How prevalant are steroids,pro-hormones,and stimulants in hs or college ball?

[omg]

Just wondering if anybody has any sense about the use of supplements in baseball at these levels.

[Knights Baseball]

I know steriods are pretty common in the college ranks, in any level. But the thing about drug tests that most schools give is that they are for detecting street drugs, so players can take steriods without being afraid. The test for detecting steriods are pretty expensive, so for small or private college athletes, they really dont have to worry. D1 athletes from big schools would prob. be the only kids who could get caught during the reg. season, unless the school suspected something. Now, during the post college season, the ncaa does their own random drug test and pick a couple of people off of each team. That is when the players have to worry. As for high school, i imagine there are some cases, but i dont think there are many.

[conky149er]

I know steriods are pretty common in the college ranks, in any level. But the thing about drug tests that most schools give is that they are for detecting street drugs, so players can take steriods without being afraid. The test for detecting steriods are pretty expensive, so for small or private college athletes, they really dont have to worry. D1 athletes from big schools would prob. be the only kids who could get caught during the reg. season, unless the school suspected something. Now, during the post college season, the ncaa does their own random drug test and pick a couple of people off of each team. That is when the players have to worry. As for high school, i imagine there are some cases, but i dont think there are many.

any substance you can use to add more muscle without it beign illegal or causing you to die early?

[Knights Baseball]

The only thing that i now is the old fashion way, bust your tale in the gym, eat right, and hope that your genetics are good enough. I have read that if you work out hard and drink a gatorade and protein shake after the gatorade, then the gatorade will spike your insulin and the insulin will help the protein from the shake enter the muscles better. That is about it:sorry:

[korp]

Usage increases the higher you go. Most schools like said above don't test for performance enhancing drugs.

[Knights Baseball]

When I first went to college, I could not believe how easy it was to get them.

[Jon Doyle]

Just wondering if anybody has any sense about the use of supplements in baseball at these levels.
In a word...VERY

[LAball]

Its pretty sad what America has come to. Thats why we still post use Bonds as the end all to hitting. There was a day before when Honor ment something.

[omg]

In a word...VERY

That's what I thought. Since you are in a related field can you "guess" as to how accurate I am in speculating about these supps in terms of what percentages are using?

Creatine hs-50 per cent college 100 pro 100

stimulants-hs-10 college 50 pro 90

pro-hormones-hs-25 college 90 pro 90

steroids- hs-5 college 25 pro 15 (w/testing) 95 (w/o testing)

[kylebee]

In a word...VERY

Sigh. This is true. I've experienced plenty of anonymous (and not so anonymous) stories at my own HS that I coach at, much less the district.

[kylebee]

That's what I thought. Since you are in a related field can you "guess" as to how accurate I am in speculating about these supps in terms of what percentages are using?

Creatine hs-50 per cent college 100 pro 100

stimulants-hs-10 college 50 pro 90

pro-hormones-hs-25 college 90 pro 90

steroids- hs-5 college 25 pro 15 (w/testing) 95 (w/o testing)

After speaking with a few minor leaguers around here, the OTC stuff is actually a bit more dangerous to use because the compounds in them are not as stable due to the shoddy manufacturing and packing processes by these companies. MLB and MiLB issues a list of approved manufacturers and supplements for their players to use, but obviously people will want to use products from other places that are more effective and/or undetected.

My experience has been that the long grind of the season tends to push position players towards stimulants and pitchers towards drugs that can help decrease recovery time, but it's just anecdotal evidence from what I hear from current/former players as well as what's reported in official press releases.

All it takes is a simple reading of Ball Four by Jim Bouton to show you that players are more than willing to try amphetamines to get an edge.

[korp]

That's what I thought. Since you are in a related field can you "guess" as to how accurate I am in speculating about these supps in terms of what percentages are using?

Creatine hs-50 per cent college 100 pro 100

stimulants-hs-10 college 50 pro 90

pro-hormones-hs-25 college 90 pro 90

steroids- hs-5 college 25 pro 15 (w/testing) 95 (w/o testing)

Creatine is a natural occuring substance anyways so the usage does not matter. As or hormones and steroids, your numbers are inflated for college without testing. The pro number is probably somewhat closer but you have to remember there are still alot of people who don't hit 20+ homeruns who probably aren't taking them.

[NY16CATCHER]

It's rampant at the college level and I am sure at the HS level to some extent as well.

The NCAA has done a terrible job of having an effective and tangible enforcement and testing policy. They are so focused on BCS football (where they do test BTW), that the other sports are generally ignored. I am told that the peformance enhancer of choice is HGH at the moment, although I am sure good old fashioned injectible steroids are still a popular choice as well.

[Knights Baseball]

Like i said they are so easy to get. In college, every ball player has a private mailbox and most are getting money from families that are not asking where the money is going. All you have to do is go on the internet and order what ever you want. If they dont wnat to do it that way, every college has that "guy" that either deals or knows a dealer.

[Jon Doyle]

After speaking with a few minor leaguers around here, the OTC stuff is actually a bit more dangerous to use because the compounds in them are not as stable due to the shoddy manufacturing and packing processes by these companies. MLB and MiLB issues a list of approved manufacturers and supplements for their players to use, but obviously people will want to use products from other places that are more effective and/or undetected.

My experience has been that the long grind of the season tends to push position players towards stimulants and pitchers towards drugs that can help decrease recovery time, but it's just anecdotal evidence from what I hear from current/former players as well as what's reported in official press releases.

All it takes is a simple reading of Ball Four by Jim Bouton to show you that players are more than willing to try amphetamines to get an edge.
This is not the case, as far as the compounds "being less stable" for OTC. If you were talking injectables that were made in underground lab, then yes.

What you have to be more careful on is if companies are putting things in the product that are not on the label. It's rare, but has and will continue to, happen.

Creatine shouldn't be lumped in with prescription steroids and speed. I would gather most ballplayers have, at one time, at least tried creatine. And really, why shouldnt they? It's a researched OTC compound that can help performance.

The other stuff, I'm not going to give a %, because it changes so much and most guys don't admit to it anyway, but the signs are obvious if you know what to look for.

As Kyle mentioned, recovery is key. Most pros don't use to gain a ton of muscle or strength. They want to feel good when they go to the park because if you can do that, you have a HUGE leg up on your competition. Not condoning use, just stating facts on why they use.

HGH is THE choice now-a-days. Mainly because of its recovery abilities and there is no testing for it. There are also some popular over the counter HGH supplements that have gained popularity because they work and are safe.

It's virtually impossible to police on the collegiate and HS level. Way too costly.

[Jon Doyle]

This is not the case, as far as the compounds "being less stable" for OTC. If you were talking injectables that were made in underground lab, then yes.

What you have to be more careful on is if companies are putting things in the product that are not on the label. It's rare, but has and will continue to, happen.

Creatine shouldn't be lumped in with prescription steroids and speed. I would gather most ballplayers have, at one time, at least tried creatine. And really, why shouldnt they? It's a researched OTC compound that can help performance.

The other stuff, I'm not going to give a %, because it changes so much and most guys don't admit to it anyway, but the signs are obvious if you know what to look for.

As Kyle mentioned, recovery is key. Most pros don't use to gain a ton of muscle or strength. They want to feel good when they go to the park because if you can do that, you have a HUGE leg up on your competition. Not condoning use, just stating facts on why they use.

HGH is THE choice now-a-days. Mainly because of its recovery abilities and there is no testing for it. There are also some popular over the counter HGH supplements that have gained popularity because they work and are safe.

It's virtually impossible to police on the collegiate and HS level. Way too costly.
Also, the companies that have been approved are usually selling nothing more than what are considered "safe" compounds such as proteins & creatine. These companies paid a large sum to become approved. While this is not a bad thing at all, most athletes will want something in addition to these safe products (which are considered a "staple" - like a multivitamin) to increase performance.

[omg]

Also, the companies that have been approved are usually selling nothing more than what are considered "safe" compounds such as proteins & creatine. These companies paid a large sum to become approved. While this is not a bad thing at all, most athletes will want something in addition to these safe products (which are considered a "staple" - like a multivitamin) to increase performance.

I know creatine is ncaa approved but is it approved in hs? I doubt anyone would have permitted studies on kids 18u. Thanks for your insight. Are any actual pro-hormones approved for ncaa or mlb? I know that some pro-hormones have not yet been banned by the FDA but isn't this just a case of being 1 step in front of the law?

[callyjr]

any substance you can use to add more muscle without it beign illegal or causing you to die early?

You can grow your muscles naturally with Creatine and things of that sort and your not lowering your life span, but you when you start taking stuff that increases your organs to grow as well then you do start lowering your life span.

[cubsphill]

I know creatine is ncaa approved but is it approved in hs? I doubt anyone would have permitted studies on kids 18u...

Here it is not allowed unless you have a doctor's prescription. Of course no athlete cares and uses it anyway. Also, coaches and any school official actually, can not recommend the use of the substance.

[Knights Baseball]

I remember going into the trainer's room and seeing that list of things outlawed. Some were obvious but that list was so big that i thought i was goin to be caught for something that i didn't even know i was doing.

[tominct]

Here it is not allowed unless you have a doctor's prescription. Of course no athlete cares and uses it anyway. Also, coaches and any school official actually, can not recommend the use of the substance.

I has a roomate that played DII football. Coaches would not "recommend" the use of anything....

BUT...

One might have a conversation with a coach like this, lets say, during spring practice:

"Joe, you're doing a great job and we think you could really contribute in the fall....one thing though, you need to gain some weight"

"Coach I'm in the gym everyday, I take supplements and I'm on creatine and glutamine"

"I don't know, but Joe, but if you were 270, you'd be a beast!"

"Coach, that's like 15 pounds, how can I put on 15 pounds between now and August?"

"Joe, there are ways, you might want to talk to so and so.

"I guess coach, thanks."

During that era, my tiny little DII school had a player go from 235 at the end of spring(May) to 265 to start his junior season in August and was 275 when his senior season began...40 pounds in 15 months(a good 25 % of which looked to be massed on his forehead and jawline)...his reward was being a fifth round draft pick and went on to a nice little 5 or 6 years career in the NFL. I might add, having known the kid, and having him as a guest in my apartment, it could not have happened to a bigger, more arrogant, first class piece of human excrement.

My point is that the coaches KNEW. They had to know, and they did not care. As for HS, I can recall a football team here in CT about 10-12 years ago that won something like 45 straight games. The coach during a bulk of that time has gone on to the college ranks and was just named offensive coordinator at Florida. They had maybe 6 All-State players one year and a friend of mine and I deduced, however unscientifically, (by simply looking closely at their mugshots on the all-state page,) that at least 4 of them were clearly steroid users. the other two we reserved judgement.

the moral of the story is simple...the elite athlets use them(roids hgh, whatever)....period.

[kylebee]

This is not the case, as far as the compounds "being less stable" for OTC. If you were talking injectables that were made in underground lab, then yes.

What you have to be more careful on is if companies are putting things in the product that are not on the label. It's rare, but has and will continue to, happen.

This is what I meant to say. Sorry for being unclear.

[Maxx]

I have coached at high school and college level, and these substances--steroids, HGH, and stimulants are very prevalent at both levels. And the kids who aren't taking it, are looking into it. Go and check out the Sports Training forum on bodybuilding.com to see what some of these kids are doing......

[kylebee]

I have coached at high school and college level, and these substances--steroids, HGH, and stimulants are very prevalent at both levels. And the kids who aren't taking it, are looking into it. Go and check out the Sports Training forum on bodybuilding.com to see what some of these kids are doing......

I agree. With the advent of the Internet and the ability to browse "the usual suspects" (bb.com, tn.com, st.com - abbreviating since I don't want to link them) and "reputable" underground labs that people are touting (ALN, mostly), kids are finding out about this stuff earlier and earlier. Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with freedom of information - and I support this kind of research to get informed about the dangers of the various types of steroids. Simply telling kids that "steroids are bad" or "your joints will get screwed up" or other things about their...well, private parts...isn't going to stop them from looking into it.

Learning all you can about proper nutrition, exercise science, and supplements (legal, illegal, and questionable) is a must if you're a sports coach, IMO. At the beginning of the year when I have the freshman meeting, I'll be sure to cover this topic and let them know that I have an "open door policy" with guarantees of anonymity if they want to come to me with any questions.

[tominct]

I watched the documentary Bigger, Stronger, Faster last night and it is very interesting. It chronicles a family of three boys all of whom have dabbled in roids and two of whom are doing it into their thirties. One is a power-lifter and another who is a wrestler wanna-be. I highly recommend it to anyone with even a passing interest in the steroid debate.

Just to let you know....steroids ranked 142 among drug related emergency room visits, behind such things as aspirin, alcohol, and cocaine, or course, and all the sudafed realted products!

Among drug related deaths per year in the Unbited States, in the year quoted in the film tobacco was over 400,000, alcohol in the upper tens of thousands and steroids....3. So the idea of banning 'roids because it will "kill you" is kind of silly.

Tom

[Encinitas]

I loved ephedrine HCL which is illegal for athletes these days. However in terms of appetite suppressant and a little CNS boost you can't beat it.

Best and cheapest stack ever was ECA Stack. I used to think they banned it because the drug companies couldn't make any money until I realized the meth-heads used it in their potion....

[ssarge]

Great and interesting discussion.

Sounds as if Jon is very knowledgable and from a place of real visibility in the scene. I appreciate the insight.

Jon: Is a combination of Creatine and HGH pretty powerful? I'm guessing yes for strength / size; less so for recovery. But from a pro baseball perspective, ZERO chance of getting caught on the HGH, right? (I seem to recall it requires a blood test to detect, and the blood test is not allowed under the CBA?)

[handyman11]

If there are no testing / and associated penalties , some athletes will do anything to get that edge ...

Back in my travel softball days , steroids were extremely prevalent , not just at the 'major' level , but even at the lower levels ....we had 5 players out of 13 on our team , ar who were on them ,and it not only helped them from a strength standpoint , but also from a recovery standpoint, which I think is really underrated ....if we played 5-7 games in a day , the rest of us would struggle to get loose the next day ... while they looked fresh as can be ....

At the 'major' level of softball , the percentage had to be 90+ percent ..standing next to some of these guys was like going to a WWF wrestling match ...

So when I hear skeptics tell me that in MLB , where hundreds of thousands of dollars are at stake , even for that 24-25th roster spot , that in the pre-testing era the percentages were not that high , I have to laugh ( and feel for the guys vying for those 25th spots who were 'clean' ) ....

I think an interesting story would be which pros had huge drop-offs in statistics , and which pros ( some breaking in at ages 30 and up ) ... dropped in and out of sight , when testing came about .....

Another argument I havw heard would be that steroids can't take an average college athlete and make them a pro athlete ...anyone who saw Tony Mandarich , or how his body and his ability shrunk when he became a pro , and had to be tested , would realize that is not the case .....

[jima]

I watched the documentary Bigger, Stronger, Faster last night and it is very interesting. It chronicles a family of three boys all of whom have dabbled in roids and two of whom are doing it into their thirties. One is a power-lifter and another who is a wrestler wanna-be. I highly recommend it to anyone with even a passing interest in the steroid debate.

Just to let you know....steroids ranked 142 among drug related emergency room visits, behind such things as aspirin, alcohol, and cocaine, or course, and all the sudafed realted products!

Among drug related deaths per year in the Unbited States, in the year quoted in the film tobacco was over 400,000, alcohol in the upper tens of thousands and steroids....3. So the idea of banning 'roids because it will "kill you" is kind of silly.

Tom

Tom, you and I have discussed this before...I know you feel that Pandora's box has been opened and I also know that you fell that roids and hgh are no more dangerous than aspirin. That said, if you children are good athletes at 15 or 16 but too small to reach athletic goals that both you and they want, will you try find hormonal help for them?

[Knights Baseball]

Most styeriod deaths would not be considered because of steriods would they. I mean they cause everyday stuff like heart attacks, cancer, etc. so i think there are probably more deaths from steriods that 3, the prob got chalked up to something else.

[ssarge]

Most styeriod deaths would not be considered because of steriods would they. I mean they cause everyday stuff like heart attacks, cancer, etc. so i think there are probably more deaths from steriods that 3, the prob got chalked up to something else.

There probably are, but most of the people freaming of glory don't care.

I used to think this was because people just assumed "it won;t happen to me." A natural enough by-product of youth, energy, and strength.

I really don;t think that explains it though.

The famous Sports Illustrated poll of 20+ years ago was eye-opening. A large percentage of pro athletes, when asked if they would ake a pill that GUARANTEED they would set a world record, but also GUARANTEED they would be dead in 5 years - before age 30 in most cases - said "yes." Over 40% as I recall.

Meaning that for 40% of the athletically gifted population, 5 years of glory - then death - is more desirable than taking a chance at attaining glory, and regardless of how that pans out, living a long life - even if it is "ordinary."

It's none of my business, but that sucks.

[ssarge]

So when I hear skeptics tell me that in MLB , where hundreds of thousands of dollars are at stake , even for that 24-25th roster spot , that in the pre-testing era the percentages were not that high , I have to laugh ( and feel for the guys vying for those 25th spots who were 'clean' ) ....


I wish I was humanistic enough to care that people might affect their health with steroids, basically with the byproduct being providing entertainment for people like me. At some level, I do care, but truthfully, isn't my biggest problem with the prevalence of steroids.

What really bothers me is the lack of a level playing ground. When an 18-20 YO person has to make a decision to break the law and risk his / her health just to have a realistic opportunity to COMPETE, I think that is really unfortunate.

[tominct]

Tom, you and I have discussed this before...I know you feel that Pandora's box has been opened and I also know that you fell that roids and hgh are no more dangerous than aspirin. That said, if you children are good athletes at 15 or 16 but too small to reach athletic goals that both you and they want, will you try find hormonal help for them?

Hmmm....putting me right in the crosshairs are ya!

OK, I'll bite....

It ultimately would not be my decision.

I would not suggest it.

The goal we are talking about are an opportunity to play PROFESSIONAL sports....that's what we are talking here...

If asked, I will give an the most honest, most informed, unemotional answer I could give. I would advise my son to consider his goals and the risk/benefit of taking performance enhancers. If he was going to do them, I would not throw a hissy fit, in fact, I would make some phone calls I know people. I would want to be sure he was getting good stuff, as safe as possible, and that he was administering them properly. And yes, I would shoot him up if he asked. I would also insist that his doctor know and that his health was monitored accordingly.

I never said steroids were not as dangerous as aspirin, by the way. I was trying to make the point that the steroid mentailty in this country is a joke, a total hypocrisy, and based on hysteria and not science.

Show me the science!

Tom

[handyman11]

I know that Pro Wrestlers are not the norm , as they probably indulged in mass quantities of the juice over the years ...but it sure seems like alot of them are dying young ...not sure if that is measurable , from a scientific point of view , but it would scare me away ... but does'nt seem to scare younger kids in any way, shape or form ...

[jima]

Hmmm....putting me right in the crosshairs are ya!

OK, I'll bite....

It ultimately would not be my decision.

I would not suggest it.

The goal we are talking about are an opportunity to play PROFESSIONAL sports....that's what we are talking here...

If asked, I will give an the most honest, most informed, unemotional answer I could give. I would advise my son to consider his goals and the risk/benefit of taking performance enhancers. If he was going to do them, I would not throw a hissy fit, in fact, I would make some phone calls I know people. I would want to be sure he was getting good stuff, as safe as possible, and that he was administering them properly. And yes, I would shoot him up if he asked. I would also insist that his doctor know and that his health was monitored accordingly.

I never said steroids were not as dangerous as aspirin, by the way. I was trying to make the point that the steroid mentailty in this country is a joke, a total hypocrisy, and based on hysteria and not science.

Show me the science!

Tom

Sorry to do that to you Tom, but I'm much older than you and I think that is the real difference in how we view the performance enhancing stuff...in my day "Brown mule" and sometimes a "greenie" took care of matters. Something that essentially changes the genes you were born is over the line...a different world I guess. Take care. jima

[rkbenn]

I was a territory manager for a cardio company and worked in the cath lab. I would see 30 somethings, and one time a 26 year old with heart disease getting cath'd. The MD's linked these to steroid use, after ruling out everything else.

[Knights Baseball]

I think the wrestler thing doesn't scare kids because they often do not tell what happened. The wwe usually says that they past away in their hotel room or where ever and then go into a tribute. There have been a few wrestlers that have passed away from heart attacks that prob were genetically predisposed, but if you look, the guys that were completely jacked often dont make it past upper thirties lower forties. And one thing about steriods that most do not know is once you get off them, you drop the muscle you gained almost instantly, so you have to continue to take them. I looked at a profile for steriods during a report once and the guy that wrote them said that D-bol had a special place in his heart because that was the only steriod he had ever taken that allowed him to keep half of what he gained. So the very best steriod only allows you to keep have the muscle gains and strength gains you make if you stop taking them.

[korp]

I watched the documentary Bigger, Stronger, Faster last night and it is very interesting. It chronicles a family of three boys all of whom have dabbled in roids and two of whom are doing it into their thirties. One is a power-lifter and another who is a wrestler wanna-be. I highly recommend it to anyone with even a passing interest in the steroid debate.

Just to let you know....steroids ranked 142 among drug related emergency room visits, behind such things as aspirin, alcohol, and cocaine, or course, and all the sudafed realted products!

Among drug related deaths per year in the Unbited States, in the year quoted in the film tobacco was over 400,000, alcohol in the upper tens of thousands and steroids....3. So the idea of banning 'roids because it will "kill you" is kind of silly.

Tom
The steroids themselves aren't necessarily the major problem ... its the mood swings they can cause especially when coming off of them.

[Knights Baseball]

Even the guys that advocated the " if you don't abuse them, they will not hurt you" explanation are finding out that steriods are really bad. Abusing them will hurt you quicker, but taking smaller doses for 10 to 15 years can't be good for you either. Look at Jose. He said he didn't abuse them ,or so he says, and now he is getting hormone replacement therapy. Also, one of the biggest steriod experts there was in europe, where doping all started, claimed he knew almost everything about steriods from how to make them to how to take them. Claimed he had taken them for years and let his son take them at a young age. He just recently died of a heart attck.

[tominct]

I think the wrestler thing doesn't scare kids because they often do not tell what happened. The wwe usually says that they past away in their hotel room or where ever and then go into a tribute. There have been a few wrestlers that have passed away from heart attacks that prob were genetically predisposed, but if you look, the guys that were completely jacked often dont make it past upper thirties lower forties. And one thing about steriods that most do not know is once you get off them, you drop the muscle you gained almost instantly, so you have to continue to take them. I looked at a profile for steriods during a report once and the guy that wrote them said that D-bol had a special place in his heart because that was the only steriod he had ever taken that allowed him to keep half of what he gained. So the very best steriod only allows you to keep have the muscle gains and strength gains you make if you stop taking them.

I knew Quick-Draw Rick mcGraw (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu6sBfltJxMUAlhtXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEyaGJ1bjR kBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA0RGRDVfOTM-/SIG=11sr6ppii/EXP=1230819201/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_McGraw)a bit, he died of a heart attack back in 1985. He's listed at 5'7 on wikipedia, but he was closer to 5'4 I would guess, and he was 250 or so. That mass is a huge risk factor for heart disease, and it is well documented that steroids are probably the least dangerous drug many of these "athletes" ingest on a regular basis. Speed, coke, painkillers are far more dangerous to the hear particularly.

And no....one does not lose 'all thier muscle gains immediately. thta's hogwash, and betrays an ignorance of steroids and their effects...that's why there are "Natural" Bodybuilding competitions, and "Lifetime Natural" bodybuilding competitions. One who has cycled does not lose all of his (or her) gains. Consider it like a balloon that's been stretched, versus a brand new one. Once the balloon has been stretched, it will fill up larger than the brand new one when refilled (remember...one must keep training...or like all of us, they will get out of shape) So it is with muscles that once were enhnaced with sterioids versus those that have not and are not so enhanced.


Look...no one WANTS to take steroids and certianly NO ONE, including myself, WANTS their kids to take them, but the facts are that those of you who say steroids do this or that, or these people died because of this, and jacked people don't live past 50 becasue of steroids, blah blah blah, don't know what you are talking about.

For instance, the father of the kid in Plano TX, testified in front of the sentae comittee, that the kid killed himself because of steroids is also delusional. This kid was on Lexapro, a drug that is known(through scientific documentation) to be linked to suicides, however no one is going after the makers of anti-depressants, which kill far more people than steroids do.

I just wish people would stop making knee-jerk judgments based on innuendo and emotion. The idea that we want a level playing field is laughable. How righteously indiginant we get..."CHEATERS!" Boo-hoo-hoo. Get over it.

I saw Nomar Garciaparra play Double A ball in New Haven when he was with Trenton back in the day, and he was like 170 pounds. I said to mysef, "this kid is supposed to be the next great Sox player...gimme a break, he'll never make it, he's a twig." Two years later he's a buck-95 hitting thirty dingers...a few years later he was making millions. But he was supposed to say, "Uh, no thanks, I can't do steroids, that would be cheating, I guess I'll go get a job with UPS." And yes, I believe he used them, or HGH, along with just about any other player you can name.


Please.

[ssarge]

The idea that we want a level playing field is laughable.

I'm sorry you dismiss my position so easily. I think I understand you to be saying that the paying public doesn't really care what these guys do - they just want to see them be stars.

And that is right, so far as it goes.


But I DO want a level playing field.

I have a kid playing in college. Happens to be female, so it's less of an issue (although not a NON-issue). Regardless, it is NOT a decision a kid in college or the minors should have to make. Namely, do I use supplements, or do I dramatically diminish my opportunity to atain my goal? NO one should have to be in a position where he has to break the law and risk his health just to realistically compete. And as a parent, I'm not even sure what I'd tell my kid in that position.

As a matter of fact, I have a family member who is projected as a reasonably high baseball draft pick this spring. Not sure what I'd tell HIM, and I'm glad it hasn't come up.

And frankly, I feel some self-loathing because I am NOT sure.



"How righteously indiginant we get...'CHEATERS!'"

Entirely different issue, and doesn't happen to be mine. In fact, I thought it was ridiculous that Bonds and a couple of others were singled out. Admittedly, in Bonds's case, it had more to do with him being an ass than with him actually using. In that sense, it was deserved (and I live in the Bay Area where he largely got a pass).

But there was also a sense of the public wanting a couple of individuals to blame so the whole thing could then be forgotten. That would have been OK (I guess) if it weren't for the fact that over half the league was juicing (and probably still is). And I sense this is probably your point as well?


But I think you HAVE to distinguish the point about "cheating" from the issue of what kids feel they have to do - or in all liklihood, ACTUALLY have to do - to compete. Or even to put themselves in a position to compete. Which is namely to level the playing field.

Regards,

Scott

[Knights Baseball]

I don't think we are talking about the same person. The guy i am talkin about was on the Science channel not too many years ago. I'll try to find out. I also didn't say you lose all your gains instanly, i said alomst instantly. I also said that a guy taking D-bol said that he kept about half of what he gained after he quit taking it. I think he gained 30 and kept like 14 or 13 pounds. That is no small amount, 13 pounds of muscle is a huge gain. Prob depends on how your genetics are, how hard you work to keep the muscle after you quit, etc. And i am sure that some steriods are better for building muscle and strength than others. I also know that some steriods are considered so safe that doctors prescibe them for childern with growth problems. I would have to look it up, but i believe that anavar is the one that docs use for kids. If they ever do studies that say that steriods are safe or not that dangerous, then i will be the first to say go ahead and take them. But there has got to be a correlation between steriods and many serious problems. I don't know the exact science. Maybe the steriods cause the problems, maybe they just show problems that would have happened anyway. I dont know, but until their are somme studies done, i could not tell anyone that steriods are alright.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Muscular Enhancement Supplements: Creatine, HMB, Gluatamine and BCAAs (http://www.consumerlab.com/reviews/Muscular_Enhancement_Supplements-Creatine_HMB_Gluatamine_and_BCAAs/creatine/)

[handyman11]

I agree with Ssarge about the level playing field being important .... if I had equal talent , work ethic , makeup , etc . to a host of other players , whether it's AAA baseball or NFL football , or any other level of the game .. and lost out because I refused to do something that may hurt me down the road , physically and/or mentally , and is also illegal , I would'nt be happy , whether it's a real world learning experience or not ....

Some MLB players would have been great players with or without the juice .....some were there in the big leagues just because of it ....and some never got there because they did'nt go for it ( in my opinion ) ...

[korp]

Some MLB players would have been great players with or without the juice .....some were there in the big leagues just because of it ....and some never got there because they did'nt go for it ( in my opinion ) ...

Pretty much sums it up. The line of who can make the majors and who can't is far less obvious if these substances aren't around.

[LAball]

So all you little league dad reading BBF 101 to improve Jr's swing to get him into HS and later D1 college migt wana think twice, cuz from the posts above ......

it looks like steroids are going to be very very inticing for Jr. Is that what you want for your son? What should we do about it? (write your congressmen?) Might creatine be a gateway for stronger more powerful suppliments?

[Jon Doyle]

Great and interesting discussion.

Sounds as if Jon is very knowledgable and from a place of real visibility in the scene. I appreciate the insight.

Jon: Is a combination of Creatine and HGH pretty powerful? I'm guessing yes for strength / size; less so for recovery. But from a pro baseball perspective, ZERO chance of getting caught on the HGH, right? (I seem to recall it requires a blood test to detect, and the blood test is not allowed under the CBA?)
Is HGH and creatine very powerful? Sure, but mainly due to the HGH. And its much better for recovery than size and strength. HGH is not a size and strength compound, its a recovery and rejuvenation compound. This is why its so popular with pro athletes. That, and right now, you simply cannot be caught. There is no test.

With that said, if MLB really wanted to crack down they could. They would need to re-do the CBA, but they simply could collect blood and store it. With the promise it would be tested when a relaible HGH test is in place (testers are close). Blood can be preserved for years so the players would understand that years down the line, their reputation can be tarnished forever. Thats a pretty big deterant.

[Jon Doyle]

I agree. With the advent of the Internet and the ability to browse "the usual suspects" (bb.com, tn.com, st.com - abbreviating since I don't want to link them) and "reputable" underground labs that people are touting (ALN, mostly), kids are finding out about this stuff earlier and earlier. Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with freedom of information - and I support this kind of research to get informed about the dangers of the various types of steroids. Simply telling kids that "steroids are bad" or "your joints will get screwed up" or other things about their...well, private parts...isn't going to stop them from looking into it.

Learning all you can about proper nutrition, exercise science, and supplements (legal, illegal, and questionable) is a must if you're a sports coach, IMO. At the beginning of the year when I have the freshman meeting, I'll be sure to cover this topic and let them know that I have an "open door policy" with guarantees of anonymity if they want to come to me with any questions.
This is the best advice in this thread. Get educated. While most info floating around message boards should be ignored, knowledge is key here. Starting in HS, I began learning eveyrthing there is to know about PED's.

Listen, telling kids not to do something doesn't work. Geting congress involved doesn't work. Stupid commercials against steroid use doesn't work. All the media and congress attention has done is gotten more youths using performance enhancing drugs than ever before. Why anoyong thinks "Just say no because I said so" would work with a kid is beyond me.

They need a reason not to use. Whatever that may be, find it for your kid. I was around teammates using PED's since early on in high school. The tempetation was always there. When you see kids improving rapidly, you want in. They are so easy to get its rediculous. And the more the gov tries to crack down, the more is floating around the black market.

Why didn't I use when virtualy everyone around me (including guys who are now in the bigs)? Because I was worried if I got caught my dad would never be able to look at me the same again. He would be completely ashamed of me. He was so proud that I even made it to college baseball on my own hard work and determination, I just couldn't do it. Would it have helped my stats? Of course. But I wouldn't change a thing.

[kylebee]

Why didn't I use when virtualy everyone around me (including guys who are now in the bigs)? Because I was worried if I got caught my dad would never be able to look at me the same again. He would be completely ashamed of me. He was so proud that I even made it to college baseball on my own hard work and determination, I just couldn't do it. Would it have helped my stats? Of course. But I wouldn't change a thing.

Very well said, Jon. Getting your kids to buy into a moral code of ethics and taking responsibility for themselves is very important.

[omg]

.

Why didn't I use when virtualy everyone around me (including guys who are now in the bigs)? Because I was worried if I got caught my dad would never be able to look at me the same again. He would be completely ashamed of me. He was so proud that I even made it to college baseball on my own hard work and determination, I just couldn't do it. Would it have helped my stats? Of course. But I wouldn't change a thing.

Amazing.Most good people in your shoes, as you pointed out, would have rationalized and "used" anyways. I tip my cap to you and Cal Ripken and .....well, you and Cal.

I'm curious about those mid-level pro-hormone drugs which are not illegal and not banned. What are your thoughts on these?

[kylebee]

Amazing.Most good people in your shoes, as you pointed out, would have rationalized and "used" anyways. I tip my cap to you and Cal Ripken and .....well, you and Cal.

I'm curious about those mid-level pro-hormone drugs which are not illegal and not banned. What are your thoughts on these?

I take fish oil, a multivitamin, protein shakes, and strong coffee as my supplements. :)

However, the benefits of cutting-edge technology (the former lead scientist of BALCO runs a successful supplement company) cannot be denied. Much of it is actually quite safe and produces little gyno side effects. Personally, I don't care if people use steroids or other PEDs, and that includes professional baseball players. MLB turned a blind eye to them for decades before suddenly complaining when it was politically correct to do so.

As far as kids go, I just try to instill in them a code of ethics and responsibility. Using prohormones and other supplements can only get you so far, and it shows the most benefit to people who are seriously dedicated to their craft. Most people using these compounds have serious leaks in their training or their diet, so it's just a poor shortcut. As they say, food is the best supplement. :) I make sure that the kids know this first and foremost.

[omg]

I take fish oil, a multivitamin, protein shakes, and strong coffee as my supplements. :)

However, the benefits of cutting-edge technology (the former lead scientist of BALCO runs a successful supplement company) cannot be denied. Much of it is actually quite safe and produces little gyno side effects. Personally, I don't care if people use steroids or other PEDs, and that includes professional baseball players. MLB turned a blind eye to them for decades before suddenly complaining when it was politically correct to do so.

As far as kids go, I just try to instill in them a code of ethics and responsibility. Using prohormones and other supplements can only get you so far, and it shows the most benefit to people who are seriously dedicated to their craft. Most people using these compounds have serious leaks in their training or their diet, so it's just a poor shortcut. As they say, food is the best supplement. :) I make sure that the kids know this first and foremost.

So you think pro-hormones are OK?

[kylebee]

So you think pro-hormones are OK?

It depends on what you mean by "OK." Do I think they are fine for professionals? Sure, I guess. As long as it is legal. But my beef is with MLB's hypocritical approach to PEDs, not with the athletes who use them.

There is an obvious incentive to take PEDs to become faster, stronger, and have shorter recovery time than the next guy in line - professional baseball is a dream for almost every young kid who picked up a bat and at the highest levels, it pays very well. Until they remove that incentive (never), we will continue to see it.

[omg]

It depends on what you mean by "OK." Do I think they are fine for professionals? Sure, I guess. As long as it is legal. But my beef is with MLB's hypocritical approach to PEDs, not with the athletes who use them.

There is an obvious incentive to take PEDs to become faster, stronger, and have shorter recovery time than the next guy in line - professional baseball is a dream for almost every young kid who picked up a bat and at the highest levels, it pays very well. Until they remove that incentive (never), we will continue to see it.

But for hs and college-no? I don't necessarily agree that it is JUST about money. People want to be damn good at stuff-period. Even if it is just for prestige in a small pond.

[tominct]

So all you little league dad reading BBF 101 to improve Jr's swing to get him into HS and later D1 college migt wana think twice, cuz from the posts above ......

it looks like steroids are going to be very very inticing for Jr. Is that what you want for your son? What should we do about it? (write your congressmen?) Might creatine be a gateway for stronger more powerful suppliments?

Very good point, and yes, we all need to think about it...

Where I coach, we are told explicitly, CREATINE IS A NO-NO, we are NOT to discuss it with our players. PERIOD>

Tom

[tominct]

Amazing.Most good people in your shoes, as you pointed out, would have rationalized and "used" anyways. I tip my cap to you and Cal Ripken and .....well, you and Cal.

I'm curious about those mid-level pro-hormone drugs which are not illegal and not banned. What are your thoughts on these?

Why Cal Ripken? What's so special about him? Did he say he never used, or are you just assuming that? Watch it, you know what they say about assuming....and remember, Raffy Palmiero shook his finger at the US Senate and insisted he never used either.

Personally, I don't believe any of them that say they didn't use.


Tom

[tominct]

But for hs and college-no? I don't necessarily agree that it is JUST about money. People want to be damn good at stuff-period. Even if it is just for prestige in a small pond.

Even if you are talking about DI money in scholarships (which is not that much unless you're a football player or hoopster) then it's still about money, and all the other stuff that goes with being a college athlete.
The deal is this, until coaches (college and HS) start sitting kids they suspect of using, of suspending them, as opposed to tacitly encouraging them (here in CT a few years ago, the football coach went on a vacation to Mexico with the families of a few of his players...some of the kids came back with roids they bought while they were there...on vacation, WITH THE FOOTBALL COACH!) A number of the kids got scholarships to play DI lacross I think. The coach was not fired, or even reprimanded if my memory serves me correctly. And he is still a coach, generally well respected. Of course, he had "no knowledge" of what the kids were doing. Well, in my book when they show up 25 pounds heavier in August than they were in June he might have figured something out, but who am I to say!

Tom

[omg]

Why Cal Ripken? What's so special about him? Did he say he never used, or are you just assuming that? Watch it, you know what they say about assuming....and remember, Raffy Palmiero shook his finger at the US Senate and insisted he never used either.

Personally, I don't believe any of them that say they didn't use.


Tom

Just using Cal as a metaphor. I agree with you in that many who say they don't use actually do.

Some deny using drugs but when it is revealed they smoke marijuana their reply is "weed ain't drugs."

Some say the same about sex but then reply "oral sex ain't sex."

I think players do the same with HGH. Since it is only for recovery they rationalize it is like ice or advil or cortisone. Clemens was like this in his testimony.

I don't fault them I'm just explaining the phenomena.