What else? ( 9 yr old son's swing)

[new2thesport]

2009 is the start of the new baseball year for little league. I joined Baseball Fever in April to help my son hit better. I have read many suggestions and tips and this is what I ended up with. I viewed Chris Oleary's website and that was my base and added on by all the suggestions and tips. The videos are the culmination of the whole process. I hope we did good. I would like to thank all of the posters here, callyjr, hyp, boardmember, jake paterson,mark h, justthefacts, steveenglishbey, straightgrain11, beemax and all the others, There are so many, I am sorry if i forgot your name. Thank you jbooth for your videos, they were very instrumental for me to understand what was going on and then I could translate it to my son!

My questions to you:

Does he have separation?
Is he kenetically linked?
Is he swinging like a rotational hitter?
Anything else we need to work on that needs our attention?

I dont see bat drag, so I am glad.

These videos were taken today, 12-29-08.

I told him to swing good for the video!!!!lol

Thank you again, we will continue to work on his swing and suggestions are wlecomed and appreciated.

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/th_100_2505.jpg (http://s332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/?action=view&current=100_2505.flv)

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/th_100_2506.jpg (http://s332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/?action=view&current=100_2506.flv)

[omg]

Step, then swing not swing and step at the same time. Needs to stride earlier?

[Jake Patterson]

His body rotation is limited. Look at the second clip and mark the line between his shoulders and hips both where they start and where they end you will find most of his swing is accomplished with his hands, wrists and arms with little body rotation. If it were me I would start with keeping him connected and teaching him how to properly rotate.

[new2thesport]

His body rotation is limited. Look at the second clip and mark the line between his shoulders and hips both where they start and where they end you will find most of his swing is accomplished with his hands, wrists and arms with little body rotation. If it were me I would start with keeping him connected and teaching him how to properly rotate.

So I didnt do it right.
One of the ques that I told him to do is to think of a stick going through his head down to the ground. Then spin on that.

We worked on the front leg so that it pushes back to help his hips rotate quicker and his back foot comes up to toe touch (not squish the bug)and you can see that his weight does shift to the front.

So I am confused. What did I do wrong with his rotation?

[Mark H]

He's got a sense of creating whip but the rotation and posture need work. Very good raw material and starting point though. I always get jealous and nostalgic for the days when my kids were this age and we were working on this stuff. Check your pm's for a link to a clip I'd like you to see.

[Mark H]

Have you studied all this stuff? http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=eiogea4mv4.zebra_s

[Mark H]

To give you a little guidance, compare your son's adjustment to a low pitch to this guy. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=3&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

Compare his axis of rotation to this guy.http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=14&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

[FiveFrameSwing]

Your son's hand/barrel load is in need of a significant and important modification. At present he permaturely points the palm of his top hand skyward causing the bat barrel to be trapped behind him. The end result is a significant bat drag issue that results in a long barrel path.

Below are the clips of your son reproducing this poor mechanic of trapping his bat barrel behind him by prematurely allowing the palm of the top had to point skyward.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/delme/Batdragger_Swing1.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/delme/Batdragger_Swing2.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/delme/Batdragger_Swing3.gif

[Mark H]

Your son's hand/barrel load is in need of a significant and important modification. At present he permaturely points the palm of his top hand skyward causing the bat barrel to be trapped behind him. The end result is a significant bat drag issue that results in a long barrel path.
]

Yeah but if you don't tilt over to line up the swing plane you have to use your arms to get the bat in the way of the ball. This is standard issue stand up, use the arms to drop down to the ball, fan open the front leg and drag the bat through. It's the way lots of kids solve the movement problem that is hitting. I'd have a ball working with this kid.

[new2thesport]

Your son's hand/barrel load is in need of a significant and important modification. At present he permaturely points the palm of his top hand skyward causing the bat barrel to be trapped behind him. The end result is a significant bat drag issue that results in a long barrel path.

Below are the clips of your son reproducing this poor mechanic of trapping his bat barrel behind him by prematurely allowing the palm of the top had to point skyward.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/delme/Batdragger_Swing1.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/delme/Batdragger_Swing2.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/delme/Batdragger_Swing3.gif

Thanks fiveframeswing for the slow mo!
A part of that palm being pointed up is my fault. I tried to copy a clip in this website: http://www.batspeed.com/products09.html. The part I copied is a split screen of a boy and girl hitting into a heavy bag. If you view the clip, you will see the similarities between the pictures you posted.

Can you explain the proper way to correct this? or better yet a video clip.

Thank you

[new2thesport]

Oops. In other words, I dont know what to do or how to correct it. Thank you again.

[Jake Patterson]

Oops. In other words, I dont know what to do or how to correct it. Thank you again.When I teach youngsters with this issue I have had great success using Jim Both's hitting stick. It allows for a reasonable set up and helps the batter initiate proper turn. This will give him a feeling as to where he needs to start. Once you establish this the other items may come easier. PM Jim and ask if he'll re-post that information. I may be in Clips,Pics and Sites.
Jake

[PhilliesPhan22]

He's 9 years old!!!! Most 9 years olds are not mentally developed enough to handle the advanced overanalysis of a baseball swing to absorb anything taught to him. A 9 year old knows:

1. step
2. see ball
3. hit ball

That being said, his swing looks good. I would only teach more if he asks to learn more.

[mcloven]

After coaching many 7-9 year olds, my theory on why so many of them have bat drag or a long barrel path is that it's almost purely a function of core strength, swing radius and ability to get enough bat speed to make a slower pitched ball go the furthest.

A shorter swing/MLB pattern swing is obviously optimal as you get to higher levels because the ball is pitched at higher speeds and the more mature/stronger player can accelerate the bat to a faster rate of speed quickly over a short distance (taking the shortest path, the batter can still generate substantial bat speed). Mature/stronger players can be both quick and fast.

Younger players instinctively want to generate the greatest bat speed so they can hit the ball far, quickness is less of an issue. They generally aren't strong enough to accelerate a good sized bat to high speeds over a short distance, so they use a longer radius, giving them a longer distance to obtain bat speed. Since reaction time is less important at that age (due to teeball, coach pitch or slower kid pitch), the longer radius is a decent trade-off for higher bat speed.

My guess is that, at younger ages, a shorter swing would produce more consistent contact, but would also reduce how far the ball would travel because they wouldn't be able to accelerate the bat to a high enough speed. Young players naturally trade off quickness for speed--since speed generates the greatest distance. [Think of accelerating a car or running, the car or runner takes distance to get up to full speed--while an MLB player is more analogous to a dragster and can get up to full speed in a shorter distance].

Also, younger players have a smaller swing radius to begin with (arms are shorter and core is smaller) so they use anything they can to make the distance the bat travels greater so they can obtain more bat speed (versus being quick to the ball).

You can certainly teach younger players a shorter swing, but I've found that they may be less inclined to use it while they still can get away with a longer swing. Learning good habits will clearly help them in the long run and should be the goal, but it's also hard to teach a kid that the trade off of a little bat speed for more quickness is good, when quickness at that age isn't as big of an issue. In other words, I think that a long swing is "optimal" for what a younger player is trying, in his mind, to accomplish (distance)...later on, "optimal" will be a combination of distance and quickness, so the swing will have to evolve.

My guess is that many athletic players will make the natural adjustment as they realize that they need more quickness to succeed at more advanced levels---and others won't make that adjustment naturally and will need help.

Interestingly, if you look at Joe Mauer at a young age, he had pretty severe bat drag:
http://www.truveo.com/Mauer-Quick-Swing-Baseball-Trainer/id/171005492

Anyway, just a long-winded theory....

[Mark H]

Bat drag is, as you say, a rational solution in a kid's world to the desire to hit it far. I think, if they learn a better movement pattern, they could hit it just as far more often. I've seen a few tiny young fellows that swung it amazingly well and they hit the @#$% out of it. Nothing to panic about having to learn tomorrow though given the young age. It's more time to educate dad than it is to fix junior immediately.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Thanks fiveframeswing for the slow mo!
A part of that palm being pointed up is my fault. I tried to copy a clip in this website: http://www.batspeed.com/products09.html. The part I copied is a split screen of a boy and girl hitting into a heavy bag. If you view the clip, you will see the similarities between the pictures you posted.

Can you explain the proper way to correct this? or better yet a video clip.

Thank you

IMO this is what should be worked on first along the journey to beefing up your son's swing.

Also IMO, the poster here that has given the best description for addressing this issue is BoardMemeber. He would likely describe what I refer to as an improvement in the hand/barrel load (top-hand/top-arm/barrel load).

BM .... can you chime in here?

[Jake Patterson]

After coaching many 7-9 year olds, my theory on why so many of them have bat drag or a long barrel path is that it's almost purely a function of core strength, swing radius and ability to get enough bat speed to make a slower pitched ball go the furthest.

A shorter swing/MLB pattern swing is obviously optimal as you get to higher levels because the ball is pitched at higher speeds and the more mature/stronger player can accelerate the bat to a faster rate of speed quickly over a short distance (taking the shortest path, the batter can still generate substantial bat speed). Mature/stronger players can be both quick and fast.

Younger players instinctively want to generate the greatest bat speed so they can hit the ball far, quickness is less of an issue. They generally aren't strong enough to accelerate a good sized bat to high speeds over a short distance, so they use a longer radius, giving them a longer distance to obtain bat speed. Since reaction time is less important at that age (due to teeball, coach pitch or slower kid pitch), the longer radius is a decent trade-off for higher bat speed.

My guess is that, at younger ages, a shorter swing would produce more consistent contact, but would also reduce how far the ball would travel because they wouldn't be able to accelerate the bat to a high enough speed. Young players naturally trade off quickness for speed--since speed generates the greatest distance. [Think of accelerating a car or running, the car or runner takes distance to get up to full speed--while an MLB player is more analogous to a dragster and can get up to full speed in a shorter distance].

Also, younger players have a smaller swing radius to begin with (arms are shorter and core is smaller) so they use anything they can to make the distance the bat travels greater so they can obtain more bat speed (versus being quick to the ball).

You can certainly teach younger players a shorter swing, but I've found that they may be less inclined to use it while they still can get away with a longer swing. Learning good habits will clearly help them in the long run and should be the goal, but it's also hard to teach a kid that the trade off of a little bat speed for more quickness is good, when quickness at that age isn't as big of an issue. In other words, I think that a long swing is "optimal" for what a younger player is trying, in his mind, to accomplish (distance)...later on, "optimal" will be a combination of distance and quickness, so the swing will have to evolve.

My guess is that many athletic players will make the natural adjustment as they realize that they need more quickness to succeed at more advanced levels---and others won't make that adjustment naturally and will need help.

Interestingly, if you look at Joe Mauer at a young age, he had pretty severe bat drag:
http://www.truveo.com/Mauer-Quick-Swing-Baseball-Trainer/id/171005492

Anyway, just a long-winded theory....
Part of the problem is the size of the bats dads and coaches put in the youngsters hands. Dads especially, like the contact provided by the high drop, high performance bats. It would be interesting to conduct a height/length study. Pros are at 1:0.5 while many kids are 1:.75 (???)

[Mark H]

Part of the problem is the size of the bats dads and coaches put in the youngsters hands. Dads especially, like the contact provided by the high drop, high performance bats. It would be interesting to conduct a height/length study. Pros are at 1:0.5 while many kids are 1:.75 (???)

Yeah and the plate they have to cover is the same size as the pros and the zone called by youth umps can be large enough to move a small family into.

[Swing Coach]

My son (when 7) had this same swing. To fix it I had him swing down through balls on a tee (the tee must be back by his back leg). The balls must travel down to the bottom of the fence. At first, your son will not even be able to do this because of the way he drops the hands early. This drill teaches him the initial phase of a high-level swing...that the hands must first travel down and forward. When he gets this down after many of hundreds of reps, move the tee forward and tell him to drive the ball into center field. The end game is to see a downward approach with his hands, a tilt of his shoulders to get the barrel on plane and then a level or slightly upward swing through the ball. Chopping down through the ball is never a good drill, unless it is done properly to fix a specific flaw. ANd don't let people make you feel guilty for wanting to help his swing. Sure, he is only 7, but unless your instruction is pushing him away and making his attitude worse...go for it.

SC

[FiveFrameSwing]

My son (when 7) had this same swing. To fix it I had him swing down through balls on a tee (the tee must be back by his back leg). The balls must travel down to the bottom of the fence. At first, your son will not even be able to do this because of the way he drops the hands early. This drill teaches him the initial phase of a high-level swing...that the hands must first travel down and forward. When he gets this down after many of hundreds of reps, move the tee forward and tell him to drive the ball into center field. The end game is to see a downward approach with his hands, a tilt of his shoulders to get the barrel on plane and then a level or slightly upward swing through the ball. Chopping down through the ball is never a good drill, unless it is done properly to fix a specific flaw. ANd don't let people make you feel guilty for wanting to help his swing. Sure, he is only 7, but unless your instruction is pushing him away and making his attitude worse...go for it.

SC

MarkH has a high-tee drill that helps promote not dropping the hands prematurely ..... more to the point it helps provide quick negative feedback when the student permaturely drops their hands. In Rudy's DVD he also sets the tee extremely high in one of his drills ..... which promotes the same goal of an efficient hand path.

That said ..... it helps to understand the correct mechanics. In my opinion these drills then help promote the use of those mechanics.

And ..... IMO, MarkH's comment about a posture improvement is spot on. Students that tend to have too upright of a posture, or standup during their swing, tend to drop their hands. In fact, I'll compliment MarkH here and state that this kid's posture needs to be addressed first. IMO that won't be sufficient given this kid's hand/barrel load .... but it does need to be done in parallel with a correction in the hand/barrel load.

[rkbenn]

Your son's hand/barrel load is in need of a significant and important modification. At present he permaturely points the palm of his top hand skyward causing the bat barrel to be trapped behind him. The end result is a significant bat drag issue that results in a long barrel path.

Below are the clips of your son reproducing this poor mechanic of trapping his bat barrel behind him by prematurely allowing the palm of the top had to point skyward.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/delme/Batdragger_Swing1.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/delme/Batdragger_Swing2.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/delme/Batdragger_Swing3.gif

My son corrected this with the tip and rip.

[hitnpeas]

MarkH has a high-tee drill that helps promote not dropping the hands prematurely ..... more to the point it helps provide quick negative feedback when the student permaturely drops their hands. In Rudy's DVD he also sets the tee extremely high in one of his drills ..... which promotes the same goal of an efficient hand path.

That said ..... it helps to understand the correct mechanics. In my opinion these drills then help promote the use of those mechanics.

And ..... IMO, MarkH's comment about a posture improvement is spot on. Students that tend to have too upright of a posture, or standup during their swing, tend to drop their hands. In fact, I'll compliment MarkH here and state that this kid's posture needs to be addressed first. IMO that won't be sufficient given this kid's hand/barrel load .... but it does need to be done in parallel with a correction in the hand/barrel load.

To you, Mark and the other intelligent types on this board: :bowdown: :applaud:

What are your suggestions for alleviating the bat being "trapped"? Also, how high is the tee in the high tee drill? Thanks in advance....

[FiveFrameSwing]

My son corrected this with the tip and rip.

I believe this ...... since "bat tipping" is generally accomplished using a top arm/hand load that is superior to that demonstrated by this kid.

[new2thesport]

Thank you everyone. We worked on the hand position and posture (tilt ) today. For the hands, we observed the gif of the man with the weight stack and keeping the top hand from pancaking out by concentrating on body pulling(rotating). For bat placement, we copied Steve Englishbey on his website (bat barrel pointing forward behind his head while loading and making sure the bat doesnt drop behind his shoulder). What I saw was that the bat cleared his shoulder without it dropping behind.

For his posture and tilt when he swings, I put stickers on a wall at knee level, mid-thigh, waist, belly button, lower pecs and upper pecs level. He pretended he was hitting and visualizing the ball and he rotates his hips and shoulders and touches the sticker while maintaining the box. His front arm is kept in an L and the bat needs to be paralel to his shoulders. He had to slide the bat up the wall from the knee level, to mid thigh, and up and up and to feel the tilt of his shoulders in relation to the bat. After that, he would swing to the target and check his shoulder/bat plane and remain connected. I taped a wooden dowel to his shoulders to act as a guideline so he could visually see the shoulder and bat corellation.

(We did this at my work today)
We then went to the park on the way home and we practiced what he learned. I was impressed that he could still get the bat on the ball and how quickly he adapted to the tilting. I even threw really fast balls (faster than I ever did to him) and he could still get wood on the ball. He hit a ball really far on his good hits.

I will take video of him and show them to you. I hope we corrected the problems that you pointed out. In fact, I was going to do a video today but we had a freak lightning storm when we got home and just recently went away.

[Mark H]

What are your suggestions for alleviating the bat being "trapped"? Also, how high is the tee in the high tee drill? Thanks in advance....

As far as trapping, changing posture etc will change a lot of things. Let's see where he is after the first changes. The high tee drill actually came from an instructor by the name of Howard Hashida as far as I know. Set the ball on the tee about armpit high and tell the hand dropper to drive the ball on a line. Make sure you practice it first so you can irritate them by making it look easy. ;) Don't stay on it long because the drill promotes standing straight up BUT, it will give them the feel of staying connected or at least avoiding the hand/arm dropping disconnection. Once they get the feel, slowly lower the tee encouraging them to adjust by tilting rather than dropping the arms always being ready to move the tee back up when the regress. By the end, you can make the point the swing at the bottom of the zone is the same swing they use on that shoulder high pitch that looks so tempting to them IF they tilt.

[Mark H]

Thank you everyone. We worked on the hand position and posture (tilt ) today. For the hands, we observed the gif of the man with the weight stack and keeping the top hand from pancaking out by concentrating on body pulling(rotating). For bat placement, we copied Steve Englishbey on his website (bat barrel pointing forward behind his head while loading and making sure the bat doesnt drop behind his shoulder). What I saw was that the bat cleared his shoulder without it dropping behind.

For his posture and tilt when he swings, I put stickers on a wall at knee level, mid-thigh, waist, belly button, lower pecs and upper pecs level. He pretended he was hitting and visualizing the ball and he rotates his hips and shoulders and touches the sticker while maintaining the box. His front arm is kept in an L and the bat needs to be paralel to his shoulders. He had to slide the bat up the wall from the knee level, to mid thigh, and up and up and to feel the tilt of his shoulders in relation to the bat. After that, he would swing to the target and check his shoulder/bat plane and remain connected. I taped a wooden dowel to his shoulders to act as a guideline so he could visually see the shoulder and bat corellation.

(We did this at my work today)
We then went to the park on the way home and we practiced what he learned. I was impressed that he could still get the bat on the ball and how quickly he adapted to the tilting. I even threw really fast balls (faster than I ever did to him) and he could still get wood on the ball. He hit a ball really far on his good hits.

I will take video of him and show them to you. I hope we corrected the problems that you pointed out. In fact, I was going to do a video today but we had a freak lightning storm when we got home and just recently went away.

That is one of the most impressive posts I've ever seen in terms of insight, learning curve and application. I'm reminded of Ssarge's exponential learning curve.

[Mark H]

I believe this ...... since "bat tipping" is generally accomplished using a top arm/hand load that is superior to that demonstrated by this kid.

Definitely one way to approach it. One young budding elite hitter I'm aware of used it and then simplified things when struggling with superior pitching. At least that's what it looked like to me. It's an added complexity that may give great results or may add one too many pieces to the structure. Use it till it doesn't work.

[callyjr]

He's 9 years old!!!! Most 9 years olds are not mentally developed enough to handle the advanced overanalysis of a baseball swing to absorb anything taught to him. A 9 year old knows:

1. step
2. see ball
3. hit ball


possibly, but if you don't offer it to them then you will never know if they can handle it or not. I have found kids that my son play with that can see video and make corrections and then others that are looking right past the screen when I am showing them their swing.


That being said, his swing looks good. I would only teach more if he asks to learn more.

interesting, thats like saying I only want them to learn to read if they want to.

[crazyhawk]

I also can't stand when people say comments like..."just let a 9 year old swing and he will figure it out...or, if he is interested, he can ask you." A 9 year old needs to understand the basics of a swing if they want to stay in baseball, otherwise, they will be playing right field, batting last and playing about 3 innings a game. That will make their baseball career over before it begins. I haven't met a kid who doesn't like a sport that they excel in. I also haven't seen many who like a sport that they aren't any good at. 9 year olds can certainly start to learn the basics of good hitting and then you can add on it if they continue to ask questions and they want to learn. I am not saying force baseball instruction on a kid...I am saying that it is silly to just think that a kid will be 12, look at dad and say "it's now time to teach me." He will be long gone from baseball at that point.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Thank you everyone. We worked on the hand position and posture (tilt ) today. For the hands, we observed the gif of the man with the weight stack and keeping the top hand from pancaking out by concentrating on body pulling(rotating). For bat placement, we copied Steve Englishbey on his website (bat barrel pointing forward behind his head while loading and making sure the bat doesnt drop behind his shoulder). What I saw was that the bat cleared his shoulder without it dropping behind.

For his posture and tilt when he swings, I put stickers on a wall at knee level, mid-thigh, waist, belly button, lower pecs and upper pecs level. He pretended he was hitting and visualizing the ball and he rotates his hips and shoulders and touches the sticker while maintaining the box. His front arm is kept in an L and the bat needs to be paralel to his shoulders. He had to slide the bat up the wall from the knee level, to mid thigh, and up and up and to feel the tilt of his shoulders in relation to the bat. After that, he would swing to the target and check his shoulder/bat plane and remain connected. I taped a wooden dowel to his shoulders to act as a guideline so he could visually see the shoulder and bat corellation.

(We did this at my work today)
We then went to the park on the way home and we practiced what he learned. I was impressed that he could still get the bat on the ball and how quickly he adapted to the tilting. I even threw really fast balls (faster than I ever did to him) and he could still get wood on the ball. He hit a ball really far on his good hits.

I will take video of him and show them to you. I hope we corrected the problems that you pointed out. In fact, I was going to do a video today but we had a freak lightning storm when we got home and just recently went away.

Can't say I agree with everything you are doing, but given the age of the kid I'm inclined not to over complicate the topic.

I do find the recommendation to maintain an 'L' with the front arm questionable ... and I think if you review most videos that you'll see that the lead arm is generally extended at contact

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Manny_contact.jpg

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/contact_20051001MLBPhiladelphiaPhilliesChaseUtley. jpg

IMO that's not a minor detail.

Your description reminded me of some students that have been taught a "maintain the box" approach that I had to re-teach how to properly load, as these kids had a non-optimal load pattern ..... and this, coupled with the recommendation to maintain an 'L' in the front arm, is a signature of some swings that I have to clean up.

For now, I think the kid will progress .... but what you describe is not a high level pattern.

[Mark H]

possibly, but if you don't offer it to them then you will never know if they can handle it or not. I have found kids that my son play with that can see video and make corrections and then others that are looking right past the screen when I am showing them their swing..

I suppose it's learning differences. Modalities is it called? Some kids are visual learners, others learn by hearing, others need to put their hands on something to learn.

[Mark H]

Can't say I agree with everything you are doing, but given the age of the kid I'm inclined not to over complicate the topic. . I really like the visual aids/constraints he's using.

I do find the recommendation to maintain an 'L' with the front arm questionable ... and I think if you review most videos that you'll see that the lead arm is generally extended at contact
.

I too agree that ME's focus on keeping an L is not something I'd strive for. I like the hands loaded a little farther back. OTOH, this clip shows a little more flexion than your clip along with increasing flexion to adjust.http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=13&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

[new2thesport]

Can't say I agree with everything you are doing, but given the age of the kid I'm inclined not to over complicate the topic.

I do find the recommendation to maintain an 'L' with the front arm questionable ... and I think if you review most videos that you'll see that the lead arm is generally extended at contact



IMO that's not a minor detail.

Your description reminded me of some students that have been taught a "maintain the box" approach that I had to re-teach how to properly load, as these kids had a non-optimal load pattern ..... and this, coupled with the recommendation to maintain an 'L' in the front arm, is a signature of some swings that I have to clean up.

For now, I think the kid will progress .... but what you describe is not a high level pattern.


http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Manny_contact.jpg

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/Capture.jpg

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/contact_20051001MLBPhiladelphiaPhilliesChaseUtley. jpg



As you can see, he looks more like these (above) than this:



http://www.firstpickclub.com/images/manny_contact%20with%20markup.jpg

We have the above picture on his wall and we strive to look like that. (We assume that is the correct way) I guess we were wrong.

or what he is doing now is correct. (POC)

I dont know, I am more confused now than ever.

[Ursa Major]

Crazyhawk said: I also can't stand when people say comments like..."just let a 9 year old swing and he will figure it out...or, if he is interested, he can ask you." A 9 year old needs to understand the basics of a swing if they want to stay in baseball, otherwise, they will be playing right field, batting last and playing about 3 innings a game. That will make their baseball career over before it begins. I haven't met a kid who doesn't like a sport that they excel in. I also haven't seen many who like a sport that they aren't any good at. 9 year olds can certainly start to learn the basics of good hitting and then you can add on it if they continue to ask questions and they want to learn. I am not saying force baseball instruction on a kid...I am saying that it is silly to just think that a kid will be 12, look at dad and say "it's now time to teach me." He will be long gone from baseball at that point.CH, I'm not sure I'd phrase it exactly the way that you have -- I think a later starter can remain in the game and still enjoy it at age 12 -- but you are dead on. A 9 year old is at exactly the right age to get his infrastructure and basic movement patterns in place. By age 10, the bad habits will start to get locked in, and his 11 and 12 years will be spent trying to get the slop out of his swing. You don't need to be obsessed to get a kid at that age used to a well-structured swing.

In some ways, it easier for weak kids at that age to work with a good rotational swing. I've seen so many pencil-armed kids at that age try to jerk the bat around with their arms and never even make contact. With PCR mechanics and a well-drilled set up, all they have to do is to turn into the ball and they can get it into the outfield. I saw one 7/8 y/o coach pitch team last year which had all been taught PCR swings, and it was fun to see even the tiniest come up and with their well-connected, full-body swings pop the ball into the outfield. Sure, some swung and missed, but everyone was a threat.

FiveFrameSwing said: I do find the recommendation to maintain an 'L' with the front arm questionable ... and I think if you review most videos that you'll see that the lead arm is generally extended at contactRemember who specifically we're dealing with -- a 9 year old boy with pronounced disconnection issues. There is no way that this kid is going to maintain an "L" all the way through contact on other than an inside pitch. So, I think the risk of drilling into his head that he should at least try to maintain the "L" as long as possible is pretty minimal.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I really like the visual aids/constraints he's using.



I too agree that ME's focus on keeping an L is not something I'd strive for. I like the hands loaded a little farther back. OTOH, this clip shows a little more flexion than your clip along with increasing flexion to adjust.http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=13&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

Bottom line, the path he's chosen will improve his current situation.

Would have liked to have seen the lead arm "L" recommendation not used, and feel the "box maintainence" can lead to curbing hip/shoulder spatial separation, especially when a student takes this literally (and the suggestion of the lead arm maintaining an 'L' suggests to me that the box is being too tightly maintained) .... would prefer some leeway for stretch & fire type mechanics ('walking away from the hands', 'hands reaching back as the front leg reaches forward', etc.). The kid is only 7 ..... all things In good time I suppose.

Will be interested to see a follow up clip once he's had some time to build some new muscle memory.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Remember who specifically we're dealing with -- a 9 year old boy with pronounced disconnection issues. There is no way that this kid is going to maintain an "L" all the way through contact on other than an inside pitch. So, I think the risk of drilling into his head that he should at least try to maintain the "L" as long as possible is pretty minimal.

I'm glad you wrote this.

The dad just followed up with a photo of Manny hitting an inside pitch ..... IMO that shouldn't be the objective.

The other issue with telling a kid to maintain an "L" resides earlier in the swing during the hand/barrel load ...... as requiring a 90-degree angle in the lead arm will restrict the stretch-&-fire mechanics and curb hip/shoulder spatial separation. The requirement of maintaining an "L" in the lead arm during the top arm/hand load will make for too rigid of a box and retard the X-stretch upon swing initiation.

IMO the kid basically just needed to be taught a correct load. Why the need to tie him into a tightly restricted box that will inhibit high-level characteristics from being realized?

IMO he just needed to learn a smart hand/barrel load. Easy to do 1-on-1 .... a bit tougher to do over the Internet ..... allthough the dad does appear to be determined. I've often thought that BoardMember's description in this area of the swing has been extremely good.

[Mark H]

We have the above picture on his wall and we strive to look like that.

I'm gettin' the warm fuzzies again. I like the way this guy thinks.

[Mark H]

I'm glad you wrote this.

The dad just followed up with a photo of Manny hitting an inside pitch ..... IMO that shouldn't be the objective.
.

You have a point, he should be working on middle middle for now. But I DO love the way this guy thinks.

[Ursa Major]

FiveFrameSwing said: The other issue with telling a kid to maintain an "L" resides earlier in the swing during the hand/barrel load ...... as requiring a 90-degree angle in the lead arm will restrict the stretch-&-fire mechanics and curb hip/shoulder spatial separation. The requirement of maintaining an "L" in the lead arm during the top arm/hand load will make for too rigid of a box and retard the X-stretch upon swing initiation.While you and I likely will never agree much on the general need for early LAE ("Lead Arm Extensions"), you raise a good point that I was thinking of when I made my comment. There is a risk that a kid fixated on maintaining the box will have such a static, constrained unloading process that there will be little "dynamism" in his scap loading and back elbow drop, among other areas, and may end up with dead hands. I'm not sure that your "X-stretch" comment is directed at all these things, but I believe we're on sthe same wave length. Obviously, it will be a delicate balancing process for the Dad to not overdo the "box" cue so as to squeeze the fun and dynamism out of the swing. This dad is up to the challenge, I think. Again, this kid has significant enough disconnection problems and (on the opposite side of the ledger) enough "intent to hit" that I don't think a little emphasis on box maintenance will create much risk of those problems occurring any time soon.

This is why it's a little pointless to argue too much about which drills, cues and gurus are the best. Sometimes it all comes down to a single coach or dad knowing when to pull the plug on one set of cues and drills because of flaws that they're creating, and moving on to a different level of swing analysis and instruction. As "artists" in the coaching profession, we have to recognize that the canvas never starts out as a blank sheet, and it's always changing -- often in ways that you never contemplated.

Also, your reference to the picture of Manny makes me worry that my comment about inside pitches may have been unclear and misinterpreted. All I was saying is that the kid as he swings right now is not likely on his own to have a bent lead arm on any pitch, and, if he ever does, it most likely would be on an inside pitch. And if he does keep his arm straight, he likely would hit that pitch foul outside the third base line if he does make contact.

[omg]

The high tee drill actually came from an instructor by the name of Howard Hashida as far as I know.

Actually I heard Ron Polk, former MSU coach, talk of the high tee drill several years ago. One of his players questioned him as to the purpose of the drill. Polk replied:"Johnny, you swing at that pitch in the games. You might as well learn how to hit it!"

[hitnpeas]

As far as trapping, changing posture etc will change a lot of things. Let's see where he is after the first changes. The high tee drill actually came from an instructor by the name of Howard Hashida as far as I know. Set the ball on the tee about armpit high and tell the hand dropper to drive the ball on a line. Make sure you practice it first so you can irritate them by making it look easy. ;) Don't stay on it long because the drill promotes standing straight up BUT, it will give them the feel of staying connected or at least avoiding the hand/arm dropping disconnection. Once they get the feel, slowly lower the tee encouraging them to adjust by tilting rather than dropping the arms always being ready to move the tee back up when the regress. By the end, you can make the point the swing at the bottom of the zone is the same swing they use on that shoulder high pitch that looks so tempting to them IF they tilt.

Thanks for the detailed response....

[Mark H]

Actually I heard Ron Polk, former MSU coach, talk of the high tee drill several years ago. One of his players questioned him as to the purpose of the drill. Polk replied:"Johnny, you swing at that pitch in the games. You might as well learn how to hit it!"

LOL, Isn't THAT the truth. Course in fp Gomez from ULL liked that pitch best. Throw her up and in around the neck and the pitcher needed a new ball. Some people are good high ball hitters. If they are, and they can hit it for extra base power, green light.

[Chris O'Leary]

LOL, Isn't THAT the truth. Course in fp Gomez from ULL liked that pitch best. Throw her up and in around the neck and the pitcher needed a new ball. Some people are good high ball hitters. If they are, and they can hit it for extra base power, green light.

I think that Dustin Pedroia's extreme back knee hinge is designed in part to turn everything into a high pitch, just as Bonds armors up and crowds the plate to turn everything into an inside pitch.

http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Pedroia1.gif

[FiveFrameSwing]

While you and I likely will never agree much on the general need for early LAE ("Lead Arm Extensions"), you raise a good point that I was thinking of when I made my comment. There is a risk that a kid fixated on maintaining the box will have such a static, constrained unloading process that there will be little "dynamism" in his scap loading and back elbow drop, among other areas, and may end up with dead hands. I'm not sure that your "X-stretch" comment is directed at all these things, but I believe we're on sthe same wave length. Obviously, it will be a delicate balancing process for the Dad to not overdo the "box" cue so as to squeeze the fun and dynamism out of the swing. This dad is up to the challenge, I think. Again, this kid has significant enough disconnection problems and (on the opposite side of the ledger) enough "intent to hit" that I don't think a little emphasis on box maintenance will create much risk of those problems occurring any time soon.

This is why it's a little pointless to argue too much about which drills, cues and gurus are the best. Sometimes it all comes down to a single coach or dad knowing when to pull the plug on one set of cues and drills because of flaws that they're creating, and moving on to a different level of swing analysis and instruction. As "artists" in the coaching profession, we have to recognize that the canvas never starts out as a blank sheet, and it's always changing -- often in ways that you never contemplated.

Also, your reference to the picture of Manny makes me worry that my comment about inside pitches may have been unclear and misinterpreted. All I was saying is that the kid as he swings right now is not likely on his own to have a bent lead arm on any pitch, and, if he ever does, it most likely would be on an inside pitch. And if he does keep his arm straight, he likely would hit that pitch foul outside the third base line if he does make contact.

Thank you Ursa. It doesn't sound like we are too far off.

Normally we don't have to teach Early-LAE to a student. When we see someone maintain the "L" (a 90-degree bend) in their lead arm during their top arm/hand load/launch, then we generally find that the top arm/hand isn't ideally loaded ... nor is it in the ideal location within the Kinetic link. The concern of course is that this restriction would inhibit the sequence necessary for the X-streth (think in terms of "stretch & fire" mechanics leading to timely hip/shoulder spatial separation ... and perhaps this is what you mean by inhibiting the unloading process). In my opinion who ever is suggesting the requirement of a lead arm maintaining an "L" is making the box too restrictive and will ultimately limit the timely creation of hip/shoulder spatial separation.

When I think of someone trying to maintain the "L" in their lead arm I envision the teaching of swinging the hips & shoulders as an aligned unit .... and that of course is not what we want.

[callyjr]

The dad just followed up with a photo of Manny hitting an inside pitch ..... IMO that shouldn't be the objective.



When is a good age to learn to hit an inside pitch? If you can hit an inside pitch don't you think they will do whats natural to hit an outside pitch. Personally I think you teach what you can at this age and as they get older you keep adding as much as you can.

[new2thesport]

This is what I took today 12-31-08. Unfortunately, I used another camera and the batteries died right in the beginning.

We are working on the suggestions. Are we doing it right? (trying to correct the dropping)

Thanks again.

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/th_MVI_2441.jpg (http://s332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/?action=view&current=MVI_2441.flv)

[LAball]

hm, now he is lunging, His head is moving forward During the swing. Its ok for the head to move a bit forward during the step, but during the actual swing , it should stay still.

[hitnpeas]

What is the weight of that BURN he is swinging?

[Chris O'Leary]

hm, now he is lunging, His head is moving forward During the swing. Its ok for the head to move a bit forward during the step, but during the actual swing , it should stay still.

Swing looks a bit better, but he's trying to go get the ball rather than waiting for it to come to him.

[Jake Patterson]

Dad,
What I find best about the clips you send is the obvious work you and your son are doing. It reminds me what's best about the game. My boys (adults) and I still enjoy the game. That's what's most important...

[FiveFrameSwing]

Sorry, the same issue exists.

I wasn't able to convert the file to GIF format, otherwise I'd highlight the early inversion the top hand and the resulting draggy swing.

[omg]

This is what I took today 12-31-08. Unfortunately, I used another camera and the batteries died right in the beginning.

We are working on the suggestions. Are we doing it right? (trying to correct the dropping)

Thanks again.

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/th_MVI_2441.jpg (http://s332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/?action=view&current=MVI_2441.flv)

I still think the timing of his stride is way off. Once he finishes his stride his hands should remain above his shoulder either paused or moving backwards.
I do not suggest he works on ANYTHING else until he masters this simple but important idea. As it stands now, this move is flawed and he has no chance of swinging succesfully after the flawed move-the swing can't be recovered.

[new2thesport]

LAball
Thank you, I will let him know.

hitnpeas
The Miken is 29inches 17 oz. He got it for Christmas and we are trying to break it in.(I read that you need to hit it 150+times with real baseballs to break it in).
His normal bat, Demarini Vexxum is 29inches 15.5 oz.

Chris O'Leary
Thank you, thats what I saw at his evaluations. It look like"he wanted to attack the ball". I will him to wait for the ball.

Jake Patterson
Thank you so much. I cherish the moments. I have always made time for my son. I feel fortunate because I know many parents dont or cant spend as much time with their children. I count my blessings everyday, even the days when he gets upset. He excels in academics and constantly is reading books. I am proud of him. As a father, its the least I can do(trying to learn baseball) to assist him.

FiveFrameSwing
Okay. I read somewhere about a cue "going through the nipples" by Chris Yeager. Would that work to help solve the problem?
Also, I noticed his knocking knuckles arent alligned together. He now holds the bat with his punching knuckles and knocking knuckles alligned. I notice it last night when I posted the video. I asked him about it and he told me that he cannot swing the way I am telling him without his current grip. (The grip looks like the one in Ted Williams book on pages 40 and 41)

Thanks again everyone! I charged the batteries in the camera. Will work on it.

[new2thesport]

I still think the timing of his stride is way off. Once he finishes his stride his hands should remain above his shoulder either paused or moving backwards.
I do not suggest he works on ANYTHING else until he masters this simple but important idea. As it stands now, this move is flawed and he has no chance of swinging succesfully after the flawed move-the swing can't be recovered.
We will work on that today. To be honest, maybe I dont understand the stride. In the video I made yesterday, I thought it was what is called "the stride" that we were working on.

I showed him last night that he shouldnt initiate his forward swing to the ball until after his front foot touches. We looked at this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS4tvvPgbKk

I hope that is what you meant. Thank you OMG!

[omg]

We will work on that today. To be honest, maybe I dont understand the stride. In the video I made yesterday, I thought it was what is called "the stride" that we were working on.

I showed him last night that he shouldnt initiate his forward swing to the ball until after his front foot touches. We looked at this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS4tvvPgbKk

I hope that is what you meant. Thank you OMG!

Yes. You will see what I'm talking about with EVERY good hitter though.Without exception. I would exaggerate this point with your son. Maybe work on just this part without a ball and without completing a swing. Maybe then use a clapping drill: clap 1-stride with hands up and away, clap2-swing. Maybe vary the pauses between the claps. Something like that.

[FiveFrameSwing]

If someone would convert this swing to GIF and post it then that would help.

In the mean time here are two snap shots from the recent clip.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/delme/MVI_2441_01.jpg

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/delme/MVI_2441_02.jpg

I'm still seeing the same issue of prematurely allowing the palm of the top hand to face the sky.

So let's work on addressing this issue. There is a drill that Dr. Yeager shared with me that is simplistic and I've had some success with. I’ll explain the drill shortly, but first no drill is helpful if we don’t get some mechanical issues ironed out.

The hand/barrel load (i.e., the "launch") is still in need of a great deal of work.

Let’s start with a simple sequence. Starting from the stance the order will be to “load the back leg”, followed by “reaching back with the hands ***WHILE*** reaching forward with the front foot”. As the front foot touches down into foot-strike, the top-hand/arm should have just finished moving back. We want the top hand to complete reaching back just as the front foot has finished reaching forward. Moving the hands back prior to foot-strike will rob your son of some valuable attributes that we can discuss further if you wish. For now, do your best to get this sequence ironed out.

Now, how your son moves his hands back is a significant issue at the moment, so let’s address this.

One cue I’d like you to experiment with is “use the upper portion of your rear arm (humerus) to pull the ball out of the glove”. That probably sounds like a strange cue. It sounded strange to me at one time, so I can accept that. It also warrants further explanation.

View the photo below of an Olympic softball player preparing to make a sidearm throw.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/NatashW_Sidearm.jpg

Try to imagine how this lady is using her upper rear arm (humerus) to take the ball out of her glove. Notice the elbow height that accompanies this. Do not simply use the top-hand to pull the ball out of the glove .... use the rear humerus.

Now have your son experiment with this type of action as he "moves his hands back towards the catcher" during his launch. Have your son use his rear humerus (upper portion of his rear arm) to "take the ball out of the glove" (it's just a cue).

For now I'll assume that you'll obtain a stronger launch position from which to "launch" the swing.

So here's the drill.

Simply perform a "take". Yes, it's really that simple. Visualize that the pitcher is throwing at you and that you are responding by throwing (i.e., swinging) back at the pitcher .... but you "take", or "interrupt" your swing shortly after initiating it. Think of it as aborting your swing just prior to making a final committment.

Let's provide a bit more clarification. It's important to freeze your swing and take note. Specifically, I want your son to take note of the location and position of his top hand. Take a look at the video clips below .... and notice that the top hand is towards the top of the "slotted-V" .... the rear arm has a shape of a "V" and not a sideways "L". Also note that the palm of the top hand is not facing towards the sky, but more in a direction orientated towards the pitcher. Have your son perform a "take" and check that his top hand looks like what you see below.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/BondsSide_PowV.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Mannyswivel_PowV.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Manny21_PowV.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/RyanHoward_PowV.gif

The drill is simple. Have your son perform a "take" and confirm the position and orientation of the top hand. If he gets it right then reward him with a swing. Keep repeating this.

Even with advanced students it helps to mix in some "takes" in between their full cuts.

Seems simple doesn't it. It actually is. But, be patient. I've had kids that have cleaned this up quickly, and many that have taken two weeks, and a few that took a month or more. IMO some kids don't work as hard. Also, IMO, some kids need to "crash & burn" before they start doing their drills seriously.

Best of luck. Work on this for a week and report back with a video clip.

-FFS

[FiveFrameSwing]

Okay. I read somewhere about a cue "going through the nipples" by Chris Yeager. Would that work to help solve the problem?


Yes, this would help. In fact, this is what I recommend as a solution. See my post above. Review the video clips in that post and notice that the top hand is at the top of the slotted-V (Mankin refers to this as a "power-V", not to be confused with the power-V at extension). This is what Yeager means by having the top hand pass by the rear nipple.

I also recommended the "take" drill for addressing this ...... but not until you first address your son's hand/barrel load (i.e., his launch). If you can get the top-hand to go through this "power-V" position, or as Yeager says "have the top-hand pass by the rear nipple", then your son will be on his way to having a swing that is "short to contact and long through the zone".

We can talk more about the grip .... but for now have him do what is comfortable for him .... for some kids the "aligned door knocking" knuckles" that you mention can make it uncomfortable to obtain the top-hand/arm load/launch that we are after. If you persist with the aligned door knuckles, then we can discuss "radial deviation" which has helped some of my students .... but I'm afraid we'll be making things too complicated when what we need most right now is a correct hand/barrel load and correct hand path (and having the top-hand at the top of the power-V will address the hand path issue).

[hitnpeas]

If someone would convert this swing to GIF and post it then that would help.

In the mean time here are two snap shots from the recent clip.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/delme/MVI_2441_01.jpg

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/delme/MVI_2441_02.jpg

I'm still seeing the same issue of prematurely allowing the palm of the top hand to face the sky.

So let's work on addressing this issue. There is a drill that Dr. Yeager shared with me that is simplistic and I've had some success with. I’ll explain the drill shortly, but first no drill is helpful if we don’t get some mechanical issues ironed out.

The hand/barrel load (i.e., the "launch") is still in need of a great deal of work.

Let’s start with a simple sequence. Starting from the stance the order will be to “load the back leg”, followed by “reaching back with the hands ***WHILE*** reaching forward with the front foot”. As the front foot touches down into foot-strike, the top-hand/arm should have just finished moving back. We want the top hand to complete reaching back just as the front foot has finished reaching forward. Moving the hands back prior to foot-strike will rob your son of some valuable attributes that we can discuss further if you wish. For now, do your best to get this sequence ironed out.

Now, how your son moves his hands back is a significant issue at the moment, so let’s address this.

One cue I’d like you to experiment with is “use the upper portion of your rear arm (humerus) to pull the ball out of the glove”. That probably sounds like a strange cue. It sounded strange to me at one time, so I can accept that. It also warrants further explanation.

View the photo below of an Olympic softball player preparing to make a sidearm throw.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/NatashW_Sidearm.jpg

Try to imagine how this lady is using her upper rear arm (humerus) to take the ball out of her glove. Notice the elbow height that accompanies this. Do not simply use the top-hand to pull the ball out of the glove .... use the rear humerus.

Now have your son experiment with this type of action as he "moves his hands back towards the catcher" during his launch. Have your son use his rear humerus (upper portion of his rear arm) to "take the ball out of the glove" (it's just a cue).

For now I'll assume that you'll obtain a stronger launch position from which to "launch" the swing.

So here's the drill.

Simply perform a "take". Yes, it's really that simple. Vision that the pitcher is throwing at you and that you are responding by throwing (i.e., swinging) back at the pitcher .... but you "take", or "interrupt" your swing shortly after initiating it. Think of it as aborting your swing just prior to making a final committment.

Let's provide a bit more clarification. It's important to freeze your swing and take note. Specifically, I want your son to take note of the location and position of his top hand. Take a look at the video clips below .... and notice that the top hand is towards the top of the "slotted-V" .... the rear arm has a shape of a "V" and not a sideways "L". Also note that the palm of the top hand is not facing towards the sky, but more in a direction orientated towards the pitcher. Have your son perform a "take" and check that his top hand looks like what you see below.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/BondsSide_PowV.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Mannyswivel_PowV.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Manny21_PowV.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/RyanHoward_PowV.gif

The drill is simple. Have your son perform a "take" and confirm the position and orientation of the top hand. If he gets it right then reward him with a swing. Keep repeating this.

Even with advanced students it helps to mix in some "takes" in between their full cuts.

Seems simple doesn't it. It actually is. But, be patient. I've had kids that have cleaned this up quickly, and many that have taken two weeks, and a few that took a month or more. IMO some kids don't work as hard. Also, IMO, some kids need to "crash & burn" before they start doing their drills seriously.

Best of luck. Work on this for a week and report back with a video clip.

-FFS

A+++ post right here!! Thanks FFS for always being very thorough in your explanations while keeping it simple enough for the majority to comprehend. :applaud:

[mnh999]

FiveFrame, would you please expand a bit on this "palm toward the pitcher" cue that you are recommending as the hands pass through the nipple? When I watch the vidoes you posted, I "think" I am seeing the top hand starting to get flat as is passes that point in the swing that you describe. NO, it's not flat (palm facing the sky), but it doesn't appear to facing the pitcher either. It seems to be in the middle of the process of getting flat. Kind of at a 45 degree angle, for a lack of better way of describing it.

Not sure if I'm making sense with my description. If you can understand what I'm describing, I am assuming this is OK with the swing check you are describing?

thanks,

[rkbenn]

I dont know, I am more confused now than ever.

Can u imagine how your 9 year old feels? Been there....last year. I made things simple and have been building on his swing since.

[rkbenn]

FiveFrame, would you please expand a bit on this "palm toward the pitcher" cue that you are recommending as the hands pass through the nipple? When I watch the vidoes you posted, I "think" I am seeing the top hand starting to get flat as is passes that point in the swing that you describe. NO, it's not flat (palm facing the sky), but it doesn't appear to facing the pitcher either. It seems to be in the middle of the process of getting flat. Kind of at a 45 degree angle, for a lack of better way of describing it.

Not sure if I'm making sense with my description. If you can understand what I'm describing, I am assuming this is OK with the swing check you are describing?

thanks,

Look at the GIF of Manny where it stops in the "v" as he starts his swing. Look at his palm of his top hand...facing pitcher not the sky.

[Encinitas]

Look at the GIF of Manny where it stops in the "v" as he starts his swing. Look at his palm of his top hand...facing pitcher not the sky.

I have posted many, many clips to FFS and his leader showing that that top hand better be palm up early. Now that that issue has been proven it seems we've now moved to the top hand facing the pitcher as we launch into the Power-V. A little revision....

The problem with this hitter's turning of the top hand is not that it's early. The problem is it's turning before the hips have committed.

Now there is no doubt the hitter could get a better loading in the back arm/shoulder. But stare at the back hip of Kent. Then stare at the hands. You must see the immediate turning of the hands while they start their move, and after the rear hip is fired. The flattening of the bat (top hand getting to palm up early) is the swing. You do not want to drag the hands forward several inches before the hands start to turn.

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/kent0809side.gif

[rkbenn]

I have posted many, many clips to FFS and his leader showing that that top hand better be palm up early. Now that that issue has been proven it seems we've now moved to the top hand facing the pitcher as we launch into the Power-V. A little revision....

The problem with this hitter's turning of the top hand is not that it's early. The problem is it's turning before the hips have committed.

Now there is no doubt the hitter could get a better loading in the back arm/shoulder. But stare at the back hip of Kent. Then stare at the hands. You must see the immediate turning of the hands while they start their move, and after the rear hip is fired. The flattening of the bat (top hand getting to palm up early) is the swing. You do not want to drag the hands forward several inches before the hands start to turn.

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/kent0809side.gif

Yeah...one of the first thing this kid does is drop the barrell of the bat, palm up creating that long swing....and in the case of my son, a bad angle to the ball to boot.

[FiveFrameSwing]

FiveFrame, would you please expand a bit on this "palm toward the pitcher" cue that you are recommending as the hands pass through the nipple? When I watch the vidoes you posted, I "think" I am seeing the top hand starting to get flat as is passes that point in the swing that you describe. NO, it's not flat (palm facing the sky), but it doesn't appear to facing the pitcher either. It seems to be in the middle of the process of getting flat. Kind of at a 45 degree angle, for a lack of better way of describing it.

Not sure if I'm making sense with my description. If you can understand what I'm describing, I am assuming this is OK with the swing check you are describing?

thanks,

I wouldn't get overly concerned about the orientation of the palm unless you're dealing with a student suffering from bat drag .... such as with this young hitter.

In this case we're dealing with a hitter that prematurely orientates the palm of the top-hand skyward and the result is a draggy swing.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/delme/MVI_2441_01.jpg

Obviously the top hand/arm starts from a pronated orientation, then supinates, then transistions from supination to pronation at which point the hand is "palm up" (think near contact) and then pronates as the top-hand passes the bottom-hand. I view this as a natural "one-piece" top hand throw/swing.

So let's discuss this ..... as this ties in nicely with those that believe that THT is something to be focused on, whereas I think the particular action is the result of a simple top-hand/arm natural throw.

My premise is that the action of a natural “top hand/arm sidearm throw”, from a pronated top hand/arm position (i.e., a good hand/barrel load), provides the barrel-turning action promoted by advocates of the THT and second-engine concepts.

Let me explain.

Consider the hand/barrel loaded such that the barrel tilts back towards the field … see photo below.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/82140285.jpg

The top arm/hand is in a pronated position. The palm of the top hand is pointed half-way between the ground and back towards the pitcher.

It is very difficult to move the top hand/arm forward from a pronated position. When one makes a sidearm throw from this position one does not begin by moving the top hand forward … but by supinating the top arm/hand as the top arm slots.

As the top arm/hand performs a sidearm throwing motion, it slots, and the supination of the top arm/hand causes the top hand/arm to apply a force that directs the barrel rearward.

At contact the top hand/arm will be undergoing a transition from supination to pronation. Many refer to this transition as a “palm up” position. In a sense, one could state that pronation has been initiated at contact … but in reality it is going through the transition from supination to pronation and as such the palm is in a "palm up" position.

Those that attempt to maintain a palm-up orientation into extension end up curtailing the natural top arm/hand throwing action and would be better off to continue the natural sidearm throwing motion of the top hand and allow pronation to occur into extension (see video clips below).

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/TopHandPastBottomHand/CaitlinBenji2005UCLA_FView_tophandpastbothand.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/TopHandPastBottomHand/Pudge_tophandpastbothand.gif


From the top hand/arm perspective, this is a one-piece swing … one that begins with the top hand/arm in a pronated position, supinates during the slotting process, transistions from supination to pronation at contact, and pronates into extension. From a top hand/arm perspective, the swing is a natural sidearm throw.

IMO, one does not need to purposely teach moving the top hand so as to create the backwards arc of the barrel. This action will occur if the student correctly performs a top hand/arm sidearm throw from a top hand/arm pronated position … and hence the importance of the hand/barrel load.

IMO the hand/barrel load is important in terms of achieving the barrel arc demonstrated by a large percentage of MLB hitters.

IMO the action of the top hand/arm can be taught from the perspective of a natural sidearm throw.

IMO the sidearm throw should be a “natural” “one-piece” “sidearm throw” and not one that is interrupted with an attempt to maintain a palm-up orientation with a push/shove of the top hand through contact to extension.

IMO the concept that the second-engine/THT advocates attempt to realize can be accomplished simply by teaching students to obtain a suitable top hand/arm pronated position (hand/barrel load) and then performing a natural sidearm throw.

-FFS

[FiveFrameSwing]

Yeah...one of the first thing this kid does is drop the barrell of the bat, palm up creating that long swing....and in the case of my son, a bad angle to the ball to boot.

Exactly, and if the top hand didn't go palm up early then he wouldn't be dropping the bat barrel like he is.

Here's another cue that Chris Yeager uses for this situation .... "Keep the Bat UP!"

[FiveFrameSwing]

I have posted many, many clips to FFS and his leader showing that that top hand better be palm up early.


Glad you posted this.

IMO this kid's swing is a good example for why one needs to be careful with such advice.

Obviously this is WAY too early.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/delme/MVI_2441_01.jpg

Telling someone with a swing like this to focus on getting their top hand "palm up" early would be a move in the wrong direction. What this kid needs to learn is how to get his top hand/arm in a nice loaded launch position, such that the top hand/arm begins in a pronated state, and then transistions from there (supination, transistion from supination to pronation, to pronation) to what is IMO a natural one-piece throw/swing. Teach this "natural" sidearm throw/swing and there is no need to worry about telling someone to get their palm up ..... nor is it wise for coaches to teach hitters to use a multi-piece top-hand motion in which they advocate "pushing" forward to extension with the top-hand "palm-up". A simple top-hand one-piece sidearm throw/swing is all that is needed .... no need for a second-engine focus nor a focus on a palm-up push to extension.

[Stealth]

Exactly, and if the top hand didn't go palm up early then he wouldn't be dropping the bat barrel like he is.

FFS - The issue is that the barrel drops while the hands remain behind the rear shoulder. What are the hands of the MLB guys doing once the barrel begins to move? They are not staying behind and below the shoulder. He needs to understand the correct hand path to the ball. That's why the high tee would be a good drill for this kid.

[FiveFrameSwing]

FFS - The issue is that the barrel drops while the hands remain behind the rear shoulder.


Yes, his top-hand went "palm up" too early and allowed the bat barrel to become "trapped" behind his rear shoulder.

[Stealth]

Yes, his top-hand went "palm up" too early and allowed the bat barrel to become "trapped" behind his rear shoulder.

Because he has no idea on what the correct hand path is. If his hands were going forward (staying close to the rear shoulder) as he was starting the swing it would not be as big an issue. It's not a "palm up" problem IMHO.

And don't forget strength is a big issue at this age in regards to bat drag.

[Encinitas]

Yes, his top-hand went "palm up" too early and allowed the bat barrel to become "trapped" behind his rear shoulder.

Once again I will reiterate the only reason it's early is because the bottom half hasn't committed.

However the first move of the hands must be to start getting that palm up.

The best drill to fix this or get a feel for the timing Swingbuster's son swinging into the heavy bag. Very simply time that feel of the top hand movement with the back hip opening.

For a guy who is supposed to have a "GroundUP" focus, this is one case where getting a little coil and back hip emphasis will help the kid a lot.

Look if you just lay the bat back or let's call it flatten then swing then the palm gets up early. If he gets a the lower body working it will all blend a lot smoother into one movement.

[mnh999]

I wouldn't get overly concerned about the orientation of the palm unless you're dealing with a student suffering from bat drag .... such as with this young hitter.

In this case we're dealing with a hitter that prematurely orientates the palm of the top-hand skyward and the result is a draggy swing.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/delme/MVI_2441_01.jpg

Obviously the top hand/arm starts from a pronated orientation, then supinates, then transistions from supination to pronation at which point the hand is "palm up" (think near contact) and then pronates as the top-hand passes the bottom-hand. I view this as a natural "one-piece" top hand throw/swing.

So let's discuss this ..... as this ties in nicely with those that believe that THT is something to be focused on, whereas I think the particular action is the result of a simple top-hand/arm natural throw.

My premise is that the action of a natural “top hand/arm sidearm throw”, from a pronated top hand/arm position (i.e., a good hand/barrel load), provides the barrel-turning action promoted by advocates of the THT and second-engine concepts.

Let me explain.

Consider the hand/barrel loaded such that the barrel tilts back towards the field … see photo below.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/82140285.jpg

The top arm/hand is in a pronated position. The palm of the top hand is pointed half-way between the ground and back towards the pitcher.

It is very difficult to move the top hand/arm forward from a pronated position. When one makes a sidearm throw from this position one does not begin by moving the top hand forward … but by supinating the top arm/hand as the top arm slots.

As the top arm/hand performs a sidearm throwing motion, it slots, and the supination of the top arm/hand causes the top hand/arm to apply a force that directs the barrel rearward.

At contact the top hand/arm will be undergoing a transition from supination to pronation. Many refer to this transition as a “palm up” position. In a sense, one could state that pronation has been initiated at contact … but in reality it is going through the transition from supination to pronation and as such the palm is in a "palm up" position.

Those that attempt to maintain a palm-up orientation into extension end up curtailing the natural top arm/hand throwing action and would be better off to continue the natural sidearm throwing motion of the top hand and allow pronation to occur into extension (see video clips below).

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/TopHandPastBottomHand/CaitlinBenji2005UCLA_FView_tophandpastbothand.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/TopHandPastBottomHand/Pudge_tophandpastbothand.gif


From the top hand/arm perspective, this is a one-piece swing … one that begins with the top hand/arm in a pronated position, supinates during the slotting process, transistions from supination to pronation at contact, and pronates into extension. From a top hand/arm perspective, the swing is a natural sidearm throw.

IMO, one does not need to purposely teach moving the top hand so as to create the backwards arc of the barrel. This action will occur if the student correctly performs a top hand/arm sidearm throw from a top hand/arm pronated position … and hence the importance of the hand/barrel load.

IMO the hand/barrel load is important in terms of achieving the barrel arc demonstrated by a large percentage of MLB hitters.

IMO the action of the top hand/arm can be taught from the perspective of a natural sidearm throw.

IMO the sidearm throw should be a “natural” “one-piece” “sidearm throw” and not one that is interrupted with an attempt to maintain a palm-up orientation with a push/shove of the top hand through contact to extension.

IMO the concept that the second-engine/THT advocates attempt to realize can be accomplished simply by teaching students to obtain a suitable top hand/arm pronated position (hand/barrel load) and then performing a natural sidearm throw.

-FFS

FFS, thanks for that info. One last question. You exclusively mention only the top hand/arm throughout the post. I'm sure it's because that is what I specifically asked about. But what, in your opinion, is the role of the bottom hand in this? thanks

[FiveFrameSwing]

Once again I will reiterate the only reason it's early is because the bottom half hasn't committed.


I'm not trying to be funny .... but you're basically saying "it's early because it's early".

I guess another way to look at this is that everything else is late.

Bottom line .... this kid gets his top-hand palm-up way too early relative to the rest of his swing.

The general HI advice of focusing on getting the top hand palm-up early is potentially harmful, and not even remotely helpful for this individual.

[FiveFrameSwing]

FFS, thanks for that info. One last question. You exclusively mention only the top hand/arm throughout the post. I'm sure it's because that is what I specifically asked about. But what, in your opinion, is the role of the bottom hand in this? thanks

Well, to be honest, the bottom hand/arm does play a role.

I'm not so sure this player would benefit from that knowledge just yet ... and we won't know until they first attempt to fix their launch (hand/barrel load) and then post another video clip.

I'm pretty certain if we bring up the topic of Early Lead Arm Extension, and how it plays into "connection", what "connection" actually is (that being an "action" and not a condition/position .... and what that "action" actually is). What I'd like to learn about this kid is if he makes an improvement in his launch (hand/barrel load) if he'll have a "connected swing" (not a swing being pulled by shoulder rotation, but a real connected swing) ........ and this is one of the reasons that I didn't like the earlier notion from the dad about trying to maintain an "L" with the lead arm.

[HYP]

I'm not trying to be funny .... but you're basically saying "it's early because it's early".

I guess another way to look at this is that everything else is late.

Bottom line .... this kid gets his top-hand palm-up way too early relative to the rest of his swing.

The general HI advice of focusing on getting the top hand palm-up early is potentially harmful, and not even remotely helpful for this individual.
FFS,

If I'm reading correctly and I beleive I am. No one is advocating. Palm up then swing. the flattening is the swing. Early bat speed ability to hit deeper in the zone. If you keep the palm facing the pitcher to long your bat speed will be out front.

[FiveFrameSwing]

FFS,

If I'm reading correctly and I beleive I am. No one is advocating. Palm up then swing. the flattening is the swing. Early bat speed ability to hit deeper in the zone. If you keep the palm facing the pitcher to long your bat speed will be out front.

Thank you for the clarification Hyp. The notion of recommending getting the palm up early to this kid isn't the way to go.

Generally I start with clearing up lower body mechanics first, and IMO this kids "negative move" (loading of the back leg) could be improved ..... see clips below. However, when I get a student with a poor hand/barrel load like this then I address that first.

If we could get this kid to a strong launch position (hopefully in a sequence in which he first loaded his rear leg, and then launched his hands/arms as he reached forward with his front leg) then I'd like to see what his swing looked like from there.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/delme/Batdragger__Swing1.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/delme/Batdragger__Swing2.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/delme/Batdragger__Swing3.gif

[new2thesport]

Okay, today we tried the high tee drill that Mark H described. I also did the drills that FiveFrameSwing recommended.
Are we doing it correctly and I hope I followed the drills correctly.
Thanks for the help!

1-1-09

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/th_MVI_2478.jpg (http://s332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/?action=view&current=MVI_2478.flv)

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/th_MVI_2458.jpg (http://s332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/?action=view&current=MVI_2458.flv)

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/th_MVI_2460.jpg (http://s332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/?action=view&current=MVI_2460.flv)

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/th_MVI_2455.jpg (http://s332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/?action=view&current=MVI_2455.flv)

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/th_MVI_2449.jpg (http://s332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/?action=view&current=MVI_2449.flv)

[Mark H]

Ball should go level or slightly up on the high tee drill but enough of that for the moment. Let's move back to working on the middle middle pitch. Look at this posture at the beginning of this swing and during it. Let's see a clip of you or him demonstrating this. Slow is ok if you have to.http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=0&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

[FiveFrameSwing]

I like MarkH's approach .... he wants to slow things down to make sure there is an understanding.

While you are at it .... please move the tee further up front so that it is about even with your son's front foot after he has finished his 'stride'. Having the tee back behind his front foot looks to be encouraging some "spinning" .... something that wasn't an issue earlier.

I don't think you understood the cue of "taking the ball out of the glove using the rear humerus". We still need to improve your son's hand/barrel load and get him to a stronger launch position.

In the clip below there is a 3sec pause in which Ryan Howard's rear arm is circled in red.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/delme/RyanHoward_ReadyPosition_PowV.gif

Notice Ryan Howard's rear arm. Notice that his hands aren't way above his rear elbow when he's in his launch position. Now take a look at your son in his "ready position" ....

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/delme/FixLaunch.jpg


Your son's hands are well above his rear elbow .... that's very different from what you see with Ryan .... and since we'd like to remove a bat drag issue from you son's swing, we'd like to see if you could obtain a "ready position" more liky Ryan Howard's "ready position".

Please review my post above in which I attempted to describe using the upper rear arm to pull the ball out of the glove .... your son is primarily using his hands to move from his "stance" to "launch".

Let's try another approach. Look at the clip of Ryan above and focus on his "ready position". I'd like to see if you could duplicate getting your son's launch to look something like this.

While you're at it ..... see if you can get your son's swing to not only get to a launch similar to this, but to get to the Power-V from here.

[Mark H]

And don't counter rotate away from the pitcher more than slightly. The tee encourages this since he's looking down in front at the tee instead of out toward the pitcher.

[new2thesport]

Mark H and FiveFrameSwing,

I shown him the responses from you folks. He was enthusiastic to try and do it correctly. He wanted me to take videos of him to show to you guys.

Here they are:

Mark H:

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/th_100_2509.jpg (http://s332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/?action=view&current=100_2509.flv)


FiveFrameSwing:

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/th_100_2513.jpg (http://s332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/?action=view&current=100_2513.flv)

He stated,"Like this?

Thank you gentlemen!

[Mark H]

Yeah. Good progress. Still watch the counter rotation I see on the clip shot from across the plate.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Huge improvement in terms of addressing the hand/barrel load.

I'd like to see him hit off of a tee with this swing ..... but do me a favor and post the clips to Utube ..... that way I can convert these to GIFs and provide back more visual feedback.

Now ..... you're not out of the woods yet. I'm going to ask you to improve his sequence. I want to see the lower body better synchronized with the upper body. I want to see your son load the inside thigh of his rear leg (negative move) AND THEN perform the "launch with his rear arm/hand WHILE reaching forward with his front leg". Right now he's loading his inside back leg WHILE performing his launch, and then reaching forward with his front leg.

So we're looking for a minor tweak in his sequence. Move the launch so that it occurs after he initiates his loading of his rear back leg, and then perform the launch of the hands/arms WHILE reaching forward with the front leg.

I have a drill that can help your son synchronize the upper and lower body ..... but give it a try without the drill first. If it's frustrating then let me know and I'll write up a drill.

By the way ..... you impress me. Any dad willing to do this much work this quickly is on a mission.

Good progress ..... practice this new hand/barrel load and fire back some clips ..... and if you can post them to Utube then that would be helpful.

-FFS

[Encinitas]

FFS please tell me you understand I like the barrel up. This thread and your pending lecture has me laughing out loud. Jesus.

Now as FFS clearly knows I am a big believer in keeping the bat head up. However once it's time to go your hitter's top hand must engage.

Right now your batter looks better. I agree a bit too counter rotated.

Now look at your son with Jeff Kent here and pay attention to the barrel path.

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/notophand.gif

Don't let him fight to keep that palm facing the pitcher for so long. He doesn't really unload the top hand until right before he'd hit the ball.

It's very simple when the hips are turning the hands are turning. The sooner you create this barrel path the better off you'll be. Stare at your son's top hand and Jeff Kent's top hand:

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/notophandclose.gif

[Mark H]

New2,

You already have two guys from two different camps, who still repect each other, giving you advice. You add in the hand swivel crowd and you are begging for trouble. This advice is trouble anyway IMO. Good recipe for casting.

[Mark H]

By the way ..... you impress me. Any dad willing to do this much work this quickly is on a mission.-FFS

Amen on THAT one.

[Ursa Major]

I agree with what I think Stealth is saying, in that the early "palm up" position is almost as much a symptom as a cause. The problem is that his instincts tell him to drop the bathead pointed back toward the catcher to get the bat in the swing plane as early as possible. Those instincts are wrong, in that they don't help get the bat into the hitting zone any quicker.

Compare the last two very much improved swings to the .gif of Ryan Howard. What is happening with the back elbow up is this: when that elbow -- which is semi-rigidly connected to the cocked wrist -- drops, it causes the bathead to drop (and the to hand to turn palm up). This makes for a nice, smooth, powerful arc of the bathead -- so long as the shoulders are moving with the hands and the drop does not occur too soon.

This disconnection of the hands from the back shoulder is the crux of his problem, but the high back elbow seems to help a little bit. If you can do FFS' "take" drill (which is akin to Englishbey's "Drill No. 1"), that's great. But, incorporate this new higher elbow motion and make sure that the back shoulder is near the hands when the swing is checked. Then, as FFS suggests, let him continue with the swing occasionally when he gets the first part right. (I usually have the kids do two check swings and then allow them to hit away on the third.)

Continued use of the tee (like in the very first clip in your post #76) can help him avoid his tendency to push his hands toward the pitcher (what I call the super bunt position). But, I would put the tee even with where his front foot is when he strides. You'll notice in the bottom of those five clips he doesn't stride at all in order to be able to get the bathead around. One good way to see if he is pushing his hands improperly is to video tape the swing and see if -- at the POC ('point of contact') -- there is a straight line running from his left elbow to his hands to the tip of the bat. If not, then he's hitting the ball too far in front of the plate and losing the "whip" action.

[Encinitas]

New2,

You already have two guys from two different camps, who still repect each other, giving you advice. You add in the hand swivel crowd and you are begging for trouble. This advice is trouble anyway IMO. Good recipe for casting.

That's what's unfortunate for you newguy is that you have to decide for yourself.

If you look at the video you'll at least ask questions.

[Mark H]

I agree with what I think Stealth is saying, in that the early "palm up" position is almost as much a symptom as a cause. The problem is that his instincts tell him to drop the bathead pointed back toward the catcher to get the bat in the swing plane as early as possible. Those instincts are wrong, in that they don't help get the bat into the hitting zone any quicker.

Compare the last two very much improved swings to the .gif of Ryan Howard. What is happening with the back elbow up is this: when that elbow -- which is semi-rigidly connected to the cocked wrist -- drops, it causes the bathead to drop (and the to hand to turn palm up). This makes for a nice, smooth, powerful arc of the bathead -- so long as the shoulders are moving with the hands and the drop does not occur too soon.

This disconnection of the hands from the back shoulder is the crux of his problem, but the high back elbow seems to help a little bit. If you can do FFS' "take" drill (which is akin to Englishbey's "Drill No. 1"), that's great. But, incorporate this new higher elbow motion and make sure that the back shoulder is near the hands when the swing is checked. Then, as FFS suggests, let him continue with the swing occasionally when he gets the first part right. (I usually have the kids do two check swings and then allow them to hit away on the third.)

Continued use of the tee (like in the very first clip in your post #76) can help him avoid his tendency to push his hands toward the pitcher (what I call the super bunt position). But, I would put the tee even with where his front foot is when he strides. You'll notice in the bottom of those five clips he doesn't stride at all in order to be able to get the bathead around. One good way to see if he is pushing his hands improperly is to video tape the swing and see if -- at the POC ('point of contact') -- there is a straight line running from his left elbow to his hands to the tip of the bat. If not, then he's hitting the ball too far in front of the plate and losing the "whip" action.

Nothing wrong with starting the bat high. Good. I don't want him to start thinking this "It's very simple when the hips are turning the hands are turning." Recipe for casting or at the very least a wavy swing plane. Try the staring bat head position a little up and see how that works.

[Mark H]

That's what's unfortunate for you newguy is that you have to decide for yourself.

I think he's in pretty good hands with FFS judging by his son's clip and our conversations and I think the two of us can avoid tripping over each other.

If you look at the video you'll at least ask questions.

He certainly seems to be doing that.

[FiveFrameSwing]

FFS please tell me you understand I like the barrel up. This thread and your pending lecture has me laughing out loud. Jesus.

Now as FFS clearly knows I am a big believer in keeping the bat head up. However once it's time to go your hitter's top hand must engage.

Right now your batter looks better. I agree a bit too counter rotated.

Now look at your son with Jeff Kent here and pay attention to the barrel path.

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/notophand.gif

Don't let him fight to keep that palm facing the pitcher for so long. He doesn't really unload the top hand until right before he'd hit the ball.

It's very simple when the hips are turning the hands are turning. The sooner you create this barrel path the better off you'll be. Stare at your son's top hand and Jeff Kent's top hand:

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/notophandclose.gif

Encinitas,

I want to apologize if I came off as rude earlier.

Yes, I believe you understand the value of keeping the barrel up.

In terms of your comment on "once it's time to go your hitter's top hand must engage" .... I ask that you bear with me. If this dad stays with us long enough then after verifying a suitable hand/barrel load, and synchronizing it with a good lower body, then we'll return to the barrel load and you'll swear you'll be seeing the "second engine" ..... although what it will really be is the need for the top hand/arm to supinate to a greater amount due to the enhanced hand/barrel load and the initial pronated position of the top hand/arm.

Regarding your comment about over counter rotating ..... you are absolutely correct ..... so let's be specific here.

new2thesport: Ideally we'd like to see approximately 12-degrees of counter rotation ..... and by this I mean your son if over doing the counter rotation of his shoulders. Further, as MarkH said (or inferred) ..... we'd like to have your son looking ahead at an imaginary pitcher when he initiates his swing. We don't want his eyes meeting up with the ball on the tee until the bat barrel gets there. If you are going to error, then error on getting the eyes back to the ball on the tee late (after contact). This is something I do with my students as well ..... because they do a fair amount of tee work and we don't want any bad habits by swinging while having the head fixated on a ball sitting on the tee. In fact .... this alone, looking at an imaginary pitcher when performing the load, will help a great deal.

Yeager Cue: When the pitcher throws at you, then you throw/swing at the pitcher. To do this you'll want to be looking ahead at an imaginary pitcher when doing tee work.


Regarding your comparison to Kent .... I ask that you again bear with me. We will get to this and you'll better appreciate why I describe the top hand/arm as a one piece swing that transistions from supination to pronation. Trust me on this ..... you'll like what you call "early bat speed" and we won't even have to ask him to directly ask him to concentrate on this.

Right now ..... let's adjust the counter rotation, verify that his hand/barrel load is working properly. Then we'll synchronize his upper body to his lower body. You'll eventually hear me talk of the top hand passing the bottom hand, and while you'll cringe, within 3-5 days you'll see a result that you'll like.

Thank you.

-FFS

[FiveFrameSwing]

I think he's in pretty good hands with FFS judging by his son's clip and our conversations and I think the two of us can avoid tripping over each other.


I bet some folks would find it strange that MarkH and FFS would be working together.

It doesn't surprise me in the least ..... although a few years back I was scratching my head.

Feel free to re-instate my access to the private side of SE's website. You can start me off by giving me read-only access.

[Mark H]

Now that I can use the Encinitas clip to watch this frame by frame, there is one frame of push right before whip or where contact would have been. IOW, he pushed his hands forward to go meet the ball out front rather than just letting the whip happen letting the ball come deep. Overall though, you should be thrilled with the progress. Apparently, he learns well by emulation. Use that. Lots of good clips on here and you can pm me or any number of us for more clips than you have hard drive space for.

[Encinitas]

Encinitas,

I want to apologize if I came off as rude earlier.

Yes, I believe you understand the value of keeping the barrel up.

In terms of your comment on "once it's time to go your hitter's top hand must engage" .... I ask that you bear with me. If this dad stays with us long enough then after verifying a suitable hand/barrel load, and synchronizing it with a good lower body, then we'll return to the barrel load and you'll swear you'll be seing the "second engine" ..... although what it will really be is the need for the top hand/arm to supinate to a greater amount due to the enhanced hand/barrel load and the initial pronated position of the top hand/arm.

Regarding your comparison to Kent .... I ask that you again bear with me. We will get to this and you'll better appreciate why I describe the top hand/arm as a one piece swing that transistions from supination to pronation. Trust me on this ..... you'll like what you call "early bat speed" and we won't even have to ask him to directly ask him to concentrate on this.

Right now ..... let's adjust the counter rotation, verify that his hand/barrel load is working properly. Then we'll synchronize his upper body to his lower body. You'll eventually hear me talk of the top hand passing the bottom hand, and while you'll cringe, within 3-5 days you'll see a result that you'll like.

Thank you.

-FFS

FFS if you pull that off, you'll be better than your guru. Call me skeptical but what the hell I have time.

Bear in mind FFS that Kent is not all that pronated in the top hand. So taking this hitter and giving him a Vlad load would certainly require a greater running start but it isn't absolutely necessary for him to do it this way.

[Mark H]

I bet some folks would find it strange that MarkH and FFS would be working together.

It doesn't surprise me in the least ..... although a few years back I was scratching my head.

Feel free to re-instate my access to the private side of SE's website. You can start me off by giving me read-only access.

We understand our differences and are comfortable with each other's motivations.

[Mark H]

FFS if you pull that off, you'll be better than your guru. .

So far so good.

[Encinitas]

Duplicate Post

[LAball]

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/th_MVI_2478.jpg (http://s332.photobucket.com/albums/m349/whhmgc/?action=view&current=MVI_2478.flv)



Ok , I know the biggest problem to the swing now. Its the distraction.......
Damn thats a nice view! is that your back yard?

[Ursa Major]

Nice synergy going on here between FFS and MarkH. FFS, I think you're dead on about the over counter-rotation (though it's not the worst thing in the world to temporarily allow in a few drills to get the youngster the feel of just ripping at the ball), and about trying to avoid just staring at the ball on the tee, but trying to imagine the ball coming from the pitcher's hand.

This last point reinforces something that occasionally is stated here but which cannot be over-emphasized. Good hitting training requires a variety of hitting tools and stages in order to give the hitter the flexibility of mindset to deal with live pitching and the numerous variables that comes with it. Instructors should knowledgeably move the kid from partial swing drills, to dry swings, to tee hitting, to soft toss, to front toss, to BP to live scrimmages. A kid who spends 90% of his instructional time on one of those stages drifts further away from being able to hit live pitching.

For example, like this youngster, Ursa Minor has a tendency to push his hands toward the pitcher. When we're working in the backyard with wiffle balls and I see that happen, out comes the batting tee right on the front edge of home plate, and he swings where it's critical to keep the hands back in order to hit the ball up the middle. Once we get that muscle memory back in force, we can go back to hitting pitched balls again.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Now that I can use the Encinitas clip to watch this frame by frame, there is one frame of push right before whip or where contact would have been. IOW, he pushed his hands forward to go meet the ball out front rather than just letting the whip happen letting the ball come deep. Overall though, you should be thrilled with the progress. Apparently, he learns well by emulation. Use that. Lots of good clips on here and you can pm me or any number of us for more clips than you have hard drive space for.

MarkH,

We'll fix this ..... assuming that the parent sticks with us.

We'll explain a drill in which the top hand is "thrown" past the bottom hand .... and we'll show video clips of pros demonstrating this portion of the swing. As I've tried to describe already, we want the top-hand/arm to be a one piece throw/swing.

All things in good time.

Let's get the hand/barrel load cleaned up first. Verify it. Remove the excessive counter rotation. Then synchronize this to his lower body mechanics ..... and maybe even beefen up his lower body mechanics. Then we'll return to the upper body and take care of issues like this.

-FFS

[FiveFrameSwing]

FFS if you pull that off, you'll be better than your guru. Call me skeptical but what the hell I have time.

Bear in mind FFS that Kent is not all that pronated in the top hand. So taking this hitter and giving him a Vlad load would certainly require a greater running start but it isn't absolutely necessary for him to do it this way.

Encinitas,

You are correct.

However, what I've learned, or I believe I've learned, is that we can get the action you are looking for without asking the student to intentionly place an emphasis on turning the bat barrel. CY is correct. It can be viewed as external rotation / supination.

I'm not saying that the intentional/active/forced barrel rotation is wrong .... just that I've had bad results when going this route. What I've found that works well is paying attention to the relationship between hand/barrel load and the relationship to supination.

I think it was you that gave me that video on the barrel pointing back towards the field and the increase in drive. If so, take another look at that video. IMO it's pretty valuable.

-FFS

[FiveFrameSwing]

We understand our differences and are comfortable with each other's motivations.

I take that as a "no".

Can't blame me for trying.

No problem .... like you you said, we understand our differences and are comfortalbe with each other's positions.

[omg]

And don't counter rotate away from the pitcher more than slightly. The tee encourages this since he's looking down in front at the tee instead of out toward the pitcher.

This is also what I see. When working on this aspect (launch position) have your son look out at the pitcher,maybe winding up. Can your wife do a windup? I'd also like to see the hands BEGIN closer to the launch position. Your son doesnt need all that movement.

Fortunately, your son has talent: strength,flexibility, and balance. Simplify what I wrote above because his swing now looks dramaticaly better and he won't need much more.

[Stealth]

When working on this aspect (launch position) have your son look out at the pitcher,maybe winding up.

One of the MLB guys at our local facility says to just watch the ball on the tee, do not look at the pitcher per se and then move your eyes/head to the tee. I tend to agree, the issue is that youth hitters are searching for power and feel the need to counter rotate when using a tee.

I think it's time to see some clips with some front toss from about 15-20ft. In addition I would like to see him have the barrel in front of him rather than behind his head during the load.

FFS - you have that picture where you showed Utley's grip? It also shows the barrel position I am talking about.

[new2thesport]

FiveFrameSwing

Thank you. We will work on the 12 degree rotation today.
The other post: Now ..... you're not out of the woods yet. I'm going to ask you to improve his sequence. I want to see the lower body better synchronized with the upper body. I want to see your son load the inside thigh of his rear leg (negative move) AND THEN perform the "launch with his rear arm/hand WHILE reaching forward with his front leg". Right now he's loading his inside back leg WHILE performing his launch, and then reaching forward with his front leg.
So we're looking for a minor tweak in his sequence. Move the launch so that it occurs after he initiates his loading of his rear back leg, and then perform the launch of the hands/arms WHILE reaching forward with the front leg.,
went way over my head. I dont understand what it is.LOL!

Mark H

Thank you, I am glad that I am getting good instruction for my son!

LAball

Thats our front yard. We are above the road 3 acres in.!

Everyone else, Thank you so much for all the advice. It is truly appreciated.

[WoodButGood]

A lot of what folks are saying here is true, but I have to say, for a nine year old once he gets that bat coming past his midsection he has a very strong and natural sense of making full barrel contact and he's certainly rotating through the hit nicely. No question that he needs to develop a shorter stroke and not drop that bat head behind him.

A lot of what's wrong is probably muscular. I'd do this with a heavier wood bat for a couple weeks and then go to something lighter. It that helps, I'd put away the light stuff until the season starts.

[FiveFrameSwing]

FiveFrameSwing

Thank you. We will work on the 12 degree rotation today.
The other post: Now ..... you're not out of the woods yet. I'm going to ask you to improve his sequence. I want to see the lower body better synchronized with the upper body. I want to see your son load the inside thigh of his rear leg (negative move) AND THEN perform the "launch with his rear arm/hand WHILE reaching forward with his front leg". Right now he's loading his inside back leg WHILE performing his launch, and then reaching forward with his front leg.
So we're looking for a minor tweak in his sequence. Move the launch so that it occurs after he initiates his loading of his rear back leg, and then perform the launch of the hands/arms WHILE reaching forward with the front leg.,
went way over my head. I dont understand what it is.LOL!

Mark H

Thank you, I am glad that I am getting good instruction for my son!

LAball

Thats our front yard. We are above the road 3 acres in.!

Everyone else, Thank you so much for all the advice. It is truly appreciated.

new2thesport,

Once we are happy with your son's new hand/barrel load, then we'll need to synchronize his upper and lower body. This is actually very important and we can share a drill that will help with that.

We'll want to build "stretch & fire" mechanics into your son's swing so that he readily generates an "X-stretch" and optains timely "hip/shoulder spatial separation".

Hmmmm ..... so, what the heck did I just say? My guess is it doesn't make a lot of sense to you right now. So let's translate that to say that we would like to build a sequence of movements into your son's swing that serves as the second largest source of force generation in the elite-level swing. In other words, it's important enough to go after if you are serious about becoming a competitive hitter. In the process we'll beef up your son's primary source of force generation.

I may need to outline a few drills for you. But first, tell me if you are familiar with terms such as the "negative move", the "load" (as in the loading of the rear leg), or the "gather"? I'm trying to get a handle on a starting point to move on. The "load" (the loading of the rear leg) is important and I'll need you to get a specific sequence down starting with the "load".

-FFS

[FiveFrameSwing]

In addition I would like to see him have the barrel in front of him rather than behind his head during the load.


Stealth,

I normally don't begin by addressing issues with a student's upper body. I say normally, because this kid demonstrated the issue when I will first make a correction to the hand/barrel load first.

From here I progress to addressing lower body mechanics and synchronizing them to the upper body. Once the lower body mechanics are clean then the upper body issues become much easier to address, and some of them go away completely. What is frustrating for a student, IMO, is to address upper body issues and then make a significant change/refinement to the lower body ..... as the change to the lower body generally disrupts the work you just did with the upper body. After the lower body is clean we can move on to the upper body and address issues with hand path, bat whip, connection via the lead arm, and yes .... we can have the student experiment with a more advanced hand/barrel load (such as what you have described).

It's just a system for developing hitters that I follow. I'm not saying that another approach isn't better, I'm just saying that I've used this approach with reasonable success and I'm confident that it can produce improvements.

All that said .... your point is a good one. Depending on how far we take this then we'll get back to the hand/barrel load and have the student experiment with this. But first, IMO, there is still a lot remaining to be cleaned up.

-FFS

[Stealth]

All that said .... your point is a good one. Depending on how far we take this then we'll get back to the hand/barrel load and have the student experiment with this. But first, IMO, there is still a lot remaining to be cleaned up.

FFS - How hard is it to ask him to change where his hands/barrel are? Show him the picture of Utley, it will make a big difference. With the barrel behind his head he will almost always have issues.

[FiveFrameSwing]

FFS - How hard is it to ask him to change where his hands/barrel are? Show him the picture of Utley, it will make a big difference. With the barrel behind his head he will almost always have issues.

Stealth,

You have a good point .... a very good point in fact.

IMO, bat tipping is not an absolute, but it is definitely an enhancement. My intention is to come back and enhance this portion of the swing. What I was after at this point was obtaining a sufficient hand/barrel load that would allow us to move on with cleaning up the overall swing.

I suppose it is possible to spend more time on the hand/barrel load, but IMO not all students readily get this. Let's face it, some kids will be one-planers. Others readily handle the added barrel momentum and "barrel life". Keep in mind that we're not side-by-side communicating with the dad & son, but working over the Internet. My intent, assuming the dad is willing to go the distance, is to return to this portion of the swing and see if this boy is ready for a more enhanced hand/barrel load. About two weeks prior to introducing a 2-plane swing into a student's mechanics I begin beefing up their "live & independent rear hand/arm action" .... and from there I begin implementing the mechanics for an efficient 2-plane swing. IMO, the initial clips that the dad posted showed a relatively "dead" rear arm/hand action, and IMO wasn't ready to jump into a tip & rip. It's just a progression I follow ..... and I respect that others may have a different development sequence.

-FFS

[Mark H]

MarkH,

We'll fix this ..... assuming that the parent sticks with us.

We'll explain a drill in which the top hand is "thrown" past the bottom hand .... and we'll show video clips of pros demonstrating this portion of the swing. As I've tried to describe already, we want the top-hand/arm to be a one piece throw/swing.

Or we can get his hands out into the momentum path where great rotation will create good whip. :) Seriously, if this idea of a hand throw or bottom hand torque, is promoted late enough in the swing, as I've told Board, I'm not in the least worried about it. Any swing that gets to one frame before contact in good shape is not likely to be derailed by much of anything whichever of us is right.

[Mark H]

Encinitas,

You are correct.

However, what I've learned, or I believe I've learned, is that we can get the action you are looking for without asking the student to intentionly place an emphasis on turning the bat barrel. CY is correct. It can be viewed as external rotation / supination.

I'd say here that the question is what is cause and what is result, but I won't say that because I don't want to give Stealth a hint here yet to the answer to the question he keeps asking me. ;)

I'm not saying that the intentional/active/forced barrel rotation is wrong .... just that I've had bad results when going this route.

Which would make sense when you consider the source of the great great majority of power in the swing. The tail does not wag the dog.

[Mark H]

I take that as a "no".

Can't blame me for trying.

No problem .... like you you said, we understand our differences and are comfortalbe with each other's positions.

Had to go back to remind myself what I might have said no to. No that wasn't a no only because it's not my call. And yes, I think you and I can make enough room to help a kid together. We may disagree on some things but I'm comfortable with the hitter I believe you would produce though you might take a different path than me. We can discuss the correct interpretation of the cause of rotation or whip and the like later over adult beverages after the kid is squared away.

[Mark H]

This is also what I see. When working on this aspect (launch position) have your son look out at the pitcher,maybe winding up. .

Exactly.


.

[Mark H]

new2thesport,

Once we are happy with your son's new hand/barrel load, then we'll need to synchronize his upper and lower body. This is actually very important and we can share a drill that will help with that.

We'll want to build "stretch & fire" mechanics into your son's swing so that he readily generates an "X-stretch" and optains timely "hip/shoulder spatial separation".

Hmmmm ..... so, what the heck did I just say? My guess is it doesn't make a lot of sense to you right now. So let's translate that to say that we would like to build a sequence of movements into your son's swing that serves as the second largest source of force generation in the elite-level swing. In other words, it's important enough to go after if you are serious about becoming a competitive hitter. In the process we'll beef up your son's primary source of force generation.

I may need to outline a few drills for you. But first, tell me if you are familiar with terms such as the "negative move", the "load" (as in the loading of the rear leg), or the "gather"? I'm trying to get a handle on a starting point to move on. The "load" (the loading of the rear leg) is important and I'll need you to get a specific sequence down starting with the "load".

-FFS

This paragraph I'm writing is talk between us advice givers and not something you need to implement right now New2. FFS, just make sure we don't build in extra frames of "separation" into the swing. What I mean is, any rec program I watch has plenty of kids with gobs and bucketloads of "separation" in their swing and they still hit like doodly. The separation, or rather most of it, needs to happen like this: http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=10&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

IME, talking to a kid about more "separation" leads to slower transfer of momentum from one segment to another. If we come to a deal killer I can't live with, I'll say so with a smile and dad can decide. :)

[Stealth]

I'd say here that the question is what is cause and what is result, but I won't say that because I don't want to give Stealth a hint here yet to the answer to the question he keeps asking me.

YES or No Mark H

[Stealth]

FFS - I am not even talking so much about tipping but placing the hands/barrel similar to Utley. Get the barrel from behind his head - post the picture of Utley.

[FiveFrameSwing]

This paragraph I'm writing is talk between us advice givers and not something you need to implement right now New2. FFS, just make sure we don't build in extra frames of "separation" into the swing. What I mean is, any rec program I watch has plenty of kids with gobs and bucketloads of "separation" in their swing and they still hit like doodly. The separation, or rather most of it, needs to happen like this: http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=10&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

IME, talking to a kid about more "separation" leads to slower transfer of momentum from one segment to another.

It's possible that we may be more similar than I thought.

The X-stretch that we want embedded in the swing occurs during the "shift" that you have highlighted ..... and given the caption of the video you referenced, you probably suggest that this "shift" is fueled by the muscles in the upper leg & hip area ..... I'm okay with that .... as long as we both see the resultant pushes against the ground (as well as absence of spinning, etc).

One of the reasons to get the hand/barrel load reasonably well addressed initially was so that we properly positioned the hands within the Kinetic link. We also wanted the hands "loaded" so as to provide "timely resistance" to assist with the generation of the upcoming X-stretch during the "shift". When we begin working on this shift, we will describe a simplistic role of the upper body in terms of being sufficiently relaxed to allow for maximum force generation and proper momentum transfer.

[FiveFrameSwing]

FFS - I am not even talking so much about tipping but placing the hands/barrel similar to Utley. Get the barrel from behind his head - post the picture of Utley.

Utley:
http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Utley15.gif

[Stealth]

Utley:
http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Utley15.gif


FFS - Thanks. The still picture will help as well. Again, just having the hands in front and not letting the barrel get behind his head will make BIG improvements.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Stealth ..... I think I get what you mean now. You are talking about how he slots the barrel and wraps it to far past his head ..... right?

If so, I believe that's why MarkH recommended an adjustment in the amount of counter rotation. Specifically I'd like to see this kept to less than 12-degrees ..... and in his latest swing he grossly exceeded that.

If this is your point then let's first see what the kid looks like after modifying the amount of counter rotation.

[Stealth]

If this is your point then let's first see what the kid looks like after modifying the amount of counter rotation.


FFS - My point being: with the handset like Utley he will be less likely to counter rotate. It won't be a cure all. I am not sure why you are against doing this now because I know you agree with my thoughts. Why wait - it's not a hard thing to change. Especially with a kid and dad that are motivated!

[FiveFrameSwing]

FFS - My point being: with the handset like Utley he will be less likely to counter rotate. It won't be a cure all. I am not sure why you are against doing this now because I know you agree with my thoughts. Why wait - it's not a hard thing to change. Especially with a kid and dad that are motivated!

I don't have an issue with Utley's handset.

In the last clip the dad posted, the kid was "loading" (his rear leg) and "launching" at the same time. We still need to get the sequence correct and remove this excessive counter rotation .... much of which is caused by the incorrect sequence of moves.

new2thesport

Let's review the sequence. Stealth has us looking at Utley, so for no other reason let's use a video clip of Utley to help define the sequence that we're looking for.

Here's a complete video clip of Utley:
http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Utley15.gif

Load:
In the following clip notice that the front foot, circled in red, and observe how Utley lifts his front foot off the ground. As Utley lifts his front foot he "loads" the inside thigh of the rear leg .... see the green arrow.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Utley15_Load.gif

Notice that the hands are not yet in the "launch" position.

Launch:
Next we continue the clip from where we left off.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Utley15_Launch.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Utley15_Launch2.gif

Above you see Utley "reach forward with his front foot" while "reaching back towards the catcher with his hands/arms". Notice that Utley does both at the same time.

Shift & Throw:
Let's resume the clip from where we stopped above.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Utley15_ShiftAndThrow.gif

In the above clip Utley is shifting the "center of pressure" from his rear foot to his front foot. Notice that the shift causes the rear hip to turn. Some will view this as the front hip turning .... but the reality is that the back-half opens the front-half.

Notice that the rear heel is coming off the ground and the front heel is becoming planted ..... again, this action causes the hips to intiate rotation .... and notice that the rear elbow is dropping during this phase, so he is initiating his swing or throw .... and notice that the shoulders have not opened.

Hmmmm .... look at the last frame closely. The hips have initiated rotation .... BUT the shoulders have not opened .... actually, in Utley's case he had some counter rotation in place .... so what you see is a small incremental increase in 'separation'. If you had a camera above Utley then a line drawn along his shoulders, compared to a line drawn across his hips, would intersect and represent an ***X*** (as in X-factor or X-stretch). This is what we mean by "hip/shoulder spatial separation" .... and it is the generation of "hip/shoulder spatial separation" at this point in time, generated by the "shift", that we refer to as the "X-stretch".

So let's review ....

1: From the stance we want your son to "load" his back leg. We don't want your son to "load" his back leg while also "launching" his hands .... which is what he was doing in his last video clip.

2: We want this to flow into having your son "reach back with his hands" (i.e., "launch") while "reaching forward with his front leg". This is establishing the "stretch" in the "stretch & fire" mechanics. We want your son to time his mechanics such that he just completes getting to his "launch" position as his front toe contacts the ground ..... we refer to this as the "ready position". Your son may "feel" a slight "stretch" in his stomach muscles ..... this "stretch" is about to get "stretched" even more .... next.

3: "Shift & Throw". From the "ready position", especially if one arrives at the "ready position" with the "launch" and "front foot approaching foot strike" simultaneously, then the "shift" will create a well timed "X-stretch" or "hip/shoulder spatial separation.


The video clip from here:
We resume the swing from the point of the "X-stretch" in which "hip/shoulder spatial separation" was generated in a timely manner. In some cases this may appear as an incremental increase in separation. The first frame below is the "stretch" in the "stretch & fire" mechanics we speak of. From here we will initiate the "fire", and within a frame we will be commited to the swing.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Utley15_Block.gif

-FFS

[Coach C]

FFS, thanks for the break down, well done.

[omg]

I don't have an issue with Utley's handset.

In the last clip the dad posted, the kid was "loading" (his rear leg) and "launching" at the same time. We still need to get the sequence correct and remove this excessive counter rotation .... much of which is caused by the incorrect sequence of moves.

new2thesport

Let's review the sequence. Stealth has us looking at Utley, so for no other reason let's use a video clip of Utley to help define the sequence that we're looking for.

Here's a complete video clip of Utley:
http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Utley15.gif

Load:
In the following clip notice that the front foot, circled in red, and observe how Utley lifts his front foot off the ground. As Utley lifts his front foot he "loads" the inside thigh of the rear leg .... see the green arrow.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Utley15_Load.gif

Notice that while the hands are not yet in the "launch" position.

Launch:
Next we continue the clip from where we left off.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Utley15_Launch.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Utley15_Launch2.gif

Above you see Utley "reach forward with his front foot" while "reaching back towards the catcher with his hands/arms". Notice that Utley does both at the same time.

Shift & Throw:
Let's resume the clip from where we stopped above.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Utley15_ShiftAndThrow.gif

In the above clip Utley is shifting the "center of pressure" from his rear foot to his front foot. Notice that the shift causes the rear hip to turn. Some will view this as the front hip turning .... but the reality is that the back-half opens the front-half.

Notice that the rear heel is coming off the ground and the front heel is becoming planted ..... again, this action causes the hips to intiate rotation .... and notice that the rear elbow is dropping during this phase, so he is initiating his swing or throw .... and notice that the shoulders have not opened.

Hmmmm .... look at the last frame closely. The hips have initiated rotation .... BUT the shoulders have not opened .... actually, in Utley's case he had some counter rotation in place .... so what you see is a small incremental increase in 'separation'. If you had a camera above Utley then a line drawn along his shoulders, compared to a line drawn across his hips, would intersect and represent an ***X*** (as in X-factor or X-stretch). This is what we mean by "hip/shoulder spatial separation" .... and it is the generation of "hip/shoulder spatial separation" at this point in time, generated by the "shift", that we refer to as the "X-stretch".

So let's review ....

1: From the stance we want your son to "load" his back leg. We don't want your son to "load" his back leg while also "launching" his hands .... which is what he was doing in his last video clip.

2: We want this to flow into having your son "reach back with his hands" (i.e., "launch") while "reaching forward with his front leg". This is establishing the "stretch" in the "stretch & fire" mechanics. We want your son to time his mechanics such that he just completes getting to his "launch" position as he his front toe contacts the ground ..... we refer to this as the "ready position". Your son may "feel" a slight "stretch" in his stomach muscles ..... this "stretch" is about to get "stretched" even more .... next.

3: "Shift & Throw". From the "ready position", especially if one arrives at the "ready position" with the "launch" and "front foot approaching foot strike" simultaneously, then the "shift" will create a well timed "X-stretch" or "hip/shoulder spatial separation.


The video clip from here:
We resume the swing from the point of the "X-stretch" in which "hip/shoulder spatial separation" was generated in a timely manner. In some cases this may appear as an incremental increase in separation. The first frame below is the "stretch" in the "stretch & fire" mechanics we speak of. From here we will initiate the "fire", and within a frame we will be commited to the swing.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Utley15_Block.gif

-FFS

The above is an absolutely beautiful essay on hitting.

[Mark H]

It's possible that we may be more similar than I thought.

The X-stretch that we want embedded in the swing occurs during the "shift" that you have highlighted ..... and given the caption of the video you referenced, you probably suggest that this "shift" is fueled by the muscles in the upper leg & hip area ..... I'm okay with that .... as long as we both see the resultant pushes against the ground (as well as absence of spinning, etc).

We'll discuss Dixon's point of view on this someday. Just make sure New2 understands "push" doesn't involve knee extension and I'll live with "push" for the moment. :)

[Mark H]

Utley:
http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Utley15.gif

Nice. I count five frames but he took it pretty far out in front. Good clip.

[Mark H]

I don't have an issue with Utley's handset. Sure. I'm unaware of anyone who would. :)


Load:
In the following clip notice that the front foot, circled in red, and observe how Utley lifts his front foot off the ground. As Utley lifts his front foot he "loads" the inside thigh of the rear leg .... see the green arrow.


If I managed to pick out the right clip working the quote thing in reply, I'd like to see a little knee turn in/pelvic load/lead initially with the heel early in the stride thing going on here turning it into rotation into foot plant when he can.

Edited to say @#$%. Apparently my computer video skills are just as bad as I thought. Speaking of the first clip in the post.

[FiveFrameSwing]

We'll discuss Dixon's point of view on this someday. Just make sure New2 understands "push" doesn't involve knee extension and I'll live with "push" for the moment. :)

I think I'm going to enjoy those adult beverages.

I believe you are talking about the "shift" and the associated "push" between the back foot & ground. We haven't gotten into the details yet, but as an FYI, Chris Yeager teaches that the back leg absolutely must complete this "push" forward before the front leg blocks.

There is no pushing from the rear foot during the frontside block, nor will we encourage back foot hitting.

[Mark H]

I expect demonstrations would match. Are you aware of Dixon's characterizations of these movements? Do you understand how "push" could be misinterpreted about the second or third time these ideas are passed on? I'm sure you agree "push" doesn't cover what Soriano is doing in that clip with complex interactions of muscles all up and down the body but especially from the thighs up to the mid torso? I do like the term "shift" though.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I'm not familiar with Dixon's characterizations.

I have had a few students that overdid the "push" concept and needed additional attention. I suspect you are referring to drift/lunge-like issues. If this is what you mean then I think we can deal with this, but I respect the concern, and I acknowledge that some students do misinterpret the notion of fueling their swing with a "push" against the ground.

Students that stress a "stride" while maintaining near perfect head balance throughout their stride (think in terms of a near perfect neutral spine throughout the "positive move") will sometimes have an issue with their "final push" or "shift". IMO those that use a "reach" (i.e., 'reach' with their front leg), as opposed to a balanced stride, tend to not have as much of an issue in this area. Their belly-button will be somewhat closer to their back leg and their "shift" will return them to balance. Depending on if the student choses to "stride", "reach", or "no stride" .... I think we can deal with it.

As an FYI, in my notes that I've put together on Chris Yeager, I see that he has often used the term push/shift for this portion. In my opinion he uses the words "push" and "shift" interchangably for this portion of the swing .... which makes sense from my standpoint.

[Mark H]

Anyone still have Jim's son's contact info?

[FiveFrameSwing]

Anyone still have Jim's son's contact info?

Before Jim's passing he sent me the following Email (below). Jim discredited his prior work. After Jim's passed I received a follow-up Email from his son Sean who was still selling the book but stated that he was continuing on with plans to create DVDs with updated information.

--------

Please send 25.00 and we will mail the book. 45.00 for two. We no longer agree with the premise we wrote in good faith in the book in 1992 and hope our new videos to be released this summer will be more helpful in producing an Exceptional Athlete.

Jim



Jim Dixon
Baseball Consultant
The Dixon Discoveries
1031 Union Street
Shelbyville, Tn. 37160
931 684 3934

[new2thesport]

okay, we practiced 12 degrees and the stride. We had stormy weather today so we stayed inside. The back foot load, I count as (one), (two) is the stride and 12 degree stretch, and (three) swing. We will continue to work on these things tomorrow since it didnt go as smooth. (He had difficulty with this weight shift as his full weight transfered over his front foot .)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAmw-m1lnHo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v37G60PRYcM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7ys_TLBiuw

Okay, this is the first time I am using youtube. Hope it works.

[FiveFrameSwing]

For some reason I can't convert your files to GIF format.

I'm able to convert them to AVI and MWV, but can't import them into Ulead GIF Animator.

Let's kill the first video clip. Not good ..... too much counter rotation, among other things.

The other two video clips warrant more analysis.

Can we get someone to convert these to GIF?

[FiveFrameSwing]

new2thesport,

There are a few issues, one being the hand path (he's passing through the Power-V/Slotted-V/"hand_passing_by_the_rear_nipple"), but his hand path after that isn't right. Let's face it, this is a dry swing. IMO your son is making progress.

Before we make any further recommendations we'd like to see your son hitting a ball, preferably head-on soft-toss, but hitting off of a tee would be useful.

Not too many dad's like you willing to put in this effort .... reading our posts, translating the information to your son, video taping, etc.. I applaud your efforts.

-FFS

[Mark H]

Before Jim's passing he sent me the following Email (below). Jim discredited his prior work. After Jim's passed I received a follow-up Email from his son Sean who was still selling the book but stated that he was continuing on with plans to create DVDs with updated information.

--------

Please send 25.00 and we will mail the book. 45.00 for two. We no longer agree with the premise we wrote in good faith in the book in 1992 and hope our new videos to be released this summer will be more helpful in producing an Exceptional Athlete.

Jim



Jim Dixon
Baseball Consultant
The Dixon Discoveries
1031 Union Street
Shelbyville, Tn. 37160
931 684 3934

Jim's premise and training ideas don't interest me. But his characterization of the movement of elite athletes was illustrative for me. You can probably still read on setpro a whole page Paul put together in honor of Jim at his passing. I think it was public as I recall. Haven't been over there in awhile.

[Mark H]

new2thesport,
Not too many dad's like you willing to put in this effort .... reading our posts, translating the information to your son, video taping, etc.. I applaud your efforts.

-FFS

Indeed. And not just the efforts, but also the results. I look forward to the gifs.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Jim's premise and training ideas don't interest me. But his characterization of the movement of elite athletes was illustrative for me. You can probably still read on setpro a whole page Paul put together in honor of Jim at his passing. I think it was public as I recall. Haven't been over there in awhile.

Thank you for the clarification.

After reading Jim's Email I decided to wait for his updated material, and then of course he left us too early.

Sean's Email is "speeddixon@hotmail.com".

[omg]

okay, we practiced 12 degrees and the stride. We had stormy weather today so we stayed inside. The back foot load, I count as (one), (two) is the stride and 12 degree stretch, and (three) swing. We will continue to work on these things tomorrow since it didnt go as smooth. (He had difficulty with this weight shift as his full weight transfered over his front foot .)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAmw-m1lnHo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v37G60PRYcM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7ys_TLBiuw

Okay, this is the first time I am using youtube. Hope it works.

Ok, looks good now. STOP. Go out and take bp for a few days. Just let the boy hit w/o any talk. Let HIM fine tune any adjustments.

[hitnpeas]

okay, we practiced 12 degrees and the stride. We had stormy weather today so we stayed inside. The back foot load, I count as (one), (two) is the stride and 12 degree stretch, and (three) swing. We will continue to work on these things tomorrow since it didnt go as smooth. (He had difficulty with this weight shift as his full weight transfered over his front foot .)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAmw-m1lnHo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v37G60PRYcM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7ys_TLBiuw

Okay, this is the first time I am using youtube. Hope it works.

12 degree stretch....Can someone translate this for me? Also, what is your boy swinging? It looks like a bat with the Christmas wrapping still on it. :laugh

[FiveFrameSwing]

Ok, looks good now. STOP. Go out and take bp for a few days. Just let the boy hit w/o any talk. Let HIM fine tune any adjustments.

Good advice from Omg. Probably time to get some BP in and see where things are settling in at.

[FiveFrameSwing]

12 degree stretch....Can someone translate this for me? Also, what is your boy swinging? It looks like a bat with the Christmas wrapping still on it. :laugh

At one point the student was excessively counter rotating his upper body.

The credit for pointing this out goes to MarkH. It was a good catch, and it needed to be worked on in parallel with a correction to the student’s hand/barrel load.

IMO MarkH was correct … the time to obtain hip/shoulder spatial separation is not at launch … and we attempted to show the appropriate timing and how the “shift” should be responsible for creating the X-stretch and the timely generation of hip/shoulder spatial separation.

My target for not allowing more than 12-degrees of counter rotation, as one arrives in their launch position, is an attempt to quantify the amount of counter rotation that is acceptable. IMO it is unrealistic to demand no counter rotation, and at the same time excessive counter rotation can be harmful. The 12-degree target came from Mike Candrea (and Don Slaught). In a discussion with Sue Enquist a year ago she confirmed the 12-degree target.

If a more definitive study on this topic exists then I’d welcome that information.

[Mark H]

I'd ask everyone to keep in mind the counter rotation can appear to be much greater than 12 degrees due to the ability of the shoulder complex/scaps to slide around the ribcage/adduct and abduct. I'm assuming the 12 degree limit from Slaught refers to the upper torso itself.

[Ursa Major]

OMG said: Ok, looks good now. STOP. Go out and take bp for a few days. Just let the boy hit w/o any talk. Let HIM fine tune any adjustments.Two very good points:

He's improved so much, that he should enjoy both the sound of the ball blasting off his bat and the "gee, will you look at that" mutterings from other customers at the batting cages. (Even more fun is when the Dads there with an older kid come over and nudge their kid and say, "See, that's what you should be doing -- and you're four years older than him!")

Second, I think it's a good idea after the sort of substantial advancement that a kid makes to stop trying to continue his "development" for a short while, and let him get comfortable with what he's doing, and also let him try the fine-tuning OMG talks about. Sure, he'll try a lot of counterproductive things that you'll want to discourage after a time. But, for those good things he suprises you with that he'll develop, he will be much more invested in them because he developed them.

One final point -- for all the praise heaped on N2TS for his hard work in trying to help his youngster, let's give a round of applause to the kid too. It's not easy getting a series of new and different cues and mechanical tweaks and incorporating them into your swing the way he has without backsliding (at least in the clips I've seen) -- well, at least not much.

[new2thesport]

Thank you kindly everyone! We will practice for a few days as suggested!

[Mark H]

Two very good points:

He's improved so much, that he should enjoy both the sound of the ball blasting off his bat and the "gee, will you look at that" mutterings from other customers at the batting cages. (Even more fun is when the Dads there with an older kid come over and nudge their kid and say, "See, that's what you should be doing -- and you're four years older than him!")

Second, I think it's a good idea after the sort of substantial advancement that a kid makes to stop trying to continue his "development" for a short while, and let him get comfortable with what he's doing, and also let him try the fine-tuning OMG talks about. Sure, he'll try a lot of counterproductive things that you'll want to discourage after a time. But, for those good things he suprises you with that he'll develop, he will be much more invested in them because he developed them.

One final point -- for all the praise heaped on N2TS for his hard work in trying to help his youngster, let's give a round of applause to the kid too. It's not easy getting a series of new and different cues and mechanical tweaks and incorporating them into your swing the way he has without backsliding (at least in the clips I've seen) -- well, at least not much.

I agree with this post and OMG has a point. Relative to that point, it occurred to me this morning I should offer a little guidance. When he changes his goal from "a good swing" back to "contact" as you introduce the ball again, he is likely to revert to his old methods of solving the contact problem. I'd suggest he keep the goal of "a good swing" in mind and consciously NOT CARE if he makes contact with the ball as you begin to throw him easy front toss. Keep making good swings and let the mind begin to find the ball using the "good swing". Does that make sense?

[Ursa Major]

MarkH wrote: When he changes his goal from "a good swing" back to "contact" as you introduce the ball again, he is likely to revert to his old methods of solving the contact problem. I'd suggest he keep the goal of "a good swing" in mind and consciously NOT CARE if he makes contact with the ball as you begin to throw him easy front toss. Keep making good swings and let the mind begin to find the ball using the "good swing". Does that make sense?

Mark, it makes great sense. At the risk of sounding even more like an Englishbey acolyte, I stumbled across an essay that Steve wrote for Webball.com a couple of years back, addressing in part the question of "why are my good swings that I have in practice not showing up in games?" He delves into this very issue -- that kids sometimes do well in drills and BP because they're just worrying about the process, but in games they worry about the outcome. The essay can be found at: http://www.webball.com/cms/page3400.cfm

[Mark H]

Exactly. Great association.

[tadlock11]

Anyone still have Jim's son's contact info?

Last I have is Seans information: speeddixon@hotmail.com (this was at one time public information - if that's changed please edit this or let me know so that I can).

[callyjr]

I agree with this post and OMG has a point. Relative to that point, it occurred to me this morning I should offer a little guidance. When he changes his goal from "a good swing" back to "contact" as you introduce the ball again, he is likely to revert to his old methods of solving the contact problem. I'd suggest he keep the goal of "a good swing" in mind and consciously NOT CARE if he makes contact with the ball as you begin to throw him easy front toss. Keep making good swings and let the mind begin to find the ball using the "good swing". Does that make sense?

I agree with this. What I do is add the balls in and when the swing breaks down and it will you stop. Never allow the old swing more then 1 or 2 swings. go back to your dry swings which are always perfect and then add the balls back in again. eventually you will get where the good swings out number the bad. Keep building that good muscle memory!!

[Mark H]

And you slowly add to the stress level till you get all the way up to games always ready to move back to the last known level of competence.

[new2thesport]

We are still working on the swing. Although I think we made progress, he lost power as the ball seems to come off the bat dead. We are making contact and he isnt striking out. He's been getting bat sting at least 3-5 times a BP, which is alot since he rarely got stung. In fact, I customized his 2008 demarini vexxum with a "buzz off" grip from Rawlings and he never felt anything with that bat before. I was surprised when he dropped it out of his hands. His Miken bat stung him also.
He seems to not be able to hit the ball right of the pitcher(between 2nd and 3rd base) and 1-3 balls may go that way but are dinkers . He used to drive the ground balls that way before and rechocet it off the fence with authority.
My wife is surprised and puzzled on the lack of power but I told her that we were working on the bat dropping and stride.
I even set up a station at work today where he cant drop the bat backwards and we are doing great with that(not dropping backwards). He then has to hit through a medicine ball and knock it off a round pedestal. (We are indoors and the 7lb medicine ball wont fly all around the room).
I found something that I can relate to. He talks about baseball and was wondering if this is what you guys refer to as "staying connected". He talks about wrists, then wrist/shoulder, then whole body. If it is similar, should I implement it in my sons swing. Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH309YwzxsY

[FiveFrameSwing]

We are still working on the swing. Although I think we made progress, he lost power as the ball seems to come off the bat dead. We are making contact and he isnt striking out. He's been getting bat sting at least 3-5 times a BP, which is alot since he rarely got stung. In fact, I customized his 2008 demarini vexxum with a "buzz off" grip from Rawlings and he never felt anything with that bat before. I was surprised when he dropped it out of his hands. His Miken bat stung him also.
He seems to not be able to hit the ball right of the pitcher(between 2nd and 3rd base) and 1-3 balls may go that way but are dinkers . He used to drive the ground balls that way before and rechocet it off the fence with authority.
My wife is surprised and puzzled on the lack of power but I told her that we were working on the bat dropping and stride.
I even set up a station at work today where he cant drop the bat backwards and we are doing great with that(not dropping backwards). He then has to hit through a medicine ball and knock it off a round pedestal. (We are indoors and the 7lb medicine ball wont fly all around the room).
I found something that I can relate to. He talks about baseball and was wondering if this is what you guys refer to as "staying connected". He talks about wrists, then wrist/shoulder, then whole body. If it is similar, should I implement it in my sons swing. Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH309YwzxsY

This is not what I mean by having a "connected" swing as it pertains to the MLB baseball swing.

You wrote .... "I even set up a station at work today where he cant drop the bat backwards and we are doing great with that(not dropping backwards). He then has to hit through a medicine ball and knock it off a round pedestal. (We are indoors and the 7lb medicine ball wont fly all around the room)."

I don't like this drill at all, and IMO it is harmful to his development. One of the first things I did when I became the hitting instructor at our high school was to get rid of drills like this. IMO this type of drill promotes back foot hitting and is not in the direction I'd recommend taking him in.

I'll need to see a video, or a better description of what you are doing with the drill to prevent the barrel from dropping back. I asked that your son perform "take drills" and hit through the "power-V" (slotted-V) position. We did not recommend that you inhibit the reward arc in his swing .... which could actually degrade his swing.

Regarding the "bat sting" .... IMO that is positive feedback that he's not making proper bat/ball contact. Should he learn to make square contact with the sweet part of the bat then there will be no sting. I disagree with the notion of doing anything special to the bat handle to dampen the sting and instead I would rather see your son avoid the sting by swinging correctly.

It would help to see a video clip of your son hitting head-on soft-toss or hitting off the tee. Let's figure out why he's not driving the ball.

[new2thesport]

This is not what I mean by having a "connected" swing as it pertains to the MLB baseball swing.

You wrote .... "I even set up a station at work today where he cant drop the bat backwards and we are doing great with that(not dropping backwards). He then has to hit through a medicine ball and knock it off a round pedestal. (We are indoors and the 7lb medicine ball wont fly all around the room)."

I don't like this drill at all, and IMO it is harmful to his development. One of the first things I did when I became the hitting instructor at our high school was to get rid of drills like this. IMO this type of drill promotes back foot hitting and is not in the direction I'd recommend taking him in.

Regarding the "bat sting" .... IMO that is positive feedback that he's not making proper bat/ball contact. Should he learn to make square contact with the sweet part of the bat then their will be no sting. I disagree with notion of doing anything special to the bat handle to dampen the sting and instead I would rather see your son avoid the sting by swinging correctly.

It would help to see a video clip of your son hitting head-on soft-toss or hitting off the tee. Let's figure out why he's not driving the ball.

Okay, will stop the drill(We only did it today). I will take video tomorrow.

[Ursa Major]

My wife is surprised and puzzled on the lack of power but I told her that we were working on the bat dropping and stride.New2, a couple of thoughts... First, understand that the kid is now feeling his way through some new mechanics, and in the short term will not have the same uncontrolled, unregulated whip that he's been able to exert with his old, less-structured swing. Second, and in a similar vein, your wife sounds like a lot of dads I know -- my gosh, why doesn't this new drill/cue/mechanic work right away. Don't get too caught up in the short term. He's not going to be making the majors until 2024 -- give him some time! :D

As to the medicine ball drill -- 7 lbs. is too heavy for most hitters and certainly for a youngster. I've used deflated basketballs in the past. But, I literally use them only for about five minutes to show a hitter what the impact of a certain hitting flaw might be, and generally for only one of two flaws:

1. For "dead hands" where the hitter has no wrist action and pushes everything to right field, and
2. Lack of connection coupled with a premature "power V" (i.e., the opposite of the "power-L"). This helps hitters -- particularly younger ones -- understand that without the 'bracing' effect of a Power-L, the ball will actually knock the bat backwards at contact. They can actually feel a little strain in their elbow hitting the basketball with an unbraced swing.

Of course, what this also means is that too much hitting of too heavy a weighted ball puts too much pressure on that elbow. Maybe not so good an idea, eh?

[Baseball gLove]

I don't like the medicine ball drill either. I also have a 9 year old. I had started with him early like 2004 with using his body to start the swing and adding a new skill each year. This year I am adding the bent front elbow. Here is a GIF from last year when he was 8 years old.

[FiveFrameSwing]

As to the medicine ball drill -- 7 lbs. is too heavy for most hitters and certainly for a youngster. I've used deflated basketballs in the past. But, I literally use them only for about five minutes to show a hitter what the impact of a certain hitting flaw might be, and generally for only one of two flaws:

1. For "dead hands" where the hitter has no wrist action and pushes everything to right field, and

Ursa .... I'm not following you here.

Personally I think the drill of using deflated basketballs is terrible. IMO the objective is not to muscle through the ball, but to hit the ball with a fast bat barrel.

As for your comment about the wrists .... are you suggesting a snap of the wrists? Do you have a video of this so that I can see what you are looking for here? If you could provide a video of a pro and highlight the area that you believe they are snapping their wrists then that would be appreciated.

[mudvnine]

He seems to not be able to hit the ball right of the pitcher(between 2nd and 3rd base) and 1-3 balls may go that way but are dinkers . He used to drive the ground balls that way before and rechocet it off the fence with authority.
My wife is surprised and puzzled on the lack of power but I told her that we were working on the bat dropping and stride.

New2, one of your problems is that you are trying to get hitting lessons from 3 or 4 different instructors, all with similar but varying thoughts and training methods. Kind of like trying to make chicken soup with a chicken soup recipe from one chef, a split pea soup recipe from another chef, a tomato soup recipe from another, and finally a clam chowder recipe from a clueless chef. Sure you'll get soup, but it won't taste anything like what you were hoping for.

For example, here are two guys talking about the "power-V", but they are talking about it in two different times and location in the swing:

I asked that your son perform "take drills" and hit through the "power-V" (slotted-V) position. Lack of connection coupled with a premature "power V" (i.e., the opposite of the "power-L").

Unless you understand the context, terminology, and hitting philosophies these two instructors use, you can actually set your son's progress backwards by confusing and frustrating him to the point of taking the fun out of hitting.

New2, a couple of thoughts... First, understand that the kid is now feeling his way through some new mechanics, and in the short term will not have the same uncontrolled, unregulated whip that he's been able to exert with his old, less-structured swing. Second, and in a similar vein, your wife sounds like a lot of dads I know -- my gosh, why doesn't this new drill/cue/mechanic work right away. Don't get too caught up in the short term. I don't subscribe to that . . . if he is doing things right and learning the techniques correctly, he will see and feel improvement, if not find a new instructor.

Your son would be well served if you chose a particular instructor and style of hitting and stuck with that until you got what you were looking for or you realized that the guy didn't have a clue on what he was talking about. Unfortunately, this is the chance you take when trying to get instruction from unknown Internet instructors; chose correctly or you end up with . . .

http://convocationepiscopaliansnigeria.files.wordpress.co m/2007/05/no_soup_for_you.png


Good luck,
Mud

[Mark H]

I don't like this drill at all, and IMO it is harmful to his development. One of the first things I did when I became the hitting instructor at our high school was to get rid of drills like this. IMO this type of drill promotes back foot hitting and is not in the direction I'd recommend taking him in..

I don't care for this drill either. Promotes disconnection followed by a push.



Regarding the "bat sting" .... IMO that is positive feedback that he's not making proper bat/ball contact. Should he learn to make square contact with the sweet part of the bat then there will be no sting. I disagree with the notion of doing anything special to the bat handle to dampen the sting and instead I would rather see your son avoid the sting by swinging correctly..

True. One way I see this happen is with the hitter doing a late push disconnect causing the whip to be poorly timed and late.

It would help to see a video clip of your son hitting head-on soft-toss or hitting off the tee. Let's figure out why he's not driving the ball.

Yes.

[Mark H]

New2, a couple of thoughts... First, understand that the kid is now feeling his way through some new mechanics, and in the short term will not have the same uncontrolled, unregulated whip that he's been able to exert with his old, less-structured swing. Second, and in a similar vein, your wife sounds like a lot of dads I know -- my gosh, why doesn't this new drill/cue/mechanic work right away. Don't get too caught up in the short term.

Exactly. You are changing his movement patterns radically. It will take awhile before he can coordinate this new movement pattern as well as he did the other movement pattern. Thing is, the other movement pattern wouldn't continue to work as he faced better pitching in the future.

[hitnpeas]

New2, one of your problems is that you are trying to get hitting lessons from 3 or 4 different instructors, all with similar but varying thoughts and training methods. Kind of like trying to make chicken soup with a chicken soup recipe from one chef, a split pea soup recipe from another chef, a tomato soup recipe from another, and finally a clam chowder recipe from a clueless chef. Sure you'll get soup, but it won't taste anything like what you were hoping for.

For example, here are two guys talking about the "power-V", but they are talking about it in two different times and location in the swing:



Unless you understand the context, terminology, and hitting philosophies these two instructors use, you can actually set your son's progress backwards by confusing and frustrating him to the point of taking the fun out of hitting.

I don't subscribe to that . . . if he is doing things right and learning the techniques correctly, he will see and feel improvement, if not find a new instructor.

Your son would be well served if you chose a particular instructor and style of hitting and stuck with that until you got what you were looking for or you realized that the guy didn't have a clue on what he was talking about. Unfortunately, this is the chance you take when trying to get instruction from unknown Internet instructors; chose correctly or you end up with . . .

http://convocationepiscopaliansnigeria.files.wordpress.co m/2007/05/no_soup_for_you.png


Good luck,
Mud


From this point forward, you shall be known as the soup nazi!! :D Very good advice Mud!! :nod:

[Mark H]

New2, one of your problems is that you are trying to get hitting lessons from 3 or 4 different instructors, all with similar but varying thoughts and training methods. Kind of like trying to make chicken soup with a chicken soup recipe from one chef, a split pea soup recipe from another chef, a tomato soup recipe from another, and finally a clam chowder recipe from a clueless chef. Sure you'll get soup, but it won't taste anything like what you were hoping for.

Good luck,
Mud

This is a concern and sure, my first preference would be he go straight with Englishbey. Second preference probably Yeager but here we are and everyone always wants people to help hitters here rather than refer them to a particular instructor. In my view, I think we are all melding as well as can be expected. I'm purposely letting FFS lead to avoid the problems you rightly are concerned about. If he proposes something I can't live with, I'll speak up.

[FiveFrameSwing]

This is a concern and sure, my first preference would be he go straight with Englishbey. Second preference probably Yeager but here we are and everyone always wants people to help hitters here rather than refer them to a particular instructor. In my view, I think we are all melding as well as can be expected. I'm purposely letting FFS lead to avoid the problems you rightly are concerned about. If he proposes something I can't live with, I'll speak up.

Based on some of the dad's comments I'm concerned that he's randomly picking up information and applying it poorly. Go back to the reason for turning the top hand skyward early ..... he blamed that on Mankin ..... and while that was what Mankin was doing in that particular drill, that was not a concept to be extracted from that drill.

Now he has his son hitting 7-lb medicine balls off of a tee. I'm sorry .... but that's not very smart.

The comment about avoiding the bat barrel going backwards has me wondering if he knows what the barrel path is supposed to look like and if he's destroying the natural arc.

IMO this parent needs a LOCAL hitting instructor.

Sure, the dad is doing a lot of work .... but I'm concerned it isn't all "smart" work. IMO the key to success is the combination of "hard" work performed "smartly". I don't care how hard you work, if you work "stupidly" then the competition is going to clean your clock.

IMO the dad needs to hook up with a good local hitting instructor and hand over the keys to instruction to this coach. The dad should follow along, support the local hitting instructor, and learn how to apply the Hanson Priniciple.

[jvan]

Just read your post 163. This is exactly why I wouldn't want to post another video for the whole group to review and suggest changes to. It was pretty good until MarkH kept butting in. Shame, thought it would turn out well, maybe you could pm him.

[Mark H]

Based on some of the dad's comments I'm concerned that he's randomly picking up information and applying it poorly. Go back to the reason for turning the top hand skyward early ..... he blamed that on Mankin ..... and while that was what Mankin was doing in that particular drill, that was not a concept to be extracted from that drill.

Now he has his son hitting 7-lb medicine balls off of a tee. I'm sorry .... but that's not very smart.

The comment about avoiding the bat barrel going backwards has me wondering if he knows what the barrel path is supposed to look like and if he's destroying the natural arc.

IMO this parent needs a LOCAL hitting instructor.

Sure, the dad is doing a lot of work .... but I'm concerned it isn't all "smart" work. IMO the key to success is the combination of "hard" work performed "smartly". I don't care how hard you work, if you work "stupidly" then the competition is going to clean your clock.

IMO the dad needs to hook up with a good local hitting instructor and hand over the keys to instruction to this coach. The dad should follow along, support the local hitting instructor, and learn how to apply the Hanson Priniciple.

I think this guy has an excellent chance as the primary instructor supported by a community. Would he be better off going straight to Englishbey or perhaps Yeager for this? Sure, but I get occassionally excoriated for such recommendations. Would a good local instructor be a good idea? Yeah, if he can find a good one and if he can sort that out.

[Mark H]

Just read your post 163. This is exactly why I wouldn't want to post another video for the whole group to review and suggest changes to. It was pretty good until MarkH kept butting in. Shame, thought it would turn out well, maybe you could pm him.

Well I've been very careful to defer to FFS on this one as I thought he was doing a good job and I'm aiming for good team work even though I responded to the original poster before FFS. Thanks for noticing. ;)

[new2thesport]

Based on some of the dad's comments I'm concerned that he's randomly picking up information and applying it poorly. Go back to the reason for turning the top hand skyward early ..... he blamed that on Mankin ..... and while that was what Mankin was doing in that particular drill, that was not a concept to be extracted from that drill.

Now he has his son hitting 7-lb medicine balls off of a tee. I'm sorry .... but that's not very smart.

The comment about avoiding the bat barrel going backwards has me wondering if he knows what the barrel path is supposed to look like and if he's destroying the natural arc.

IMO this parent needs a LOCAL hitting instructor.

Sure, the dad is doing a lot of work .... but I'm concerned it isn't all "smart" work. IMO the key to success is the combination of "hard" work performed "smartly". I don't care how hard you work, if you work "stupidly" then the competition is going to clean your clock.

IMO the dad needs to hook up with a good local hitting instructor and hand over the keys to instruction to this coach. The dad should follow along, support the local hitting instructor, and learn how to apply the Hanson Priniciple.

I think I need to clarify things.


Jack Mankin's video "Final Arc 2" clip was instrumental to me on figuring out what position the hands and arms should be at impact and how it should look like. That is what I picked up from the clip.

The reason why I had him hitting a medicine ball is because it was portable and it wont fly around my coffee packaging room. I put the medicine ball on the cover of a 200lb coffee cylinder container so he can take swings at it like a heavy bag. The ball would just fall off the container which stands 3-4feet tall.
Now, if my son could use a baseball bat at 9 years old, at his height (52 inches) and weight (55lbs), and send that medicine ball flying off the pedestal, I would have him drug tested for steroids. Not even I can send that ball flying using his bat and I weigh 205lbs. So, I basically just used it as a portable striking bag and his bat was 27 inches and 14 oz.

I started this thread to thank all the posters, who I have read here, that I tried to implement their techniques into my son's swing to help him hit better. I posted the video to show the results of our progress. Several posters including yourself and MarkH saw problems and started to offer their Mana'o (wisdom). As I give respect to all, I tried to follow the instructions that were given to me. Not even a week ago, you and others said that we came along way and for him to take BP for a few days and have him concentrate on the swing and not the results.
I set up a hitting station at work for one day and now your concerned that all the hard work we have done is not "smart" work?
I must admit, after reading your post, I am disheartened that I have probably hurt my son for trying to help him hit better. I will also admit that being a person who never played the game, I came on the forum and was just mystified that so many here have great knowledge of this game that my son plays. I read religously every night and tried to understand what everyone was saying whether it be Englishbey, Yeager, Epstein, Mankin, Nyman and O'Leary. To me, all were great.

As for a local hitting instructor, the closest that was recommended to me would be in Northern California. You see , I live in Hawaii and on my island, there is none in the phone book. I figured that by going on the internet and trying to learn about the swing and the game, I would be able to help my son. We have books, we have videos but we can interpret the information wrong and do it wrong. Some stuff, I just dont understand and I cant ask the video or book if it could explain it better.

Thanks FiveFrameSwing for trying to help me, and most importantly, help my son. It truly was appreciated. Sorry I wasnt smart enough to understand, but from heart, I really tried.

[Mark H]

Used like a heavy bag I see no problem with a heavy medicine ball. Just don't try to push it after contact. Personally I think you have shown remarkable aptitude and ingenuity. By the way, if you get to Northern CA at all I have a couple of GREAT recommendations.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I think this guy has an excellent chance as the primary instructor supported by a community. Would he be better off going straight to Englishbey or perhaps Yeager for this? Sure, but I get occassionally excoriated for such recommendations. Would a good local instructor be a good idea? Yeah, if he can find a good one and if he can sort that out.

The dad is all over the map. His short stint with Mankin, and his "interpretation" of what was important, suggests that he's in a hurry and not taking the time to truly understand the material.

I don't believe the dad remotely understood what his kid achieved in the course of just 2-days. He also may not have appreciated that there was more work to do, and that I was recommending a program that would have strengthed his son's swing mechanics from the ground-up. I would have liked to have seen what we could have done with this kid in 2-4wks.

At some point you have to map out a program and give it a whirl. Hopefully the dad finds something effective and takes the time to understand it.

I wish the kid good luck. I think he's very capable.

Mark .... I appreciated the dialog and follow-up PMs.

[Baseball gLove]

I think I need to clarify things.

Now, if my son could use a baseball bat at 9 years old, at his height (52 inches) and weight (55lbs), and send that medicine ball flying off the pedestal, I would have him drug tested for steroids. Not even I can send that ball flying using his bat and I weigh 205lbs. So, I basically just used it as a portable striking bag and his bat was 27 inches and 14 oz.


The smallest kid on my son's 8U team used a 27-16 and he was very small. Most of the kids used a 17-18 ounce bat while my son used a 29-19.5 he's had for 2 years. He is moving to a 30-20 or 30-20.5 for this spring. He wants to use a 31-22.5 fat barrel, but I don't think he can control that bat.

Hawaii has done very well in Little League and PONY tournament play. There must be some decent instructors around. Find out who the top high schools are and find out who their players might go to. You should also check with the colleges near you. They might have camps during the winter for fund raising.

[alpo]

As a dad in a similiar situation, new2thesport, I think you're doing a great job. Your son is 9. He catches on quick and wants to learn... as do you. I'm no expert on these matters, and I think timing wise you may have been caught up in a hitting school scuffle here on BBF - but I don't think you will be doing any "permanent" damage by having your son hit a heavy ball.. your son is 9.

keep him/yourself swinging and learning and I have a hunch that by the time things really matter the two of you will be a-ok.

just my humble opinion.

[omg]

Based on the videos I've seen, most kids would not be able to what this kid can do: almost chameleon-like change based on dad's words and the various adjustments he has made are done quickly. So I think he may be talented.

I think dad should focus on proper TRAINING rather than all of the analytical stuff. It is fun to talk of Epstein,Mankin,etc.. but TRAINING is at the heart of hitting. Maybe this kid can just quietly watch videos of some great, fundamentally sound hitters and imitate them.

Since dad is not experienced in baseball, who knows whether the kid gets quality bp, quality short toss,etc. I've heard dads applaud lazy, long flyballs to left and yell at a kid for hitting an opposite field line drive.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I think dad should focus on proper TRAINING rather than all of the analytical stuff. It is fun to talk of Epstein,Mankin,etc.. but TRAINING is at the heart of hitting.


Agreed ... I know I did my Yeager-drills today.



I've heard dads applaud lazy, long flyballs to left and yell at a kid for hitting an opposite field line drive.

That's funny .... because it's true. Thanks for the humor.

[hitnpeas]

I think I need to clarify things.


Jack Mankin's video "Final Arc 2" clip was instrumental to me on figuring out what position the hands and arms should be at impact and how it should look like. That is what I picked up from the clip.

The reason why I had him hitting a medicine ball is because it was portable and it wont fly around my coffee packaging room. I put the medicine ball on the cover of a 200lb coffee cylinder container so he can take swings at it like a heavy bag. The ball would just fall off the container which stands 3-4feet tall.
Now, if my son could use a baseball bat at 9 years old, at his height (52 inches) and weight (55lbs), and send that medicine ball flying off the pedestal, I would have him drug tested for steroids. Not even I can send that ball flying using his bat and I weigh 205lbs. So, I basically just used it as a portable striking bag and his bat was 27 inches and 14 oz.

I started this thread to thank all the posters, who I have read here, that I tried to implement their techniques into my son's swing to help him hit better. I posted the video to show the results of our progress. Several posters including yourself and MarkH saw problems and started to offer their Mana'o (wisdom). As I give respect to all, I tried to follow the instructions that were given to me. Not even a week ago, you and others said that we came along way and for him to take BP for a few days and have him concentrate on the swing and not the results.
I set up a hitting station at work for one day and now your concerned that all the hard work we have done is not "smart" work?
I must admit, after reading your post, I am disheartened that I have probably hurt my son for trying to help him hit better. I will also admit that being a person who never played the game, I came on the forum and was just mystified that so many here have great knowledge of this game that my son plays. I read religously every night and tried to understand what everyone was saying whether it be Englishbey, Yeager, Epstein, Mankin, Nyman and O'Leary. To me, all were great.

As for a local hitting instructor, the closest that was recommended to me would be in Northern California. You see , I live in Hawaii and on my island, there is none in the phone book. I figured that by going on the internet and trying to learn about the swing and the game, I would be able to help my son. We have books, we have videos but we can interpret the information wrong and do it wrong. Some stuff, I just dont understand and I cant ask the video or book if it could explain it better.

Thanks FiveFrameSwing for trying to help me, and most importantly, help my son. It truly was appreciated. Sorry I wasnt smart enough to understand, but from heart, I really tried.


Call this school, ask for the baseball coach and see who he recommends.... Good luck and let us know how it goes!!

Punahou School
1601 Punahou Street
Honolulu, Hawaii 96822

Phone: 808.944.5711

[Mark H]

I wish the kid good luck. I think he's very capable.

Ditto and I agree.

Mark .... I appreciated the dialog and follow-up PMs.

It was a pleasure.

[Mark H]

Based on the videos I've seen, most kids would not be able to what this kid can do: almost chameleon-like change based on dad's words and the various adjustments he has made are done quickly. So I think he may be talented.
.

Indeed. I'm impressed with them both.

[Mark H]

Call this school, ask for the baseball coach and see who he recommends.... Good luck and let us know how it goes!!

Punahou School
1601 Punahou Street
Honolulu, Hawaii 96822

Phone: 808.944.5711

Sure. And check everything the instructor says against slow motion video of the best in the world. Very practical.

[HYP]

I think I need to clarify things.


Jack Mankin's video "Final Arc 2" clip was instrumental to me on figuring out what position the hands and arms should be at impact and how it should look like. That is what I picked up from the clip.

The reason why I had him hitting a medicine ball is because it was portable and it wont fly around my coffee packaging room. I put the medicine ball on the cover of a 200lb coffee cylinder container so he can take swings at it like a heavy bag. The ball would just fall off the container which stands 3-4feet tall.
Now, if my son could use a baseball bat at 9 years old, at his height (52 inches) and weight (55lbs), and send that medicine ball flying off the pedestal, I would have him drug tested for steroids. Not even I can send that ball flying using his bat and I weigh 205lbs. So, I basically just used it as a portable striking bag and his bat was 27 inches and 14 oz.

I started this thread to thank all the posters, who I have read here, that I tried to implement their techniques into my son's swing to help him hit better. I posted the video to show the results of our progress. Several posters including yourself and MarkH saw problems and started to offer their Mana'o (wisdom). As I give respect to all, I tried to follow the instructions that were given to me. Not even a week ago, you and others said that we came along way and for him to take BP for a few days and have him concentrate on the swing and not the results.
I set up a hitting station at work for one day and now your concerned that all the hard work we have done is not "smart" work?
I must admit, after reading your post, I am disheartened that I have probably hurt my son for trying to help him hit better. I will also admit that being a person who never played the game, I came on the forum and was just mystified that so many here have great knowledge of this game that my son plays. I read religously every night and tried to understand what everyone was saying whether it be Englishbey, Yeager, Epstein, Mankin, Nyman and O'Leary. To me, all were great.

As for a local hitting instructor, the closest that was recommended to me would be in Northern California. You see , I live in Hawaii and on my island, there is none in the phone book. I figured that by going on the internet and trying to learn about the swing and the game, I would be able to help my son. We have books, we have videos but we can interpret the information wrong and do it wrong. Some stuff, I just dont understand and I cant ask the video or book if it could explain it better.

Thanks FiveFrameSwing for trying to help me, and most importantly, help my son. It truly was appreciated. Sorry I wasnt smart enough to understand, but from heart, I really tried.

Contact Mike Epstein, I beleive that they have done some camps in Hawaii and most likely can recommend an instructor.

[Ursa Major]

FiveFrameSwing said: Personally I think the drill of using deflated basketballs is terrible. IMO the objective is not to muscle through the ball, but to hit the ball with a fast bat barrel.
I agree with your point as to the objective. Please note that I was suggesting using that drill for only five minutes and only to give feedback to the youngster about the dangers of an unbraced, bat-drag swing. For pencil armed youngsters, all the bat speed in the world won't do you any good if the bat is knocked backwards on contact because it has not been braced. The deflated basketball drill is only a technique reinforcement-feedback device, not a drill designed to change swings.

As for your comment about the wrists .... are you suggesting a snap of the wrists? Do you have a video of this so that I can see what you are looking for here? If you could provide a video of a pro and highlight the area that you believe they are snapping their wrists then that would be appreciated.Well, there's a vast difference between the enhancement to a high level swing brought about by wrist snap, and the detriment to a tiny youngster's swing caused by no wrist snap at all. (Admittedly, in a perfect rotational swing the release of the hands would provide about as much effective "snap" as you'd likely need, but how many 9 year olds have perfect swings?)

But, even if we do want to look to major leaguers' swings for guidance, there's ample support for the value of wrist snap there. It's hard to detect from a video of a hitter, because you can't necessarily detect from a video to what extent that barrel whip is caused by physics and to what extent it is caused by a volitional snap of the wrists. I am persuaded somewhat by something that HiddenGem wrote a long time ago that I felt was so important that I kept it in my double-secret hitting file:
"I have played with the best in the world, and have had the priviledge of working with some great Major League hitters and coaches. (Gary Gaietti, Jeff Bagwell, Ken Caminiti, Lance Berkman, Mickey Hatcher, Vladimir Guerrero ect. ect.)

To a man, every single one of these players spent a large amount of time on Hand/Forearm strength, and believe(d) that your hands and wrist strength play a large part in your ability to control and get the bat through the zone.

There is a concept in pro ball, maybe you have heard the term, maybe not. Its called "Releasing the Bat head Through the ball", and this is done with your hands. The more power you have in your hands the greater force you will deliver through the ball."
* * * * * * * * *
As to the youngster's sudden apparent drop off in his power output, I said, "First, understand that the kid is now feeling his way through some new mechanics, and in the short term will not have the same uncontrolled, unregulated whip that he's been able to exert with his old, less-structured swing. Second, and in a similar vein, your wife sounds like a lot of dads I know -- my gosh, why doesn't this new drill/cue/mechanic work right away. Don't get too caught up in the short term." MudV9 replied, "I don't subscribe to that . . . if he is doing things right and learning the techniques correctly, he will see and feel improvement, if not find a new instructor."

MudV, we're talking about reports by the kid's parents within a day or two after instituting several swing changes. In that very short time frame, it's reasonable that this kid -- who's trying so hard to institute all of his dad's suggestions -- will be tentative in the actual "intent to swing" component of his swing. And that's fine -- let him get the mechanics ingrained in his muscle memory, and then he can work on speeding up the swing. The parents weren't saying they didn't "see and feel improvement" -- they just said that the ball wasn't going as far.

With all this said, I think there may well be some validity to the concern that New2 is trying to incorporate too many different swing ideas into one kid's swings, where those ideas may not necessarily be consitent with one another. I say "may", because it's equally possible that New2 is just trying to be diplomatic and thanking everyone with helping to improve his son's swing, when in fact he's filtered out a lot of it. Indeed, there is some value if you're a newbie to sticking to one person/guru's program, as you're less likely to confront mutually inconsistent improvement regimens.

But this does get to three major instructional issues that bear repeating:

1. Obviously, the dad has to be the gatekeeper in deciding what will be helpful to the kid both in the merits of the drill/cue/mechanic in question, and in determining what and how much the kid will be able to actually make use of all of the information now in his dad's head;
2. Dad has to set priorities -- every kid has multiple flaws, and you need to decide which must be addressed most crucially and imminently -- some of the posted ideas may have to wait for anywhere from two weeks to many months before the kid can absorb them; and
3. Dad has to constantly monitor the drills and ideas and move them in and out of the regimen as the need for them decreases or re-emerges. Particularly with a kid like this who is motivated to and adept at incorporating suggestions, you don't want him doing the same drill set over and over -- once he gets some mechancial feature "down", you can stiop drilling that point (except for intermittent refresher drills) and move onto others that will help cure some other flaw.

In any case, I think there's a new factor that has entered into our collective deliberations that must be considered. Some have suggested that a more efficient way to both analyze his swing and reconcile competing theories is to have someone look at the youngster's swing in person and guide him from there. Think about it -- it is now January, and New2 lives in Hawaii. I move that we convene the first BBF Hitting Fundamentals forum in New2's backyard (BYOSB -- "bring your own sleeping bag"), and continue to harangu... er, ... instruct the little guy so long as the temperature remains above 75 degrees. Do I hear a second?

[FiveFrameSwing]

I agree with your point as to the objective. Please note that I was suggesting using that drill for only five minutes and only to give feedback to the youngster about the dangers of an unbraced, bat-drag swing. For pencil armed youngsters, all the bat speed in the world won't do you any good if the bat is knocked backwards on contact because it has not been braced. The deflated basketball drill is only a technique reinforcement-feedback device, not a drill designed to change swings.


I still believe this is a terrible drill.

Consider that the bat will be in contact with the ball for roughly 1/2000 of a second. That is not sufficient time for an impulse to be sent down the arm, down the torso, down the leg, push against the ground, and return back up the body and have the arms push the bat barrel into the ball. The ball will be long gone before that round trip impulse can take place.

In hitting, think hitting the ball with a fast bat .... not muscling through the ball.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Well, there's a vast difference between the enhancement to a high level swing brought about by wrist snap, and the detriment to a tiny youngster's swing caused by no wrist snap at all. (Admittedly, in a perfect rotational swing the release of the hands would provide about as much effective "snap" as you'd likely need, but how many 9 year olds have perfect swings?)


I'm going to need video confirmation of this.

Review the video in the link below and let me know what you think.

Don't Use The Hands (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHkkEWZEDdg&NR=1)

[new2thesport]

Originally Posted by hitnpeas
Call this school, ask for the baseball coach and see who he recommends.... Good luck and let us know how it goes!!

Punahou School
1601 Punahou Street
Honolulu, Hawaii 96822

Phone: 808.944.5711

Thank you hitnpeas. However, I live on the Big Island of Hawaii. Punahou School is on Oahu and I am sure there is a plethora of baseball instructors on that island. I believe that the world champions of little league is from that Island.

Originally Posted by HYP
Contact Mike Epstein, I beleive that they have done some camps in Hawaii and most likely can recommend an instructor.

Thank you HYP. There was only one Mike Epstein Instructor named Dean Sato, whos reside on the island of Oahu. I found out about him from my ISP providers website. They have coaches who write articles on health and other things. One of the articles featured him. I posted the article here in Baseball Fever called "Does this hold water". It had to do with a chain apparatus that is used for baseball.
Kind of makes me wish that I didnt move from Oahu to the Big Island of Hawaii almost 20 years ago! Just a little bit.:D

[LAball]

For pencil armed youngsters, all the bat speed in the world won't do you any good if the bat is knocked backwards on contact because it has not been braced. The deflated basketball drill is only a technique reinforcement-feedback device, ........................not a drill designed to change swings.


Agreed, just make sure the kid understand why your hitting the basketball. But I do think it will change the swing if the kid wasnt "bracing" the bat before.

[Ursa Major]

Originally Posted by Ursa Major
For pencil armed youngsters, all the bat speed in the world won't do you any good if the bat is knocked backwards on contact because it has not been braced.

I still believe this is a terrible drill.
Consider that the bat will be in contact with the ball for roughly 1/2000 of a second. That is not sufficient time for an impulse to be sent down the arm, down the torso, down the leg, push against the ground, and return back up the body and have the arms push the bat barrel into the ball. The ball will be long gone before that round trip impulse can take place.

In hitting, think hitting the ball with a fast bat .... not muscling through the ball.FiveFrame, I must have not made my point clear here. For 9 year olds, a huge problem is that their batdrag swings have no bracing and the bat "gives" when the ball hits it. Here's an example I've seen a zillion times -- here an 80-lb., 10 y/o UrsaMinor reaches out without tilting to pull a pitch near the outside. His batspeed was okay and he made pretty solid contact, hitting a hair below center. On a diamond with 70 foot bases you'd think that it would be a clean single to left, but in fact the lack of a brace caused the bathead to kick down on contact and the ball blooped only about 50 feet down the line and died in front of the third baseman, and Minor beat it out for an infield hit.
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/KAaronBatlag.gif
If he instead had been tilted to that he could have reached the pitch with his back arm in the power-L, the ball would have been into the outfield. Batspeed alone is not enough to propel the ball -- you need mass and something to make sure the force of the moving bat isn't dissipated by the force of the incoming ball. So, it's not a matter of "muscling the ball forward" (whatever that is), but avoiding the knocking of the bat backwards. This is just common sense.

So, why the basketball "drill." Too often, we have kids hitting wiffle balls or pickle balls (which have little mass) or drill with softoss or slow BP, so they don't feel the effect of the force of a fully pitched ball, and so in practice they can get away with a draggy, unbraced swing. Maybe they won't tilt much, because they can still reach every pitch and hit them with authority. So, you sic them on one of the baketballs and reallize that they can't hit it very far with an unbraced swing. So, they try againt with the tilt that allows a Power-L and hit the ball much farther and with little strain on their elbow. Presto -- you've got immediate feedback as to what the dangers of those bad swings is, and thus are more likely to do the kindof swing we've taught them.

[Ursa Major]

Originally Posted by Ursa Major
Well, there's a vast difference between the enhancement to a high level swing brought about by wrist snap, and the detriment to a tiny youngster's swing caused by no wrist snap at all.

I'm going to need video confirmation of this.

Review the video in the link below and let me know what you think.

Don't Use The Hands (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHkkEWZEDdg&NR=1)Video confirmation of what? That big leaguers use wrist snap? I explained why video confirmation was tough to come by (because it doesn't show why the wrists snapped) but HiddenGem's analysis and the statements of many other major leaguers confirm that it's important. Why is that so hard to believe?

And, like the above post about bracing, kids whose hands move lethargically through the contact zone are likely have the ball knock the bat "backwards" and hit to right field (if they're righties). It's like karate -- if you want to move something, you hit through it.

You posted that golf instruction clip earlier, and I think you're missing the point of it. The instructor is in no way drilling or advising golfers to not use their hands. Rather, he's treating this as an isolation drill that forces the golfer to try to get more power out of his body in order to move his arms, because with the drill he's getting no help from any backswing. He may well have a reciprocal isolation drill where you move nothing but the sholders, arrms and hands in order to improve golfers' upper body technique -- if he were to do so, he wouldn't be asserting that players stand stiff-legged with no hip movement! He in no way is suggesting nor would suggest that -- when you put the whole swing back together you don't "put the hands back in."

[BoardMember]

You posted that golf instruction clip earlier, and I think you're missing the point of it. The instructor is in no way drilling or advising golfers to not use their hands. Rather, he's treating this as an isolation drill that forces the golfer to try to get more power out of his body in order to move his arms, because with the drill he's getting no help from any backswing. He may well have a reciprocal isolation drill where you move nothing but the sholders, arrms and hands in order to improve golfers' upper body technique -- if he were to do so, he wouldn't be asserting that players stand stiff-legged with no hip movement! He in no way is suggesting nor would suggest that -- when you put the whole swing back together you don't "put the hands back in."

Reverse Chaining........

3 Power Sources...... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9INEmXtMiY&NR=1)

[BoardMember]

POC Isolation Drill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Is6oKlOJU5Y&feature=channel)

[BoardMember]

The fallacy of "shoulder bypass" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntgGBDc9g6Y&feature=related) with the worlds longest hitters.......

[FiveFrameSwing]

FiveFrame, I must have not made my point clear here. For 9 year olds, a huge problem is that their batdrag swings have no bracing and the bat "gives" when the ball hits it. Here's an example I've seen a zillion times -- here an 80-lb., 10 y/o UrsaMinor reaches out without tilting to pull a pitch near the outside. His batspeed was okay and he made pretty solid contact, hitting a hair below center. On a diamond with 70 foot bases you'd think that it would be a clean single to left, but in fact the lack of a brace caused the bathead to kick down on contact and the ball blooped only about 50 feet down the line and died in front of the third baseman, and Minor beat it out for an infield hit.
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/KAaronBatlag.gif
If he instead had been tilted to that he could have reached the pitch with his back arm in the power-L, the ball would have been into the outfield. Batspeed alone is not enough to propel the ball -- you need mass and something to make sure the force of the moving bat isn't dissipated by the force of the incoming ball. So, it's not a matter of "muscling the ball forward" (whatever that is), but avoiding the knocking of the bat backwards. This is just common sense.

So, why the basketball "drill." Too often, we have kids hitting wiffle balls or pickle balls (which have little mass) or drill with softoss or slow BP, so they don't feel the effect of the force of a fully pitched ball, and so in practice they can get away with a draggy, unbraced swing. Maybe they won't tilt much, because they can still reach every pitch and hit them with authority. So, you sic them on one of the baketballs and reallize that they can't hit it very far with an unbraced swing. So, they try againt with the tilt that allows a Power-L and hit the ball much farther and with little strain on their elbow. Presto -- you've got immediate feedback as to what the dangers of those bad swings is, and thus are more likely to do the kindof swing we've taught them.

It's a bad drill. In the last year I've had to clean up the mechanics in 30+ hitters that developed poor mechanics from using this drill. It's really a pain as it requires re-engineering their lower body mechanics.

You speak of a brace, and by this it sounds like you wish to restrict the bat from moving backwards .... but you also speak of force.

Given that one swings a bat with a constant mass, then it's the acceleration of that mass that is proportional to the force.

The objective should be to make contact with the ball with a fast bat.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Video confirmation of what? That big leaguers use wrist snap? I explained why video confirmation was tough to come by (because it doesn't show why the wrists snapped) but HiddenGem's analysis and the statements of many other major leaguers confirm that it's important.

BM posted three clips above. During the "hand usage" portion it spoke of "hinge and unhinge", not "snap".

If you meant "hinge & unhinge" when you were speaking about "snap", then I'm okay with that. Is that what you meant?

[BoardMember]

BM posted three clips above. During the "hand usage" portion it spoke of "hinge and unhinge", not "snap".

If you meant "hinge & unhinge" when you were speaking about "snap", then I'm okay with that. Is that what you meant?

"Snap" is refered to as the fastest portion/point of acceleration of the implement using the most distal portion of the accelerator.......

Is Finch snapping or unhinging?........

http://i39.tinypic.com/2yoz8z6.gif

Is Pujols snapping or unhinging?.......

http://i40.tinypic.com/xn8414.gif

[soceric]

Maybe this kid can just quietly watch videos of some great, fundamentally sound hitters and imitate them.

who knows whether the kid gets quality bp, quality short toss,etc.

The above advice IMO is golden. My advice is that your kid looks pretty talented. Don't put 10,000 things in his head. Pitch him BP, soft toss and have him swing at the strikes. Give positive feedback, and resist the urge to correct what you may think is wrong.

Seems simple.. Maybe too simple, but that is what i'd do.

Good luck and enjoy these fun times ;)

[FiveFrameSwing]

"Snap" is refered to as the fastest portion/point of acceleration of the implement using the most distal portion of the accelerator.......

Is Finch snapping or unhinging?........

http://i39.tinypic.com/2yoz8z6.gif




Interesting that you would post a fastpitch pitcher.

During a recent coaching seminar Kirk Walker, of OSU, made a presentation in which he stated that it was wrong to teach the snapping of the wrist during the release. He stressed the emphasis on "pressure points" and on not "snapping".

[BoardMember]

Interesting that you would post a fastpitch pitcher.

During a recent coaching seminar Kirk Walker, of OSU, made a presentation in which he stated that it was wrong to teach the snapping of the wrist during the release. He stressed the emphasis on "pressure points" and on not "snapping".

Ya, ok, but you didn't anwser the question.

This is arguably on of the greatest pitchers in the world.

Is she "snapping" or "unhinging"?

(BTW, its a trick question)

[hitnpeas]

Originally Posted by hitnpeas
Call this school, ask for the baseball coach and see who he recommends.... Good luck and let us know how it goes!!

Punahou School
1601 Punahou Street
Honolulu, Hawaii 96822

Phone: 808.944.5711

Thank you hitnpeas. However, I live on the Big Island of Hawaii. Punahou School is on Oahu and I am sure there is a plethora of baseball instructors on that island. I believe that the world champions of little league is from that Island.

We plan on coming out this summer to the big island. Maybe I will shoot you a pm to see what things are a must to do while there and I will bring some bats for some BP. :D As far as the contact I gave you, being that Punahou is a GREAT SPORTS SCHOOL I think it is a safe bet that the AD or Coach might know someone on the big island. Worth a try.... :nod:

[hitnpeas]

Ya, ok, but you didn't anwser the question.

This is arguably on of the greatest pitchers in the world.

Is she "snapping" or "unhinging"?

(BTW, its a trick question)

She is snapping while unhinging.... :crossfingers:

[FiveFrameSwing]

Ya, ok, but you didn't anwser the question.

This is arguably on of the greatest pitchers in the world.

Is she "snapping" or "unhinging"?

(BTW, its a trick question)

Kirk gave a very convincing presentation, complete with supporting slow-motion video and reasons not to focus on a wrist snap. If given the choice of "snapping" or "unhinging", I'm going to have to rule out "snapping". I'm not so sure the term "unhinging" is correct here .... I'd have to look up the definition.

When I view the clip of Finch frame-by-frame I see that the ball is released prior to the action in the wrist.

[BoardMember]

When I view the clip of Finch frame-by-frame I see that the ball is released prior to the action in the wrist.

Very astute Five........

You pass.......

Howver, the wrist is ABSOLUTE snapping........AFTER THE BALL HAS BEEN RELEASED...

Proper "wrist snap" is a "result" of maximum accelation achieved during unhinging of radial to ulnar deviation of the wrist, combined with medial rotation of the rear shoulder(glenohumeral), and pronation of the forearm...........IN REVERSE ORDER........

EXACTLY THE SAME AS HITTING..........

http://i40.tinypic.com/xn8414.gif

[FiveFrameSwing]

EXACTLY THE SAME AS HITTING..........



What I teach for hitting in this portion of the swing is to allow the top hand to be thrown past the bottom hand.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/TopHandPastBottomHand/CaitlinBenji2005UCLA_FView_tophandpastbothand.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/TopHandPastBottomHand/Pudge_tophandpastbothand.gif

I personally don't refer to this as snapping .... and my students that have come to me with "intent to snap" ...... weeelllllllll, I have them stop what they are showing me and I have them do what we see above.

[BoardMember]

What I teach for hitting in this portion of the swing is to allow the top hand to be thrown past the bottom hand.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/TopHandPastBottomHand/CaitlinBenji2005UCLA_FView_tophandpastbothand.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/TopHandPastBottomHand/Pudge_tophandpastbothand.gif

I personally don't refer to this as snapping .... and my students that have come to me with "intent to snap" ...... weeelllllllll, I have them stop what they are showing me and I have them do what we see above.

Namely, learn HOW to release the bat.......that creates snap.........

[Ursa Major]

It's a bad drill. In the last year I've had to clean up the mechanics in 30+ hitters that developed poor mechanics from using this drill. It's really a pain as it requires re-engineering their lower body mechanics..Forgive me if I say that's a little hard to believe. Let's say that you're speaking hyperbolically -- can one drill be the source of so many bad swings, and you've taken the time to determine this? Please read my posts -- I do not intend this as an ongoing drill, but a brief demonstration/illustration device.

You speak of a brace, and by this it sounds like you wish to restrict the bat from moving backwards .... but you also speak of force.Think of a well braced and timed swing as a sort of valve -- it prevents a liquid from moving against the desired flow while not restricting movement in the desired direction. If timed correctly, there is no loss of forward force by timing the swing so that the bat is braced at the instant of contact.
Given that one swings a bat with a constant mass, then it's the acceleration of that mass that is proportional to the force.That sounds right, but again, look to common sense. Create two swings that are in all senses identical and have identical bathead speeds, with one variable -- one bat is attached to a stiff, braced structure, and the other is being held by you with only the thumb and forefinger curled around the handle to keep the bat from flying away. If both strike a thrown ball squarely, which ball do you think will travel further?

The objective should be to make contact with the ball with a fast bat.Agreed, but, as noted above, batspeed is a necessary but not sufficient component of a powerful swing.

[FiveFrameSwing]

No problem UM, we don't agree on the merits of the drill.

I'm not following how your bracing action is achieved. I wonder if you consider a swing braced when the lead arm is extended? If so, then IMO are are far better drills than hitting a deflated basketball.

[Ursa Major]

BM posted three clips above. During the "hand usage" portion it spoke of "hinge and unhinge", not "snap".

If you meant "hinge & unhinge" when you were speaking about "snap", then I'm okay with that. Is that what you meant?
Well, just because "PGA member Jay Goldin" calls it unhinging doesn't make it the definitive word on the physics of a baseball swing. (I'm a member of Doctors Without Borders; can I take out your appendix?)

I think I'll defer to the kinesiologists and maybe the semanticists in determining whether it's snapping or releasing. As you note, on a good swing, the hands are unhinged and it may well be that they can't catch up with the turning of the bat handle so as to be adding any incremental bat speed. This has been debated here and on Setpro's site going way back, and I'm not sure that the universal answer has been found. If I say that the hands should "unhinge with vigor", can we still be friends? The problem with trying to distinguish between "snapping" and "unhinging" is that the latter term is ambiguous -- does "unhinge" imply or require that the hitter intended consciously to allow the wrists to straighten, or is it enough to passively allow it to occur? And the two hands are doing slightly different things, as the bottom hand and wrist should be both "snapping" the hand forward (in a sort of karate chop sense) AND guiding the bat back toward the chest and then front shoulder (if you believe the "J-hook" theory. How much of that do you call the "snap"?

For real world purposes, you've hit on something important -- it's not so much what the hands actually do, but what you're saying to the hitters you're instructing in light of their ingrained, "armsy" swings. I agree that telling kids to snap their wrists may lead to premature disconnection. As I've explained it -- echoing similar sentiments from many other instructors -- most kids come to me knowing generally how to swing; the trick is to get them to stop doing it. In other words, tell them to take all the steps involved in a good swing and expressly avoid talking about what the hands should be doing, because when they get to the end of the swing process, the hands will do their instinctive thing anyway.

The younger the hitter, the more likely you are to need to de-emphasize the importance of the hands, or "unhinging", or snapping the wrists.

[Jake Patterson]

The younger the hitter, the more likely you are to need to de-emphasize the importance of the hands, or "unhinging", or snapping the wrists.My experience would support this statement.

[Ursa Major]

No problem UM, we don't agree on the merits of the drill.No, we probably would be in agreement if hitting a deflated basketball were actually used as an ongoing drill. But I'm not suggesting that it be so used. Do you think there's a danger to kids if you have them whack the basketball two or three times only with their disconnected or draggy (i.e., the back elbow is in front of the hands) swing to show them why the mechanics of their swing is hurting them?

I'm not following how your bracing action is achieved. I wonder if you consider a swing braced when the lead arm is extended? If so, then IMO are are far better drills than hitting a deflated basketball.
How is it achieved? Here's a clip I isolated of Miguel Cabrera (gad, I love that dude's swing!) doing very nicely and without constriction having a lovely Power-L at the moment of contact.
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/Cabrerra3_Braced.gif

You also asked if a swing with the lead arm extended can be braced First, of course, bracing may be a matter of degree and necessity. You'll never fully brace a pitch on the outside corner at the knees, but with decent tilt and technique you can get close enough. As for necessity, a stud like Manny Ramirez or Ryan Howard hitting a slow breaking ball can probably get by without any bracing and not noticeably lost power. A 9 year old (and that is the subject of this thread) with both arms straight at contact will lose ooomph relative to what he could have achieved on the same pitch by tilting toward the same pitch so that he's close enough to the ball to hit it without extending both arms.

And, sure, I can see circumstances where you can have a braced swing with the lead arm extended but the back forearm is still pointing to the pitcher:

(a) where you've rotated your upper body completely enough so that your lead shoulder is rotated beyond 90 degrees at contact,

(b) where you're way ahead of the pitch and your hands are pushed out toward the pitcher, and/or

(c) where you're hitting a low inside pitch with good tilt -- like on this home run that HiddenGem hit a couple of years ago for Portland:
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/DMsacHR1a.gif

It's not the best example I could find of 'bracing', but I just love putting up Hiddengem home run clips. And he is the poster child for why hitters should love low inside strikes. (Wanna see a clip of his home run for the Astros in his first major leage at-bat? Same thing.) But, I'm digressing.

[Stealth]

So, why the basketball "drill." Too often, we have kids hitting wiffle balls or pickle balls (which have little mass) or drill with softoss or slow BP, so they don't feel the effect of the force of a fully pitched ball, and so in practice they can get away with a draggy, unbraced swing. Maybe they won't tilt much, because they can still reach every pitch and hit them with authority. So, you sic them on one of the baketballs and reallize that they can't hit it very far with an unbraced swing. So, they try againt with the tilt that allows a Power-L and hit the ball much farther and with little strain on their elbow. Presto -- you've got immediate feedback as to what the dangers of those bad swings is, and thus are more likely to do the kindof swing we've taught them.

We have a local facility where all they use are tennis balls? The ball sure jumps off the bat!:D

[FiveFrameSwing]

http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/Cabrerra3_Braced.gif


Thanks for providing a clip to help describe what you meant by "power-L".

[Ursa Major]

Thanks for providing a clip to help describe what you meant by "power-L".Video can be so helpful in overcoming the limitations of the written word, so long as it's not misused (particularly by grabbing a bad swing of a great hitter and trying to use it to support a dubious point).

Where I've found the Power-L to be particularly helpful is with inside strikes. In fact, I think it 's one of the reasons that college pitchers hate to come inside, because modern non-wooden bats have such huge sweet spots that hitters can rotate and keep their hands in and deposit those pitches in the left field stands.

In our rec league, the 13-14 year old team is mostly 13 year olds, because the potential pool of 14 year olds are largely freshmen in high school and playing on their high school teams instead. Because our pool of opponents (because it's Pony ball with the odd 80-foot basepaths at that age level) is small, we end up playing a lot of games against two "all-star" squads from a town about ten miles away -- kids who are on high school teams but use these games to stay tuned up. And they tend to be bigger and earlier-developed kids. Most importantly, they've all got disciplined rotational training and you just cannot sneak a fastball by them on the inside, because they have those swings like Miggy and just fist the ball out over the left-fielder's head.