Jim Sundberg

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

While we're talking about the Tony Pena's of the world, what about Jim Sundberg? A three time all-star and 6 time GG winner, Sundberg posted a stellar career OWP of .432 and OPS+ of 89. Sundberg was also an instrumental cog in Kansas City's 1985 World Series championship, hitting .207 / 1HR / 7RBI in the postseason.

So, do you think Jim Sunberg belongs in the Hall of Fame?

[Cowtipper]

Hey, he is number 19 on my list of guys to make a thread about. Thanks for doing the job for me!

[Cougar]

Sundberg has about the same case that Tony Pena has...lots of longevity, superb, memorable defense, and really not much of a stick at all.

[Los Bravos]

^ Bob Boone's on that list, too. A lot more valuable than people often seem to recognize.

[leecemark]

--Boone is at the front of that list.

[KCGHOST]

Definitely "No", but he isn't much different than Ray Schalk.

[Cougar]

--Boone is at the front of that list.

I agree...clearly the best of the breed of long-tenured, defense-first backstops. Boone's a fringe Hall-of-Fame candidate.

The rest -- Pena, Sundberg, Benito Santiago (who had a brief HOF boomlet towards the end of his career) fall short.

[Freakshow]

All players 1600+ games at Catcher and OPS+ <105:
Cnt Player OPS+ G BA OBP SLG PA From To
+----+-----------------+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+----+
1 Jim Hegan 73 1666 .228 .295 .344 5318 1941 1960
2 Brad Ausmus 75 1914 .251 .325 .344 6923 1993 2008
3 Bob Boone 82 2264 .254 .315 .346 8148 1972 1990
4 Al Lopez 83 1950 .261 .326 .337 6607 1928 1947
5 Ray Schalk 83 1762 .253 .340 .316 6217 1912 1929
6 Tony Pena 84 1988 .260 .309 .364 7073 1980 1997
7 Rick Dempsey 87 1766 .233 .319 .347 5407 1969 1992
8 Jim Sundberg 89 1962 .248 .327 .348 6898 1974 1989
9 Benito Santiago 93 1978 .263 .307 .415 7515 1986 2005
10 Rick Ferrell 95 1884 .281 .378 .363 7072 1929 1947
11 Jason Kendall 98 1833 .293 .371 .388 7685 1996 2008
12 Deacon McGuire 101 1781 .278 .341 .372 6932 1884 1912

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

^ Bob Boone's on that list, too. A lot more valuable than people often seem to recognize.

I just don't see Bob Boone as a HOF'er. He was too weak offensively to overcome his strong defense and many games played. He belongs with Al Lopez and Tony Pena; maybe slightly higher for games played credit.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I just don't see Bob Boone as a HOF'er. He was too weak offensively to overcome his strong defense and many games played. He belongs with Al Lopez and Tony Pena; maybe slightly higher for games played credit.

When Bob Boone was nearing retirement, he was spoken of in several articles as a future HOFer. The basis of this was (A) he had broken the record for games caught, and (B) he was an excellent defensive catcher, winning seven (7) Gold Gloves. In addition, he had his boosters; Bill James always plugged Boone, calling him a "pivotal" player, in the sense that Boone, both positively and negatively, impacted the outcome of games he was in. Boone was a player to whom you could attribute something specific to his causing the game to be won or lost. (James offered little proof of this; this was just his observation, but it was picked up on by others.)

Yet, by the time Boone was eligible for induction. his record had been broken by Carlton Fisk. He was no longer special; just another defensive catcher with a long career. Still, Boone is regarded by some as a HOFer, and considered comparable to Schalk.

This thread made me ask why Boone was considered so much better at retirement then was Sundberg. Sundberg also broke Al Lopez' mark (although Boone beat him to it). Boone has one more ASG appearance (4-3) than Sundberg, and one more Gold Glove (7 to 6) than Sundberg. Sundberg's success, however, was far more concentrated; his Gold Gloves were six in a row (1976-81). While neither player was an offensive star, Sundberg's .432 OWP for his career tops Boone's .403.

I've advocated for Boone in the past, but, in reality, it's hard to say that he's that much better than Sundberg. Both were good players, but either, if inducted, would be the worst catcher in the HOF. Only a few of the Frankie Frisch picks would save them from being the worst player in the HOF, but it would be close.

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

I don't care what Bill James says. There's absolutely no way the Bob Boones, Tony Penas and Jim Sundberg of the world deserve induction. My mind could be changed IF it was proven that their defense was so far ahead of the pack, they accumulated significant win shares because of it. For example, if Boone's catching ERA was 1/2 run better than his backup AND if he threw out 65% of basestealers.

We cannot allow players such as Boone with an .408 OWP to enter the HOF just because they had a long career and won a few GG's. Again, perhaps I could be persuaded otherwise if Boone won like 17 GG's because his offense was such a liability, he hurt his team SIGNIFICANTLY. At least with offensive liabilities like Luis Aparicio and Ozzie Smith, they had another calling card, mainly SB's, which created value. Boone had absolutely nothing: He walked below average, had zero power and was slow footed. This is the Hall of Fame we're talking about - these type of player DO NOT belong; period.

If Bob Boone was inducted, it would cheapen the HOF in an similar fashion that Schalk's induction did. But at least Schalk's enshrinment had logic: he was one of the first catchers inducted and came at a time when catcher's standards hadn't been firmly established (at least offensively). There is no excuse to make the same mistake with Boone in the 21st century.

[jalbright]

I don't care what Bill James says. There's absolutely no way the Bob Boones, Tony Penas and Jim Sundberg of the world deserve induction. My mind could be changed IF it was proven that their defense was so far ahead of the pack, they accumulated significant win shares because of it. For example, if Boone's catching ERA was 1/2 run better than his backup AND if he threw out 65% of basestealers.

We cannot allow players such as Boone with an .408 OWP to enter the HOF just because they had a long career and won a few GG's. Again, perhaps I could be persuaded otherwise if Boone won like 17 GG's because his offense was such a liability, he hurt his team SIGNIFICANTLY. At least with offensive liabilities like Luis Aparicio and Ozzie Smith, they had another calling card, mainly SB's, which created value. Boone had absolutely nothing: He walked below average, had zero power and was slow footed. This is the Hall of Fame we're talking about - these type of player DO NOT belong; period.

If Bob Boone was inducted, it would cheapen the HOF in an similar fashion that Schalk's induction did. But at least Schalk's enshrinment had logic: he was one of the first catchers inducted and came at a time when catcher's standards hadn't been firmly established (at least offensively). There is no excuse to make the same mistake with Boone in the 21st century.

Fuzzy didn't come down on Boone's side, either, so the rant is somewhat misplaced. I was a teen/young adult in Boone's days in Philly. He wasn't costing those teams. He wasn't adding as much as you want to see in a HOFer, either, but there's tons of catchers out there who don't hit much better than Boone--and few of them have his defensive skills. Bob Boone was better than most catchers, which is supported by his four all-star selections and the fact he did draw support for MVP in two seasons, not to mention the 7 Gold Gloves. Replacement level for catchers is a mediocre glove and even less bat than Boone, so Boone had value. Remember, he was doing his thing for many playoff teams. OTOH, Boone could have done his thing another few years and he probably still wouldn't have been HOF-worthy.

[Los Bravos]

I just don't see Bob Boone as a HOF'er.Neither do I. I was just agreeing with Cougar's characterization of Pena and Sundberg as excellent defensive backstops w/o much offensive firepower. I added Boone's name and I think Cougar's right that he's the best of that group, but he would probably still fall a bit short for me.

[henrich]

24th all-time Boone 7121
33rd all-time Pena 6353
42nd all-time Sundberg 5698

Sundberg is about equal to Schalk and Bresnahan and Ferrell are all below these guys for me.

However they are significantly behind Lombardi 7802, King Kelly 8462, Campanella 8689, Hartnett 8963, Carter 9006, Fisk 9128, Cochrane 9537, Dickey 11,772, Bench 12,324, Berra 16,703.

Notable Hall of fame futures, Ivan Rodriguez 11,129 (2007), Piazza 9678. possibly Posada 8823 (2007), Torre 8539, Simmons 8532.

Just for some perspective...but to reiterate what others have said Boone is the best of this lot.

[HDH]

Good question... or maybe a bad one. No doubt, he is not a HOFer. I always wondered why he was considered such a good catcher myself as a fan. He was not a bad hitter but, not a good hitter either. He was not great at throwing out base runners as Ivan Rodriguez was but, many ptichers say he was special.

Veterans who had their own catchers such as Fergie Jenkins, Gaylord Perry, Nelson Briles, Bert Blylevin, Frank Tananna, Charlie Hough, Doyle Alexander, and Jon Matlack all said he was great to work with. Obviously, there's allot more to catching than we can see so, I have to at least give reverence to Jim Sundberg. Baseball secrets!

One more: I can always remember when interviews occurred just prior to the all star game with potential star pitchers in the AL. When they were asked who they "want to pitch to: Thurman Munson or Carlton Fisk..." They would always answer "Jim Sundberg..." There's something to that.

[HDH]

I don't care what Bill James says. There's absolutely no way the Bob Boones, Tony Penas and Jim Sundberg of the world deserve induction.
If Bob Boone was inducted, it would cheapen the HOF in an similar fashion that Schalk's induction did. But at least Schalk's enshrinment had logic: he was one of the first catchers inducted and came at a time when catcher's standards hadn't been firmly established (at least offensively). There is no excuse to make the same mistake with Boone in the 21st century.

I agree with you about the Bill James comment. But, as far as catchers go, especially Boone and Sundberg (Pena gave style to throwing ot runners), these catchers called every pitch, set every defense, and worked to psych out the opposition and umpires. Boone, Sundberg, and Pena were a separate breed. They maybe were the last and best of a passing generation. They were special. No stats can judge them because stats aren't supposed to judge them. Its different today.

[sturg1dj]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am a firm believer that there should be more catchers and third basemen in the hall of fame.


I am more of a Freehan supporter, but there are many catchers that meant more to their team than any stat can show.