What happened to fundamental baseball????

[NY16CATCHER]

Had dinner last night with a good friend and former college teammate of mine, who took over as head coach of a DIII program this past fall and we were talking about his team, etc. and he got on the subject of the incoming freshman he has (he didn't recruit them, the former coach did before he had to suddenly retire due to a medical problem) and their lack of fundamentals.

In talking with other DIII coaches in his conference at a conference meeting he learned he wasn't alone in wondering what was happening to fundamental baseball. For example, bunting. Of 11 incoming freshman, he had 3 guys he was comfortable with in terms of asking them to put down a bunt in an actual game from what he saw in the fall. And the most shocking part, he had 2 kids admit to him they had never been so much as instructed on the proper way to bunt in their entire life up to that point. What the hell. Now granted, both of these kids were power hitters and I am sure they probably batted in the 3 or 4 slot since they were about 12, but how the hell do you not know how to bunt????

And then there is hitting. Dear god, we as a group of coaches, parents, gurus, and other assorted sorts are just ruining kids with over technical bull**ap. Rotational. Linear. PCR. He's got incoming freshman with DVD's they watch religously in their laptops, note books, drills, personal swing coaches, etc. They can't take a dump without some sort of technical analysis of how they pull the toilet paper down and is it linear because they pull straight down or is it rotational because the roll rotates on the hanger. And half of them can't explain anything about why they are doing what they are or how they are supposed to be doing what it is they are doing. They've all got a different word or description for the what amounts to the same thing, but if you as a coach don't speak in their terminology, you might as well be talking to a wall.

What happened to good solid fundamental baseball?

[THop]

Great post coach!

In my opinion, as coaches (educators) we really fail our youth to high school players. Care to elaborate on some more “ex” fundamentals and share why a kid shouldn’t wait until his freshman year of college to master these?

Hitting
Hit outside strikes hard the other way
Hit and run play
Hit behind lone 2b runner w/ no outs
Two strike swing/approach

Base running
Anticipate and start on your own. Base coaches only STOP you.
Read pitch in the dirt Secondary leads
One-way lead
Two out lead
First move stealing
Delayed steal
Stand up slide
Back door slide
Read ground ball in front of and behind you at 2b
On deck batter coaching scoring runners

Pitchers
When to Cover 1st
When to back up 3b/home
When to back up 1st

Infielders
How (and when) to play on the BACK edge of the grass
How to back hand
How to charge, field and throw off their right foot (non glove foot) on the run
How to pick (scoop) balls in the dirt
Sliding after the catch to avoid collisions
Why middle infielders cover 1st and 3rd on outfield throws to the plate

Outfielders
Taking direct angles to where you will field the ball
Read slice and hook spins
Charging grounders
Charging low line drives
Which outfielder shades in 5 steps with 2 strikes
Don’t crow hop or throw to 2nd man in tandem relay
Sliding after the catch to avoid collisions
Legal decoys

[new2thesport]

Don’t crow hop or throw to 2nd man in tandem relay


Howcome? (why?)




NY16CATCHER,

That was great! Thanks for the good chuckle!:laugh

[beemax]

Good post.

IMO the metal bat is a big reason why fundamentals have become secondary in today's game. Kids who don't have the strength to carry a wood bat can be decent hitters with a metal bat and let the fundamentals of hitting go by the wayside because of it.

Then you take the same kid who can hit 5 or 10 home runs in a season with metal, put wood in his hands, and all of a sudden he has no pop. no he has never bunted, done a hit and run, or moved a guy over, and you have to start from square one.

I will have to disagree with you on the mechanical breakdown aspect of the swing, though. IMO too many instructors simply state what they have heard before in the same vernacular over and over to mask what they do not truly understand.

I like to look at golf, for an example. It is an individual sport, but when you are hitting, that is a very individual task. Almost 100% of pro golfers have swing coaches, guys who break it down on video piece by piece and know what they are doing. IMO baseball is way behind when it comes to this but it is getting better.

I think we need to break down the swing more to understand what is really going on. If the coach and the hitter gain a better understanding of what is going on during the swing I see no disadvantage in that.

[callyjr]

I think we need to break down the swing more to understand what is really going on. If the coach and the hitter gain a better understanding of what is going on during the swing I see no disadvantage in that.

Is that what they do in the Dominican? Don't get me wrong, I like to show a kid his flaws as much as the next guy, but really?

[THop]

New2thesport,

In my opinion, in college and professional baseball the 3b coach will always make his initial decision for the base runners, based on “when” the ball is thrown. A crow hop can take 2-3 seconds which is about how long it takes a sprinting runner to take another 30-60 feet.

If the throw misses the 1st guy, the batter/runner will have to stop at 3b. If it misses the 2nd guy, he could score.

Hope this helps,

THop

[beemax]

Is that what they do in the Dominican? Don't get me wrong, I like to show a kid his flaws as much as the next guy, but really?

Huh?

All is said was there is no disadvantage in the hitter and coach gaining a better understanding of the swing...Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Venezuelans, Columbians, Japanese, Koreans, Taiwanese, Panamanians, Nicaraguans, Australians, Mexicans, Canadians, and Americans included.

There are a lot of players who have gotten by on God-given talent and just did it right because they were blessed to do so without instruction. I envy them, as do a lot I'm sure, but what's wrong with gaining more understanding of what is really going on in the swing? That was my main point.

[Knights Baseball]

I think that a play should throw through the first guy, this gives the players a chance to strengthen their arm and there is not chance of over throw. Ball gets there a lot quicker, unless it hits a lip in the grass.

[omg]

Had dinner last night with a good friend and former college teammate of mine, who took over as head coach of a DIII program this past fall and we were talking about his team, etc. and he got on the subject of the incoming freshman he has (he didn't recruit them, the former coach did before he had to suddenly retire due to a medical problem) and their lack of fundamentals.

In talking with other DIII coaches in his conference at a conference meeting he learned he wasn't alone in wondering what was happening to fundamental baseball.

I think your buddy is doing a little typical venting which is very common. He needs to eliminate this type of thinking completely otherwise it is too easy to fall back on the previous coaches bad coaching excuse as a crutch. I bet coaches in 10u ball complain about how bad those 8u coaches are as well. Since much of his recruiting and labelling of his program is of a "grapevine" nature then I would not be saying anything to denigrate his kids or hs coaches.

[Jake Patterson]

Had dinner last night with a good friend and former college teammate of mine, who took over as head coach of a DIII program this past fall and we were talking about his team, etc. and he got on the subject of the incoming freshman he has (he didn't recruit them, the former coach did before he had to suddenly retire due to a medical problem) and their lack of fundamentals.

In talking with other DIII coaches in his conference at a conference meeting he learned he wasn't alone in wondering what was happening to fundamental baseball. For example, bunting. Of 11 incoming freshman, he had 3 guys he was comfortable with in terms of asking them to put down a bunt in an actual game from what he saw in the fall. And the most shocking part, he had 2 kids admit to him they had never been so much as instructed on the proper way to bunt in their entire life up to that point. What the hell. Now granted, both of these kids were power hitters and I am sure they probably batted in the 3 or 4 slot since they were about 12, but how the hell do you not know how to bunt????

And then there is hitting. Dear god, we as a group of coaches, parents, gurus, and other assorted sorts are just ruining kids with over technical bull**ap. Rotational. Linear. PCR. He's got incoming freshman with DVD's they watch religously in their laptops, note books, drills, personal swing coaches, etc. They can't take a dump without some sort of technical analysis of how they pull the toilet paper down and is it linear because they pull straight down or is it rotational because the roll rotates on the hanger. And half of them can't explain anything about why they are doing what they are or how they are supposed to be doing what it is they are doing. They've all got a different word or description for the what amounts to the same thing, but if you as a coach don't speak in their terminology, you might as well be talking to a wall.

What happened to good solid fundamental baseball?
While I agree with much of what you say I have to place this in the "The older I get the better I was." file. Having been around the game for 40 or so years, I have heard this from every generation. The difference today is technology has allowed us to better understand the game and made instruction available to all. Teaching "fundementals" is an individual coach problem. I teach bunting, stealing, base running and all the other things taht were taught years ago, and I see others do the same. Again, I believe much of this is the ole, "The older I get the better I was."

[NY16CATCHER]

I think your buddy is doing a little typical venting which is very common. He needs to eliminate this type of thinking completely otherwise it is too easy to fall back on the previous coaches bad coaching excuse as a crutch. I bet coaches in 10u ball complain about how bad those 8u coaches are as well. Since much of his recruiting and labelling of his program is of a "grapevine" nature then I would not be saying anything to denigrate his kids or hs coaches.

Trust me when I say this, he's not "blaming" the previous coach. This program has had a fair amount of success and the former coach was there for over 20 years. He's talked to the previous coach about it, other coaches, friends, etc. It's something we are all seeing, across amateur ball at many age levels.

He'll have success, his team will do fine, he's a talented communicator and a knowledgable baseball person.

[GetYourBestSwing]

There also DIII players for a reason.

At that level you should expect to do some work in regards to fundamentals and teaching.

You also kind of answered your own question by stating that a couple of the guys were power hitters and probably never asked to bunt or work on bunting.

[omg]

Great post coach!

In my opinion, as coaches (educators) we really fail our youth to high school players. Care to elaborate on some more “ex” fundamentals and share why a kid shouldn’t wait until his freshman year of college to master these?

Hitting
Hit outside strikes hard the other way
Hit and run play
Hit behind lone 2b runner w/ no outs
Two strike swing/approach

Base running
Anticipate and start on your own. Base coaches only STOP you.
Read pitch in the dirt Secondary leads
One-way lead
Two out lead
First move stealing
Delayed steal
Stand up slide
Back door slide
Read ground ball in front of and behind you at 2b
On deck batter coaching scoring runners

Pitchers
When to Cover 1st
When to back up 3b/home
When to back up 1st

Infielders
How (and when) to play on the BACK edge of the grass
How to back hand
How to charge, field and throw off their right foot (non glove foot) on the run
How to pick (scoop) balls in the dirt
Sliding after the catch to avoid collisions
Why middle infielders cover 1st and 3rd on outfield throws to the plate

Outfielders
Taking direct angles to where you will field the ball
Read slice and hook spins
Charging grounders
Charging low line drives
Which outfielder shades in 5 steps with 2 strikes
Don’t crow hop or throw to 2nd man in tandem relay
Sliding after the catch to avoid collisions
Legal decoys

I think each coach should prioritize like this depending on the age and speed of their league.

[Jake Patterson]

There also DIII players for a reason.
It could be academics.

[GetYourBestSwing]

It could be academics.

DIII programs are usually high academic schools.

You would go NAIA or DII, or JUCO because of poor grades....

DIII doesn't usually if ever get those type of players that are really good but don't hack it academically.

[omg]

Trust me when I say this, he's not "blaming" the previous coach. This program has had a fair amount of success and the former coach was there for over 20 years. He's talked to the previous coach about it, other coaches, friends, etc. It's something we are all seeing, across amateur ball at many age levels.

He'll have success, his team will do fine, he's a talented communicator and a knowledgable baseball person.

I'm sure he is. As JP points out, there is a lot of this lamenting going on and I've done more than my fair share. When I hear coaches say things about their kids (usually far worse than what your buddy said but along the same lines) it just makes a coach look bad.

[Jake Patterson]

You would go NAIA or DII, or JUCO because of poor grades.... If this is a question then the answer is yes - absolutely. Many go to junior colleges or DII because they do not have the grades for high level DI schools.

[omg]

There also DIII players for a reason.



Why would incoming D3 players be less fundamentally sound than ,say, D1 players?

[GetYourBestSwing]

If this is a question then the answer is yes - absolutely. Many go to junior colleges or DII because they do not have the grades for high level DI schools.


lol sorry, it wasnt a question.


Players don't go to DIII schools because of academics.... DIII schools are usually fairly hard to get into in fact and quite pricey.

[Jake Patterson]

... DIII schools are usually fairly hard to get into in fact and quite pricey. While some are (Bryant University comes to mind) - most JUCOS are not. I believe - could be wrong -that most JUCOS cost less than say, Princeton, LSU, Stamford, UCONN, etc...

[HYP]

DIII programs are usually high academic schools.

You would go NAIA or DII, or JUCO because of poor grades....

DIII doesn't usually if ever get those type of players that are really good but don't hack it academically.

Don't understand this way of thinking.

My son is a sophmore in Pre Cal and will take other honors classes. Will most likely graduate with a 4.0 or higher and is most likely going to a NAIA school. Hopefully Concordia of Irvine.

The reason players go to NAIA schools is mostly because they want to continue playing baseball. My sons grades can get him in a D1 school but right now he couldn't play D1 baseball. Perhaps he can still play in the NAIA because right now that is what he wants and he will still get an incredible education.

HYP

[shake-n-bake]

Great post coach!

In my opinion, as coaches (educators) we really fail our youth to high school players. Care to elaborate on some more “ex” fundamentals and share why a kid shouldn’t wait until his freshman year of college to master these?

Hitting
Hit outside strikes hard the other way
Hit and run play
Hit behind lone 2b runner w/ no outs
Two strike swing/approach

Base running
Anticipate and start on your own. Base coaches only STOP you.
Read pitch in the dirt Secondary leads
One-way lead
Two out lead
First move stealing
Delayed steal
Stand up slide
Back door slide
Read ground ball in front of and behind you at 2b
On deck batter coaching scoring runners

Pitchers
When to Cover 1st
When to back up 3b/home
When to back up 1st

Infielders
How (and when) to play on the BACK edge of the grass
How to back hand
How to charge, field and throw off their right foot (non glove foot) on the run
How to pick (scoop) balls in the dirt
Sliding after the catch to avoid collisions
Why middle infielders cover 1st and 3rd on outfield throws to the plate

Outfielders
Taking direct angles to where you will field the ball
Read slice and hook spins
Charging grounders
Charging low line drives
Which outfielder shades in 5 steps with 2 strikes
Don’t crow hop or throw to 2nd man in tandem relay
Sliding after the catch to avoid collisions
Legal decoys


I agree. This is a great topic. THop, I'm going to use this list to evaluate and develop the fundamentals of the kids I work with this year.

What do you guys think about instincts? Is there a deterioration of baseball IQ? Are the expectations less than what they once were? My son made a heads up play that decoyed a baserunner to stop at 2B. His coach was calling it a trick play, like something from the Harlem Globetrotters, and asked him how he thought to do that.

My theory is that kids, maybe their parents and youth coaches as well, underappreciate and sometimes don't understand just how little difference there is between winning and losing in a competitive game. There's a lot of desire to be the hero, to get the big hit, the web-gem, throw the overpowering game, etc. Too caught up in stats and not enough getting excited about what doesn't show up in the box score. That is until they get to a level where how you win is less important than winning itself.

Pretty rare to find a kid that who got some hits and RBIs, pitched a gem, but at the end of the game will be most proud of the productive out that eventually led to an important run, or a good AB that made an opposing pitcher work, or hugging the infield side of the 1B line to make a nubber in front of the plate a tough play - maybe inducing a throwing error, or checked the lead runner back and that runner ends up stranded, etc.

[Jake Patterson]

What do you guys think about instincts? Is there a deterioration of baseball IQ? No
Are the expectations less than what they once were? No, I believe in most cases they are more.
Too caught up in stats and not enough getting excited about what doesn't show up in the box score. That is until they get to a level where how you win is less important than winning itself. This is an age old problem with the game.
Pretty rare to find a kid that who got some hits and RBIs, pitched a gem, but at the end of the game will be most proud of the productive out that eventually led to an important run, or a good AB that made an opposing pitcher work, or hugging the infield side of the 1B line to make a nubber in front of the plate a tough play - maybe inducing a throwing error, or checked the lead runner back and that runner ends up stranded, etc.They exist.

[dominik]

I think it also reflects on pro ball. In the MLB you see many of those "HR or out" type of hitters. Everyone focusses on power. Tactical play is not shown very often, you try to outslug the opponent. There are many teams who focus on home runs for producing scores like the white sox or the yankees for example.

I was very pleased to see the rays in the WS this year. The have a speedy, tricky play and are just attractive to watch. I loved the suicide play they used and their active baserunning.

While I acknowledge that power is important, I prefer seeing players like Longoria or Upton any time over fatties who just try to hit it over.

[Jake Patterson]

Great post coach!

In my opinion, as coaches (educators) we really fail our youth to high school players. Care to elaborate on some more “ex” fundamentals and share why a kid shouldn’t wait until his freshman year of college to master these?

Hitting
Hit outside strikes hard the other way
Hit and run play
Hit behind lone 2b runner w/ no outs
Two strike swing/approach

Base running
Anticipate and start on your own. Base coaches only STOP you.
Read pitch in the dirt Secondary leads
One-way lead
Two out lead
First move stealing
Delayed steal
Stand up slide
Back door slide
Read ground ball in front of and behind you at 2b
On deck batter coaching scoring runners

Pitchers
When to Cover 1st
When to back up 3b/home
When to back up 1st

Infielders
How (and when) to play on the BACK edge of the grass
How to back hand
How to charge, field and throw off their right foot (non glove foot) on the run
How to pick (scoop) balls in the dirt
Sliding after the catch to avoid collisions
Why middle infielders cover 1st and 3rd on outfield throws to the plate

Outfielders
Taking direct angles to where you will field the ball
Read slice and hook spins
Charging grounders
Charging low line drives
Which outfielder shades in 5 steps with 2 strikes
Don’t crow hop or throw to 2nd man in tandem relay
Sliding after the catch to avoid collisions
Legal decoysI feel this is an individual problem. There is nothing on this list that I, or most decent HS coaches would not teach.

Based on what I know of the HS coaches who participate here I have to believe these are basic fundemental items that they all would teach.

[GetYourBestSwing]

Don't understand this way of thinking.

My son is a sophmore in Pre Cal and will take other honors classes. Will most likely graduate with a 4.0 or higher and is most likely going to a NAIA school. Hopefully Concordia of Irvine.

The reason players go to NAIA schools is mostly because they want to continue playing baseball. My sons grades can get him in a D1 school but right now he couldn't play D1 baseball. Perhaps he can still play in the NAIA because right now that is what he wants and he will still get an incredible education.

HYP




My point is that a player that is a D1 talent.... but can not make it because of grades.... is not going to go to a DIII school.

they would go to an NAIA school, a DII school, or a junior college.


I certainly did not mean that NAIA ball was for students with poor grades. I am just talking about a D1 level player that doesn't meet ncaa eligibility.

DIII is certainly not where a player like that would go.

[HYP]

My point is that a player that is a D1 talent.... but can not make it because of grades.... is not going to go to a DIII school.

they would go to an NAIA school, a DII school, or a junior college.


I certainly did not mean that NAIA ball was for students with poor grades. I am just talking about a D1 level player that doesn't meet ncaa eligibility.

DIII is certainly not where a player like that would go.

Thanks for the response

[GetYourBestSwing]

While some are (Bryant University comes to mind) - most JUCOS are not. I believe - could be wrong -that most JUCOS cost less than say, Princeton, LSU, Stamford, UCONN, etc...

DIII and JUCO are 2 seperate things.



DIII - 4 year schools.... that MOST are VERY pricey and have pretty high academic standards.

A D1 talent, or a fringe D1 talent that is poor academically..... is NOT going to go to a DIII school.
They are going to go to a JUCO to get eligible to go to a D1 school..... or maybe they CAN get into a NAIA school... or DII school.... and choose to do that to be playing at a 4 year school.


point being - DIII is not going to get D1 talented players because of poor grades.

[GetYourBestSwing]

Thanks for the response


there is darn good baseball played at the NAIA level.

I don't think people realize it until they actually go to a game at that level.

Congrats to your son.

[Jake Patterson]

DIII and JUCO are 2 seperate things.
I understand that- I have placed player in both. If you go to my initial response I said "It could be academics."

There are DIII schools that have lower requirements than many DI schools. There are JUCOs that have lower requirements than DI schools.
There are DIII that are very difficult to attend and are very pricey.
There are DII baseball programs that are very difficult to get a nod.

[Knights Baseball]

You are right, there is very good teams in NAIA. Lewis and Clark for example. Great program with great players and coaches.

[Knights Baseball]

Another problem I think is that some high schools hire people that know little to nothing about fundamental baseball. My high school coach, for example, is called one of the best coaches in SC. The problem is that our area has a ton of talent and we learn everything that we know before we get there. But because our team is extremely successful, he gets credit.

[TG Coach]

DIII programs are usually high academic schools.

You would go NAIA or DII, or JUCO because of poor grades....

DIII doesn't usually if ever get those type of players that are really good but don't hack it academically.

I see this on other boards. I'm not sure where this perception comes from. While there are some very high end academic D3 programs, there are also plenty of D3 state schools where anyone with a GED can get accepted. UC San Diego comes to mind right away as a D2 program. It's a hard school to get accepted.

[TG Coach]

Why would incoming D3 players be less fundamentally sound than ,say, D1 players?

D1 players will be profoundly more talented than D3 players. The best play at the D1 level. However, talent and fundamentals can be two different things. There are plenty of D1 players who were such studs in high school they were never asked to perform the basics (bunt, hit and run, etc.)

[Mark H]

Question about fundamental baseball/knowing the game/having a feel for the game. If one kid turns a certain age with say, a punch and judy put it in play swing but great fundamentals as discussed in this thread and another kid turns that age with great individual skills but a lack of said fundamentals, which one is a bigger project for a college coach to fix?

[THop]

Mark,

A college baseball coach is going to teach the “fundamentals” listed above (and many more). Kids who have heard and worked on these in middle and high school ball are going to be far “less” of a project for him.

Though none of the above “fundamentals” are rocket science, trying to learn 30 + during the fall of your freshmen year will affect your overall performance. I saw this occur each of the 8 years my sons played college baseball. And was very thankful for the scouts and college coaches that had tipped me off to their importance, years before.

http://www.baseball-excellence.com/sbaseballforums/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=1&Topic=7785&keywords=brick%20wall

THop

[omg]

Question about fundamental baseball/knowing the game/having a feel for the game. If one kid turns a certain age with say, a punch and judy put it in play swing but great fundamentals as discussed in this thread and another kid turns that age with great individual skills but a lack of said fundamentals, which one is a bigger project for a college coach to fix?

The coach would rather have the more talented. But some of these gifted kids never get the fundamentals, its just not in them.

[turnin2]

This is an awesome post. I think you have several contributors to the lack of fundamentals. One major one is look at the major league game, how many teams bunt? A few more employ the hit and run. Some individuals steal. But there are no Cardinals with Vince Coleman, Willie McGee, Ozzie Smith, a 100 RBI no HR Tommy Herr, its about mashing the ball!! Not long ago guys were power hitters with 30 homeruns, and 40 was a rare feat. But why has that changed?? Yes weights are a huge part, more guys are bigger,faster, and stronger than ever. But it my opinion, so much more time is spent on hitting. You have batting cages, a million machines, DVD's, personal instructors, and Webster could write a new dictionary with all new terms for hitting...its not about why you do things anymore, for lack of a better quote, its "Get'r done!"
We on my staff have had this discussion many times. I will tell you we have kids who have some of the worst fundamentals I have ever witnessed! Now, the real question is...why?? I cant' speak for everywhere, but we have too many people working in youth baseball that don't know what they are doing! Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate the time LL coaches spend with kids, but what should the purpose be? My thought is learn the game. I have two kids of my own that play, and I'll tell you I remember more times they made a mental error than I do "Homeruns" that went through three kids legs! I can't tell you how many times I've heard "Pull the ball, hit it with POWER, turn on it!" Problem is you get kids who can mash 1/3 on the plate, and get mashed on the other 2/3! Little league, how many kids throw inside? Not many. High School, I'd bet 65% of pitches, if not more, are on the outer third. How many kids really stroke it the other way well??
How often do you set time in practice to discuss why you do the things you do? Thats another problem. Its hard to have a "Classroom" session because there are so many other things you cover. Instead of working great baserunning reads (low balls in the dirt, poor footwork, missed cutoff men,) you have to work on defending the gimmic plays, where you try to "steal a run" , not execute and earn one! Also, with so many "instructors" the coach can end up explaining himself on why. When I was a kid, you did it, you didn't ask Why? But there are so many experts out there, they guy who went to college, has a degree, probably played while in school, etc, is the other guy.



Chicks dig the longball, right? We have developed a production chart. We don't give stats to the kids, they get their total production points. 1 pt for a bunt, 2 pts for aggressive baserunning, etc. Then we arrange BP to emphasize this, even scoring it in practice. Now this not only gives us a tool to evaluate, but show the kid what they are not getting done daily.


Coming off my soap box now. Surely don't mean to attack LL coaches, there are good ones out there, but I think the overall system has lost focus. JMHO

[Mark H]

Mark,

A college baseball coach is going to teach the “fundamentals” listed above (and many more). Kids who have heard and worked on these in middle and high school ball are going to be far “less” of a project for him.

Though none of the above “fundamentals” are rocket science, trying to learn 30 + during the fall of your freshmen year will affect your overall performance. I saw this occur each of the 8 years my sons played college baseball. And was very thankful for the scouts and college coaches that had tipped me off to their importance, years before.

http://www.baseball-excellence.com/sbaseballforums/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=1&Topic=7785&keywords=brick%20wall

THop

No doubt about the difficulty of teaching fundamentals to a bunch of kids that have no clue. The link you gave was, to me, an example of a kid who probably did NOT have a four to five frame swing. If you have that, you should be able to figure out movement pitches and changes of speed. But perhaps not that kid. In any case, which kid is farther behind the eight ball. The kid who can rake but doesn't have a clue about situational hitting, defensive strategies and base running or the kid who knows how to get an out on defense, knows how to run the bases, can move runners, always puts it in play but throws a party if he gets a double before the end of the season while hitting .250?

Maybe that's not a clear question. Do you want the next Manny minus the attitude or do you want the next Adam Everett? Which one does a coach have a better shot at turning into a complete player assuming reasonably close physical tools?

[Mark H]

But some of these gifted kids never get the fundamentals, its just not in them.

Is that more because they didn't have to when they were young and now the wiring it too set to change or is it just different mental gifts? Different kinds of intelligences.

[omg]

The biggest area I see problems is in base running instinct. Kids are used to just listening to their coach and don't develop instincts. There is no such thing as "pickup" baseball. Kids don't glance at the ball when they run.

[shake-n-bake]

Here's a couple things that I am seeing.

One is what I mentioned before - Too much desire to be the hero, too little appreciation for what doesn't show up in the box score. I see a lot of kids (and their parents) that don't see the need to continually increase the effort. To them being the accomplished 12U stud is making it.

Lack of understanding as to what and how much certain plays made and failed to be made impact the outcome of a game. And how little difference there is between winning and losing between teams that are competitive.

I've been noticing my son and one of his good friends starting to go down a different path. His friend isn't completely losing interest in baseball, but it's moving down his list of priorities. My son seems to be really enjoying being increasingly conversive as to breaking down and analyzing the game and exploring the games within the game. His friend is a bit more into girls, video games, myspace, X Games, keeping up with pop culture, things like that. Why? I think its the % of time with Dad. My son and I spend a lot of time together. Obviously, he doesn't want to talk girls with me yet (it's probably a good thing. I don't know that much anyway), or X Games. We talk a lot of sports.

[omg]

Is that more because they didn't have to when they were young and now the wiring it too set to change or is it just different mental gifts? Different kinds of intelligences.

Different mental gifts. They don't think about baseball until, for example, the ball gets hit to them or it is their turn to hit. Which is why a lot of these "types" become pitchers.

[turnin2]

truthfully, I'd take adam everett over manny, because in HS, I'll coach more Adam Everett types. Manny is rare, that's what makes him special. But a complete ballplayer...hardly. Shane Victorino, Carl Crawford, Derek Jeter, hanley Ramirez, those are complete players.


one thing I forgot to mention that we do that has helped, is when we hold our workshop for the little league, we provide a fundamental checklist, that is categorized for hitting, pitching, fielding, baserunning, throwing fundamentals/pitching guidelines...it has helped. We also encourage during our camps, even practice, for coaches to come out, listen, and learn.

[turnin2]

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8686003481/m/5091067013?r=8391019013#8391019013


this link is to a discussion on 1st and 3rd and the early/late break, how to defend it, etc. i threw in what I like to do with the bunt, and it seemingly went totally ignored. The question that came to me was this "are people willing to take a chance with luck running as opposed to playing fundamental baseball because the kids lack the skill to bunt?"

A thought from an earlier post on here, saying baserunning is a lost art, in all facets of the game, are we over coaching??

[Mark H]

truthfully, I'd take adam everett over manny, because in HS, I'll coach more Adam Everett types. Manny is rare, that's what makes him special. But a complete ballplayer...hardly. .

OK but in this theoretical exercise I'm trying to find out not only which one you'd take, but which one, assuming good attitudes for both, would be easier to develop a complete ball player out of-the kid who can rake but hasn't worked on or learned the rest of the game beyond hitting, catching and throwing or the Adam Everett type.

[THop]

Mark,

As a fan, I want Manny to seek Hall of Fame induction and see the need to learn everything Adam Everett learned to increase his chances.

As a coach, I want every 3 run homer Many can hit AND every run Everett can contribute to via advanced hitting and base running technique (at least until the game is out of hand).

THop

[PhilliesPhan22]

A crow hop can take 2-3 seconds which is about how long it takes a sprinting runner to take another 30-60 feet.



are they crow hopping in slow motion???

[Mark H]

Mark,

As a fan, I want Manny to seek Hall of Fame induction and see the need to learn everything Adam Everett learned to increase his chances.

As a coach, I want every 3 run homer Many can hit AND every run Everett can contribute to via advanced hitting and base running technique (at least until the game is out of hand).

THop

OK, you're going to take both and work on both. :) Good choice.

[TG Coach]

The biggest area I see problems is in base running instinct. Kids are used to just listening to their coach and don't develop instincts. There is no such thing as "pickup" baseball. Kids don't glance at the ball when they run.

Going all the way back to LL we had baserunning practice where I challenged the kids to get picked off. I wanted them to learn their limits. I tell players too often if they have to wait for the coach to tell them what to do, in that second the opportunity for the extra base is lost.

[omg]

Going all the way back to LL we had baserunning practice where I challenged the kids to get picked off. I wanted them to learn their limits. I tell players too often if they have to wait for the coach to tell them what to do, in that second the opportunity for the extra base is lost.

I've concluded that 1b coaches are counterproductive....and not needed.

[PhilliesPhan22]

I've concluded that 1b coaches are counterproductive....and not needed.

So Davy Lopes is useless? I think the Phillies high stolen base success rate says otherwise.

[omg]

So Davy Lopes is useless? I think the Phillies high stolen base success rate says otherwise.

No, Davey Lopes is not useless. Is he available? He can coach first for me. I'm just saying a first base coach generally is telling a runner what he should already know. Same w/3b coach. Base coaches are needed when a runner has their back to the ball or the play,in my opinion.

[GetYourBestSwing]

I've concluded that 1b coaches are counterproductive....and not needed.

Coaching 1B is very overrated.

Not even sure it should be called "coaching" 1B. lol

Any information that a 1B coach is going to give a runner could be shared in the dugout, during practice, whenever.... there's no top secret info being shared or secretly learned when the runner reaches 1B. lol

Lopes has a lot to do with a teams good baserunning but it's probably done more in extra-work sessions, conversations at anytime that don't have to happen during a game when he is standing in the 1B coaching box. lol

[shake-n-bake]

Going all the way back to LL we had baserunning practice where I challenged the kids to get picked off. I wanted them to learn their limits. I tell players too often if they have to wait for the coach to tell them what to do, in that second the opportunity for the extra base is lost.


So true. We all know that a lot of xtra base hits are had out of the batter's box and the turn at 1B. What's satisfying is to take a younger kid with average or even less than average speed and teach them to be [smart, but] opportunistic baserunners. I tell them, "so and so might be able to outrun you on the track, but you've got game speed." When they ask me what game speed is, I tell them that its knowing when to turn and burn while others turn and look.

[Jake Patterson]

I've concluded that 1b coaches are counterproductive....and not needed.I think not. First base coaches who do not know how to properly coach first base are useless.

[beemax]

I've concluded that 1b coaches are counterproductive....and not needed.

IMO a 1B coach can do you team a lot of good, and it doesn't just have to do with baserunning.

In college we had a great 1B coach. He paid great attention to every pitcher, trying to pick up anything on them. If he was tipping his pitches, our 1B coach would most likely be the first guy to see it and relay that information to us.

The 1B coach does not have many jobs, but if he master's those (watching for back picks, tipped pitches, any patterns with pick offs or time to home plate, etc.) he can be a big difference maker for your team.

They are needed.

[Knights Baseball]

A 1b coach that knows what he is doing in an asset. He can pick up signs, stop runners from getting picked off, and most importantly, a good 1b coach will get more kids into scoring position.

[turnin2]

OK but in this theoretical exercise I'm trying to find out not only which one you'd take, but which one, assuming good attitudes for both, would be easier to develop a complete ball player out of-the kid who can rake but hasn't worked on or learned the rest of the game beyond hitting, catching and throwing or the Adam Everett type.


Honestly, if I'm starting a team, I'm taking the complete player, I'd probably take the Everett type!! Now I know he is going to hit .280, maybe 20 doubles, score about 70 runs, but its the little things. Love Manny, could watch him hit all day!! But is he the total package, no. But he'd ,makes others better (Dodgers batting avg went up 24 points as a team after the arrival, proof enough) Could Manny steal bases?? Maybe a few. Could he drop down a few bunts??? Maybe. That isn't his game, so its a tough comparison. I've coached HS for 12 years. I've coached some good ones, but have had or seen few that can do it all. Your kids that can hit, sometimes hard to get to do the little things, they feel it is less. The avg HS kid or the one that doesn't hit well, yeah he'll do whatever it takes to be better. I think these two types make it a tought comparison, but I'll say at the HS level, I'll take a kid who understands situations, can put the ball in play, and play great defense (make the routine plays!)

[CoachB25]

I have to tell you, I don't get it. Useless? There are a variety of chores a 1st base coach can handle. First, that move by either a right or left handed pitcher. It comes in handy that when a runner is at first you reinforce things you have said in the dugout about the "moves." If you're the type of team that runs on "1st move" it often is good for the coach to make sure that the runner gains a perspective of where they need to be on that lead that gives them an advantage yet doesn't tip it off. Ok so we all understand that rounding the bases etc. the verbals help but the runner should know what is up. However, saying things like read the cut or the cut's missed help the runner know to take that extra base. How about the overthrow to first? Verbals sometimes help there as well. Yes, SOMETIMES.

The ability to call pitches is KEY if that's something your team does. I believe that when I coached first I could do that for 98% of the games we played. Whether I did do it for 98% if the games we played, I'm not saying.:waving:laugh

There is always the situation of the missed sign where a player wants to clarify. I never had a lot of patience with this but it happens. What about the runner on 3rd and the base on balls. I've grown to love the tatic of sending the runner right away. We'd just say something to the base runner as he approached 1st to the effect of "good to have you around." Off they go. Then we'd yell out a verbal on what we wanted the runner to do once we saw the defensive reaction. So much for strategy.

Ok so I haven't said anything anyone didn't already know. However this game is a game of inches and who makes the last mistake or biggest mistake. I prefer to have someone over there that has a sense of what's going on. JMHO!

[Knights Baseball]

I think that he must have had an awful 1b coach at some point to say that they are counterproductive.

[gwynnfan]

When I started to coach and give lessons I could not believe how many Freshman HS who had no idea how to bunt. When I would do BP ( lessons ) and make them bunt the sluggers did not take much interest. Here is a fact. Last year Varitek did not sacrifice bunt all season. when you watch David Ortiz and Carlos Pena hit with the switch on doesn't it drive you crazy that they don't bunt everytime to 3rd. And we expect our kids to want to bunt.
In HS I think a good way to run BP if you give them 12 pitches give them 15 and they have to execute a 3rd base line a 1st base line and a dead bunt first before they get to hit. If it takes them 6 attempts to get them down they only get 9 more pitches. They will learn quickly because they will do almost anything to hit more, even practice bunting on their own.

[omg]

I think that he must have had an awful 1b coach at some point to say that they are counterproductive.

Counterproductive may have been overstating it. Everybody made good cases for why they are needed which is what I was looking for. I still think they are pretty much dead weight.

[Knights Baseball]

Counterproductive may have been overstating it. Everybody made good cases for why they are needed which is what I was looking for. I still think they are pretty much dead weight.

Ha, well, maybe you will find a coach who will change you mind.

[SimiBaseball]

You mean there's more to baseball than swing mechanics? Who knew?

Honestly people, how many of you have coached the next Manny? Anyone?

My hypothesis for the trend of poor fundamentals is the prevalence of travel ball. I'll explain.

Good youth coaches are a rare commodity. Go down to your local league and watch a few practices. Typically you'll see a half hour of kids taking ground balls using poor form, then an hour of one kid trying to hit BP off a coach who can't pitch and giving some new piece of advice after every swing while 10 kids stand around throwing dirt clods and talking a little Wii. Back in the day, the league always had those 3 or 4 coaches who actually planned a structured baseball practice that covered all the bases over the course of a season. Over 5 or 6 seasons, those coaches not only gave exposure to 40 or 50 different kids but also to other coaches in the league who improved their knowledge and ability to teach. It was like the Lion King - the circle of life. Now those 3 or 4 coaches hit the road with their 11 kids while the best coach in the league is now the guy who throws the best BP. The circle of life has become the ring of incompetence.

I'm sure there are many exceptions, but I believe this is the general trend. Essentially the fundamental baseball incubator is shrinking giving fewer kids exposure to quality instruction.

[THop]

SimiBaseball,

I totally agree. Soooooo, how can we use the Internet to educate the kids who play for the coaches you described? So they won’t have to hear the “fundamentals” mentioned earlier in this thread, for the first time, on their high school field.

I’ve spent 9 years trying to figure this out.

THop

[Jake Patterson]

SimiBaseball,

I totally agree. Soooooo, how can we use the Internet to educate the kids who play for the coaches you described? So they won’t have to hear the “fundamentals” mentioned earlier in this thread, for the first time, on their high school field.

I’ve spent 9 years trying to figure this out.

THop
You create sites like Baseball Fever and solicit members. Then get them to read, educate themselves and teach!

[Mark H]

You create sites like Baseball Fever and solicit members. Then get them to read, educate themselves and teach!

:) There you go.

[SimiBaseball]

Unfortunately I don't think the typical kid will educate himself on the Internet. There are too many other distractions if you know what I mean.

For the kid that does seek out that sort of information on this board, it would be helpful if he or she didn't have to sift through 10 posts arguing about who knows best how to describe what they're seeing on video for every 1 post that discusses one of the other 1,328 facets of the game. Maybe a separate category for "Swing Talk" and leave "Baseball 101" for the other baseball subjects.

I think the bigger question is "how do youth leagues go about improving the quality of coaching?"

[Jake Patterson]

I think the bigger question is "how do youth leagues go about improving the quality of coaching?"This IS a big problem in youth baseball. I approached LLI ten years ago with a train the trainer program with online elements. They were not interested. They felt their AL and AL programs were all they needed. If you agree with their training,which I have issues with, they only reach about 2% of all LL coaches leaving many to fend for themselves. The Al and Al programs programs are expensive and inconvenient for the average Joe. We went off on our own and built our own clinic. It quickly became the second largest clinic in the northeast and has included Jon Doyle, Bill Peterson and CatchingCoach. We have trained over 1200 coaches. Baseball in our area has improved, but it takes a huge committment from a training champion. I will be backing out this season and it will be interesting to see where it goes from here. Something systemic is needed and an organization like Little League needs to take the lead.... BUT they are not interested in training as much as they are making a few dollars.

[THop]

Thanks for the input

[shake-n-bake]

This IS a big problem in youth baseball. I approached LLI ten years ago with a train the trainer program with online elements. They were not interested. They felt their AL and AL programs were all they needed. If you agree with their training,which I have issues with, they only reach about 2% of all LL coaches leaving many to fend for themselves. The Al and Al programs programs are expensive and inconvenient for the average Joe. We went off on our own and built our own clinic. It quickly became the second largest clinic in the northeast and has included Jon Doyle, Bill Peterson and CatchingCoach. We have trained over 1200 coaches. Baseball in our area has improved, but it takes a huge committment from a training champion. I will be backing out this season and it will be interesting to see where it goes from here. Something systemic is needed and an organization like Little League needs to take the lead.... BUT they are not interested in training as much as they are making a few dollars.

Jake, what is "AL" and the "AL programs"?

I recieve a periodic newsletter called Tips From The Coach that I think originated several years ago when I first coached LL. Talking to other coaches, they were recieving the same newsletter in their e-mail. There's some very good "Skills and Drills" information that'd be useful to anyone. So, you wouldn't really expect to talk about the newsletter you recieved a day or two ago with another coach, one that's pretty green, and hear they didn't take the time to browse it and don't normally do so. That happened on several occassions.

So, I applaud LL. I'm not sure if every LL coach gets these newsletters or pointed in the direction of where to recieve some coaching help. Hopefully so. Not saying this particular guy's stuff is the complete unabridged authority on the game, but like I said it has plenty of helpful tips and drills. Part of the problem, at least what I've seen, is that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make 'em drink. They need mandatory coaching camps.

This topic actually came up last night at a New Year's party I went to. I'm not a big fan of talking about other people. "Big people talk about big things. Ordinary people talk about ordinary things. Little people talk about other people." Anyway, I'll blame it on being 10 different kinds of drunk, but I got caught up in it a little. Talking with some friends that have more youth coaching experience than I, they tended to think that politics plays some role in the lack of developing proper (key word: proper) fundamentals.

I'll paraphrase their thoughts. Basically what they were saying is that coaches (some, not all by any means) have a propensity to teach to their sons' strengths. Combine that with some of those coaches not really having an accurate perception of their kid's skill level. They spend time working their kid outside of practice or get them instruction. It all adds up to, "Watch Billy. That's how you do it." Well their boy Billy is probably a super kid, but not necessarily the model of how it's done. And, rather than focus more attention on where Billy is weak and work on improvement, they're telling me that they see a tendency to focus on coaching what the kid is best at.

[Jake Patterson]

Shake,
I think what you describe is typical for all leagues. I feel dads also teach to there strengths... or what they feel they know. There is no standard "basic training" available to new coaches. Al and Al (Al Herbeck and Al Price) are two physical ed. guys from Canada who sold LLI on their basic training program years ago, and I have to be honest, for the most part, they have done a good job. The problem is the for profit system of "Buy my DVD, book,etc..." does little to perpetuate good standard training and until LLI recognizes this and initiates a Train-The-Trainer program, little more can be done, except on a local level.

Here's a link: http://www.alandalbaseball.com/KnowYourBaseball/pages/mainFrame.asp

We need to offer something convenient, and at no (little) cost to the new guys.

[Ursa Major]

Skipper, I too learned in the 60's, and I think that the caliber of 'small ball' fundamentals was better. But, I lived in a semi-rural area where baseball was king and kids would actually talk fundamentals.

I often use as a sign of how advanced that a coach and team is in fundamental by how they handle cut-off drills. If the catcher is yelling "Left-2, left-1, there! Now Cut-2", I know they've at least partially got it down. In my day, any 11/12 y/o team would know what that meant. Now, you often don't see that happen until kids get to high school.

IMHO, first base coaches are crucial for:

(a) telling kids whether to go for two on hits to center and left (but, admittedly, kids screw it up enough by not getting out of the box quickly),
(b) reading the pick-off moves, as mentioned before (because kids won't be troubled to watch or discuss the move in the dugout), and
(c) most importantly -- to get coaches out of the dugout during at-bats so they don't bother the manager with strategy ideas and pester the kids with suggestions when the kids should be concentrating on the opposing pitcher. :D