Most Glaring HOF Omission

[SavoyBG]

Among eligible players, which player is the most glaring omission from the hall of fame?

Dick Allen
Ross Barnes
Bert Blyleven
Tommy Bond
Pete Browning
Cupid Childs
Larry Corcoran
Bill Dahlen
Wes Ferrell
Jack Glasscock
Bobby Grich
Stan Hack
Tommy John
Jim Kaat
Sherry Magee
Carl Mays
Billy Pierce
Ron Santo
Harry Stovey
Jim Wynn

[SavoyBG]

I went for Ross Barnes. As great as the rest of these players are, I think it's an absolute travesty that the biggest star of the first pro league is not in the hall of fame.

[nyykan_t]

Bill Dahlen

A top 10 all time SS at the very least, probably in the top 5. And 90% baseball people don't know who is he.

[SavoyBG]

Bill Dahlen

A top 10 all time SS at the very least, probably in the top 5. And 90% baseball people don't know who is he.

Good choice. He's probably the best player on the list. I'm stuck on Barnes for other factors, but Dahlen not being in the hall is crazy.

[Mongoose]

Where are Parisian Bob Caruthers and Dave Foutz?

[SavoyBG]

Where are Parisian Bob Caruthers and Dave Foutz?

Foutz doesn't belong, but Caruthers does, my mistake. If a moderator can add Caruthers to the poll that would be nice.

Foutz only started 216 games in his career. Excellent for a while, but not as deserving as anybody on the list IMO. I'd put Smokey Joe Wood in before him, and Wood's not that close IMO.

[Los Bravos]

Off of this list, Blyleven.

I still think Ted Simmons is the current most glaring player omission.

[jalbright]

Foutz doesn't belong, but Caruthers does, my mistake. If a moderator can add Caruthers to the poll that would be nice.


Caruthers is added, but at the end of the poll. With results already in place, that's the best way to go.

[Homestead Gray]

Among eligible players, which player is the most glaring omission from the hall of fame?


It is one that is not on your list either ... Andre Dawson a pure and complete ballplayer

[PVNICK]

I went with Caruthers.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I voted for Bad Bill.

Blyleven never seemed dominant, what we hear most from his detractors, but the HOF has never actually been just about dominant players, so he's way over the line. When Mr. 1876 Puppet Morgan Bulkeley was selected in 1937 those "ideals" went out the window.

Far more people know the super historic important story of Mario Cuomo trying to make it with the Pirates than of most players before WWII. Stan Musial? Who cares how he did in 1948, Mario Cuomo's story needs to be told between bonding stories of Doris Kearns Goodwin and her dad! That's real history.

[RuthMayBond]

Jim McCormick has at least as much right to be on this list as Tommy Bond

[SavoyBG]

Jim McCormick has at least as much right to be on this list as Tommy Bond

Perhaps, but I was using Bill James top 100 pitchers as a guide to who might belong, and McCormick was not there.

[RuthMayBond]

I'm not even convinced that Childs is the SIXTH most deserving 2B left off

[gman5431]

Dickie Allen. Although i probably would have voted for the Hawk before him....

G Rizzle

[KCGHOST]

Blyleven, Dahlen, or Santo.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Blyleven.

It's close. I could have voted for a few others. I view Blyleven as the guy who has racked up the career stats that would get anyone else in the HOF.

[CROM]

Blyleven, Allen and Santo are the most obvious ones for me. (in that order)

[STLCards2]

Blyleven, Allen and Santo are the most obvious ones for me. (in that order)

I would agree:

H.M. to the following: Raines, Magee, Grich, Ferrell, Dahlen, Trammel, Caruthers, Minnoso, Whitaker, Simmons, Torre.

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

I said Blyleven with close seconds to Dahlen and Sherry McGee.

Why are two obvious non-HOF'ers Larry Corocran and Ross Barnes on this list and not Raines or Simmons??

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

And taking a closer look at Ted Simmons numbers, I can't understand why this man is not in the HOF. He has some of the best counting numbers all time for a catcher and, according to baseball reference, had a .987 fielding % AND threw out an outstanding 51.4% of potential basestealers (611 out of 1188). I always assumed Ted Simmons was a bad fielding catcher because his offensive numbers are stellar.

Can someone shed light on why Ted Simmons gets snubbed?

Biggest injustices In order

Blyleven, Simmons, Dahlen, McGee,Allen, Santo, Torre, Caruthers


ADDENDUM: I erroneously posted that Simmons caught 51.4% percent of basestealers above. In actuality, Simmons threw out 611 out of 1799 attempted basestealers at a 33.96% rate. Still pretty darn good in my book.

The defensively revered Bob Boone threw out 39.74% baserunners.

Jim Sundberg 41.16%

Tony Pena 34.87%

Carleton FIsk 33.77%

[Mongoose]

I voted for Caruthers...

Maybe a good poll question might be "How many here even know who he is without looking him up?".

A 218-99 W-L record as a pitcher - and a career OPS+ of 133 as a hitter. Though he's generally forgotten, I don't think anyone else on the list comes close.

[brett]

And taking a closer look at Ted Simmons numbers, I can't understand why this man is not in the HOF. He has some of the best counting numbers all time for a catcher and, according to baseball reference, had a .987 fielding % AND threw out an outstanding 51.4% of potential basestealers (611 out of 1188).

Actually he caught 611 and ALLOWED 1188 so was 611 for 1799 or 34% which still at face value is not that bad.

But I don't have him in the hall. I'd prefer Torre, and probably Freehan and could live with either of them out.

[Colorado Express]

My decision came down to Blyleven or Santo, with Blyleven winning quite handedly.

[brett]

Blyleven, Allen and Santo are the most obvious ones for me. (in that order)

Bly for sure, he is probably a top 35 pitcher. Allen and Santo are clear top 100 position players, but Raines may be higher than both and Dahlen could be too.

If we could put Bly, Allen, Santo, Raines and Dahlen in, everyone else on the outside I would have at least just outside.

Then take about 20-25 guys out and we're OK.

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

Bly for sure, he is probably a top 35 pitcher. Allen and Santo are clear top 100 position players, but Raines may be higher than both and Dahlen could be too.

If we could put Bly, Allen, Santo, Raines and Dahlen in, everyone else on the outside I would have at least just outside.

Then take about 20-25 guys out and we're OK.

I'm a Small Hall guy, but I'm in agreement with you. I would take at least 25 guys out and add those 5 + Simmons and I think they would have it right.

[jalbright]

And taking a closer look at Ted Simmons numbers, I can't understand why this man is not in the HOF. He has some of the best counting numbers all time for a catcher and, according to baseball reference, had a .987 fielding % ... errant data on guys he threw out stealing deleted--it was in the neighborhood of 34% I always assumed Ted Simmons was a bad fielding catcher because his offensive numbers are stellar.

Can someone shed light on why Ted Simmons gets snubbed?

I'd say a major part of it is that Ted got a rep as a bad defender. That's not quite accurate, as he grades out as a "C" for his catching career by win shares, and that's probably about right. Usually, we look for better defenders at catcher, but I agree his bat makes up for his mediocre glovework. I suspect the writers overemphasized his defensive deficiencies to the point they started to ignore his offensive production. That's stupid, but herd mentality can lead to stupid things like that.

[SavoyBG]

I said Blyleven with close seconds to Dahlen and Sherry McGee.

Why are two obvious non-HOF'ers Larry Corocran and Ross Barnes on this list and not Raines or Simmons??


Raines has only been eligible for a couple of years.

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

I'd say a major part of it is that Ted got a rep as a bad defender. That's not quite accurate, as he grades out as a "C" for his catching career by win shares, and that's probably about right. Usually, we look for better defenders at catcher, but I agree his bat makes up for his mediocre glovework. I suspect the writers overemphasized his defensive deficiencies to the point they started to ignore his offensive production. That's stupid, but herd mentality can lead to stupid things like that.

The most shocking thing of all is that Simmons was 1 AND DONE by the baseball writers; so this wasn't a case where he came close or whatnot. You would think at the very least, he would still be on the ballot and be given a hard look. But no, down the memory hole he went. Apparently, Simmons is the Rodney Dangerfield of baseball.

It's just so bizarre how they vote sometime.

[STLCards2]

I voted for Caruthers...

Maybe a good poll question might be "How many here even know who he is without looking him up?".

A 218-99 W-L record as a pitcher - and a career OPS+ of 133 as a hitter. Though he's generally forgotten, I don't think anyone else on the list comes close.

You greatly underestimate the knowlege of the voters here if you feel that poll would be neccessary. Most here know who he is. Great poll for people outside of here, however.

[RuthMayBond]

Biggest injustices In order

Blyleven, Simmons, Dahlen, McGee,Allen, Santo, Torre, Caruthers

Do I even wanna ask?

[SavoyBG]

IT'S A LANDSLIDE!!!!

17 votes for Blyleven.

Glenn Borgmann and I are high school umpires here in NJ. We had a game together a few years ago and he was telling me about how amazing Bert's curveball was.

[RuthMayBond]

Glenn Borgmann and I are high school umpires here in NJ. We had a game together a few years ago and he was telling me about how amazing Bert's curveball was.Ask him if he remembers this

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1980/B09120CHA1980.htm :bowdown:

[SavoyBG]

Ask him if he remembers this

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1980/B09120CHA1980.htm :bowdown:


I'm sure he would, he didn't have many days like that in the major leagues.

[Freakshow]

This was the order in the final poll in The Ultimate Quest for Candidates.

1. Ron Santo
2. Bert Blyleven
3. Tim Raines
4. Dick Allen
5. Bill Dahlen
6. Minnie Minoso
7. Alan Trammell
8. Paul Hines
9. Ted Simmons
10 Deacon White

11 Sherry Magee
12 Bobby Grich
13 Mark McGwire
14 Joe Gordon
15 Ross Barnes
16 Joe Torre
17 Dale Murphy
18 Stan Hack
19 Andre Dawson
20 Harry Stovey

My #1 vote was and is for Blyleven.

[RuthMayBond]

This was the order in the final poll in The Ultimate Quest for Candidates.

1. Ron Santo
2. Bert Blyleven
3. Tim Raines
4. Dick Allen
5. Bill Dahlen
6. Minnie Minoso
7. Alan Trammell
8. Paul Hines
9. Ted Simmons
10 Deacon White

11 Sherry Magee
12 Bobby Grich
13 Mark McGwire
14 Joe Gordon
15 Ross Barnes
16 Joe Torre
17 Dale Murphy
18 Stan Hack
19 Andre Dawson
20 Harry Stovey

My #1 vote was and is for Blyleven.Hines ahead of Magee,
and Barnes ahead of Dawson, good ones :laugh

[Captain Cold Nose]

Hines ahead of Magee,
and Barnes ahead of Dawson, good ones :laugh

Where were you when the poll was taken? I vaguely recall it.

[Freakshow]

Where were you when the poll was taken? I vaguely recall it.Actually, he voted in that poll. His placing of White, Hines and Barnes in the lowest three spots on his ballot were very anti-consensus.

It demonstrates good mental health that he can be so mirthful about it. :rolleyes:

[RuthMayBond]

Actually, he voted in that poll.Maybe CCN should look before he leaps

<It demonstrates good mental health>

You take that back, I have never been accused of that in my life

[Freakshow]

Maybe CCN should look before he leapsCCN voted in one third of the polls in the UQFC, but not in the final.

<It demonstrates good mental health>

You take that back, I have never been accused of that in my lifeFine, I'll go with the consensus: you're :crazy

[RuthMayBond]

Fine, I'll go with the consensus: you're :crazyI thought that was the ONLY option in THAT poll :crazy

[Captain Cold Nose]

Actually, he voted in that poll. His placing of White, Hines and Barnes in the lowest three spots on his ballot were very anti-consensus.

It demonstrates good mental health that he can be so mirthful about it. :rolleyes:

When was the poll? Like I said, I vaguely recall it. There have been so many polls that those of us who want to participate actually participate as opposed to just criticizing after the fact. When we build our own pedestal . . .

[RuthMayBond]

When was the poll? Like I said, I vaguely recall it.Yet you ask where I was when it was taken

<There have been so many polls that those of us who want to participate actually participate as opposed to just criticizing after the fact.>

I didn't know criticizing wasn't allowed

<When we build our own pedestal . . .>

When you do, you find out I actually DID vote

[Captain Cold Nose]

Yet you ask where I was when it was taken

<There have been so many polls that those of us who want to participate actually participate as opposed to just criticizing after the fact.>

I didn't know criticizing wasn't allowed

<When we build our own pedestal . . .>

When you do, you find out I actually DID vote

I wasn't the one criticizing poll results because it didn't match my view. I honestly didn't remember this poll out of the many I have participated in over the years. I also don't feel the need to point out discrepancies between polls and my views because I don't think just because I voted on it makes it holy writ in stone.

[Freakshow]

When was the poll? Like I said, I vaguely recall it.The final poll in the Ultimate Quest (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79992)for Candidates was conducted last July. Links to all the polls are in the home thread for the UQFC (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=68815).

[Captain Cold Nose]

The final poll in the Ultimate Quest (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79992)for Candidates was conducted last July. Links to all the polls are in the home thread for the UQFC (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=68815).

Thanks. Even if I miss a vote I still appreciate all the effort you put into these. As well as everytone else who puts these popular polls together.

[Paul Wendt]

Color distinguishes the players on this ballot by Cooperstown eligibility and jurisdiction: those not eligible (plain) and those under jursidiction of the BBWAA (bold) and two veterans committees (pre-war and post-war).

Dick Allen
Ross Barnes
Bert Blyleven
tommy bond
Pete Browning
Cupid Childs
larry corcoran
Bill Dahlen
Wes Ferrell
Jack Glasscock
Bobby Grich
Stan Hack
tommy john
jim kaat
Sherry Magee
carl mays
Billy Pierce
Ron Santo
Harry Stovey
Jim Wynn
Bob Caruthers

Judged by their standing at the Hall of Merit, this ballot features a mixed bag. Five of the nominees are not in the Hall of Merit (lowercase): Bond, Corcoran, John, Kaat, Mays. The others were covered in a 2008 series of special elections, one for each class of members who are not in the Hall of Fame, defined by Cooperstown eligibility and jurisdiction (color). Here I intend to follow the Cooperstown classes "as of fall 2008"; see note @ on the discrepancy.

not eligible for election to Cooperstown
3. Ross Barnes

Barnes ranked third in the Hall of Merit special election covering 12 members who are not eligible for Cooperstown. Pete Rose and Grant Johnson ranked 1-2 followed by Barnes and Joe Jackson with a "gap" separating Rose from the others.

pre-1943 or pre-war veterans committee
1. Bill Dahlen
4. Jack Glasscock
10. Bob Caruthers
12. Sherry Magee
13. Stan Hack
17. Harry Stovey
18. Cupid Childs
19. Wes Ferrell
21. Pete Browning
*. Tommy Bond
*. Larry Corcoran
*. Carl Mays

* not among the 21 Hall of Merit members (including Joe Gordon, elected to the Hall of Fame one moon ago)

Deacon White and Paul Hines ranked 2-3 at the Hall of Merit, followed by Glasscock and George Gore. In the numerical standings there were big "gaps" following Hines, Glasscock, and Gore so it is reasonable to say that the election highlighted three, four, or five of the 21 HoM members.

post-1942 or post-war veterans committee
1. Bobby Grich
2. Ron Santo
3. Dick Allen
10. Jim Wynn
*. Tommy John
*. Jim Kaat

* not in the Hall of Merit.

@ There are 9 Hall of Merit members with mlb careers entirely 1943-1987, the scope of last month's "2009" veterans committee election. The corresponding Hall of Merit special election covered 12 members with major league debuts after 1942 and finales before 1990, thus careers entirely 1943-1989. That matches the planned scope of the post-war veterans committee election scheduled for December 2010, not the one held last month (careers 1943-1987). Some important players with 1988-1989 finales are Tommy John and Hall of Merit members Ted Simmons, Darrell Evans, and Graig Nettles; the latter trio ranked 4, 5, and 11 at the Hall of Merit.

In the numerical results there was a "gap" following Simmons at number 4.

not yet eligible as "veteran" players, or mlb finale after 1987
1. Bert Blyleven
* Tommy John

*. not in the Hall of Merit. The Hall of Merit special election covered 12 members with finales after 1989, which does not match the scope of last month's elections for veteran players. If he were a member, the Hall of Merit would have covered Tommy John in the post-war group. See the preceding note.

In the numerical results there was a "gap" following Tim Raines at number 2 and another after number 4. Probably either Raines or Raines, McGwire, and Trammell should be included in the present poll.

[Mike90]

Among eligible players, which player is the most glaring omission from the hall of fame?

Dick Allen
Ross Barnes
Bert Blyleven
Tommy Bond
Pete Browning
Cupid Childs
Larry Corcoran
Bill Dahlen
Wes Ferrell
Jack Glasscock
Bobby Grich
Stan Hack
Tommy John
Jim Kaat
Sherry Magee
Carl Mays
Billy Pierce
Ron Santo
Harry Stovey
Jim Wynn

Definitely should be in, it's a crime they're not:
- Dick Allen
- Wes Ferrell
- Bert Blyleven
- Ron Santo

I would vote for them:
- Jim Wynn: His .250 BA drastically underrates his value. In 1969, he batted only .269 but had an OPS+ of 167 because of his 148 walks (led league) and 33 HRs (5th); he stole 23 bases with only 7 CS and 5 GIDP; also played 149 games in center field. He had a .799 Offensive Win % (2nd). It was a truly great season, probably the 2nd or 3rd best in the NL...he was 15th in MVP voting. Maybe he shouldn't be in the Hall, but he was/is criminally underrated.
- Bobby Grich: Another low BA, great player.
- Stan Hack
- Tommy John
- Carl Mays
- Billy Pierce: Similar to Drysdale and Bunning, who are deserving enshrinees IMO, and better than Hunter, who is not.
- Bill Dahlen
- Sherry Magee

[Calif_Eagle]

I chose Pete Browning but there a lot of guys on this list I'd like to see go in, and some who arent here as well (Freehan, Torre ) If this list was a horse race you could throw a blanket around 10 or so guys at the wire...

[henrich]

I know he's a dark horse this year, but I would love it if Rickey, Rice, Blyleven, and Dawson all got in this year. I voted for Blyleven as is the best eligible pitcher not in the Hall yet.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I know he's a dark horse this year, but I would love it if Rickey, Rice, Blyleven, and Dawson all got in this year. I voted for Blyleven as is the best eligible pitcher not in the Hall yet.

I have no problem with 4-5 guys at a time going into the HOF if they are HOF-caliber players, even if 2-3 of them aren't "inner-circle" HOFers.

If Rice and Dawson should go in, they should go in this year. That Rice is at his last year on the BBWAA ballot doesn't mean that Dawson should have to wait longer (not to mention Blyleven and John).

[mtortolero]

Why Carruthers (2828 IP, 900 K ,597 BB, 218-99, 2.83 ERA, 123 ERA+) but not Tony Mullane (4531 IP, 1803 K, 1408 BB, 284-220, 3.05 ERA, 118 ERA+)?

[STLCards2]

Why Carruthers (2828 IP, 900 K ,597 BB, 218-99, 2.83 ERA, 123 ERA+) but not Tony Mullane (4531 IP, 1803 K, 1408 BB, 284-220, 3.05 ERA, 118 ERA+)?

Because Caruthers spent most of his career as one of the best hitters on his team. As anall-around player, one can make a case that Caruthers was one of the 3-4 best players in baseball for 4-5 years when factoring in his ability to rake with some of the better hitters (not just pitchers) of his day. he was such a good hitter, Caruthers often played in the field to get his bat in the game on off days. Caruthers is a huge HOF oversight.

[Yankwood]

I think Grich was the best all-around 2baseman of his era for at least a decade although hurt a bit. I think he was at least the equal of Joe Gordon...

[NineWorldSeries]

Tony Mullane ?