle Farnsworth, Kei Igawa, Giambi, Jose Contreras stuff like that.

The farm system has been rebuilt but lets see if they don't trade them away.

[Domenic]

Yes hes made great moves like picking up kevin brown, jared wright,Carl Pavano, Kyle Farnsworth, Kei Igawa, Giambi, Jose Contreras stuff like that.

The farm system has been rebuilt but lets see if they don't trade them away.

Those moves came when Steinbrenner was still getting whatever he wanted, with the exception of Igawa (which was a bad play). In the last two or three years, Cashman has been in control - and the team looks to be better for it.

[LouGehrig]

What did the book reveal that is NOT true?

[ipitch]

Telling a story of why ARod was called AFreud is just not necessary.

Is that a Freudian slip?

[Paulypal]

Is that a Freudian slip?

Excellent. I didnt catch that...I guess it is a Freudian slip.

[Paulypal]

What did the book reveal that is NOT true?

Truth is not the issue. The issue is why say anything? There a plenty of things people can say that will bury someone else, but what for.

Torre was always talking about "family". Your family keeps their yap shut....or atleast should.

[LouGehrig]

Truth is not the issue.

Truth is ALWAYS the issue.

[Paulypal]

Truth is ALWAYS the issue.

Because something is true it doesnt have to be made public. What if Jeter was gay...should Torre put that in his book because its true?

[YankeeDean]

All good points. My main question is why now Joe, when you are still managing and your players (Manny?) will wonder what your next book will say? As for his managing record, he was very good manager for THAT team in THAT situation (New York, the Steinbrenners, etc.) and the playoff bombs of recent years were mainly due to bad starting pitching.

Some of his moves worked, some did not. Earlier in 2001 world series, infield in worked. I also disagree with the game seven move, but who knows. The A-rod comments don't seem to be vicious --they reflect the opinion of some (maybe jealous) teamates and his early (now gone) Jeter anxiety. They are legitimate but wrong: A-Rod has had good and bad moments in the clutch, like all sluggers, and when your starting pichers can barely pitch 5 innings (or have era's over 5) those 2 and 3-run homers in the first three innings were very important. There where 8 other guys in the lineup for later on and they just could not manufacture runs. We'll see how far they go this year with Texeira and a real pitching staff.

Bottom line: if Joe had pulled the team off the field with Joba on the mound in 2007, the Yankees would have reached at least the ALCS and Joe would have been back for the final year at Yankee Stadium. He admits it was his biggest mistake. Nuf said.

[LouGehrig]

Because something is true it doesnt have to be made public. What if Jeter was gay...should Torre put that in his book because its true?

It is an individual's choice. If what was written was true, the individual cannot be faulted. Individuals have different values. The truth is the universal protector, as the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights used to be the protector.

What difference does it make what an individual's sexual preferences are?

[mynameisjack1991]

Yes hes made great moves like picking up kevin brown, jared wright,Carl Pavano, Kyle Farnsworth, Kei Igawa, Giambi, Jose Contreras stuff like that.

The farm system has been rebuilt but lets see if they don't trade them away.

At the time these were good moves. Brown was a perrenial cy young candidate, Giambi was two years removed from an mvp award, Contreras was putting up stats in cuba that were out of this world, same with igawa but in japan. Pavano just came off a 19 win season Farnsworth was the best available set up man, which we needed badly at the time. i have no excuses for wright that was a mess up. But to say at the time these moves were made they were mad moves is wrong. Yes they turned out to be terrible moves. but you can't fault cashman for making them

[yankeeclipper21]

Those moves came when Steinbrenner was still getting whatever he wanted, with the exception of Igawa (which was a bad play). In the last two or three years, Cashman has been in control - and the team looks to be better for it.

actually Jaret Wright was a Cashman move and I think anyone has to fault Cashman for that move, but yes Steinbrenner was behind a majority of transaction decisions in the post 2001 era which explains a lot.

[yankeeclipper21]

All good points. My main question is why now Joe, when you are still managing and your players (Manny?) will wonder what your next book will say? As for his managing record, he was very good manager for THAT team in THAT situation (New York, the Steinbrenners, etc.) and the playoff bombs of recent years were mainly due to bad starting pitching.

Some of his moves worked, some did not. Earlier in 2001 world series, infield in worked. I also disagree with the game seven move, but who knows. The A-rod comments don't seem to be vicious --they reflect the opinion of some (maybe jealous) teamates and his early (now gone) Jeter anxiety. They are legitimate but wrong: A-Rod has had good and bad moments in the clutch, like all sluggers, and when your starting pichers can barely pitch 5 innings (or have era's over 5) those 2 and 3-run homers in the first three innings were very important. There where 8 other guys in the lineup for later on and they just could not manufacture runs. We'll see how far they go this year with Texeira and a real pitching staff.

Bottom line: if Joe had pulled the team off the field with Joba on the mound in 2007, the Yankees would have reached at least the ALCS and Joe would have been back for the final year at Yankee Stadium. He admits it was his biggest mistake. Nuf said.


I question it too. I just don't understand. If you have a grudge against the organization, that's one thing, but why bash your former players?

However, pitching has been a major downfall in recent playoffs, but you also hit the nail on the head when you say how the lineup could not manufacture runs and that I believe was just as much of a problem if not even MORE of a problem in the post season since 2003. It's something Joe Torre talked about in the book about how the team transitioned from a gritty team to a slugger's paradise and how he was against the moves. The organization has to get a lot of the blame for that.

[Paulypal]

It is an individual's choice. If what was written was true, the individual cannot be faulted. Individuals have different values. The truth is the universal protector, as the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights used to be the protector.

What difference does it make what an individual's sexual preferences are?

So no matter what if something is true its ok to be made public...is that what your saying?

I used the sexual preference thing as an example....I am sure you know that.

[LouGehrig]

I do.

And yes, if something is true, the individual involved in the events has the right to make it public. She must be willing to face the consequences, if any, but the right is unalienable.

[Paulypal]

I do.

And yes, if something is true, the individual involved in the events has the right to make it public. She must be willing to face the consequences, if any, but the right is unalienable.

Wow...ok. Glad we didnt grow up together. LOL

[LouGehrig]

Wow...ok. Glad we didnt grow up together. LOL

Yes, but most of the time, I am NOT willing to face the consequences, which is why my favorite t-shirt states:

DON'T SNITCH.

What is important is having the RIGHT of choice.

[johnnypapa]

You suppose the Dodger players are wondering what's gonna be in Torre's Dodger Years book?

[Paulypal]

You suppose the Dodger players are wondering what's gonna be in Torre's Dodger Years book?

I cant imagine they wouldnt be nervous. I would be. You dont even have to be a bad guy, sometimes in life stuff just happens for whatever reason. Imagine having it told by the the supposed leader of the team - to make a book more interesting?

I dont care if its not a tell all book Torre is just a bitter bitter man with an ax to grind.

[johnnypapa]

I cant imagine they wouldnt be nervous. I would be. You dont even have to be a bad guy, sometimes in life stuff just happens for whatever reason. Imagine having it told by the the supposed leader of the team - to make a book more interesting?

I dont care if its not a tell all book Torre is just a bitter bitter man with an ax to grind for writing it.


Sure looks that way. Obviously I haven't read the book either but pieces of it have come out. MLB Hot Stove discussed it last night and they replayed an interview that Torre did on WFAN when Canseco's book came out. Don't recall the whole thing but Torre said in that interview something like...if Canseco wrote the book to help the sport...ok...but if he wrote it for money than it was wrong. Well...why did Torre write his book? Torre came off looking hypocritical. The only guy on the Hot Stove panel that did not seem to have a problem with it was the host and he wasn't a player. Barry Larkin, Al Leiter and Joe Magrane were questioning Torre's motive. Larkin especially seemed pissed about it.

[Domenic]

If I were a player on the Dodgers I am one-hundred percent sure that I would never confide anything in Joe Torre. After the Rodriguez blunder in 2006 (relaying a private conversation between himself and Rodriguez to Verducci and SI), I would've had my doubts - this book, however meaningless or out of context the stories may be, would cement that feeling.

[Paulypal]

Torre potentially really screwed himself out of the HOF. Winning four WS he is a possible candidate with no doubt. Question is, depending on how the Yankee organization hanldles it.... He may not be able to go into the HOF as a Yankee, and if he is not a Yankee there is not a HOF for him. Quite the quandry.

[Biggtone23]

Pauly that might be the dumbest thing I've ever read on here. You really think that the Veterans Committe wont vote Torre for the Hall of Fame because he mad the Yankees mad? It's not like the Yankees can tell the voters not to count what he did as manager of the Yankees. Not to mention the fact that Yankees have no control over who gets to be elected as a Yankee or any other team, the Hall of Fame itself makes that decision.

In the end it will all blow over as it always does ask Jim Bouton, Sparky Lyle and Graig Nettles who all wrote tell all books about the Yankees and are regulars at old timers days.

[ipitch]

Here are some of the highlights from the book.
http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/torre-on-jeter-a-rod-beltran-pavano-brown-and-more/

I hardly ever buy books, but I might have to get this one!

[Paulypal]

Pauly that might be the dumbest thing I've ever read on here. You really think that the Veterans Committe wont vote Torre for the Hall of Fame because he mad the Yankees mad? It's not like the Yankees can tell the voters not to count what he did as manager of the Yankees. Not to mention the fact that Yankees have no control over who gets to be elected as a Yankee or any other team, the Hall of Fame itself makes that decision.

In the end it will all blow over as it always does ask Jim Bouton, Sparky Lyle and Graig Nettles who all wrote tell all books about the Yankees and are regulars at old timers days.

Just glad I topped a list. Excellent.

You obviously didnt get what I was trying to say. If Torre goes into he HOF he is going in as a Yankee. He cant go in as Cardinal, etc etc. Right? With me so far? Good..... assuming you nodded yes.

What if Torre just made that impossible? He just bashed the only organization that he has any right to be elected as a member of. I didnt say it was a lock, I said he POTENTIALLY screwed himself. Just thinking or in this case typing out loud.

Bouton, Nettles, or Lyle were not in the managerial position that Torre was in. Many players have written books, but how many managers were stupid enough to write one...while they were active. You say its going to blow over...maybe ..maybe not. Have Torre show up for anything at the Stadium and lets see the reaction. Lyle could have had a book signing in Yankee stadium for the Bronx Zoo and would have been cheered.

Right now just trying to picturing Torre getting elected into the HOF with a Yankee cap on, and I just dont see it.

If this post tops another list please feel free.

[Paulypal]

Here are some of the highlights from the book.
http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/torre-on-jeter-a-rod-beltran-pavano-brown-and-more/

I hardly ever buy books, but I might have to get this one!

By the way Torre made a very classy remark about George's lucidity with the Godfather analogy. Thanks for the opportunity, and the 50 million in salary.

[Biggtone23]

Well I dont see any reason he cant go in as a Cardinal, Im unaware of any falling out that happened when he was fired back in 1995. As for what hat he wears he can wear the same one as fellow Yankees Catfish Hunter and Yogi Berra: a blank cap.

[RationalNYYfan]

This new disparagement clause is one of the most embarrassing things I've seen from the Yankees in a long time. It's like they are the spoiled five year old that gets grumpy when people disagree with him

[Paulypal]

Well I dont see any reason he cant go in as a Cardinal, Im unaware of any falling out that happened when he was fired back in 1995. As for what hat he wears he can wear the same one as fellow Yankees Catfish Hunter and Yogi Berra: a blank cap.

Go in as a Cardinal....that is the second dumbest thing I ever read on here. Sorry I am still first. Just kidding...cmon lighten up.

I said what I said about the HOF because he obviously does not have the credentials as a player. If he gets in because of what he did with the Yanks. So it seemed odd to me is all. I didnt think because the Yanks were mad at him that he wasnt getting in, but it would be ironic to go in because of the Yankees as he bashes them.

[Biggtone23]

Go in as a Cardinal....that is the second dumbest thing I ever read on here. Sorry I am still first. Just kidding...cmon lighten up.

I said what I said about the HOF because he obviously does not have the credentials as a player. If he gets in because of what he did with the Yanks. So it seemed odd to me is all. I didnt think because the Yanks were mad at him that he wasnt getting in, but it would be ironic to go in because of the Yankees as he bashes them.

:happy: No its cool, I actually thought the same thing these days it could help him get into the hall of fame going aganist the Yankees.

[Paulypal]

This new disparagement clause is one of the most embarrassing things I've seen from the Yankees in a long time. It's like they are the spoiled five year old that gets grumpy when people disagree with him


Embarassing indeed, but more than that its probalby illegal on some level.

[johnnypapa]

David Wells was on with Michael Kay today....and he is one pissed off dude. Kay asked him what he would do if he saw Torre on the street and Wells said he would knock him out. Then he backtracked and said he would just laugh at him. Remember when Wells wore that Babe Ruth hat during a game? Torre fined him 165,000 dollars. Wells said he threw money at Torre and told him to buy himself a new set of rims. He said if you were not one of Torre's favorites he had no problem throwing you under a bus despite what he preaches about keeping it in family. He also kind of insinuated that Torre put the A-Fraud thing in there because he knows that kind of stuff bothers Arod and if it distracts Arod on the field it's a way of getting back at the Yankees.

Unless he really needed the money I think Torre made mistake doing this. If he did it for revenge he comes off looking small and there are probably a few more like Wells that will have some negative Joe Torre stories come forward.


Man...Feb. 13th can't come soon enough....

[Mattingly]

I will forever remember Joe Torre as the man who:

Brought the infield in against Luis Gonzalez in 2001.
Torre brought the infield in, which was really ridiculous. I believe that it was Tony Womack on 2B, and Torre seemed more interested in turning a DP. Everyone else was interested in keeping Womack from scoring the winning run.

For the 2001 WS, Torre's over-reliance on Mo for 2-inning saves came back to bite us hard. In the ALCS vs Seattle, he'd gotten away with that, but backfired in Game 7 of the WS. I still believe that had Ramiro Mendoza pitched the 8th, we would've won the WS, since Mo came into the 8th with a 1-run lead. The disastrous plays by Brosius and the ball thrown into CF instead of 2B by Mo didn't result in runs, as they were in the 8th.


Brought Jeff Weaver in in extra innings of game 4 in the 2003 World Series, while an available Mariano Rivera sat in the bullpen.
I didn't really blame Torre for that one, since he'd run out of starters. To my knowledge, Torre had essentially run out of pitchers, and Weaver--a starter--had a decent inning of work when he came out. Of course, in the next inning, game tied, the weak-hitting SS smacks one into the seats to end the game, setting up Game 6 at Yankee Stadium.

Wasn't this Game 5, the one which David Wells started, and he went all of 1 inning for us, and we had to use that Cuban pitcher for long relief? Torre didn't even trust him, as he hadn't been used in the Oakland or Seattle series at all. Why was he on the playoff roster if being not used? Nice to know he's there, "just in case"? I don't get that.

The Yanks' offense in extra innings was pretty bad, so I can't totally blame Torre for using Weaver, since Weaver was the "just in case" pitcher. Had he used Mo for 2+ innings, then he'd have overused Mo, making him less effective in Game 6. Both teams had 2 wins in Game 5, so there was going to be a Game 6 anyway.


Didn't notice when the Orioles batted out of order in 2003.
I remember that game. Some of my friends were watching it and commenting on another board. When the manager fails to tell the ump that a team has batted out of order, it's considered a done deal, and you can't complain about it later on. Just another case of "Clueless Joe" striking again.


Played favorites with veterans, never giving younger players a real chance.
His "My guys" thing killed creativity, since every team eases young guys in. How else do you think that Jeter, Posada, Pettitte, Mendoza came about? They filled a vet's role at a cheaper cost, with an eye towards the future, not just today. Torre didn't seem to grasp that concept.

Against LHPs, Torre favored Todd Zeile (who'd platooned with Robin Ventura at 3B) getting ABs over Nick Johnson, since he didn't trust our young 1Bman. Why? Nicky was a lefty, and Torre admired how well Zeile had played against the Yanks in the 2000 WS. That was about 3 seasons earlier. Wow. Torre had even batted the non-hitting Zeile second. Who bats a vet who's past his prime in the 2-hole of the lineup?

Then there's Jesse Orosco. I have no doubt that was to appease Torre, since Orosco was the Mets' closer in the 1986 WS. He was 46 in 2002, yet that's who Torre trusted. How could someone favor a player who's 6-8 years past retirement for most, rather than someone younger?

Instead of criticizing Brian Cashman for not being faithful enough, he should've thanked him for finally DFA'ing Zeile one September, since Torre would've used him to no end, despite never getting a hit. Cashman was paid by Big Stein, not Torre, so Torre could try lowering the ego level by a few gigantic amounts. Perhaps if Torre had actually gone to a few Winter Meetings, he'd have actually appreciated Cashman's job a little more, presuming that those parts of Cashman's job which weren't all about Joe "Me, Myself and I" Torre, were at least important.

Torre's got a wonderful, grandfatherly persona, very calming demeanor and voice, the "captain of the ship" way of appearing, but the Yankee organization does not, and never has, revolved around one person. He should try adding the word "humility" to his lexicon sometime. It may help.


Called on Tom Gordon in Game 5 of the 2004 ALCS with a 2-run lead, with Mariano Rivera available and sitting in the bullpen.
Gordon single-handedly bungled the whole bullpen thing in the 2004 ALCS, but Mo was blamed. Must be easier blaming Mo than Tom "Flash" Gordon. It was Flash who'd been unable to get players out, allowed about his 1st HR to Ortiz to tie the game, then allowed 2 more runners to reach base before Torre realized that enough was enough. Why Ortiz wasn't IBB'd is beyond me. I didn't like facing Manny (the WS MVP), but Ortiz killed us. He *HAD* to be IBB'd in that situation. By the time Mo came in, the game was tied, corner runners, no outs: a double meltdown from setup and manager. It was still the 8th inning.

Don't forget not having a pitchout when speedy bench guy Roberts was called in to pinch run, since that steal in Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS began the turn in the series. After the steal, Torre still could've IBB'd the batter, who'd ended up getting Roberts home on a game-tying hit. Had Roberts not scored, we would've swept the 2004 ALCS, gone onto the WS vs the Cards.

I won't even mention not bunting vs Schilling with his bloody sock. The "We don't play like that" attitude (<-- my choice of words, not Torre's) said that he wasn't playing to win.


Has a record of 978-1081, two playoff appearances, zero World Series appearances, zero pennants, and ten sub-.500 seasons with teams not named the "New York Yankees."
Since 2001, he has always been and will forever be remembered as Clueless Joe, his moniker when he was picked as unlikely Yankee manager. He can only hope that the book does well, since he will face a lifetime of banishment from Yankee Stadium (and thus, Old Timers' Day appearances), and I do hope that he manages only in the NL, so there will be fewer chances to see him in the Bronx.

The Yanks are considering adding a non-disparagement clause to players' and managers' contracts. They should also add a "non-clueless" clause in there also. Would've saved them lots of money, instead of wasting seasons of all those $200m payroll teams.

[Mattingly]

This new disparagement clause is one of the most embarrassing things I've seen from the Yankees in a long time. It's like they are the spoiled five year old that gets grumpy when people disagree with him
If you've ever been laid off from a job or had your position eliminated, getting a non-disparagement clause is standard issue. That way, so long as they're still paying you, then you can't trash them.

I don't know if it's legal after the contract is over.

[rich]

I'm not a Bomber fan but have a question. I think Joe has made a mistake with this book. With that said, what is your opinion on Hal reportedly telling Torre that there would always be a place for him in the organization and he could work for YES. I mean you gotta be kidding me! That and Cashman reportedly not passing on to the Tampa gang that Joe was agreeable to a 1 year deal with a buyout. They didn't want him back which is fine but from what I can see Hal and Cashman are weasels.

[FrenchyLefebvre]

what is your opinion on Hal reportedly telling Torre that there would always be a place for him in the organization and he could work for YES. I mean you gotta be kidding me! That and Cashman reportedly not passing on to the Tampa gang that Joe was agreeable to a 1 year deal with a buyout. They didn't want him back which is fine but from what I can see Hal and Cashman are weasels.

Beings Torre had already made it painfully obvious during the Joba-gnat incident that it was, indeed, time to move on, the fact that he wasn't canned immediately after that Cleveland series make H&C look like pushovers who were FAR too kind.

I don't see how the Yankees can look bad at all in relation to Torre, and I believed this then. Cashman was responsible for Torre even getting another year (which, to me, was a total shock.) Only one other Yankee manager in their entire history survived that long a WC drought.

They went above and beyond for the guy. It appears he got too spoiled with being royalty, and thought he was immune?? His head simply got toooo big.

[Yankees73]

I just read the book. It seems measured and factual. By hearing the review's, I thought it was going to be a whine fest by Torre. Its anything but that. He gave some real insight of the inner mechanisms of the relationship of the field to the front office. Thoroughly enjoyable.