Decide for yourself

[HYP]

I maintain that everyone, and when I say everyone, I mean everyone, should draw their own conclusions. Don't mindlessly beleive me because I tell you what I see and feel. Don't believe anyone here mindlessly. Decide for yourself what you see. Read, listen and watch video. Take what you hear and compare to video. If it holds water then I say jump in. The ones I say you should always listen to very intently are the ones doing it at the Professional level. They know what it takes to get there and it aint easy.

http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/Posadasidebyside.gif




http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/Manny21.gif



http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/Hamiltonforearmrotation.gif

[jbooth]

I maintain that everyone, and when I say everyone, I mean everyone, should draw their own conclusions. Don't mindlessly beleive me because I tell you what I see and feel. Don't believe anyone here mindlessly. Decide for yourself what you see. Read, listen and watch video. Take what you hear and compare to video. If it holds water then I say jump in. The ones I say you should always listen to very intently are the ones doing it at the Professional level. They know what it takes to get there and it aint easy.

http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/Posadasidebyside.gif




http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/Manny21.gif



http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/Hamiltonforearmrotation.gif

HYP, you're late to the party. Most of us here have been discussing, debating and arguing this stuff with each other for anywhere from 2 to 6 years. I personally met your buddy Richard in 2003 or 2004, can't remember exactly. Much of what he now believes is stuff he said I was wrong about back then. He finally figured out the lower half, but he's still lost in space in regard to the upper body and hands and arm action. You sound just like him and I vowed not to debate with him anymore, so as long as you keep spouting his moronic stuff I will henceforth cease to discuss it with you. We've been down this road a long time.

[Encinitas]

HYP, you're late to the party. Most of us here have been discussing, debating and arguing this stuff with each other for anywhere from 2 to 6 years. I personally met your buddy Richard in 2003 or 2004, can't remember exactly. Much of what he now believes is stuff he said I was wrong about back then. He finally figured out the lower half, but he's still lost in space in regard to the upper body and hands and arm action. You sound just like him and I vowed not to debate with him anymore, so as long as you keep spouting his moronic stuff I will henceforth cease to discuss it with you. We've been down this road a long time.

Hyp isn't late to the party he's been around the boards for a few years.

[HYP]

HYP, you're late to the party. Most of us here have been discussing, debating and arguing this stuff with each other for anywhere from 2 to 6 years. I personally met your buddy Richard in 2003 or 2004, can't remember exactly. Much of what he now believes is stuff he said I was wrong about back then. He finally figured out the lower half, but he's still lost in space in regard to the upper body and hands and arm action. You sound just like him and I vowed not to debate with him anymore, so as long as you keep spouting his moronic stuff I will henceforth cease to discuss it with you. We've been down this road a long time.

Where in this thread that I started did I say anything moronic? All i am saying is for people to make up their own minds. i tell them not to believe me or you or anyone. Except for the Pros they should listen to them intently.

Are you afraid that if someone looks, they may see something different then you?

They should look other places for advice but still match it to video and feel.

Don't think I ever asked you to discuss anything with me and that is fine if you do not want to. I like some of your stuff, other stuff we see differently.

HYP

[jbooth]

Where in this thread that I started did I say anything moronic? All i am saying is for people to make up their own minds. i tell them not to believe me or you or anyone. Except for the Pros they should listen to them intently.

Are you afraid that if someone looks, they may see something different then you?

They should look other places for advice but still match it to video and feel.

Don't think I ever asked you to discuss anything with me and that is fine if you do not want to. I like some of your stuff, other stuff we see differently.

HYP

People see things different from me often. The problem is; most of them can't explain or justify what they think is happening, or dispute what I said. That's not to say that I've always been right. A couple people did provide valid evidence that I was wrong, and I admitted it and learned something. So far, on the things I continue to state, conclusive evidence has not been presented that makes me feel the need to re-evaluate or change my belief. OTOH, last year, I provided lots of evidence disproving the baloney that Richard spews out about how the hands and arms move the bat. Some people understood it, and some still believe the nonsense. I don't really have the patience or energy to continue to debate to prove my points vs the moronic points. I just state them with confidence that I am correct until proven wrong.

[GetYourBestSwing]

Good thing this thread was started.

Until now, I was just mindlessly listening to others for help on what I do for a living. lol


There must be a lot of built up, hard feelings in the cyberspace hitting world.

[HYP]

Lets talk about this clip. Everyone or no one.

http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/Posadasidebyside.gif

Since I have been posting here I have read about how seperation is created by turning hard with the core. How if you can create more seperation would not be that beneficial. I read about taking the slack out of the swing and setting swing plane early. If I understand their posts correct, the seperation is part of the launch. set plane and turn the core hard, to take out the slack and get the shoulders moving.

It is my belief that the hips turning early, the seperation is part of the load. that swing plane is not set early. Look at the clip does Posadas hips open early while the shoulders remain closed? If so and he is able to check his swing, would that all happen before launch? So then would that not be a part of the load? See if you can do what Posada does then you can take the slack out before commitment and when it is time to launch then you just launch, NO SLACK. Is Posada setting swing plane early? If so what is he setting it to, he takes the pitch on the right? The swing is underway before the swing plane is established.

Another thing is he maintains his weight in his rear hip, rides his back leg. This is what allows him to do what he does. Notice how his lead hip seems to move around his rear hip. If you can see this then doesn't that make the rear hip the point of rotation in the lower body not the front hip?

Again I say decide for yourself. Do not take my word for it.

HYP

[HYP]

Good thing this thread was started.

Until now, I was just mindlessly listening to others for help on what I do for a living. lol


There must be a lot of built up, hard feelings in the cyberspace hitting world.

I too am an instructor and I would guess that this thread was not started for you.

I know that if a dad, with limited kowledge, came to me and said teach my son how to hit. I could tell him anything and he would believe what I said.

Point is IMO people give way to much weight to guys claiming to know what they are talking about. That's why IMO they should think for themselves and not just believe anyone.

HYP

[kylebee]

Good thing this thread was started.

Until now, I was just mindlessly listening to others for help on what I do for a living. lol


There must be a lot of built up, hard feelings in the cyberspace hitting world.

If you think the cyberspace hitting world is bad, you should read some of the old Marshall threads.

[HYP]

http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/Hamiltonforearmrotation.gif

I have heard on in these posts down playing the use of the hands. Even though the Pros talk about the hands a lot.

I have said that the hands/forearms turn the bat.

Look at the clip is the bat turning around the hands or the shoulders?

The hands/forearms turn the bat rearward, the arms rotate the triangle (lead elbow up, back elbow down) and the shoulders tilt. This causes a pivot point around the hands.

I have heard how does the hinge angle remain consistent if the hands/forearms are turning the bat around them.

Example; Hold a bat in front of you with your forearms horizontal to the ground and both elbows pressed to your side, so your elbows or arms can not move. Hold the bat vertical. Now the bat should be perpindicular to your forearms. Turn your forearms so that the inside of your top hand forearm is facing up. You now should be palm up, palm down. You just turned the bat around your hands without losing the hinge angle.

Now take your hands to your rear shoulder and do the same thing. Your back elbow will go down and your lead elbow will go up.

Now get in an athletic stance and do it with a little force, keeping the top hand in control. That is how you turn the bat around your hands without losing the hinge angle.

These 3 things, turning the hands/forearms, rotating the triangle and tilting the shoulders creates a pivot around the hands

But like I have said and will continue to say, You need to decide for yourself.

HYP

[Encinitas]

http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/Hamiltonforearmrotation.gif

I have heard on in these posts down playing the use of the hands. Even though the Pros talk about the hands a lot.

I have said that the hands/forearms turn the bat.

Look at the clip is the bat turning around the hands or the shoulders?

The hands/forearms turn the bat rearward, the arms rotate the triangle (lead elbow up, back elbow down) and the shoulders tilt. This causes a pivot point around the hands.

I have heard how does the hinge angle remain consistent if the hands/forearms are turning the bat around them.

Example; Hold a bat in front of you with your forearms horizontal to the ground and both elbows pressed to your side, so your elbows or arms can not move. Hold the bat vertical. Now the bat should be perpindicular to your forearms. Turn your forearms so that the inside of your top hand forearm is facing up. You now should be palm up, palm down. You just turned the bat around your hands without losing the hinge angle.

Now take your hands to your rear shoulder and do the same thing. Your back elbow will go down and your lead elbow will go up.

Now get in an athletic stance and do it with a little force, keeping the top hand in control. That is how you turn the bat around your hands without losing the hinge angle.

These 3 things, turning the hands/forearms, rotating the triangle and tilting the shoulders creates a pivot around the hands

But like I have said and will continue to say, You need to decide for yourself.

HYP

Hyp good point and its a shame you have to make it.

JimBooth make a bunch of clips last year where he broke hinge angle in an attempt to prove the barrel could move towards the catcher or past the hands at launch without the forearms turning and getting palm-up/palm down well before contact. This apparently was proof that the 2nd Engine was non-existent.

[callyjr]

I maintain that everyone, and when I say everyone, I mean everyone, should draw their own conclusions. Don't mindlessly beleive me because I tell you what I see and feel. Don't believe anyone here mindlessly. Decide for yourself what you see. Read, listen and watch video. Take what you hear and compare to video. If it holds water then I say jump in. The ones I say you should always listen to very intently are the ones doing it at the Professional level. They know what it takes to get there and it aint easy.

http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/Posadasidebyside.gif




http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/Manny21.gif



http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/Hamiltonforearmrotation.gif

the post is almost a carbon copy of a Richard post.

[Ursa Major]

Hyp said: Everyone, should draw their own conclusions. Don't mindlessly beleive me because I tell you what I see and feel. Don't believe anyone here mindlessly. Decide for yourself what you see. Read, listen and watch video. Take what you hear and compare to video. If it holds water then I say jump in. The ones I say you should always listen to very intently are the ones doing it at the Professional level. They know what it takes to get there and it aint easy."You raise several different points (some of which I would take issue with), but there's a very interesting and valuable issue buried in there that can be of value: How is it that we should decide one instructor's cues, drills and assertions as to general rules of physics and kinesiology?

It's totally unhelpful to suggest that we weigh and analyze every component of every instructor's regimen from top-to-bottom -- if you agree with most of what that instructor says, then you presubmably can rely on other components of his teachings until your own experience tells you it's not helpful in your work with your own kids.

And, at some level, it's not useful to debate Yeager v. Epstein v. Englishbey, because for 90 percent of kids under age 14, they'll be well-served if they can excellently emulate any one of their programs.

And I think it runs counter to our own life experiences to think that most of us part-timers can know enough about swing mechanics think we can assess a swing as well as a professional -- so long as the professional has something to back it up.

So, what I think a relative newcomer (say, someone who's coached youth baseball or their own kid for at least two years), you should assess the advice of the gurus based on the following:

1. Does it comport with your experience as to what works with the kids you work with?
2. Does that person or that cue/drill/concept have success with other kids?
3. Does the explanation by the guru make sense based on your knowledge of the world, kids and physics?

We make these kinds of judgments all the time. When Ursa Minor needed braces, my wife and I (who know nothing about orthodontia) interviewed two very fine orthodontists and selected one based on our sense that his approach as to the risks and rewards of patience vs. intervention was similar to our own gut feelings, as well as on his track record and on recommendations by others. You've got to rely on others' expertise a little.

Unlike orthodontia, however, there's nothing set in stone about when you might depart from one particular guru's teachings for any number of reasons. I steal from 'em all.

What I think Jim Booth was jumping at was your assertion that those we should "listen to very intently are the ones doing it at the Professional level. They know what it takes to get there and it aint easy." He has been one of the leaders over the years at pointing out instances of where great professional hitters say things that run counter to what they themselves did. (Just say something complimentary about Dusty Baker or Dave Hudgens and watch him get going.) There are many, many threads that debate the advice of numerous such hitters. Relying on great hitters will give you a ton of advice that at the very least is inconsistent with each other and often will be harmful to anyone who doesn't have the gifts of, say, Ryan Howard. So, that particular comment is wildly oversimplistic and ultimately of little practical guidance, I'm afraid.

[BoardMember]

:crazythe post is almost a carbon copy of a Richard post.

That's too bad........So much for THINKING FOR YOURSELF........

[BoardMember]

Lets talk about this clip. Everyone or no one.

http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/Posadasidebyside.gif

Since I have been posting here I have read about how seperation is created by turning hard with the core.

WHAT????? Where did you read this? Please provide a link.........Or a name of a poster who you believe stated this.........I've never read such a thing here.......

How if you can create more seperation would not be that beneficial. I read about taking the slack out of the swing and setting swing plane early. If I understand their posts correct, the seperation is part of the launch. set plane and turn the core hard, to take out the slack and get the shoulders moving.

You obviously have a limited or shallow understanding of what is being said. Or, you're being FED an understanding that is very skewed.......

Again, I'd love to see where anyone eluded to the bolded part here. Maybe I missed it......But I doubt it..........

It is my belief that the hips turning early, the seperation is part of the load.

Good. You believe what most here already know.......

that swing plane is not set early. Look at the clip does Posadas hips open early while the shoulders remain closed? If so and he is able to check his swing, would that all happen before launch? So then would that not be a part of the load? See if you can do what Posada does then you can take the slack out before commitment and when it is time to launch then you just launch, NO SLACK. Is Posada setting swing plane early? If so what is he setting it to, he takes the pitch on the right? The swing is underway before the swing plane is established.

You are mistaking setting the plane with MAKING ADJUSTMENTS.......

Posada makes adjustments from the BAT POSITION HE SET IN BOTH CLIPS...........The position of the bat angle is almost identical. He opens earlier on the inside pitch, but the BAT is almost identical until launch........

He set the plane, and then made adjustments............Why do you think he took the pitch on the right? Because the pitch on the right DIDN'T match the initial plane he set...........The one on the left was "in the zone" of his initial plane set so he launched.............

http://i39.tinypic.com/1zfucrn.gif

Not a good argument for NOT "setting the initial plane"..........

Another thing is he maintains his weight in his rear hip, rides his back leg. This is what allows him to do what he does. Notice how his lead hip seems to move around his rear hip. If you can see this then doesn't that make the rear hip the point of rotation in the lower body not the front hip?

Again I say decide for yourself. Do not take my word for it.

HYP

The pivot points are dynamic. The pivot point starts with the rear hip as the front leg/hip open into plant. Once the shift/transfer is on, the pivot point shifts to the front leg to handle the balistic rotation being created.........

It only make sense that the pivot point would move TOWARD the line of force, not stay behind it on the back leg..............

[dominik]

Why are those debates only present in baseball? No one argues about a tennis stroke or baseketball throw so religiously.

Why is this in baseball? Is the bb swing more complicated?

I like the vids. Especially the check swing. THe ball is only a few cm above his hands and he does not swing. Very good eye.

OT:
I often have the problems that I swing on balls who are not really strike. I also sometimes have trouble recognizing breaking balls. Fastballs I hit quite good, but I really get fooled often on low breaking balls, which I often swing for strikes.

How can one practise this? Are there good drills to improve the eyes? In bp I'm not very selective because I want to get as many cuts as possible. I only let balls pass that are very far away(more than 20cm or so of the strike zone), sometimes I swing even on those balls. Could this be the reason and should I already be more selective in bp, or is there another reason?

[HYP]

the post is almost a carbon copy of a Richard post.


If so then we may see and think similar. I never seen the post that Richard made.

I am not Richard, I originally started posting here because of how Epstein was being misrepresented.

Do you not think that people shouldn't think for themselves?

HYP

[omg]

What I think Jim Booth was jumping at was your assertion that those we should "listen to very intently are the ones doing it at the Professional level. They know what it takes to get there and it aint easy."

Many MLB batting coaches are given their job because

a)they are filling a minority slot in the organization
b)they are drinking buddies with the head guy
c)they know full well that nobody will listen to them and don't have a problem with that
d) all of the above

[Jake Patterson]

Many MLB batting coaches are given their job because

a)they are filling a minority slot in the organization
b)they are drinking buddies with the head guy
c)they know full well that nobody will listen to them and don't have a problem with that
d) all of the above

Based on some of my experiences at spring training, I would have to agree.

[Mark H]

http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/Hamiltonforearmrotation.gif

I have heard on in these posts down playing the use of the hands. Even though the Pros talk about the hands a lot.

I have said that the hands/forearms turn the bat.

Look at the clip is the bat turning around the hands or the shoulders?

The hands/forearms turn the bat rearward, the arms rotate the triangle (lead elbow up, back elbow down) and the shoulders tilt. This causes a pivot point around the hands.

I have heard how does the hinge angle remain consistent if the hands/forearms are turning the bat around them.

Example; Hold a bat in front of you with your forearms horizontal to the ground and both elbows pressed to your side, so your elbows or arms can not move. Hold the bat vertical. Now the bat should be perpindicular to your forearms. Turn your forearms so that the inside of your top hand forearm is facing up. You now should be palm up, palm down. You just turned the bat around your hands without losing the hinge angle.

Now take your hands to your rear shoulder and do the same thing. Your back elbow will go down and your lead elbow will go up.

Now get in an athletic stance and do it with a little force, keeping the top hand in control. That is how you turn the bat around your hands without losing the hinge angle.

These 3 things, turning the hands/forearms, rotating the triangle and tilting the shoulders creates a pivot around the hands

But like I have said and will continue to say, You need to decide for yourself.

HYP

In these clips, the wrists aren't bending one way or the other, the elbows aren't flexing or extending, the hands aren't ungripping, so what is causing the movement we see? Hint: It ain't the hands.

[Mark H]

Again I say decide for yourself. Do not take my word for it.

HYP

Yes. Hence my mantra dubbed by Tom the Hanson Rule: Always compare anything anyone says about hitting to slow motion video of the best in the world. Use that to sort out the conflicting things people with resumes, and without, say about hitting.

[jbooth]

http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/Hamiltonforearmrotation.gif

I have heard on in these posts down playing the use of the hands. Even though the Pros talk about the hands a lot.

I have said that the hands/forearms turn the bat.

Look at the clip is the bat turning around the hands or the shoulders?

The hands/forearms turn the bat rearward, the arms rotate the triangle (lead elbow up, back elbow down) and the shoulders tilt. This causes a pivot point around the hands.

I have heard how does the hinge angle remain consistent if the hands/forearms are turning the bat around them.

Example; Hold a bat in front of you with your forearms horizontal to the ground and both elbows pressed to your side, so your elbows or arms can not move. Hold the bat vertical. Now the bat should be perpindicular to your forearms. Turn your forearms so that the inside of your top hand forearm is facing up. You now should be palm up, palm down. You just turned the bat around your hands without losing the hinge angle.

Now take your hands to your rear shoulder and do the same thing. Your back elbow will go down and your lead elbow will go up.

Now get in an athletic stance and do it with a little force, keeping the top hand in control. That is how you turn the bat around your hands without losing the hinge angle.

These 3 things, turning the hands/forearms, rotating the triangle and tilting the shoulders creates a pivot around the hands

But like I have said and will continue to say, You need to decide for yourself.

HYP

You've mis-analyzed the move. That isn't what is happening, although you finally explained what "pivoting around the hands" means to you, which I did not understand before. Now that I understand it, I'm positive it's wrong. I showed how it really works a year or more ago.

What you describe is simply what I, and Ted Williams call, "flattening of the bat" and it doesn't happen from torque at the hands, it happens from the rear elbow dropping which pushes the hands out, which causes the bathead to move in the opposite direction. The pivot point for this action is toward the middle of the bat.

Note where the pivot point really is; and how the knob and bathead move in opposite directions;

http://firstpickclub.com/video/bonds01b.gif

The two guys you showed are doing the same thing. The knob moves which causes the bathead to move.

Put your hands out as you described and balance the bat vertically and then simply move the knob out from under the head. THAT's what actually happens.

In your description; you are making the hands the pivot point by making them stationary and then using your forearms and hands to move the bathead around that pivot point. You are correct in that example. The hands are the pivot point and the bathead arcs around them, but that isn't how the swing works. The hands move which in turn moves the bathead. The bathead is following the hands, not arcing around them.

[Chris O'Leary]

What you describe is simply what I, and Ted Williams call, "flattening of the bat" and it doesn't happen from torque at the hands, it happens from the rear elbow dropping which pushes the hands out, which causes the bathead to move in the opposite direction. The pivot point for this action is toward the middle of the bat.

Note where the pivot point really is; and how the knob and bathead move in opposite directions;

http://firstpickclub.com/video/bonds01b.gif

The rotation of the shoulders also causes the barrel of the bat to lay back (and the back elbow to slot to a degree) just as a pitcher's forearm lays back as their shoulders start to rotate.

[HYP]

WHAT????? Where did you read this? Please provide a link.........Or a name of a poster who you believe stated this.........I've never read such a thing here.......



You obviously have a limited or shallow understanding of what is being said. Or, you're being FED an understanding that is very skewed.......

Again, I'd love to see where anyone eluded to the bolded part here. Maybe I missed it......But I doubt it..........

The thread I can think of off of the top of my head appears to be removed and I believe that Mark was saying it.



Good. You believe what most here already know.......



You are mistaking setting the plane with MAKING ADJUSTMENTS.......

Posada makes adjustments from the BAT POSITION HE SET IN BOTH CLIPS...........The position of the bat angle is almost identical. He opens earlier on the inside pitch, but the BAT is almost identical until launch........

I Agree

He set the plane, and then made adjustments............Why do you think he took the pitch on the right? Because the pitch on the right DIDN'T match the initial plane he set...........The one on the left was "in the zone" of his initial plane set so he launched.............

http://i39.tinypic.com/1zfucrn.gif

Not a good argument for NOT "setting the initial plane"..........

This is my point if the plane is set early and if the pitch doesn't match the plane then you have to abort.

IMO he was setting up to swing as he always does and the pitch was up so he checked.



The pivot points are dynamic. The pivot point starts with the rear hip as the front leg/hip open into plant. Once the shift/transfer is on, the pivot point shifts to the front leg to handle the balistic rotation being created.........

It only make sense that the pivot point would move TOWARD the line of force, not stay behind it on the back leg..............

I believe I understand what you are saying. I see the lead hip moving back and I see the upperbody stay over the rear hip. The lead leg is locked out and leaning back. while the rear thigh seems to be more perpindicular to the ground. So with the lead leg locked and leaning back forcing the lead hip rearward and the rest of the body staying over the rear hip is why I consider the rear hip to be the pivot point. IMO if you make the lead hip your pivot point then you will tie up your hips and not have freedom of movement to direct your energy through the ball.


Thanks for your explanations and for talking hitting.

HYP

[HYP]

Many MLB batting coaches are given their job because

a)they are filling a minority slot in the organization
b)they are drinking buddies with the head guy
c)they know full well that nobody will listen to them and don't have a problem with that
d) all of the above
I don't know how they get their jobs but I have heard this before. I have Dave Hudgens stuff and think it's pretty ridiculous.

I'm talking about listening to what the Pro players are saying.

HYP

[HYP]

In these clips, the wrists aren't bending one way or the other, the elbows aren't flexing or extending, the hands aren't ungripping, so what is causing the movement we see? Hint: It ain't the hands.

If I have to pick I would say the forearms.

HYP

[HYP]

You've mis-analyzed the move. That isn't what is happening, although you finally explained what "pivoting around the hands" means to you, which I did not understand before. Now that I understand it, I'm positive it's wrong. I showed how it really works a year or more ago.

What you describe is simply what I, and Ted Williams call, "flattening of the bat" and it doesn't happen from torque at the hands, it happens from the rear elbow dropping which pushes the hands out, which causes the bathead to move in the opposite direction. The pivot point for this action is toward the middle of the bat.

Note where the pivot point really is; and how the knob and bathead move in opposite directions;

http://firstpickclub.com/video/bonds01b.gif

The two guys you showed are doing the same thing. The knob moves which causes the bathead to move.

Put your hands out as you described and balance the bat vertically and then simply move the knob out from under the head. THAT's what actually happens.

In your description; you are making the hands the pivot point by making them stationary and then using your forearms and hands to move the bathead around that pivot point. You are correct in that example. The hands are the pivot point and the bathead arcs around them, but that isn't how the swing works. The hands move which in turn moves the bathead. The bathead is following the hands, not arcing around them.

Thanks for your explanation. What I see happening is this. The forearms are rotating as I described, applying instant force to the bat. The hands are moving with the rear shoulder which is why the pivot point appears farther up the bat. I honestly may be using the word pivot point incorrectly. Is this where some of the problem lies?

Would you say the bat circles around the hands?

There are problems that I have and have ran into with "pulling" the knob out from under the bat. That is the top hand is not in control and the barrel is "dumped" and the barrel gets dragged through the zone.

Thanks for the conversation about hitting,

HYP

[hitnpeas]

I don't know how they get their jobs but I have heard this before. I have Dave Hudgens stuff and think it's pretty ridiculous.

I'm talking about listening to what the Pro players are saying.

HYP

Care to elaborate as to why you feel this way specifically?

[HYP]

Care to elaborate as to why you feel this way specifically?
Probably shouldn't have said ridiculous. That's kind of harsh. I have I think 6 or 7 of his DVDs and I havn't watch them all because after watching the first 2 I decided it was not for me. I breifly scanned through the others. I am sure that I will get to watching the others but I am not in that big of a hurry. I am aware that one should not make the kind of judgement I made based on such a short time with the material. If given further time some things may have made since. But for me it didn't match what I see in MLB video.

Mostly his stuff about the bat coming straight down to the ball. that you want to hit down on the ball and then proceeded to chop down on the ball. backing up to the fence and bringing the barrel straight to the ball on a tee. I'm sure there is more but this is what I can remember right now and I really don't want to get them out and veiw them at this time.

[RayR]

There are problems that I have and have ran into with "pulling" the knob out from under the bat. That is the top hand is not in control and the barrel is "dumped" and the barrel gets dragged through the zone.

HYP


Can you please explain this further? I feel the complete opposite. The more I focus on keeping the front wrist cocked the less barrel dumps and more inside my hand path is.

[HYP]

Can you please explain this further? I feel the complete opposite. The more I focus on keeping the front wrist cocked the less barrel dumps and more inside my hand path is.

Glad to explain. What I have had happen is the weight of the barrel while vertical appears weightless. When I pull the knob out from under the barrel, the weight of the barrel seems to become more then my top hand can react to and I lose the barrel. This is what happens to me and I have seen it in some of the kids I coach.

I keep my lead wrist cocked as well but put more of an emphasis on the top hand being in control and rotate the barrel with my forearms, palm up, palm down. When I do this I seem to have more control of the barrel and know where it is. The other way I have no control over the barrel.

HYP

[Mark H]

If I have to pick I would say the forearms.

HYP

The forearms are not a joint. The wrists are not changing angle and the elbows aren't flexing or extending so it's not the forearms. Differentiating between analysis/reality and application, I don't have a problem with an instructor talking about the hands, demonstrating what they mean and making sure it happens. Please eventually make sure the hitter understands reality.

The action is happening due to movement in the shoulder complex. The quality of this movement varies considerably between an elite hitter and a young hitter. Pretty complex movement capability in the shoulder.

[HYP]

The forearms are not a joint. The wrists are not changing angle and the elbows aren't flexing or extending so it's not the forearms. Differentiating between analysis/reality and application, I don't have a problem with an instructor talking about the hands, demonstrating what they mean and making sure it happens. Please eventually make sure the hitter understands reality.

The action is happening due to movement in the shoulder complex. The quality of this movement varies considerably between an elite hitter and a young hitter. Pretty complex movement capability in the shoulder.

Did you try the example I posted to try? The elbows were pressed to the sides, the hands were in front of the body with the bat vertical in the hands. i merely turned my hands palm up, palm down. What part of my shoulder complex was controling that?

HYP

[Mark H]

If that was what was happening in the clip we were looking at it would be very relevant but you make a point. That is one more degree of freedom.