2009 and Hitting

[Jake Patterson]

From time to time we get a resurgence of discussion from different hitting camps. For the most part this generates good, sound discussion.

For the new forumers – There is a great deal of history between the hitting camps and their differences, history that would take way too long to review in one post. These differences and their ensuing discussions have ranged from constructive debates to all out personal attacks and childish tactics. The former openly accepted, the later deleted and forumers (after several warnings) banned. Some camps feel this is an open attack on their ideas and feel I am biased to a specific way of hitting. After 25 years and nearly 40 seasons as a coach I have learned one thing – there is no ONE way, especially when teaching youngsters. Personally I feel, and have said this many times here, that while we stand neck deep in our own minutia, our students drown.

Recently, we have had a resurgence of members who support a specific style (I can track IP’s - there is no anonymity on the Internet). I suspect this resurgence is also happening on other sites. This is and of itself is good for BBF forumers, as long as the mission of the new (returning) forumers is to seek a better way to teach and understand hitting. The more the merrier. If the primary mission is to cause problems, confusion or issues, then their membership here will be summarily terminated.

I allow a connection between BBF and other sites if those sites support our mission and the owners and members from those sites respect our rules and honor our conditions. HSBBW, SE Hitting, New England Catching Camp, MAXX Training, Jon Doyle, Jim Booth, RPM Pitching, Siggy, etc are all examples. Connections to those sites whose owners who do not respect our rules are considered Persona Non Grata and I highly encourage those who wish to promote those sites to leave BBF and join those sites. If you truely care about the sport you will learn more with like minds.

I, like you, am here to learn. I could care less who the most popular guru is or why. I take from all and apply where necessary. I will not babysit threads and all new (returning) forumers have all been warned.

I greatly encourage your thoughts and ideas, but they must be articulated under our rules. Maybe we can start the new year on a better foot. Remember we all share a common thread - love of the game.

Happy New Year,
Jake

[callyjr]

With all due respect and believe me I have respect. Could you go into more detail when its ok to talk bad about one guru's product or another persons ideas. I think the board is often confused when and why you decide to delete things. I know I have been very frustrated to have typed something that defends a position and have it be gone the next day. Other then threats and language I am unsure how you can decide what is acceptable or not? Honest public questions...

Thanks for having the board, its been great entertainment

Cally

[Jake Patterson]

We have reviewed this numerous times. But I'll try to answer these questions again.

With all due respect and believe me I have respect. Could you go into more detail when its ok to talk bad about one guru's product or another persons ideas. Talking about ideas, techniques and methods are never an issue if done within the site's policy.

I think the board is often confused when and why you decide to delete things. I know I have been very frustrated to have typed something that defends a position and have it be gone the next day. Other then threats and language I am unsure how you can decide what is acceptable or not? It is obvious that you are unsure. You have asked this question numerous times in one form or another. I would be happy to further discuss... As I offered before... send me a PM with your phone number and I would be happy to discuss. We do not seem to be making any ground via posts.

Honest public questions...Asked and answered several times. I suggest we talk over the phone.

Thanks for having the board, its been great entertainment Maybe this is where the disconnect exists. I view the board as a place for us to learn something about a sport we all love to teach and enjoy. I do not view the board as "entertainment." For online entertainment I would recommend Eteamz or a site along those lines.

[mnh999]

Jake, kind of a follow up on callyjr's post...

I can see no problems with the what you wrote. Sounds good to me and let's keep the discussion about to the issues.

But I would ask about the consistentcy in how the rules are applied. You've even admitted to me that you problably do allow more latitude to some posters. It's a private site and I will respect the rules. I just think the rules/guidelines would mean more if they were more consistently applied to everyone.

JMO.

thanks and happy new years to all.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake, kind of a follow up on callyjr's post...

I can see no problems with the what you wrote. Sounds good to me and let's keep the discussion about to the issues.

But I would ask about the consistentcy in how the rules are applied. You've even admitted to me that you problably do allow more latitude to some posters. It's a private site and I will respect the rules. I just think the rules/guidelines would mean more if they were more consistently applied to everyone.

JMO.

thanks and happy new years to all. Allowing the same latitude to those who have respected the rules and the site for years as those who have been banned several times because of constant policy violations will not happen.

[mnh999]

Allowing the same latitude to those who have respected the rules and the site for years as those who have been banned several times because of constant policy violations will not happen.

OK. It's your site and your rules. Thank you for being honest about rules not being enforced consistently with everyone. At least we all now better understand the environment.

[callyjr]

Maybe this is where the disconnect exists. I view the board as a place for us to learn something about a sport we all love to teach and enjoy. I do not view the board as "entertainment." For online entertainment I would recommend Eteamz or a site along those lines.


life is not this serous Jake, If its not entertainment then we shouldn't be doing it. I also view the board as a place to learn however I also want you to understand where some of us come from when it comes to the board. I have spent a great amount of time on this board at times, I enjoy it and thats why I am here. My whole point is to try and get you to loosen up a little.

Have a great day,

[Jake Patterson]

life is not this serous Jake, If its not entertainment then we shouldn't be doing it. I also view the board as a place to learn however I also want you to understand where some of us come from when it comes to the board. I have spent a great amount of time on this board at times, I enjoy it and thats why I am here. My whole point is to try and get you to loosen up a little.

Have a great day,We should talk... My wife would not agree with your assessment of my level of seriousness.

[CoachB25]

Jake does an exceptional job here. Jake, my Wife would also agree. Having received a phone call the other night, my Wife's first question was who's suing us now? The average poster really doesn' know or care about what some of us (moderators) have to do in order to keep these sites up and running. I never thought that when I agree to moderate on another site that I'd have to put a lawyer on retainer. Of course I'm going to get my money's worth. It goes far beyond even that.

Jake you have done a great service for all of us. I appreciate the efforts and friendship. FYI, to all others, Jake knows that I understand if he has to delete any of my posts and or discipline me that I do understand. Heck, I've turned myself in before when I've crossed the line. I don't believe any of it should ever be personal although it is impossible at times feeling otherwise.

[Mark H]

Would be nice if feelings of animosity were never the underlying motivation. With most groups, that's not a problem. Would be nice if intellectual honesty always prevailed. With most groups that's not a problem. Those would be my rules. In a difficult environment, Jake does a great job.

[Jake Patterson]

MNH,
Your response ...
OK. It's your site and your rules. Thank you for being honest about rules not being enforced consistently with everyone. At least we all now better understand the environment.
would indicate you either do not see the difference or are bating an arguement we will not have. I would suggest you re-read the following:
Originally Posted by Jake Patterson
Allowing the same latitude to those who have respected the rules and the site for years as those who have been banned several times because of constant policy violations will not happen. If you still feel the same latitude should apply to members in good standing as those who have demonstrated an inability to follow the policies, then I would suggest you participate in other sites. Send me a PM and I can send you some suggestions.

[kylebee]

Jake,

You have always done well by me. Though I have disagreed with you in private about certain members, I respect your work and understand how difficult (not to mention thankless) of a job this can be.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake,

You have always done well by me. Though I have disagreed with you in private about certain members, I respect your work and understand how difficult (not to mention thankless) of a job this can be.
Thank you Kyle.

[Jake Patterson]

I moved this here:
It is apparent there will be few answers to Board's question so I will delete that thread per Board's request.
Jake

I do not want to take from Board's thread but,


Originally Posted by Kevkey
I believe this site should be an open exchange of ideas by posters, not a few posters parroting or promoting certain swing instructors.

Kev, I could not agree more... If you truly believe in improving and understanding the process here then I would suggest several things:

1. Conduct a search here at BBF on Epstein, Yeager, Mankin, Dixon, DMac, Marshall, Williams, etc., etc. and develop a sense of the number of posts on each and read. This should give you a sense of what is really happening versus what many would like you to believe. Form your own opinion based on facts and numbers. "Open" ideas are always welcomed, contentious behavior is not.

2. Read the thread entitled 2009 and Hitting. My position relative to members in good standing versus Persona Non Grata and supporting sites versus non supporting sites is clearly stated. If you have questions send me a PM.

3. I have offered my phone number to approximately 6 forumers recently with concerns in the spirit of better understanding what it is we are trying to accomplish here at BBF. No one has yet to call. If you wish to talk I will send you my number. I, like many here, am just a regular guy who has journeyed far along the baseball path. Unlike some, I have completed my very long journey after participating as a player, dad, coach, clinician, author and fan. As a Coach I have about 40 seasons under my belt. This, in and of itself means little so take from me what you want and discard what you feel won't work. After raising two boys in baseball I have found the connection baseball gave us is the reason we do what we do.

4. Free for all sites don't work. Eteamz is a good example of a failed site. This, in my opinion, is mostly due to their inability or unwillingness to moderate. Site owners have every right to dictate the site rules. It is their dime that supports the site and the endeavor can be expensive. Why should a site have to constantly fight someone who is only here to argue and not discuss?

5. Forumers are not privied to posts that are deleted by moderators. And assumptions that moderation is one-sided is wrong. While I do not like to discuss PM's on the open site, BM has already offered that he has received PM's from me due to edits and deletions of his posts, as have others to include those who support PCR. Many who are here to learn/teach accept and understand the change and move on. BM was gracious enough to question the reason, but accepted it as BBF's right.

Last, we are not a quantity based site. The quality of the discussion is more important to us than the number of posts. And I would offer that we are the largest in the world for this reason. Also, are members treated fairly... I will tell you this. Every new forumer is welcomed and treated the same. They are given the privilege of participating until they violate that privilege. Every new member reads and electronically signs a policy agreement and they are fully aware of the rules, there should be no surprises. I openly admit closely scrutinizing those who violate or skirt the policies. I cannot read everything and spend little time on those who have proven themselves over time.

Again, if you have further questions send me a PM and I will contact you by phone. I'm just and old coach, nothing more.

Any further discusson on the above should be done by PM to me as I do not want to take away from Board's thread. If we generate a reasonable discussion I will create a new thread.
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