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View Full Version : BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1936

DoubleX
01-22-2009, 11:26 AM
PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING!

Format and Rules
Voting Rules: Voters may vote for between 0-15 candidates. Votes will be made public, and voters are encouraged to post their ballots in the thread and not view results before voting. PLEASE LIMIT YOUR BALLOT TO 15 VOTES AT MOST. EXCESS VOTES MAY RESULT IN YOUR BALLOT BEING DISQUALIFIED.
-Blank Ballots: A "None of the Above" option is available if you believe no one is worthy and you wish to submit a blank ballot. This option is not to be taken lightly and it is strongly urged that it be used only after the utmost consideration, as non-votes carry great weight. Additionally, if using this option, please post your rationale.

Thoughtfulness and Editing Ballots: Please review and thoughtfully consider the candidates before voting, and make sure you have accurately filled out your ballot before submitting. Requests for editing ballots after the fact will generally not be honored. Exceptions might be made if a voter accidentally voted for the wrong player or accidentally went over the voting limit (but I strongly encourage you to do your best to prevent either from happening).

Required Support: Players receiving at least 75% support in an election will be elected. Players need at least 5% support to stay on the ballot, with an exception for first-year eligible players, who will need at least 1 vote to appear on the next ballot.

Player Eligibility: Players eligible for an election will have last played at least 5 years prior to the election year and have appeared in at least 10 Major League seasons . If a player appeared in less than 10 seasons, he may still be eligible if he had a minimum of 3000 ABs or 1500 IP, though extra scrutiny will be applied. Players will remain on the ballot for 15 years, provided they continue to receive at least 5% of the vote, at which point they will become indefinitely eligible for periodic elections conducted by the Veterans Committee.
- Age Exception: For players 40 or older, they will become eligible the later of either 5 years after their last year of continuous play, or their first inactive year at age 45 or older.

Election Period: Elections will close exactly one week after starting. The next election might not commence for another day or two.


1936 Guide
There are 29 candidates on the 1936 ballot – 23 holdovers and 6 first timers. First time eligible players last played in 1931 (unless qualifying under the age rule).

First Timers (6)
Rip Collins
Joe Dugan
Bibb Falk
Bucky Harris
Wally Schang
Early Sheely

Holdovers (23)
Player Year of Eligibility Previous Support High Support Low Support Average Support
Dave Bancroft 2nd 27.27% 27.27% (1935) 27.27% (1935) 27.27%
Chief Bender 15th 36.36% 60.00% (1929) 35.71% (1934) 45.37%
George J. Burns 7th 9.09% 24.00% (1930) 9.09% (1935) 17.39%
Wilbur Cooper 6th 33.33% 58.33% (1932) 33.33% (1935) 46.14%
Gavvy Cravath 12th 18.18% 37.50% (1925) 18.18% (1935) 26.24%
Johnny Evers 11th 21.21% 41.67% (1932) 21.21% (1935) 28.53%
Larry Gardner 8th 9.09% 15.63% (1931) 6.90% (1933) 9.58%
Heinie Groh 5th 66.67% 66.67% (1932, 1935) 55.17% (1933) 62.31%
Harry Hooper 7th 21.21% 34.38% (1931) 20.69% (1933) 24.45%
Ed Konetchy 11th 9.09% 16.67% (1932) 8.00% (1929) 11.67%
Tommy Leach 15th 57.58% 66.67% (1931) 33.33% (1925) 48.69%
Rube Marquard 7th 12.12% 28.00% (1930) 12.12% (1935) 20.23%
Carl Mays 3rd 45.45% 50.00% (1934) 45.45% (1935) 47.73%
Bob Meusel 2nd 9.09% 9.09% (1935) 9.09% (1935) 9.09%
Del Pratt 8th 12.12% 20.83% (1932) 12.12% (1935) 15.52%
Ed Reulbach 15th 6.06% 17.24% (1924) 6.90% (1933) 11.59%
Ray Schalk 3rd 18.18% 25.00% (1934) 18.18% (1935) 21.59%
Urban Shocker 4th 24.24% 35.71% (1933) 24.24% (1935) 30.33%
Hippo Vaughn 11th 15.15% 21.43% (1934) 10.71% (1927) 15.61%
Bobby Veach 7th 27.27% 39.29% (1934) 24.00% (1930) 30.91%
Cy Williams 2nd 15.15% 15.15% (1935) 15.15% (1935) 15.15%
Joe Wood 9th 15.15% 35.71% (1927) 10.34% (1933) 22.04%
Ross Youngs 5th 12.12% 12.50% (1931) 6.90% (1933) 10.11%

Holdovers Dropped from Last Election (7)
Player Reason Years on Ballot High Support Low Support Average Support
Babe Adams Lack of Support 5 18.75% (1931) 3.03% (1935) 12.57%
Bill Doak Lack of Support 2 3.57% (1934) 0% (1935) 1.79%
Jack Fournier Lack of Support 4 10.34% (1933) 3.03% (1935) 7.21%
Hank Gowdy Lack of Support 2 7.14% (1934) 0% (1935) 3.57%
Bob Shawkey Lack of Support 4 12.50% (1932) 3.03% (1935) 8.25%
Joe Tinker End of Eligibility 15 33.33 (1932) 10.71% (1922) 21.63%
Ken Williams Lack of Support 2 7.14% (1934) 3.03% (1935) 5.09%

Last Year of Eligibility (3)
Player High Support
Chief Bender 60.00% (1929)
Tommy Leach 66.67% (1931)
Ed Reulbach 17.24% (1924)

Penultimate Year of Eligibility (0)
Player High Support

Holdovers Receiving At Least 50% in the Previous Election (2)
Player Previous Support Years with At Least 50% Support
Heinie Groh 66.67% 4
Tommy Leach 57.58% 7


HALL OF FAMERS

Players Elected (78)
Player Year Elected Election Percentage Years on Ballot Position Primary Team Active Years Total Seasons Living/Deceased Age at Election
Pete Alexander 1935 93.94% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1911-1930 20 Living - Age 49 48
Cap Anson 1902 100% 1 First Base Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1871-1897 27 Deceased (1852-1922) 50
Frank Baker 1927 96.43% 1 Third Base Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1908-1914, 1916-1919, 1921-1922 13 Living - Age 50 41
Ross Barnes^ 1911 76.00% 11 Second Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879, 1881 9 Deceased (1850-1915) 61
Jake Beckley 1917 76.00% 6 First Base Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1887-1907 20 Deceased (1867-1918) 50
Charlie Bennett 1907 75.00% 7 Catcher Detroit Wolverines (NL) 1878, 1880-1893 15 Deceased (1854-1927) 53
Roger Bresnahan 1925 79.17% 6 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1897, 1900-1915 17 Living - Age 55 46
Dan Brouthers 1901 90.00% 1 First Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1896, 1904 18 Deceased (1858-1932) 50
Mordecai Brown 1921 96.77% 1 Pitcher Chicago Cubs (NL) 1903-1916 14 Living – Age 60 45
Pete Browning 1909 77.27% 9 Center Field/Left Field Louisville Colonels (NL/AA) 1882-1894 13 Deceased (1861-1905) Deceased
Jesse Burkett 1910 92.00% 1 Left field Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1890-1905 16 Living – Age 68 42
Max Carey 1934 82.14% 1 Center Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1910-1929 20 Living - Age 46 44
Bob Caruthers 1909 77.27% 9 Pitcher/Right Field St. Louis Browns (Cardinals) (NL/AA) 1884-1893 10 Deceased (1864-1911) 45
Frank Chance 1932 83.33% 14 First Base Chicago Cubs (NL) 1898-1914 17 Deceased (1876-1924) Deceased
Cupid Childs 1920 76.92% 15 Second Base Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1888, 1890-1901 13 Deceased (1867-1912) Deceased
Fred Clarke 1917 88.00% 1 Left Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1894-1915 21 Living – Age 68 45
John Clarkson 1901 90.00% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1882, 1884-1894 12 Deceased (1861-1909) 40
Ty Cobb 1933 96.55% 1 Center Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1905-1928 24 Living - Age 50 47
Eddie Collins 1935 96.67% 1 Second Base Chicago White Sox (AL) 1906-1930 25 Living Age - 49 48
Jimmy Collins 1913 82.61% 1 Third Base Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1895-1908 14 Living – Age 66 43
Roger Connor 1902 79.17% 1 First Base New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Deceased (1857-1931) 45
Stan Coveleski 1934 89.29% 2 Pitcher Cleveland Indians (AL) 1912, 1916-1928 14 Living - Age 47 45
Sam Crawford 1922 92.86% 1 Right Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1899-1917 19 Living – Age 56 41
Bill Dahlen 1916 88.00% 1 Shortstop Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1891-1911 21 Living – Age 66 46
George Davis 1914 84.62% 1 Shortstop New York Giants (NL) 1890-1909 20 Living – Age 66 44
Ed Delahanty 1908 96.00% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1903 16 Deceased (1867-1903) Deceased
Larry Doyle 1926 76.00% 2 Second Base New York Giants (NL) 1907-1920 14 Living - Age 50 40
Hugh Duffy 1918 75.00% 8 Center Field/Outfield Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1888-1901, 1904-1906 17 Living – Age 70 52
Buck Ewing 1902 83.33% 1 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Deceased (1859-1906) 43
Elmer Flick 1916 80.00% 1 Right Field Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1898-1910 13 Living – Age 60 40
Pud Galvin 1903 80.77% 3 Pitcher Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1875, 1879-1892 15 Deceased (1856-1902) Deceased
Jack Glasscock 1911 84.00% 11 Shortstop Cleveland Blues (NL) 1879-1895 17 Living – Age 79 54
George Gore 1909 77.27% 9 Center Field Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1879-1892 14 Deceased (1857-1933) 52
Hughie Jennings 1927 75.00% 14 Shortstop Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1891-1903, 1907, 1909, 1912, 1918 17 Deceased (1869-1928) 58
Walter Johnson 1932 100% 1 Pitcher Washington Senators (AL) 1907-1927 21 Living - Age 49 45
Addie Joss 1929 76.00% 15 Pitcher Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1902-1910 9 Deceased (1880-1911) Deceased
Billy Hamilton 1906 82.61% 1 Center Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1901 14 Living – Age 70 40
Paul Hines 1904 76.00% 4 Center Field Providence Grays (NL) 1872-1891 20 Deceased (1855-1935) 49
Tim Keefe 1901 75.00% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1893 14 Deceased (1857-1933) 44
Willie Keeler 1916 92.00% 2 Right Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1892-1910 19 Deceased (1872-1923) 44
Joe Kelley 1920 84.62% 8 Left Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1891-1906, 1908 17 Living – Age 65 49
King Kelly 1902 75.00% 2 Right Field/Catcher Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1878-1893 16 Deceased (1857-1894) Deceased
Napoleon Lajoie 1921 96.77% 1 Second Base Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1896-1916 21 Living – Age 62 47
Herman Long* 1925 (VC) 75.00% VC Shortstop Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1889-1904 16 Deceased (1866-1909) Deceased
Sherry Magee 1924 86.21% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1904-1919 16 Deceased (1884-1929) 40
Christy Mathewson 1922 93.55% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1900-1916 17 Deceased (1880-1925) 41
Joe McGinnity 1913 91.30% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1899-1908 10 Deceased (1871-1929) 42
Bid McPhee 1905 75.00% 2 Second Base Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1882-1899 18 Living – Age 77 46
Cal McVey*^ 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Catcher/First Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879 9 Deceased (1849-1926) 71
Tony Mullane 1908 80.00% 8 Pitcher Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1881-1894 14 Living – Age 76 49
Kid Nichols 1911 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1890-1901, 1904-1906 15 Living – Age 67 42
Jim O’Rourke 1901 90.00% 1 Left Field/Utility New York Giants (NL) 1872-1893, 1904 23 Deceased (1850-1919) 51
Dickey Pearce*^ 1920 (VC) 100% VC Shortstop Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) 1871-1877 7 Deceased (1836-1908) Deceased
Lip Pike*^ 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Center Field Baltimore Canaries (NA) 1871-1878, 1881, 1887 10 Deceased (1845-1893) Deceased
Eddie Plank 1922 92.86% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1901-1917 17 Deceased (1875-1926) 47
Charley Radbourn 1901 95.00% 1 Pitcher Providence Grays (NL) 1881-1891 11 Deceased (1854-1897) Deceased
Hardy Richardson* 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC Second Base/Left Field Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1892 14 Deceased (1855-1931) 65
Amos Rusie 1906 78.26% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1889-1895, 1897-1898, 1901 10 Living – Age 65 35
Jimmy Ryan* 1930 (VC) 86.67% VC Center Field Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1885-1900, 1902-1903 18 Deceased (1885-1923) Deceased
George Sisler 1935 90.91% 1 First Base St. Louis Browns (AL) 1915-1922, 1924-1930 15 Living - Age 43 42
Al Spalding^ 1915 80.00% 15 Pitcher Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1878 8 Deceased (1850-1915) Deceased
Tris Speaker 1933 100% 1 Center Field Cleveland Indians (AL) 1907-1928 22 Living - Age 48 45
Joe Start*^ 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC First Base Providence Grays (NL) 1871-1886 16 Deceased (1842-1927) 78
Harry Stovey 1907 75.00% 7 Left Field/First Base Philadelphia Athletics (AA) 1880-1893 14 Living – Age 80 51
Ezra Sutton* 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Third Base Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1871-1888 18 Deceased (1850-1907) Deceased
Sam Thompson 1907 79.17% 5 Right Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1885-1898, 1906 15 Deceased (1860-1922) 47
George Van Haltren 1918 75.00% 11 Center Field New York Giants (NL) 1887-1903 17 Living – Age 70 52
Rube Waddell 1915 84.00% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1897, 1899-1910 13 Deceased (1876-1914) Deceased
Honus Wagner 1922 92.86% 1 Shortstop Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1897-1917 21 Living – Age 62 48
Bobby Wallace 1925 75.00% 3 Shortstop St. Louis Browns (AL) 1894-1918 25 Living - Age 63 52
Ed Walsh 1922 89.29% 1 Pitcher Chicago White Sox (AL) 1904-1917 14 Living – Age 55 41
John Ward 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop/Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1878-1894 17 Deceased (1860-1925) 47
Mickey Welch* 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1892 13 Living – Age 77 61
Zack Wheat 1932 87.50% 1 Left Field Brooklyn Robins (Dodgers) (NL) 1909-1927 19 Living - Age 48 44
Deacon White^ 1904 76.00% 4 Catcher/Third Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1871-1890 20 Living – Age 89 57
Vic Willis 1919 77.78% 5 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1898-1910 13 Living – Age 60 43
George Wright^ 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1882 12 Living – Age 89 60
Cy Young 1916 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1890-1911 22 Living – Age 69 49

* = Elected by Veterans Committee
^ = Played Significantly Prior to 1871

Players Elected by Primary Position
Catcher (5): Charlie Bennett, Roger Bresnahan, Buck Ewing, Cal McVey, Deacon White
First Base (7): Cap Anson, Jake Beckley, Dan Brouthers, Frank Chance, Roger Connor, George Sisler, Joe Start
Second Base (7): Ross Barnes, Cupid Childs, Eddie Collins, Larry Doyle, Napoleon Lajoie, Bid McPhee, Hardy Richardson
Third Base (3): Frank Baker, Jimmy Collins, Ezra Sutton
Shortstop (10): Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Jack Glasscock, Hughie Jennings, Herman Long, Dickey Pearce, Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace, John Ward, George Wright
Left Field (8): Jesse Burkett, Fred Clarke, Ed Delahanty, Joe Kelley, Sherry Magee, Jim O'Rourke, Harry Stovey, Zack Wheat
Center Field (11): Pete Browning, Max Carey, Ty Cobb, Hugh Duffy, George Gore, Billy Hamilton, Paul Hines, Lip Pike, Jimmy Ryan, Tris Speaker, George Van Haltren
Right Field (5): Sam Crawford, King Kelly, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Sam Thompson
Pitcher (22): Pete Alexander, Mordecai Brown, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Stan Coveleski, Pud Galvin, Walter Johnson, Addie Joss, Tim Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Tony Mullane, Kid Nichols, Eddie Plank, Charley Radbourn, Amos Rusie, Al Spalding, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh, Mickey Welch, Vic Willis, Cy Young

Players Elected by Year
1901 (5): Dan Brouthers, John Clarkson, Tim Keefe, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn
1902 (4): Cap Anson, Roger Connor, Buck Ewing, King Kelly
1903 (1): Pud Galvin
1904 (2): Paul Hines, Deacon White
1905 (1): Bid McPhee
1906 (2): Billy Hamilton, Amos Rusie
1907 (5): Charlie Bennett, Harry Stovey, Sam Thompson, John Ward, George Wright
1908 (2): Ed Delahanty, Tony Mullane
1909 (3): Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, George Gore
1910 (1): Jesse Burkett
1911 (3): Ross Barnes, Jack Glasscock, Kid Nichols
1912 (0):
1913 (2): Jimmy Collins, Joe McGinnity
1914 (1): George Davis
1915 (2): Al Spalding, Rube Waddell
1916 (4): Bill Dahlen, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Cy Young
1917 (2): Jake Beckley, Fred Clarke
1918 (2): Hugh Duffy, George Van Haltren
1919 (1): Vic Willis
1920 (2): Cupid Childs, Joe Kelley
- 1920 VC (7): Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Hardy Richardson, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Mickey Welch
1921 (3): Mordecai Brown, Napoleon Lajoie, Christy Mathewson
1922 (4): Sam Crawford, Eddie Plank, Honus Wagner, Ed Walsh
1923 (0):
1924 (1): Sherry Magee
1925 (2): Roger Bresnahan, Bobby Wallace
- 1925 VC (1): Herman Long
1926 (1): Larry Doyle
1927 (2): Frank Baker, Hughie Jennings
1928 (0):
1929 (1): Addie Joss
1930 (0):
- 1930 VC (1): Jimmy Ryan
1931 (0):
1932 (3): Frank Chance, Walter Johnson, Zack Wheat
1933 (2): Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker
1934 (2): Max Carey, Stan Coveleski
1935 (3): Pete Alexander, Eddie Collins, George Sisler
- 1935 VC (0):

Players Elected by Primary Decade
1870s (9): Ross Barnes, Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Al Spalding, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Deacon White, George Wright
1880s (21): Cap Anson, Charlie Bennett, Dan Brouthers, Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Roger Conner, Buck Ewing, Pud Galvin, Jack Glasscock, George Gore, Paul Hines, Tim Keefe, King Kelly, Tony Mullane, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn, Hardy Richardson, Harry Stovey, John Ward, Mickey Welch
1890s (17): Jake Beckley, Jesse Burkett, Cupid Childs, Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Ed Delahanty, Hugh Duffy, Billy Hamilton, Hughie Jennings, Joe Kelley, Herman Long, Bid McPhee, Kid Nichols, Jimmy Ryan, Amos Rusie, Sam Thompson, George Van Haltren
1900s (19): Roger Bresnahan, Mordecai Brown, Frank Chance, Fred Clarke, Jimmy Collins, Sam Crawford, Elmer Flick, Addie Joss, Willie Keeler, Napoleon Lajoie, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Eddie Plank, Rube Waddell, Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace, Ed Walsh, Vic Willis, Cy Young
1910s (11): Pete Alexander, Frank Baker , Max Carey, Ty Cobb, Eddie Collins, Larry Doyle, Walter Johnson, Sherry Magee, Tris Speaker, Zack Wheat
1920s (2): Stan Coveleski, George Sisler

Players Elected by Primary Organization
Baltimore Canaries (NA) (1): Lip Pike
Baltimore Orioles (NL) (3): Hughie Jennings, Willie Keeler, Joe Kelley
Boston Braves (fka Beaneaters) (NL) (6): John Clarkson, Hugh Duffy, Herman Long, Kid Nichols, Ezra Sutton, Vic Willis
Boston Red Sox (fka Americans) (AL) (2): Jimmy Collins, Cy Young
Boston Red Stockings (NA) (4): Ross Barnes, Cal McVey, Al Spalding, George Wright
Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) (1): Dickey Pearce
Brooklyn Dodgers (fka Robins) (1): Zack Wheat
Buffalo Bisons (NL) (4): Dan Brouthers, Pud Galvin, Hardy Richardson, Deacon White
Chicago Cubs (fka White Stockings, Colts) (NL) (7): Cap Anson, Mordecai Brown, Frank Chance, Bill Dahlen, George Gore, King Kelly, Jimmy Ryan
Chicago White Sox (AL) (2): Eddie Collins, Ed Walsh
Cincinnati Reds (NL, AA) (2): Bid McPhee, Tony Mullane
Cleveland Blues (NL) (1): Jack Glasscock
Cleveland Indians (fka Naps) (AL) (5): Stan Coveleski, Elmer Flick, Addie Joss, Napoleon Lajoie, Tris Speaker
Cleveland Spiders (NL) (2): Jesse Burkett, Cupid Childs
Detroit Tigers (AL) (2): Ty Cobb, Sam Crawford
Detroit Wolverines (NL) (1): Charlie Bennett
Louisville Colonels (NL, AA) (1): Pete Browning
New York Giants (NL) (13): Roger Bresnahan, Roger Connor, George Davis, Larry Doyle, Buck Ewing, Tim Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Jim O’Rourke, Amos Rusie, George Van Haltren, John Ward, Mickey Welch
Philadelphia Athletics (AL) (3): Frank Baker, Eddie Plank, Rube Waddell
Philadelphia Athletics (AA) (1): Harry Stovey
Philadelphia Phillies (NL) (5): Pete Alexander, Ed Delahanty, Billy Hamilton, Sherry Magee, Sam Thompson
Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) (4): Jake Beckley, Max Carey, Fred Clarke, Honus Wagner
Providence Grays (NL) (3): Paul Hines, Charley Radbourn, Joe Start
St. Louis Browns (AL) (2): George Sisler, Bobby Wallace
St. Louis Cardinals (fka Browns) (NL, AA) (1): Bob Caruthers
Washington Senators (AL) (1): Walter Johnson


Miscellaneous Information
- Highest Regular Election Percentage: Cap Anson, Walter Johnson, Kid Nichols, Tris Speaker, Cy Young – 100%
- Number of 1st Ballot Electees: 37
- Number of Electees with At Least 90% Support: 24
- Average Regular Election Percentage: 84.93%
- Most Years on Ballot Before Election: Cupid Childs, Addie Joss, Al Spalding – 15
- Number of Players Elected After 10 Years on Ballot: 8
- Average Wait Before Election: 3.91 Years
- Number of Players Lasting 15 Years on Ballot without Election: 21
- Number of Players Elected by Veterans Committee: 9
- Average Electees per Veterans Committee Election: 2.25
- Highest Percentage Among Players Not Elected: Heinie Groh, Tommy Leach - 66.67%
- Highest Average Percentage Among Players Not Elected: Heinie Groh - 62.31%
- Most Regular Election Electees in One Year: 5 (1901, 1907)
- Fewest Regular Election Electees in One Year: 0 (1912, 1923, 1928, 1930, 1931)
- Average Regular Election Electees Per Year: 2.03
- Largest Ballot: 78 Players (1901)
- Largest Post-1915 Ballot: 47 Players (1932)
- Smallest Ballot: 23 Players (1918)
- Most Votes Cast: 33 (1935)
- Fewest Votes Cast: 20 (1901)
- Average Votes Cast: 25.77
- Team With Most Players Elected: New York Giants - 13
- Team With Second Most Players Elected: Chicago Cubs - 7
- Electee with Longest Post-1871 Career: Cap Anson – 27 Seasons
- Electee with Shortest Post-1871 Career: Dickey Pearce – 8 Seasons
- Average Post-1871 Career Length of Electees: 16.17 Seasons
- Youngest Elected Player: Amos Rusie – Age 35
- Oldest Elected Player: Joe Start – 78
- Average Age at Election: 47.97
- Number of Posthumously Elected Players: 15
- Number of Living Hall of Famers: 41
- Oldest Living Hall of Famer: Deacon White, George Wright - 89
- Deceased in Past Year:

Number of Ballots Submitted in Past Elections
1901: 20
1902: 24
1903: 26
1904: 25
1905: 24
1906: 23
1907: 24
1908: 25
1909: 22
1910: 25
1911: 25
1912: 23
1913: 23
1914: 26
1915: 25
1916: 25
1917: 25
1918: 24
1919: 27
1920: 26
1921: 31
1922: 28
1923: 25
1924: 29
1925: 24
1926: 25
1927: 28
1928: 27
1929: 25
1930: 25
1931: 32
1932: 24
1933: 29
1934: 28
1935: 33

Links to Past Elections (10)
1901 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77167)
1902 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77464)
1903 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77797)
1904 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78133)
1905 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78417)
1906 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78737)
1907 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79020)
1908 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79393)
1909 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79738)
1910 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80134)
1911 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80597)
1912 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81008)
1913 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81477)
1914 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81965)
1915 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82365)
1916 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82681)
1917 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82940)
1918 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83241)
1919 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83422)
1920 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83665), 1920 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83697)
1921 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83924)
1922 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84099)
1923 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84257)
1924 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84423)
1925 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84552), 1925 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84636)
1926 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84727)
1927 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84871)
1928 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85029)
1929 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85206)
1930 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85358), 1930 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85439)
1931 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85681)
1932 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85850)
1933 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86054)
1934 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86291)
1935 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86514), 1935 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86576)
Freakshow
01-22-2009, 12:07 PM
Alexander, Collins and Sisler were elected. Tinker expired. They were replaced by newbie Schang, returnees Konetchy and Wood, and Bancroft.

Bancroft
Bender
GJ Burns
W. Cooper
Cravath
Evers
Groh
Hooper
Konetchy
Leach
Mays
Schang
Shocker
Veach
J. Wood
jjpm74
01-22-2009, 12:14 PM
My ballot:

Chief Bender--15th year on the ballot, 1st American Indian star. Close enough for me to give him the benefit of the doubt this go around.

Wilbur Cooper--The strongest pitcher on the ballot and someone who fits well within our standards.

Heinie Groh--I'm not sure why he's struggling to get elected. How many 3rd basemen were better than him? Fits well within our standards.

Tommy Leach--15th year of eligibility. He had 66% of the vote 5 years ago. Where did his supporters disappear to? Superstar defensive ace at both 3B and CF. Is being punished for being so good that he could be used at 2 vital positions.

Ray Schalk--Best defensive catcher to date.

Wally Schang--Fits out standard for catchers. Comparable to the already elected Roger Bresnahan.

Urban Shocker--Borderline but within our pitching standards.

Bobby Veach--Fits is well with GVH, Duffy and Ryan, all of whom are in our HOF.
KCGHOST
01-22-2009, 12:33 PM
Groh
Leach
Shocker

I suspect we won't elect anyone of this crowd.
DoubleX
01-22-2009, 12:59 PM
Wally Schang--Fits out standard for catchers. Comparable to the already elected Roger Bresnahan.

One might argue that he was better than Bresnahan. He had a longer career by about 1100 PA, caught 460 more games than Bresnhan, and has a higher career OPS+ than Bresnahan (117 to 112). Bresnahan though was a better baserunner and likely gets a subjective boost over Schang due to his role in modernizing the catcher position. Schang may not have had as long and productive career as he did if not for Bresnahan's equipment innovations and popularizations. Either way you slice it though, I think Schang fits our standards though I fear an uphill battle to elect him.

My ballot:

Dave Bancroft
Johnny Evers
Heinie Groh - It's time we put him in. In a down year, I implore people to take a long look at Groh and 3B in general.
Tommy Leach - His last year. It was a good fight, but probably not quite enough. I suspect he'll stand a decent chance with the VC.
Del Pratt
Wally Schang
Bobby Veach - I think he meets the lower end of our OF standards.
Cy Williams - I was about to drop Williams, but I fear that he might be dropped altogether and I think he's worth some extended consideration. Along with Hornsby, he was really the first of the new breed of power hitters in the NL, the first NL hitter in fact to hit 200 career homeruns (he finished with 251). He did benefit from the Baker Bowl, but his career OPS+ is 125 which is around our CF standards. Win Shares aren't too kind to him though and I'll probably drop him sooner than later.
AstrosFan
01-22-2009, 01:02 PM
Heinie Groh
Tommy Leach
PVNICK
01-22-2009, 01:36 PM
Bender
Cooper
Evers
Groh
Leach
Schalk
Schang
Shocker
Vaughn

I added Vaugh to Cooper and Shocker all of whom are quite close. As far a C go I voted habitually for Kling so I can't see not voting for Schalk and once I did that a quick look at Schang and a 40 odd point adavntage in OPS+ makes him a must add. Glad to see I'm not the only person who had Bresnahan come to mind with respect to Schang.


Groh, Evers and Leach are all the types of players that get over looked, namely A level defenders that were better than average but not much more at the plate.
jalbright
01-22-2009, 01:40 PM
Wilbur Cooper
Heinie Groh
Tommy Leach
Carl Mays
Senor Octobre
01-22-2009, 02:44 PM
My ballot...

Bancroft, Dave
Bender, Chief
Cooper, Wilbur
Evers, Johnny
Groh, Heinie
Hooper, Harry
Leach, Tommy
Mays, Carl
Schang, Wally
Vaughn, Hippo
Veach, Bobby
Williams, Cy

Added Evers, Vaughn and Cy Williams to my ballot.

Schang for a first-timer.
Domenic
01-22-2009, 05:03 PM
Cooper
Cravath
Groh
Leach
Veach
leecemark
01-22-2009, 05:23 PM
--Groh's support has exploded in the early going here. He looks very likely to make it. Tommy Leach is also making a strong push for his last year on the ballot. I'm hoping he holds on for election. Wally Schang is the only newcomer on my ballot. I'm not positive he belongs, but he certainly deserves a through hearing. He is at 50% as of my vote so it looks like we'll have a couple years to debate his qualifications.
henrich
01-22-2009, 06:14 PM
chief bender
johnny evers
larry gardner
heinie groh
harry hooper
tommy leach
carl mays
bob meusel
ed reulbach
wally schang
urban shocker
hippo vaughn'

Added two pitchers there at the end, relaxing my standards a bit.
vtbub
01-22-2009, 07:34 PM
Mays
Shocker
Wood

Groh's peak is too short and also over WWI.

Thought about leach, but fell on the wrong side of the border.
STLCards2
01-22-2009, 07:35 PM
Groh
Shocker
SavoyBG
01-22-2009, 09:33 PM
Only Groh and Mays for me.

Schang is interesting. He hit enough to go in as a catcher if he had been a great fielder too, but he wasn't. He was an important part of three different great teams, 1913-14 A's, 1918 Red Sox, 1921--23 Yankees, and even played for the 1930 A's.

Didn't have much of a peak. Despite playing 19 seasons he only had 5307 career at bats, partially because he walked a lot, but more because he only caught 100 games 5 times in his career, with 167 games in the OF and 60 games at 3B (mainly in 1915).

Contemporary observors thought a lot of him. He was top ten in the MVP voting in 1913 (rookie year) and 1914, but there was no MVP voting during his best years. Schalk seems to have been a little more respected by contemporary observors.

Win shares makes him the 2nd team all star catcher for the 1910-1919 AL and the first team catcher for the 1920-1929 AL. He's probably the best catcher between Bresnahan and current stars like Hartnett, Dickey and Cochrane, who all seem to be on a level or two (or three) higher than Wally was.

It would be nice to find an overlooked hall of famer here, but I think that he's just a notch below deserving that honor.
DoubleX
01-22-2009, 10:46 PM
Didn't have much of a peak. Despite playing 19 seasons he only had 5307 career at bats, partially because he walked a lot, but more because he only caught 100 games 5 times in his career, with 167 games in the OF and 60 games at 3B (mainly in 1915).

Just out of curiosity, but how many full time catchers to this point have had more plate appearances than Schang's 6423? Here are the PA and games caught total of some notable catchers as of 1936 (this list isn't meant to be all-inclusive, just who sprang to mind, so I could be forgetting someone):

Plate Appearances
1) McGuire: 6932
2) Schang: 6423
3) Farrell: 6254
4) Schalk: 6217
5) Hartnett: 5950
6) O'Connor: 5780
7) Robinson: 5419
8) Bresnahan: 5374
9) Ruel: 5292
10) Zimmer: 5076
11) O'Farrell: 4792
12) Severeid: 4787
13) Peitz: 4635
14) Kling: 4640
15) Wingo: 4372
16) Bennett: 4310
17) Warner: 3824
18) Dickey: 3799
19) Snyder: 3737
20) Ferrell: 3615
21) Meyers: 3226
22) Gowdy: 3143

Games Caught
1) Schalk: 1727
2) McGuire: 1611
3) Cochrane: 1451
4) Hartnett: 1465
5) Schang: 1435
6) Ruel: 1410
7) O'Farrell: 1338
8) Robinson: 1316
9) Zimmer: 1239
10) Wingo: 1233
11) Severeid: 1225
12) Kling: 1168
13) Warner: 1032
14) Bresnahan: 974
15) Peitz: 960
16) Bennett: 954
17) Dickey: 923
18) Meyers: 911
19) Gowdy: 893
20) Ferrell: 891
21) Snyder: 877
22) O'Connor: 860

Schang would appear to be about as durable as any catcher has been to this point in the game's history. Further, his 117 OPS+, over what was a long career for a catcher, is a good chunk ahead of most every other catcher who played prior to the Hartnett/Cochrane/Dickey trio. Catchers would typically struggle just to get an OPS+ that approached 100 for a season, let alone for an entire career, and Schang put up 117 in what has to date been one of the longest careers for a catcher. I think he's done enough.

I also think the Win Shares feat you mentioned is very much in Schang's favor. Considering catchers typically have short careers to this point in history, to make the first and second Win Shares All Star teams in two different decades is a pretty impressive accomplishment.

I think you might be viewing Schang too much with 2009 eyes (given that you said "It would be nice to find an overlooked hall of famer here," implying that he's been overlooked by Cooperstown). By our standards and the history of the game through 1936, Schang would appear, IMO, to be a worthy choice.
SavoyBG
01-22-2009, 11:01 PM
Just out of curiosity, but how many full time catchers to this point have had more plate appearances than Schang's 6423? Here are the PA and games caught total of some notable catchers as of 1936 (this list isn't meant to be all-inclusive, just who sprang to mind, so I could be forgetting someone):

Plate Appearances
1) McGuire: 6932
2) Schang: 6423
3) Farrell: 6254
4) Schalk: 6217
5) Hartnett: 5950
6) O'Connor: 5780
7) Robinson: 5419
8) Bresnahan: 5374
9) Ruel: 5292
10) Zimmer: 5076
11) O'Farrell: 4792
12) Severeid: 4787
13) Peitz: 4635
14) Kling: 4640
15) Wingo: 4372
16) Bennett: 4310
17) Warner: 3824
18) Dickey: 3799
19) Snyder: 3737
20) Ferrell: 3615
21) Meyers: 3226
22) Gowdy: 3143

Games Caught
1) Schalk: 1727
2) McGuire: 1611
3) Cochrane: 1451
4) Hartnett: 1465
5) Schang: 1435
6) Ruel: 1410
7) O'Farrell: 1338
8) Robinson: 1316
9) Zimmer: 1239
10) Wingo: 1233
11) Severeid: 1225
12) Kling: 1168
13) Warner: 1032
14) Bresnahan: 974
15) Peitz: 960
16) Bennett: 954
17) Dickey: 923
18) Meyers: 911
19) Gowdy: 893
20) Ferrell: 891
21) Snyder: 877
22) O'Connor: 860

Schang would appear to be about as durable as any catcher has been to this point in the game's history.

I think you might be viewing Schang too much with 2009 eyes (given that you said "It would be nice to find an overlooked hall of famer here," implying that he's been overlooked by Cooperstown). By our standards and the history of the game through 1936, Schang would appear, IMO, to be a worthy choice.

My bad, sorry about the "overlooked" comment. Hard to always keep that in mind.

I must dispute you categorizing him as "durable as any catcher has been to this point in the game's history."

His "longevity" was great, but his "durability" was not so great. He only caught 100 games 5 times in any season, while Schalk did that 12 times, 11 of them over 120 games. Ruel caught 100 games in a season 8 times in a row. In his short career Chief Meyers caught over 100 games in 5 consecutive seasons. Schang only caught over 120 games one time.

To me "durability" means playing a lot within each season. Hartnett has already caught 100 games ten times. Cochrane has done it in all 11 of his seasons to date.
mwiggins
01-23-2009, 06:46 AM
Groh
Leach
Youngs
Schang
Brooklyn
01-23-2009, 07:30 AM
Blank Ballot. I'm closest on Groh, but his career and peak were too short for me
jjpm74
01-23-2009, 10:21 AM
Blank Ballot. I'm closest on Groh, but his career and peak were too short for me

Please elaborate on this as Groh's career was not short.
Ubiquitous
01-23-2009, 10:35 AM
I'd say only 12 seasons that are anything close to a full season is pretty short. His peak as far all star level players isn't really short. 6 or 7 years of top quality play is pretty good for most players. Problem is though that he doesn't then have the 10 or so years of average to above average play like most of those all star players have that make them HoF'ers. If you are going to have a short career it probably helps to have a Ralph Kiner like peak.
Paul Wendt
01-23-2009, 11:28 AM
Ralph Kiner?:mad:
mwiggins
01-23-2009, 11:48 AM
I'd say only 12 seasons that are anything close to a full season is pretty short. His peak as far all star level players isn't really short. 6 or 7 years of top quality play is pretty good for most players. Problem is though that he doesn't then have the 10 or so years of average to above average play like most of those all star players have that make them HoF'ers. If you are going to have a short career it probably helps to have a Ralph Kiner like peak.

I think the argument can be made that his peak, for a 3B as of 1936, was at that level. But the shortness of his full-time career does make him very borderline, for me at least.
bambambaseball
01-23-2009, 12:39 PM
Huh? You people who think Groh is borderline, because he had an excellent peak without enough padding, whyd some of you vote for Addie Joss? He had no padding whatsoever and his peak was no more impressive then Heinie Groh. What about Hughie Jennings? Hes in too! :banghead:
SavoyBG
01-23-2009, 12:45 PM
I think the argument can be made that his peak, for a 3B as of 1936, was at that level. But the shortness of his full-time career does make him very borderline, for me at least.


For those who think that Groh was borderline, keep in mind that only two National League teams won the world series in the ten year period from 1915 to 1924 (Reds once, Giants twice), and .....

Groh was the captain of both teams !!!



Okay, so they had a little help in '19. These things happen:mad:
Phish
01-23-2009, 01:39 PM
Groh

Out of all those guys on the ballot, he's the only one that really deserves induction.
mwiggins
01-23-2009, 02:00 PM
Huh? You people who think Groh is borderline, because he had an excellent peak without enough padding, whyd some of you vote for Addie Joss? He had no padding whatsoever and his peak was no more impressive then Heinie Groh. What about Hughie Jennings? Hes in too! :banghead:

He's borderline for me because he wasn't really that dominant. He was a very good hitter and a very good fielder for a good number of years. For a 3B, his hitting was excellent at his peak. But he was only among the very best hitters in the NL for about 3 years. And 3B is an important position, so the fact that he was a very good fielder there counts for a lot.

And I would certainly not say that his peak was as impressive as Joss's. It was probably better than Jennings' peak, though.
Brooklyn
01-23-2009, 02:19 PM
Please elaborate on this as Groh's career was not short.

As a couple of poeple already said, Groh only played over 130 games 6 times, 115+ another 5 times and 97 once. No other seasons over 27 games. So he had 11 "full" seasons, and most of them missed a significant amount of time.
leecemark
01-23-2009, 02:30 PM
He's borderline for me because he wasn't really that dominant. He was a very good hitter and a very good fielder for a good number of years. For a 3B, his hitting was excellent at his peak. But he was only among the very best hitters in the NL for about 3 years. And 3B is an important position, so the fact that he was a very good fielder there counts for a lot.

And I would certainly not say that his peak was as impressive as Joss's. It was probably better than Jennings' peak, though.

--I'd say the opposite. Groh was a greater player at his peak than Joss, but not as great as Jennings. Although Groh's career was not long, it was longer than either of those Hall of Famers.
mwiggins
01-23-2009, 02:37 PM
--I'd say the opposite. Groh was a greater player at his peak than Joss, but not as great as Jennings. Although Groh's career was not long, it was longer than either of those Hall of Famers.

I could buy that. Either way, Groh deserves to be in and hopefully he will make it this year.
Ubiquitous
01-23-2009, 03:19 PM
Groh is like the Dodo bird to me. He is another Wee Willie Keeler. A player who because of the environment was able to play while the environment was intact but once it changed he was gone.
Paul Wendt
01-23-2009, 03:31 PM
(Win Shares comparisions are manual findings using Win Shares p495-502.)
And I would certainly not say that his peak was as impressive as Joss's. It was probably better than Jennings' peak, though.
vice versa, as leecemark said

Heinie Groh was close to Win Shares MVP of his league three years running, when he was its WS leader in sum. Examining his season records without comparing other players, you miss it because the 1917-19 seasons were about 10% short, on average.

Win Shares 1917-1919
119 Ruth
109 Cobb
95 Groh (projected to 154 games: 37-34-33, sum 104)
94 Johnson
91 Speaker
89 Burns
85 Coveleski
85 Roush
82 Hornsby
82 Vaughn
81 Cicotte

That is everyone with 80 win shares, I believe.

75 Collins (MS, 97 games 1918)
69 Kauff (MS, 67 games 1918)
68 Alexander (MS, 3 games 1918)
67 Jackson (MS, 17 games 1918)

'MS' means military service. None of these four players served during 1919 and none matched Groh during the two seasons 1917 and 1919 (67 win shares to 59, 54, 66, 63). During those two seasons in sum, Groh ranked tie for third with Cicotte.

--
Addie Joss was never the third best pitcher over three seasons; during his best three he trailed Walsh, Brown, and Mathewson. Overall he was the third of fourth best player on his team with Bill Bradley. Only the last two years of his own career peek out from behind Elmer Flick's productive seasons.
philkid3
01-23-2009, 03:54 PM
I think this might be my smallest vote ever.

Chief Bender
Heinie Groh
Tommy Leach
Bobby Veach

And this is two of those guys' last year. I will be supporting Bender and Leach in the VC.
mwiggins
01-23-2009, 03:59 PM
(Win Shares comparisions are manual findings using Win Shares p495-502.)

vice versa, as leecemark said

Heinie Groh was close to Win Shares MVP of his league three years running, when he was its WS leader in sum. Examining his season records without comparing other players, you miss it because the 1917-19 seasons were about 10% short, on average.


That definitely creates a clear picture of his absolute peak. Thanks for the info Paul...I stand corrected. :blush:
philkid3
01-23-2009, 04:01 PM
I'm not seeing anyone next year with an argument other than Harry Heilmann. Am I wrong?

I could have a TWO MAN ballot next year. And Veach just barely fits my standard.
Ubiquitous
01-23-2009, 04:17 PM
By 1917 I'd say the NL was a second class league when compared to the AL.
jjpm74
01-23-2009, 04:28 PM
I'm not seeing anyone next year with an argument other than Harry Heilmann. Am I wrong?

I could have a TWO MAN ballot next year. And Veach just barely fits my standard.

That's about it for next year's class. The only other ones who might get a vote or 2 are George Kelly and Eddie Rommel:

Rube Bressler
Pete Donohue
Cliff Heathcote
Harry Heilmann
Charlie Jamieson
George Kelly
Freddy Leach
Jackie May
Clarence Mitchell
Eddie Rommel
Bill Sherdel
DoubleX
01-24-2009, 12:06 AM
Why does Joe Dugan have a vote?
dgarza
01-24-2009, 09:31 PM
duplicate post
dgarza
01-24-2009, 09:33 PM
Dave Bancroft
Chief Bender
George Burns
Gavvy Cravath
Johnny Evers
Heinie Groh
Harry Hooper
Rube Marquard
Carl Mays
Bobby Veach
Ross Youngs
Cy Williams

1. Bobby Veach
2. Carl Mays
3. Gavvy Cravath
4. Chief Bender
5. Cy Williams
6. George J Burns
7. Ross Youngs
8. Heinie Groh
9. Dave Bancroft
10. Rube Marquard
11. Harry Hooper
12. Johnny Evers
STLCards2
01-24-2009, 09:36 PM
I think this might be my smallest vote ever.

Chief Bender
Heinie Groh
Tommy Leach
Bobby Veach

And this is two of those guys' last year. I will be supporting Bender and Leach in the VC.

Bender doesn't fit your typical supported player profile. Out of curiosity, why the support?
SavoyBG
01-27-2009, 09:58 PM
Groh looks good.
jjpm74
01-28-2009, 08:22 AM
Groh looks good.

Not really. 2 ballots without him on them and he's back under the line again.
Ubiquitous
01-28-2009, 08:29 AM
If Groh gets elected it is because of the weak ballot year.
SavoyBG
01-28-2009, 09:51 PM
If Groh gets elected it is because of the weak ballot year.


Perhaps, although that's how it works sometimes. People will look at borderline candidates longer when they have no easy choices to vote for. I'm not so sure that this is the reason that he is doing better this time around. We'd have to look at which voters had not voted for him in the past until this year.

Obviously some people who did not vote for Groh at some point (like me) have come around to see the light. That's why candidates get 15 years on the ballot rather than one or three or five. I think the fact that many prominent voters here thought he belonged makes others who are not yet on the bandwagon take a longer look. Groh is not a guy that I ever thought of as a hall of famer, but after zeroing in on his credentials it became obvious that he was a marginally better player than Jimmy Collins, who I always thought was a lower level HOFer. I think Groh is at least a borderline HOFer, and once you consider his standing as the captain of a couple of different championship teams I think you have to vote for him.

Now, in the case of Leach, I have taken several longer looks at him, and while he was avery good and unique player, I still see him as a clear notch below hall of fame level. Perhaps the fact that three of his teammates (Wagner, Clarke, Willis) are already in is hurting him a little, but maybe it should. Every great team needs key players who are very good, but not quite hall of famers. The early Cubs had Evers, Tinker and Sheckard, and a couple of pitchers. Perhaps Leach, Beaumont and a couple of pitchers are those guys from the Pirate teams of that era.
csh19792001
01-28-2009, 09:54 PM
By 1917 I'd say the NL was a second class league when compared to the AL.

What have you learned that leads to that conclusion? How long was the NL second class after that?
Ubiquitous
01-28-2009, 10:52 PM
I've long felt that the NL by mid to late teens had become the clearly inferior league. Based on various things I have read and research both statistical and historical that I have done myself I would say this inferiority lasted until WWII. I have no idea who was better during WWII nor do I really care and then at some point in the late 40's and early 50's the NL caught up to the AL and eventually passed them. At some point after that it gets murky and eventually at some other point in the late 90's early 2000's the AL passed the NL.


The AL payed top dollar to its players as well as to minor leaguers. Once the AL got the players it was virtually impossible for that player to leave the league so once the AL got the advantage it was virtually impossible for them to give it up.

Don't get me wrong, depth was a problem in both leagues and the NL did have good teams. For instance the Giants were a consistently good team for a long time in this period. The Cubs when Wrigley took over could have been as well but the Cubs refused to take advantage of the West Coast pipeline they had and consequently all that talent went to the AL.

The NL in this period always gave me the inpression that it was filled with the common guy, lunch pale player, while the AL had the stars.
AG2004
01-29-2009, 09:42 AM
Now, in the case of Leach, I have taken several longer looks at him, and while he was avery good and unique player, I still see him as a clear notch below hall of fame level. Perhaps the fact that three of his teammates (Wagner, Clarke, Willis) are already in is hurting him a little, but maybe it should. Every great team needs key players who are very good, but not quite hall of famers. The early Cubs had Evers, Tinker and Sheckard, and a couple of pitchers. Perhaps Leach, Beaumont and a couple of pitchers are those guys from the Pirate teams of that era.

Willis' Hall case relies, for the most part, on his Boston years; he was very good in Pittsburgh, but not quite as good as he was in New England.

Leach has two seasons with 30+ win shares, and one more with 29. He has eight seasons with 20+ win shares, and one more with 19. Given that win shares slightly underrates top defensive players, and Leach was a top defensive player, we have three MVP-candidate-type seasons and nine All-Star-type seasons. That's usually been good enough for the Hall of Fame (Sheckard is the exception).

What's hurt Leach is the assumption, among some people, that all defensive positions are equal. That's not the case; center field is much more important than right or left. Since Leach was placed in center, his defensive value wasn't much lower than it was at third base.

Here's my ballot:
Geroge J. Burns
Wilbur Cooper
Heinnie Groh
Tommy Leach
Carl Mays

-----
Contrary to rumors, I was not involved with Literary Digest's presidential poll this year. One wonders how the magazine could have gathered two million respondents and gotten the result so wrong.
SavoyBG
01-29-2009, 09:59 AM
Leach has two seasons with 30+ win shares, and one more with 29. He has eight seasons with 20+ win shares, and one more with 19. Given that win shares slightly underrates top defensive players, and Leach was a top defensive player, we have three MVP-candidate-type seasons and nine All-Star-type seasons. That's usually been good enough for the Hall of Fame (Sheckard is the exception).


I have him with one season of 30 win shares, and one with 29.

I don't believe that win shares underrates top defensive players. Given that James artificially awards 52% of win shares to defense (pitching & fielding) and 48% to offense (hitting and baserunning), fielders already are getting a slight bit more than the numbers say, to start. 29% of Leach's career win shares come from fielding.

The problem for me with Leach is his inconsistency. He has three or four years as an above average hitter, and then has back to back years as a below average hitter. From 1910 through 1912 his OPS+ numbers are 92, 78 and 98. Three straight below average hitting yeras. In 1904 and 1905 he was at 98 and 92. His career TPR, for what that's worth, is only 12.0. He only had two HOF level seasons according to TPR (1902 and 1904).

A career OPS+ of 108. I don't think that 108 is good enough for a hall of famer, even a great fielder, unless he's maybe a long career great fielder at SS.
SavoyBG
01-29-2009, 10:01 AM
Not really. 2 ballots without him on them and he's back under the line again.

How about now?

He'd have to be left off of the next THREE ballots to be under the line now.
Paul Wendt
01-29-2009, 10:49 AM
I don't believe that win shares underrates top defensive players. Given that James artificially awards 52% of win shares to defense (pitching & fielding) and 48% to offense (hitting and baserunning), fielders already are getting a slight bit more than the numbers say, to start.
You should check that. It may be 48 : 35- : 17+ (two-thirds of defense to pitching, one-third to fielding). Or 35% may be the floor and 17% the ceiling for fielding. Some people question when in baseball history pitching became 35% of the game --or 35% of the game for the most pitching-light:fielding-heavy teams, if it's a floor.

A career OPS+ of 108. I don't think that 108 is good enough for a hall of famer, even a great fielder, unless he's maybe a long career great fielder at SS.
Those may be the words of someone who would not support Bobby Wallace (never called a great fielding shortstop as far as I know). Or maybe not, since Wallace played longer than Leach, and longer when he was clearly past his prime.
SavoyBG
01-29-2009, 10:55 AM
Those may be the words of someone who would not support Bobby Wallace (never called a great fielding shortstop as far as I know). Or maybe not, since Wallace played longer than Leach, and longer when he was clearly past his prime.

Good example, a career 106 OPS+, but only a B shortstop as a fielder. He'd be very borderline for me, it would be tough to vote for him. The hall of fame should be, IMO, for great players, not just for long time very good players.
philkid3
01-29-2009, 10:58 AM
Bender doesn't fit your typical supported player profile. Out of curiosity, why the support?

Sorry for ignoring you, I didn't see this question.

I'm kind've glad you notice he doesn't fit my normal standard, and I make no bones about that. He definitely doesn't. I've discussed this a handful of times, but I'm not only voting for players who meet a standard of statistical excellence or some such. That is the primary reason almost every player will or won't get in. I do reserve the right to treat a players' spot in history or in popular conception with some importance, though, as well.

In Benders' case, I am treating him with the respect of being the first top notch American Indian player, dealing for much of his career with some racial predjudice and for being -- even now for some people I know -- a sort of symbol of pride for many American Indians.

I'm not necessarily comparing him to whatever player eventually breaks the color barrier, but, as long as he has at least a passing career, I'll put that player in, too.


I don't expect everyone to feel the same way, I don't think Bender's performance fits the standard, and I don't think he's getting shafted. And if he's in, he doesn't change my standard and I don't think he should change anyone else's if he gets in. But he does easily get my vote and I will continue to support him in the VC.
jjpm74
01-29-2009, 11:01 AM
Good example, a career 106 OPS+, but only a B shortstop as a fielder. He'd be very borderline for me, it would be tough to vote for him. The hall of fame should be, IMO, for great players, not just for long time very good players.

Why would a B defensive SS be borderline for you but someone with an A+ 3B/CF be a definite no? Leach's ability to field 2 positions and be a top player at both is more valuable than a B SS with an inferior career would be.
DoubleX
01-29-2009, 02:53 PM
Leach was our last link to the 19th Century.
SavoyBG
01-29-2009, 03:15 PM
Why would a B defensive SS be borderline for you but someone with an A+ 3B/CF be a definite no? Leach's ability to field 2 positions and be a top player at both is more valuable than a B SS with an inferior career would be.

I don't agree, although I thought I was clear that Wallace would be NO for me too. Wallace and Leach were even as hitters as Wallace had an OPS+ just 2 points lower, but in about 250 more games. A "B" shortstop who can still be a regular at SS until he is almost 40 years old is more valuable than an A+ at 3B in CF and here's the proof:

CAREER WIN SHARES
Wallace - 345
Leach - 329

For what it's worth, TPR has Wallace as WAY better than Leach. "Rhody" is at 35.4 while Leach is only at 12.0. TPR has Wallace as an all time great fielder at SS and 3B. They rank him as # 14 of all time in "fielding wins."

Each player is a NO for me, but Wallace is slightly closer to a yes.
SavoyBG
01-29-2009, 03:16 PM
Leach was our last link to the 19th Century.


well, the VC could not find a player to induct this time around, so Leach will likely be the leading candidate next time around.
AG2004
01-30-2009, 06:24 PM
I have him with one season of 30 win shares, and one with 29.


I should have made it clear that the two seasons with 30+ win shares came after I made my usual schedule-length adjustments for 1900-03.