BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1935

[DoubleX]

PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING!

Format and Rules
Voting Rules: Voters may vote for between 0-15 candidates. Votes will be made public, and voters are encouraged to post their ballots in the thread and not view results before voting. PLEASE LIMIT YOUR BALLOT TO 15 VOTES AT MOST. EXCESS VOTES MAY RESULT IN YOUR BALLOT BEING DISQUALIFIED.
-Blank Ballots: A "None of the Above" option is available if you believe no one is worthy and you wish to submit a blank ballot. This option is not to be taken lightly and it is strongly urged that it be used only after the utmost consideration, as non-votes carry great weight. Additionally, if using this option, please post your rationale.

Thoughtfulness and Editing Ballots: Please review and thoughtfully consider the candidates before voting, and make sure you have accurately filled out your ballot before submitting. Requests for editing ballots after the fact will generally not be honored. Exceptions might be made if a voter accidentally voted for the wrong player or accidentally went over the voting limit (but I strongly encourage you to do your best to prevent either from happening).

Required Support: Players receiving at least 75% support in an election will be elected. Players need at least 5% support to stay on the ballot, with an exception for first-year eligible players, who will need at least 1 vote to appear on the next ballot.

Player Eligibility: Players eligible for an election will have last played at least 5 years prior to the election year and have appeared in at least 10 Major League seasons . If a player appeared in less than 10 seasons, he may still be eligible if he had a minimum of 3000 ABs or 1500 IP, though extra scrutiny will be applied. Players will remain on the ballot for 15 years, provided they continue to receive at least 5% of the vote, at which point they will become indefinitely eligible for periodic elections conducted by the Veterans Committee.
- Age Exception: For players 40 or older, they will become eligible the later of either 5 years after their last year of continuous play, or their first inactive year at age 45 or older.

Election Period: Elections will close exactly one week after starting. The next election might not commence for another day or two.


1935 Guide
There are 38 candidates on the 1935 ballot – 27 holdovers and 11 first timers. First time eligible players last played in 1930 (unless qualifying under the age rule).

First Timers (11)
Pete Alexander
Dave Bancroft
Hal Carlson
Eddie Collins
Howard Ehmke
Ira Flagstead
Bubbles Hargrave
Bob Meusel
George Sisler
Curt Walker
Cy Williams

Holdovers (27)
Player Year of Eligibility Previous Support High Support Low Support Average Support
Babe Adams 5th 7.14% 18.75% (1931) 7.14% (1934) 14.95%
Chief Bender 14th 35.71% 60.00% (1929) 35.71% (1934) 46.06%
George J. Burns 6th 17.86% 24.00% (1930) 13.79% (1933) 19.05%
Wilbur Cooper 5th 53.57% 58.33% (1932) 40.63% (1931) 49.34%
Gavvy Cravath 11th 21.43% 37.50% (1925) 20.83% (1932) 27.04%
Bill Doak 2nd 3.57% 3.57% (1934) 3.57% (1934) 3.57%
Johnny Evers 10th 32.14% 41.67% (1932) 28.57% (1927) 29.34%
Jack Fournier 4th 7.14% 10.34% (1933) 7.14% (1934) 8.60%
Larry Gardner 7th 7.14% 15.63% (1931) 6.90% (1933) 9.67%
Hank Gowdy 2nd 7.14% 7.14% (1934) 7.14% (1934) 7.14%
Heinie Groh 4th 60.71% 66.67% (1932) 55.17% (1933) 60.85%
Harry Hooper 6th 21.43% 34.38% (1931) 20.69% (1933) 25.10%
Ed Konetchy 10th 14.29% 16.67% (1932) 8.00% (1929) 11.96%
Tommy Leach 14th 60.71% 66.67% (1931) 33.33% (1925) 48.01%
Rube Marquard 6th 17.86% 28.00% (1930) 17.86% (1934) 21.85%
Carl Mays 2nd 50.00% 50.00% (1934) 50.00% (1934) 50.00%
Del Pratt 7th 14.29% 20.83% (1932) 13.79% (1933) 16.09%
Ed Reulbach 14th 7.41% 17.24% (1924) 6.90% (1933) 12.01%
Ray Schalk 2nd 25.00% 25.00% (1934) 25.00% (1934) 25.00%
Bob Shawkey 4th 7.14% 12.50% (1932) 7.14% (1934) 9.99%%
Urban Shocker 3rd 35.71% 35.71% (1933) 31.03% (1933) 33.37%
Joe Tinker 15th 25.00% 33.33% (1932) 10.71% (1922) 21.66%
Hippo Vaughn 10th 21.43% 21.43% (1934) 10.71% (1927) 15.66%
Bobby Veach 6th 39.29% 39.29% (1934) 24.00% (1930) 31.64%
Ken Williams 2nd 7.14% 7.14% (1934) 7.14% (1934) 7.14%
Joe Wood 9th 10.71% 35.71% (1927) 10.34% (1933) 22.90%
Ross Youngs 5th 10.71% 12.50% (1931) 6.90% (1933) 9.61%

Holdovers Dropped from Last Election (2)
Player Reason Years on Ballot High Support Low Support Average Support
Joe Bush Lack of Support 2 3.57% (1934) 3.45% (1933) 3.51%
Baby Doll Jacobson Lack of Support 3 6.90% (1933) 0% (1934) 3.69%

Last Year of Eligibility (1)
Player High Support
Joe Tinker 33.33% (1932)

Penultimate Year of Eligibility (3)
Player High Support
Chief Bender 60.00% (1929)
Tommy Leach 66.67% (1931)
Ed Reulbach 17.24% (1924)

Holdovers Receiving At Least 50% in the Previous Election (2)
Player Previous Support Years with At Least 50% Support
Heinie Groh 60.71% 3
Tommy Leach 60.71% 6
Wilbur Cooper 53.57% 2
Carl Mays 50.00% 1


HALL OF FAMERS

Players Elected (75)
Player Year Elected Election Percentage Years on Ballot Position Primary Team Active Years Total Seasons Living/Deceased Age at Election
Cap Anson 1902 100% 1 First Base Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1871-1897 27 Deceased (1852-1922) 50
Frank Baker 1927 96.43% 1 Third Base Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1908-1914, 1916-1919, 1921-1922 13 Living - Age 49 41
Ross Barnes^ 1911 76.00% 11 Second Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879, 1881 9 Deceased (1850-1915) 61
Jake Beckley 1917 76.00% 6 First Base Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1887-1907 20 Deceased (1867-1918) 50
Charlie Bennett 1907 75.00% 7 Catcher Detroit Wolverines (NL) 1878, 1880-1893 15 Deceased (1854-1927) 53
Roger Bresnahan 1925 79.17% 6 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1897, 1900-1915 17 Living - Age 54 46
Dan Brouthers 1901 90.00% 1 First Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1896, 1904 18 Deceased (1858-1932) 50
Mordecai Brown 1921 96.77% 1 Pitcher Chicago Cubs (NL) 1903-1916 14 Living – Age 59 45
Pete Browning 1909 77.27% 9 Center Field/Left Field Louisville Colonels (NL/AA) 1882-1894 13 Deceased (1861-1905) Deceased
Jesse Burkett 1910 92.00% 1 Left field Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1890-1905 16 Living – Age 67 42
Max Carey 1934 82.14% 1 Center Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1910-1929 20 Living - Age 45 44
Bob Caruthers 1909 77.27% 9 Pitcher/Right Field St. Louis Browns (Cardinals) (NL/AA) 1884-1893 10 Deceased (1864-1911) 45
Frank Chance 1932 83.33% 14 First Base Chicago Cubs (NL) 1898-1914 17 Deceased (1876-1924) Deceased
Cupid Childs 1920 76.92% 15 Second Base Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1888, 1890-1901 13 Deceased (1867-1912) Deceased
Fred Clarke 1917 88.00% 1 Left Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1894-1915 21 Living – Age 67 45
John Clarkson 1901 90.00% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1882, 1884-1894 12 Deceased (1861-1909) 40
Ty Cobb 1933 96.55% 1 Center Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1905-1928 24 Living - Age 49 47
Jimmy Collins 1913 82.61% 1 Third Base Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1895-1908 14 Living – Age 65 43
Roger Connor 1902 79.17% 1 First Base New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Deceased (1857-1931) 45
Stan Coveleski 1934 89.29% 2 Pitcher Cleveland Indians (AL) 1912, 1916-1928 14 Living - Age 46 45
Sam Crawford 1922 92.86% 1 Right Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1899-1917 19 Living – Age 55 41
Bill Dahlen 1916 88.00% 1 Shortstop Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1891-1911 21 Living – Age 65 46
George Davis 1914 84.62% 1 Shortstop New York Giants (NL) 1890-1909 20 Living – Age 65 44
Ed Delahanty 1908 96.00% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1903 16 Deceased (1867-1903) Deceased
Larry Doyle 1926 76.00% 2 Second Base New York Giants (NL) 1907-1920 14 Living - Age 49 40
Hugh Duffy 1918 75.00% 8 Center Field/Outfield Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1888-1901, 1904-1906 17 Living – Age 69 52
Buck Ewing 1902 83.33% 1 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Deceased (1859-1906) 43
Elmer Flick 1916 80.00% 1 Right Field Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1898-1910 13 Living – Age 59 40
Pud Galvin 1903 80.77% 3 Pitcher Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1875, 1879-1892 15 Deceased (1856-1902) Deceased
Jack Glasscock 1911 84.00% 11 Shortstop Cleveland Blues (NL) 1879-1895 17 Living – Age 78 54
George Gore 1909 77.27% 9 Center Field Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1879-1892 14 Deceased (1857-1933) 52
Hughie Jennings 1927 75.00% 14 Shortstop Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1891-1903, 1907, 1909, 1912, 1918 17 Deceased (1869-1928) 58
Walter Johnson 1932 100% 1 Pitcher Washington Senators (AL) 1907-1927 21 Living - Age 48 45
Addie Joss 1929 76.00% 15 Pitcher Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1902-1910 9 Deceased (1880-1911) Deceased
Billy Hamilton 1906 82.61% 1 Center Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1901 14 Living – Age 69 40
Paul Hines 1904 76.00% 4 Center Field Providence Grays (NL) 1872-1891 20 Deceased (1855-1935) 49
Tim Keefe 1901 75.00% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1893 14 Deceased (1857-1933) 44
Willie Keeler 1916 92.00% 2 Right Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1892-1910 19 Deceased (1872-1923) 44
Joe Kelley 1920 84.62% 8 Left Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1891-1906, 1908 17 Living – Age 64 49
King Kelly 1902 75.00% 2 Right Field/Catcher Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1878-1893 16 Deceased (1857-1894) Deceased
Napoleon Lajoie 1921 96.77% 1 Second Base Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1896-1916 21 Living – Age 61 47
Herman Long* 1925 (VC) 75.00% VC Shortstop Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1889-1904 16 Deceased (1866-1909) Deceased
Sherry Magee 1924 86.21% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1904-1919 16 Deceased (1884-1929) 40
Christy Mathewson 1922 93.55% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1900-1916 17 Deceased (1880-1925) 41
Joe McGinnity 1913 91.30% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1899-1908 10 Deceased (1871-1929) 42
Bid McPhee 1905 75.00% 2 Second Base Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1882-1899 18 Living – Age 76 46
Cal McVey*^ 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Catcher/First Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879 9 Deceased (1849-1926) 71
Tony Mullane 1908 80.00% 8 Pitcher Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1881-1894 14 Living – Age 75 49
Kid Nichols 1911 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1890-1901, 1904-1906 15 Living – Age 66 42
Jim O’Rourke 1901 90.00% 1 Left Field/Utility New York Giants (NL) 1872-1893, 1904 23 Deceased (1850-1919) 51
Dickey Pearce*^ 1920 (VC) 100% VC Shortstop Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) 1871-1877 7 Deceased (1836-1908) Deceased
Lip Pike*^ 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Center Field Baltimore Canaries (NA) 1871-1878, 1881, 1887 10 Deceased (1845-1893) Deceased
Eddie Plank 1922 92.86% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1901-1917 17 Deceased (1875-1926) 47
Charley Radbourn 1901 95.00% 1 Pitcher Providence Grays (NL) 1881-1891 11 Deceased (1854-1897) Deceased
Hardy Richardson* 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC Second Base/Left Field Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1892 14 Deceased (1855-1931) 65
Amos Rusie 1906 78.26% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1889-1895, 1897-1898, 1901 10 Living – Age 64 35
Jimmy Ryan* 1930 (VC) 86.67% VC Center Field Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1885-1900, 1902-1903 18 Deceased (1885-1923) Deceased
Al Spalding^ 1915 80.00% 15 Pitcher Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1878 8 Deceased (1850-1915) Deceased
Tris Speaker 1933 100% 1 Center Field Cleveland Indians (AL) 1907-1928 22 Living - Age 47 45
Joe Start*^ 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC First Base Providence Grays (NL) 1871-1886 16 Deceased (1842-1927) 78
Harry Stovey 1907 75.00% 7 Left Field/First Base Philadelphia Athletics (AA) 1880-1893 14 Living – Age 79 51
Ezra Sutton* 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Third Base Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1871-1888 18 Deceased (1850-1907) Deceased
Sam Thompson 1907 79.17% 5 Right Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1885-1898, 1906 15 Deceased (1860-1922) 47
George Van Haltren 1918 75.00% 11 Center Field New York Giants (NL) 1887-1903 17 Living – Age 69 52
Rube Waddell 1915 84.00% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1897, 1899-1910 13 Deceased (1876-1914) Deceased
Honus Wagner 1922 92.86% 1 Shortstop Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1897-1917 21 Living – Age 61 48
Bobby Wallace 1925 75.00% 3 Shortstop St. Louis Browns (AL) 1894-1918 25 Living - Age 62 52
Ed Walsh 1922 89.29% 1 Pitcher Chicago White Sox (AL) 1904-1917 14 Living – Age 54 41
John Ward 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop/Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1878-1894 17 Deceased (1860-1925) 47
Mickey Welch* 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1892 13 Living – Age 76 61
Zack Wheat 1932 87.50% 1 Left Field Brooklyn Robins (Dodgers) (NL) 1909-1927 19 Living - Age 47 44
Deacon White^ 1904 76.00% 4 Catcher/Third Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1871-1890 20 Living – Age 88 57
Vic Willis 1919 77.78% 5 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1898-1910 13 Living – Age 59 43
George Wright^ 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1882 12 Living – Age 88 60
Cy Young 1916 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1890-1911 22 Living – Age 68 49

* = Elected by Veterans Committee
^ = Played Significantly Prior to 1871

Players Elected by Primary Position
Catcher (5): Charlie Bennett, Roger Bresnahan, Buck Ewing, Cal McVey, Deacon White
First Base (6): Cap Anson, Jake Beckley, Dan Brouthers, Frank Chance, Roger Connor, Joe Start
Second Base (6): Ross Barnes, Cupid Childs, Larry Doyle, Napoleon Lajoie, Bid McPhee, Hardy Richardson
Third Base (3): Frank Baker, Jimmy Collins, Ezra Sutton
Shortstop (10): Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Jack Glasscock, Hughie Jennings, Herman Long, Dickey Pearce, Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace, John Ward, George Wright
Left Field (8): Jesse Burkett, Fred Clarke, Ed Delahanty, Joe Kelley, Sherry Magee, Jim O'Rourke, Harry Stovey, Zack Wheat
Center Field (11): Pete Browning, Max Carey, Ty Cobb, Hugh Duffy, George Gore, Billy Hamilton, Paul Hines, Lip Pike, Jimmy Ryan, Tris Speaker, George Van Haltren
Right Field (5): Sam Crawford, King Kelly, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Sam Thompson
Pitcher (21): Mordecai Brown, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Stan Coveleski, Pud Galvin, Walter Johnson, Addie Joss, Tim Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Tony Mullane, Kid Nichols, Eddie Plank, Charley Radbourn, Amos Rusie, Al Spalding, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh, Mickey Welch, Vic Willis, Cy Young

Players Elected by Year
1901 (5): Dan Brouthers, John Clarkson, Tim Keefe, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn
1902 (4): Cap Anson, Roger Connor, Buck Ewing, King Kelly
1903 (1): Pud Galvin
1904 (2): Paul Hines, Deacon White
1905 (1): Bid McPhee
1906 (2): Billy Hamilton, Amos Rusie
1907 (5): Charlie Bennett, Harry Stovey, Sam Thompson, John Ward, George Wright
1908 (2): Ed Delahanty, Tony Mullane
1909 (3): Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, George Gore
1910 (1): Jesse Burkett
1911 (3): Ross Barnes, Jack Glasscock, Kid Nichols
1912 (0):
1913 (2): Jimmy Collins, Joe McGinnity
1914 (1): George Davis
1915 (2): Al Spalding, Rube Waddell
1916 (4): Bill Dahlen, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Cy Young
1917 (2): Jake Beckley, Fred Clarke
1918 (2): Hugh Duffy, George Van Haltren
1919 (1): Vic Willis
1920 (2): Cupid Childs, Joe Kelley
- 1920 VC (7): Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Hardy Richardson, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Mickey Welch
1921 (3): Mordecai Brown, Napoleon Lajoie, Christy Mathewson
1922 (4): Sam Crawford, Eddie Plank, Honus Wagner, Ed Walsh
1923 (0):
1924 (1): Sherry Magee
1925 (2): Roger Bresnahan, Bobby Wallace
- 1925 VC (1): Herman Long
1926 (1): Larry Doyle
1927 (2): Frank Baker, Hughie Jennings
1928 (0):
1929 (1): Addie Joss
1930 (0):
- 1930 VC (1): Jimmy Ryan
1931 (0):
1932 (3): Frank Chance, Walter Johnson, Zack Wheat
1933 (2): Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker
1934 (2): Max Carey, Stan Coveleski

Players Elected by Primary Decade
1870s (9): Ross Barnes, Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Al Spalding, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Deacon White, George Wright
1880s (21): Cap Anson, Charlie Bennett, Dan Brouthers, Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Roger Conner, Buck Ewing, Pud Galvin, Jack Glasscock, George Gore, Paul Hines, Tim Keefe, King Kelly, Tony Mullane, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn, Hardy Richardson, Harry Stovey, John Ward, Mickey Welch
1890s (17): Jake Beckley, Jesse Burkett, Cupid Childs, Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Ed Delahanty, Hugh Duffy, Billy Hamilton, Hughie Jennings, Joe Kelley, Herman Long, Bid McPhee, Kid Nichols, Jimmy Ryan, Amos Rusie, Sam Thompson, George Van Haltren
1900s (19): Roger Bresnahan, Mordecai Brown, Frank Chance, Fred Clarke, Jimmy Collins, Sam Crawford, Elmer Flick, Addie Joss, Willie Keeler, Napoleon Lajoie, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Eddie Plank, Rube Waddell, Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace, Ed Walsh, Vic Willis, Cy Young
1910s (9): Frank Baker , Max Carey, Ty Cobb, Larry Doyle, Walter Johnson, Sherry Magee, Tris Speaker, Zack Wheat
1920s (1): Stan Coveleski

Players Elected by Primary Organization
Baltimore Canaries (NA) (1): Lip Pike
Baltimore Orioles (NL) (3): Hughie Jennings, Willie Keeler, Joe Kelley
Boston Braves (fka Beaneaters) (NL) (6): John Clarkson, Hugh Duffy, Herman Long, Kid Nichols, Ezra Sutton, Vic Willis
Boston Red Sox (fka Americans) (AL) (2): Jimmy Collins, Cy Young
Boston Red Stockings (NA) (4): Ross Barnes, Cal McVey, Al Spalding, George Wright
Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) (1): Dickey Pearce
Brooklyn Dodgers (fka Robins) (1): Zack Wheat
Buffalo Bisons (NL) (4): Dan Brouthers, Pud Galvin, Hardy Richardson, Deacon White
Chicago Cubs (fka White Stockings, Colts) (NL) (7): Cap Anson, Mordecai Brown, Frank Chance, Bill Dahlen, George Gore, King Kelly, Jimmy Ryan
Chicago White Sox (AL) (1): Ed Walsh
Cincinnati Reds (NL, AA) (2): Bid McPhee, Tony Mullane
Cleveland Blues (NL) (1): Jack Glasscock
Cleveland Indians (fka Naps) (AL) (5): Stan Coveleski, Elmer Flick, Addie Joss, Napoleon Lajoie, Tris Speaker
Cleveland Spiders (NL) (2): Jesse Burkett, Cupid Childs
Detroit Tigers (AL) (2): Ty Cobb, Sam Crawford
Detroit Wolverines (NL) (1): Charlie Bennett
Louisville Colonels (NL, AA) (1): Pete Browning
New York Giants (NL) (13): Roger Bresnahan, Roger Connor, George Davis, Larry Doyle, Buck Ewing, Tim Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Jim O’Rourke, Amos Rusie, George Van Haltren, John Ward, Mickey Welch
Philadelphia Athletics (AL) (3): Frank Baker, Eddie Plank, Rube Waddell
Philadelphia Athletics (AA) (1): Harry Stovey
Philadelphia Phillies (NL) (4): Ed Delahanty, Billy Hamilton, Sherry Magee, Sam Thompson
Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) (4): Jake Beckley, Max Carey, Fred Clarke, Honus Wagner
Providence Grays (NL) (3): Paul Hines, Charley Radbourn, Joe Start
St. Louis Browns (AL) (1): Bobby Wallace
St. Louis Cardinals (fka Browns) (NL, AA) (1): Bob Caruthers
Washington Senators (AL) (1): Walter Johnson


Miscellaneous Information
- Highest Regular Election Percentage: Cap Anson, Walter Johnson, Kid Nichols, Tris Speaker, Cy Young – 100%
- Number of 1st Ballot Electees: 34
- Number of Electees with At Least 90% Support: 21
- Average Regular Election Percentage: 84.45%
- Most Years on Ballot Before Election: Cupid Childs, Addie Joss, Al Spalding – 15
- Number of Players Elected After 10 Years on Ballot: 8
- Average Wait Before Election: 4.05 Years
- Number of Players Lasting 15 Years on Ballot without Election: 20
- Number of Players Elected by Veterans Committee: 9
- Average Electees per Veterans Committee Election: 3
- Highest Percentage Among Players Not Elected: Heinie Groh - 66.67% (1932)
- Highest Average Percentage Among Players Not Elected: Heinie Groh - 60.85%
- Most Regular Election Electees in One Year: 5 (1901, 1907)
- Fewest Regular Election Electees in One Year: 0 (1912, 1923, 1928, 1930, 1931)
- Average Regular Election Electees Per Year: 2
- Largest Ballot: 78 Players (1901)
- Largest Post-1915 Ballot: 47 Players (1932)
- Smallest Ballot: 23 Players (1918)
- Most Votes Cast: 32 (1931)
- Fewest Votes Cast: 20 (1901)
- Average Votes Cast: 25.55
- Team With Most Players Elected: New York Giants - 13
- Team With Second Most Players Elected: Chicago Cubs - 7
- Electee with Longest Post-1871 Career: Cap Anson – 27 Seasons
- Electee with Shortest Post-1871 Career: Dickey Pearce – 8 Seasons
- Average Post-1871 Career Length of Electees: 16.01 Seasons
- Youngest Elected Player: Amos Rusie – Age 35
- Oldest Elected Player: Joe Start – 78
- Average Age at Election: 48.07
- Number of Posthumously Elected Players: 15
- Number of Living Hall of Famers: 38
- Oldest Living Hall of Famer: Deacon White, George Wright - 88
- Deceased in Past Year: Paul Hines

Number of Ballots Submitted in Past Elections
1901: 20
1902: 24
1903: 26
1904: 25
1905: 24
1906: 23
1907: 24
1908: 25
1909: 22
1910: 25
1911: 25
1912: 23
1913: 23
1914: 26
1915: 25
1916: 25
1917: 25
1918: 24
1919: 27
1920: 26
1921: 31
1922: 28
1923: 25
1924: 29
1925: 24
1926: 25
1927: 28
1928: 27
1929: 25
1930: 25
1931: 32
1932: 24
1933: 29
1934: 28

Links to Past Elections (10)
1901 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77167)
1902 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77464)
1903 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77797)
1904 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78133)
1905 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78417)
1906 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78737)
1907 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79020)
1908 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79393)
1909 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79738)
1910 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80134)
1911 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80597)
1912 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81008)
1913 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81477)
1914 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81965)
1915 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82365)
1916 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82681)
1917 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82940)
1918 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83241)
1919 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83422)
1920 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83665), 1920 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83697)
1921 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83924)
1922 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84099)
1923 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84257)
1924 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84423)
1925 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84552), 1925 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84636)
1926 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84727)
1927 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84871)
1928 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85029)
1929 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85206)
1930 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85358), 1930 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85439)
1931 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85681)
1932 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85850)
1933 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86054)
1934 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86291)

[leecemark]

--The arrival of some real greatness on the ballot has me scaling back a little. Borderliners Del Pratt and Johny Evers don't belong on the same ballot as Eddie Collins. Pete Alexander chased all the borderline pitchers off the ballot. Went down from a full slate to 8 players this year (half of them first timers). Please give your consideration to Tommy Leach - a terrific player whose time is running out - and Henie Groh - quite possibly the 2nd best thirdbaseman in history (after Frank Baker).

Pete Alexander, SP - should be unanimous
Dave Bancroft, SS - around of standard for SS and at least deserves consideration
Eddie Collins, 2B - slam dunk
Wilbur Cooper, SP - 2nd best pitcher on ballot and being 2nd to Grover is no Heinie Groh, 3B - would easily meet 3B standards if we had established Tommy Leach, 3B/CF - great defender at 3B and CF and a very good
Ray Schalk, C - longevity and defense #1 amoung catchers(
George Sisler, 1B - terrific peak

[jjpm74]

I accidentally checked off Hippo Vaughn. I meant to check off Bobby Veach. Sorry for the mistake.

[jjpm74]

My ballot:

Pete Alexander--No Brainer
Eddie Collins--No Brainer
Wilbur Cooper--DERA and WS puts him well within our parameters
Heinie Groh--The best 3rd baseman of his generation and one of the best of this era.
Tommy Leach--2 positions played at the top level of play coupled with great offense.
Bob Meusel--1st year pass. Not someone I plan on voting for again next year.
Ray Schalk--Possibly the best defensive catcher we've ever seen.
Urban Shocker--Seems to fit our standards
George Sisler--No Brainer
Bobby Veach--Peak and OPS+ seem to put him over the hump.
Cy Williams--Close to our standards and one of the first lively ball era power hitters we've seen on a ballot.

I'd like to hear more on Dave Bancroft. He's very close for me. Next year, I will likely give Chief Bender a 15th year nod as he is also very close for me.

[PVNICK]

Alexander
Bender
Collins
Evers
Groh
Leach
Shocker
Sisler
Vaughn

Added Vaughn to last years ballot plus the three newcomers Alexander, Collins and Sisler.

[KCGHOST]

Alexander
E. Collins
Shocker
Sisler

[Domenic]

Alexander
Collins
Cooper
Cravath
Groh
Leach
Sisler
Veach

[DoubleX]

Pete Alexander and Eddie Collins are no brainers. Alexander is one of the two or three best pitchers ever and Collins might be the best 2Bman ever, and certainly one of the top three.

George Sisler is also a no brainer to me. Mark made an excellent post on Sisler in the last election, and I know that's coming from someone who is not a big Sisler fan in general. To best assess Sisler, we have to remember he played before Gehrig and Foxx basically changed what we expect from 1B.

Leach's time is running out. I think he'll stand a good chance with the VC. There's hope for Groh though, as there is still a lot of time and he's doing pretty well thus far.

I'm really struggling with Dave Bancroft and Cy Williams. I decided to vote for both to get some extra time to think about both. I think Bancroft is very close, if not at our standards at SS, and he may have stood out more in his era than some of the shortstops we've elected from earlier eras (though I need to do more research on that). At the very least, I think he's worth some extended consideration.

Cy Williams was one of the first and best of the new breed of homerun hitters. The first player in the NL to hit at least 200 career homeruns, and with Hornsby, was the premier homerun threat in the NL for a decade. He had a career 125 OPS+ while playing CF, and that by itself would seemingly qualify for our lower CF standards. On the flipside, his career wasn't especially long, (7720 PA), he wasn't a particularly dynamic player, didn't really drive in runs like you'd expect from a power hitter, and he played in the Baker Bowl. I think I've actually convinced myself to not vote for him in the future, but would welcome more conversation on him.

I'm still voting for Johnny Evers, Del Pratt, and Bobby Veach, but all our fill out the bottom of my ballot and I view all pretty borderline anyway.

[Brooklyn]

Alexander
Collins
Sisler

[Paul Wendt]

My recent explanation for Bender, Doak, and Gowdy hints why I will repeat only the Bender vote. These are specialty considerations of different kinds.

1934
>>
Bill Doak was one of the spitball pitchers permitted to continue his specialty after 1920. More important, when he ordered from Rawlings for the 1920 season he introduced the web between thumb and forefinger that everyone soon adopted in some form. They say Doak earns "a sizeable income" from the Bill Doak glove to this day.

Hank Gowdy enlisted in 1917 and spent all of the 1918 season in military service. Afterward he split the catcher's role for another seven seasons in the majors. Since then he has remained in the game as a coach for the Braves.

This year I have cast a vote for Chief Bender at last. If 74% of the voters want to honor him as the first native Indian star, I will go along with that.
<<

to be continued
done.

Alexander
Bancroft
Bender
E. Collins
W. Cooper
Cravath
Evers
Groh
Konetchy
Leach
Pratt
Schalk
Shocker
Sisler
Tinker


Paul: Bancroft, Konetchy, Pratt, Schalk
Freak: Burns, Hooper, Mays, Veach

[jalbright]

Pete Alexander
Eddie Collins
Wilbur Cooper
Heinie Groh
Tommy Leach
Carl Mays
George Sisler

[Cowtipper]

Pete Alexander
George Burns
Eddie Collins
Gavvy Cravath
Jack Fournier
Heinie Groh
Ed Konetchy
Tommy Leach
Carl Mays
Del Pratt
George Sisler
Bobby Veach

No longer on my ballot are Wilbur Cooper, Stan Coveleski, Urban Shocker and Hippo Vaughn. Additions to my ballot are Pete Alexander, Eddie Collins, Jack Fournier, Heinie Groh, Tommy Leach, Del Pratt and George Sisler.

[AstrosFan]

Alexander
Collins
Groh
Leach
Sisler

[leecemark]

--Someone didn't vote for Pete Alexander. I guessing it was that young punk Corky Simpson:D.

[philkid3]

Because of the Holidays (which lasted three years), on the last few elections I haven't given the hard looks I normally would, and I've only voted for who I think is obvious.

I'm going to take my time on this ballot and revisit those years. Any arguments anyone think I really need to take a look at?

[bambambaseball]

I'm going to take my time on this ballot and revisit those years. Any arguments anyone think I really need to take a look at?

The ones about Heinie Groh and Tommy Leach. The clock is ticking on Tommy Leach and he deserved to get elected.

[PVNICK]

Leach generated a lot of commentery in his first five years, back in the early to mid 1920s, if that helps steer you.

[Freakshow]

Carey and Coveleski were elected. Konetchy drops off. They were replaced by newbies Alexander, Collins and Sisler.

Alexander
Bender
GJ Burns
E. Collins
W. Cooper
Cravath
Evers
Groh
Hooper
Leach
Mays
Shocker
Sisler
Tinker
Veach

[philkid3]

The ones about Heinie Groh and Tommy Leach. The clock is ticking on Tommy Leach and he deserved to get elected.

I've voted for both all along.

[SavoyBG]

I went for Collins, Alexander, Groh and Mays, although my support for Mays is waning.

I'm not ready to vote for Sisler or Bancroft yet, although I will consider them next year.

Sisler does not compare very favorably to Groh. Especially when you look at "peak," which is supposed to be the big argument for inducting Sisler:

WIN SHARES TOP THREE SEASONS
Groh - 37-30-28
Sisler - 33-29-29

WIN SHARES TOP 5 CONSECUTIVE SEASONS
Groh - 147
Sisler - 135

Supposedly the big argument for Sisler is seven consecutive great seasons. Let's see how he compares to Groh:

WIN SHARES TOP 7 CONSECUTIVE SEASONS
Groh - 191
Sisler - 189

[SavoyBG]

Looks like Groh's vote will be very close so I want to repeat this post from last year's elections:

I'm gonna give Groh another long look.

Win shares - 271 - he's on the fringe at the bottom of career value for a hall of fame position player, just 2 win shares behind Jimmy Collins though.

Win shares per 162 - 26.19 - An excellent figure that is better than Jimmy Collins (25.59) or Leach (24.72).

Win shares peak - best 3 years - 37, 30, 28 - clearly better than Leach and better than Collins here too.

Win shares peak - best 5 consecutive years - 147 - An outstanding total that puts Collins (129) and Leach (122) away.

Groh also had a super low error rate and is easily the career leader in fielding percentage at 3B at .967. Nobody else is even close. He never made more than 18 errors in a season at 3B, which is incredible considering that Jimmy Collins made over 40 errors in a season several times and even made 50 errors one year. Leach made 60 or more errors at 3B in two different seasons.

POST SEASON
Considering that half of the pitchers were trying to let him hit the ball in the 1919 series, Groh did very badly (5 for 29) and he also didn't do well in 1923 (4 for 22) but he was the star of the 1922 series (9 for 19 with 4 runs scored).

For what it's worth, TPR has Groh at 30.4, which is low end hall of fame level for their system. Collins is only at 23.0 and Leach is really low in their sytem, at 12.0. TPR ranks Groh as the best player in the NL in 1916 and 1918. That 30.0 in TPR makes Groh almost a top 20 position player of all time to this point. I think he's like # 22, and is just a slight bit below Baker for the top thirdbaseman of all time.

I had forgotten about Groh's incredible error numbers. There is no player in the history of the game to this point who was less error prone for his position than Groh. At 3B Groh fielded .967, Collins fielded .929 and Leach fielded .909. That's an astounding difference.

I think he's clearly a better player than Leach, who was too inconsistent from year to year. Groh is just in, Leach is out, the way I see it. Maybe the VC will get Leach in someday. I hope not.

[KCGHOST]

I suspect some Democrat left Alexander off his ballot because Ronald Reagan played him the movie. :D

[AstrosFan]

It doesn't have to be about politics. The guy could be offended by Reagan's bad acting.:laugh

[DoubleX]

I suspect some Democrat left Alexander off his ballot because Ronald Reagan played him the movie. :D

That's odd, Reagan is a democrat (Reagan didn't switch to the Republican party until the '60s).

[STLCards2]

Alexander
Collins
Sisler
Groh

[mwiggins]

Collins
Alexander
Sisler
Groh
Leach
Youngs

[SavoyBG]

Only one vote for Meusel so far.

[SavoyBG]

I thought this might help put some players in perspective:

Using total win shares for each player in each decade I
put together first, second and third team all-star teams for
each decade. The only subjectivity involved here is when
there's a plyer who played a significant amount of time at
more than one position or a player who split time in a decade
fairly evenly between two diiferent leagues.
In that case I have to decide which position to place certain players
at, or which league to place them in . Other than that the
teams are entirely objective based solely on total win shares
accumulated by each player in each decade.



1876-1879
FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM THIRD TEAM
C - Deacon White John Clapp Lew Brown
1B - Cal McVey Joe Start John Morrill
2B - Jack Burdock Ross Barnes Joe Gerhardt
3B - Cap Anson Bob Ferguson King Kelly
SS - George Wright John Peters Ezra Sutton
LF - Charley Jones Tom York Andy Leonard
CF - Paul Hines Lip Pike Jack Remsen
RF - Jim O'Rourke Jack Manning Orator Shaffer
P - Tommy Bond Terry Larkin Monte Ward
P - Jim Devlin George Bradley Will White


1880-1889
FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM THIRD TEAM
C - Buck Ewing Charlie Bennett Jack Rowe
1B - Roger Connor Dan Brouthers Cap Anson
2B - Hardy Richardson Fred Dunlap Bid McPhee
3B - Ned Williamson Ezra Sutton Arlie Latham
SS - Jack Glasscock Monte Ward Tom Burns
LF - Harry Stovey Tip O'Neill George Wood/Abner Daltrymple (tie)
CF - George Gore Paul Hines Pete Browning
RF - King Kelly Jim O'Rourke Chicken Wolf
P - Tim Keefe Pud Galvin Jim Whitney
P - Old Hoss Radbourne Jim McCormick Bob Caruthers
P - Mickey Welch Tony "Count" Mullane John Clarkson


1890-1899
FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM THIRD TEAM
C - Duke Farrell Deacon McGuire Chief Zimmer
1B - Jake Beckley Dan Brouthers Roger Connor
2B - Cupid Childs Bid McPhee Bobby Lowe
3B - George Davis John McGraw Bill Joyce
SS - Bill Dahlen Herman Long Hughie Jennings
LF - Ed Delahanty Jesse Burkett Joe Kelley
CF - Billy Hamilton George Van Haltren Mike Griffin
RF - Hugh Duffy Mike Tiernan Jimmy Ryan
P - Kid Nichols Jack Stivetts Frank Dwyer
P - Cy Young Bill Hutchison Nig Cuppy
P - Amos Rusie Ted Breitenstein Pink Hawley


NATIONAL LEAGUE - 1900-1909
FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM THIRD TEAM
C - Roger Bresnahan Johnny Kling Pat Moran
1B - Frank Chance Fred Tenney Dan McGann
2B - Claude Ritchey Johnny Evers Miller Huggins
3B - Tommy Leach Harry Steinfeldt Art Devlin
SS - Honus Wagner Bill Dahlen Joe Tinker
LF - Fred Clarke Jimmy Sheckard Jimmy Slagle
CF - Roy Thomas Ginger Beaumont Cy Seymour
RF - Mike Donlin John Titus George Browne
P - Christy Mathewson Three Finger Brown Jack Taylor
P - Joe McGinnity Sam Leever Bob Ewing
P - Vic Willis Deacon Phillippe Noodles Hahn


AMERICAN LEAGUE - 1901-1909
FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM THIRD TEAM
C - Ossee Schreckengost Lou Criger Billy Sullivan
1B - Harry Davis Piano Legs Hickman John Anderson
2B - Nap Lajoie Jimmy Williams Danny Murphy
3B - Bill Bradley Jimmy Collins Wid Conroy
SS - Bobby Wallace George Davis Freddy Parent
LF - Topsy Hartsell Patsy Dougherty George Stone
CF - Sam Crawford Fielder Jones Chick Stahl
RF - Elmer Flick Willie Keeler Socks Seybold
P - Cy Young Jack Chesbro Addie Joss
P - Rube Waddell Doc White George Mullin
P - Eddie Plank Jack Powell Bill Dineen


NATIONAL LEAGUE 1910-1919
FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM THIRD TEAM
C - Chief Meyers Art Wilson Bill Rariden
1B - Ed Konetchy Jake Daubert Fred Merkle
2B - Larry Doyle Johnny Evers Miller Huggins/George Cutshaw (tie)
3B - Heinie Zimmerman Heinie Groh Red Smith
SS - Art Fletcher Honus Wagner Buck Herzog
LF - Zack Wheat Sherry Magee George Burns
CF - Dode Paskert Max Carey Benny Kauff
RF - Gavvy Cravath Wildfire Schulte Chief Wilson
P - Grover Cleveland Alexander Claude Hendrix Rube Marquard
P - Hippo Vaughn Christy Mathewson Lefty Tyler
P - Slim Sallee Babe Adams Dick Rudolph


AMERICAN LEAGUE - 1910-1919
FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM THIRD TEAM
C - Ray Schalk Wally Schang Steve O'Neill
1B - Stuffy McInnis Chick Gandil Hal Chase
2B - Eddie Collins Del Pratt Nap Lajoie
3B - Home Run Baker Larry Gardner Eddie Foster
SS - Donie Bush Ray Chapman Buck Weaver
LF - Joe Jackson Duffy Lewis Bobby Veach
CF - Ty Cobb Tris Speaker Clyde Milan
RF - Harry Hooper Sam Crawford Amos Strunk
P - Walter Johnson Smokey Joe Wood Dutch Leonard
P - Ed Cicotte Eddie Plank Ed Walsh
P - Babe Ruth Ray Caldwell Hooks Dauss


NATIONAL LEAGUE - 1920-1929
FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM THIRD TEAM
C - Bob O'Farrell Gabby Hartnett Bubble Hargrave
1B - George Kelly Jim Bottomley Jack Fournier
2B - Rogers Hornsby Frankie Frisch George Grantham
3B - Pie Traynor Andy High Jimmy Johnston
SS - Dave Bancroft Travis Jackson Rabbit Maranville
LF - Zack Wheat Kiki Cuyler Irish Meusel
CF - Ed Roush Max Carey Hack Wilson
RF - Ross Youngs Cy Williams Curt Walker
P - Grover Cleveland Alexander Dolph Luque Jesse Haines
P - Burleigh Grimes Dazzy Vance Bill Sherdel
P - Eppa Rixey Wilbur Cooper Lee Meadows


AMERICAN LEAGUE - 1920-1929
FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM THIRD TEAM
C - Wally Schang Muddy Ruel Mickey Cochrane
1B - Joe Judge George Sisler Lou Gehrig
2B - Eddie Collins Marty McManus Bucky Harris
3B - Jimmy Dykes Willie Kamm Joe Dugan
SS - Joe Sewell Roger Peckinpaugh Wally Gerber
LF - Babe Ruth Goose Goslin Ken Williams
CF - Tris Speaker Ty Cobb Al Simmons
RF - Harry Heilmann Sam Rice Bob Meusel
P - Urban Shocker Herb Pennock Sad Sam Jones
P - Eddie Rommel Waite Hoyt Jack Quinn
P - Red Faber George Uhle Stan Coveleski

[SavoyBG]

The prior post had first, second and third teams for each decade in the 19th century and for each decade for the AL and NL in this century. This post contains first and second team major league all star teams for each decade in this century.

Here are first and second major league all star teams for each decade in the 20th century so far, based solely on total win shares for the decade. Win share totals for each player in ( )

1900-1909
FIRST TEAM / SECOND TEAM
C - Bresnahan (169) / Kling (125)
1B - Chance (206) / Davis (189)
2B - Lajoie (296) / Williams (175)
3B - Leach (215) / Bradley (181)
SS - Wagner (421) / Wallace (202)
LF - Clarke (247) / Sheckard (224)
CF - Crawford (264) / Thomas (230)
RF - Flick (239) / Keeler (172)
P - Young (289) / Waddell (231)
P - Mathewson (275) / Willis (222)
P - McGinnity (234) / Plank (218)


1910-1919
FIRST TEAM / SECOND TEAM
C - Meyers (119) / Schalk (111)
1B - Konetchy (204) / Daubert (182)
2B - Collins (338) / Doyle (225)
3B - Baker (253) / Zimmerman (204)
SS - Fletcher (192) / Bush (182)
LF - Jackson (257) / Wheat (204)
CF - Cobb (386) / Speaker (361)
RF - Hooper (208) / Cravath (186)
P - Johnson (378) / Vaughn (183)
P - Alexander (266) / Sallee (168)
P - Cicotte (196) / Hendrix (167)


1920-1929
FIRST TEAM / SECOND TEAM
C - Schang (137) / Ruel (135)
1B - Judge (179) / Kelly (177)
2B - Hornsby (362) / Frisch (243)
3B - Traynor (176) / Dykes (148)
SS - Sewell (220) / Bancroft (182)
LF - Ruth (413) / Goslin (200)
CF - Speaker (233) / Cobb (195)
RF - Heilmann (263) / Rice (217)
P - Alexander (210) / Luque (191)
P - Grimes (210) / Shocker (182)
P - Rixey (201) / Rommel (182)

[dgarza]

Pete Alexander
Dave Bancroft
Chief Bender
George Burns
Eddie Collins
Gavvy Cravath
Harry Hooper
Rube Marquard
Carl Mays
George Sisler
Joe Tinker
Bobby Veach
Ross Youngs
Cy Williams
Ken Williams

1. Pete Alexander
2. Eddie Collins
3. George Sisler
4. Bobby Veach
5. Carl Mays
6. Gavvy Cravath
7. Chief Bender
8. Ken Williams
9. Cy Williams
10. George J Burns
11. Ross Youngs
12. Dave Bancroft
13. Rube Marquard
14. Harry Hooper
15. Joe Tinker

[Senor Octobre]

Ballot...

Alexander, Pete
Bancroft, Dave
Bender, Chief
Collins, Eddie
Cooper, Wilbur
Groh, Heinie
Hooper, Harry
Leach, Tommy
Mays, Carl
Sisler, George
Veach, Bobby

Added Bender, Cooper and Hooper to my ballot. Bender because he has one election left after this, Cooper and Hooper because I basically came around about them.

First timers Alexander and Collins are no-brainers, and Sisler at least merits some support.

[DoubleX]

The prior post had first, second and third teams for each decade in the 19th century and for each decade for the AL and NL in this century. This post contains first and second team major league all star teams for each decade in this century.

Decades, while useful markers, can also be arbitrary. These teams, while interesting, will leave out players whose peaks may have spanned two decades. Stan Coveleski is probably a good example of this. In the 10 year period from 1917-1926, Coveleski amassed 236 Win Shares, which would likely have earned him a spot on one of these teams. His 236 is higher than anyone in the 1920-1929 block and would be the third highest in the 1910-1919 block (which was all entirely during the deadball era, where pitchers would typically earn more win shares). So Coveleski gets left out in the cold for being a spanning guy.

[SavoyBG]

Decades, while useful markers, can also be arbitrary. These teams, while interesting, will leave out players whose peaks may have spanned two decades. Stan Coveleski is probably a good example of this. In the 10 year period from 1917-1926, Coveleski amassed 236 Win Shares, which would likely have earned him a spot on one of these teams. His 236 is higher than anyone in the 1920-1929 block and would be the third highest in the 1910-1919 block (which was all entirely during the deadball era, where pitchers would typically earn more win shares). So Coveleski gets left out in the cold for being a spanning guy.

Yes, that's going to happen for some players. Coveleski WAS on the third team for the 1920-1929 AL. The full list of these teams goes all the way up through the 1990s, with an extra team listed of the top players who did not make any of the decade teams, the guys who were "span" guys. You can see the full teams here:

http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85777

It does help though to see things like Joe Judge being the top 1Bman of the 1920s. Here's a guy who nobody would ever think of as a hall of famer, yet for a key decade he was baseball's most valuable 1Bman. His raw stats don't look every impressive, but when adjusted for all those years in Griffith, he was a very solid longtime player. Bradley beating Jimmy Collins out at 3B for the 1900-1909 period is telling too, even though it's largely because Collins was terrible in 1908 and didn't play in 1909. Bradley was terrible in 1909, but it does show that he was a pretty big star for that decade, and many thought he was better than Collins at the time.

[DoubleX]

What about mid-decade leaders, like 1905-1914. Is that something that could be easily gathered? I'm curious to see how it might differ from the standard decade leaders.

[SavoyBG]

What about mid-decade leaders, like 1905-1914. Is that something that could be easily gathered?

Unfortunately not, as the book lists leaders by decade. You'd have to go through all of the individual seasons and add up totals by hand to get mid-decade teams.

[Ubiquitous]

I think doing 10 year period filters is certainly useful in finding overlooked players. But it need not be confined to calendar decades. Joe Judge is a good player that has gotten overlooked but due to the luck of his birth he happens to hit his peak at a start of a decade and had the good fortune to end his career in a fluky offensive environment. Judge kind of reminds me of Mark Grace. Light hitting defensive first basemen with decent OBP which had the good fortune of having a career fit in nicely with a decade. Mark Grace goes down as the player with the most hits in the 90's though that largely means nothing.


Here's a guy who nobody would ever think of as a hall of famer, yet for a key decade he was baseball's most valuable 1Bman.

I think both are a bit tenous. Judge was certainly valuable. Any player that can be an above average player for many seasons is valuable but Judge (without looking it up to be totally sure) was never the most valuable first basemen in the 20's at any point of time. Somebody like Sisler was more valuable in the beginning, Lou Gehrig in the middle and end with Foxx joining him at the end and Jack Fournier in the middle.

Okay I did a quick check and Judge was never the best first basemen and it was never close. Judge was always solidly 4th through 6th best first basemen except for two periods when he was 9th best in OPS+

[mwiggins]

Mark Grace goes down as the player with the most hits in the 90's though that largely means nothing.



Much like Jack Morris and his most wins in the 1980's largely means nothing.

[vtbub]

Heh, I'm the modern day grinch.

Shocker
Sisler
Wood

[jjpm74]

Both Heinie Groh and Tommy Leach are on the bubble and could use some support. Please look back through some earlier threads regarding Tommy Leach if you're on the fence here. He is in his 14th year on the ballot and fits well within our current standards.

[jjpm74]

Heh, I'm the modern day grinch.

Shocker
Sisler
Wood

Just curious why you'd pick those three and not Eddie Collins and Pete Alexander? You have the space for them and neither one had any character issues or any other reason I can see to justify a non-vote.

[vtbub]

Just curious why you'd pick those three and not Eddie Collins and Pete Alexander? You have the space for them and neither one had any character issues or any other reason I can see to justify a non-vote.

I goofed on Collins. He should have had my vote. I voted for Carl Mays as well. Aside for the gaudy win total, Alexander looked more like a collector of stats, like Sutton and John as supposed to Mathewson and Johnson who owned the time period. He'll get in without my vote, but I clicked on submit a couple seconds too quick.

[mwiggins]

Aside for the gaudy win total, Alexander looked more like a collector of stats, like Sutton and John as supposed to Mathewson and Johnson who owned the time period. He'll get in without my vote, but I clicked on submit a couple seconds too quick.


Alexander came pretty much after Matty (Pete started in 1911, Matty was done by 1915), and Johnson was in the other league. He did compile a lot of stats, but he was also very dominant. Led the NL in shutouts 7 times; in complete games 6 times; in ERA+ 4 times; in ERA 4 times; in K's 6 times; in K/BB 3 times; in wins 6 times, in WHIP 5 times; and in innings 7 times.

And he won the Triple Crown 3 times. He was a side-armer with great control, an excellent hard sinker, and very good curve that was almost more of a slider in movement.

[Eastvanmungo]

P. Alexander
D. Bancroft
E. Collins
H. Groh
T. Leach
C. Mays
G. Sisler
C. Williams

[Paul Wendt]

Here is another approach to player cohorts, also using the win shares measure. The cohorts are defined by their major league debuts in five-year "half decades" and the leading playes are identified by career win shares (not fixed-timespan win shares).

We have considered many of these players for the hall of fame and the rest of them will come our way soon. The Babe seems to be done and he is the last of them on the field, I believe.
--

During the five seasons 1910-1914 there were 1013 major league debuts, a very high number thanks to the Federal League demand for players. Babe Ruth leads by career win shares with 756 followed by Alexander 476 and Heilmann 356. Here is one all-America team defined by career data, win shares and fielding games.

cWS All-America Team, debuts 1910-1914 (career win shares)
P: Alexander (476), Rixey (315), Faber, Cooper, Jones, Coveleski, Luque, Pennock (240)
C: Schang (245), Schalk (191), O'Neill (152)
1B: Daubert (263), Fournier (231)
2B: Pratt (242), George Cutshaw (140)
SS: Maranville (302), Peckinpaugh (239)
3B: Groh (272), Milt Stock (188)
LF: Burns (290), Veach (265)
CF: Carey (351), Roush (314), Cy Williams (235)
RF: Ruth (756), Heilmann (356)

The next outfielder is down at 180!, shortstop 152!, firstbaseman 203, pitcher 223. So the appearance of surplus at some fielding positions is an illusion for this five-year period. Even at pitcher, there are only three extra man with more than 178 cws.

Here are all other players with 180 cws: Bob Shawkey p, Hooks Dauss p, Wally Pipp 1b, GT Burns 1b (200), Joe Bush p, Duffy Lewis lf.

Maranville, Groh, and Stock played more than 3.0, 2.0, and 1.5 full seasons equivalent at secondbase. Buck Weaver is the next shortstop at 152 and he played almost three seasons at thirdbase. Eddie Foster is the next thirdbaseman at 171 and he played almost two seasons at secondbase. A real win shares team might "cut Cutshaw" and cover secondbase or Cutshaw and Stock in favor of Weaver and/or Foster.

Now construct two 16-man traveling teams comprising these 32 players.

[Paul Wendt]

During the five seasons 1905-1909 there were 608 major league debuts. Here are the numbers of career win shares for the leaders by fielding position. This covers 28 players with 180 cws.

debut 1905-1909, career win shares
P: 560, 287, 247, 243, 208, 206, 205, 193#, 189
C:
1B: 287, 231, 227, 191
2B: 574, 289
SS: 232, 218
3B: 301, 258*, 214*
LF: 380, 294
CF: 722, 630, 266, 227
RF: 321, 202

Joe Wood(#) played almost three full seasons outfield games, double his number of pitcher games. Otherwise, except players at two outfield positions, merely one of these men played barely two full seasons at a second fielding positoin and merely one more played barely one full season at a second fieldpos (*).

How many of us can name most of the 28 players?

A real win shares team, or two streamlined traveling teams, must dip into the "pool" of catchers: cws 129, 113, 90, 89, 87, 71, ...

Two traveling teams would desperately need an eighth man to cover third-short-second. Probably he would be Buck Herzog, 171 cws in three full seasons at each.

[Paul Wendt]

During the five seasons 1900-1904, there were only 484 major league debuts. Here are the numbers of career win shares for the leaders by fielding position. This table covers the 18! players with 180 cws.

debut 1900-1904, career win shares
P: 425, 361, 296, 265, 255, 235, 231, 198, 191 [9 pitchers]
C:
1B:
2B: 268, 222, 215*
SS: 258
3B: 198
LF: 354, 187
CF:
RF: 239, 201

* One man worked about six and four full seasons at two fielding positions. Otherwise not one of these few cws leaders worked even one full season equivalent at a second fieldpos.

To get 30 players we must take everyone with 140 cws, namely the 12 men represented here.

P: 169, 163, 151, 148
C: 155
1B:
2B: 149**
SS: 171**
3B: 157*, 153**
LF: 148, 146
CF: 158**
RF:

** At least one full season equivalent fielding both a second and a third fieldpos.

six leading catchers: 155, 91, 77, 74, 73, 55

--
During the five seasons 1895-1899 there were only 372 major league debuts, namely National League debuts. Here are the numbers of career win shares for the leaders by fielding position. This covers 34 players with 180 cws.

debut 1895-1899, career win shares
P: 293, 287, 269, 243, 240, 212, 209, 206, 202, 200, 183 [11 pitchers]
C: 231*
1B: 238, 237*, 183
2B: 496*, 207*, 205*
SS: 655***, 184*
3B: 274, 208*, 191
LF: 339, 223, 180*
CF: 328*, 290, 272, 260, 229, 211
RF: 446, 291

* Ten of these players worked at least one full season equivalent fielding games at at least one other fieldpos (one at three other fieldpos ***).

six leading catchers: 231*, 98, 92, 89, 78, 77

[Paul Wendt]

Here are a few summary statistics for the 1890-1894 and earlier debuts.

seasons : debuts , cWS >= 180
1890-1894 : 445 , 25 inclg 9 pitchers
1885-1889 : 348 , 25 inclg 6 pitchers
1880-1884 : 590 , 26 inclg 12 pitchers
1875-1879 : 207 , 9 inclg 3 pitchers
1871-1874 : 243 , 5 inclg 1 pitcher

Regarding the numbers of players who tallied at least 180 career win shares:
- I have no account of win shares before 1876, the first National League season.
- The numbers of win shares available for each team-season doubled between 1876-78 and 1885-87 along with the numbers of championship games. The League scheduled only 60 for each club in 1877-78, the first schedules anywhere, which grew to 126 NL and 140 AA in 1886-87.

[SavoyBG]

cWS All-America Team, debuts 1910-1914 (career win shares)
P: Alexander (476), Rixey (315), Faber, Cooper, Jones, Coveleski, Luque, Pennock (240)


I thought is was strange that 6 pitchers all had exactly 240 win shares in their careers. I Guess what you meant was that they all had at least 240. Here's what I have on them:

Faber - 292
Cooper - 266
Coveleski - 245
Jones - 245
Luque - 241
Pennock - 240

[SavoyBG]

- I have no account of win shares before 1876, the first National League season.


From a thread that you were part of at Baseball Think Factory. Win shares for some of the big stars in the NA, from Chris Cobb - first the actual win shares and then adjusted win shares (adjusted to a later year full season). Then adjusted win shares for each player from 1876 on, and the career adjusted win shares. I guess this is Chris's estimate of each player's career win shares total if they had been playing 154 (or 162) game seasons. Not sure which standard he used.

Player, 1871-1875
Translated WS each season, 1871-1875 -- total
Season adj. WS each season, 1871, 1875 -- total
Other ML seasons played -- total adj. WS for those seasons
Career adj. WS

THE PLAYERS

Cap Anson, 1871-75
4.8, 14.5, 11.2, 10.2, 13 -- 53.7 total
28, 52, 36, 30, 28 -- 174 total
1876-1897 -- 567 adj. WS
741 career

Ross Barnes, 1871-1875
9.8, 17.7, 23.4, 12.5, 23 -- 86.4 total
53, 57, 63, 29,47 -- 249 total
1876 -1881 93 adj. WS
342 career

Dave Eggler, 1871-75
4.9, 13.2, 10.1, 12.7, 12.5 -- 53.4 total
23, 39, 30, 35, 27 -- 154 total adj. WS
1876-1885 -- 31 adj. WS
185 career

Bob Ferguson, 1871-75
2.5, 5.7, 5.3, 5.6, 10.4 -- 29.5 total
12, 25, 16, 16, 20 -- 89 total adj. WS
1876-1884 -- 127 adj. WS
216 career

Davy Force, 1871-75
4.8, 14.5, 10.5, 8.8, 17.4 -- 56.0 total
24, 52, 34, 24, 35 -- 169 total adj. WS
1876-1886 -- 96 adj. WS
265 career

Paul Hines, 1872-75
.23, 5.5, 6.8, 13.3 -- 25.8 total
3.5, 22, 18, 31 -- 75 total adj. WS
1876-91 -- 419 adj. WS
494 career

Charley Jones, 1875
1.3 -- 1.3 total
15 -- 15 total adj. WS
1876-88 --280 adj. WS
295 career (missed two seasons due to blacklisting)

Cal McVey, 1871-1875
9, 7.6, 9.9, 16.6, 25.2 -- 68.3 total
48, 24, 27, 38, 51 -- 188 total adj. WS
1876-1879 -- 132 adj. WS
320 career

Levi Meyerle, 1871-75
10.6, 5.4, 11.2, 12.9, 13.6 -- 53.7 total
57, 19, 33, 35, 31 -- 175 total adj. WS
1876-1878 -- 28 adj. WS
203 career

Jim O'Rourke, 1872-75
2.4, 12.1, 13.0, 15.7 -- 43.2 total
16, 33, 30, 32 -- 111 total adj. WS
1876-93 -- 488 adj. WS
599 career

Dickey Pearce, 1871-75
3.3, 4.0, 6.0, 8.0, 8.4 -- 29.7 total
15, 12, 18, 24, 19 -- 88 total adj. WS
1876-1877 -- 8 adj. WS
96 career

John Peters, 1874-75
6.3, 11.9 -- 18.2 total
19, 28 -- 47 total adj. WS
1876-84 -- 121 adj. WS
168 career

Lip Pike, 1871-1875
7.9, 9.1, 9.3, 14.8, 21.2 -- 62.3 total
43, 33, 27, 44, 49 --196 total adj. WS
1876-78 -- 81 adj. WS
277 career

Al Spalding, 1871-1875 BATTING ONLY
1.8, 7.7, 7.6, 9, 10 -- 36.1 total
10, 25, 21, 21, 20 -- 98 total adj. bWS
1876, 77 -- 25 bWS
123 career bWS

Joe Start, 1871-1875
4.5, 2.9, 3.8, 10.8, 10.9 -- 32.9 total
21, 9, 11, 27, 25 -- 93 total adj. WS
1876-86 -- 244 adj. WS
337 career

Ezra Sutton, 1871-1875
8.4, 2.4, 10.9, 10.1, 17.3 -- 49.1 total
45, 18, 35, 30, 37 -- 165 total adj. WS
1876-1888 -- 273 adj. WS
438 career

Deacon White, 1871-1875
4.5, 3.8, 14.4, 10.3, 23.5 -- 56.5 total
24, 28, 39, 24, 48 -- 163 total adj. WS
1876-90 -- 332 adj. WS
495 career

George Wright, 1871-1875
6.7, 13.5, 20.4, 16.6, 22 -- 79.2 total
36, 43, 55, 38, 45 -- 217 total adj. WS
1876-1882 117 adj. WS
334 career

Harry Wright, 1871-75
3.9, 3.4, 5.8, 6.4, 0 -- 19.5 total
21, 11, 16, 15, 0 -- 63 total adj. WS
63 career

Tom York, 1871-75
2.6, 6.9, 8.7, 5.7, 13.9 -- 37.8 total
14, 22, 25, 17, 26 -- 104 total adj. WS
76-85 -- 221 adj. WS
325 career

If his numbers are accurate then I'll have to eat my words about Ezra Sutton being a bad induction. According to this Sutton would have way over 400 win shares if he had been playing at a time when they were playing full length seasons.

[jalbright]

- I have no account of win shares before 1876, the first National League season.

From a thread that you were part of at Baseball Think Factory. Win shares for some of the big stars in the NA, from Chris Cobb - first the actual win shares and then adjusted win shares (adjusted to a later year full season). Then adjusted win shares for each player from 1876 on, and the career adjusted win shares. I guess this is Chris's estimate of each player's career win shares total if they had been playing 154 (or 162) game seasons. Not sure which standard he used.

Could you point me to which thread that is? I'd be very interested in looking through it. Thanks.

[SavoyBG]

Could you point me to which thread that is? I'd be very interested in looking through it. Thanks.


http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/links_to_positional_threads_from_last_year

[jalbright]

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/links_to_positional_threads_from_last_year

Thanks, and that thread is worth looking at, but what I want to see most is the nuts and bolts of calculating these win shares from TPI for the National Association. If you could point me to that, I'd be most appreciative. Thanks.

[Paul Wendt]

Here is Chris Cobb's introduction to that table. He is [ed.] and I am {Ed.}.
15. Chris Cobb Posted: September 02, 2005 at 09:58 PM (#1594606)
Originally Posted August 30, 2003

Win Share Translations for Selected National Association Players

This posting contains all of the translated win shares that I have calculated, based on the ratios between batting value and fielding value in the WS and WARP systems [according to the WARP1 numbers then in use for these players. Current WARP1 evaluations might be quite different. It might be interesting to see how the WARP evals have changed, if at all—ed. note 10/1/05 {presumably 2005-09-01 --Ed.}]. It includes all of the HoMers who played in the NA, all of the players currently appearing on ballots, and some other notable players of the National Association. Translations do not include any estimates for pitching WS. Al Spalding's listing including batting win shares only.

I posted my methodology for the translations on the McVey - Start thread; it should be findable there {much of it is lost in cyberspace -Ed.}, but I'm happy to address any questions about the translation methods.

Players are arranged alphabetically, but, in order of adjusted WS earned, 1871-75, they are Barnes, G. Wright, Pike, McVey, Meyerle, Anson, Force, Sutton, White, Eggler, O'Rourke, York, Spalding (batting only), Start, Ferguson, Pearce, Hines, H. Wright, Peters, Jones.

FORMAT

Player, 1871-1875
Translated WS each season, 1871-1875 -- total
Season adj. WS each season, 1871, 1875 -- total
Other ML seasons played -- total adj. WS for those seasons
Career adj. WS

What survives from the thread "Start and McVey" provides little more insight on the method.
To see what there is, begin at the preface to win shares estimates for McVey. by Chris Cobb, 2003-07-25 (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/start_and_mcvey#515338). Many contributions to the Hall of Merit, and the latter portions of all longer contributions, were lost during a website reorganization (early 2004?).

The strategy for raw win shares is clear: estimate early Win Shares from early WARP by Clay Davenport, using data on Win Shares and WARP where both are available from James and Davenport, that is beginning 1876.

[Freakshow]

Here is Chris Cobb's introduction to that table. He is [ed.] and I am {Ed.}.


What survives from the thread "Start and McVey" provides little more insight on the method.
To see what there is, begin at the preface to win shares estimates for McVey. by Chris Cobb, 2003-07-25 (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/start_and_mcvey#515338). Many contributions to the Hall of Merit, and the latter portions of all longer contributions, were lost during a website reorganization (early 2004?).

The strategy for raw win shares is clear: estimate early Win Shares from early WARP by Clay Davenport, using data on Win Shares and WARP where both are available from James and Davenport, that is beginning 1876.An Internet Archive (http://web.archive.org/web/20030816135846/www.baseballprimer.com/hom/archives/00000074.shtml) version of "Start and McVey" exists! Here's the sought after posting:

Posted 6:21 p.m., July 23, 2003 (#27) - Chris Cobb
As promised here are career Win Shares for Cal McVey, as derived from WARP1

Year -- Total -- Batting / Fielding -- adj. To 162 games (from)
1871 -- 9 -- 7.8/1.2 -- 48 (30 games)
1872 -- 7.6 -- 4.7/2.9 -- 24 (50 games)
1873 -- 9.9 -- 8.5/1.4 -- 27 (60 games)
1874 -- 16.6 -- 14.7/1.9 -- 38 (70 games)
1875 -- 25.2 -- 20.5/4.7 -- 51 (80 games)
1876 -- 11.6 -- 9.7/1.9 -- 31 (60 games)
1877 -- 11.2 -- 10.7/.5 -- 30 (60 games)
1878 -- 8.8 -- 8.6/.2 -- 22 (60 games)
1879 -- 12.3 -- 9.9/2.4 -- 24 (84 games)
Total -- 121.2 -- 95.1/17.1 -- 295

For 1876-1879, WS itself records 54 WS for McVey (16, 14, 11, 13), which adjust to 136. However, 22 of those are pitching WS, which WARP does not accept. Less the pitching WS, McVey's raw WS are 45, compared to 43.9 derived from WARP. I did this calculation to verify the accuracy of the method, employed on a season-by-season basis. Expanded, the differences come to 114 WS, 107 WARP. I suspect the difference arises from the very low fielding runs WARP gives McVey, which make the conversion into a rough estimate.

Ways of looking at the total
295 -- WARP-derived adj. career WS -- this number should be within 5% of the total that would be arrived at by calculating all McVey's WS directly from the data.
302 -- WARP-derived adj. Career WS 71-75 + adj. WS 76-79
324 -- Pitching added to 302
314 -- No pitching added, but fielding WS in the 302 figure adjusted upward by 30% (my standard pre-1893 adjustment)

I am amused that the estimate I find most accurate -- 314 -- almost exactly matches the rougher estimate that I set out to refine -- 315.

Having given the numbers, I'll explain the method, for those who want to know.

Battting Win Shares

Rather than starting from the WARP1 total, I started from BRAR. WS and WARP are in much closer agreement about batting value than about fielding value.

WARP1 seasonal totals seem to be calculated by summing all batting, fielding, and pitching runs above replacement and multiplying that total by about .103. So BRAR/10 gives a fair approximation of BWARP. If WS and WARP are right, then this should be true Batting WS = (BWARP X 3) + Batting Replacement Level. As far as I can tell, it is. If you divide BRAR by 10 and multiply by 3 for any player season or career, you'll get a number just a bit below batting win shares. That leaves the problem of replacement level. Since replacement level isn't entirely constant, and BRAR and batting WS are not perfectly consistent, this number isn't entirely fixable, but I've found by some trial and error that 3.5 WS / 162 games gives results that are accurate within 5% in all but one case I have tried (that's Sam Thompson -- grist for the mill!). For McVey, I found that replacement level for his 76-79 seasons, as calculable by subtracting his BWAR from his BWS was 3.52, so I used this number in calculations of batting WS for his 71-75 seasons. I am very confident, therefore, that the batting win shares are accurate within 5%. (A while ago I calculated batting WS by hand for the 1875 Red Stockings, so I had a hard number to check that season against. The WS calculated off of BWARP came to 21.5; the WS calculated by hand came to 20.5 -- 5% discrepancy. Since I had the hand-calculated WS number for 1875, I used it).

Fielding Win Shares

Since win shares and WARP do not agree about fielding value, there is no way to predict consistently the ratio of FRAR and fielding win shares. Win shares gives much lower credit for fielding, so I figured that a straight ratio of conversion for McVey's fielding win shares would give a conservative estimate of what actually calculating his fielding WS would reveal. McVey's FWAR for 76-79 are 3.5 . His fielding WS for this period are 4.86. The ratio between them is 1.39. For McVey's 71-75 seasons, I divided his FRAR by 10 and multiplied that number by 1.39. This gives a much lower estimate of McVey's fielding value than WARP does, but I figured that it would be a fairly accurate representation of the numbers that the WS system would actually produce. In rating McVey myself, I (as I have indicated above) multiply his fielding WS by 1.3.

Pitching Win Shares

Win Shares gives McVey a fair amount of credit for his pitching stints, 76-79. WARP evaluates his pitching during that period as well below replacement level. These assessments are not reconcilable. Fortunately, McVey pitched hardly at all prior to 1876, so there's no need to worry about converting his pitching record in that period into WS. If you believe what WS has to say about pitching, you can give McVey additional WS. If you don't, you can leave those out. If you believe WARP, you can dock McVey's career WS by 4 or so to account for his hurting his team by taking the mound.

[DoubleX]

At some point I think we had a minor conversation about Del Pratt's defense. I was just skimming through the Bill James Historical Abstract and noticed that in discussing Pratt, James believes Pratt deserved the 1919 Gold Glove, and would have been second in five other seasons, four of which he was behind the great Eddie Collins.

This probably won't tip the scales for anyone, but it's some food for thought.

[SavoyBG]

At some point I think we had a minor conversation about Del Pratt's defense. I was just skimming through the Bill James Historical Abstract and noticed that in discussing Pratt, James believes Pratt deserved the 1919 Gold Glove, and would have been second in five other seasons, four of which he was behind the great Eddie Collins.

This probably won't tip the scales for anyone, but it's some food for thought.

Win shares has Pratt as a B fielder. Collins was A-, but in way more innings at 2B.

Pratt was a very good player. Just not a hall of fame level player. He's at a similar level to Jimmy Williams and Mller Huggins. Guys who were pretty solidly above average 2Bmen for around ten seasons.

[SavoyBG]

Win Shares gives McVey a fair amount of credit for his pitching stints, 76-79.

He was very good on the mound in '76, but got pounded in the other seasons.

[henrich]

Babe Adams
Pete alexander
chief bender
eddie collins
johnny evers
larry gardner
heinie groh
harry hooper
tommy leach
rube marquard
carl mays
bob meusel
ed reulbach
bob shawkey
george sisler

[Phish]

Alexander
Collins
Sisler

[SavoyBG]

Alexander
Collins
Sisler

You just knocked Groh back down under the number.

I can understand Sisler getting in, but not this overwhelmingly. He's not an all time great player like Collins and Alexander.

[bambambaseball]

You just knocked Groh back down under the number.

I can understand Sisler getting in, but not this overwhelmingly. He's not an all time great player like Collins and Alexander.

First, in is in. The whole 1st balott or 15th balott push is a stupid line of reasoning. So is this talk about 100% vs 75%. In is in! Also, through 75 years of professional baseball, only Roger Conner, Dan Brouthers and Cap Anson compare to him at his position. That makes him an all time great in 1936 eyes! Gehrig and his company are a different type of player from a different way of playing that cant be compared to when those 4 played.

[bambambaseball]

I think your right that its :crazy:crazy:crazy that people are voting for guys like Sisler and forgetting about Groh, though!

[SavoyBG]

First, in is in. The whole 1st balott or 15th balott push is a stupid line of reasoning. So is this talk about 100% vs 75%. In is in! Also, through 75 years of professional baseball, only Roger Conner, Dan Brouthers and Cap Anson compare to him at his position. That makes him an all time great in 1936 eyes! Gehrig and his company are a different type of player from a different way of playing that cant be compared to when those 4 played.


Maybe you missed the discussion, but I showed a few other 1Bman from this century who are around the same level of Sisler, including current Giants star Bill Terry, who will likely end up as a much better overall hitter than George, given George's shocking decline over the final 7 years of his career ('24 to '30).

Even george's great years are a bit overrated. He hit a ton of singles, did not walk much and only had decent power. He was not all that great of a fielder either. Excellent speed.

[bambambaseball]

Maybe you missed the discussion, but I showed a few other 1Bman from this century who are around the same level of Sisler, including current Giants star Bill Terry, who will likely end up as a much better overall hitter than George, given George's shocking decline over the final 7 years of his career ('24 to '30).

Even george's great years are a bit overrated. He hit a ton of singles, did not walk much and only had decent power. He was not all that great of a fielder either. Excellent speed.

I saw it. You want to punish Sisler because he didnt retire when he got injured and reward guys with much lesser careers for not playing after their injuries did them in and you ignore the fact that when Sisler played, he did because he needed money and baseball players didnt make the big bucks. Thats a weak argument. Sisler was signifigantly better then Bill Terry.

[SavoyBG]

I saw it. You want to punish Sisler because he didnt retire when he got injured and reward guys with much lesser careers for not playing after their injuries did them in and you ignore the fact that when Sisler played, he did because he needed money and baseball players didnt make the big bucks. Thats a weak argument. Sisler was signifigantly better then Bill Terry.

How do you know for sure, Terry's career is not even over yet.

Sisler wasn't even better than Groh:

WIN SHARES TOP THREE SEASONS
Groh - 37-30-28
Sisler - 33-29-29

WIN SHARES TOP 5 CONSECUTIVE SEASONS
Groh - 147
Sisler - 135

WIN SHARES TOP 7 CONSECUTIVE SEASONS
Groh - 191
Sisler - 189

WIN SHARES per 162:
Sisler - 23.02
Groh - 26.19

[SavoyBG]

Sisler was signifigantly better then Bill Terry.

Doesn't seem so. He beats Sisler in every peak measurement, and at this point has a much better career OPS+ than George.

WIN SHARES BEST THREE SEASONS
Sisler - 33-29-29 = 91
Terry - 32-32-29 = 93

WIN SHARES BEST 5 CONSECUTIVE SEASONS
Terry - 142
Sisler - 135

And if you stretch it out to seven consecutive seasons:
Terry - 191
Sisler - 189

Terry already has more adjusted batting runs, was a much better fielder, and could still add to his totals.

What do you possibly see that makes Sisler "significantly better" than Terry?

[bambambaseball]

How do you know for sure, Terry's career is not even over yet.

Sisler wasn't even better than Groh:

WIN SHARES TOP THREE SEASONS
Groh - 37-30-28
Sisler - 33-29-29

WIN SHARES TOP 5 CONSECUTIVE SEASONS
Groh - 147
Sisler - 135

WIN SHARES TOP 7 CONSECUTIVE SEASONS
Groh - 191
Sisler - 189

WIN SHARES per 162:
Sisler - 23.02
Groh - 26.19

I know that Terry career doesnt even come close to Sisler- 1936 and that this 1936 season he was only a part time player! :)

I like the Groh comparison to point out how it doesnt make sense to vote for Sisler but not Groh because I agree with you there. ;)

[bambambaseball]

Doesn't seem so. He beats Sisler in every peak measurement, and at this point has a much better career OPS+ than George.

WIN SHARES BEST THREE SEASONS
Sisler - 33-29-29 = 91
Terry - 32-32-29 = 93

WIN SHARES BEST 5 CONSECUTIVE SEASONS
Terry - 142
Sisler - 135

And if you stretch it out to seven consecutive seasons:
Terry - 191
Sisler - 189

Terry already has more adjusted batting runs, was a much better fielder, and could still add to his totals.

What do you possibly see that makes Sisler "significantly better" than Terry?

Those are raw win shares and OPS+ is for amateurs. I dont even look at that. Adjusted bating runs? Please show me how they compare to their contemporarys in that catagory.

[SavoyBG]

Adjusted bating runs? Please show me how they compare to their contemporarys in that catagory.


ADJUSTED BATTING RUNS
Sisler - 250
Terry - 315 (through 1934)

I ask you again, what evidence do you have that makes Sisler "significantly better" than Terry?

[mwiggins]

I notice he left career win shares out of the equation...

Sisler - 292
Terry - 278
Groh - 271

Even playing half his career with impaired vision, he still racked up more career value than both Terry and Groh. And that's with missing a full season in his prime. And Win Shares doesn't really take into account his great baserunning, where he has a huge edge on Terry.

And in their best years, Terry was nowhere near Sisler. Terry has nothing on his resume that can touch Sisler's 1920 and 1922 seasons. Sisler was clearly the better player. And he put together a better career, despite his illness.

[SavoyBG]

And in their best years, Terry was nowhere near Sisler. Terry has nothing on his resume that can touch Sisler's 1920 and 1922 seasons.

Are you disputing these numbers?

WIN SHARES BEST THREE SEASONS
Sisler - 33-29-29 = 91
Terry - 32-32-29 = 93

Once you adjust for era and home park, Terry's best two seasons combined were a bit more valuable than Sisler's best two seasons combined.

[bambambaseball]

Are you disputing these numbers?

WIN SHARES BEST THREE SEASONS
Sisler - 33-29-29 = 91
Terry - 32-32-29 = 93

Once you adjust for era and home park, Terry's best two seasons combined were a bit more valuable than Sisler's best two seasons combined.

How does any of this show that Sisler is below the standards of this project? Terry is a definite yes on my balott in 1941 so your preaching to the choir here.

[bambambaseball]

ADJUSTED BATTING RUNS
Sisler - 250
Terry - 315 (through 1934)

I ask you again, what evidence do you have that makes Sisler "significantly better" than Terry?

mwiggins already did!

[Paul Wendt]

Davenport likes Sisler more than does James.
That is, Sisler fares better by WARP1 than by Win Shares.

On the other hand Terry has now extended his prime seasons to nine, two more than Sisler.

'->' means prorate a short schedule to 154 games (here, 1918 and 1919)

prime seasons

Sisler, 1916-22, seven seasons, sum 66.7 -> 69.8
(ordered by WARP1 before prorating)
12.0
9.9
9.6
9.3
9.1 -> 10.0
9.0 -> 11.2
7.8

Terry, 1927-35, nine seasons, sum 77.1
(ordered by WARP1)
10.5
10.0
9.9
8.6
8.5
8.2
7.9
7.5
6.0

Here are the same ratings more compactly.
120 112 100 99 96 93 78 -- -- : Sisler 1916-22 (after prorating 1918-19 to 154g)
105 100 99 86 85 82 79 75 60 : Terry 1927-35

best three seasons, sum
33.4 Sisler
30.4 Terry

best 5-year run, sum
(chronological order)
93 99 112 100 120 -> 52.4 : Sisler 1916-20
75 79 100 99 105 -> 45.8 : Terry 1928-32

--
Heinie Groh
best three seasons, sum
38.5

best 5-year run, sum
122 137 127 121 108 -> 61.5 : Groh 1916-20 (after prorating; including his best three seasons)

prime seasons ??
137 127 122 121 108 104 80 73 71 64 63 50
Groh missed more than one-third of the 1920 season and produced 6.3 WARP1. His first season 7.1 in Cincinnati was also short, where his best season in New York was full. Probably his prime" seasons should be considered his nine seasons in Cincinnati recognizing that the first was a little short and the last a lot short.
(chronological order)
71 80 104 122 137 127 121 108 63 -> 92.3 : Groh 1913-21 (after prorating)

--
RECAP - WARP1 after prorating 1918-19
top3 5yr ; prime sum, length
38.5 61.5; 92.3, 9 Groh
33.4 52.4; 69.8, 7 Sisler
30.4 45.8; 77.1, 9 Terry

[jalbright]

Many thanks for digging this up, Dan!

An Internet Archive (http://web.archive.org/web/20030816135846/www.baseballprimer.com/hom/archives/00000074.shtml) version of "Start and McVey" exists! Here's the sought after posting:

Posted 6:21 p.m., July 23, 2003 (#27) - Chris Cobb
As promised here are career Win Shares for Cal McVey, as derived from WARP1

Year -- Total -- Batting / Fielding -- adj. To 162 games (from)
1871 -- 9 -- 7.8/1.2 -- 48 (30 games)
1872 -- 7.6 -- 4.7/2.9 -- 24 (50 games)
1873 -- 9.9 -- 8.5/1.4 -- 27 (60 games)
1874 -- 16.6 -- 14.7/1.9 -- 38 (70 games)
1875 -- 25.2 -- 20.5/4.7 -- 51 (80 games)
1876 -- 11.6 -- 9.7/1.9 -- 31 (60 games)
1877 -- 11.2 -- 10.7/.5 -- 30 (60 games)
1878 -- 8.8 -- 8.6/.2 -- 22 (60 games)
1879 -- 12.3 -- 9.9/2.4 -- 24 (84 games)
Total -- 121.2 -- 95.1/17.1 -- 295

For 1876-1879, WS itself records 54 WS for McVey (16, 14, 11, 13), which adjust to 136. However, 22 of those are pitching WS, which WARP does not accept. Less the pitching WS, McVey's raw WS are 45, compared to 43.9 derived from WARP. I did this calculation to verify the accuracy of the method, employed on a season-by-season basis. Expanded, the differences come to 114 WS, 107 WARP. I suspect the difference arises from the very low fielding runs WARP gives McVey, which make the conversion into a rough estimate.

Ways of looking at the total
295 -- WARP-derived adj. career WS -- this number should be within 5% of the total that would be arrived at by calculating all McVey's WS directly from the data.
302 -- WARP-derived adj. Career WS 71-75 + adj. WS 76-79
324 -- Pitching added to 302
314 -- No pitching added, but fielding WS in the 302 figure adjusted upward by 30% (my standard pre-1893 adjustment)

I am amused that the estimate I find most accurate -- 314 -- almost exactly matches the rougher estimate that I set out to refine -- 315.

Having given the numbers, I'll explain the method, for those who want to know.

Battting Win Shares

Rather than starting from the WARP1 total, I started from BRAR. WS and WARP are in much closer agreement about batting value than about fielding value.

WARP1 seasonal totals seem to be calculated by summing all batting, fielding, and pitching runs above replacement and multiplying that total by about .103. So BRAR/10 gives a fair approximation of BWARP. If WS and WARP are right, then this should be true Batting WS = (BWARP X 3) + Batting Replacement Level. As far as I can tell, it is. If you divide BRAR by 10 and multiply by 3 for any player season or career, you'll get a number just a bit below batting win shares. That leaves the problem of replacement level. Since replacement level isn't entirely constant, and BRAR and batting WS are not perfectly consistent, this number isn't entirely fixable, but I've found by some trial and error that 3.5 WS / 162 games gives results that are accurate within 5% in all but one case I have tried (that's Sam Thompson -- grist for the mill!). For McVey, I found that replacement level for his 76-79 seasons, as calculable by subtracting his BWAR from his BWS was 3.52, so I used this number in calculations of batting WS for his 71-75 seasons. I am very confident, therefore, that the batting win shares are accurate within 5%. (A while ago I calculated batting WS by hand for the 1875 Red Stockings, so I had a hard number to check that season against. The WS calculated off of BWARP came to 21.5; the WS calculated by hand came to 20.5 -- 5% discrepancy. Since I had the hand-calculated WS number for 1875, I used it).

Fielding Win Shares

Since win shares and WARP do not agree about fielding value, there is no way to predict consistently the ratio of FRAR and fielding win shares. Win shares gives much lower credit for fielding, so I figured that a straight ratio of conversion for McVey's fielding win shares would give a conservative estimate of what actually calculating his fielding WS would reveal. McVey's FWAR for 76-79 are 3.5 . His fielding WS for this period are 4.86. The ratio between them is 1.39. For McVey's 71-75 seasons, I divided his FRAR by 10 and multiplied that number by 1.39. This gives a much lower estimate of McVey's fielding value than WARP does, but I figured that it would be a fairly accurate representation of the numbers that the WS system would actually produce. In rating McVey myself, I (as I have indicated above) multiply his fielding WS by 1.3.

Pitching Win Shares

Win Shares gives McVey a fair amount of credit for his pitching stints, 76-79. WARP evaluates his pitching during that period as well below replacement level. These assessments are not reconcilable. Fortunately, McVey pitched hardly at all prior to 1876, so there's no need to worry about converting his pitching record in that period into WS. If you believe what WS has to say about pitching, you can give McVey additional WS. If you don't, you can leave those out. If you believe WARP, you can dock McVey's career WS by 4 or so to account for his hurting his team by taking the mound.

[DoubleX]

Here's who I have eligible for next year:

Les Bell - May not be on ballot
Rip Collins
Joe Dugan
Bibb Falk
Bucky Harris
Butch Henline - May not be on ballot
Frank O'Rourke - May not be on ballot
Wally Schang
Earl Sheely
Phil Todt - Likely won't be on ballot

[SavoyBG]

Here's who I have eligible for next year:

Les Bell - May not be on ballot
Rip Collins
Joe Dugan
Bibb Falk
Bucky Harris
Butch Henline - May not be on ballot
Frank O'Rourke - May not be on ballot
Wally Schang
Earl Sheely
Phil Todt - Likely won't be on ballot


Very slim pickings DX. Only Schang even merits discussion IMO. Should be a year for guys who have been on the ballot for a while to perhaps gain some ground.

[SavoyBG]

You guys may think I'm crazy here, but I just saw a high school player (I think he's only a junior) in San Diego who has about the best swing I've ever seen. Watch for a tall lanky kid named Theodore Williams in the big leagues in a few years.

[jjpm74]

Here's who I have eligible for next year:

Les Bell - May not be on ballot
Rip Collins
Joe Dugan
Bibb Falk
Bucky Harris
Butch Henline - May not be on ballot
Frank O'Rourke - May not be on ballot
Wally Schang
Earl Sheely
Phil Todt - Likely won't be on ballot

That's it in a nutshell. Les Bell is borderline. Butch Henline and Frank O'Rourke don't need to be on the ballot. They were part time players. Phil Todt is not worth adding to the ballot, either.

Of the 1st year eligibles, Wally Schang fits well with Roger Bresnahan et. al. He could get a good deal of support and would definitely benefit from some discussion and comparison. If no one else champions his cause, I may add some more in depth comparisons at his position. That won't happen until after Leach's time on the ballot expires, however.