Market Forces and the socialism of MLB

[tigers527]

I worked my way through the Teixeira thread and I noticed a lot of folks don't get it. Starting with the guy moniker Gordon Gecko. Gordon often refers to free market economics as the reason the Yankees win out on free agency. I challenge this fact. In the "free market" ANYONE could sign Teixeira and have him play against the Yankees. That is not true, the only folks that can sign Mark (cause I did not wanna type Teixeira again) are 1 of 30 teams. This is not capitalism in its true form, it is the Yankees taking advantage of a system of socialism.

Speculate if you will....Mark Cuban and Donald Trump get together and decide for who knows why, they wanna sign CC, Teixeira, and all the other FA. Even if they put together a viable MLB team. The team they assembled does not get to play the Yankees, unless MLB allows them into the league. SOCIALISM.

The reason you might want competitive balance might elude you during the glee of X free agent joining your team, is this not a league were it not for the other 29 teams? Eventually, there could be a day where no one goes to the 29 other ballparks as everyone sees the Yankees as unbeatable.

When I grew up the Pirates and the Royals were always strong teams, these days not so much. Folks can easily point to the Rays or the Twins about making it work with less than. However, the Royals have supplied the rest of MLB with solid/all star OFers for the last fifteen years. They should not be blamed, the system MAKES it hard for them. Let em fail, maybe. That does not solve a problem and you spite a good fanbase.

MLB is not capitalism, its socialism and as long as the other fans keep going to Yankee games, and non Yankee games the sport will continue. When we fans from the other 29 teams laugh at the Yankees not quite making it. We are quietly cheering socialism. While you moan about a failure of fake capitalism.

[johnnypapa]

That is not true, the only folks that can sign Mark (cause I did not wanna type Teixeira again) are 1 of 30 teams. This is not capitalism in its true form, it is the Yankees taking advantage of a system of socialism.

Well the red sox definitly could have signed him...jh just got hoodwinked that's all. So that makes two teams. We'll never know how many others could have unless they open the books but it is my contention that most, maybe all major league teams could have signed him. Some would have been taken a chance no doubt but it would have showed their fans they are trying and would have generated more fan base hence more revenue.


Speculate if you will....Mark Cuban and Donald Trump get together and decide for who knows why, they wanna sign CC, Teixeira, and all the other FA. Even if they put together a viable MLB team. The team they assembled does not get to play the Yankees, unless MLB allows them into the league. SOCIALISM.

Wouldn't your example be called a monoply which is exempt from anti trust laws?

Wouldn't the fact that the Yankees are forced to share their profits be socialism?


The reason you might want competitive balance might elude you during the glee of X free agent joining your team, is this not a league were it not for the other 29 teams? Eventually, there could be a day where no one goes to the 29 other ballparks as everyone sees the Yankees as unbeatable

As I look below I see you are using the 'baseball demise crowd' favorite poster teams...the Pirates and Royals. But you do know that seven different teams have won in the WS since 2001 right?


When I grew up the Pirates and the Royals were always strong teams, these days not so much. Folks can easily point to the Rays or the Twins about making it work with less than.

And, assuming you are talking about the 70s, the White Sox, Padres, Blue Jays and a few other teams were always weak. As I look at MLB organization today those teams are still active.

[YankeeDJW]

I worked my way through the Teixeira thread and I noticed a lot of folks don't get it. Starting with the guy moniker Gordon Gecko. Gordon often refers to free market economics as the reason the Yankees win out on free agency. I challenge this fact. In the "free market" ANYONE could sign Teixeira and have him play against the Yankees. That is not true, the only folks that can sign Mark (cause I did not wanna type Teixeira again) are 1 of 30 teams. This is not capitalism in its true form, it is the Yankees taking advantage of a system of socialism.

I'm not disagreeing with the main point of your post, but you seem to have some strange idea that capitalism means equal opportunity. It doesn't. The price of a Lexus in the mostly capitalist United States is much higher than many can afford; that's what the "free market" does. In a purely capitalistic system, prices are determined by the market forces of supply (which translates to a positive sloping curve - the higher the price the lower the demand) and demand (a negatively sloped curve - higher prices means lower quantity demanded). The intersection of the curves is the price you get. When you're dealing with limited supply (only one Mark Teixiera) then the price gets driven up as long as two parties are competing for the limited resource. The Yankees would've signed him for $1 million a year if there was no other demand because he would have no where to go, so he would take what he would get. But other teams did want him and drove the price up until eventually the Yankees were the only team that could/would pay for him. That is capitalism. Donald Trump can't sign Teixeira because the MLB is a closed economy: parties outside the system can't conduct transactions. It has nothing to do with socialism. Socialism would actually be a more "fair" system, in terms of benefitting the smaller-market teams, because its aim is equal distribution. Revenue sharing is the closest MLB is to it.

I don't necessarily agree with the system in place, but that's the basics behind it.

[AVA8]

Speculate if you will....Mark Cuban and Donald Trump get together and decide for who knows why, they wanna sign CC, Teixeira, and all the other FA. Even if they put together a viable MLB team. The team they assembled does not get to play the Yankees, unless MLB allows them into the league. SOCIALISM.

I dont follow this at all.

We have an American and National League because of capitalism. We have an AFC and NFC because of capitalism, though the NFL is more socialistic in structure, salary cap, etc. While MLB (the players and owners) might not let someone like Cuban or Trump make their own team whenever they want, Cuban and Trump are certainly able to take their money, build a stadium, pay players, grounds crew, etc and make their own team. They can even get other rich people together and make their own baseball league and sign anyone they can, just like we sold Razner to Japan. They are then able to say that their league is better (even if it isnt) and challenge MLB, should they want.

This is how we got the World Series in the first place. And the Super Bowl. And the NBA.

This wont/doesnt happen anymore because of market forces. There are too many teams as it is, evidenced by stadiums that arent full and teams that are unable to compete. There is no market for new teams or leagues; therefore, there aren't any.

Thats not socialism; its life.

[Mattingly]

I worked my way through the Teixeira thread and I noticed a lot of folks don't get it. Starting with the guy moniker Gordon Gecko. Gordon often refers to free market economics as the reason the Yankees win out on free agency. I challenge this fact. In the "free market" ANYONE could sign Teixeira and have him play against the Yankees. That is not true, the only folks that can sign Mark (cause I did not wanna type Teixeira again) are 1 of 30 teams. This is not capitalism in its true form, it is the Yankees taking advantage of a system of socialism.
I'm not an economist, so please expand on your thoughts of the differences between capitalism and socialism. My small Webster defines socialism as a government-owned method of shared wealth. With the luxury tax and revenue sharing, we already have shared wealth without federal intervention, and I don't see any US Government ownership of any MLB team.

Anyone can technically sign a player. Whether they will is another story. Did the Brewers actually intend to pay CC whatever they'd offered him? He's a lot better pitcher than a way overpriced Zito, but even if he'd agreed to $21.5m/yr x 6 yrs, would it be their plan to win at that cost?

Not all teams are able to pay a player $20m/yr, especially since agency naming rights may pay "only" $5m/yr. I also still wonder if some teams really want those players.

I believe that Boston could've signed Tex, but they have Youkilis at 1B, so he'd have to return to 3B. However, that may have looked like a block to keep him away from the Yanks. I believe that getting Sabathia, who they didn't compete for, would've benefitted them more and hurt the Yanks more.


Speculate if you will....Mark Cuban and Donald Trump get together and decide for who knows why, they wanna sign CC, Teixeira, and all the other FA. Even if they put together a viable MLB team. The team they assembled does not get to play the Yankees, unless MLB allows them into the league. SOCIALISM.
Cuban and Trump, and feel free to add Bill Gates to the mix for emphasis, would need a city which loves baseball and a market of surrounding areas to support their franchise. That and MLB approval, as well as working out which free agents, drafted players would go their way.

I don't see a new team, especially one formed from deep-pocketed baseball newbies, taking such a splash acquisition as acquiring Mark Teixeira. Wouldn't seem like such a wise business decision to me.

There are already 5 teams in each of the NL East & AL East. If you put a 6th team there, that may create a baseball imbalance which isn't related to any economic structure base. If put in another AL Division, their play vs the Yanks would be limited, and if in the NL, the only team playing the Yanks 6x per year is the Mets.


The reason you might want competitive balance might elude you during the glee of X free agent joining your team, is this not a league were it not for the other 29 teams? Eventually, there could be a day where no one goes to the 29 other ballparks as everyone sees the Yankees as unbeatable.
Please expand upon what you mean by competitive balance. By this, I want you to explain what MLB would have to do that it presently isn't doing in order to satisfy you that competitive balance is being adhered to.


When I grew up the Pirates and the Royals were always strong teams, these days not so much. Folks can easily point to the Rays or the Twins about making it work with less than. However, the Royals have supplied the rest of MLB with solid/all star OFers for the last fifteen years. They should not be blamed, the system MAKES it hard for them. Let em fail, maybe. That does not solve a problem and you spite a good fanbase.

MLB is not capitalism, its socialism and as long as the other fans keep going to Yankee games, and non Yankee games the sport will continue. When we fans from the other 29 teams laugh at the Yankees not quite making it. We are quietly cheering socialism. While you moan about a failure of fake capitalism.
I will be better able to reply to you after having read your response to this post.

Many thanks. :)

[Domenic]

Speculate if you will....Mark Cuban and Donald Trump get together and decide for who knows why, they wanna sign CC, Teixeira, and all the other FA. Even if they put together a viable MLB team. The team they assembled does not get to play the Yankees, unless MLB allows them into the league. SOCIALISM.

I'm not sure if this is a joke post or not, but this notion is not socialist anymore than it is any other form of government or organization.

If anything, this would paint the MLB as a monopoly, which has nothing to do with socialism.

[Mariano_Rivera]

Does it really matter whether its socialism or capitalism? Not to turn this into a political debate but does capitalism really work in its purest form?

[Domenic]

This thread is entirely political and entirely irrelevant to the Yankees and, possibly, baseball on the whole.

There is no form of government or economic system that works in its respective purest form... nor is there a form of goverment or economic system that exists in its purest form.

[clipper]

If other buisnesses and rest of baseball teams ran their business like the Yankees we would not be in this rescession.

Heck - I wanted to buy Tampa Bay.

Clipper

[RationalNYYfan]

I worked my way through the Teixeira thread and I noticed a lot of folks don't get it. Starting with the guy moniker Gordon Gecko. Gordon often refers to free market economics as the reason the Yankees win out on free agency. I challenge this fact. In the "free market" ANYONE could sign Teixeira and have him play against the Yankees. That is not true, the only folks that can sign Mark (cause I did not wanna type Teixeira again) are 1 of 30 teams. This is not capitalism in its true form, it is the Yankees taking advantage of a system of socialism.

Speculate if you will....Mark Cuban and Donald Trump get together and decide for who knows why, they wanna sign CC, Teixeira, and all the other FA. Even if they put together a viable MLB team. The team they assembled does not get to play the Yankees, unless MLB allows them into the league. SOCIALISM.

The reason you might want competitive balance might elude you during the glee of X free agent joining your team, is this not a league were it not for the other 29 teams? Eventually, there could be a day where no one goes to the 29 other ballparks as everyone sees the Yankees as unbeatable.

When I grew up the Pirates and the Royals were always strong teams, these days not so much. Folks can easily point to the Rays or the Twins about making it work with less than. However, the Royals have supplied the rest of MLB with solid/all star OFers for the last fifteen years. They should not be blamed, the system MAKES it hard for them. Let em fail, maybe. That does not solve a problem and you spite a good fanbase.

MLB is not capitalism, its socialism and as long as the other fans keep going to Yankee games, and non Yankee games the sport will continue. When we fans from the other 29 teams laugh at the Yankees not quite making it. We are quietly cheering socialism. While you moan about a failure of fake capitalism.
You explained how MLB is not capitalism, but you don't really elaborate how MLB is socialism. I don't really see the argument here.

[RationalNYYfan]

Does it really matter whether its socialism or capitalism? Not to turn this into a political debate but does capitalism really work in its purest form?
Yes it does

[Mariano_Rivera]

Yes it does

Care to elaborate? Why?

[White Knight]

I worked my way through the Teixeira thread and I noticed a lot of folks don't get it. Starting with the guy moniker Gordon Gecko. Gordon often refers to free market economics as the reason the Yankees win out on free agency. I challenge this fact. In the "free market" ANYONE could sign Teixeira and have him play against the Yankees. That is not true, the only folks that can sign Mark (cause I did not wanna type Teixeira again) are 1 of 30 teams. This is not capitalism in its true form, it is the Yankees taking advantage of a system of socialism.



You are dead wrong. Socialism punishes the "evil" rich, especially corporations. It supports government intrusion. The government steps in, to help the poor, hence the salary cap. Capatalism supports the notion that the rich can buy what they want, and those with less money can't.

A salary cap is big government at its worst. Government is not the solution to our problems. Government IS the problem!

[ShortStop]

In Socialism/Communism everybody is supposed to be equal. Well we are not equal. Get over it haters.

[Hysteria]

Its very simple the Yankees reinvest into there team every year. They also give 27 million dollars to small market teams. Which most owners put into their pockets. The Yankees aren't breaking any rules. They are just playing along with the system THAT ALL THE OWNERS AGREED ON. The system goes like this if you over spend we are going to make you pay for it. The Yankees say were do I sign.

It is not the Yankees fault that other team owners do not spend money on making their ball clubs better. The Yankees were HORRIBLE when CBS owned them. Lucky for me I wasn't alive. But this was right after mantle retired and CBS wouldn't spend much money at all. I'm just sick of every year hearing other fans complain and now other owners. Maybe the players should make less because no one is worth 160,180,or 200 million dollars to play ball.

[johnnypapa]

Its very simple the Yankees reinvest into there team every year. They also give 27 million dollars to small market teams. Which most owners put into their pockets. The Yankees aren't breaking any rules. They are just playing along with the system THAT ALL THE OWNERS AGREED ON. The system goes like this if you over spend we are going to make you pay for it. The Yankees say were do I sign.

It is not the Yankees fault that other team owners do not spend money on making their ball clubs better. The Yankees were HORRIBLE when CBS owned them. Lucky for me I wasn't alive. But this was right after mantle retired and CBS wouldn't spend much money at all. I'm just sick of every year hearing other fans complain and now other owners. Maybe the players should make less because no one is worth 160,180,or 200 million dollars to play ball.


You are correct except for the part about CBS spending money. There was no Free Agency system back then. What happened was Mantle, Ford and the veterans got old fast and the Yankees only had a few decent players in the minors and they weren't ready yet (Murcer, White). MLB also introduced the draft (specifically aimed at stopping the Yankees from signing players). CBS does get blamed a lot for those years and deservedly so to some extent but really it was only a few years that the Yankees were really bad. They had some good teams in the late 60s and early 70s it's just that the Orioles had great teams.

[Mariano_Rivera]

You are dead wrong. Socialism punishes the "evil" rich, especially corporations. It supports government intrusion. The government steps in, to help the poor, hence the salary cap. Capatalism supports the notion that the rich can buy what they want, and those with less money can't.

A salary cap is big government at its worst. Government is not the solution to our problems. Government IS the problem!

Right, but this is baseball isn't it? The only problem with socialism/communism is that it gives the government to much power and breeds corruption.

[RationalNYYfan]

Care to elaborate? Why?

Capitalism increases GDP by reducing restraints on human innovation and productivity. Capitalism does not need our government's help. It is guided by the people. Capitalism lets the people consume/buy/purchase goods freely without government intervention. Socialism is far less 'fair' than capitalism.

"You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help small men by tearing down big men. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down."
-Lincoln

Sorry, I've gone waaaay off the subject of baseball

[Mariano_Rivera]

Capitalism increases GDP by reducing restraints on human innovation and productivity. Capitalism does not need our government's help. It is guided by the people. Capitalism lets the people consume/buy/purchase goods freely without government intervention. Socialism is far less 'fair' than capitalism.

"You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help small men by tearing down big men. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down."
-Lincoln

Sorry, I've gone waaaay off the subject of baseball

Right, but pure capitalism doesn't work. You need some sort of balance which we`ve learned the hard way the past 20 years or so. Without some sort of regulation and guideline from a government/comissioner certain people will take advantage of the system and screw over the majority.

This thread was pretty much doomed from the start. I`m kind of surprised it hasn't been closed yet.

[RationalNYYfan]

Pure capitalism can sometimes be confused with free-market anarachism

I think that if this thread could be better suited in the non-sports section

[RationalNYYfan]

oh wow, nevermind. there isnt a non baseball section. i think im going to lobby for that

[Mattingly]

This could've been quite an interesting baseball discussion, but the thread starter, as much as I like the Motown fan, hasn't returned to answer any questions. Additionally, it's turned into a debate not strictly on baseball's financial outlook, but about capitalism vs socialism vs communism. Not exactly suitable for BBF, I believe.

I'm closing, unfortunately.