1938 Best of Baseball election

[jalbright]

This is our third election in this project. The entire rules follow.

This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EST January 16, 2009.

The prior election, and the ballots of the 1937 voters, are in this thread. (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85557)

[jalbright]

Rules

1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance, or only the first vote will be counted. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, I request that you PM me (jalbright) to ensure that I am aware of the change(s) or make a separate posting in the voting thread. You must let me know the players involved in the changes at a minimum, but it would also help if you added their rankings (before and after). I cannot agree to be responsible for monitoring the thread for any changes voters might make. If I catch them, fine, but if I don't and am not notified, the official count will be what I have been notified of, not what is on the thread.

7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or death, whichever comes first. The early death rule applies here as well.

9) Each election will run for two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

10) No one is ineligible, nor are players from any league ineligible. Please note, however, that the standard for including a player is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project. Candidates will not lose eligiblity after becoming eligible except by being elected as either a contributor or player. However, voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

11) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

12) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however.

13) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

14) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

15) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

16) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

17) For any ties straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 3-2-1 or whatever is appropriate system. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, take those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

18) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

19) I reserve the right to hold both 19th century and Negro League special elections in 2000 if we don't have a sufficient number in those categories by then. These elections probably will be limited to voters I feel are appropriately versed on the group of players to be considered. I do wish to only use this as a last resort, however, and only to ensure that those groups received what I regard as at least adequate bare minimum representation. I do not plan on sharing with you what I consider to meet those bare minimum standards, but I think that the numbers I am thinking of are well below the number of candidates that well informed observers believe are well qualified candidates from each group.

20) I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing this standard, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted.

21) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

22) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread

[jalbright]

The 1938 class of newly-eligible players:


Grimes , Burleigh
Haines , Jesse
Kerr , Dickie
Kremer , Ray
Moore , Dobie
Pipp , Wally
Roush , Edd
Sisler , George
Torriente , Cristobal


There are no newly eligible contributors.

[jalbright]

The 1937 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the 1937 election:


Player..... votes points
Delahanty , Ed 19 138
Ewing , Buck 17 123
Connor , Roger 17 92
Baker , Frank 17 70
Plank , Eddie 9 44
Hamilton , Bil 10 41
Brown , Mor 7 40
Keefe , Tim 6 31
Kelly , King 9 24
O'Rourke , Jim 7 23
Wright , George 3 23
Davis , George 5 19
Clarkson , J 4 18
Barnes , Ross 3 15
Santop , Louis 2 10
Galvin , Pud 1 9
Jackson , Joe 2 9
Burkett , Jesse 2 8
Walsh , Ed 2 7
Hines , Paul 2 6
Bennett , Char 1 5
Sutton , Ezra 1 5
White , Deacon 1 5
Grant , Frank 1 4
Start , Joe 1 3
Collins , Jimmy 2 2
Dahlen , Bill 1 2
Ward , John M. 2 2


I'm including the number of people voting for a candidate so folks can judge the strength of candidates for future elections (the more folks already voting for him, the more likely he is to rise quickly)

The contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the 1937 election:


Player...............votes......points
McGraw , John..... 13 48
Wright , Harry...... 15 40
Cartwright , Alexander 8 34
Foster , Rube..... 14 34
Adams , Doc....... 5 17
Hulbert , William.... 6 12
Creighton , Jim..... 3 9
Spalding , Al....... 2 5
Johnson , Ban..... 2 3
Landis , Kenesaw 1 2


I would suggest folks pay attention to these lists of folks getting votes in the prior election, as the new electees are likely to be either the top holdovers or the newly eligible.

[jalbright]

The complete list of eligible players:


Adams , Babe
Archer , Jimmy
Baker , Frank
Bancroft , Dave
Barnes , Ross
Beckley , Jake
Bender , Chief
Bennett , Charlie
Bresnahan , Roger
Brown , Mordecai
Browning , Pete
Burkett , Jesse
Carey , Max
Caruthers , Bob
Chance , Frank
Chesbro , Jack
Childs , Cupid
Clarke , Fred
Clarkson , John
Collins , Jimmy
Connor , Roger
Cooper , Wilbur
Coveleski , Stan
Cravath , Gavvy
Dahlen , Bill
Davis , George
Delahanty , Ed
Doyle , Larry
Duffy , Hugh
Evers , Johnny
Ewing , Buck
Faber , Red
Flick , Elmer
Foster , Rube
Galvin , Pud
Glasscock , Jack
Gore , George
Grant , Frank
Griffith , Clark
Grimes , Burleigh
Groh , Heinie
Haines , Jesse
Hamilton , Billy
Hill , Pete
Hines , Paul
Hooper , Harry
Jackson , Joe
Jennings , Hughie
Johnson , Home Run
Jones , Charley
Joss , Addie
Keefe , Tim
Keeler , Willie
Kelley , Joe
Kelly , King
Kerr , Dickie
Kremer , Ray
Leach , Tommy
Lewis , Duffy
Long , Herman
Lowe , Bobby
Luque , Dolf
Lyons , Denny
Magee , Sherry
Maranville , Rabbit
Marquard , Rube
Mathews , Bobby
Mays , Carl
McCarthy , Tommy
McCormick , Jim
McGinnity , Joe
McGraw , John
McPhee , Bid
McVey , Cal
Mendez , Jose
Moore , Dobie
Mullane , Tony
O'Rourke , Jim
Pearce , Dickey
Pike , Lip
Pipp , Wally
Plank , Eddie
Poles , Spotswood
Radbourn , Charlie
Redding , Dick
Rice , Sam
Richardson , Hardy
Rixey , Eppa
Roush , Edd
Rusie , Amos
Ryan , Jimmy
Santop , Louis
Schalk , Ray
Sheckard , Jimmy
Sisler , George
Spaulding , Al
Start , Joe
Stovey , Harry
Sutton , Ezra
Taylor , Ben
Thompson , Sam
Torriente , Cristobal
Van Haltren , George
Vance , Dazzy
Waddell , Rube
Wallace , Bobby
Walsh , Ed
Ward , John M.
Welch , Mickey
Wheat , Zack
White , Deacon
White , Sol
Willis , Vic
Wood , Joe
Wright , George
Youngs , Ross


The complete list of eligible contributors:

Abe , Iso
Adams , Doc
Bancroft , Frank
Barrow , Ed
Bulkely , Morgan
Cartwright , Alexander
Chance , Frank
Clarke , Fred
Commiskey , Charlie
Conlan , Charles
Connolly , Tom
Creighton , Jim
Cummings , Candy
Dreyfuss , Barney
Dunn , Jack
Elias , Al Munro
Foster , Rube
Gleason , Kid
Griffith , Clark
Hanlon , Ned
Huggins , Miller
Hulbert , William
Johnson , Ban
Landis , Kenesaw
Lardner , Ring
Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
McCarthy , Tommy
McGraw , John
Mendez , Jose
Moran , Pat
Mutrie , Jim
Osborn , Frank
Reach , A. J.
Richter , Francis
Robinson , Wilbert
Selee , Frank
Shibe , Ben
Spalding , Al
Taylor , C. I.
Thayer , Ernest
Ward , John M.
Warfield , Frank
White , Sol
Wilson , Horace
Wright , George
Wright , Harry

[jalbright]

My Ballot:

Players
1. Jim O’Rourke
2. Roger Connor
3. Ed Delahanty
4. Frank Baker
5. Eddie Plank
6. King Kelly
7. John M. Ward
8. Cristobal Torriente
9. Amos Rusie
10. Ed Walsh
11. Mordecai Brown
12. Deacon White

Contributors
1. John McGraw
2. Rube Foster
3. Harry Wright
4. William Hulbert
5. Doc Adams

[jalbright]

The new class has a two nice Negro League candidates in Cristobal Torriente and Dobie Moore, but Dobie's career was sadly far shorter due to a domestic incident. There's also Burleigh Grimes, Edd Roush and George Sisler, all of whom are in the BBF HOF. I don't expect to see much support for Jesse Haines, Dickie Kerr, Ray Kremer or Wally Pipp.

[leecemark]

1. George Wright
2. Buck Ewing
3. Ross Barnes
4. Luis Santop
5. Frank Baker
6. Billy Hamilton
7. Paul Hines
8. John Clarkson
9. Jim O'Rourke
10. Ed Delahanty
11. John Ward
12. King Kelly



1. Harry Wright
2. Ban Johnson
3. Alexander cartwright
4. William Hulbert
5. John MCGraw

[STLCards2]

1.Ed Delehanty
2.Buck Ewing
3.Frank Baker
4.Eddie Plank
5.Roger Connor
6.Ed Walsh
7.Billy Hamilton
8.Tim Keefe
9.George Davis
10.John Clarkson
11.Jim O'Rourke
12. John Ward

Contributors:

1. Alex Cartwright
2. Rube Foster
3. Harry Wright
4. John McGraw
5. Ban Johnson

[BlueBlood]

1. Buck Ewing
2. Ed Delahanty
3. Roger Connor
4. Frank Baker
5. Eddie Plank
6. Jim O'Rourke
7. Cristobal Torriente
8. Tim Keefe
9. King Kelly
10. Mordecai Brown
11. George Davis
12. John Clarkson

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. John McGraw
3. Harry Wright
4. Rube Foster
5. Jim Creighton

[dgarza]

Players
1. Ed Delahanty
2. Roger Connor
3. Tim Keefe
4. John Clarkson
5. Sam Thompson
6. Jesse Burkett
7. Joe Jackson
8. Ross Barnes
9. Jim O'Rourke
10. Eddie Plank
11. George Sisler
12. King Kelly

Contributors
1. John McGraw
2. Harry Wright
3. Al Spalding
4. Kenesaw Landis
5. Rube Foster

[jalbright]

Alexander Cartwright

At the end of the 1937 election, Paul Wendt and I posted questioning Alexander Cartwright's worthiness to be elected as a contributor. I'll repeat those posts, and amplify what I had to say earlier:

Let me again recommend
John Thorn, Four Fathers of Baseball (http://thornpricks.blogspot.com/2005/07/four-fathers-of-baseball.html)
(and his SABR biography of Doc Adams too)

I know Alexander Cartwright has received strong support in the contributor voting. It looks like one of my top five will be elected, so I'll need a replacement. I didn't know much about Cartwright, but I figured if he's getting such strong support, he deserves a look. I did this fully expecting to find reasons to vote for him. What I found was reason to question whether I will ever support his candidacy. I started with a Google search, and quickly came upon an article questioning his involvement with the founding of the game. I dug a little deeper, and came up with the SABR Bio-Project biography on him (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&pid=2205&bid=727), which to my reading, comes down more in the camp of the doubters. I'm open to responses to this well-researched article, but as it stands, I do not intend to ever support Alexander Cartwright. Furthermore, I suggest folks look at this biography to see for themselves whether they think he deserves their support.

The cited articles seem to me to be well researched and supported. I might add that the SABR articles are peer reviewed, and the stuff on Cartwright is by the author of a full volume on him which she condensed. The book is published by the University of Nebraska, which has an alliance with SABR of some sort for such books. John Thorn has been involved in the Total Baseball project, among others. Clearly, we're not talking about rank amateurs spouting off here.

Let me make it clear that my only issue with Cartwright is whether he's worthy of induction in our project, and welcome any submissions of evidence supporting his claim. But, based on the articles Paul and I cited, the case for Cartwright is:

1) He played in some New York Knickerbocker games in the period 1845-1848;

2) In 1848 or 1849, Cartwright went to the West Coast and never had a great deal of influence on baseball thereafter;

3) He eventually went to Hawaii and was a substantial figure there, but this has nothing to do with baseball;

4) He told his grandson many years after the fact stories as to his significant contributions to baseball in that 1845-1848 period;

5) The grandson, when he grew up, wrote a book compiling Cartwright's stories, which seems to have been the support that led to Cartwright's induction into Cooperstown;

6) An examination of sources from 1845-1848 and correspondence from the participants in those events fails to support any claims by Cartwright except that he played in those games.

If that summary, most notably point 6, is accurate, the case for Cartwright is purely a stuffed shirt, devoid of any substance to support his induction. That being the case, I call on Cartwright's supporters either to support his case with some evidence substantiating the stories recounted by the grandson, or to reexamine their own support for his candidacy. Thank you.

[leecemark]

--It has been widely accepted for many years that Cartwright wrote the first formal basball rules, which established the basics of the game that exists today. Its possible that isn't true, but it has not been debunked the way that the Doubleday myth - which even its creators knew wasn't true - has. I see the burden of proof as extirely on those who would argue against his case.

[jalbright]

--It has been widely accepted for many years that Cartwright wrote the first formal basball rules, which established the basics of the game that exists today. Its possible that isn't true, but it has not been debunked the way that the Doubleday myth - which even its creators knew wasn't true - has. I see the burden of proof as extirely on those who would argue against his case.

Have you read the articles Paul and I cited, Mark? They document their search for evidence to support this claim, and show how there's exactly zero evidence from the time or the people there at the time except for the tales of Alexander Cartwright retold by his grandson. That's darned good proof in historical circles. BTW, where's a cite or two in support of your assertion "It has been widely accepted for many years that Cartwright wrote the first formal basball rules, which established the basics of the game that exists today."? I'd love to see them, and the sources they relied on to reach that conclusion.

I might add that the individual who wrote the SABR Bio-project link I have cited is the author of a full book examining the evidence of Cartwright's "founding" of the game, and she summarized that work for the Bio-project entry. I'd say her work plus the fact it is being embraced by SABR speaks volumes in favor of its credibility.

[BlueBlood]

Oversight concerning O'Rourke......just edited him in, dropping Hamilton out of my ballot for the time being.

[jalbright]

Oversight concerning O'Rourke......just edited him in, dropping Hamilton out of my ballot for the time being.

The change is noted. Thanks.

[Dogdaze]

Alexander Cartwright

At the end of the 1937 election, Paul Wendt and I posted questioning Alexander Cartwright's worthiness to be elected as a contributor. I'll repeat those posts, and amplify what I had to say earlier:





The cited articles seem to me to be well researched and supported.

Let me make it clear that my only issue with Cartwright is whether he's worthy of induction in our project, and welcome any submissions of evidence supporting his claim. But, based on the articles Paul and I cited, the case for Cartwright is:

1) He played in some New York Knickerbocker games in the period 1845-1848;

2) In 1848 or 1849, Cartwright went to the West Coast and never had a great deal of influence on baseball thereafter;

3) He eventually went to Hawaii and was a substantial figure there, but this has nothing to do with baseball;

4) He told his grandson many years after the fact stories as to his significant contributions to baseball in that 1845-1848 period;

5) The grandson, when he grew up, wrote a book compiling Cartwright's stories, which seems to have been the support that led to Cartwright's induction into Cooperstown;

6) An examination of sources from 1845-1848 and correspondence from the participants in those events fails to support any claims by Cartwright except that he played in those games.

If that summary, most notably point 6, is accurate, the case for Cartwright is purely a stuffed shirt, devoid of any substance to support his induction. That being the case, I call on Cartwright's supporters either to support his case with some evidence substantiating the stories recounted by the grandson, or to reexamine their own support for his candidacy. Thank you.

Interesting, I'm going to do some reading on Cartwright, then reevaluate my vote on contributers.

[Dogdaze]

I thought I'd highlight Louis Santop for anyone who may like to know more about him and why I feel he's a deserving HOF candidate;

Louis Santop Loftin (Born January 17, 1890 – Died January 22, 1942)
Playing Career: 1909-1926 - Bats Left- Positions: C, 1ST, 3RD, OF, manager

Louis Santop Loftin, aka Louis Santop was an early Negro Leagues star, often catching for both "Cannonball Dick" Redding and "Smokey" Joe Williams two of the hardest throwers in the Negro leagues. Reportedly for a while he was the leagues biggest drawing card and as such made was paid $500 a month, big bucks in those days.

A good defensive catcher, Santop had one strongest throwing arms, and reportedly excelled at blocking the plate. James Riley's biographical encyclopedia writes a story in which Santop would squat behind the plate in pre-game practices and throw the ball to every position in the infield for a full 15 minutes to entertain the fans.

Louis Santop was one of the first great sluggers in the early Negro Leagues. It’s been reported that he hit several home runs over 450 feet during the deadball era, earning him nicknames “The Black Babe Ruth” or “Big Bertha” after Germany's huge WWI artillery gun. From 1911-1914, Santop not only hit for power, but also hit for high averages, James Riley wrote in The Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Baseball Leagues that Santop registered batting averages of .470, .422, .429, and .455 during those years.

In 1917 Santop played in a three-game series against a MLB All-Star team. Facing pitchers Chief Bender and Joe Bush, Santop hit for a .316 batting average in this series. In the 1920 postseason exhibition series against Casey Stengel's All-Stars, a game that included Babe Ruth, Santop went 3 for 4, against Carl Mays and Slim Harris. According to The Baseball Library in 14 exhibition games against white major leaguers, Santop hit .296.

Award winning sports columnist Red Smith once wrote that Santop was “one of the greatest hitters, black or white, of all time.”

Pittsburgh Courier sports writer Rollo Wilson, wrote this about Santop: "When we get around to that all-time All-Star stuff, and someone -- for instance, Rube Foster, with an intimate knowledge of Negro baseball and its players, writes a history of the game, his All-Time team will have as its first-string catcher our boy friend of the Rio Pecos, Louis Napoleon Santop."

Here’s the 2006 HOF study by SABR, on Santop’s available statistics starting at age 30:


Year Teams BA LG BA G AB R H D T HR RBI BB SAC SB E SLG LG SLG Age
1920 Hilldale Giants .280 .250 15 50 9 14 3 0 0 0 4 0 0 4 .340 .328 30
1921 Hilldale Giants .350 .256 39 117 28 41 7 2 6 25 11 4 4 14 .598 .351 31
1922 Hilldale Giants .487 .279 12 39 9 19 3 1 0 0 5 1 0 2 .615 .398 32
1923 Hilldale Giants .257 .277 30 109 16 28 4 1 2 23 3 2 3 4 .367 .377 33
1924 Hilldale Giants .346 .271 58 205 30 71 10 2 5 31 13 5 4 11 .488 .368 34
1925 Hilldale Giants .152 .280 23 33 2 5 1 0 0 4 4 1 1 0 .182 .396 35
1926 Hilldale Giants .355 .270 13 31 6 11 1 0 0 4 2 1 1 0 .387 .376 36

Career Totals .324 190 584 100 189 29 6 13 87 42 14 13 26 0.461


-Louis Santop was inducted into the National Baseball Hall of fame in 2006.

-Santop was elected into Baseball Think Factory’s Hall of Merit.

-He was voted as the 3rd best catcher behind Mackey and Gibson in the Pittsburgh Courier poll.

-Santop ranks 22nd in the SABR poll for all time best players in the Negro Leagues.

-Bill James ranks him the second best catcher from the Negro Leagues.

In John Holway's book, The Complete Book of Baseball's Negro Leagues, he lists players he feels would be the MVP in what he calls the "Fleet Walker Award" for Nel players in the East and West. Louis Santop was selected for the East three times in 1912, 1914 and 1922.

In the 2005 ESPN Baseball Encyclopedia, which James Riley was a contributer, there’s a section about the Negro Leagues where selections for the MVP are listed. They picked Santop as MVP in 1912, 1917 and 1921.

Here’s some online Sources with information on Louis Santop:

Jim Albright has a nice write up of Santop on post # 22 in this link;
http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=26328

Link to BBF archived discussion and lists of NeL MVP awards as mentioned above;
http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=36139

Baseball Think Factory’s discussion with stats on Santop in this link;
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/luis_santop

Baseball Think Factory’s ranking of catchers, Santop was voted 12th best all time;
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/election_results_hom_voters_think_gibson_bench_ber ra_and_carter_are_the_fin/

Riley’s info/stats on Santop in The Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Baseball Leagues;
http://coe.ksu.edu/nlbemuseum/history/players/santop.html

Biography with some stats on Santop from Baseball Reference-BR Bullpen;
http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Louis_Santop

A link to a brief synopsis of Santop’s career with available statistics;
http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/louis-santop-hof.htm

A little info and plaque for Santop from National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum;
http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers/detail.jsp?playerId=506637

Some info and stats for Santop from MLB.com
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/history/mlb_negro_leagues_profile.jsp?player=santop_louis

A short summary with some info and stats for Santop from The Baseball Library;
http://www.baseballlibrary.com/ballplayers/player.php?name=Louis_Santop_1890

[Dogdaze]

On post # 42 in the Best of Baseball Project, 1937 thread, Jim Albright posted a nice write up about Cristobal Torriente as shown below;


Cristobal Torriente
Years played: 1913-1928 (14 Cuban winters)
Main position: CF
All Star selections: 9 time Holway pick
MVPs: ESPN two, James one (beginning in 1920), and Holway none
League champions on: 5 American summers, 4 Cuban Winter
League leading performances: In American summers, led once in average. In Cuba, second in career average and second in career steals, led in homers five times, steals four, hits three, runs four, and average twice.
Expert rankings: 2nd OF in CPDD historian’s poll, third OF in Courier poll, 20th in SABR poll, not listed in Museum poll results, James’ #2 Negro League CF, 67th overall, and all time Negro League Gold Glove selection, third team Clark selection, and on Team #2 of the All-World picks.

Shades of Glory doesn’t report his data, so the best I’ve got on him comes from David Lawrence’s work in an APBA set of Negro League franchise all-stars. He’s rated for the Chicago American Giants, which covers him in his prime of 1918-1925. They have him with a .335 average, .369 OBP and .554 slugging percentage and 24.5 steals per 550 AB with that squad. His Cuban data for the twelve seasons we have extra base hit counts yields a .352 average and .499 slugging. I rank him between Reggie Jackson and Al Simmons.

Here’s Torriente’s statistics as done by SABR for the HOF study below;

Torriente, Cristobal (1913-32--of, p)


Year Teams....................... BA LG BA G AB R H D T HR RBI BB SAC SB E SLG LG SLG Age
1920 Chicago American Giants 0.432 0.25 50 192 29 83 18 7 4 24 19 2 7 3 0.661 0.328 26
1921 Chicago American Giants 0.324 0.256 54 179 36 58 5 10 5 29 29 5 12 3 0.547 0.351 27
1922 Chicago American Giants 0.325 0.279 37 126 35 41 8 1 6 19 20 3 8 0 0.548 0.398 28
1923 Chicago American Giants 0.387 0.277 74 261 69 101 22 5 4 63 44 10 12 3 0.556 0.377 29
1924 Chicago American Giants 0.351 0.271 71 248 56 87 24 6 7 78 42 5 11 5 0.581 0.368 30
1925 Chicago American Giants 0.264 0.28 89 299 47 79 11 7 9 27 54 12 5 3 0.438 0.396 31
1926 Kansas City Monarchs 0.354 0.27 79 291 50 103 19 5 4 31 36 10 12 7 0.495 0.376 32
1927 Detroit Stars ....... 0.315 0.272 80 292 31 92 16 2 6 31 34 10 5 8 0.445 0.376 33
1928 Detroit Stars ....... 0.324 0.276 37 111 14 36 7 3 1 5 4 1 2 0 0.468 0.38 34
1932 Cleveland Cubs 0.268 0.264 10 41 1 11 2 1 0 2 1 0 6 3 0.366 0.34 35


The same statistics formatted better can be found in Baseball Reference, here’s a link;

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Cristobal_Torriente

[jalbright]

Here’s Torriente’s statistics as done by SABR for the HOF study below;

Torriente, Cristobal (1913-32--of, p)

Year Teams AVG. League AVG G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SAC SB E SLG League SLG AGE
1920 Chicago American Giants .432 .250 50 192 29 83 18 7 4 24 19 2 7 3 .661 .328 26
1921 Chicago American Giants .324 .256 54 179 36 58 5 10 5 29 29 5 12 3 .547 .351 27
1922 Chicago American Giants .325 .279 37 126 35 41 8 1 6 19 20 3 8 0 .548 .398 28
1923 Chicago American Giants .387 .277 74 261 69 101 22 5 4 63 44 10 12 3 .556 .377 29
1924 Chicago American Giants .351 .271 71 248 56 87 24 6 7 78 42 5 11 5 .581 .368 30
1925 Chicago American Giants .264 .280 89 299 47 79 11 7 9 27 54 12 5 3 .438 .396 31
1926 Kansas City Monarchs .354 .270 79 291 50 103 19 5 4 31 36 10 12 7 .495 .376 32
1927 Detroit Stars .315 .272 80 292 31 92 16 2 6 31 34 10 5 8 .445 .376 33
1928 Detroit Stars .324 .276 37 111 14 36 7 3 1 5 4 1 2 0 .468 .380 34
1932 Cleveland Cubs .268 .264 10 41 1 11 2 1 0 2 1 0 6 3 .366 .340 35
Career Totals: .339 581 2040 368 691 132 47 46 309 283 58 80 35 .517

The same statistics formatted better can be found in Baseball Reference, here’s a link;

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Cristobal_Torriente

Dogdaze:

If you have Excel to use, and enter the above data in there, I can easily lead you through the rest to get the above data better formatted (or clean it up myself from there). Even so, the data presented loses the first seven years of Torriente's career, which somewhat understates his contributions.

[jalbright]

Interesting, I'm going to do some reading on Cartwright, then reevaluate my vote on contributers.

That's all I ask. Thanks.

As for Santop, he's getting close to my ballot, but isn't there just yet. I will have about 15 catchers when all is said and done (depending on how you count some guys like Deacon White), but I have the almost all of them bunched a bit lower than where we're at right now, and those that are this high or higher aren't eligible yet.

[J W]

Players' Ballot
1. Ed Delahanty
2. Joe Jackson
3. Buck Ewing
4. Frank Grant
5. Eddie Plank
6. Mordecai Brown
7. Frank Baker
8. Ed Walsh
9. Billy Hamilton
10. Jesse Burkett
11. Cristobal Torriente
12. Roger Connor

Contributors' Ballot
1. John McGraw
2. William Hulbert
3. Harry Wright
4. Rube Foster
5. Doc Adams

Santop is the very next name on the queue.

[PVNICK]

Players
1. John Clarkson
2. Tim Keefe
3. Buck Ewing
4. King Kelly
5. George Davis
6. Ed Delehanthy
7. Roger Connor
8. Hoss Radbourne
9. Frank Baker
10. Eddie Plank
11. Jim O'Rourke
12. Monte Ward

Contributors
1. Harry Wright
2. Rube Foster
3. Jim Creighton
4. Al Spalding
5. John McGraw

I decided to scrap Cartwright. Though in 1938 would I have done so?

[jjpm74]

Players:

1.Buck Ewing
2.Frank Baker
3.Roger Connor
4.Ezra Sutton
5.Ross Barnes
6.Joe Start
7. Jim O'Rourke
8. Jimmy Collins
9. Ed Delahanty
10. Cristobal Torriente
11. Deacon White
12. Paul Hines

Contributors:

1. Doc Adams
2. Jim Creighton
3. Harry Wright
4. Rube Foster
5. John McGraw

Not yet on my ballot, but high in my consideration set:

Bill Dahlen
George Davis
George Gore
Heinie Groh
King Kelly
Bid McPhee
Jim O'Rourke
Amos Rusie
Joe Start
Ed Walsh

May eventually vote for:

Jake Beckley
Charlie Bennett
Roger Bresnahan
Mordecai Brown
Max Carey
Bob Caruthers
Fred Clarke
John Clarkson
Jimmy Collins
Wilbur Cooper
Stan Coveleski
Red Faber
Pud Galvin
Jack Glasscock
Burleigh Grimes
Billy Hamilton
Hughie Jennings
Home Run Johnson
Charley Jones
Tim Keefe
Willie Keeler
Tommy Leach
Herman Long
Sherry Magee
Rabbit Maranville
Carl Mays
Joe McGinnity
Cal McVey
Jose Mendez
Dickey Pearce
Lip Pike
Eddie Plank
Charlie Radbourn
Sam Rice
Hardy Richardson
Eppa Rixey
Edd Roush
George Sisler
Ezra Sutton
Bobby Wallace
Ed Walsh
Zack Wheat

[jalbright]

I decided to scrap Cartwright. Though in 1938 would I have done so?

I don't want (and don't ask anyone else) to try and forget/unlearn what they know. For players, the years are a convenience to limit when they become eligible, little more. For contributors, they're sometimes still active (Branch Rickey in 1946, the year before Jackie got to the majors, for example), and I don't want to induct someone in a "year" presaging accomplishments like mentioned above. It will happen, but I don't want to go to age 75-80 or dead for the contributors. The Hall wants many/most of its inductees to be alive at the time, because it's better publicity. It's tricky in those few cases, but otherwise, it's straightforward--go with what you know today.

[PVNICK]

I don't want (and don't ask anyone else) to try and forget/unlearn what they know. For players, the years are a convenience to limit when they become eligible, little more. For contributors, they're sometimes still active (Branch Rickey in 1946, the year before Jackie got to the majors, for example), and I don't want to induct someone in a "year" presaging accomplishments like mentioned above. It will happen, but I don't want to go to age 75-80 or dead for the contributors. The Hall wants many/most of its inductees to be alive at the time, because it's better publicity. It's tricky in those few cases, but otherwise, it's straightforward--go with what you know today.
Will do and thanks for the input.

[Dogdaze]

Dogdaze:

If you have Excel to use, and enter the above data in there, I can easily lead you through the rest to get the above data better formatted (or clean it up myself from there).

Thanks, I would appreciate that offer.

Even so, the data presented loses the first seven years of Torriente's career, which somewhat understates his contributions

Unfortunately SABR is missing the first seven years for Torriente’s stats, but it was definitely not my intention to understate his contributions by posting their stats.

I believe what Shades of Glory references are stats from SABR’s research, and I think when the book was published, Torriente’s SABR stats were not available yet, so I thought I’d post what they came up with for his stats in 2006 for the HOF.

IMO Torriente is one of the greatest players of all time. As you mentioned, Bill James ranks Torriente as the 67th best player all time. From what I’ve read, not only could Cristobal Torriente hit extremely well and with power, he has also been compared to Roberto Clemente in the field. Plus he was fast and led the Cuban league in stolen bases three times.

James Riley wrote, “A complete ballplayer with superb talent, if he were playing today he would be considered "the franchise" of any team on which he played.”

http://www.coe.ksu.edu/nlbemuseum/history/players/torriente.html

A nice story from MLB.com (link to story below) showing how talented Torriente was, happened during an exhibition game against the Giants in Cuba, which included Babe Ruth, Torriente hit three home runs and a double in the game.

Also in 1920, when Torriente was playing for the Winter League Havana Reds, the New York Giants visited, bringing Babe Ruth with them. In one game, Torriente homered in his first two at-bats. When he came up for the third time, two men were on base. Ruth, a star pitcher for the Red Sox, trotted in from right field and demanded to pitch to Torriente, who proceeded to hit a two-run double. Ruth struck out the next three batters, then returned to the outfield. Later in the game, Torriente hit another home run.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060213&content_id=1310746&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

[Dogdaze]

Players:

1. Buck Ewing
2. Mordecai Brown
3. Roger Connor
4. Cristobal Torriente
5. Eddie Plank
6. Tim Keefe
7. Louis Santop
8. Ed Delahanty
9. Frank Baker
10. Ed Walsh
11. Jim O’Rourke
12. King Kelly

Contributors:

1. Doc Adams
2. Rube Foster
3. John McGraw
4. Harry Wright
5. William Hulbert

With the new info on Cartwight, I decided to put off voting for him, at least for the time being. I do plan on reading more on him, but for now have replaced his vote with Harry Wright.

[jalbright]

Dogdaze,

I knew you were giving what data you had on Torriente, and weren't trying to undersell him. My goal in pointing out what I did was to make sure that a casual reader realized that it wasn't complete data (through no fault of your own), so those readers didn't undersell him. Sorry I didn't make that clearer. I should have.

[Dogdaze]

Dogdaze,

I knew you were giving what data you had on Torriente, and weren't trying to undersell him. My goal in pointing out what I did was to make sure that a casual reader realized that it wasn't complete data (through no fault of your own), so those readers didn't undersell him. Sorry I didn't make that clearer. I should have.

Understood, and Thanks.

[jalbright]

We're just one short of a quorum in each election, and have over 11 days to go. We should be fine in that regard.

[AstrosFan]

1. Buck Ewing
2. Ed Delahanty
3. Cristobal Torriente
4. Roger Connor
5. George Davis
6. Tim Keefe
7. Frank Baker
8. John Clarkson
9. Billy Hamilton
10. Jimmy Collins
11. Bill Dahlen
12. Eddie Plank

Contributors:

1. John McGraw
2. Rube Foster
3. Alexander Cartwright
4. Harry Wright
5. Ban Johnson

[Captain Cold Nose]

1. Ed Delahanty
2. Buck Ewing
3. Mordecai Brown
4. Ed Walsh
5. King Kelly
6. Billy Hamilton
7. Frank Baker
8. Eddie Plank
9. John Clarkson
10. Tim Keefe
11. Roger Connor
12. Cristobal Torriente

Contributors

1. John McGraw
2. Alexander Cartwright
3. Al Spalding
4. Harry Wright
5. Rube Foster

[Paul Wendt]

Contributors
1. Harry Wright
2. Doc Adams
3. William Hulbert
4. Rube Foster
5. Ban Johnson

Two fathers and three strongmen.

[Babe is the best]

1. Ed Delahanty
2. Roger Connor
3. Billy Hamilton
4. Eddie Plank
5. Jesse Burkett
6. Buck Ewing
7. King Kelly
8. Mordecai Brown
9. George Davis
10. Jim O'Rourke
11. Tim Keefe
12. Ol Hoss Radbourn

1. Harry Wright
2. John McGraw
3. Rube Foster
4. Ban Johnson
5. Al Spalding

[jalbright]

Another point I'll bring up with respect to the "dates" in this project is that from a strict historical standpoint, there is much we're doing which wouldn't/couldn't have happened at that time. The simultaneous consideration of Negro Leaguers and major leaguers certainly wasn't about to happen before integration of the game--but we're doing it here. Japanese players wouldn't have gotten much consideration at the times they will become eligible in our project (certainly not before Nomo as a MLBer, at the very earliest). Heck, baseball encyclopedias didn't exist until the end of the 1960's, much less the sabermetric analyses which are derived so much from those stores of knowledge. We wouldn't be voting by computer before they were actually invented, much less by internet before its invention.

As I noted previously, player careers will be essentially over before they're eligible, so the historical inaccuracies aren't of much moment. However, for a few contributors who had significant accomplishments at or after their age 65 year, it is an issue. That's the one place I would like to respect the "timeline", and I'll try to point out such cases when they arise. I welcome any assistance the other participants (or lurking readers) may be able to provide in this regard.

[jalbright]

This one's slipping toward the bottom of the first page, so it's due for a bump. We've got a little over eight days to go, and the following folks who have voted in at least one of the first two elections have yet to vote (or complete their ballot)

Mike90*
AG2004
Erik Bedard
mwiggins*
Philkid3*
*-voted only for players

Of course, new voters are also welcome. This crew, however, will receive PM reminders Sunday night or Monday sometime if they haven't voted by the time I get to sending the message.

[jalbright]

1939 New Eligibles

Contributor:
Bill Klem (after him, I have no additions to the contributors until 1943)

Players:
Sparky Adams
Howard Ehmke
Harry Heilmann
Joe Judge
Lee Meadows
Bing Miller
Hack Miller
Herb Pennock
Bullet Joe Rogan
Bill Wambsganss

There is one guy I regard as an unworthy HOFer (Pennock), and he may well not draw much support. Adams, Ehmke, Judge, Meadows, the two Millers and Wambsganss are unlikely to draw much support. However, Heilmann and Rogan will both appear on my 1939 ballot. Depending upon how the 1938 election pans out, I may have only one spot available for the backlog, as it is entirely possible we will elect two guys not yet on my ballot (I think they're worthy, I just don't rate them quite this highly).

[jalbright]

Guys at or above the level I'm voting for now who will become eligible in the 1940's (IMHO):

1940: Babe Ruth
1941: Rogers Hornsby
1942: Oscar Charleston
1943: Lou Gehrig, Frankie Frisch
1944: ----------
1945: Lefty Grove
1946: Turkey Stearnes
1947: Al Simmons
1948: Charlie Gehringer, Carl Hubbell, Paul Waner
1949: Josh Gibson

Since we'll be dropping to inducting three a year after 1940, I'd say the 40's won't have a severe decline in quality of inductees.

[Freakshow]

1. Ed Delahanty
2. Roger Connor
3. Buck Ewing
4. George Wright
5. Jim O’Rourke
6. Cristobal Torriente
7. Frank Baker
8. King Kelly
9. Billy Hamilton
10. John Clarkson
11. George Davis
12. Louis Santop

[bambambaseball]

Players:

1. Connor , Roger
2. Ewing , Buck
3. Baker , Frank
4. Bennett , Charlie
5. Delahanty , Ed
6. O'Rourke , Jim
7. Collins, Jimmy
8. Billy Hamilton
9. Cristobal Torriente
10. King Kelly
11. Ezra Sutton
12. Eddie Plank

Contributers:

1. Creighton, Jim
2. McGraw, John
3. Adams, Doc
4. Wright, Harry
5. Rube Foster

[jalbright]

Only three people who have voted previously in the contributor side of the ballot have yet to vote in either election. There are another five who have either cast his contributor ballot but not his player ballot or who only have voted in the player side yet to vote. We've got under a week to go now, and the races for contributor and the fifth and final contributor to be inducted this year are all tight and could be affected by single ballots.

[jalbright]

A little plug for Bullet Joe Rogan for next election:

Bullet Joe Rogan Elected BBF HOF

Unfortunately, another pitcher/hitter who confounds at least the willingness of the Baseball Think Factory guys to project his data. So I'm stuck with the subjective stuff with Negro League data again. He can point to a lot of support in that realm, though. Consider the following:
1) named a first team pitcher in the Pittsburgh Courier poll selecting Negro League greats;
2) named to the Baseball Think Factory Hall of Merit;
3) inducted into Cooperstown;
4) placed 11th in the SABR poll ranking Negro League greats; and
5) selected among the top six pitchers in Negro League history in a poll of Negro League Museum members.

He was also named the best Negro League pitcher by Bill James for three seasons: 1922, 1924 (tie), and 1925 (tie).

Jim Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Baseball Leagues has a nice writeup on him. A sizeable excerpt from it follows:
An outstanding pitcher with a tremendous fastball, a fine curve and good control, "Bullet" Rogan was a star for the Kansas City Monarchs [ed. one of the greatest of all the Negro League franchises, if not the greatest]. . . The right-hander was a smart pitcher who used a no-windup delivery, a sidearm motion, and always kept the ball down. In addition to his basic pitches, he included a forkball, palmball and spitter in his repertory. A durable workhorse . . . for a decade [who was] rarely . . . releived, this versatile player's value to his team was inestimable. He was also a superb fielder and a dangerous hitter with good power.

He had strong wrists and used a heavy bat. . . . [W]hen not performing on the mound, he played in the outfield to keep his big bat in the lineup. . . [H]e often batted in the cleanup position [ed. for a great team, no less!] and was credited with [the] league high [in] homers in 1922. He consistently hit over .300, compiling averages of .351, .416, .412, .366, .314, .330, .353, .341 and .311 for the years 1922-1930. On the mound [remember, in typically 70-90 game seasons] he registered seasons of 13-6, 12-8, 16-5, 15-2, 12-4, 15-6, and 9-3 for the first seven of those years. . .

[He joined] the Army in the fall of 1911. He remained in the Army through 1919, captaining baseball teams [with the limited opportunities for an Afro-American to make a living as a baseball player, he found a unique way to do it, as did Dobie Moore]. . . In exhibitions against major leaguers, Rogan is credited with a .329 average.

Rogan didn't just join the Army, he played for the 25th Infantry Wreckers. The Wreckers of that time were a heck of a team. They often faced Pacific League teams, and won the lion's share of those games. In 1913, the only team to beat them in 21 games was made up of major leaguers and Pacific League all-stars. They achieved such renown that the Spalding Company offered to sponsor a tour of the team, but the Army declined.

William McNeil on page 205 of Cool Papas and Double Duties added this:
[H]e pitched in the California Winter League with great success. [Ed. this league was one of the first integrated leagues in the continental US in the 20th century and could boast many major league players] Box scores uncovered to date credit him with an excellent 42-14 pitching record a .362 batting average and 30 doubles and 19 homers for every 550 at-bats. Bullet Joe could do it all

His Negro League stats, from Shadows of Glory, expressed in 550 AB and 275 IP form:


games GS CG IP H runs ER ERA.. K BB.. WP.. HB SV W L Pct
40 29 25 275.0 294 112 79 2.59 162 69 5 2 3 22 10 .699

AB runs hits 2B 3B HR RBI BB Sac SB avg obp slg
550 99 186 28 16 12 68 66 15 28 .338 .409 .515



He's one I don't have a major league comp for, as the BBTF guys, as noted above, didn't do a major league equivalent for him. That said, Bob Caruthers was a top-notch pitcher who could really hit and play the field. Of course, Caruthers had nowhere near the longevity of Rogan. Even without considering the 25th Infantry, Rogan's career is about twice as long as Caruther's in every way but IP, and with it, it's more like three times as long. Personally, I'd say Rogan had a career worth considerably more than Caruthers (against whom the only argument is based on the brevity of his career).

[leecemark]

--I definately agree that Rogan belongs in the Hall of Fame. He might ultimately be one of the first 50 we elect (or should elect anyway). I have my doubts about him being top of ballot quality at this point though. One thing Rogan may share with Caruthers is league quality. His was perhaps on a par with the early (read weak) AA leagues Parisian Bob played in. Bullet Joe will make my ballot ahead of Caruthers due to his greater longevity, but Bob is still a long ways from my ballot and Joe is probably a few years away as well.

[jalbright]

Caruthers is a long way from being on my ballot, if he ever makes it. But, if he had twice as long a career while maintaining its average quality, he'd probably be on it already. Ultimately, that's how I see Rogan.

[Paul Wendt]

Caruthers is a long way from being on my ballot, if he ever makes it. But, if he had twice as long a career while maintaining its average quality, he'd probably be on it already. Ultimately, that's how I see Rogan.
Wouldn't that alt-Caruthers be one of the greatest players we have seen?
20% to 40% more wins than Keefe, Clarkson, and Radbourn; a batter like Joe Kelley.

Rogan played a long time, not a short time.

jalbright earlier:
>>Unfortunately, another pitcher/hitter who confounds at least the
willingness of the Baseball Think Factory guys to project his data.
<<

There is or was no MLE for Bullet Rogan at the Hall of Merit because he is an early player whom the HOM elected promptly. Probably he will get a Chris Cobb MLE now, for the purpose of ranking all member pitchers or completing a website (two projects for 2009).

One thing Rogan may share with Caruthers is league quality. His was perhaps on a par with the early (read weak) AA leagues Parisian Bob played in. Bullet Joe will make my ballot ahead of Caruthers due to his greater longevity, but Bob is still a long ways from my ballot and Joe is probably a few years away as well.
early AA leagues? Caruthers debuted in 1884 and his five-season peak coincides with the strongest of the AA's ten seasons.

[Paul Wendt]

Let me tack four to the bottom of my 1937 ballot.

Players
1. Roger Connor
2. Ed Delahanty
3. George Wright
4. George Davis
5. Deacon White
6. Billy Hamilton
7. Jim O'Rourke
8. Bill Dahlen
9. Buck Ewing
10. Paul Hines
11. Mike Kelly
12. Frank Baker

Buck Ewing and Mike Kelly are considered two of the all-time greats, certainly top five places on this ballot. Let It Be.

Contributors (above)
two fathers and three strongmen (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1393766&postcount=34)

[Domenic]

01. Ed Delehanty
02. Buck Ewing
03. Frank Baker
04. Eddie Plank
05. Ed Walsh
06. Roger Connor
07. George Davis
08. Tim Keefe
09. Jim O'Rourke
10. John Clarkson
11. Billy Hamilton
12. John Ward

Contributors:

01. Alex Cartwright
02. Rube Foster
03. Harry Wright
04. John McGraw
05. Ban Johnson

[henrich]

Players:
1. Eddie Plank
2. Mordecai Brown
3. Pud Galvin
4. Ed Delahanty
5. Tim Keefe
6. Frank Baker
7. Billy Hamilton
8. King Kelly
9. Buck Ewing
10. Roger Connor
11. George Davis
12. Ed Walsh

Contributors
1. Cartwright, Alexander
2. Wright, Harry
3. Landis, Kennesaw
4. Foster, Rube
5. McGraw, John

[jalbright]

bump. Less than four days to go.

[jalbright]

BBWAA HOF voting published, and the forum is really hopping. Bump again, second in less than 12 hours.

[mwiggins]

1. Ed Delahanty
2. Buck Ewing
3. George Sisler
4. Billy Hamilton
5. Mordecai Brown
6. Eddie Plank
7. Frank Baker
8. Roger Connor
9. George Wright
10. George Davis
11. Ed Walsh
12. Tim Keefe

[jalbright]

Only a little over a day left in this election.

[jalbright]

We had a decline of three voters. I saw in another thread that AG2004 had computer problems, so I would guess that's why he didn't vote. Two others who voted in 1937 didn't vote this time, but my guess is that it got lost in the shuffle of the early new year (and possibly, between semester break).

We had 18 voters in the player election, and elected Ed Delahanty, Buck Ewing, Roger Connor, Frank Baker and Eddie Plank. The full results are as follows:

Player……………… votes points
Delahanty , Ed 18 175
Ewing , Buck 16 159
Connor , Roger 17 139
Baker , Frank 16 113
Plank , Eddie 13 83
Hamilton , B 12 71
Keefe , Tim 11 65
O'Rourke , Jim 13 61
Brown , M 8 58
Kelly , King 12 53
Davis , George 10 49
Torriente , C 9 48
Clarkson , J 9 46
Walsh , Ed 8 38
Wright , George 4 35
Barnes , Ross 3 23
Burkett , Jesse 3 18
Jackson , Joe 2 17
Santop , Louis 3 16
Collins , Jimmy 3 14
Sisler , George 2 12
Sutton , Ezra 2 11
Ward , John M. 5 11
White , Deacon 3 11
Galvin , Pud 1 10
Hines , Paul 3 10
Bennett , C 1 9
Grant , Frank 1 9
Poles , Spot 1 8
Thompson , Sam 1 8
Dahlen , Bill 2 7
Start , Joe 1 7
Redding , Dick 1 5
Rusie , Amos 1 4
Radbourn , C 1 1


We had 16 voters in the contributor election, and elected Harry Wright. The full results are as follows:

contributor………… votes points
Wright , Harry 16 54
McGraw , John 15 48
Foster , Rube 15 40
Cartwright , A 7 30
Adams , Doc 6 19
Creighton , Jim 4 13
Hulbert , W 5 12
Johnson , Ban 5 9
Spalding , Al 4 9
Landis , K 3 6

[J W]

Three solid elections so far. :applaud: