definitive swing plane "angle"

[bob_r]

Couple of swing plane questions:

1) If you are looking from the pitchers view and you measure the swing plane angle (the ground being zero degrees) what would be the ideal range that you would see from low pitch to high pitch (within a generous strike zone). My guess is 45 degrees on a low pitch to almost zero on a high pitch.

2) Should the swing plane be perpendicular to the spine in all cases?

[omg]

Couple of swing plane questions:

1) If you are looking from the pitchers view and you measure the swing plane angle (the ground being zero degrees) what would be the ideal range that you would see from low pitch to high pitch (within a generous strike zone). My guess is 45 degrees on a low pitch to almost zero on a high pitch.

2) Should the swing plane be perpendicular to the spine in all cases?

These are some great questions and I am interested in this as well. When you say swing plane are you referring to the barrel of the bat, the whole bat, or what? When you say SWING plane are you talking about the whole swing from beginning to end, the swing just before and after contact, or what?

[Chris O'Leary]

2) Should the swing plane be perpendicular to the spine in all cases?

It always will be in a high-level swing, which is why tilt is so important.

[bob_r]

These are some great questions and I am interested in this as well. When you say swing plane are you referring to the barrel of the bat, the whole bat, or what? When you say SWING plane are you talking about the whole swing from beginning to end, the swing just before and after contact, or what? I'm referring to the barrel.

[XV84]

It always will be in a high-level swing, which is why tilt is so important.

When and where is the tilt?

In a high-level swing, the hands set the swing plane and the rest of the body accommodates that goal.

[XV84]

It always will be in a high-level swing, which is why tilt is so important.

Can you tell me where the pitch is going to be based upon the amount of "tilt over the plate" in this hitter?

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/hitting%20clips/vladpitchlocation.gif

[dominik]

Is this the same hitter? If yes I would say the one on the right is lower.

[XV84]

Is this the same hitter? If yes I would say the one on the right is lower.

Based on his amount of "tilt over the plate"?

[RayR]

Based on his amount of "tilt over the plate"?

I think I know what you are getting at I somewhat agree - meaning I see what I think you see. But, I believe the body will help set the hands for the proper swing plane, not vice versa. Can't see it on video, but IMO this is how the brain organizes the movement. Hands are the last outpost so to speak so they get the message last.

[dominik]

Based on his amount of "tilt over the plate"?

May be I'm wrong or just guessing, but to me it seems tha the one on the right has a little more of a flat back, his shoulders seem lower.

[Chris O'Leary]

Can you tell me where the pitch is going to be based upon the amount of "tilt over the plate" in this hitter?

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/hitting%20clips/vladpitchlocation.gif

Based on what the catcher and the hitter do, it looks like the pitches are basically the same height but the pitch on the left is more outside (thus the greater tilt and flatter bat angle).

[HYP]

I think I know what you are getting at I somewhat agree - meaning I see what I think you see. But, I believe the body will help set the hands for the proper swing plane, not vice versa. Can't see it on video, but IMO this is how the brain organizes the movement. Hands are the last outpost so to speak so they get the message last.
RayR,

I disagree. I'll use a couple of analogies non baseball related.

Wide Reciever going up for a ball, his mind says get my hands to the ball and the body responds to aid the hands in that task. The hands don't aid the body but the body aids the hands.

A basket ball player shooting in traffic. His body responds to stay balanced because of the goal of the hands. The hands need to get the ball to the basket. The mind knows the hands goal so the body responds to allow the hands to acheive their goal.

Same in hitting. The mind knows the goal of the hands. So the body responds to aid the hands in acheiving their goal.

Your body doesn't need the aid of your hands but your hands need the aid of your body.

HYP

[BoardMember]

I would think that defining HOW to acheive an effective plane match is more important then worrying about defining a specific plane........

[Encinitas]

What is Rowand's Tilt Adjustment to the low pitch?

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/rowand_behind_sm.gif


vs. the high pitch:

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/rowand_rear.gif

[XV84]

May be I'm wrong or just guessing, but to me it seems tha the one on the right has a little more of a flat back, his shoulders seem lower.

The one on the right is lower, yes, but not by much. The pitch location however differs by at least a foot in height.

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/hitting%20clips/vladhighlowbatangle.gif

[BoardMember]

What is Rowand's Tilt Adjustment to the low pitch?

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/rowand_behind_sm.gif


vs. the high pitch:

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/rowand_rear.gif

There are SO many variables that it's impossible to decern. In your example Enc, the first clip show a pitch that is SEVERLY inside (note the incoming shadow). As plane matching begins to occur, it's fairly obvious he's about to get jammed down and in, which would require a VERY steep approach. Steep inside approaches require more lateral tilt as the plane match develops......

Tilting at the waist on a SEVERE inside location is obviously NOT optimal......

And of course, tilting at the waist IS optimal on a low-out location for ALL the obvious reasons........

The body uses an infinately unlimited number of coronal a sagittal tilts to execute a good plane match..........

So, IMO, discussing HOW to efficiently plane match is a more productive discussion then it's only this or that........

[Chris O'Leary]

The one on the right is lower, yes, but not by much. The pitch location however differs by at least a foot in height.

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/hitting%20clips/vladhighlowbatangle.gif

The shoulder tilts are quite different between the two at the POC due to the different heights of the pitch.

Also, the angles of the clips are slightly different, so there's some distortion there.

It would be better to compare two swings at two different pitches by the same batter during the same game and from the same camera position to ensure that you're not comparing apples and oranges.

P.S. He makes a nice adjustment on the pitch on the left. He looks like he was looking for a pitch low and away but got a pitch middle up (maybe a hanging slider), which is why he gets more erect at the last second.

P.P.S. It looks like you may have stopped the frame on the right a frame early or the POC is between frames.

[Chris O'Leary]

What is Rowand's Tilt Adjustment to the low pitch?

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/rowand_behind_sm.gif

vs. the high pitch:

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/rowand_rear.gif

I don't know, shoulder tilt maybe?

You really need to stop your clips at the POC to allow for proper analysis and comparison.

[XV84]

Based on what the catcher and the hitter do, it looks like the pitches are basically the same height but the pitch on the left is more outside (thus the greater tilt and flatter bat angle).

The amount of "tilt over the plate" is nearly identical, yet the pitch locations are drastically different. How can the pitch on the left constitute as "greater tilt"?

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/hitting%20clips/vladhighlowbatangle.gif

This hitter did not use "tilt over the plate" to "adjust" or "set himself up" for each of the pitch locations. He "tilted" for another reason.

In order to get to each pitch, he changed his bat angle via the hands.

[wrstdude]

There are SO many variables that it's impossible to decern. In your example Enc, the first clip show a pitch that is SEVERLY inside (note the incoming shadow). As plane matching begins to occur, it's fairly obvious he's about to get jammed down and in, which would require a VERY steep approach. Steep inside approaches require more lateral tilt as the plane match develops......

Tilting at the waist on a SEVERE inside location is obviously NOT optimal......

And of course, tilting at the waist IS optimal on a low-out location for ALL the obvious reasons........

The body uses an infinately unlimited number of coronal a sagittal tilts to execute a good plane match..........

So, IMO, discussing HOW to efficiently plane match is a more productive discussion then it's only this or that........

When I note the incoming shadow I conclude the sun must be above and to the right of Rowand. When I note the actual ball coming in I conclude that the pitch isn't "SEVERELY inside".

Can you define severely inside? Is that still a strike? On the black? Off the plate?

[Chris O'Leary]

When I note the incoming shadow I conclude the sun must be above and to the right of Rowand. When I note the actual ball coming in I conclude that the pitch isn't "SEVERELY inside".

Can you define severely inside? Is that still a strike? On the black? Off the plate?

It looks maybe an inch inside of down the middle to me based on its position relative to the chalk and the angle of the camera.

[wrstdude]

It looks maybe an inch inside of down the middle to me based on its position relative to the chalk and the angle of the camera.

So you would also conclude that the pitch is NOT severely inside? I will assume that you think an inch inside of down the middle is NOT severely inside. I also agree that an inch inside of down the middle is NOT severely inside and is a much more accurate description of the flight of the ball.

[Chris O'Leary]

So you would also conclude that the pitch is NOT severely inside? I will assume that you think an inch inside of down the middle is NOT severely inside. I also agree that an inch inside of down the middle is NOT severely inside and is a much more accurate description of the flight of the ball.

I don't think this pitch was severely inside, relative to the plate.

However, it does look a bit like the hitter does kind of jam himself which means he may have been looking low and away (or got fooled some other way).

[beemax]

In your example Enc, the first clip show a pitch that is SEVERLY inside (note the incoming shadow).

wrstdude just touched on this, and I agree with him. The shadow has nothing to do with where the pitch is. It has everything to do with the location of the sun, and thats it.

SEVERELY inside? Seriously? The camera angle, if not exactly, looks to be directly behind home plate. That pitch looks more down the middle than inside to me.

As plane matching begins to occur, it's fairly obvious he's about to get jammed down and in,

Yet he hit the ball on the barrel.

[beemax]

However, it does look a bit like the hitter does kind of jam himself which means he may have been looking low and away (or got fooled some other way).

If that is getting jammed Rowand's barrel must be really small. I really do not see him getting jammed at all.

[Chris O'Leary]

If that is getting jammed Rowand's barrel must be really small. I really do not see him getting jammed at all.

If you go through the clip frame by frame and watch his back elbow, it's dead tight to his body as if he's trying to hit a ball inside (aka jammed).

However, he hits the top 1/2 of the ball with the end of the bat.

I don't know the context of the swing, but it looks he was fooled badly by the pitch. I think he was thinking he was going to to get a tailing FB inside (thus the tight back elbow and hands) but instead got a slider middle low (the POC is a bit out front, suggesting an off-speed pitch).

Nice pitch by the pitcher.

[XV84]

The shoulder tilts are quite different between the two at the POC due to the different heights of the pitch.

Shoulder tilt or spine tilt? Shoulder tilts are different, definitely, but what happened to the spine tilt? Why are the shoulder tilts different, but the spine tilts are the same and how is this anatomically possible?

Tell me again, what kind of "tilt" is important and when and where?

How does he go from green to red back to green and why?

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/hitting%20clips/vladlinesspine.gif

Also, the angles of the clips are slightly different, so there's some distortion there.

It would be better to compare two swings at two different pitches by the same batter during the same game and from the same camera position to ensure that you're not comparing apples and oranges.

Both "angles" are from SafeCo Field.

P.S. He makes a nice adjustment on the pitch on the left. He looks like he was looking for a pitch low and away but got a pitch middle up (maybe a hanging slider), which is why he gets more erect at the last second.

What is it that he does that "looks" like he was "looking" low?

He got more erect on the left because his hands had already set the swing plane via a "flatter bat" (your words). In other words, his spine responded to the inertia of the bat and the angle it took to get to the ball.

P.P.S. It looks like you may have stopped the frame on the right a frame early or the POC is between frames.

At 30 FPS, the camera doesn't always capture a frame where there is a true instantaneous POC, so I would say it is between frames.

[beemax]

If you go through the clip frame by frame and watch his back elbow, it's dead tight to his body as if he's trying to hit a ball inside (aka jammed).


That's not the definition of being jammed Chris. Getting jammed is just that, and your bat usually breaks when it happens.

Don't confuse staying inside a ball with getting jammed.

[Berkman#17]

I think he was thinking he was going to to get a tailing FB inside (thus the tight back elbow and hands) but instead got a slider middle low

Wouldn't a slider be moving away from him instead of the straight-as-an-arrow path the pitch actually is?

[Chris O'Leary]

Both "angles" are from SafeCo Field.

If you look at the chalk line on the ground, you can see that the view on the left was taken from a position closer to CF. Also, the position of the landmarks in the background are different.


What is it that he does that "looks" like he was "looking" low?

Because he's more tilted sooner.


He got more erect on the left because his hands had already set the swing plane via a "flatter bat" (your words). In other words, his spine responded to the inertia of the bat and the angle it took to get to the ball.

You're confusing cause and effect.

Shoulder rotation drives the plane of the bat, not vice versa.


At 30 FPS, the camera doesn't always capture a frame where there is a true instantaneous POC, so I would say it is between frames.

I agree.

[Berkman#17]

That's not the definition of being jammed Chris. Getting jammed is just that, and your bat usually breaks when it happens.

Don't confuse staying inside a ball with getting jammed.

Agreed.

"Bringing the hands in" is not the same as "getting your hands busted off".

[Chris O'Leary]

That's not the definition of being jammed Chris. Getting jammed is just that, and your bat usually breaks when it happens.

Don't confuse staying inside a ball with getting jammed.

But his hands are too far inside the ball, which is why he hits it off the end of the bat and not off of the sweet spot.

[Chris O'Leary]

Wouldn't a slider be moving away from him instead of the straight-as-an-arrow path the pitch actually is?

Some sliders do and some drop vertically.

The pitch could also have been a splitter given that the movement does look mostly vertical. That would also explain why he was out in front of the pitch.

This just makes the point (again) that context is critical when looking at clips.

[Berkman#17]

Some sliders do and some drop vertically.

The pitch could also have been a splitter given that the movement does look mostly vertical. That would also explain why he was out in front of the pitch.

This just makes the point (again) that context is critical when looking at clips.

And if it were a slider that dropped vertically, the movement would be more prominent on the video, no?

[Chris O'Leary]

Here's the Rowand clip blown up, slowed down, and stopped at the Point Of Contact (which is the ONLY way to get a good sense of what's actually going on in a clip).

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Videos/Video_Hitting_AaronRowand_C_High_001.gif

It amazes me that people think they can just eyeball this stuff.

[XV84]

Because he's more tilted sooner.

He's "more" tilted "sooner"? Really? Significantly? Can you quantify this for me in terms of frames?

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/hitting%20clips/vladpitchlocationlines.gif

You're confusing cause and effect.

Shoulder rotation drives the plane of the bat, not vice versa.

Do you mean to write "the plane that the shoulders rotate in drives the plane the bat rotates in"? Or perhaps, "the plane perpendicular to the spine is what drives the plane the bat rotates in"?

What component of shoulder rotation gets the bat on plane and keep it there? Why did you write earlier that he got the bat flatter on the left? This must have been "driven" by the shoulders?

[HYP]

There are SO many variables that it's impossible to decern. In your example Enc, the first clip show a pitch that is SEVERLY inside (note the incoming shadow). As plane matching begins to occur, it's fairly obvious he's about to get jammed down and in, which would require a VERY steep approach. Steep inside approaches require more lateral tilt as the plane match develops......

Tilting at the waist on a SEVERE inside location is obviously NOT optimal......

And of course, tilting at the waist IS optimal on a low-out location for ALL the obvious reasons........

The body uses an infinately unlimited number of coronal a sagittal tilts to execute a good plane match..........

So, IMO, discussing HOW to efficiently plane match is a more productive discussion then it's only this or that........


Reading through, trying to get caught up. Are you seriosly saying that based on the shadow that pitch is "severely inside"? Look at the lines on the batters box, that pitch appears to be right in the center. That is what I'd call a cock shot.

The shadow is based off of the position of the sun. If it were earlier in the day or later in the day the pitch could have hit the batter. Thank God shadows don't hurt.

HYP

[HYP]

The shoulder tilts are quite different between the two at the POC due to the different heights of the pitch.

Also, the angles of the clips are slightly different, so there's some distortion there.

It would be better to compare two swings at two different pitches by the same batter during the same game and from the same camera position to ensure that you're not comparing apples and oranges.

P.S. He makes a nice adjustment on the pitch on the left. He looks like he was looking for a pitch low and away but got a pitch middle up (maybe a hanging slider), which is why he gets more erect at the last second.

P.P.S. It looks like you may have stopped the frame on the right a frame early or the POC is between frames.


How often do you get the exact pitch, in the exact spot that you were guessing? So couldn't you say that almost every swing is an adjustment to the pitch you get? Exception educated guess, based off of past at bats, or home run derby/BP.

HYP

[XV84]

Chris O'Leary, you somehow avoided this:


The shoulder tilts are quite different between the two at the POC due to the different heights of the pitch.

Shoulder tilt or spine tilt? Shoulder tilts are different, definitely, but what happened to the spine tilt? Why are the shoulder tilts different, but the spine tilts are the same and how is this anatomically possible?

Tell me again, what kind of "tilt" is important and when and where?

How does he go from green to red back to green and why?

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/hitting%20clips/vladlinesspine.gif

[HYP]

http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/rowand 132.jpg


Do we want to rethink the location of this pitch?

[Chris O'Leary]

He's "more" tilted "sooner"? Really? Significantly? Can you quantify this for me in terms of frames?

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/hitting%20clips/vladpitchlocationlines.gif

The fact that these are two slightly different camera angles distorts the angle a bit, so it's hard to say for sure.

[Chris O'Leary]

Do you mean to write "the plane that the shoulders rotate in drives the plane the bat rotates in"? Or perhaps, "the plane perpendicular to the spine is what drives the plane the bat rotates in"?

This is also true.


What component of shoulder rotation gets the bat on plane and keep it there?

Hand action starts it and then the laws of physics take over.


Why did you write earlier that he got the bat flatter on the left? This must have been "driven" by the shoulders?

The hand action flattened the bat out early on.

[Chris O'Leary]

How often do you get the exact pitch, in the exact spot that you were guessing? So couldn't you say that almost every swing is an adjustment to the pitch you get?

Of course, but sometimes you guess more right than others.

[beemax]

But his hands are too far inside the ball, which is why he hits it off the end of the bat and not off of the sweet spot.

Chirs, you just said he was jammed a few posts ago! No he's hitting it off the end of the bat?

:confused:

Which one is it Chris?

Your backpedaling is making you contradict yourself.

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris O'Leary, you somehow avoided this:

I'm not convinced your lines are drawn accurately or are comparable given the different angles.

I'm not going to draw conclusions based on what may be a comparison of apples to oranges.

[Chris O'Leary]

Chirs, you just said he was jammed a few posts ago! No he's hitting it off the end of the bat?

:confused:

Which one is it Chris?

Your backpedaling is making you contradict yourself.

No, I said his hand and elbow position is as if he was jammed.

If you go through the clip frame by frame and watch his back elbow, it's dead tight to his body as if he's trying to hit a ball inside (aka jammed).

"As if" is a critical phrase that can't just be discarded.

[beemax]

Chris, remember when you said this?

Hint: it was only a few hours ago...


However, it does look a bit like the hitter does kind of jam himself which means he may have been looking low and away (or got fooled some other way).

Within a matter of hours you went from this to this, claiming that if you have your elbow dead tight to your body and the ball is inside (which it really isn't in the clip), he must be getting jammed:

If you go through the clip frame by frame and watch his back elbow, it's dead tight to his body as if he's trying to hit a ball inside (aka jammed).

Then somehow Rowand went from being jammed IYO to this:

But his hands are too far inside the ball, which is why he hits it off the end of the bat and not off of the sweet spot.

Which would make him the first person in the history of baseball to get jammed while hitting the ball off the end of the bat (as you claim now.)

Now, most recently, as you continued to backpedal and contradict yourself, all of these quotes came to fruition with this:

No, I said his hand and elbow position is as if he was jammed.

Which is not what you originally said (see first quote above).

Then this:

"As if" is a critical phrase that can't just be discarded.

Yet you are trying to discard all of your contradictions in the past 3 hours...

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris, remember when you said this?

The difference is that before I looked at the clip in real time and after I looked at it frame by frame.

As is often the case, I saw two slightly different things live versus frame by frame.

That was my mistake.

This would have been cleared up if whoever created the clip stopped it at the POC.

[beemax]

The difference is that before I looked at the clip in real time and after I looked at it frame by frame.

As is often the case, I saw two slightly different things live versus frame by frame.

That was my mistake.

This would have been cleared up if whoever created the clip stopped it at the POC.

Funny how you made this quote after looking at it frame by frame:

If you go through the clip frame by frame and watch his back elbow, it's dead tight to his body as if he's trying to hit a ball inside (aka jammed)

Hmmmmmm.

So when you said this and posted the clip of Rowand to the POC:

It amazes me that people think they can just eyeball this stuff.


Were you really just talking to yourself?

[HYP]

If you go through the clip frame by frame and watch his back elbow, it's dead tight to his body as if he's trying to hit a ball inside (aka jammed).

However, he hits the top 1/2 of the ball with the end of the bat.

I don't know the context of the swing, but it looks he was fooled badly by the pitch. I think he was thinking he was going to to get a tailing FB inside (thus the tight back elbow and hands) but instead got a slider middle low (the POC is a bit out front, suggesting an off-speed pitch).

Nice pitch by the pitcher.


Chris,

Can you please explain this because I would like to know if you are making this up as you go.

http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/rowandtop 133.jpg http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/rowand_behind_sm.gif

IMO if he hit the top 1/2 of the ball, the ball wouldn't leave the bat in the same trajectory that it came in on.

"Fooled Badly" if he was fooled can you point out the adjustment that was made to square the ball and drive it to the left side?

[BoardMember]

Sometimes I hate it when I have to go into this much detail about what I see that others don't.........

Well ok then. When I was refering to "the shadow", I was obviously looking at something a little deeper then a few of you........

The "dude" asked me to explain "severly inside". I would say that an incoming pitch, from a right hander throwing to a right hander, throwing a curve with a pretty big breaker would qualify.........

IMO, curve balls break horiz. first, then vertically......So early the movement is in to out (vs. a right hander) then falls.......Hence the visual "crocked loop" in the pitch.......

Lets look at the shadow of the ball, shown 10 frames before the ball actual ball appears. Which actually shows a longer ball fight.........

I would estimate we may be looking at what, about 8 feet in front of the plate?

Lets pay close attention to how much the incoming ball breaks (based on the shadow), and estimate where the ball began it's path from the right handed pitch......The pitch breaks at least 6" or more in the last 15 feet.

I'd say it started at least 2-3 inches off the inside corner for the first 20 feet or so.......

The hitter obviously recognized this early, hence the initial hand path......

Of course, I guess there's the argument that the SUN really moved fast during that pitch..........:D

Lets watch the "shadow"............;)

http://i44.tinypic.com/wl2jar.gif

Heres a different look that shows the amount of break from further out where the shadow starts........

http://i44.tinypic.com/4kit7d.gif

I highly doubt this pitch started as a "fatty".........

Coupled with how close this hitter is to the plate, obviously anticipating something out (note the catcher position), I think he "thought" jammed initially..........And made a good adjustment.......

But hey, maybe the "shadow" has a life of it's own???????:D

Or maybe I'm just "stupid".......

Tell Rich I said HI.......(no pun intended)

[Chris O'Leary]

And if it were a slider that dropped vertically, the movement would be more prominent on the video, no?

http://i44.tinypic.com/wl2jar.gif

As BM suggests in his post, you can actually judge the vertical movement of the pitch by watching the gap between the ball and the shadow narrow (in an arc) as the ball nears the plate.

Watch the shadow move across the red line as the ball nears the plate.

[LAball]

Sometimes I hate it when I have to go into this much detail about what I see that others don't.........

"With great powers comes great responsibility" Uncle Ben

[glorydays]

man, i love it.. i go from a forum (non baseball related) that was heavy handed moderated to serious hatred for each other hitting styles and it shows...

Isn't the swing plane determined by the tilt at setup and the fact that every mlb hitter wants to maintain the "V" in the elbow all the way through to the "L" at contact... you can see it in the video, the shoulder/elbow/hand never changes it's postion.. it just drops turning his hand upside down? i'm curious...
-Junior

[Berkman#17]

http://i44.tinypic.com/wl2jar.gif

As BM suggests in his post, you can actually judge the vertical movement of the pitch by watching the gap between the ball and the shadow narrow (in an arc) as the ball nears the plate.

Watch the shadow move across the red line as the ball nears the plate.

Why did you wait for someone else to post their thoughts, then you regurgitate what he said?

[Chris O'Leary]

Why did you wait for someone else to post their thoughts, then you regurgitate what he said?

Because he's correct.

The shadow track confirms the vertical drop of the ball, as I suggested above.

[Berkman#17]

So you wait for backup to "confirm" what you think you see?

[Chris O'Leary]

So you wait for backup to "confirm" what you think you see?

No, because I made my statement before he confirmed it.

Why do you care so much about this?

[FiveFrameSwing]

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/delme/wl2jar_trace.gif

[Berkman#17]

But you chose not to elaborate further earlier in the day until someone else came in with their thoughts that painted a "better" picture than you could.

I asked the question, you ignored it, someone else chimes in......and only then you come back with "see, what he said!".

[Chris O'Leary]

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/delme/wl2jar_trace.gif

I agree that the ball comes in pretty much straight but drops sharply (maybe 1 foot in the last 15 feet based on the shadow).

[Chris O'Leary]

But you chose not to elaborate further earlier in the day until someone else came in with their thoughts that painted a "better" picture than you could.

I asked the question, you ignored it, someone else chimes in......and only then you come back with "see, what he said!".

Please.

I thought what I said before was all that needed to be said.

Some sliders do and some drop vertically.

The pitch could also have been a splitter given that the movement does look mostly vertical. That would also explain why he was out in front of the pitch.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I agree that the ball comes in pretty much straight but drops sharply (maybe 1 foot in the last 15 feet based on the shadow).

The reason for adding a green tracer was because the shadow relies on the angle ...... which is changing as the ball changes. Better to judge the true path of the ball.

[Berkman#17]

So you said "all that was needed", then decided to elaborate more, but only after someone "backs up" what you say. Intriguing.

So, we've got a curveball that started around "2-3 inches off the inside corner", a slider, a slider that drops vertically, and a splitter. Interesting.

Why can't it be a straight change? Or a fastball that the pitcher subtracted on and threw it more like a BP pitch?

And, if the other guy is "correct" as you once stated, then wouldn't you need to go back and say that it is now a curveball and not a slider? He clearly said it is a curveball, and not a vertically dropping slider.

I dunno, when a curveball starts curving, then shouldn't it continue it's curve? Not start "2-3 inches off the inside corner" then magically stop it's movement towards the outside corner and turn into a straight line? That's a hell of a pitch right there. The Curvingfastball that drops vertically like a slider.

[Chris O'Leary]

Why can't it be a straight change?

Because straight changes don't break like that.


Or a fastball that the pitcher subtracted on and threw it more like a BP pitch?

Because slowballs get killed at the major league level.


And, if the other guy is "correct" as you once stated, then wouldn't you need to go back and say that it is now a curveball and not a slider? He clearly said it is a curveball, and not a vertically dropping slider.

I dunno, when a curveball starts curving, then shouldn't it continue it's curve? Not start "2-3 inches off the inside corner" then magically stop it's movement towards the outside corner and turn into a straight line? That's a hell of a pitch right there. The Curvingfastball that drops vertically like a slider.

I really don't see the horizontal movement, but it could still be a 12-6 curve.

Sorry, but this is a REALLY boring conversation, so I'm out.

[Berkman#17]

Because straight changes don't break like that.

Straight down, as you claim this pitch moves? How about a two-seamer? What about a Gyro? Or a Hoagie?


Because slowballs get killed at the major league level.

You've played there? Or have you just never seen some guys throw these pitches in certain situations? It happens, and in a larger frequency than you'd like to believe. It pitching is all about disrupting timing, and you throw a 4 seamer, if the guy recognizes fastball he will react to the 93MPH that he is expecting. Too bad it's coming in at 87.


I really don't see the horizontal movement, but it could still be a 12-6 curve.

Sorry, but this is a REALLY boring conversation, so I'm out.

Easy way out. When the going gets tough.....


-------------

[HYP]

Sometimes I hate it when I have to go into this much detail about what I see that others don't.........

Well ok then. When I was refering to "the shadow", I was obviously looking at something a little deeper then a few of you........

The "dude" asked me to explain "severly inside". I would say that an incoming pitch, from a right hander throwing to a right hander, throwing a curve with a pretty big breaker would qualify.........

IMO, curve balls break horiz. first, then vertically......So early the movement is in to out (vs. a right hander) then falls.......Hence the visual "crocked loop" in the pitch.......

Lets look at the shadow of the ball, shown 10 frames before the ball actual ball appears. Which actually shows a longer ball fight.........

I would estimate we may be looking at what, about 8 feet in front of the plate?

Lets pay close attention to how much the incoming ball breaks (based on the shadow), and estimate where the ball began it's path from the right handed pitch......The pitch breaks at least 6" or more in the last 15 feet.

I'd say it started at least 2-3 inches off the inside corner for the first 20 feet or so.......

The hitter obviously recognized this early, hence the initial hand path......

Of course, I guess there's the argument that the SUN really moved fast during that pitch..........:D

Lets watch the "shadow"............;)

http://i44.tinypic.com/wl2jar.gif

Heres a different look that shows the amount of break from further out where the shadow starts........

http://i44.tinypic.com/4kit7d.gif

I highly doubt this pitch started as a "fatty".........

Coupled with how close this hitter is to the plate, obviously anticipating something out (note the catcher position), I think he "thought" jammed initially..........And made a good adjustment.......

But hey, maybe the "shadow" has a life of it's own???????:D

Or maybe I'm just "stupid".......

Tell Rich I said HI.......(no pun intended)

IMO you're reaching. The ball is on a downward trajectory from the moment it leaves the pitchers hand. This could acount for the movement of the shadow. As the ball continues on that downward trajectory the shadow will move because there is not as much space between the ball and the ground. If you were able to follow the ball all the way to the catchers glove then the shadow would move into the glove.

Example; If you hold a ball 5' above the ground the shadow will be far away, dependent upon the angle of the sun, drop the ball, as the ball approaches the ground then the shadow will move towards the ball.

So in this clip the shadow makes no sudden changes but rather it follows a normal line towards the catchers glove based upon the normal trajectory of the angle of the ball leaving the pitchers hand.

HYP

[HYP]

I agree that the ball comes in pretty much straight but drops sharply (maybe 1 foot in the last 15 feet based on the shadow).

If the ball dropped a foot the last 15' could you please explain the adjustment he made to square this pitch?

[BoardMember]

I understand what your saying HYP, but it's still my contention (as I stated earlier) that the pitch breaks THE MOST in the horizontal plane EARLY in it's flight. As the pitch leaves the pitchers hand, it has the highest rate of spin, and most forward inertia (keeping it up). As it reaches the plate, the horizontal movement decreases and the vertical drop increases......

The pitch is absolutely going to show the least horiz. movement and the most vertical movement the last 10 feet.........

Even so, I believe that IF I were to straightline Fives clip, I believe it would show the pitch is NOT moving in a straight line even the last 10 feet........

If so, I wonder what happened the first 50 feet.........

Lets See:

http://i41.tinypic.com/28jw8hs.gif

The ball is STILL showing the last bit of horiz. track all the way to contact. Just a couple of inches at this point of course.........

Consider the first 50 ft. if the ball is still tracking away the last 10.......

Regardless, I still say it's more productive to discuss how plane matching occurs vs. defining a plane........

[XV84]

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/hitting%20clips/vladANA-updownspinelines.gif

[BoardMember]

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/hitting%20clips/vladANA-updownspinelines.gif

Is the point that he "un-tilts" (which is a form of tilting) to hit the high pitch?

[Deemax]

Who is pitching to Rowand in this clip?

Is it a righty throwing with a 3/4 arm slot by any chance?

....It would explain alot.

[HYP]

Who is pitching to Rowand in this clip?

Is it a righty throwing with a 3/4 arm slot by any chance?

....It would explain alot.
that's my point. They want to insist they know what the ball is doing from a top angle based off of the shadow. It could be a righty 3/4 arm slot, where does the pitcher start on the rubber, towards 1st base or 3rd. To try to create this arguement about
1st "severely inside" is ridicuolus, 2nd I think Chris said he was "badly fooled".

So to that I say, if this all happened please explain the adjustment that was made to square this pitch and drive it to the left side?

HYP

[Chris O'Leary]

Is the point that he "un-tilts" (which is a form of tilting) to hit the high pitch?

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/hitting%20clips/vladANA-updownspinelines.gif

I think it's funny that people think (or are trying to give the impression that we think) that tilting is a static, set it and you're done process.

I understand that good hitters generally set their initial tilt at set-up (usually to handle the ball down the middle of the SZ) and then vary it up or down according to the actual location of the pitch (which is what happens in the clip).

[dominik]

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/hitting%20clips/vladANA-updownspinelines.gif

At contact the lowr ball has clearly more tilt. His left shoulder is more below than on the high ball.

[Chris O'Leary]

Who is pitching to Rowand in this clip?

Is it a righty throwing with a 3/4 arm slot by any chance?

....It would explain alot.

I agree that if it's a curveball, then it's thrown from a high arm slot, which explains the relative lack of horizontal movement.

[jima]

Funny how you made this quote after looking at it frame by frame:



Hmmmmmm.

So when you said this and posted the clip of Rowand to the POC:



Were you really just talking to yourself?

This happens alot with Chris, since he studies video but didn't play the game. He doesn't really understand baseball vernacular. When a hitter is "jammed" he hits it off the handle or got the bat "sawed off". Chris hears a phrase and thinks he understands it, but really doesn't. If you understand Chris' background, I wouldn't spend too much time nailing him on vernacular misunderstandings.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I understand what your saying HYP, but it's still my contention (as I stated earlier) that the pitch breaks THE MOST in the horizontal plane EARLY in it's flight. As the pitch leaves the pitchers hand, it has the highest rate of spin, and most forward inertia (keeping it up). As it reaches the plate, the horizontal movement decreases and the vertical drop increases......


One could probably extend Scott's riseball study to cover this topic.

The pitch is the fastest at the point of the pitcher's release. Assuming one isn't pitching in a windy environment, then there is nothing happening after the pitcher's release that will increase ball speed or ball spin.

That said ..... I've had pleasure of catching Mike White ..... and I swear his curve moves significantly as it approaches the catcher.

Guess we could all benefit from some video evidence seeing the entire flight of the ball.

[beemax]

That said ..... I've had pleasure of catching Mike White ..... and I swear his curve moves significantly as it approaches the catcher.

Who is Mike White?

[jima]

Boy, this got off point. I still haven't heard a good explanation of how tilt works in the split second a batter has to get the barrel on plane with the pitch. If the bat is 90 degrees this tilt at impact.

[wrstdude]

Sometimes I hate it when I have to go into this much detail about what I see that others don't.........

Well ok then. When I was refering to "the shadow", I was obviously looking at something a little deeper then a few of you........

The "dude" asked me to explain "severly inside". I would say that an incoming pitch, from a right hander throwing to a right hander, throwing a curve with a pretty big breaker would qualify.........

IMO, curve balls break horiz. first, then vertically......So early the movement is in to out (vs. a right hander) then falls.......Hence the visual "crocked loop" in the pitch.......

Lets look at the shadow of the ball, shown 10 frames before the ball actual ball appears. Which actually shows a longer ball fight.........

I would estimate we may be looking at what, about 8 feet in front of the plate?

Lets pay close attention to how much the incoming ball breaks (based on the shadow), and estimate where the ball began it's path from the right handed pitch......The pitch breaks at least 6" or more in the last 15 feet.

I'd say it started at least 2-3 inches off the inside corner for the first 20 feet or so.......

The hitter obviously recognized this early, hence the initial hand path......

Of course, I guess there's the argument that the SUN really moved fast during that pitch..........:D

Lets watch the "shadow"............;)

http://i44.tinypic.com/wl2jar.gif

Heres a different look that shows the amount of break from further out where the shadow starts........

http://i44.tinypic.com/4kit7d.gif

I highly doubt this pitch started as a "fatty".........

Coupled with how close this hitter is to the plate, obviously anticipating something out (note the catcher position), I think he "thought" jammed initially..........And made a good adjustment.......

But hey, maybe the "shadow" has a life of it's own???????:D

Or maybe I'm just "stupid".......

Tell Rich I said HI.......(no pun intended)

We all know that's hardly the case. You just happened to be wrong this time and you're too proud to admit it. It's ok. Some people struggle with drinking or smoking. Your vice is obviously pride. I don't hold it against you....but don't think you're fooling anyone.

[HYP]

Boy, this got off point. I still haven't heard a good explanation of how tilt works in the split second a batter has to get the barrel on plane with the pitch. If the bat is 90 degrees this tilt at impact.

Short and sweet, the hands adjust the barrel to the ball. The hands set plane and the shoulders and lowerbody adjust to aid the hands in the task at hand.

HYP

[dominik]

But you can also adjust to lower balls by just dropping the hands and not adjust the body...

[Chris O'Leary]

But you can also adjust to lower balls by just dropping the hands and not adjust the body...

Yes, but not for power.

[HYP]

But you can also adjust to lower balls by just dropping the hands and not adjust the body...

Yes you can and it happens sometimes. Not ideal but sometimes you just have to get there. Now imagine trying to make that adjustment by adjusting your tilt first then having your hands follow the tilt of the torso. Might be a little to slow.

If you get the hands/forearms turning the bat early around the hands. Getting the arc of the bat around the hands, not the shoulders, will allow you the adjustability of moving the already arcing bat to the ball. If the bat is rotating around the shoulders then you must adjust your shoulders to match the plane of the pitch. Way to slow.

If I remember correctly there is a good clip of Manny doing this in a playoff game. I will look for it.

[HYP]

Yes, but not for power.

In my last post I mentioned a clip of Manny making this kind of adjustment, if I remember the clip correctly, that ball was hit out of the park. If I am wrong I will have no problem admitting I'm wrong

HYP

[ssarge]

That said ..... I've had pleasure of catching Mike White ..... and I swear his curve moves significantly as it approaches the catcher.

I think I have demonstrated a somehwat faulty and basically superficial understanding of physics often enough to convince everyone that my bona fides are lacking. . . .

But I would THINK that spin and velocity would affect ball movement early, and magnus force would effect it more later (as the air builds up around the ball.

And, assuming that is true, it is probably not unreasonable to asume that certain pitchers have a better spin / speed ratio for the purpose of developing mangnus force. Those pitchers would see "late" movement, if my theory is correct.

What ISN'T theory is that pitchers with late movement will see bigger contracts.

Regards,

Scott

[HYP]

But you can also adjust to lower balls by just dropping the hands and not adjust the body...


Here is the clip of Manny. Hands in charge. He knows the goal of the hands so therefore the body will respond to aid the hands. Notice the limited amount of shoulder rotation. What is causing that bat to get up to speed? Notice how the bat is arcing around the hands and the hands take the arcing bat to the ball. This ball was hit for a HR.

I know people will post that Manny is a freak of nature, that he's incredibly strong and I agree but that doesn't diminish the fact of what is happening.

http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/mannyearly1.gif http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/mannylowside.gif

http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/mannysameold.gif

[omg]

Here is the clip of Manny. Hands in charge. He knows the goal of the hands so therefore the body will respond to aid the hands. Notice the limited amount of shoulder rotation. What is causing that bat to get up to speed? Notice how the bat is arcing around the hands and the hands take the arcing bat to the ball. This ball was hit for a HR.

I know people will post that Manny is a freak of nature, that he's incredibly strong and I agree but that doesn't diminish the fact of what is happening.

http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/mannyearly1.gif http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/mannylowside.gif

http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/mannysameold.gif

Apologize for entering late. You are saying the hands primarily set the plane of the barrell of the bat. When you talk about tilt do you mean how much the torso leans over from the waist or do you mean how the back shoulder lowers realtive to the front?

[HYP]

Apologize for entering late. You are saying the hands primarily set the plane of the barrell of the bat. When you talk about tilt do you mean how much the torso leans over from the waist or do you mean how the back shoulder lowers realtive to the front?

when I use tilt it is the shoulders, not bending over at the waist. You can obviously see Manny bend at the waist but IMO this is because his body reacts to what the hands need to accomplish. He doesn't bend at the waist and then react with the hands. He reacts with the hands and the body responds.

[jima]

when I use tilt it is the shoulders, not bending over at the waist. You can obviously see Manny bend at the waist but IMO this is because his body reacts to what the hands need to accomplish. He doesn't bend at the waist and then react with the hands. He reacts with the hands and the body responds.

Chris, BM, is this how you see it? jima

[HYP]

http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/Manny3.gif http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/Manny5.gif

Other examples that the hands do more then hang on. The hands are in charge. They set plane and turn the barrel. The bat arcs around the hands, not the shoulders. I don't think it is a stretch for me to say that Manny has power.

If you truly are in search of the truth. Look at video of the best. Listen to what the best say. Don't just believe what I say or anyone else on this forum says, exception guys that are playing in Pro ball.. Make up your own mind as to what is happening. Get out and swing. If holding on to the bat and turning hard gives you the bat path of the MLB players then I say stick with it. If getting your hands involved early lets you create the MLB bat path then I say explore it more. If you disagree with someone, who cares what they think. Why can someone see what is happening better then you?

Seeking the truth with an open mind is the best way and the truth will set you free!!!

[HYP]

Chris, BM, is this how you see it? jima


How do you see it?

[BoardMember]

One could probably extend Scott's riseball study to cover this topic.

Believe me Five, I have.........And believe me, the ONLY conclusion regarding the riseball is that it moves early, NOT late........But we aren't talking about riseball........

As the spin degenerates late, movement is taken over by gravity. When a ball is moving toward you at high velocity, and reaching it's desination in less then 1/2 second, the delay in processing is a fact.

This is why the brain calculates tragetory/flight VERY EARLY, and estimates the area of contact........

The pitch is the fastest at the point of the pitcher's release. Assuming one isn't pitching in a windy environment, then there is nothing happening after the pitcher's release that will increase ball speed or ball spin.

You are correct, the spin and speed are the greatest just after release.......Hence, the horizontal movement is the greatest, before gravity begin to overcome the effects of horizontal movement......

That said ..... I've had pleasure of catching Mike White ..... and I swear his curve moves significantly as it approaches the catcher.

Mike has a very good curve ball. So do I. He also has a good rise. Both of which YOUR EYES see moving late. But as has been discused regarding the rise, when your eyes are seeing "late break", the ball is actually dropping........You brain sees it early, but processing delays make you believe it's late......

Guess we could all benefit from some video evidence seeing the entire flight of the ball.

True. But we don't. So it's all speculation.

My contention based on the ONLY VISABLE FACTS, including the video, and the launch positions achieved by the hitter, and the result of contact, is that this pitch starting inside, and moved out over the plate.

This tells the story to me. He starts TIGHT, as if the pitch were inside, this causes him to accelerate the bat head thinking it was inside. The result of this causes him to be early, and pull a ball that ended up out over the plate and should've been driven up the middle, or slightly oppo much deeper in the zone.........Resulting in what looks like a ground ball to the SS........

http://i44.tinypic.com/wl2jar.gif

Has NOTHING to do with pride. Has to do with the story I see regarding this at bat.........It seems to tell it's own story.......

If you, or anyone else have a different story for this at bat, so be it............

I've just pulling in from spending a few days lake tahoe for Xmas, enjoying the beauty of all the new snow............

[Chris O'Leary]

I think the (now) famous clip of Manny hitting a home run off of a ball well down in the strike zone...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Videos/Video_Hitting_MannyRamirez_CF_HR_ToLCF_LowPitch_60 FPS_001_Annotated.gif

...is a perfect example of how dynamic the process of tilting is.

He sets up erect as usual and then as he sits into rotation he adjusts his tilt angle (the yellow line) to take the trajectory of the pitch into account. However, a few frames before the POC he realizes that his tilt isn't sufficient so he increases it (the green line).

This enables him to maintain his connection and his bat speed better than if he had just adjusted with his hands and arms.

[BoardMember]

Chris, BM, is this how you see it? jima

Jima, I've said a thousand time here, that I believe the lead arm sets the initial plane and adjustments are made from there, involving mostly rotation/movement of the humerous in the socket coupled with the lead forearm and dynamic tilt/untilt on the both the coronal and sagittal planes...........

All this talk about HOW MUCH the hands can do bores me to death so I try to avoid it.

The hands may be able to add bat speed due to leverage WITHIN THE PLANE, but when swinging a 2 pound 34" object at over 70mph in less then 1/2 second, I don't believe the HANDS THEMSELVES are manipulating the barrel ANYTIME AFTER LAUNCH............

Those that do, are just working on what they feel......Arguing feel is "useless".......It's to subjective.......

You may feel it in your hands, but it ain't the hands themselves doing the work of adjustment IMO..........

I feel it in my lead arm........And yes, I swing a bat........

[BoardMember]

How do you see it?

If you would HYP, tell me why it matters to you what I see?........

Do you think you might learn something from me? Or do you think I might learn something from you.........

I'm curious.........

[Chris O'Leary]

The hands may be able to add bat speed due to leverage WITHIN THE PLANE, but when swinging a 2 pound 34" object at over 70mph in less then 1/2 second, I don't believe the HANDS THEMSELVES are manipulating the barrel ANYTIME AFTER LAUNCH............

I agree.

The distance of the head of the bat relative to the axis of rotation can change in and out, but that work is being done by the arms (Biceps and Triceps) and scaps, not the hands.

[mnh999]

Jima, I've said a thousand time here, that I believe the lead arm sets the initial plane and adjustments are made from there, involving mostly rotation/movement of the humerous in the socket coupled with the lead forearm and dynamic tilt/untilt on the both the coronal and sagittal planes...........

All this talk about HOW MUCH the hands can do bores me to death so I try to avoid it.

The hands may be able to add bat speed due to leverage WITHIN THE PLANE, but when swinging a 2 pound 34" object at over 70mph in less then 1/2 second, I don't believe the HANDS THEMSELVES are manipulating the barrel ANYTIME AFTER LAUNCH............

Those that do, are just working on what they feel......Arguing feel is "useless".......It's to subjective.......

You may feel it in your hands, but it ain't the hands themselves doing the work of adjustment IMO..........
I feel it in my lead arm........And yes, I swing a bat........

You don't mention "tilt" as far as setting or adjusting to the swing plane. How much, if any, do you feel this is involved?

I agree that many people will say the "hands" are doing something when, in fact, it may actually be the forearms or arms or something else. But I disagree that it's not important. I think "feel" needs to a huge part of the swing. If hitters (top level hitters) are "feeling" as if it's the hands, then in reality it is the hands. At least to the hitter. Maybe not to the scientist, but it is to the hitter.

LOL.. I hope you can understand what I'm saying. I can see where what I wrote might be a bit confusing. I'm coming at it from more an instructor/hitter point of view than a scientific point of view.

[Chris O'Leary]

I agree that many people will say the "hands" are doing something when, in fact, it may actually be the forearms or arms or something else. But I disagree that it's not important. I think "feel" needs to a huge part of the swing. If hitters (top level hitters) are "feeling" as if it's the hands, then in reality it is the hands. At least to the hitter. Maybe not to the scientist, but it is to the hitter.

As I have said to Swingbuilder multiple times before, I have no problem with the idea that the hands act as kind of a gunsight to help guide what the rest of the body does and set up a feedback system (as happens when you push a button on your car dashboard).

However, by thinking that it's ACTUALLY the muscles of the hands that do the work leads to a lot of misguided drills, exercises, and notions that isolate the hands (and maybe wrists).

[Chris O'Leary]

You don't mention "tilt" as far as setting or adjusting to the swing plane. How much, if any, do you feel this is involved?

Just swagging here, but I happen to think that, due to the physics of a high-level swing, the swing plane is determined...

- 70% by the lower spine/waist.
- 20% by the upper spine.
- 10% by the arms, wrists, and hands.

[mnh999]

Chris, I honestly think 99% of the folks who talk about the hands know it's not the actual hand muscles doing the work. It's about "feel". When I pick up a glass of water, I "feel" like my hands are doing most of the work. But actually my forearms, biceps, shoulders, etc. are all doing more of the actual work.
This is where some get so far off base, IMO. We continue to look at it from a scientist's point of view rather than a hitters point of view. For the hitter, it's all about the feel.
Big League hitters would laugh at some of the stuff they hear us talking about. To them it's about the hands.

What drills, exercises and notions are there that isolate the hands? I can't even think of any. Not sure there is much danger in that.

[mnh999]

Just swagging here, but I happen to think that, due to the physics of a high-level swing, the swing plane is determined...

- 70% by the lower spine/waist.
- 20% by the upper spine.
- 10% by the arms, wrists, and hands.

I know I'm being really stupid here, but how can you separate the lower and upper spine?

[BoardMember]

You don't mention "tilt" as far as setting or adjusting to the swing plane. How much, if any, do you feel this is involved?

I agree that many people will say the "hands" are doing something when, in fact, it may actually be the forearms or arms or something else. But I disagree that it's not important. I think "feel" needs to a huge part of the swing. If hitters (top level hitters) are "feeling" as if it's the hands, then in reality it is the hands. At least to the hitter. Maybe not to the scientist, but it is to the hitter.

LOL.. I hope you can understand what I'm saying. I can see where what I wrote might be a bit confusing. I'm coming at it from more an instructor/hitter point of view than a scientific point of view.

Dynamic tilt occurs during the entire swing. I believe a hitter gets into a comfortable athletic stance that IS forward tilt toward the plate. This fact is not arguable IMO.......

From there, the argument regarding WHAT TILT happens has been hashed over SO MANY TIMES that it's useless to define ONE or THE OTHER (lateral vs. forward).......They both occur.

I believe forward tilt dynamically changes to lateral tilt as the body is turned 90 degrees toward the pitcher........It's a function of the swing......

I DON'T BELIEVE lateral tilt is FIRST like some others here........I believe is it achieved during rotation as the body turns. and is exemplified AT CONTACT.......

Lateral tilt FIRST would constitute the rear shoulder DROPPING TOWARD THE BACK FOOT, STRAIGHT OVER THE BACK KNEE........FIRST......

This simply isn't happening..........

Rotation is happening, and as the body turns, lateral tilt is a result of staying in the plane..........

[BoardMember]

Chris, I honestly think 99% of the folks who talk about the hands know it's not the actual hand muscles doing the work. It's about "feel". When I pick up a glass of water, I "feel" like my hands are doing most of the work. But actually my forearms, biceps, shoulders, etc. are all doing more of the actual work.
This is where some get so far off base, IMO. We continue to look at it from a scientist's point of view rather than a hitters point of view. For the hitter, it's all about the feel.
Big League hitters would laugh at some of the stuff they hear us talking about. To them it's about the hands.

What drills, exercises and notions are there that isolate the hands? I can't even think of any. Not sure there is much danger in that.

Like I said, "feel" is TOO subjective......

You feel your hands picking up the glass.

I feel my hand grabbing the glass, and my arm picking it up. This is also what is truely happening........

Regardless, talking TOO MUCH about the hands to a hitter can be as much of a detriment as it is a help............

"Let your hands be in charge" is dangerous to the overall mechanic, and can produce a wristy, army, powerless swing........

[Chris O'Leary]

I know I'm being really stupid here, but how can you separate the lower and upper spine?

You set the lower spine angle by sitting down, leaning forward, and sticking your butt out like Pujols does.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/image/2006/04/22/015411722.jpg

The upper spine can articulate forward and backward, which allows you to hunch over independent of what your butt is doing (e.g. if you are sitting down).

A lot of people treat the spine like a rigid axle when it's more like an independent suspension (e.g. the upper and lower parts can move independently).

[Chris O'Leary]

I believe a hitter gets into a comfortable athletic stance that IS forward tilt toward the plate. This fact is not arguable IMO.......

I believe that in most cases they set up a tilt angle that assumes a pitch down the middle of the plate. As the front foot plants they tweak that angle as they read the pitch. They then lean forward more for a low pitch and lean back for a high pitch to make a further adjustment.

[mnh999]

I understand your thought that "feel" is too subjective to argue. But I think just too many hitters talk about "hands" and "feel" to ignore it. It's too big a part of the process. It becomes less subjetive, IMO, when such a high % are all feeling the same thing.

Thanks for the response on "tilt" too. I don't see it the same way, but I appreciate your thoughts.

[Chris O'Leary]

Thanks for the response on "tilt" too. I don't see it the same way, but I appreciate your thoughts.

How do you see it?

I am genuinely interested.

[HYP]

I think the (now) famous clip of Manny hitting a home run off of a ball well down in the strike zone...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Videos/Video_Hitting_MannyRamirez_CF_HR_ToLCF_LowPitch_60 FPS_001_Annotated.gif

...is a perfect example of how dynamic the process of tilting is.

He sets up erect as usual and then as he sits into rotation he adjusts his tilt angle (the yellow line) to take the trajectory of the pitch into account. However, a few frames before the POC he realizes that his tilt isn't sufficient so he increases it (the green line).

This enables him to maintain his connection and his bat speed better than if he had just adjusted with his hands and arms.

Let me tell you what I see, using your video. Just before you stopped the clip and put in the yellow line he is preparing his hands to go to the ball. That's why the spine angle changes. Notice how when you continue the clip, which way are the hands going, to the ball. Then you stop and put in the green line. The hands have gone to the ball, which causes the body to tilt more to aid in the hands goal,square bat to ball. It looks like he is trying to keep from going over farther by pulling back with his upperbody. The weight of the bat whipping around the hands and the fact that the hands have to move so far to get to this pitch is almost pulling him off of balance.

It is your stance that he stays connected by tilting and that this is how he maintains his bat speed. So if I am swinging a bat and I tilt like Manny is how do my hands get farther from my body. Does the tilt push my hands away from my body? If I take a normal swing and tilt my upperbody to change my swing plane without my hands being in charge then my body will move towards my hands causing me to become disconnected and then I will just be pushing to the ball. Which will diminish my bat spped.

Now let me ask if the shoulders are not rotating, or rotating very little, where did the batspeed come from?

Now my stance is the bat is being turned around the hands, by the forearms. This put together with the lateral tilt of the shoulders and the "showing the pitcher triangle", creates a pivot point around the hands. as the bat is circling around the hands I can move the hands to the ball without degrading bat speed because the bat never becomes disconnected from its pivot point. The hands do not become disconnected because the body will aid the hands to reach its ultimate goal of squaring bat to ball.

See what I think you are having a hard time grasping is you can't just adjust with the hands, because the body will aid the hands goal. The hands are in charge but the rest of the body will aid the hands. I am not advocating stand still and reach. With in the swing process the body will always respond to the hands.

Now I can adjust my body without the aid of my hands, so if I just adjust my body then what controls the hands? How do they get to the ball? If I adjust with my body without my hands in control then I will not get there, my hands will always be late.

[HYP]

If you would HYP, tell me why it matters to you what I see?........

Do you think you might learn something from me? Or do you think I might learn something from you.........

I'm curious.........

Jima asked you and Chris how they see it.

I merely asked Jima how he saw it.

Didn't direct the post to you.

But since you ask, I may learn something from you and you may learn something from me.

We are looking for the truth, right...?

[Chris O'Leary]

Other examples that the hands do more then hang on. The hands are in charge. They set plane and turn the barrel. The bat arcs around the hands, not the shoulders.

I think you are mistaking momentum transfer for the active action of the wrists. The rapid deceleration of the shoulders cause the head of the bat to whip around.

People make the same mistake when it comes to pitchers.

They assume the Pitching Arm Side elbow extends due to the action of the Triceps when in true the PAS elbow extends due to the rapid deceleration of the shoulders.

I'm certainly no fan of Nyman, but I think the idea of the double pendulum and the merry-go-round on the rapidly decelerating flat bed truck is the appropriate model.

[BoardMember]

Another chicken or egg story......:

Looking at this clip, which is setting up the plane. The hands or the lead arm?

Looking at the clip on the left, which is making the adjustment. The hands or the lead arm?

Watch what moves first to change the plane. Does the bat drop first indicating the hands are manipulating the plane? Or does the lead arm change the plane first........

http://i41.tinypic.com/2zoglsg.gif

[BoardMember]

Jima asked you and Chris how they see it.

I merely asked Jima how he saw it.

Didn't direct the post to you.

But since you ask, I may learn something from you and you may learn something from me.

We are looking for the truth, right...?

I see that now. And yes, ALWAYS.........

[jima]

If you would HYP, tell me why it matters to you what I see?........

Do you think you might learn something from me? Or do you think I might learn something from you.........

I'm curious.........

BM, I could be wrong, but I think that the Hyp one was addressing that to me. HYP, I've got no clue how the eyes transmit info to the muscles and what chain reaction occurs that enable the body to find the ball with the bat. I'll leave that Chris and others to try to figure out...even if a coach or parent knew exactly how it worked, it wouldn't help them teach their kid or student how to hit. What interests me is how do I put my kid in the best possible position, both physically and mentally, to succeed. The rest will be genetics and determination. My own personal experience as a player is that everyone learns differently, therefore, different cues work for different players. I get on Chris constantly about his references to linear cues, etc., when I have seen first hand how those cues have helped some players succeed. It really depends on what the swing problem is. It would seem apparent to me that the hands can't swing the bat by themselves and that the quicker you get the shoulders turning the quicker the bat is going to move through the zone...the hands, by themselves, cannot generate bat speed. I'm sure you've seen vid of disabled golfers hitting the ball 250 while sitting down...is that due to quick hands or the shoulders turning like hell?

[Chris O'Leary]

Just before you stopped the clip and put in the yellow line he is preparing his hands to go to the ball. That's why the spine angle changes.

I would say the head of the bat, but we're basically in agreement.


Notice how when you continue the clip, which way are the hands going, to the ball.

Agreed.

He has to let his hands work away from his body to get the head of the bat out into the line of the pitch. However, he makes some of this adjustment by tilting further so that he's still connected.


Then you stop and put in the green line. The hands have gone to the ball, which causes the body to tilt more to aid in the hands goal,square bat to ball. It looks like he is trying to keep from going over farther by pulling back with his upperbody. The weight of the bat whipping around the hands and the fact that the hands have to move so far to get to this pitch is almost pulling him off of balance.

Agreed.


It is your stance that he stays connected by tilting and that this is how he maintains his bat speed.

To a degree.

He does have to let his hands get away from the axis of rotation a bit.

Tilt isn't enough to accomplish the goal of getting the bat out and down there.


So if I am swinging a bat and I tilt like Manny is how do my hands get farther from my body.

You reduce the amount of centripetal force you apply.

The head of the bat wants to fly out away from you body due to centrifugal force, and you just let it.


Does the tilt push my hands away from my body?

No.

Tilt isn't involved in this process.

Centrifugal force pulls (not pushes) your hands away from your body.


If I take a normal swing and tilt my upperbody to change my swing plane without my hands being in charge then my body will move towards my hands causing me to become disconnected and then I will just be pushing to the ball. Which will diminish my bat spped.

I don't see how this follows.


Now let me ask if the shoulders are not rotating, or rotating very little, where did the batspeed come from?

From the arms.

However, in a high-level swing a different mechanism is employed.

Its just as in the throwing. Just because you CAN throw the ball using just your Tricep doesn't mean that your Tricep is involved in a high level throw.

The body uses different movement patterns to accomplish different types of actions.


Now my stance is the bat is being turned around the hands, by the forearms.

I agree that the bat is pivoting around the hands, but mostly due to momentum transfer and not the action of the forearms. Maybe the wrists are causing some of the pivot, but not all or even most IMO.


This put together with the lateral tilt of the shoulders and the "showing the pitcher triangle", creates a pivot point around the hands.

I absolutely agree that there is a pivot point at the hands, but I disagree about what causes the bat to pivot (or whip) around that point.


as the bat is circling around the hands I can move the hands to the ball without degrading bat speed because the bat never becomes disconnected from its pivot point.

The farther the hands get from the primary pivot point (which IMO is the spine), the slower they will move and the slower the bat will pivot around the hands due to reduced momentum.


See what I think you are having a hard time grasping is you can't just adjust with the hands, because the body will aid the hands goal. The hands are in charge but the rest of the body will aid the hands. I am not advocating stand still and reach. With in the swing process the body will always respond to the hands.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.


Now I can adjust my body without the aid of my hands, so if I just adjust my body then what controls the hands? How do they get to the ball? If I adjust with my body without my hands in control then I will not get there, my hands will always be late.

I agree that the position of the hands tells the body what to do. However, I think that most of the work is being done by the body and not the hands.

[HYP]

Another chicken or egg story......:

Looking at this clip, which is setting up the plane. The hands or the lead arm?

Looking at the clip on the left, which is making the adjustment. The hands or the lead arm?

Watch what moves first to change the plane. Does the bat drop first indicating the hands are manipulating the plane? Or does the lead arm change the plane first........

http://i41.tinypic.com/2zoglsg.gif

In this clip at contact I don't see the bat on plane with the lead arm. It appeares that the hands adjust the plane. IMO the difference in the start is because of pitch location, But has nothing to do with the lead arm setting plane. The clip on the left looks like a pitch waist high, away. The hands are preparing to go to the ball so the body will adjust its tilt to aid the hands to preform the task. same with the pitch on the left but for a pitch down and in.

You are right about, what happens first. The only way to truly know would be to ask the hitter. Video can't show the intent of the hands.

We will probably never convince each other what the other sees or feels. I just think that adjusting the body and swinging around the shoulders with the arms has no adjustability and is to slow.

HYP

PS that's David Wright correct?

[Chris O'Leary]

http://i41.tinypic.com/2zoglsg.gif

In this clip at contact I don't see the bat on plane with the lead arm. It appeares that the hands adjust the plane.

I just see the hands as a pivot point in both clips.

That doesn't mean that they are inconsequential, but I think the work is being done due to momentum transfer more than active work by the forearms.


The hands are preparing to go to the ball so the body will adjust its tilt to aid the hands to preform the task. same with the pitch on the left but for a pitch down and in.

I don't have (much of) a problem with this.

You can go too far with your emphasis on the hands, but again I'm fine thinking of them as like a gunsight.


We will probably never convince each other what the other sees or feels. I just think that adjusting the body and swinging around the shoulders with the arms has no adjustability and is to slow.

I don't know about BM, but I don't think the shoulders are the only adjustment mechanism.

I do think you can adjust by varying the location of the second pivot point, the hands (and notice I said pivot point and not engine). However, there is only so much the hands can do to adjust, so you have to adjust via the location of the hands and via tilt.

[Mark H]

The amount of "tilt over the plate" is nearly identical, yet the pitch locations are drastically different. How can the pitch on the left constitute as "greater tilt"?

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/hitting%20clips/vladhighlowbatangle.gif

This hitter did not use "tilt over the plate" to "adjust" or "set himself up" for each of the pitch locations. He "tilted" for another reason.

In order to get to each pitch, he changed his bat angle via the hands.

When you're fooled you do what you can and you can find clips to support anything. Looking at hundreds of clips most swing planes are near parallel with shoulder rotation. It's clear looking at clips, it's clear reading Adair, it's clear to most everyone except Richard and Tom. It's even clear to Hardy who Tom cites as one his sources while coming to an opposite conclusion than Tom. If you want to teach your kids to stand up straight and use the hands/arms to swing the bat lower or higher, good luck with that.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=dw67nw7421.giraffe_s

For those wondering, here's a link. If this has already been said, forgive me, I'm tired and didn't bother reading the whole thread. Already been through this too many times.

[HYP]

BM, I could be wrong, but I think that the Hyp one was addressing that to me. HYP, I've got no clue how the eyes transmit info to the muscles and what chain reaction occurs that enable the body to find the ball with the bat. I'll leave that Chris and others to try to figure out...even if a coach or parent knew exactly how it worked, it wouldn't help them teach their kid or student how to hit. What interests me is how do I put my kid in the best possible position, both physically and mentally, to succeed. The rest will be genetics and determination. My own personal experience as a player is that everyone learns differently, therefore, different cues work for different players. I get on Chris constantly about his references to linear cues, etc., when I have seen first hand how those cues have helped some players succeed. It really depends on what the swing problem is. It would seem apparent to me that the hands can't swing the bat by themselves and that the quicker you get the shoulders turning the quicker the bat is going to move through the zone...the hands, by themselves, cannot generate bat speed. I'm sure you've seen vid of disabled golfers hitting the ball 250 while sitting down...is that due to quick hands or the shoulders turning like hell?

Just wanted YOUR opinion.

Let me ask you this. If the hands do nothing but hold on to the bat and the shoulders rotate real hard doesn't it make since that the hands and bat will be dragged through the zone. The only way to get them out front is to continue rotating farther or stop the rotation and hope that the bat "flies off the merry go round". In this swing the bat swings around the shoulders and the only way to adjust plane is to lean or adjust the angle of the shoulders to get the bat on plane which there is no time for. The bat speed happens farther out front which makes it harder to adjust to off speed.

Now try turning the bat around the hands. First it will arc back towards the catcher as the hips are rotating. The weight of the bat going rearward helps keep the shoulders closed, along with lateral tilt, and the rotating of the triangle, creating seperation and you have still not commited to swing at the pitch. Now as the barrel has reached its farthest point rearward it continues to arc around the hands but now has changed diretion and is starting to move forward. This is when the upper body and lower body connect whipping the bat forward. The bat speed happens earlier, which will allow you to hit the ball deeper in the zone. now since the bat is arcing around the hands like I explained the hands have freedom of movement to take the barrel to the ball and not degrade bat speed because the pivot point of the bat stays around the hands.

Good luck on your quest for the truth,

HYP

[HYP]

I would say the head of the bat, but we're basically in agreement.




Agreed.

He has to let his hands work away from his body to get the head of the bat out into the line of the pitch. However, he makes some of this adjustment by tilting further so that he's still connected.




Agreed.




To a degree.

He does have to let his hands get away from the axis of rotation a bit.

Tilt isn't enough to accomplish the goal of getting the bat out and down there.




You reduce the amount of centripetal force you apply.

The head of the bat wants to fly out away from you body due to centrifugal force, and you just let it.




No.

Tilt isn't involved in this process.

Centrifugal force pulls (not pushes) your hands away from your body.




I don't see how this follows.




From the arms.

However, in a high-level swing a different mechanism is employed.

Its just as in the throwing. Just because you CAN throw the ball using just your Tricep doesn't mean that your Tricep is involved in a high level throw.

The body uses different movement patterns to accomplish different types of actions.




I agree that the bat is pivoting around the hands, but mostly due to momentum transfer and not the action of the forearms. Maybe the wrists are causing some of the pivot, but not all or even most IMO.




I absolutely agree that there is a pivot point at the hands, but I disagree about what causes the bat to pivot (or whip) around that point.




The farther the hands get from the primary pivot point (which IMO is the spine), the slower they will move and the slower the bat will pivot around the hands due to reduced momentum.




I'm not sure what you mean by this.




I agree that the position of the hands tells the body what to do. However, I think that most of the work is being done by the body and not the hands.

So we agree on a lot of things. Thanks for your response. Very much appreciated. I may hit on some of the things we don't agree on later or the things that you didn't understand because of my explanation.

Want to read the rest of the thread first.

HYP

[HYP]

http://i41.tinypic.com/2zoglsg.gif



I just see the hands as a pivot point in both clips.

That doesn't mean that they are inconsequential, but I think the work is being done due to momentum transfer more than active work by the forearms.




I don't have (much of) a problem with this.

You can go too far with your emphasis on the hands, but again I'm fine thinking of them as like a gunsight.




I don't know about BM, but I don't think the shoulders are the only adjustment mechanism.

I do think you can adjust by varying the location of the second pivot point, the hands (and notice I said pivot point and not engine). However, there is only so much the hands can do to adjust, so you have to adjust via the location of the hands and via tilt.

In reference to the bold. You are right but how I see it, the body will continue to adjust to aid in the hands ultimate goal.

HYP

[BoardMember]

In this clip at contact I don't see the bat on plane with the lead arm. It appeares that the hands adjust the plane. IMO the difference in the start is because of pitch location, But has nothing to do with the lead arm setting plane. The clip on the left looks like a pitch waist high, away. The hands are preparing to go to the ball so the body will adjust its tilt to aid the hands to preform the task. same with the pitch on the left but for a pitch down and in.

You are right about, what happens first. The only way to truly know would be to ask the hitter. Video can't show the intent of the hands.

We will probably never convince each other what the other sees or feels. I just think that adjusting the body and swinging around the shoulders with the arms has no adjustability and is to slow.

HYP

PS that's David Wright correct?

Yes it is Wright. And I've been through this before........

The previous clip is NOT properly sync'd.

In fact it's sycn'd to show the bat plane dropping 2 frames earlier. This skews one to believe the hands are "dropping the bat into the plane earlier then what really happens...........

Check out this clip PROPERLY SYNC'D........

The bat plane DOES NOT CHANGE until the lead arm lifts........:

http://i41.tinypic.com/30uegk5.gif


Compare the 2 clips and you'll see for yourself.........

Bad Sync:
http://i41.tinypic.com/2zoglsg.gif

Proper Sync:
http://i41.tinypic.com/30uegk5.gif

[HYP]

When you're fooled you do what you can and you can find clips to support anything. Looking at hundreds of clips most swing planes are near parallel with shoulder rotation. It's clear looking at clips, it's clear reading Adair, it's clear to most everyone except Richard and Tom. It's even clear to Hardy who Tom cites as one his sources while coming to an opposite conclusion than Tom. If you want to teach your kids to stand up straight and use the hands/arms to swing the bat lower or higher, good luck with that.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=dw67nw7421.giraffe_s

For those wondering, here's a link. If this has already been said, forgive me, I'm tired and didn't bother reading the whole thread. Already been through this too many times.

I think you mis understand. IMO the shoulders have nothing to do with it. Yes you can show plenty of clips where the path of the bat is in the plane of the shoulders. I have also seen clips where the bat is not on plane with the shoulders. But the bat is not rotating around the shoulders, it is rotating around the hands and the hands set the plane of the shoulders. Because the hands are in charge and the body aids the hands in the most efficient way possible.

HYP

[Chris O'Leary]

But the bat is not rotating around the shoulders, it is rotating around the hands and the hands set the plane of the shoulders.

The bat DOES pivot around the hands, but overhead video is clear that in a good swing the hands rotate with the shoulders (and the shoulders rotate around the spine).

I don't recall a HI person ever using an overhead view to prove a point, which may be why the idea persists over there.

[HYP]

Yes it is Wright. And I've been through this before........

The previous clip is NOT properly sync'd.

In fact it's sycn'd to show the bat plane dropping 2 frames earlier. This skews one to believe the hands are "dropping the bat into the plane earlier then what really happens...........

Check out this clip PROPERLY SYNC'D........

The bat plane DOES NOT CHANGE until the lead arm lifts........:

http://i41.tinypic.com/30uegk5.gif


Compare the 2 clips and you'll see for yourself.........

Bad Sync:
http://i41.tinypic.com/2zoglsg.gif

Proper Sync:
http://i41.tinypic.com/30uegk5.gif

Thanks for he properly synced clips. Notice when you stop the video and put in the red lines. Notice how the barrel is already blurring and appears to be moving rearward. This indicates to me that the hands/forearms are turning the barrel.

The reason I asked if this was Wright is because I have a DVD with him hitting and he stressed that he wants to feel his hands working. That he wanted his shoulders to feel like they were doing nothing. But he did stress his hands.

HYP

[Chris O'Leary]

Thanks for he properly synced clips. Notice when you stop the video and put in the red lines. Notice how the barrel is already blurring and appears to be moving rearward. This indicates to me that the hands/forearms are turning the barrel.

http://i41.tinypic.com/30uegk5.gif

If you look at the clips carefully, you'll notice that the bat doesn't start moving and blurring until the back elbow starts dropping.

[HYP]

The bat DOES pivot around the hands, but overhead video is clear that in a good swing the hands rotate with the shoulders (and the shoulders rotate around the spine).

I don't recall a HI person ever using an overhead view to prove a point, which may be why the idea persists over there.

I agree the bat does pivot around the hands.

The hands rotating around the shoulders. I don't believe to be an absoulute.

See the reason I used Manny clip was because the shoulders don't rotate they tilt laterally.

You mentioned centrifigal force. In the Manny clip there is centrifigal force but if the shoulders rotation didn't create it then what did. IMO the bat being rotated around the hands is what created this force and is why Manny was trying to hold his upper body back. All he did was move the center of the arc, the pivot point but didn't affect the centrifigal force because the force was around the hands.

Good conversation,

HYP

[HYP]

http://i41.tinypic.com/30uegk5.gif

If you look at the clips carefully, you'll notice that the bat doesn't start moving and blurring until the back elbow starts dropping.

Look again. The back elbow actually moves down from the raised position to a more horizontal position and the bat does move a little without blurring. which would indicate to me that it is not the dropping of the back elbow but something else.

[Chris O'Leary]

See the reason I used Manny clip was because the shoulders don't rotate they tilt laterally.

http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/mannylowside.gif

I'm sorry, but saying the shoulders don't rotate on this swing simply isn't defensible.

Does his back shoulder end up where it started?

If all he did was tilt over and swing with his hands, then a line running through the shoulders shouldn't shift.


You mentioned centrifigal force. In the Manny clip there is centrifigal force but if the shoulders rotation didn't create it then what did.

IMO there is rotation of the shoulders and thus centrifugal force.


IMO the bat being rotated around the hands is what created this force and is why Manny was trying to hold his upper body back. All he did was move the center of the arc, the pivot point but didn't affect the centrifigal force because the force was around the hands.

I agree that the bat rotates around Manny's hands, but that's not the only rotation in the system.


Good conversation

Agreed.

[BoardMember]

Look again. The back elbow actually moves down from the raised position to a more horizontal position and the bat does move a little without blurring. which would indicate to me that it is not the dropping of the back elbow but something else.

His hips and shoulders open much more into heal plant in the right clip due to location.

The elbow is sync'd to the hips, so it will begin slotting sooner, causing earlier bat speed.........

http://i41.tinypic.com/30uegk5.gif

[Chris O'Leary]

See the reason I used Manny clip was because the shoulders don't rotate they tilt laterally.

You mentioned centrifigal force. In the Manny clip there is centrifigal force but if the shoulders rotation didn't create it then what did.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Videos/Video_Hitting_MannyRamirez_1B_HR_ToLCF_LowPitch_60 FPS_001_Annotated.gif

If you compare the positions of the yellow and green lines the shoulder rotation is clear.

I'd put it at at least 90 degrees.

[HYP]

http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/mannylowside.gif

I'm sorry, but saying the shoulders don't rotate on this swing simply isn't defensible.

Does his back shoulder end up where it started?

If all he did was tilt over and swing with his hands, then a line running through the shoulders shouldn't shift.




IMO there is rotation of the shoulders and thus centrifugal force.




I agree that the bat rotates around Manny's hands, but that's not the only rotation in the system.




Agreed.

In response to the bold. No the back shoulder doesn't end up where it started. The reason it moves is because he is throwing his hands to the ball.

If the shoulders rotated to create the force then the hands would not be able to get that far in front of the back shoulder.

[GetYourBestSwing]

Manny's a freak.

A little luck and being a freak.... he hits that ball out of the yard.

Good convo you guys have going on.

[BoardMember]

I sure don't see any "pivoting" around the hands to this point.......

http://i39.tinypic.com/209g7ro.gif

[BoardMember]

In response to the bold. No the back shoulder doesn't end up where it started. The reason it moves is because he is throwing his hands to the ball.

If the shoulders rotated to create the force then the hands would not be able to get that far in front of the back shoulder.

HYP, are you saying the shoulders are NOT creating the initial force that "throws" his hands as you put it?..........

Don't tell me it's his arms.........The hands stay AT his shoulder for 3/4 of the sequence.......:crazy

http://i39.tinypic.com/209g7ro.gif

[Chris O'Leary]

The reason it moves is because he is throwing his hands to the ball.

Maybe, but his hands get where they do because the shoulders rotate to get them there. His hands couldn't have gotten to that spot without shoulder rotation.


If the shoulders rotated to create the force then the hands would not be able to get that far in front of the back shoulder.

I disagree.

You can tell that he gets his hands to that spot by a combination of...

1. Shoulder rotation.
2. Tricep extension.
3. Scapular protraction.

Imagine a bucket truck driving around with a guy in the bucket (which would be crazy but definitely exciting). The truck would be moving and the bucket would be moving independently but while still attached to the truck.

It's a combined movement.

[Chris O'Leary]

I sure don't see any "pivoting" around the hands to this point.......

Neither do I.

[HYP]

His hips and shoulders open much more into heal plant in the right clip due to location.

The elbow is sync'd to the hips, so it will begin slotting sooner, causing earlier bat speed.........

http://i41.tinypic.com/30uegk5.gif

Notice the distance of the bat and the rear elbow at the beginning of the clip. Then notice how that distance got less when the elbow is horizontal to the ground. This tells me that the hands are movng the barrel without the elbows slotting.

I am not saying the elbow slotting is not important. I am saying that the hands/forearms initiate and then the elbow slots, along with the tilt and rotating the triangle. But the hands/forearms are applying the force to the handle of the bat.

[Chris O'Leary]

Don't tell me it's his arms.........The hands stay AT his shoulder for 3/4 of the sequence.......:crazy

Precisely.

The hands DO end up moving independently of the shoulders, but later on in the process.

[HYP]

I sure don't see any "pivoting" around the hands to this point.......

http://i39.tinypic.com/209g7ro.gif

Follow the blur of the bat. Is it going around the shoulders or is it going around the hands as a pivot point?

[Mark H]

In response to the bold. No the back shoulder doesn't end up where it started. The reason it moves is because he is throwing his hands to the ball.

The back shoulder moves because of the hands? I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Does the penthouse support the basement? If you can't understand the very basics of the kinetic chain, how can you hope to understand a good swing?

[Mark H]

Follow the blur of the bat. Is it going around the shoulders or is it going around the hands as a pivot point?

Get Paul's stuff and study it all with special attention to the W part concerning whip, what it is and how it's created.

[Chris O'Leary]

Follow the blur of the bat. Is it going around the shoulders or is it going around the hands as a pivot point?

The bat is rotating around the hands which are rotating with the back shoulder.

The force gets multiplied, and the blur increases, because the hands are ahead of the back shoulder and not in line with the shoulders.

[Chris O'Leary]

The back shoulder moves because of the hands?

While this may be true from an intent standpoint, it's obviously not literally true.

[HYP]

HYP, are you saying the shoulders are NOT creating the initial force that "throws" his hands as you put it?..........

Don't tell me it's his arms.........The hands stay AT his shoulder for 3/4 of the sequence.......:crazy

http://i39.tinypic.com/209g7ro.gif

No that is not what I said. what I did say was shoulder rotation is not creating the force. The force is created by the hands /forearms turning the barrel rearward, with shoulder tilt and rotating the triangle. And the stretch that was created between the hips and the hands.

No I wouldn't tell you it was the arms. Saying the hands stay at the shoulder for 3/4 of the swing proves what I am trying to say. the bat is being rotated around a pivot point, the HANDS. That pivot point is not yet moving forward because of the force of the bat being sent rearward, which holds it in the armpit area and creates the stretch between the already turning hips. Once the bat has completed its turning rearward it is now going to start carring that force forward because the hands, as you mentioned were staying at the shoulder. At the point the barrel starts to move forward the hands are taken to the ball in this swing. The bat will continue to circle around the hands.

HYP

[HYP]

The back shoulder moves because of the hands? I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Does the penthouse support the basement? If you can't understand the very basics of the kinetic chain, how can you hope to understand a good swing?

That's OK I have laughed at many of your posts. i suggest you get out and swing.

No but the penthouse makes the money.

HYP

[HYP]

The bat is rotating around the hands which are rotating with the back shoulder.

The force gets multiplied, and the blur increases, because the hands are ahead of the back shoulder and not in line with the shoulders.

This confused me.

[Mark H]

While this may be true from an intent standpoint, it's obviously not literally true.

Apparently HYP thinks it is.

[Mark H]

That's OK I have laughed at many of your posts. i suggest you get out and swing.

No but the penthouse makes the money.

HYP

Sad dude. Very sad. You need to quit taking your cues from bar owners.

[Chris O'Leary]

No but the penthouse makes the money.

Actually, the penthouse is usually the effect of the money and not the cause.

[HYP]

Apparently HYP thinks it is.

I guess you think the shoulders pushed the hands out there or maybe because all of the energy created by the shoulder rotation flung them out there. Please did you even look at the video or are you just reading and guessing.

Chris and BM are at least having an educated and normal discussion but you just spout off with crap and no substance because you have no clue on your own. You're the little guy in the back ground of a group and you are just jumping up and down yelling, "yah, what he said"

Formulate your own opinion and not what someone tells you.

HYP

[Chris O'Leary]

http://i39.tinypic.com/209g7ro.gif

No that is not what I said. what I did say was shoulder rotation is not creating the force. The force is created by the hands /forearms turning the barrel rearward, with shoulder tilt and rotating the triangle.

If the hands, wrists, and forearms were doing something early on in the swing, then you would see some change in the angle from the bat and the shoulder, right?

So how do you explain that the angle of the bat stays constant relative to the shoulders (in the lag position)?

In the clip above, the angle between the bat and the shoulders stays at a pretty constant 90 degrees.


And the stretch that was created between the hips and the hands.

I certainly agree that the stretch is critical.

The hips pull the shoulders around, and the hands are attached to and rotating with the shoulders during the part of the swing that is shown above.


No I wouldn't tell you it was the arms. Saying the hands stay at the shoulder for 3/4 of the swing proves what I am trying to say. the bat is being rotated around a pivot point, the HANDS.

But how can the bat be rotating around a pivot point when the lag angle doesn't change?

if the hands were active at this point, the bat would have to go from the lag position to whipped out into the path of the ball.

I don't see any evidence of active hands in the clip above.

[HYP]

Sad dude. Very sad. You need to quit taking your cues from bar owners.

Please. I have been at this for along time.Way before I found HI or this site or Epstein. I make up my own mind but I am pretty sure you don't. With how much this forum doesn't like confrontation and just wants to discuss baseball. It is a wonder they allow you to be here. You know nothing about baseball or at least never have anything with substance, unless you repeat what you read from someone else and you are always confrontational.

Is this your MO jump into the middle of a discussion and puff up your chest and then proceede to make an ass out of yourself?

HYP

[Mark H]

I guess you think the shoulders pushed the hands out there or maybe because all of the energy created by the shoulder rotation flung them out there. Please did you even look at the video or are you just reading and guessing.

Chris and BM are at least having an educated and normal discussion but you just spout off with crap and no substance because you have no clue on your own. You're the little guy in the back ground of a group and you are just jumping up and down yelling, "yah, what he said"

I'm sorry. I'm just at a loss to discuss things with someone who looks at the sky and says it's green. Besides, I'm tired, sick and cranky. Sometimes I have a lot of patience. Not so much when someone comes on with a combination of stunning ignorance combined with arrogance. Either one by itself is ok.

Formulate your own opinion and not what someone tells you.

HYP

Funny. That's exactly what I was trying to say to you. Do you mean to tell me you came up with the idea the shoulders move because of the hands by yourself?

[Chris O'Leary]

HYP,

You've definitely got (or picked up) an unusual way of thinking about this that in my opinion confuses cause and effect. I can agree with the idea that the hands are like a gunsight and shape the intention, but I think at times you ignore or even disregard the things that do the real work (e.g. the arms and body).

I don't know what the right metaphor is.

Maybe it's like a pilot (the hands) flying a plane (the body). The pilot is critical, but at the end of the day the plane does the heavy lifting. You seem to be so focused on the pilot that you're ignoring all the metal around him.

Or maybe it's like a bomb (the hands) on a plane (the body). The bomb finishes the job, but the plane gets the bomb in the neighborhood of the target. A bomb without a plane isn't much good (as is a plane without a bomb).

They are both critical and work in tandem.

[gwynnfan]

OK, might get some grief for this one.

IMO, After the initial spine angle is set. ( after foot plant and load ) I believe the spine angle all is determined by the straightening of the right elbow. The adjustment your spine and shoulders makes is your body natural reaction/adjustment to allow your right elbow to straighten and to square the ball up according to how he tracks the pitch location. Your spine angle adjusts higher on inside pitches to allow room, level for "slot" pitches and down for those you have to extend on. I don't believe that the hitter actually make any conscience or predetermined adjustments. The function of the hands are the end result of the arm straightening ( except of course when Manny or Vlad golfs a but low and reaching pitch over the fence ) Naturally this after the hitter already has a fundamentally sound swing.

[Mark H]

Please. I have been at this for along time.Way before I found HI or this site or Epstein. I make up my own mind but I am pretty sure you don't. With how much this forum doesn't like confrontation and just wants to discuss baseball. It is a wonder they allow you to be here. You know nothing about baseball or at least never have anything with substance, unless you repeat what you read from someone else and you are always confrontational.

Is this your MO jump into the middle of a discussion and puff up your chest and then proceede to make an ass out of yourself?

HYP

Well I studied them all and liked Epstein before I learned more. In my view, anyone who finds value at HI, aside from the clip library, automatically disqualifies themselves from serious consideration.

Anyone have the link to the rafter whacking video?

[Mark H]

OK, might get some grief for this one.

IMO, After the initial spine angle is set. ( after foot plant and load ) I believe the spine angle all is determined by the straightening of the right elbow. The adjustment your spine and shoulders makes is your body natural reaction/adjustment to allow your right elbow to straighten and to square the ball up according to how he tracks the pitch location. Your spine angle adjusts higher on inside pitches to allow room, level for "slot" pitches and down for those you have to extend on. I don't believe that the hitter actually make any conscience or predetermined adjustments. The function of the hands are the end result of the arm straightening ( except of course when Manny or Vlad golfs a but low and reaching pitch over the fence ) Naturally this after the hitter already has a fundamentally sound swing.

I think you are confusing cause and effect. Are you familiar with Adair's rock on a rope analogy and do you understand the physics behind the idea that the bat should be swung like a rock on a rope and thus why the greatest efficiency is achieved when the bat swings on a plane parallel with shoulder rotation? No grief. :)

[HYP]

http://i39.tinypic.com/209g7ro.gif



If the hands, wrists, and forearms were doing something early on in the swing, then you would see some change in the angle from the bat and the shoulder, right?

So how do you explain that the angle of the bat stays constant relative to the shoulders (in the lag position)?

In the clip above, the angle between the bat and the shoulders stays at a pretty constant 90 degrees.

In the above clip. No there may or may not be a change in angle of the bat and shoulder. See how far the shoulder moves and how far the barrel moves to get to where it is?

I explain it because the hands stay in the armpit. I am not saying the hands just independently push at the ball. They do stay with the back shoulder to a point. I am syaing that while they are there they are turning the barrel around them. So in the lag position I would say that the bat will be in the same angle as the shoulders.




I certainly agree that the stretch is critical.

The hips pull the shoulders around, and the hands are attached to and rotating with the shoulders during the part of the swing that is shown above.

How do horizontally rotating hips pull diagonally tilted shoulders around?




But how can the bat be rotating around a pivot point when the lag angle doesn't change?

Answered in first answer

if the hands were active at this point, the bat would have to go from the lag position to whipped out into the path of the ball.

I don't see any evidence of active hands in the clip above.

Well I guess I won't convince you. I have tried what you discuss and it doesn't work for me. Maybe I am not doing it right but I have found what has worked for me.

I wish you the best of luck but I don't know where else we can go with this discussion. You or me may find something later.



Thanks for the insight on what you are seeing.

..........

[Chris O'Leary]

http://i39.tinypic.com/209g7ro.gif

I explain it because the hands stay in the armpit. I am not saying the hands just independently push at the ball. They do stay with the back shoulder to a point. I am syaing that while they are there they are turning the barrel around them.

I don't see any significant evidence that the hands are turning the barrel.

I see the movement of the bat tied to the rotation of the shoulders.

Maybe I see a bit of wrist flexion in the last frame or two, but IMO most of the bat movement is due to shoulder rotation.


How do horizontally rotating hips pull diagonally tilted shoulders around?

Via a spine that can move in multiple dimensions.

The spine can both twist and bend, as when Chad Bradford throws a pitch.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0cdT6QjdT45Dz/610x.jpg

[BoardMember]

No that is not what I said. what I did say was shoulder rotation is not creating the force. The force is created by the hands /forearms turning the barrel rearward, with shoulder tilt and rotating the triangle. And the stretch that was created between the hips and the hands.

No I wouldn't tell you it was the arms. Saying the hands stay at the shoulder for 3/4 of the swing proves what I am trying to say. the bat is being rotated around a pivot point, the HANDS.

No it isn't. Not at this point in this clip...........

That pivot point is not yet moving forward because of the force of the bat being sent rearward, which holds it in the armpit area and creates the stretch between the already turning hips.

The bolded part above is pure hogwash.......

How can you say the "pivot point" is not moving forward in this clip as the barrel arcs reward........? The hands ARE absolutely moving forward, with the shoulders......

Oh OK. HI terminology to create confusion........You said you've been hanging out there right?

IN ANY FORM OF A CIRCLE, there is only forward advance and backward advance...........The hands are either advancing forward or backward around the circle.

The fact that the top of the circle arcs, doesn't mean the hands are NOT ADVANCING FORWARD in the arc........they absolutely are advancing forward in the arc WITH THE SHOULDERS........

http://i41.tinypic.com/5dui5g.gif

Once the bat has completed its turning rearward it is now going to start carring that force forward because the hands, as you mentioned were staying at the shoulder.

Again. This is simply NOT true. Angular momentum cannot be dissected........

Momentum is being carried FORWARD THE ENTIRE TIME........

At the point the barrel starts to move forward the hands are taken to the ball in this swing. The bat will continue to circle around the hands.
HYP

The point is the bat isn't "pivoting" at all to this point in this clip.......

The bat WILL pivot around the hands as it whips out into the sequence and it advances farther then the hands eventually. It could THEN be said to be "pivoting around the hands".

It just isn't pivoting around the hands at this point in the swing.......

http://i39.tinypic.com/209g7ro.gif

[HYP]

HYP,

You've definitely got (or picked up) an unusual way of thinking about this that in my opinion confuses cause and effect. I can agree with the idea that the hands are like a gunsight and shape the intention, but I think at times you ignore or even disregard the things that do the real work (e.g. the arms and body).

I don't know what the right metaphor is.

Maybe it's like a pilot (the hands) flying a plane (the body). The pilot is critical, but at the end of the day the plane does the heavy lifting. You seem to be so focused on the pilot that you're ignoring all the metal around him.

Or maybe it's like a bomb (the hands) on a plane (the body). The bomb finishes the job, but the plane gets the bomb in the neighborhood of the target. A bomb without a plane isn't much good (as is a plane without a bomb).

They are both critical and work in tandem.

I agree with they work in tandem. I never said they don't. IMO people take to much emphasis off of the hands.

My thinking is this the hands do not sync with the lowerbody but rather the lowerbody syncs with the hands. They still work together but IMO the hands are in control of the syncing.

Analogy I have used before. Wide receiver going up to catch a ball he doesn't think lower my COG, drive with my legs now jump and reach. Although we know this happens, we can see it on video. He si only thinking get my hands to the ball and his body does everything else to allow the hands to acheive their goal.

So, with that said if you know what the goal of the hands are the rest of the body will respond to help acheive that goal.

I know the hands are not the only thing that powers the swing. I know the lowerbody generates the majority if not all of the power. But I will say that I don't believe that the rotating shoulders power the swing. The power IMO comes from the seperation between the hips and hands and the syncing of the rear hip to the hands at "go"/"launch"

I will say one more time that IMO the hands play a bigger role then I see talked about here and I listen to what the PROs say they do more then what I have also read here.

HYP

[Mark H]

Nice work Chris. An example of an answer to the question of how does rotation in one plane power rotation in another plane is under any car in the form of universal joints.

[Mark H]

I agree with they work in tandem. I never said they don't. IMO people take to much emphasis off of the hands.

My thinking is this the hands do not sync with the lowerbody but rather the lowerbody syncs with the hands. They still work together but IMO the hands are in control of the syncing.

The brain is in control of the syncing.

Analogy I have used before. Wide receiver going up to catch a ball he doesn't think lower my COG, drive with my legs now jump and reach. Although we know this happens, we can see it on video. He si only thinking get my hands to the ball and his body does everything else to allow the hands to acheive their goal.
So, with that said if you know what the goal of the hands are the rest of the body will respond to help acheive that goal.

Whatever swing thought or cue helps you produce a good swing is fine. Coach still needs to understand reality.

I know the hands are not the only thing that powers the swing. I know the lowerbody generates the majority if not all of the power. But I will say that I don't believe that the rotating shoulders power the swing. The power IMO comes from the seperation between the hips and hands and the syncing of the rear hip to the hands at "go"/"launch"

The core does generate most of the power as you say. The shoulders mainly transfer power however they can develop some of their own. The range of motion in degrees of the shoulder complex adducting and abducting is under appreciated.

I will say one more time that IMO the hands play a bigger role then I see talked about here and I listen to what the PROs say they do more then what I have also read here.
HYP

The hands, anatomically, can grip. The wrists can flex. The elbow can bend etc. But if thinking about the hands or focusing on the feel of the hands helps you, fine. Again, use whatever teaching cue works for you, but you should understand reality if you are going to teach kids.

[HYP]

I'm sorry. I'm just at a loss to discuss things with someone who looks at the sky and says it's green. Besides, I'm tired, sick and cranky. Sometimes I have a lot of patience. Not so much when someone comes on with a combination of stunning ignorance combined with arrogance. Either one by itself is ok.

obviously you didn't read my posts very good. No ignorance or arrogance but I couldn't say the same for you. Just because I don't agree with you I am wrong. I know what color the sky is but you may want to ask someone to get your answer.



Funny. That's exactly what I was trying to say to you. Do you mean to tell me you came up with the idea the shoulders move because of the hands by yourself?

It's called body control. Being aware of ones body. Ever play basketball and have to shoot a lay up in traffic? Your body will make adjustments to what your hands have to do in order to get the ball to the basket. Your hands do not adjust to what the body is doing.

The reason I used basketball is because I am pretty sure you have never played baseball.



..........

[gwynnfan]

I think you are confusing cause and effect. Are you familiar with Adair's rock on a rope analogy and do you understand the physics behind the idea that the bat should be swung like a rock on a rope and thus why the greatest efficiency is achieved when the bat swings on a plane parallel with shoulder rotation? No grief. :)

Yes, it is also the same in a golf swing. I believe I do understand cause and effect. I do not believe the swing is started with the elbow. What I am saying is that to achieve a powerful, fluid proper swing. Most of the time plane adjustments have to be made. I believe when you stride you prepare to take your "stock" swing. As you track the pitch, you instinctively adjust your plane. I believe any change in angle of your spine and bat plane is caused by your mind/body preparing for your back elbow and arm straightening. I do not think is a teachable reaction. I do not think a batter can track a pitch and then say I have to adjust my spine or my shoulders. I think it is a product of repetition and ability. I believe in staying centered and in balance through finish. You have to adjust the distance your arms swing from your body to be able to square up the ball on the barrel. Does that make sense?

[BoardMember]

I would have to say that this argument is a huge sticking point with HI members.

The "dream world" that the hands stay still as the barrel arcs rearward proving "handle torque", "swivel", and who knows what else, has never squared, and simply isn't true.........

http://i41.tinypic.com/5dui5g.gif

[ssarge]

My thinking is this the hands do not sync with the lowerbody but rather the lowerbody syncs with the hands. They still work together but IMO the hands are in control of the syncing.


You can find dozens of textbooks on bio-mechanics that say the brain controls the body's core which controls the distal kinetic segments (arms, hands, etc.).

I think you'll be incredibly challenged to find ONE that supports your contention of the opposite.

Cues and reality, as always.

If cues work, they are good cues, for that hitter, on that day.

NOT to be confused with reality.

[HYP]

No it isn't. Not at this point in this clip...........

Then what is it turning around? Because it is turning.



The bolded part above is pure hogwash.......

How can you say the "pivot point" is not moving forward in this clip as the barrel arcs reward........? The hands ARE absolutely moving forward, with the shoulders......

I admit when I am wrong and I was wrong. what I should have said is the hands are not moving forward in relationship to the rear shoulder.

Oh OK. HI terminology to create confusion........You said you've been hanging out there right?

Yes I have, don't know how that affects this conversation.

IN ANY FORM OF A CIRCLE, there is only forward advance and backward advance...........The hands are either advancing forward or backward around the circle.

Please explain. I see an arc around the hands.

The fact that the top of the circle arcs, doesn't mean the hands are NOT ADVANCING FORWARD in the arc........they absolutely are advancing forward in the arc WITH THE SHOULDERS........

I agree. That is what I have been saying. The bat is arcing around the hands and the hands move the arcing bat to the ball.

http://i41.tinypic.com/5dui5g.gif



Again. This is simply NOT true. Angular momentum cannot be dissected........

Momentum is being carried FORWARD THE ENTIRE TIME........

I think this is in response to me saying the bat is being sent rearward but I don't know how to respond to the whole post including my responses so I can't see what I wrote. If it is I said rearward because that is the direction the bat is going. You could say there is only one direction but if I said forward you may think I meant straight ahead. You yourself in this post said the barrel arcs rearward.



The point is the bat isn't "pivoting" at all to this point in this clip.......

If not the hands then what?

The bat WILL pivot around the hands as it whips out into the sequence and it advances farther then the hands eventually. It could THEN be said to be "pivoting around the hands".

It just isn't pivoting around the hands at this point in the swing.......

http://i39.tinypic.com/209g7ro.gif

..........

[BoardMember]

..........

HYP, the term pivot infers that the bat is moving FASTER/FARTHER then the hands.

It that were the case, as Chris pointed out, the hinge angle at the wrist would open......It doesn't.

The bat is NOT pivoting "around" the hands..........Until very late.

Which is when you correctly point out that it moves forward faster then the hands into contact.........

I admit when I am wrong and I was wrong. what I should have said is the hands are not moving forward in relationship to the rear shoulder.

Then WHAT the heck is causing the "force" for the whip? You've just admitted the hands stay at the shoulders.......Yet you say the shoulders DON'T cause any force.......

The bat is NOT pivoting around the hands until the bat head accelerates faster then the hands........Much later in the swing leaving lag.........

It isn't making any sense.........

EDIT: I just picked up on this:

The bat is arcing around the hands and the hands move the arcing bat to the ball.

OK THEN.....GOOD. Arcing around the hands is simply showing a circular tragectory moving at the same speed.......I can agree with this........

"Pivoting" infers something completely different as I stated before.........

[Chris O'Leary]

Analogy I have used before. Wide receiver going up to catch a ball he doesn't think lower my COG, drive with my legs now jump and reach. Although we know this happens, we can see it on video. He si only thinking get my hands to the ball and his body does everything else to allow the hands to acheive their goal.

So, with that said if you know what the goal of the hands are the rest of the body will respond to help acheive that goal.

I agree.


I know the hands are not the only thing that powers the swing. I know the lowerbody generates the majority if not all of the power. But I will say that I don't believe that the rotating shoulders power the swing. The power IMO comes from the seperation between the hips and hands and the syncing of the rear hip to the hands at "go"/"launch"

But what is being separated? What is the point of the separation?

Simply separating the hips from the shoulders accomplishes nothing if it doesn't move the shoulders.

Why does Tim Lincecum come to this position?

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_HipsRotatingBeforeShoulders_TimLincecum_20 07_006.jpg

What does this accomplish?

[Chris O'Leary]

So my spy over at HI sent me this to help explain where HYP seems to be coming from...

(O'Leary)'s still trying to say that shoulder rotation allowed what Manny did against Marshall's curveball. Not what actually happened; the hands driving the shoulders. What his shoulders did on that swing had zero role in the outcome. They were just along for the ride, following the hands.

IMO it's absurd to focus exclusively on the hands and ignore the shoulders because the rotation of the shoulders moved the hands to the correct location.

1. The hands didn't move themselves.
2. Arm extension didn't move the hands.
3. If you compare the markers you can see the shoulders rotate.

IOW, the hands and shoulders form a combined system.

Maybe Manny was thinking "hands to the ball", but that was accomplished by rotating the shoulders (conscious or not).

To say the shoulders have no role in the swing is simply crazazy.

[HYP]

I would have to say that this argument is a huge sticking point with HI members.

The "dream world" that the hands stay still as the barrel arcs rearward proving "handle torque", "swivel", and who knows what else, has never squared, and simply isn't true.........

http://i41.tinypic.com/5dui5g.gif


No sticking point with me or is it with HI as I understand. I do not believe the hands stay still in one spot. See what I do believe is the torquing of the handle rearward, I understand the bat moves in one direction but for purposes of this conversation I will use rearward to set a visual. Hold on, While torquing the bat back towards the catcher keeps the hands at the back shoulder. The hands do move with the laterally tilting shoulders and they do sync with the hips.

This is how people get confused. Just like in an earlier post you said the bat goes rearward and then in the same post said a bat can only travel one direction and went on to explain that the direction a bat is moving is forward from initiation. See to me that is just stuff to confuse. IMO when people hear forward the do not think back towards the catcher first. To most I would think back to the catcher is rearward and forward is to the pitcher.

When I say the hands "not moving forward" it is in relationship to the rear shoulder.

HYP

[Deemax]

COSo my spy over at HI sent me this to help explain where HYP seems to be coming from...


What do you need a spy for? Just go there and read, its free for a month.

[jbooth]

No sticking point with me or is it with HI as I understand. I do not believe the hands stay still in one spot. See what I do believe is the torquing of the handle rearward, I understand the bat moves in one direction but for purposes of this conversation I will use rearward to set a visual. Hold on, While torquing the bat back towards the catcher keeps the hands at the back shoulder. The hands do move with the laterally tilting shoulders and they do sync with the hips.

This is how people get confused. Just like in an earlier post you said the bat goes rearward and then in the same post said a bat can only travel one direction and went on to explain that the direction a bat is moving is forward from initiation. See to me that is just stuff to confuse. IMO when people hear forward the do not think back towards the catcher first. To most I would think back to the catcher is rearward and forward is to the pitcher.

When I say the hands "not moving forward" it is in relationship to the rear shoulder.

HYP

There is no torquing rearward toward the catcher. There is a SMALL amount of torqing in SOME styles of hitting that flattens the bat from the plate side of the body to the back side of the body just a bit before shoulder rotation, but there is no pulling back toward the catcher with the top hand. And most of the action that flattens the bat, actually comes from the back elbow dropping and the front elbow raising. Not, from hand/wrist action. And, there is no lateral tilt, if, by those words, you mean tilting of the spine toward the catcher, or tilting the rear part of the clavicle toward the catcher, in relation to the spine. The back shoulder "tilts" down toward the plate as it starts to rotate.

Lateral tilt is an optical illusion in 2 dimensional viewing. Actually, what is happening is the spine is tilted toward the plate and when the shoulders rotate on that tilted plane, it appears that the back shoulder drops horizontally when viewed from the opposite side of the plate, but it doesn't. Also, the appearance of tilt mainly comes from the fact that the rear humerus head drops in the shoulder joint and the front humerus head rises up as the joints tighten in preparation to move the bat at the ball.

The change in position of each humerus gives the appearance of tilting, when there is actually no tilt of the spine rearward, or horizontal tilt of the clavicle. It is the change of position of each humerus, simultaneous with the rotation of the clavicle on a spine that is tilted toward the plate that gives the appearance of horizontal tilt.

Also, the appearance of the bathead being pulled toward the catcher comes from the fact that the bathead is moving from the front of the body to the back of the body at the same time the shoulders start to rotate and the back elbow is dropping. It's not being pulled by the hand, it is moving from the change of overall position of upper body parts moving together and the change of postion/angle of the hands.

[Chris O'Leary]

What do you need a spy for? Just go there and read, its free for a month.

I figured I wouldn't be admitted.

[dominik]

"How do horizontally rotating hips pull diagonally tilted shoulders around?"

Here's a golf vid indicating that the hips do not rotate horizontally, but the front hip comes also up a little("hip tilt").

http://www.golf.com/golf/video/article/0,28224,1595277,00.html

Could anyone of the experts observe this in a mlb swing?

[Chris O'Leary]

"How do horizontally rotating hips pull diagonally tilted shoulders around?"

Here's a golf vid indicating that the hips do not rotate horizontally, but the front hip comes also up a little("hip tilt").

http://www.golf.com/golf/video/article/0,28224,1595277,00.html

Could anyone of the experts observe this in a mlb swing?

The baseball swing is quite different.

[HYP]

So my spy over at HI sent me this to help explain where HYP seems to be coming from...

(O'Leary)'s still trying to say that shoulder rotation allowed what Manny did against Marshall's curveball. Not what actually happened; the hands driving the shoulders. What his shoulders did on that swing had zero role in the outcome. They were just along for the ride, following the hands.

IMO it's absurd to focus exclusively on the hands and ignore the shoulders because the rotation of the shoulders moved the hands to the correct location.

1. The hands didn't move themselves.
2. Arm extension didn't move the hands.
3. If you compare the markers you can see the shoulders rotate.

IOW, the hands and shoulders form a combined system.

Maybe Manny was thinking "hands to the ball", but that was accomplished by rotating the shoulders (conscious or not).

To say the shoulders have no role in the swing is simply crazazy.

This is being type on my blackberry so I hope it works. Look I read HI, never said I didn't. But this is my interpretation of the swing process. I understand you want to try to show that I am not thinking for myself because it will take away any of my credibility. Everything that I have presented in this thread is from my interpretation of the swing. Do I use cues, phrases, verbage that I hear elsewhere that makes sense to me, yes I do. But so do each and everyone of you.

When you infer that I am parroting the belief of HI then you challenge my character and integrity. Attack me not my information, nice.

If I am misinterpreting your intention then I appologize.

This is hard on my phone so I will finish later.

HYP

[Chris O'Leary]

I understand you want to try to show that I am not thinking for myself because it will take away any of my credibility.

To the contrary, I think you ARE trying to think for yourself, which is why we are still talking (and why this thread has been pretty darn good IMO).

[omg]

I think kids would learn better just watching good hitters rather than having to get exposed to the confusing verbiage. Imitation and maybe leave the middlemen (the analysts) out of it. Seems to work in the Dominican.

[Mark H]

....It's called body control. Being aware of ones body. Ever play basketball and have to shoot a lay up in traffic? Your body will make adjustments to what your hands have to do in order to get the ball to the basket. Your hands do not adjust to what the body is doing.......

Perhaps you could go back and clean up that quote thing. In any case, your brain adjusts the entire body to accomplish the goal which, in this case, is to put the round ball in the round hole. The goal is not to do something with the hands. The goal is external rather than internal.

[Mark H]

Yes, it is also the same in a golf swing. I believe I do understand cause and effect. I do not believe the swing is started with the elbow. What I am saying is that to achieve a powerful, fluid proper swing. Most of the time plane adjustments have to be made. I believe when you stride you prepare to take your "stock" swing. As you track the pitch, you instinctively adjust your plane. I believe any change in angle of your spine and bat plane is caused by your mind/body preparing for your back elbow and arm straightening. I do not think is a teachable reaction. I do not think a batter can track a pitch and then say I have to adjust my spine or my shoulders. I think it is a product of repetition and ability. I believe in staying centered and in balance through finish. You have to adjust the distance your arms swing from your body to be able to square up the ball on the barrel. Does that make sense?

Mostly. The parts bolded I have a problem with and the red part I agree is one of the adjustments for pitch location. Tilt over the plate being the other. Having said that, to be clear, when fooled or when it's the low inside you may have to do what you have to do. Can't employ the stock/standard swing all the time. But when you do get to because you anticipated correctly or because the pitcher made a mistake, it's often very bad news for the defense.

[1chapterahead]

Perhaps you could go back and clean up that quote thing. In any case, your brain adjusts the entire body to accomplish the goal which, in this case, is to put the round ball in the round hole. The goal is not to do something with the hands. The goal is external rather than internal.Why are some of you so upset about the hands? Our hands perform the finest of motor skills. They have been used to save lives, build/fix things and even wipe our childrens butts. Yet when it comes to hitting a baseball, you want to leave them home or at best compare them to a pair of vice-grips. When the pro's say they use their hands, it has to mean something, no?

[Mark H]

I think kids would learn better just watching good hitters rather than having to get exposed to the confusing verbiage. Imitation and maybe leave the middlemen (the analysts) out of it. Seems to work in the Dominican.

I agree there is more garbage being taught than good stuff. On average outlawing instruction might be a net positive. On average doesn't do much for the kid who can't seem to learn by emulation and didn't get lucky enough to stumble on an efficient way to swing the bat by themselves. So goofy instructors aren't going to quit instructing and and mom or dad still wants to help their kid reach their goals so there you go. As to the Dominican, if your goal is to let them all compete and pick out the best, good model. If your goal is for YOUR kid to reach their goals...

[Mark H]

Why are some of you so upset about the hands? Our hands perform the finest of motor skills. They have been used to save lives, build/fix things and even wipe our childrens butts. Yet when it comes to hitting a baseball, you want to leave them home or at best compare them to a pair of vice-grips. When the pro's say they use their hands, it has to mean something, no?

Because I'm interested in accuracy. Baseball has too long been mired in old coaches tales and oft repeated cues with a tenuous tortured connection to reality IMO.

[1chapterahead]

Because I'm interested in accuracy. Baseball has too long been mired in old coaches tales and oft repeated cues with a tenuous tortured connection to reality IMO.So the pro's aren't being accurate? I don't understand.

[beemax]

Why are some of you so upset about the hands? Our hands perform the finest of motor skills. They have been used to save lives, build/fix things and even wipe our childrens butts. Yet when it comes to hitting a baseball, you want to leave them home or at best compare them to a pair of vice-grips. When the pro's say they use their hands, it has to mean something, no?

Very well put.

[jbooth]

So the pro's aren't being accurate? I don't understand.

Often they are accurate in describing what they feel, and/or the concept of what they want to do, but they are rarely accurate in describing what actually happens per the laws of physics or from the study of human movement.

[beemax]

Often they are accurate in describing what they feel, and/or the concept of what they want to do, but they are rarely accurate in describing what actually happens per the laws of physics or from the study of human movement.

I agree, but here's the catch: If you understand the 'feel' but not the physics of it, are you any better than understanding the physics but having no feel?

You have to combine the two IMO to maximize your effectiveness as an instructor and/or coach. If you don't, I believe what you said above holds as much weight as if it were vice versa.

[1chapterahead]

Often they are accurate in describing what they feel, and/or the concept of what they want to do, but they are rarely accurate in describing what actually happens per the laws of physics or from the study of human movement.So they know what they feel, they know what they want to do and they can do it, but they are doing it wrong? I'm not trying to bust chops, I just want to know why all the best say the same things and how they are all so wrong but do everything right.

[Mark H]

So the pro's aren't being accurate? I don't understand.

They are very accurate about what they feel. Feel being individual, subjective and prone to inaccuracy.

[1chapterahead]

They are very accurate about what they feel. Feel being individual, subjective and prone to inaccuracy.I assume you instruct? If something in one of your students click and he/she turns to you and says "I was able to make that adjustment with my hands". Do you correct he/she?

[Mark H]

So they know what they feel, they know what they want to do and they can do it, but they are doing it wrong? I'm not trying to bust chops, I just want to know why all the best say the same things and how they are all so wrong but do everything right.

All the best don't say the same thing. That is reportedly the case in golf but baseball hasn't gotten there yet. Report on Bonds is, till Slaught showed him differently on video, he really thought he swung down all the way through contact. That swing thought and feel works for him and that's all that he needs to know. What elite hitters feel is certainly interesting but what the average kid does with that swing thought and feel is likely to be substantially different than what Bonds does with it both in quality and nature.

[jbooth]

So they know what they feel, they know what they want to do and they can do it, but they are doing it wrong? I'm not trying to bust chops, I just want to know why all the best say the same things and how they are all so wrong but do everything right.

No, they are not doing it wrong. They are obviously doing it better than most of the world, they are wrong from the standpoint that scientific analysis or just plain watching a video, doesn't match up to the words they used to describe what they did.

For instance, they say they swing down through the ball, yet there isn't one single swing in a game that shows the bat going down toward the ground at point of contact with the ball or after. If you do see one where that actually happens the result is a grounder or a pop-up in the infield, or a foul-ball toward the backstop.

[Mark H]

I assume you instruct? If something in one of your students click and he/she turns to you and says "I was able to make that adjustment with my hands". Do you correct he/she?

No not at all. Any given cue or swing thought may be golden any given day with any given hitter. I just want them to eventually understand reality and I REALLY want instructors to understand reality as a check against the really goofy things paid instructors teach kids that don't stand up under a cursory examination of elite hitters' video.

[Mark H]

No, they are not doing it wrong. They are obviously doing it better than most of the world, they are wrong from the standpoint that scientific analysis or just plain watching a video, doesn't match up to the words they used to describe what they did.

For instance, they say they swing down through the ball, yet there isn't one single swing in a game that shows the bat going down toward the ground at point of contact with the ball or after. If you do see one where that actually happens the result is a grounder or a pop-up in the infield, or a foul-ball toward the backstop.

I have to agree with Jim here.

[Mark H]

I agree, but here's the catch: If you understand the 'feel' but not the physics of it, are you any better than understanding the physics but having no feel?

You have to combine the two IMO to maximize your effectiveness as an instructor and/or coach. If you don't, I believe what you said above holds as much weight as if it were vice versa.

I don't think anyone would quibble with the idea that the point of instruction is shorten the process of a hitter learning what efficient and effective "feels" like to them.

[1chapterahead]

No, they are not doing it wrong. They are obviously doing it better than most of the world, they are wrong from the standpoint that scientific analysis or just plain watching a video, doesn't match up to the words they used to describe what they did.

For instance, they say they swing down through the ball, yet there isn't one single swing in a game that shows the bat going down toward the ground at point of contact with the ball or after. If you do see one where that actually happens the result is a grounder or a pop-up in the infield, or a foul-ball toward the backstop.So why do you suppose they think they are swinging down thru the ball? There must be a reason, sensation etc. And why does the thought of swinging down produce a plain centric swing?

[jbooth]

So why do you suppose they think they are swinging down thru the ball? There must be a reason, sensation etc. And why does the thought of swinging down produce a plain centric swing?

Because the thought of swinging down helps get the bat to the ball quicker, and it will keep the bat on a head on collison course with the ball. If they drop the hands before going at the ball, they will be late, and the bat will be going up TOO much at contact and they will eithe loop under the ball or hit it square but on a lazy, high-fly trajectory or catch the top of the ball and hit a top-spin grounder.

Many of the cues used by pros prevent a known BAD action, as opposed to describing accurately, what they did. The THOUGHT of swinging down prevents dropping the hands and/or looping at the ball, or trying to lift the ball in the air, but they don't actually swing down through the ball, they start the swing down at the ball, and then they naturally flatten out and go through the ball.

If a beginner is not dropping his/her hands and is not looping at the ball, then he/she doesn't need to be taught to swing down. I've seen idiot instructors take a kid who has a nice line-drive swing, and get them to swing down longer, and ruin their hitting. Now, instead of line-drives, they miss, pop-up or ground out, because the bat is crossing the ball's flight path instead of coming into it.

[1chapterahead]

No not at all. Any given cue or swing thought may be golden any given day with any given hitter. I just want them to eventually understand reality and I REALLY want instructors to understand reality as a check against the really goofy things paid instructors teach kids that don't stand up under a cursory examination of elite hitters' video.Agree 100%. I would not allow the indoor travel instructors to work with my sons hitting. Although it's a noble jesture to explain reality to your students, I think many have been quite successful living in thier fantasy land.:nod:

[jima]

Just wanted YOUR opinion.

Let me ask you this. If the hands do nothing but hold on to the bat and the shoulders rotate real hard doesn't it make since that the hands and bat will be dragged through the zone. The only way to get them out front is to continue rotating farther or stop the rotation and hope that the bat "flies off the merry go round". In this swing the bat swings around the shoulders and the only way to adjust plane is to lean or adjust the angle of the shoulders to get the bat on plane which there is no time for. The bat speed happens farther out front which makes it harder to adjust to off speed.

Now try turning the bat around the hands. First it will arc back towards the catcher as the hips are rotating. The weight of the bat going rearward helps keep the shoulders closed, along with lateral tilt, and the rotating of the triangle, creating seperation and you have still not commited to swing at the pitch. Now as the barrel has reached its farthest point rearward it continues to arc around the hands but now has changed diretion and is starting to move forward. This is when the upper body and lower body connect whipping the bat forward. The bat speed happens earlier, which will allow you to hit the ball deeper in the zone. now since the bat is arcing around the hands like I explained the hands have freedom of movement to take the barrel to the ball and not degrade bat speed because the pivot point of the bat stays around the hands.

Good luck on your quest for the truth,

HYP

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I don't claim to have studied the swing like Chris, BM, and many others who post here. I played in college and have 15yo who plays in HS. I've read about "tip and rip" which is easier for me to understand than "turning" the bat...are they the same thing? My son's coach does have him lean the barrel towards the pitcher, but the load is a one piece shoulder oriented move...the bat head moves a little towards the pitcher as a consequence of the load, not something he tries to do with his hands...I trust his coach, but I do run things by him that I learn here...I've also received some online help from JBooth and BM...two people that I trust, as much as one can, online. jima

[1chapterahead]

Because the thought of swinging down helps get the bat to the ball quicker, and it will keep the bat on a head on collison course with the ball. If they drop the hands before going at the ball, they will be late, and the bat will be going up TOO much at contact and they will eithe loop under the ball or hit it square but on a lazy, high-fly trajectory or catch the top of the ball and hit a top-spin grounder.

Many of the cues used by pros prevent a known BAD action, as opposed to describing accurately, what they did. The THOUGHT of swinging down prevents dropping the hands and/or looping at the ball, or trying to lift the ball in the air, but they don't actually swing down through the ball, they start the swing down at the ball, and then they naturally flatten out and go through the ball.

If a beginner is not dropping his/her hands and is not looping at the ball, then he/she doesn't need to be taught to swing down. I've seen idiot instructors take a kid who has a nice line-drive swing, and get them to swing down longer, and ruin their hitting. Now, instead of line-drives, they miss, pop-up or ground out, because the bat is crossing the ball's flight path instead of coming into it.This almost makes it sound like the pro's aren't too bright. They are told one thing yet do something opposite but correct. I tend to think these athletes know physics better than the scientists. They live the physics, perform the moves to make physics work and use feel as feedback in how to truely get into these optimal positions.

btw. I understand your point, just making a statement...

[jbooth]

I agree, but here's the catch: If you understand the 'feel' but not the physics of it, are you any better than understanding the physics but having no feel?

You have to combine the two IMO to maximize your effectiveness as an instructor and/or coach. If you don't, I believe what you said above holds as much weight as if it were vice versa.

Sure, the goal is to get them to do it right, and then have them remember the "feel" of the right action.

As, Mark said, if you know the proper physics and how the body moves it MAY help shorten the time it takes to get the student to execute a correct swing and then remember the feel. If you keep describing actions that are not accurate from a physics/body action perspective, it may take a long time before he understands how to make a good swing, and then remember the feel.

[Mark H]

Because the thought of swinging down helps get the bat to the ball quicker, and it will keep the bat on a head on collison course with the ball. If they drop the hands before going at the ball, they will be late, and the bat will be going up TOO much at contact and they will eithe loop under the ball or hit it square but on a lazy, high-fly trajectory or catch the top of the ball and hit a top-spin grounder.

Many of the cues used by pros prevent a known BAD action, as opposed to describing accurately, what they did. The THOUGHT of swinging down prevents dropping the hands and/or looping at the ball, or trying to lift the ball in the air, but they don't actually swing down through the ball, they start the swing down at the ball, and then they naturally flatten out and go through the ball.

If a beginner is not dropping his/her hands and is not looping at the ball, then he/she doesn't need to be taught to swing down. I've seen idiot instructors take a kid who has a nice line-drive swing, and get them to swing down longer, and ruin their hitting. Now, instead of line-drives, they miss, pop-up or ground out, because the bat is crossing the ball's flight path instead of coming into it.

Again I have to agree with Jim who has explained it well.

[Mark H]

Agree 100%. I would not allow the indoor travel instructors to work with my sons hitting. Although it's a noble jesture to explain reality to your students, I think many have been quite successful living in thier fantasy land.:nod:

Yes that works for them. But sooner or later they are going to have kids of their own or the number 9 hitter is going to ask them for advice. :)

[Mark H]

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I don't claim to have studied the swing like Chris, BM, and many others who post here. I played in college and have 15yo who plays in HS. I've read about "tip and rip" which is easier for me to understand than "turning" the bat...are they the same thing? My son's coach does have him lean the barrel towards the pitcher, but the load is a one piece shoulder oriented move...the bat head moves a little towards the pitcher as a consequence of the load, not something he tries to do with his hands...I trust his coach, but I do run things by him that I learn here...I've also received some online help from JBooth and BM...two people that I trust, as much as one can, online. jima


No one has a problem with that sort of loading sequence if the hitter can handle it without blowing up.

[Mark H]

This almost makes it sound like the pro's aren't too bright. They are told one thing yet do something opposite but correct. I tend to think these athletes know physics better than the scientists. They live the physics, perform the moves to make physics work and use feel as feedback in how to truely get into these optimal positions.

btw. I understand your point, just making a statement...

Some people are mathematical geniuses or musical savants. Others are brilliant at solving motor control problems like how to whack that ball with this bat even though the guy throwing it doesn't want me to. Different intelligences. Just because a guy can stroke major league pitching doesn't mean he can hold a discussion on Adair's ideas. Doesn't mean he can't either. In terms of doing, they certainly know more than a physicist. But that's only one form of knowing.

[omg]

Some people are mathematical geniuses or musical savants. Others are brilliant at solving motor control problems like how to whack that ball with this bat even though the guy throwing it doesn't want me to. Different intelligences. Just because a guy can stroke major league pitching doesn't mean he can hold a discussion on Adair's ideas. Doesn't mean he can't either. In terms of doing, they certainly know more than a physicist. But that's only one form of knowing.

Remember Pedro Guerrero? Brilliant hitter but, long story short, ran into some drug selling trouble after his playing days. His succesful defense: his tested IQ score of 80 meant he was too "dumb" to realize what he had been doing.

[Mark H]

We tend to categorize intelligence too narrowly as an SAT or IQ score I think. Lots of different kinds of intelligences IMO.

[omg]

We tend to categorize intelligence too narrowly as an SAT or IQ score I think. Lots of different kinds of intelligences IMO.

No doubt and Manny is the hitting genius of all geniuses. Him and Edgar Martinez.

[Chris O'Leary]

So they know what they feel, they know what they want to do and they can do it, but they are doing it wrong?

No, they are obviously doing it right.

But they often aren't actually doing it the way they THINK they are doing it.

As a result, when they talk about it and/or try to teach it they end up at least confusing people and worst case unintentionally misleading people.

[Chris O'Leary]

We tend to categorize intelligence too narrowly as an SAT or IQ score I think. Lots of different kinds of intelligences IMO.

I absolutely agree with this.

In a lot of cases athlete are very strong when it comes to bodily-kinesthetic intelligence and weaker in others.

There's also the difference between the conscious mind and the unconscious mind (aka "feel"). Hitters unconscious minds absolutely know how to hit the ball, even if their conscious minds don't.

Often, when people go into slumps it's because their conscious minds are overly active.

As a great man once said...

"Don't think, Meat. You'll only hurt the ball club."

[Mark H]

Why are some of you so upset about the hands? Our hands perform the finest of motor skills. They have been used to save lives, build/fix things and even wipe our childrens butts. Yet when it comes to hitting a baseball, you want to leave them home or at best compare them to a pair of vice-grips. When the pro's say they use their hands, it has to mean something, no?

I think Yeager was right when he said. "It's based on the laws of motion. The energy conserved will be moving the body at greater speed than the arms can catch up with. The body should be moving - in elite hitters - upwards of a hundred miles an hour. The muscles of the arms and the wrists do not have the capacity to create speeds of that nature on their own. They're basically along for the ride. All they must do is relax and allow that energy to be transferred. Any help from the hands, because they can't go that fast, will only slow down the bat speed."

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/20030116carroll.shtml

[ssarge]

No, they are obviously doing it right.

But they often aren't actually doing it the way they THINK they are doing it.

As a result, when they talk about it and/or try to teach it they end up at least confusing people and worst case unintentionally misleading people.

Which is why Don Slaught can have a conversation with Barry Bonds where Bonds SWEARS that he swings down THROUGH the ball.

And why when Slaught used RVP to demonstrate to Bonds that in fact, he swung upwards through the ball, basically on plane wth the pitch, and that all MLB players did, Bonds was absolutely astonished.

[Mark H]

I think what Griffey reportedly said- ""I dont think a whole lot about my swing .I just need to know where my barrel is all all times ."- makes a lot of sense to me since it's the barrel that you have to get to the contact point on time with speed.

[Mark H]

And I think Epstein was right when he wrote "Does a hitter have to know the role that flat -palm hitting plays inthe swing.I dont believe he does In the good rotational swing it happens automatically."

Now does that mean some handsy swing thought will never help a hitter? No. But first let's agree on what reality is.

[Chris O'Leary]

I think what Griffey reportedly said- ""I dont think a whole lot about my swing .I just need to know where my barrel is all all times ."- makes a lot of sense to me since it's the barrel that you have to get to the contact point on time with speed.

And the role of the hands and wrists is to help get the barrel of the bat to the right point in space at the right moment in time.

And that's about it IMO.

[Deemax]

COAnd the role of the hands and wrists is to help get the barrel of the bat to the right point in space at the right moment in time.

And that's about it IMO.


Is this more or less important than shoulder rotation?

Seems like getting the "barrel of the bat to the right point in space at the right moment in time" is a pretty important job.

[Chris O'Leary]

Is this more or less important than shoulder rotation?

Neither.

The are equally important.

If you have totally dead, rigid hands (e.g. connection taken to the extreme) then you have minimal adjustability. You might have some up/down adjustability due to tilt, but you're going to have little to no in/out adjustability and thus will get killed on the black.

If all you have is the hands, then you have minimal power.

So they are BOTH critical, but they (mostly) do different jobs.


Seems like getting the "barrel of the bat to the right point in space at the right moment in time" is a pretty important job.

Yes, but...

Reasonably active hands are a necessary but not a sufficient component of a good swing.

[Deemax]

COReasonably active hands are a necessary but not a sufficient component of a good swing.


I wont take your word for it.

The entire shoulder rotation thing honestly doesnt make sense to me when I swing a bat or a club.

Its possible that rotating the shoulders could be a good cue to a particular student, but its far from the standard when working with individuals.

[Mark H]

CO

Is this more or less important than shoulder rotation?

.

That's like asking which is more important, the motor or the transmission.

[Mark H]

CO

I wont take your word for it.

The entire shoulder rotation thing honestly doesnt make sense to me when I swing a bat or a club.

Its possible that rotating the shoulders could be a good cue to a particular student, but its far from the standard when working with individuals.

If your instructional methods work then they work. Reality is what we need to understand here IMO.

[Chris O'Leary]

The entire shoulder rotation thing honestly doesnt make sense to me when I swing a bat or a club.

Maybe it doesn't work for you, but it's what actually happens and it works for everyone I coach.

[jima]

No one has a problem with that sort of loading sequence if the hitter can handle it without blowing up.

His biggest problem is getting his lower body rotating as he shifts forward...I think. What is blowing up? Sounds like something I do. jima

[1chapterahead]

Okay, I'm back. Took little 1chapterbehind to the YMCA with the Personal Pitcher. They have racquet ball courts, great place to practice during the winter months in the NE.

I've read through the previous posts and this is what I'm hearing...
-If you're an elite athlete, it doesn't matter what/who/how you are taught, you are going to figure it out on your own if you work at it.
-I'm also hearing that really smart people will end up being horrible players because they think about things too much, but they will be wonderful coaches if they stick with it.
-You can tell an athlete that an orange is an apple, and as long as he associates a repeatable feel to that, don't ask him to bring Christmas desert.
-Scientists make the best BB coaches. :laugh:laugh

[Chris O'Leary]

The entire shoulder rotation thing honestly doesnt make sense to me when I swing a bat or a club.

Why doesn't it work for you?

How do you think you swing? All arms?

I'm honestly interested because shoulder rotation is at the core of my thinking.

[1chapterahead]

Why doesn't it work for you?

How do you think you swing? All arms?

I'm honestly interested because shoulder rotation is at the core of my thinking.

Really? The shoulders are it? interesting.

[Chris O'Leary]

Really? The shoulders are it? interesting.

Have you ever seen this overhead view of Pete Rose?

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Videos/Video_Hitting_PeteRose_Overhead_RH_Annotated_001.g if

Notice how the word "Rose", which is attached to his shoulders, rotates 90 degrees from launch through the point of contact.

Case closed.

[jbooth]

Have you ever seen this overhead view of Pete Rose?

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Videos/Video_Hitting_PeteRose_Overhead_RH_Annotated_001.g if

Notice how the word "Rose", which is attached to his shoulders, rotates 90 degrees from launch through the point of contact.

Case closed.

Yeah, and it dispells the ridiculous notion of the bathead arcing around the hands. The hands are leading the bathead the whole way to contact.

[omg]

Couple of swing plane questions:

1) If you are looking from the pitchers view and you measure the swing plane angle (the ground being zero degrees) what would be the ideal range that you would see from low pitch to high pitch (within a generous strike zone). My guess is 45 degrees on a low pitch to almost zero on a high pitch.

2) Should the swing plane be perpendicular to the spine in all cases?

Can you answer a similar question? If you are looking from the batter's viewat what angle should the barrel of the bat be at contact relative to the upright stem of a batting tee for a 1)low pitch,2)belt high pitch, 3) letter high pitch? Thanks.

[Mark H]

His biggest problem is getting his lower body rotating as he shifts forward...I think. What is blowing up? Sounds like something I do. jima

Let's say a kid has a pretty good no stride basic loading pattern swing or even a real good swing. But with this kid, when we add a stride or a tip or some such the whole thing turns to #$%^. That would be blowing up.

[Mark H]

Can you answer a similar question? If you are looking from the batter's viewat what angle should the barrel of the bat be at contact relative to the upright stem of a batting tee for a 1)low pitch,2)belt high pitch, 3) letter high pitch? Thanks.


http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=8fllcp2i01.lion_s

[1chapterahead]

Have you ever seen this overhead view of Pete Rose?

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Videos/Video_Hitting_PeteRose_Overhead_RH_Annotated_001.g if

Notice how the word "Rose", which is attached to his shoulders, rotates 90 degrees from launch through the point of contact.

Case closed.WAIT! I see a triangle....

[Chris O'Leary]

Yeah, and it dispells the ridiculous notion of the bathead arcing around the hands. The hands are leading the bathead the whole way to contact.

Do they even use overhead views over at HI?

They must not, because many of their ideas wouldn't withstand contact with even one overhead view.

[Chris O'Leary]

WAIT! I see a triangle....

This question has come up before...

Yes, there is a triangle in that clip. However, I think it's a different triangle than the one that Richard talks about.

My triangle is a an attempt to make clearer, and simpler, the concept of turning the box (and connection).

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Videos/Video_Hitting_PeteRose_Overhead_RH_Annotated_001.g if

Notice how Pete Rose just turns the triangle during his swing; how his hands maintain the same position relative to the back shoulder during the entire swing.

This makes the case that most of the work is done by the rotation of the shoulders and not the movement of the hands independent of the shoulders.

God bless Jack Mankin for introducing me to this clip and the concept of the circular hand path.

It truly opened my eyes.

[1chapterahead]

This question has come up before...

Yes, there is a triangle in that clip. However, I think it's a different triangle than the one that Richard talks about.

My triangle is a an attempt to make clearer, and simpler, the concept of turning the box (and connection).

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Videos/Video_Hitting_PeteRose_Overhead_RH_Annotated_001.g if

Notice how Pete Rose just turns the triangle during his swing; how his hands maintain the same position relative to the back shoulder during the entire swing.

This makes the case that most of the work is done by the rotation of the shoulders and not the movement of the hands independent of the shoulders.

God bless Jack Mankin for introducing me to this clip and the concept of the circular hand path.

It truly opened my eyes.Show me one of Bonds

[Chris O'Leary]

Show me one of Bonds

I don't know that an overhead of Bonds exists.

I can show you overheads of...

- Lenny Dykstra (hitting a HR to RF)
- Paul Molitor (hitting a HR to LF)
- Prince Fielder

I'm sure that others have other overhead views.

[Mark H]

More clips is better. :)

[Chris O'Leary]

Show me one of Bonds

Here's a high CF view of Bonds that shows the rotation of the shoulders pretty well.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Videos/Video_Hitting_BarryBonds_CF_High_001.gif

Watch the numbers on the back of his jersey rotate out of view as his shoulders rotate (and the word Giants on the front of his jersey rotate into view).

This isn't just lateral tilt.

Also, keep in mind that when looking at clips you have to slow them WAY down, as I have done with this one, to see what is actually going on. The human eye is simply too slow to see the things that really matter at full speed.

Also, do you know how to download an animated GIF to your machine and go through it frame by frame using QuickTime?

[1chapterahead]

Here's a high CF view of Bonds that shows the rotation of the shoulders pretty well.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Videos/Video_Hitting_BarryBonds_CF_High_001.gif

Watch the numbers on the back of his jersey rotate out of view as his shoulders rotate (and the word Giants on the front of his jersey rotate into view).

This isn't just lateral tilt.

Also, keep in mind that when looking at clips you have to slow them WAY down, as I have done with this one, to see what is actually going on. The human eye is simply too slow to see the things that really matter at full speed.

Also, do you know how to download an animated GIF to your machine and go through it frame by frame using QuickTime?Yes, Bonds is all shoulders too.:D
You can do that? How?

[Chris O'Leary]

Here's an overhead view of Lenny Dykstra hitting a HR to RF.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Videos/Video_Hitting_LennyDykstra_OH_HR_ToRF_1993_001.gif

Again, to see the rotation watch the letters on the back of his jersey.

That isn't just lateral tilt.

[Chris O'Leary]

Yes, Bonds is all shoulders too.:D

Hardly.

There's a ton of stuff going on throughout his body.

But his shoulders don't just sit there.

[1chapterahead]

Hardly.

There's a ton of stuff going on throughout his body.

But his shoulders don't just sit there.Neither do his hands.

[Deemax]

Again, to see the rotation watch the letters on the back of his jersey.

That isn't just lateral tilt.

More importantly watch Lennys belt... Then see what follows.

The shoulders are not the star of the show.

[Chris O'Leary]

Neither do his hands.

No, they absolutely move.

However, they are brought forward and around into the correct neighborhood by the rotation of the shoulders.

Maybe the intent of the hands tells the shoulders to rotate, but the shoulders rotate nonetheless.

[Chris O'Leary]

More importantly watch Lennys belt... Then see what follows.

The shoulders are not the star of the show.

No, his hips clearly pull his shoulders around (due to the creation and then the reduction of separation as the muscles of the core contract).

[dominik]

I think you guys are miscommunicating. What Chris is trying to say(I think) is that the shoulders do rotate. Deemax wants to say that the shoulder rotation is powered by the hips and not speeding up itself. I don't think that he's denying the existence of shoulder rotation.

[Chris O'Leary]

What Chris is trying to say(I think) is that the shoulders do rotate. Deemax wants to say that the shoulder rotation is powered by the hips and not speeding up itself. I don't think that he's denying the existence of shoulder rotation.

That's correct for me.

As for Deemax, I'm not sure, but I think you're correct.