View Full Version : Thoughts on this swing
Like to hear some thoughts on this swing.
http://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/UnknownHitter.gif
EL,
BoardMember
12-30-2008, 07:39 PM
Like to hear some thoughts on this swing.
EL,
I cleaned it up for you E. Too many duplicate frames.........
http://i39.tinypic.com/34t4sw6.gif
BM,
that look better thanks!!
EL,
Jake Patterson
12-30-2008, 07:54 PM
Erik,
what do you think of the rearward weight shift after swing completion? Is this something natural for you?
OHdad
12-30-2008, 07:54 PM
I think Teacherman would like a lot things going on in this swing...Erik what's your take?
Erik,
what do you think of the rearward weight shift after swing completion? Is this something natural for you?
Jake,
I think the rearward weight shift is related to having more weight on the back leg from the start. I would say this is natural I get this on most of the swings now. I didn't like where my center of weight was. I was losing power and picked up on this in my students also. I went back to getting the weight/head on the back leg. I really didn't realize how much this effected my power.
EL
I think Teacherman would like a lot things going on in this swing...Erik what's your take?
OHdad,
nice to hear from you again. I think there's some things that Teacherman would like in this swing.
EL,
Like to hear some thoughts on this swing.
http://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/UnknownHitter.gif
EL,
Against decent pitching would you consider yourself a pull-hitter,spray, or opp field hitter? Do you prefer high and in pitches low and out,or....? What pitches give you trouble? Your powerful swing reminds me a little of Bonds. Do you consider yourself top hand dominant, bottom, or neither?
Against decent pitching would you consider yourself a pull-hitter,spray, or opp field hitter? Do you prefer high and in pitches low and out,or....? What pitches give you trouble? Your powerful swing reminds me a little of Bonds. Do you consider yourself top hand dominant, bottom, or neither?
omg,
I would consider myself a hitter that has power but understands how to work gap to gap. I like the ball over the plate. How I set up dictates this IMO.The pitches I feel give me trouble are the pitches the pitcher hides very well. I train to be good with both hands and arms. I believe they work together with the body.
EL,
Stealth
12-30-2008, 08:43 PM
Good hands!:clapping
omg,
I would consider myself a hitter that has power but understands how to work gap to gap. I like the ball over the plate. How I set up dictates this IMO.The pitches I feel give me trouble are the pitches the pitcher hides very well. I train to be good with both hands and arms. I believe they work together with the body.
EL,
What about the top hand release? Is that practiced, did it just occur on that swing, or you never even think about it? When I see your swing my first thought is to be reminded how important physical strength is. Bonds DOUBLED his strength at 35 or so and this was why he had those crazy numbers.
What about the top hand release? Is that practiced, did it just occur on that swing, or you never even think about it? When I see your swing my first thought is to be reminded how important physical strength is. Bonds DOUBLED his strength at 35 or so and this was why he had those crazy numbers.
omg,
the top hand release is the effect of working to develop it. This has become just natural now.
EL
omg,
the top hand release is the effect of working to develop it. This has become just natural now.
EL
Why did you feel the need to develop it? Improve your plane? Or was your top hand hooking? When I look at your swing I se an aluminum bat, doubles hitting swing that will pound most pitching. A talented pitcher may be able to get you up and/or in, climb the ladder maybe. You grip that bottom hand firmly and I believe your bottom arm dominates your swing. I don't know that I would change anything as you are probably ver successful in your league.
Why did you feel the need to develop it? Improve your plane? Or was your top hand hooking? When I look at your swing I se an aluminum bat, doubles hitting swing that will pound most pitching. A talented pitcher may be able to get you up and/or in, climb the ladder maybe. You grip that bottom hand firmly and I believe your bottom arm dominates your swing. I don't know that I would change anything as you are probably ver successful in your league.
omg,
Why did you feel the need to develop it?
I developed the front arm to stay away from the body and get extension throughout the swing. The top hand if you keep it on for the whole ride will break down the front arm. This can still work for a hitter but it clearly will cut the extension. I just have the desire to build a better swing.
When I look at your swing I se an aluminum bat, doubles hitting swing that will pound most pitching.
This swing produces more power and is just another tool in the box. I have the batspeed for the long ball but I will take the doubles all day long.
A talented pitcher may be able to get you up and/or in, climb the ladder maybe.
I really work hard to seal those holes you talk about. I train to adjust to these pitches. I love the battle with the talented pitcher this is what it's all about.
EL
kylebee
12-31-2008, 08:56 AM
I slowed it down during a few phases of the swing:
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/53602/erik.gif
Looks like you could do a bit better job of creating "stretch" during the back leg push / stride portion of the swing before the front foot blocks. Yeager refers to this as Lead Arm Extension. I think you'll add even more power if you do that.
But overall the swing looks very compact and very powerful.
omg,
Why did you feel the need to develop it?
I developed the front arm to stay away from the body and get extension throughout the swing. The top hand if you keep it on for the whole ride will break down the front arm. This can still work for a hitter but it clearly will cut the extension. I just have the desire to build a better swing.
When I look at your swing I se an aluminum bat, doubles hitting swing that will pound most pitching.
This swing produces more power and is just another tool in the box. I have the batspeed for the long ball but I will take the doubles all day long.
A talented pitcher may be able to get you up and/or in, climb the ladder maybe.
I really work hard to seal those holes you talk about. I train to adjust to these pitches. I love the battle with the talented pitcher this is what it's all about.
EL
Switch hitter? I thought the last vid I saw of you you were a rightie? How do you reconcile "extension" and "connection"? Its a topic that Chris brings up alot. jima
Encinitas
12-31-2008, 10:22 AM
Looks like you could do a bit better job of creating "stretch" during the back leg push / stride portion of the swing before the front foot blocks. Yeager refers to this as Lead Arm Extension. I think you'll add even more power if you do that.
Actually KyleB Lead Arm Extension isn't necessary. Erik has good early batspeed similar to Tulo.
http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/tulo07hmrside.gif http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/tulo07slo.gif
I slowed it down during a few phases of the swing:
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/53602/erik.gif
Looks like you could do a bit better job of creating "stretch" during the back leg push / stride portion of the swing before the front foot blocks. Yeager refers to this as Lead Arm Extension. I think you'll add even more power if you do that.
But overall the swing looks very compact and very powerful.
I agree and thanks for slowing it down. How would you teach and train for what you call increased "stretch"? Isn't this just a natural thing limited by body type and maybe talent?
ShawnB
12-31-2008, 10:26 PM
Erik,
Basically I would call it a upper body driven swing.
Anyone can make it "look" pretty good, but if your asking how I would compare it to Pro, I would say your using the the hands and arms or your a upper body dominate hitter.
I think your a little to rigid with the arms/hands (stance/stride), caused by using them as the main power generation, or what your going to do when the swing starts.
Some hitters might have an exaggerated follow through, I think yours is caused from the constant supply of power from the upper body which creates momentum and a never ending follow through. There's no deceleration in the swing.
This is just what I think watching it in real time, we could do an analysis or a comparison.
I think you could improve in many areas, one being the actual load of the back leg and hips.
What I would do, is take a swing, and then evaluate the effort level, and where the effort is coming from. Try to stay relaxed and "let" the body/ muscles produce the swing, without "you" trying to help to much. Basically don't get in the way. Step back after a few swings, and re-evaluate, your swings.
Similar to the same thing hitters do in every at bat, clear your head and mind, step back, and then take another swing. Always trying for the least amount of effort (and effort being you trying to generate the power) with the greatest return. Don't think about what you might consider being explosive or powerful.
Kyle,
I agree with you on some level, like seeing the arms/hands to locked in from the start as you mentioned. Although I believe this directly related to being an upper body hitter. There is tension, even if he does not realize it because I feel he is upper body dominate.
Erik,
Basically I would call it a upper body driven swing.
Anyone can make it "look" pretty good, but if your asking how I would compare it to Pro, I would say your using the the hands and arms or your a upper body dominate hitter.
I think your a little to rigid with the arms/hands (stance/stride), caused by using them as the main power generation, or what your going to do when the swing starts.
Some hitters might have an exaggerated follow through, I think yours is caused from the constant supply of power from the upper body which creates momentum and a never ending follow through. There's no deceleration in the swing.
This is just what I think watching it in real time, we could do an analysis or a comparison.
I think you could improve in many areas, one being the actual load of the back leg and hips.
What I would do, is take a swing, and then evaluate the effort level, and where the effort is coming from. Try to stay relaxed and "let" the body/ muscles produce the swing, without "you" trying to help to much. Basically don't get in the way. Step back after a few swings, and re-evaluate, your swings.
Similar to the same thing hitters do in every at bat, clear your head and mind, step back, and then take another swing. Always trying for the least amount of effort (and effort being you trying to generate the power) with the greatest return. Don't think about what you might consider being explosive or powerful.
Kyle,
I agree with you on some level, like seeing the arms/hands to locked in from the start as you mentioned. Although I believe this directly related to being an upper body hitter. There is tension, even if he does not realize it because I feel he is upper body dominate.
ShawnB,
Thanks for your thoughts. I'm not sure we see and feel the same things in a swing. This swing isn't dominated by the upper half. I guess I should explain a little about my approach and you know what was the conditions for this swing. What is hard to see in this clip is the distance of my front arm to the body, how much stretch is being created in the body and lower half mechanics. I like where my hands are at launch this should give you an idea of the amount of stretch the hands line past the back shoe. Take a look where MLB hitters get the hands set to launch below look below in the 2 clips. Take a closer look where my lead elbow is past the belly button. This clip might be to distorted for some to clarify. In the future I will try to provide a clearer perception. The lower half IMO provides precise timely motions, and leverages which unloaded correctly contributes to force. This swing here it was a 3-1 fast ball count man on third. What would you be thinking??
EL
BoardMember
01-01-2009, 12:58 AM
Actually KyleB Lead Arm Extension isn't necessary. Erik has good early batspeed similar to Tulo.
http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/tulo07hmrside.gif http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/tulo07slo.gif
So true Enc.
Eric actually experimented with more lead arm extension and it slow'd his swing down......
Also created some cast if I recall.
One down side of LAE is the need to "be quicker" because of the length of the radius, thus creating some possible problems in a swing that DON'T exist.....
Shawn may be missing the lower half because of the black pant on the dark background.
Most of us here know that Eric was touted as having on of the better bottom half moves.........I don't thinks that's changed........:D
ShawnB
01-01-2009, 12:01 PM
Eric,
If the main concern was or thought was to get the man from third home, then anything goes. Although, your effort level might be to high, and you can achieve the same thing with staying relaxed.
The clothing does affect what we can see.
How often do you exercise, and have you done any core training (and I'm not just talking about the abs)?
Because, IMO, trying to perfect a swing with working on mechanics alone does not help. And then of course there's the question of how old you are and the lose of skills, some would say we lose elasticity in our muscles. And that depends on age and not being young and doing stupid things like my young nephew who is always testing the body and muscles (stuff like jumping over something, or jumping over/down the stairs, or how far, or jumping down something, how close can we get to the rim, I remember jumping off of my roof in 3rd grade, it wasn't extremely high).
Ted Williams was 42 when he retired, and I think it was around 1962, in 1966 he made a video which I have and he could still swing the bat well. In 1968 he wrote the Science of batting in Sports Illustrated (which I also have, but my old cat thought it would be fun to tear it up, even though I had it in my book shelf, so there are some pages missing as he tore up Ted's article) and later used the same pictures and much of the same material in 1970 in his book. So he was I think 46 in his first video, and around 48 when the pictures for his book were taken. And I think his next video, which followed the same theme of the book, and even creating the same things showed in the pictures of his book was done around 1972, so that would have made him around 52. And in his video the Science of hitting, he had completely lost it. He was over weight and out of shape, and compared to his first video in 1966, his swing really isn't a good example of anything in the 1972 video. If he had done what he showed in the 1972 video in the 1966 video, he could have demonstrated what he tried to show in 1972.
It's a little strange that in the 1966 video he just basically stumbled through the video, with no real direction on how to swing. Yet two years later he wrote the the Science of batting in Sports Illustrated that had direction and he made the pictures seen in his book.
There are reasons why I called it an upper body dominate swing. And after reading some of your thoughts on the swing, I would say your achieving your goal. And I would also say your doing what has been called end gaining, and I don't think your as tuned into the process as you could be.
ShawnB,
There are reasons why I called it an upper body dominate swing. And after reading some of your thoughts on the swing, I would say your achieving your goal. And I would also say your doing what has been called end gaining, and I don't think your as tuned into the process as you could be.
I'm listening and interested in your process of determining this conclusion continue. Explain what you have percieved by this clip that concluded how I have trained my body and arms to work together with a bat. Please define my goals from what I communicated.
EL,
ShawnB
01-01-2009, 04:48 PM
Erik,
I thought you said something different in one post.
I train to be good with both hands and arms. I believe they work together with the body.
You did say this however and I believe you are using more of the hands and arms then the body. You said your goal was to be good with the arms and hands, while they work with the body.
And I would state it a completely different way. I would state the goal is to create a live upperbody/bat, just like in pitching. And to do this they must receive energy, to make them live and electric.
And while form is important, you must allow the brain/body to do it's thing, like how it estimates where the ball will end up and intersects the path with the barrel.
You might start off by training the arm/hands to work with the body. And while we could say this is true. I think your focus is more on the upperbody, your awareness of the body and process is not being developed.
If we break the swing down, you almost completely plant the front foot before the lowerbody begins. And your tilting back with the body weight at the start, and somewhat shift to start the lowerbody and swing. All I see is some attempt to use the legs/hips without any real connection to the arms/hands, I could say you have no torso because I don't see you using it to create and transfer the energy into the arms. You just use the lower body a little and take off with using the arms.
You said you lost power because you head wasn't over your backside. This might be true because this helps an upper body dominate hitter, they shift everything forward as they swing. It very well might give you more power.
And it's very hard to learn to tricks, it's not impossible, to re-wire the brain, although it took me a long time to get over some of the same stuff. And I wasn't swinging enough, and try as I did I was still unaware of the effort level of the upperbody. It wasn't until I remembered when someone was actually throwing me BP, when your coaching this hardly ever happens, and I was trying to hit the ball for distance. After about 5 swings and not getting the results, I remember stepping back, completely changing my thought process (such as trying to hit the ball hard and far), and taking a perfect swing without any tension or effort level on my part and achieving my goal.
And that is what I mean when I said your end gaining, your focus on using the arms/hands is not allowing the body or the process to take place.
If a trainer was to watch this swing, he might say you have a very weak core. And this might be true and training might help. It's also true that you simple are not allowing a more natural swing, because your controlling the swing with your arms and hands. I'm one that believes, that you have tension you don't even know you have in the upper body. It's hard to transfer energy into something that is creating energy itself and has to much tension.
I hope that explains why what I see is a nice upper body swing.
There are other clues, I can share with you. and we could do a comparison or two. I see the tension, I see it building and I see it taking over. But, the clip quality is somewhat poor, to much blurring before and during contact, to much clothing. And I don't know if you do this on every swing, or just this one, I bet you do it more often then not.
Is this as far as you go in the follow though, or are you having problems with it going even farther and spinning you around a little sometimes? If we were to see this same swing, is there even more follow through?
Erik,
I thought you said something different in one post.
You did say this however and I believe you are using more of the hands and arms then the body. You said your goal was to be good with the arms and hands, while they work with the body.
And I would state it a completely different way. I would state the goal is to create a live upperbody/bat, just like in pitching. And to do this they must receive energy, to make them live and electric.
And while form is important, you must allow the brain/body to do it's thing, like how it estimates where the ball will end up and intersects the path with the barrel.
You might start off by training the arm/hands to work with the body. And while we could say this is true. I think your focus is more on the upperbody, your awareness of the body and process is not being developed.
If we break the swing down, you almost completely plant the front foot before the lowerbody begins. And your tilting back with the body weight at the start, and somewhat shift to start the lowerbody and swing. All I see is some attempt to use the legs/hips without any real connection to the arms/hands, I could say you have no torso because I don't see you using it to create and transfer the energy into the arms. You just use the lower body a little and take off with using the arms.
You said you lost power because you head wasn't over your backside. This might be true because this helps an upper body dominate hitter, they shift everything forward as they swing. It very well might give you more power.
And it's very hard to learn to tricks, it's not impossible, to re-wire the brain, although it took me a long time to get over some of the same stuff. And I wasn't swinging enough, and try as I did I was still unaware of the effort level of the upperbody. It wasn't until I remembered when someone was actually throwing me BP, when your coaching this hardly ever happens, and I was trying to hit the ball for distance. After about 5 swings and not getting the results, I remember stepping back, completely changing my thought process (such as trying to hit the ball hard and far), and taking a perfect swing without any tension or effort level on my part and achieving my goal.
And that is what I mean when I said your end gaining, your focus on using the arms/hands is not allowing the body or the process to take place.
If a trainer was to watch this swing, he might say you have a very weak core. And this might be true and training might help. It's also true that you simple are not allowing a more natural swing, because your controlling the swing with your arms and hands. I'm one that believes, that you have tension you don't even know you have in the upper body. It's hard to transfer energy into something that is creating energy itself and has to much tension.
I hope that explains why what I see is a nice upper body swing.
There are other clues, I can share with you. and we could do a comparison or two. I see the tension, I see it building and I see it taking over. But, the clip quality is somewhat poor, to much blurring before and during contact, to much clothing. And I don't know if you do this on every swing, or just this one, I bet you do it more often then not.
Is this as far as you go in the follow though, or are you having problems with it going even farther and spinning you around a little sometimes? If we were to see this same swing, is there even more follow through?
ShawnB,
1.although it took me a long time to get over some of the same stuff.
Please post a clip to verify!
2.Can you also provide a swing that supports your thinking on the lower half linked with the upper half?
3. I can tell you that you aren't describing my feelings during this swing.
4. What would you change about this swing?
5. How would you go about training these changes
6. http://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/Hamilton4.gif Would you say there's any tension in this swing?
EL,
ShawnB
01-02-2009, 12:58 PM
Erik,
If you don't like what I have to say then that is fine with me.
It's called being at this for a long time and being able to see movement patterns and swing patterns. Abilities, skill level, and if you wanted to know if you got "it" by judging this swing. Then I would say no you don't have "it". Some people can make it look pretty good, and they can be harder to do an analysis.
You might be trying to hard against a pitching machine. If you believe your timing is good and your not making any adjustment in this swing, then what I said early still holds.
I also already mentioned some things and how to change.
I would stop letting the weight get to the outside of the back leg.
I would change the load of the back leg and "actually" load the hips. I would develop stability which will lead to more effective mobility. I would start the push prior to heel plant. I would stop the poor stride (which would be part of changing the load and actually lifting the knee) and work on the backside setting down the front foot when it's ready.
I would definitely work on some core exercises. To speed up the process.
And what would I care what you think you feel? Whatever you think is happening, means absolutely nothing to me when evaluating someones swing.
If you think you can do better, then post a swing that you believe represents a good swing. Don't give me something where you say I was working on 3-1 count and a runner on 3rd. And what are/did you try to accomplish? Did you try to hit a fly ball, are did you try to get a base hit with less then two strike?
If your trying to hit a sacrifice fly, the swing looks awfully big and the follow through is way to much for the situation. If your just trying to get a base hit the same goes and it looks more like someone who is trying to be hero.
Give a better clip, better quality, higher shutter speed and less clothing. If you really want to know what changes I would make and why, and the how part is much easier if I can monitor each swing.
Right now I'm nursing sore knees, as I've been told I have patella syndrome from to many years of catching pitchers and squatting to long. To many practices and during the same time having a job that required doing the same thing. So this has set be back a little with trying to get back into shape. And I'm at a point where I have to go back to the doctor and tell her acknowledging the problem is not helping this time. They should have healed with the amount of time I given them this time and the treatments/exercises.
I can still swing pretty good, but I don't think I would use myself as an example at this time. It's like Ted trying to use his swing as an example in 1972 and Mike Epstein knowing better then to use himself as an example in his video.
And if this represents your best swing, and you can't do any better. Then that is also fine, it's your swing, it's what you feel comfortable with and what you believe. I doubt your doing everything possible, putting in the time, training, etc.,. to be the best hitter as possible, given age, and playing level.
Erik,
If you don't like what I have to say then that is fine with me.
It's called being at this for a long time and being able to see movement patterns and swing patterns. Abilities, skill level, and if you wanted to know if you got "it" by judging this swing. Then I would say no you don't have "it". Some people can make it look pretty good, and they can be harder to do an analysis.
You might be trying to hard against a pitching machine. If you believe your timing is good and your not making any adjustment in this swing, then what I said early still holds.
I also already mentioned some things and how to change.
I would stop letting the weight get to the outside of the back leg.
I would change the load of the back leg and "actually" load the hips. I would develop stability which will lead to more effective mobility. I would start the push prior to heel plant. I would stop the poor stride (which would be part of changing the load and actually lifting the knee) and work on the backside setting down the front foot when it's ready.
I would definitely work on some core exercises. To speed up the process.
And what would I care what you think you feel? Whatever you think is happening, means absolutely nothing to me when evaluating someones swing.
If you think you can do better, then post a swing that you believe represents a good swing. Don't give me something where you say I was working on 3-1 count and a runner on 3rd. And what are/did you try to accomplish? Did you try to hit a fly ball, are did you try to get a base hit with less then two strike?
If your trying to hit a sacrifice fly, the swing looks awfully big and the follow through is way to much for the situation. If your just trying to get a base hit the same goes and it looks more like someone who is trying to be hero.
Give a better clip, better quality, higher shutter speed and less clothing. If you really want to know what changes I would make and why, and the how part is much easier if I can monitor each swing.
Right now I'm nursing sore knees, as I've been told I have patella syndrome from to many years of catching pitchers and squatting to long. To many practices and during the same time having a job that required doing the same thing. So this has set be back a little with trying to get back into shape. And I'm at a point where I have to go back to the doctor and tell her acknowledging the problem is not helping this time. They should have healed with the amount of time I given them this time and the treatments/exercises.
I can still swing pretty good, but I don't think I would use myself as an example at this time. It's like Ted trying to use his swing as an example in 1972 and Mike Epstein knowing better then to use himself as an example in his video.
And if this represents your best swing, and you can't do any better. Then that is also fine, it's your swing, it's what you feel comfortable with and what you believe. I doubt your doing everything possible, putting in the time, training, etc.,. to best hitter as possible, given age, and playing level.
ShawnB,
It's called being at this for a long time and being able to see movement patterns and swing patterns. Abilities, skill level, and if you wanted to know if you got "it" by judging this swing. Then I would say no you don't have "it". Some people can make it look pretty good, and they can be harder to do an analysis.
can you post a clip of a hitters swing that represents your perception of movement patterns and swing patterns that you describe that I need to be aware of? This would give me a better discription of your reality. What hitter would you guide me in the direction to for movement patterns, and swing pattern, skill level, and abilities. I find this of interest from our discussion. I'm listening with an open mind. I'm not sure you and I have felt the same things in a swing from just some written words and discriptions. I gather from what you have concluded from this swing it couldn't work at the MLB level is this what you are concluding? If so please explain why. Thanks!!
EL,