BBF VC Progressive HoF Election: 1935 Preliminary

[DoubleX]

Below is the master list. Players in bold are newly eligible for the VC while players in italics made it to the final ballot last time. Anyone that heldover at least one year in the regular election is on this list, but that was mostly for convenience and anyone who was eligible for the regular election can be added to this list upon suggestion.

Anyone is free to participate in the discussion, but only the ballots of the 16 VC members will be counted.

Here's how the process works: We have two rounds of voting. In the first round, voters must list who they believe are the 15 best candidates on the master list. A final ballot will then be made consisting of every player that received at least 50% support in the first round. Voters will then to elect players from the master ballot, with 75% needed for election.
- NOTE: Some players are also eligible as contributors. If you feel a person's worthiness is not based primarily on his playing career, you should not vote for him here but vote for him in the contributors election (which will now be held in the year following each players' election). It is possible that a person can be independently worthy as a both a player and contributor, in that rare case, it may be appropriate to vote for him in both capacities.

Each round of voting will last up to 5 days. If after 5 days not every member has voted, the results will be based on a quorum requiring at least 12 members to have voted.

Master List
Ginger Beaumont
Bill Bradley
Kitty Bransfield
Tommy Bond
Charlie Buffinton
Jack Burdock
Oyster Burns
Jack Chesbro
John Clapp
Boileryard Clarke
Larry Corcoran
Tommy Corcoran
Lave Cross
Nig Cuppy
Candy Cummings
Abner Dalyrmple
Bill Dinneen
Mike Donlin
Jack Doyle
Fred Dunlap
Frank Dwyer
Duke Farrell
Bob Ferguson
Cherokee Fisher
Wes Fisler
Silver Flint
Davy Force
Russ Ford
Dave Foutz
Kid Gleason
Mike Griffin
Clark Griffith
Noodles Hahn
Ned Hanlon
Topsy Hartsel
Dummy Hoy
Charley Jones
Fielder Jones
Brickyard Kennedy
Silver King
Johnny Kling
Arlie Latham
Sam Leever
Andy Leonard
Bobby Lowe
Denny Lyons
Fergy Malone
Bobby Mathews
Jimmy McAleer
Dick McBride
Tommy McCarthy
Jim McCormick
John McGraw
Deacon McGuire
Ed McKean
Levi Meyerle
Billy Nash
Jack O'Connor
Tip O'Neill
Dave Orr
Orval Overall
John Peters
Deacon Phillippe
Jack Powell
Claude Ritchey
Wilbert Robinson
Jack Rowe
Cy Seymour
Jimmy Sheckard
Chick Stahl
George Stone
George Stovall
Jesse Tannehill
Roy Thomas
Mike Tiernan
John Warner
Doc White
Will White
Jim Whitney
Ned Williamson
Jimmy Williams
Hooks Wiltsie
Tom York
George Zettlein
Chief Zimmer

[jalbright]

Like last time, I'll support at least one guy the next time around, but I wouldn't count on more than that from me with this group. That said, here's my fifteen:

Tommy Bond
Jack Chesbro
Lave Cross
Candy Cummings
Mike Donlin
Fred Dunlap
Mike Griffin
Clark Griffith
Charlie Jones
Bobby Mathews
Jim McCormick
Tip O'Neill
Jimmy Sheckard
Mike Tiernan
Ned Williamson

[DoubleX]

Below is a re-post of part of that list I recently posted in the regular election showing each the OPS+ of each player that has had at least 6000 PAs thus far. I want highlight catcher and corner outfield here:

Catcher (5)
King Kelly - 138 OPS+ (6455 PA) - Also Listed at RF
Deacon White - 127 OPS+ (6972 PA) - Also Listed at 3B
Deacon McGuire - 101 OPS+ (6932 PA)
Duke Farrell - 99 OPS+ (6254 PA)
Ray Schalk - 83 OPS+ (6217 PA)

I think this might support giving McGuire and Farrell and extra look. Kelly and White spent considerable time at other positions (and Kelly at least is thought of primarily at another position), while none of our other elected primary catchers (Cal McVey, Buck Ewing, Charlie Bennett, and Roger Bresnahan) have enough PAs to appear on this list (though length of schedule to varying degrees with each has something to do with that, but the same could be said for McGuire and Farrell)). McGuire and Farrell appear to have exhibited very rare longevity and productivity at the position. I don't know if that makes them worthy, but I think worthy of a little more consideration.

Corner OF (33)
Ed Delahanty - 152 OPS+ (8389 PA)
Elmer Flick - 149 OPS+ (6414 PA)
Sam Thompson - 146 OPS+ (6502 PA)
Sam Crawford - 144 OPS+ (10594)
Harry Stovey - 143 OPS+ (6832 PA) - Also Listed at 1B
Billy Hamilton - 141 OPS+ (6268 PA) - Also Listed at CF
Jesse Burkett - 140 OPS+ (9605 PA)
King Kelly - 138 OPS+ (6455 PA) - Also Listed at C
Mike Tiernan - 137 OPS+ (6716 PA)
Sherry Magee - 136 OPS+ (8546 PA)
Jim O'Rourke - 133 OPS+ (9051 PA)
Joe Kelley - 133 OPS+ (8120 PA)
Fred Clarke - 132 OPS+ (9819 PA)
Hardy Richardson - 130 OPS+ (6029 PA) - Also Listed at 2B
Zack Wheat - 129 OPS+ (9996 PA)
Bobby Veach - 127 OPS+ (7557 PA)
Willie Keller - 126 OPS+ (9594 PA)
Jimmy Ryan - 123 OPS+ (9106 PA) - Also Listed at CF
Hugh Duffy - 122 OPS+ (7827 PA) - Also Listed at CF
Kip Selbach - 121 OPS+ (7089 PA)
Jimmy Sheckard - 120 OPS+ (9118 PA)
Bob Meusel - 118 OPS+ (6028 PA)
Harry Hooper - 114 OPS+ (10244 PA)
George J. Burns - 114 OPS+ (8251 PA)
Frank Schulte - 114 OPS+ (7413 PA)
John Anderson - 114 OPS+ (6768 PA)
Sam Rice - 112 OPS+ (10246 PA)
Jack Tobin - 109 OPS+ (6782 PA)
Duffy Lewis - 108 OPS+ (6007 PA)
Charlie Jamieson - 101 OPS+ (7488 PA)
Patsy Donovan - 97 OPS+ (8133 PA)
Shano Collins - 90 OPS+ (7036 PA)
Howie Shanks - 82 OPS+ (6414 PA) - Also Listed at 3B

Since a lot of these guys spent time bouncing around the OF, I thought I'd just group them together as corner OFers. Mike Tiernan stands out though. He's the only player among the first 15 players that we haven't elected, and with Bobby Veach, one of only two among the first 19. So Tiernan would appear to be well within our standards, especially when you factor in his baserunning.


And for what it's worth, at SS, Ed McKean has the third highest OPS+ of all time among shortstops with at least 6000 PAs. I definitely think we were too dismissive of him. His defense though is a big issue.

[jalbright]

Below is a re-post of part of that list I recently posted in the regular election showing each the OPS+ of each player that has had at least 6000 PAs thus far. I want highlight catcher and corner outfield here:

Corner OF (33)
Ed Delahanty - 152 OPS+ (8389 PA)
Elmer Flick - 149 OPS+ (6414 PA)
Sam Thompson - 146 OPS+ (6502 PA)
Sam Crawford - 144 OPS+ (6502 PA)
Harry Stovey - 143 OPS+ (6832 PA) - Also Listed at 1B
Billy Hamilton - 141 OPS+ (6268 PA) - Also Listed at CF
Jesse Burkett - 140 OPS+ (9605 PA)
King Kelly - 138 OPS+ (6455 PA) - Also Listed at C
Mike Tiernan - 137 OPS+ (6716 PA)
Sherry Magee - 136 OPS+ (8546 PA)
Jim O'Rourke - 133 OPS+ (9051 PA)
Joe Kelley - 133 OPS+ (8120 PA)
Fred Clarke - 132 OPS+ (9819 PA)
Hardy Richardson - 130 OPS+ (6029 PA) - Also Listed at 2B
Zack Wheat - 129 OPS+ (9996 PA)
Bobby Veach - 127 OPS+ (7557 PA)
Willie Keller - 126 OPS+ (9594 PA)
Jimmy Ryan - 123 OPS+ (9106 PA) - Also Listed at CF
Hugh Duffy - 122 OPS+ (7827 PA) - Also Listed at CF
Kip Selbach - 121 OPS+ (7089 PA)
Jimmy Sheckard - 120 OPS+ (9118 PA)
Bob Meusel - 118 OPS+ (6028 PA)
Harry Hooper - 114 OPS+ (10244 PA)
George J. Burns - 114 OPS+ (8251 PA)
Frank Schulte - 114 OPS+ (7413 PA)
John Anderson - 114 OPS+ (6768 PA)
Sam Rice - 112 OPS+ (10246 PA)
Jack Tobin - 109 OPS+ (6782 PA)
Duffy Lewis - 108 OPS+ (6007 PA)
Charlie Jamieson - 101 OPS+ (7488 PA)
Patsy Donovan - 97 OPS+ (8133 PA)
Shano Collins - 90 OPS+ (7036 PA)
Howie Shanks - 82 OPS+ (6414 PA) - Also Listed at 3B

Since a lot of these guys spent time bouncing around the OF, I thought I'd just group them together as corner OFers. Mike Tiernan stands out though. He's the only player among the first 15 players that we haven't elected, and with Bobby Veach, one of only two among the first 19. So Tiernan would appear to be well within our standards, especially when you factor in his baserunning.

The problem with this is that you're putting the premium on OPS+, not PA. If you went that way, he'd rank in the bottom third rather than the upper. At best, he's borderline for me.

[DoubleX]

My ballot:

Jack Chesbro
Lave Cross
Candy Cummings
Duke Farrell
Dave Foutz
Mike Griffin
Clark Griffith
Charley Jones
Fielder Jones
Jim McCormick
Deacon McGuire
Ed McKean
Levi Meyerle
Jimmy Sheckard
Mike Tiernan

I don't really support Chesbro, but I voted for him because I still feel bad that we totally forgot him in the regular elections. I sacrificed Fred Dunlap from my ballot to make room for Chesbro. Ginger Beaumont also just missed my ballot.

[DoubleX]

The problem with this is that you're putting the premium on OPS+, not PA. If you went that way, he'd rank in the bottom third rather than the upper. At best, he's borderline for me.

So would Elmer Flick, Harry Stovey, Billy Hamilton (more of CFer), Sam Thompson, King Kelly, and Hardy Richardson (more of a 2Bman), who have all been elected. Granted, I think each of these players has something else going for them (either slightly higher offense than Tiernan (Flick, Stovey, Thompson) or significant time at more important defensive positions (Hamilton, Kelly, Richardson), but I really don't think Tiernan is that far off and I believe within our standards generally.

EDIT: At least in terms of Win Shares, Tiernan compares very favorably to Thompson, and the two were contemporaries. I know some viewed Thompson as something of a mistake when he was elected, but he was among our first 20 inductees. So if there was support for Thompson way back when, I would think there should be at least a little more support for Tiernan (though the VC to the regular election is like apples and oranges).

Top 3 WS Seasons
Tiernan: 80 (28 High)
Thompson: 79 (29 High)

Top 5 WS Seasons
Tiernan: 129
Thompson: 123

Career WS
Tiernan: 251
Thompson: 236

[jjpm74]

Prelim ballot. Guys in bold are the ones who will likely appear on my final ballot if they make the cut.

Larry Corcoran
Lave Cross
Duke Farrell
Noodles Hahn
Dummy Hoy
Charley Jones
Fielder Jones
Johnny Kling
Dick McBride
Jim McCormick
Deacon McGuire
Jimmy Sheckard
Roy Thomas
Mike Tiernan
Ned Williamson

[henrich]

1. Lave Cross
2. Sam Leever
3. Jim McCormick
4. Jack Powell
5. Will white
6. Jimmy Sheckard
7. Dummy Hoy
8. Mike Griffin
9. jack Chesbro
10. Dummy Hoy
11. Tommy Corcoran
12. Ginger beaumont
13. Hooks Wiltse
14. Deacon Phillippe
15. Jesse Tannehill

Not really in any order. I would be inclined to support the ones in bold if they are in the final cut.

[jjpm74]

Jack Powell? I can see you supporting him here in the preliminary, but on the final ballot? He was a below league average pitcher who managed to stick around forever.

[Paul Wendt]

Four of the newcomers remained were on the regular ballot for many years. Johnny Kling, Jimmy Sheckard, and Roy Thomas are easy choices here --and Mike Donlin is an easy one on the other side.

Try anew with Billy Nash, as argued by AG2004 five or ten years ago.

Try again with Fielder Jones, Dick McBride, and John McGraw.

From the previous final ballot Mike Griffin, Deacon McGuire, and the six leaders (italics).

Lave Cross
Candy Cummings
Mike Griffin
Clark Griffith
Fielder Jones
Charley Jones
Johnny Kling
Dick McBride
Jim McCormick
John McGraw
Deacon McGuire
Billy Nash
Jimmy Sheckard
Roy Thomas
Mike Tiernan

P.S.

Please remind me the status of Jim Creighton in this project.

Links to 1930 would be helpful --helpful to me at noon but here they are now.
1930 Vet Players prelim (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85091&highlight=preliminary+1930)
1930 Vet Players final (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85439&highlight=preliminary+1930)

[Paul Wendt]

:banghead:

(was dupli-post)
Catcher (5)
King Kelly - 138 OPS+ (6455 PA) - Also Listed at RF
Deacon White - 127 OPS+ (6972 PA) - Also Listed at 3B
Deacon McGuire - 101 OPS+ (6932 PA)
Duke Farrell - 99 OPS+ (6254 PA)
Ray Schalk - 83 OPS+ (6217 PA)

I think this might support giving McGuire and Farrell and extra look.
Previously I voted for Chief Zimmer on similar grounds and my final cuts were then Duke Farrell and Pop Snyder. If Mike makes the case for Farrell with some success --say, if four others cast him preliminary votes-- then I will hop on the preliminary bandwagon.

[DoubleX]

Paul, I believe it was decided to move Jim Creighton, as well as a few of the other "pioneer players" from the 1920 ballot, to the contributors section (the rest of the pioneer players were put on this ballot).

I also probably won't make more of a case for Duke Farrell (or Deacon McGuire). I think there's probably a decent case out there given that his longevity and productivity was very rare at his position, but honestly, I'm not that inclined right not to push it further. I think Farrell and McGuire are probably worth some extra thought and would make sense on the final ballot (McGuire made it last time), but at this point, I don't think I'll be voting for either if they make the final cut.

I have my doubts whether we'll elect anyone this time. None of the newbies really stand out (maybe Sheckard?), and the rest have gone through the process now 1 to 3 times. I believe Tiernan has the best case based on our standards, but we've already passed on him three times. Charley Jones has received decent support each time out and extended discussion on him could make a difference (Paul, didn't you advocate for Jones way back when?). Griffith came a vote or two away last time, but the problem with him is that voters may not be sure what to do with him (i.e. whether he's better suited to be inducted as contributor).

[Cowtipper]

Tommy Bond
Charlie Buffinton
Jack Chesbro
Lave Cross
Mike Donlin
Clark Griffith
Charley Jones
Sam Leever
Jim McCormick
Deacon McGuire
Ed McKean
Dave Orr
Deacon Phillippe
Jesse Tannehill
Will White

[SavoyBG]

Here's the guys that I think deserve the most consideration JUST AS PLAYERS.

Larry Corcoran
Clark Griffith
Denny Lyons
Jim McCormick
John McGraw
Tip O'Neill
Deacon Phillippe
Roy Thomas

Hanlon and maybe Ferguson should be considered as all around contributors. Ferguson was one of the first great umpires of the 19th century.


Here's a very good "History Of Umpiring" article on a friend's site:

http://www.stevetheump.com/umpiring_history.htm

and the Ferguson excerpt...

Nonetheless, baseball's tumultuous era produced several umpires of historical importance. William B. "Billy" McLean, part-time pugilist from Philadelphia, was the first professional umpire. So great was his ability and reputation for fairness that National League officials in 1876 not only agreed to his demands for the unheard of $5 per game but also sent him on a expense-paid tour of every city in the league. The most famous early exponents of the two basic styles of umpiring were Robert V. Ferguson and John H. Gaffney. Ferguson, known during his playing days as "Robert the Great" and "Death to Flying Things," ruled as an iron-fisted autocrat, while Gaffney, dubbed "The King of the Umpires," controlled the game through tact and diplomacy. Gaffney also popularized the technique of working behind home plate until a player reached base and then moving behind the pitcher. (Before this the umpire worked either behind the batter or behind the pitcher and did not shift.) In 1888 Gaffney was the highest-paid umpire in baseball, earning $2,500 a year, plus expenses on the road.


Are you guys familiar with this story...

Indeed, in 1882 Richard Higham of Troy, New York, former manager and National League player, was banished from the league for advising gamblers how to bet on games he umpired, thus earning the infamous distinction of being the only umpire ever judged guilty of dishonesty on the field.

I think Higham was Pete Rose's maternal great grandfather :D

[jjpm74]

I have my doubts whether we'll elect anyone this time. None of the newbies really stand out (maybe Sheckard?), and the rest have gone through the process now 1 to 3 times. I believe Tiernan has the best case based on our standards, but we've already passed on him three times. Charley Jones has received decent support each time out and extended discussion on him could make a difference (Paul, didn't you advocate for Jones way back when?). Griffith came a vote or two away last time, but the problem with him is that voters may not be sure what to do with him (i.e. whether he's better suited to be inducted as contributor).

Sheckard is definitely the best of this class. Of the holdovers, Mike Tiernan is closest to our standards. You're right that we might not elect anyone this go around which is fine. We shouldn't be electing tons of players via the VC.

[DoubleX]

Bumping up.

[PVNICK]

Bill Bradley
Tommy Bond
Jack Chesbro
Lave Cross
Bob Ferguson
Mike Griffin
Noodles Hahn
Johnny Kling
Sam Leever
Jim McCormick
Deacon McGuire
Deacon Phillippe
Jimmy Sheckard
Mike Tiernan
Ned Williamson

[dgarza]

Tommy Bond
Larry Corcoran
Mike Donlin
Charley Jones
Silver King
Denny Lyons
Bobby Mathews
Jim McCormick
John McGraw
Ed McKean
Levi Meyerle
Tip O'Neill
Dave Orr
Mike Tiernan
Will White

[DoubleX]

Still need at least 4 more VC member to vote for a quorum.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Tommy Bond
Larry Corcoran
Lave Cross
Clark Griffith
Charley Jones
Johnny Kling
Sam Leever
Bobby Mathews
Jim McCormick
Levi Meyerle
Dave Orr
Jimmy Sheckard
Roy Thomas
Mike Tiernan
Ned Williamson

[leecemark]

Ginger Beaumont
Bill Bradley
Jack Chesbro
Duke Farrell
Clark Griffith
Charley Jones
Fielder Jones
Johnny Kling
Jim McCormick
Dave Orr
Deacon Phillippe
Cy Seymour
Jimmy Sheckard
Roy Thomas
Ned Williamson

--Bolded (Griffith and Sheckard) are the guys I plan to actually vote for.

[KCGHOST]

Corcoran
Cross
Cuppy
Donlin
Dunlap
C. Griffith
C. Jones
Ned Hanlon
B. Mathews
J. McCormick
McGraw
O'Neill
Sheckard
Tiernan
Williamson

[bambambaseball]

Larry Corcoran
Lave Cross
Duke Farrell
Clark Griffith
Noodles Hahn
Dummy Hoy
Charley Jones
Fielder Jones
Jim McCormick
Deacon McGuire
Levi Meyerle
Jimmy Sheckard
Roy Thomas
Mike Tiernan
Ned Williamson

[BlueBlood]

Tommy Bond
Charlie Buffinton
Candy Cummings
Clark Griffith
Dummy Hoy
Charley Jones
Silver King
Jim McCormick
John McGraw
Ed McKean
Tip O'Neill
Jimmy Sheckard
Mike Tiernan
Ned Williamson
Chief Zimmer

[AG2004]

Here's my list of 15, in alphabetical order:

Tommy Bond
Jack Chesbro
Candy Cummings
Dave Foutz
Clark Griffith

Charley Jones
Fielder Jones
Johnny Kling
Denny Lyons
John McGraw

Billy Nash
Jimmy Sheckard
Roy Thomas
Mike Tiernan
Ned Williamson

[OOC - My computer has been fixed.]

[jjpm74]

Paul, I believe it was decided to move Jim Creighton, as well as a few of the other "pioneer players" from the 1920 ballot, to the contributors section (the rest of the pioneer players were put on this ballot).

That is indeed what happened and Jim Creighton was elected to our hall as a Pioneer via the contributor's ballot.

[DoubleX]

We have 13 ballots in so we have our quorum. I'll give a few more hours though (perhaps even until tomorrow morning). Henrich voted for Dummy Hoy twice, it will only be counted once. Henrich, feel free to replace one of those votes.

As of now, a player will have to be on 7 ballots to make it to the final ballot. Here are the current results:

Jim McCormick: 12
Charley Jones: 11
Jimmy Sheckard: 11
Mike Tiernan: 10
Clark Griffith: 9
Lave Cross: 9
Ned Williamson: 8
Tommy Bond: 7
Jack Chesbro: 7

Johnny Kling: 6
Candy Cummings: 5
Mike Griffin: 5
Fielder Jones: 5
John McGraw: 5
Deacon McGuire: 5
Roy Thomas: 5
Larry Corcoran: 4
Mike Donlin: 4
Sam Leever: 4
Bobby Mathews: 4
Ed McKean: 4
Tip O'Neill: 4
Dave Orr: 4
Deacon Phillippe: 4
Duke Farrell: 3
Dummy Hoy: 3
Levi Meyerle: 3
Will White: 3
Ginger Beaumont: 2
Bill Bradley: 2
Charlie Buffinton: 2
Fred Dunlap: 2
Dave Foutz: 2
Noodles Hahn: 2
Silver King: 2
Denny Lyons: 2
Dick McBride: 2
Billy Nash: 2
Jesse Tannehill: 2
Tommy Corcoran: 1
Nig Cuppy: 1
Bob Ferguson: 1
Ned Hanlon: 1
Jack Powell: 1
Hooks Wiltsie: 1
Chief Zimmer: 1

This is shaping up to be our smallest final VC ballot yet.