BBF VC Progressive HoF Contributors Election: 1936

[jjpm74]

Deleted........

[SavoyBG]

Players elected by year:

1925 Doc Adams, Alex Cartwright, Henry Chadwick, Harry Wright, William Hulbert, Charlie Comiskey, Jim Creighton
1930 Rube Foster, Connie Mack, AG Spalding



This should read "Inductees elected by year" as not all of them were (ever) players.

[SavoyBG]

Here's my votes:


Ed Barrow
Charles Conlon
Tom Connolly
Al Munro Elias
Bob Ferguson
Clark Griffith
Ned Hanlon
Miller Huggins
Ban Johnson
Bill Klem
Ring Lardner
Tommy McCarthy
John McGraw
Frank Selee
Chris von der Ahe

[Paul Wendt]

perhaps "Members elected as contributors"?
you don't need to say that the listing is "by year"

Charles Leavitt, Jr.?
I don't recall the name so I looked for a short biography and found this one.
Charles Wellford Leavitt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Wellford_Leavitt)

The new candidates tend to be younger but that is not universally true. Let me distinguish those with contributions mainly or wholly in the 20th century, including 19th century players who must be listed here because of the other roles they filled.

Earlier (* means a close call Early or Late)

Cap Anson
Frank C. Bancroft *
John T. Brush *
Morgan Bulkeley
Charlie H. Byrne
O.P. Caylor
Candy Cummings
Bob Ferguson
Ned Hanlon
Tommy McCarthy
A.G. Mills
Jim Mutrie
Al Reach
Frank Selee *
Arthur Soden
Alfred H. Spink
Ernest Thayer
Chris von der Ahe
John Ward
Horace Wilson
George Wright

Later (* means a close call Early or Late)

Ed Barrow
Sy Berger
Frank Chance
Fred Clarke
Charles Conlon
Tom Connolly -- MLB umpire
Barney Dreyfuss
Jack Dunn
Al Munro Elias
Kid Gleason
Clark Griffith
Garry Herrmann
Miller Huggins
Ban Johnson
Bill Klem -- MLB umpire
Kenesaw Landis
Ring Lardner
Charles W. Leavitt Jr. -- ballpark design
John McGraw
Jose Mendez
Pat Moran
Tim Murnane *
Frank Osborn -- ballpark design
Francis Richter *
Wilbert Robinson
Ben Shibe *
Charles Somers
J.G. Taylor Spink
Harry Stevens *
C.I. Taylor
Sol White (blue)

* - presum. nominated largely for work in the other century too
underline - presum. nominated mainly for work as major league field and roster manager (many others served in those roles)
bold underline - that and more, still likely to be lauded largely as a major league manager

brown represents baseball across the color line, broadly
blue represents baseball journalism, broadly
bold blue marks "journalists" also involved in founding or governing baseball clubs or leagues

Text labels cover a few candidates with supposedly simple roles. If there is a more complex case for honoring someone then a test label is inappropriate.
- umpire
- ballparks (design and construction)

--
At last I have a webpage that I can work on while I commute by bus. This is complicated!

--
Charles is Conlon; Jocko is Conlan
Sy Berger must be here for developing and transforming the baseball card at Topps. If so it is premature to consider him.

[dgarza]

Since this is the second election, *I thought this was the 3rd one.

[jjpm74]

deleted....been fun

[SavoyBG]

Corrections notes and made.

Also, welcome SavoyBG to the VC Contributor's committee.

Thanks, it's an honor to be part of this committee. You guys can call me Bruce.

[henrich]

1. Clark griffith
2. frank chance
3. miller huggins
4. kennesaw landis
5. john mcgraw
6. george wright
7. wilbert robinson
8. fred clarke
9. kid gleason

[jjpm74]

deleted.............

[PVNICK]

OP Caylor
Jack Dunn
Bob Ferguson
Clark Griffith
Ned Hanlon
Tim Murname
Al Reach
Alfred H. Spink
Chris Von der Ahe

[jalbright]

Barrow
Dunn
Griffith
Hanlon
Huggins
Ban Johnson
Landis
McGraw
Selee
C. I. Taylor

[jjpm74]

deleted.........

[SavoyBG]

Time out for a point about Negro Leaguers. Some members here brought up they did not think that Negro Leaguers should be considered until around the time that they were actually considered in real life, or around the time that the first black major leaguer gets inducted.

In real life they did not start to induct hall of famers until 1936. Since this hall of fame started THIRTY FIVE YEARS EARLIER than Cooperstown did, perhaps that sets a precedent for inducting Negro Leaguers 35 years earlier too, which if true would mean that they would start to get inducted right around now (1936).

Maybe a compromise can be struck where Negro Leaguers would become eligible as soon as the first Negro Leaguer plays in major league game. Perhaps the VC or this committee could discuss and take a vote on this at some time soon.

[leecemark]

Morgan Bulkeley
Ned Hanlon
Al Reach
Frank Selee *
Ed Barrow
Ban Johnson
John McGraw
Francis Richter *
Ben Shibe *

[BlueBlood]

Ed Barrow
Candy Cummings
Barney Dreyfuss
Bob Ferguson
Clark Griffith
Ned Hanlon
Miller Huggins
Ban Johnson
Bill Klem
Kenesaw Landis
John McGraw
Al Reach
Frank Selee
Ben Shibe
Sol White

Fifteen names I can live with in order to be the opposite of an obstructionist.

[dgarza]

Cap Anson
Morgan Bulkeley
Frank Chance
Charles Conlon
Candy Cummings
Ned Hanlon
Miller Huggins
Ban Johnson
John McGraw
A.G. Mills
Al Reach
Francis Richter
Frank Selee
Alfred H. Spink
John Ward

[philkid3]

I agree with Blue Blood in many ways.

Ed Barrow
Candy Cummings
Barney Dreyfuss
Bob Ferguson
Clark Griffith
Ned Hanlon
Miller Huggins
Ban Johnson
Bill Klem
Kenesaw Landis
John McGraw
Al Reach
Frank Selee
Ben Shibe
Sol White

[Paul Wendt]

Previous VC Contributors Threads:

1920 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83852)
1925 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84578)
1930 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85439)
1936 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86598)
That "1930" links to the Players thread

[Paul Wendt]

This is now a vote for 13. Some of them are hopes to catch on, maybe not placed ahead of everyone else upon due process. If I return in time I will read everything written here and add two more votes, or more than two and relegate some of these.

. . . now a vote for 15 after penciling in Cummings and Ferguson

Key
underline marks important field managers and bold represents important higher roles in club management as well
brown represents the color line
blue means professional journalism
(*) - a little writing on the side


Frank C. Bancroft -- also led traveling teams West, South, and to Cuba
Candy Cummings
Bob Ferguson
Clark Griffith
Ned Hanlon
Ban Johnson
John McGraw
Tim Murnane -- also founder & president of minor leagues
Frank Osborn -- Osborn Engineering, ballpark design & construction
Al Reach -- early pro player, Reach Sporting Goods and publications, Philly clubs
Francis Richter -- Sporting Life :bowdown:
Frank Selee
C.I. Taylor
John Ward (*)
Sol White (*)


Eight more are high in my consideration set now. One is Al Spink who helped organize baseball in St Louis, and then the American Association, later founded The Sporting News, later wrote The National Game, a vast collection of historical notes (1910).

Regarding some of the others:

Bill Klem -- MLB umpire
: other than call 'em as he saw 'em, for a long time, what did he do?

Ed Barrow -- minor league president, major & minor field manager and club president
: to earn a vote the Yankees stint must be a big deal. what did he do amidst Jake Ruppert, Colonel Huston, and Miller Huggins or Joe McCarthy?

Ben Shibe -- baseball-maker, Connie Mack's partner
: who used his patent method of producing baseballs for how long? Was it Shibe? in partnership with Al Reach? for the major major leagues or the entire Spalding line?

[jjpm74]

deleted............

[Cowtipper]

John T. Brush
O. P. Caylor
Tom Connolly
Candy Cummings
Barney Dreyfuss
Garry Herrmann
Ban Johnson
Bill Klem
Kenesaw Landis
Tommy McCarthy
John McGraw
Al Reach
Francis Richter
Ben Shibe
Alfred H. Spink

[SavoyBG]

Bill Klem -- MLB umpire
: other than call 'em as he saw 'em, for a long time, what did he do?



Klem should perhaps wait until he retires, as he is still currently umpiring, but here's his resume to date:


William Joseph Klem, born William Joseph Klimm (February 22, 1874), known as the "father of baseball umpires", is a National League umpire in Major League Baseball from 1905 to today. Klem is widely respected for bringing dignity and professionalism to umpiring, as well as for his high skill and good judgment. Klem was also an innovative umpire; he was the first major league umpire to use arm signals while working behind home plate, and was one of the first umpires to wear a modern, somewhat pliable chest protector inside of the shirt – a move which he successfully campaigned to have adopted throughout the NL. He was the first to straddle foul lines for better perspective and stand to the side of the catcher for a better look at pitches. Finally, he was the last umpire to routinely work the plate in all games.

Born in Rochester, New York, he worked a record 17 World Series to date, 1908, 1909, 1911, 1912, 1913, 1914, 1915, 1917, 1918, 1920, 1922, 1924, 1926, 1929, 1931, 1932, and 1934. Of the 16 major league teams in existence during his career, all but one – the St. Louis Browns, – appeared in a World Series that he officiated; the only other teams which did not win a championship with Klem on the field were the Brooklyn Dodgers and Philadelphia Phillies, and the Detroit Tigers. He was also one of the umpires for the first All-Star Game in 1933, and worked behind the plate for the second half of the game.

He called balls and strikes in five no-hitters, an NL record. He was also the home plate umpire on September 16, 1924, when Jim Bottomley of the St. Louis Cardinals had a record 12 runs batted in. Klem had a number of nicknames amongst the players: his favorite was "The Old Arbitrator", but his jowly appearance also led to some players calling him "Catfish". Klem despised the latter name, and was notorious for ejecting players whom he caught using it. One particular incident involved a player who Klem ejected after he caught the player drawing a picture of a catfish with his foot in the infield dirt.

[jjpm74]

deleted..............

[jalbright]

Ed Barrow -- minor league president, major & minor field manager and club president
: to earn a vote the Yankees stint must be a big deal. what did he do amidst Jake Ruppert, Colonel Huston, and Miller Huggins or Joe McCarthy?


-Barrow signed Honus Wagner to what I think was his second professional contract, and thus is a key participant in the development of his talent.

-He won the World Series as manager of the Red Sox in 1918

-He's the manager who made Babe Ruth a full-time OF

-He hired Joe McCarthy to follow Miller Huggins as manager of the Yankees, which proved to be quite successful.

-He was the Yankee GM from 1921-44, during which time:
=====The Yankees won 10 World Series and 14 pennants
=====The Yankees had only one season under .539, in 1925, when Ruth had his abdominal abcess
=====Barrow built the Yankee farm system into a regular provider of talent

In essence, Barrow, along with Branch Rickey, created the role of the modern GM.

Dan Levitt, Barrow's biographer, in an interview said this (http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2008/04/qa_with_dan_lev.php):

there were really three different phases [in Barrow's tenure with the Yankees]: 1921 - 1923, 1926 - 1928, and 1936 - 1943. Much of Barrow's genius lay is reading the environment correctly so that he could build and then rebuild on the fly. After joining the Yankees, Barrow spent roughly $450,000 to buy up the rest of Boston owner Harry Frazee's best players. This avenue dried up in 1923 when Frazee sold the team – he was out of good players by this time anyway – and other major league teams were not sellers during the roaring twenties. To restock his team in the mid-1920s Barrow assembled a terrific team of scouts and bought top talent from the independent minors. In the 1930s the onset of the Depression led to new rules regarding the ownership of minor league franchises. With these revised, more favorable rules in place, owner Jacob Ruppert demanded Barrow start a farm system. Barrow quickly developed the best minor league organization in the league while his scouts redirected their efforts to nation's best amateurs to stock

The New York Post's review of Levitt's book (http://www.nypost.com/seven/04062008/postopinion/postopbooks/yankee_flipper_105159.htm)had this:
Popular lore has it that the Yankees transformed from sad sacks to champions when they bought Babe Ruth from the Red Sox before the 1920 season, but simply having the Bambino in the fold was no guarantee for long-term success. That guarantee came with the acquisition of Barrow - then the Red Sox' manager - the next year. As the legendary New York World-Telegram sportswriter Joe Williams once put it, the Barrow hiring "was the best deal the Yankees ever made." As Levitt adds, "The Ruth purchase placed America's best baseball player and biggest sports celebrity in its largest city. The Barrow acquisition a year later ensured that the short-term boost from Ruth would be solidified and prolonged into one of the great sports dynasties of the 20th century."
It was with the Yankees where Barrow would realize his full potential after years of kicking around from venture to venture, city to city, and team to team. "Barrow prided himself on both his organizational abilities and his player evaluation skills," Levitt writes, and "the Yankees offered him the opportunity to employ both." At a time where the business and baseball sides of Major League teams were separate and distinct, Ed Barrow brought them together, essentially inventing the modern-day position of general manager. Armed with the then unprecedented combination of decision making power and baseball savvy, Barrow wasted no time turning the Yankees into a juggernaut.
How did he do it? Every way he could. He raided his old club, spending over $400,000 acquiring some of the Red Sox' best players. Meanwhile, "one of Barrow's most significant and lasting influences was the emphasis and resources he put into scouting," Levitt observes. "Barrow and his scouts spent lavishly by the standards of the era to land top Minor League baseball talent."
Finally, while Barrow himself initially resisted the newly-created farm system, Yankees' owner Jacob Ruppert felt differently. But "once Ruppert directed the new approach, Barrow moved quickly." Within a few short years the Yankees had a farm system that served as the model for the rest of the league, and with the talent pipeline in place, Barrow would preside over a franchise that won 14 pennants and 10 World Championships before he retired.


I think Barrow is a worthy choice for the Hall of Fame

[Paul Wendt]

STLC and jimalbright,
Thanks for the replies on Klem and Barrow.

Landis is 70 years old, Barrow 70, Klem 62.
I am inclined to let them sit and consider them in five or ten years. In some ways all three are "giants" of the game so the rest of the group may elect them without my vote, I understand.


Landis will shape what Baseball emerges from the difficult times we still face. Will the major leagues take control utterly? Will they survive as two leagues with competing clubs in some cities? At the same time, will the baseball museum and library be institutions that the national game deserves? What about the Centennial? Cooperstown and 1939 make two of the biggest jobs for him and his office and I believe he intends to see them through.


Barrow and the rest of the Yankees club may have the team back on top again. The Tigers at least will have something to say about it and Tom Yawkey says Boston too. At the same time the Yankees farm system to develop and control young players is a question mark. Will they be able to match what Rickey and the Cardinals have done? Time will tell.
:blah:

Re Barrow, I am able to add from unclear memory of his autobiograpy (which I have read for his baseball career through about 1906) and Sporting Life (which I have scrolled on microfilm roughly 1897-1916):
- managed a team in Iowa including Fred Clarke
- led the Atlantic League around 1900, perhaps when it was "outlaw"
- led the Eastern League around 1910, renamed it the International League (maybe brought Toronto or other Canadian cities back in to OB?). He was one president during times when the strongest minor leagues were contesting their relationship with the majors.

That full biography by Levitt is one that I should read although I really should make Ban Johnson a higher priority.

add: From 1912-1917, Barrow was president of the EL (now known as the International League). During that time, he led two attempts to turn the League into a third major league, first as a competitor to the Federal League, then on its own. --from "Ed Barrow" at the BR Bullpen, which cites Levitt


Klem did not introduce arm signals for balls and strikes. That was Cy Rigler in the Southern League(?). The signals earned a lot of attention from the New York Times and other newspapers at the time, and they were adopted promptly and widely. Rigler reached the majors only next season and "found that his signals had preceded him". [paraphrase unknown source]
[The main facts are "well known" in the third millenium. This contribution by Rigler has put him on the veterans committee ballot along with Doug Harvey and a batch of field managers.]

Does Klem now have the longest record of any major league umpire?
The World Series record is impressive, especially the 1908-1920, ten in 13 years, because I know that the Commission tried to select the most reliable umpires. Maybe I will jump on his bandwagon. (For one thing, anyone we elect will free about ten votes for next time!)


add: For now I have added votes for two pioneer players Candy Cummings and Bob Ferguson to complete a vote for 15.

[AG2004]

Klem did not introduce arm signals for balls and strikes. That was Cy Rigler in the Southern League(?). The signals earned a lot of attention from the New York Times and other newspapers at the time, and they were adopted promptly and widely. Rigler reached the majors only next season and "found that his signals had preceded him". [paraphrase unknown source]
[The main facts are "well known" in the third millenium. This contribution by Rigler has put him on the veterans committee ballot along with Doug Harvey and a batch of field managers.]

Does Klem now have the longest record of any major league umpire?
The World Series record is impressive, especially the 1908-1920, ten in 13 years, because I know that the Commission tried to select the most reliable umpires. Maybe I will jump on his bandwagon. (For one thing, anyone we elect will free about ten votes for next time!)


The National League selected the person it considered the best umpire for the World Series. The American League used a rotation, as Ban Johnson claimed that all of its umpires were good enough for the World Series.

Still, it looks like Tom Connolly was the first among equals among AL umpires. He was an NL umpire for three years in the 1890s before he quit, protesting the league's failure to back up umpires. Still, he gained a reputation for quality during that time; Ban Johnson hired him, sight unseen, for the AL, based on Connie Mack's reputation.

Connolly was the AL's umpire of choice for landmark games. He was the umpire for the first-ever American League game, and was named the league's umpire for the first World Series in 1903. He was also given the assignments for the first games at Shibe Park, Comiskey Field, Fenway Park, and Yankee Stadium. Overall, he umpired in eight world series

After the 1931 season, with 34 major league seasons to his credit, he "retired" from active duty to become the AL's supervisor of umpires, the first person to hold that position in any league, and has been credited with improving the performance of umpires in the Junior Circuit.

I'd wait until Klem retires before inducting him.

---

My Ballot

Ed Barrow
Tom Connolly
Candy Cummings
Jack Dunn
Bob Ferguson
Clark Griffith
Miller Huggins
Ban Johnson
Kenesaw Mountain Landis
John McGraw
Al Reach
Frank Selee
Ben Shibe

[Paul Wendt]

AG,
Do you have an article on Ben Shibe?

Connie Mack tends to get all the credit for ballclub and for Philadelphia's share of success in the American League. I understand that Shibe and Reach were partners regarding baseball production and distribution, rivals in 1901 as co-owners of the Athletics and Phillies.


On the ballparks in Philadelphia and elsewhere:

The Baker Bowl (Phillies, 1895) was an advance in its time, one of several first fireproof ballparks and first concrete and steel ballparks. New Sportsmen's Park (new Browns, 1902) was also proclaimed for one or both of those firsts. Then Forbes Field and Shibe Park (Pirates and Athletics, 1909). I don't what degree of fireproofing or what use of concrete and steel people mean.

Forbes Field and Shibe Park are praised as ballparks today, and that is not true of Baker Bowl and Sportsman's Park.

Supporters of John T. Brush probably recognize greatness in The Palace of the Fans (Reds 1901?) and the Polo Grounds (Giants 1911?).

Here of course it is important to ask how much credit ballclub owners Dreyfus, Shibe, and Brush deserve for the latter four ballparks. I have heard Al Reach credited with designing the Baker Bowl but I have not heard anyone say that about the later ones. On the one hand it seem impossible. On the other I wonder whether there is a real truth in it, perhaps related to changes in the building industry (materials, structural principles, legal regulation, professionalization).

Based on a little reading this year (1936), my current position on the ballparks is Charles Leavitt, not in my consideration set; Frank Osborn, now on my ballot; ballclub owners, lots of questions.

[Paul Wendt]

AG,
Thanks for the article on Connolly.
In five years I may vote for Connolly and Klem.


I wrote and AG replied indirectly.

>> The World Series record is impressive, especially the 1908-1920, ten in 13 years, because I know that the Commission tried to select the most reliable umpires.

> The National League selected the person it considered the best umpire for the World Series. The American League used a rotation, as Ban Johnson claimed that all of its umpires were good enough for the World Series.

It's good to know that the leagues named the umpires.

Do you know whether Landis respected that arrangement?
Perhaps there was some interregnum, 1921-23 (Landis first three seasons), before more rules governing the World Series, 1924.

[jjpm74]

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[Brad Harris]

For what it's worth, my two cents:

Cap Anson
Ed Barrow
Barney Dreyfuss
Ned Hanlon
Garry Herrmann
Miller Huggins
Ban Johnson
Bill Klem
Kenesaw Mountain Landis
John McGraw
Francis Richter
Frank Selee
J.G. Taylor Spink
John Ward
George Wright

[jjpm74]

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[jjpm74]

deleted............

[Brad Harris]

If you want back in on this committee, just say the word. :)
I'll be voting. If you're dumb....err, gracious enough to give my opinion any weight, I won't complain ;)

Thanks.

[Paul Wendt]

Here are the results of this year's VC Contributor's election. Any contributor named on 9 ballots was elected. Please reference this list in 1941 as some candidates missed by 1 vote. Some of these contributors would benefit greatly from some discussion.
If I am able to learn or relearn anything in the next five years, from sources beyond the ken of google, probably it will be about Reach or Shibe.

Here are the election results for the leading holdovers only, with my markup.

Contributor Ballots
Clark Griffith 8 certain
Al Reach 8 certain
Miller Huggins 8
Ed Barrow 7 * (likely when he retires)
Candy Cummings 7 soft
Bob Ferguson 7 soft
Kenesaw Landis 7 * (presumable when he retires)
Bill Klem 5 * (presumable when he retires)
Ben Shibe 5
Jack Dunn 4
Francis Richter 4 certain

I voted for the four winners and five of these leaders, of whom I will support three persistently (marked "certain"). My support for Cummings and Ferguson is soft. I do not anticipate dropping them from the ballot now that they have seven votes but I may be persuaded.

Upon their retirements Ed Barrow will deserve serious consideration and Ken Landis will be difficult for me to deny.

I anticipate adding umpire Bill Klem as soon as he retires and adding his AL counterpart Tom Connolly immediately (not shown, 3 votes).

Bill McKechnie has now taken the Cincinnati Reds to the World Series, as well as the Pirates and Cardinals. He is another whom I expect to support when he retires.

--
Huggins - it's too bad he died young

Shibe - Earlier this year I have asked some questions and provided some vague recollections. I hope to learn or relearn more before we reconvene.

Dunn - What did Jack Dunn do between work as John McGraw's substitute 1901-1904 and his sale of Babe Ruth to the Red Sox in 1914?

[SavoyBG]

Bob Ferguson 7 soft


Paul, are you aware of Ferguson's work as an umpire?

The most famous early exponents of the two basic styles of umpiring were Robert V. Ferguson and John H. Gaffney. Ferguson, known during his playing days as "Robert the Great" and "Death to Flying Things," ruled as an iron-fisted autocrat....

Here is the full article about the history of umpiring:

http://www.stevetheump.com/umpiring_history.htm

Apparantly John H. Gaffney was very important to the evolution of umpiring:

Gaffney, dubbed "The King of the Umpires," controlled the game through tact and diplomacy. Gaffney also popularized the technique of working behind home plate until a player reached base and then moving behind the pitcher. (Before this the umpire worked either behind the batter or behind the pitcher and did not shift.) In 1888 Gaffney was the highest-paid umpire in baseball, earning $2,500 a year, plus expenses on the road.