Who is the Fifth Greatest Yankee?

[mwiggins]

We all know the Yanks are the most storied franchise in baseball history. And I think everyone pretty much agrees that Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, and Mantle would be the four greatest Yankees ever, in varying orders.

BUT, who's next? The thread on the all-time franchise teams got me thinking, and there seems to be quite a drop off after those four. And not really a clear cut answer.

And as this is a poll to determine the fifth greatest Yankee, guys that just spent a portion of their career with the Yanks - like Clemens, Rickey, Winfield, Reggie, and A-Rod - are not eligible. Idealy, this would be a player who spent at least half their career with the Yankees.

Mods - I'm sorry if you feel this should be in the Yankees forum, but I thought it would be much more interesting to get a broader voting population.

[willshad]

I sometimes see Yogi ranked ahead or Dimaggio on all time lists, so I suppose you can argue that Berra is one of the top 4 Yankees . In either case he is probably number 5. I guess you can argue for Ford, depending how you compare pitchers to position players.

[KCGHOST]

I like Berra in this slot.

[parlo]

Berra,,,,, easily.

[mwiggins]

Berra,,,,, easily.

I don't know...it's hard to pick a sub .300 hitter over a guy with 4 titles and 3 Gold Gloves and .316 lifetime batting average. :laugh

[Pghfan987]

Out of the position players listed, I think Yogi Berra is the pretty clear choice for the fifth best Yankee of all-time. But for the sake of argument, I would like to look at Mariano Rivera. Probably many of us (including myself) believe that saves are the baseball stat most overrated by the average fan. Also hurting his chances are the fact that he only pitched ~80 innings a year. But on average, each inning that Rivera pitched was more important than each of the ~215 innings than Whitey Ford pitched. When Rivera came in, the game was on the line every time, and here are the regular season stats he put up:

482 SVS, 1023.7 IP, 2.29 ERA, 1.020 WHIP

As good as that is, his postseason dominance gives him the "bonus points" necessary to compete with Berra.

34 SVS, 117.1 IP, .77 ERA, .751 WHIP.

The Cy Young voters have not overlooked Rivera's pitching dominance simply because it happened 1-2 innings at a time. He finished second in the Cy Young voting once, third three times, and fifth once. We should not be so quick to overlook him, either.


P.S. I actually voted for Berra, but I see someone else voted for Rivera.

[mwiggins]

Good points about Rivera. I've been leaning his way, but it's hard to make the case that even the best closer ever is equal to one of the best catchers ever. As good as Berra was in the post season, his record can't compete with Rivera's in that respect.

[parlo]

Out of the position players listed, I think Yogi Berra is the pretty clear choice for the fifth best Yankee of all-time. But for the sake of argument, I would like to look at Mariano Rivera. Probably many of us (including myself) believe that saves are the baseball stat most overrated by the average fan. Also hurting his chances are the fact that he only pitched ~80 innings a year. But on average, each inning that Rivera pitched was more important than each of the ~215 innings than Whitey Ford pitched. When Rivera came in, the game was on the line every time, and here are the regular season stats he put up:

482 SVS, 1023.7 IP, 2.29 ERA, 1.020 WHIP

As good as that is, his postseason dominance gives him the "bonus points" necessary to compete with Berra.

34 SVS, 117.1 IP, .77 ERA, .751 WHIP.

The Cy Young voters have not overlooked Rivera's pitching dominance simply because it happened 1-2 innings at a time. He finished second in the Cy Young voting once, third three times, and fifth once. We should not be so quick to overlook him, either.


P.S. I actually voted for Berra, but I see someone else voted for Rivera.

Nothing against Rivera,...I think he is an all-time great. But I disagree with the comment that "when Rivera came in, the game was on the line every time"
There are probably about 20 games a season when Rivera appears with the game truly on the line. There are just as many appearances against Kansas City or Baltimore with a 5-2 or a 3-1 lead, and the lower half of the order coming up. We tend to only remember the tie score game against the Red Sox that went 10 innings, but there are also plenty of 4-1 snoozers against Toronto.

[BSmile]

That's really a tough call...but I went with Berra.
I give him extra points for his long, long association with The Yankees. Plus, all the great quotes etc...he's truly an iconic player.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I really thought this one over..................for about ten seconds, Yogi.

[brett]

Good points about Rivera. I've been leaning his way, but it's hard to make the case that even the best closer ever is equal to one of the best catchers ever. As good as Berra was in the post season, his record can't compete with Rivera's in that respect.

Rivera is probably the only true closer who ranks within the top 50 pitchers of all time, and this includes adjusted value based on game leveredges.

Gossage probably has to be at least just outside the top 50 and Wilhelm and Eck are the only other 2 who I would put in the top 50 and that is with value from starting.

Still, I can't imagine Rivera being above the (is it high or low) the bottom end of the 30s, maybe 36-39 at best among pitchers.

Berra has a case for being as high as the 25th best position player ever, and I would probably put him in my top 30 as of today.

[bob]

Berra easily, although its pretty impossible to compare how valuable/talented/great a pitcher is (especially a closer) with a position player.
Berra is one of the best at his position ever, Rivera has a similar claim to being one of the greatest closers. But i would take a HOF catcher over a HOF closer any day.

[csh19792001]

Berra easily.

Jeter shouldn't be dismissed entirely in this conversation; it seems he has been thus far. Yes, he's tremendously over hyped because of the NY Media, and overrated by NY fans in general. That aside...Among guys that were actually full-time shortstops career shortstops, Jeter, only age 34, is already one of the most valuable shortstops of all time:

Career Win Shares: Shortstops

1. Wagner: 656 (should be noted that Wagner actually played fewer games at SS than Jeter has already)
2. Ripken: 427 (Cal played the last 5 years of his career at 3B exclusively)
3.. Bill Dahlen: 394
3. Luke Appling: 378
4. Arky Vaughn: 356
5. Ozzie Smith: 325
T6: Derek Jeter (320)
T6. Barry Larkin

Dahlen, Appling, Vaughn, and Wagner all played in segregated leagues that were probably weaker (perhaps significantly so) than Jeter's AL. It took Barry Larkin- who should probably end up in Cooperstown- till age 40 to compile Jeter's career value through age 34.

Look at where Jeter already falls all time among shortstops in these statistics:


CAREER
MODERN (1900-)
SS

AVERAGE AVG
1 Honus Wagner .327
2 Derek Jeter .316
3 Luke Appling .310
4 Joe Cronin .304
5 Barry Larkin .295

HITS H
1 Honus Wagner 2705
2 Luis Aparicio 2677
3 Luke Appling 2593
4 Cal Ripken 2549
5 Derek Jeter 2535
6 Ozzie Smith 2460

HOMERUNS HR
1 Cal Ripken 353
2 Alex Rodriguez 345
3 Ernie Banks 298
4 Vern Stephens 214
5. Derek Jeter 206

EXTRA BASE HITS EBH
1 Cal Ripken 883
2 Honus Wagner 786
3 Joe Cronin 770
4 Barry Larkin 715
5 Derek Jeter 674

RUNS R
1 Derek Jeter 1467
2 Honus Wagner 1399
3 Cal Ripken 1366
4 Luis Aparicio 1335
5 Barry Larkin 1329

RUNS CREATED RC
1 Honus Wagner 1823
2 Derek Jeter 1464
3 Luke Appling 1429
4 Cal Ripken 1403
T4 Barry Larkin 1377
T4 Joe Cronin 1377

TOTAL BASES TB
1 Cal Ripken 4181
2 Honus Wagner 3856
3 Derek Jeter 3678
3 Barry Larkin 3527
4 Luis Aparicio 3504

I'm not sure where his career OPS+ of 120 falls among guys with long careers that were full time shortstops, but it has to be right up near the top of the list.

He was a bad defensive SS when he was younger, but seemed to improve substantially mid-career.

If Jeter is lucky enough to stay healthy and have a strong decline phase, and can manage to stay at SS, he should end up being one of the best ever at that position and could be on par with Yogi Berra.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I picked Berra, but it was a tough call. Jeter stands a good chance of upending Berra by the time his career ends.

[SavoyBG]

Jeter shouldn't be dismissed entirely in this conversation; it seems he has been thus far. Yes, he's tremendously over hyped because of the NY Media, and overrated by NY fans in general. That aside...Among guys that were actually full-time shortstops career shortstops, Jeter, only age 34, is already one of the most valuable shortstops of all time:

Career Win Shares: Shortstops

1. Wagner: 656 (should be noted that Wagner actually played fewer games at SS than Jeter has already)
2. Ripken: 427 (Cal played the last 5 years of his career at 3B exclusively)
3.. Bill Dahlen: 394
3. Luke Appling: 378
4. Arky Vaughn: 356
5. Ozzie Smith: 325
T6: Derek Jeter (320)
T6. Barry Larkin


I guess you excluded Yount (423) and Banks (332) because they played other positions a lot, but where's Cronin (333), George Davis (398), and Wallace (345) ?

[SavoyBG]

He was a bad defensive SS when he was younger, but seemed to improve substantially mid-career.


Jeter's defensive numbers are poor for almost his entire career. He's been at or near the bottom in fielding ratings in almost every season with all kinds of different fielding systems.

Here's Tango Tiger's Ultimate Zone Rating for Jeter in mid-career, from 2000 to 2003. He ranks DEAD LAST among shortstops:

http://www.tangotiger.net/UZR0003.html

According to tango's numbers, Jeter cost his team 28 runs for every 162 games played during that time, an absolutely pathetic figure.


People talk like this guy has been some kind of great leader as a captain. The facts are that the Yankees have done progressively worse every year since he was named captain in midseason 2003. They have never won a world championship with Jeter as the captain.

2003 - lost in world series in 6 games.

2004 - The "captain" was in charge of the biggest post season collapse in sports history as they blew a three games to none lead against the Red Sox in the ALCS. The only time ANY team ever blew a three games to none lead in ANY post game series, under the "Captain's" watch. The team has not gotten back to the ALCS since this epic choke job. Jeter's nickname should be "Captain Collapse."

2005 - Lost in 5 games in the first round.

2006 - Won division - Lost in 4 games in the first round.

2007 - Wild card - Lost in 4 games in the first round.

2008 - Did not make the playoffs.....

[parlo]

I knew it was only a matter of time before the "Jeter Has Aids" crowd showed up, and started blowing their noses.
There are a lot of things this world needs,... but another thread about how Jeter is overrated is not one of them.