View Full Version : Epstein and Balance and Weight Shift
steve777
12-24-2008, 02:02 PM
I read a post on here about someone's idea that Epstein is emphasizing putting weight on the rear foot. That was my take on the post. I have Epstein's book "Mike Epstein on Hitting" and also attended a clinic. I have had to re-read some sections multiple times to get what he is saying but I think I have a good idea what he is saying to do.
Mike is saying that balance needs to be achieved during the swing. When striding, there is momentum going forward. If nothing blocks that momentum the batter will lunge forward. The front leg firms up to block some of that forward momentum and help to achieve fast rotation. To avoid lunging, he is saying dip the rear elbow and to tilt the body and bend the back leg, as needed based on the angle of the incoming ball, to put some weight back on the inner rear thigh. He's not saying maintain continuous weight on the back foot, he is saying to offset the forward momentum with some backward momentum.
kylebee
12-24-2008, 02:08 PM
This all sounds a lot like Dr. Yeager's front foot block/push theory.
BoardMember
12-24-2008, 02:11 PM
To avoid lunging, he is saying dip the rear elbow and to tilt the body and bend the back leg, as needed based on the angle of the incoming ball, to put some weight back on the inner rear thigh. He's not saying maintain continuous weight on the back foot, he is saying to offset the forward momentum with some backward momentum.
Amazing.......
How much is this "Jamba Juice" advise???????
steve777
12-24-2008, 02:16 PM
It's not my idea, but it does make sense, the forward momentum if it causes considerable lunging
needs to be opposed to not lunge.
Hargrave
12-24-2008, 02:31 PM
He's not saying maintain continuous weight on the back foot, he is saying to offset the forward momentum with some backward momentum.
I hate golf-to-baseball analogies because most of them are invented by old fat guys who golf and think they can transfer the swing they use to hit a hopped up driver and Pinnacle Gold 5500 300 yards to Junior's baseball swing.
But, one is useful here. What the OP is describing is a reverse pivot. It is a killer to any athletic movement requiring weight shift and rotation.
Epstein doesn't recognize that what he teaches promotes it. Other Williams followers make the same mistake. It comes from the Teddy cult. It comes from watching that beautiful left-handed swing, so ferocious it pulled his weight into the first base dugout, and looked real cool as he took off down the baseline. They concluded "Hey, back leg! Teddy is on the back leg and that faggy Lau swing is on the front leg, so let's ride the back leg."
Good hitters stride to something like balance and if things change from there, it certainly ain't backwards.
BoardMember
12-24-2008, 02:31 PM
It's not my idea, but it does make sense, the forward momentum if it causes considerable lunging
needs to be opposed to not lunge.
Of course adding an opposing force is true. But applying backward momentum implies just that. A reversal of momentum backwards.........
It's called a reverse pivot............At contact, this is disasterous......
Blocking forward momentum is NOT adding backward momentum in the swing.......
How much did he charge you for this "EXPERT" advise? Just curious.......
I see Hargrave was reitterating as I was writing.......He's right.........
steve777
12-24-2008, 02:49 PM
Epstein wants some weight back on the rear thigh to counter the potential lunging. He uses the analogy of a tether ball in his book.
If you throw the ball forward with some slack in the rope, as it travels it will eventually run out of rope. The running out of rope
is analogous to the front side blocking. The tether ball begins to rotate at this point. So it seems to me he is saying oppose the forward momentum of the body both with front side blocking and a shift of weight onto the inner rear thigh to generate more rotational velocity. Most definitely not
to oppose the angular velocity of your body around your spine, but rather to increase it.
FiveFrameSwing
12-24-2008, 03:17 PM
Amazing.......
How much is this "Jamba Juice" advise???????
BoardMember .... your post got me to laugh out loud.
Thank you .....
Greatly appreciate your help throughout the year.
Wish you and the family a Merry Christmas!
GetYourBestSwing
12-24-2008, 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by steve777
To avoid lunging, he is saying dip the rear elbow and to tilt the body and bend the back leg, as needed based on the angle of the incoming ball
The angle of the back leg deal with Epstein has always confused me.
Maybe I'm just not smart enough to figure that out at all. Hard enough to see the ball and swing let alone thinking about bending my back leg as needed based on the angle of the incoming ball.
steve777
12-24-2008, 03:48 PM
Take a practice swing and imagine a low strike coming. As you begin to swing dip your back shoulder and tilt back. Your back knee will bend unless you try hard to not let it bend.
Mark H
12-24-2008, 03:55 PM
I don't see any significant variability per pitch height in any individual hitter's degree of back knee bend or tilt back toward the catcher. I do see this. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis
I do agree Epstein's plan is built around stopping kids from lunging.
GetYourBestSwing
12-24-2008, 03:57 PM
Take a practice swing and imagine a low strike coming. As you begin to swing dip your back shoulder and tilt back. Your back knee will bend unless you try hard to not let it bend.
Then you should SAY tilt your shoulders.... not hinge the angle of your backleg or knee.
I understand what aspect hes talking about, I just couldn't learn or teach it that way.
Look guys. I said I wouldn't talk about Epstein on this site again because everybody freaks out and starts mis representing him.
Gotta say this, I have never heard Epstein say reverse momentum. He does say pull back with your head. He says allow the rear knee to drive the lead heel into the ground (sound familar)
He has mentioned, pretend there is a string from your front heel atached to your rear shoulder, as to allow the rear shoulder to be pulled down by the dropping of the lead heel.
See the rear knee push the front foot down? See the head get pulled back? See the tilt? granted it is slight because of the location of the pitch. Furthermore, if you've actually studied Epstein, can you see him pass through position 1, 2, and 3?
Again in this clip the pitch is up so the tilt is not as evident. IMO Pedroia seems to come down a lot so almost every pitch to him is up.
HYP
Look guys. I said I wouldn't talk about Epstein on this site again because everybody freaks out and starts mis representing him.
Gotta say this, I have never heard Epstein say reverse momentum. He does say pull back with your head. He says allow the rear knee to drive the lead heel into the ground (sound familar)
He has mentioned, pretend there is a string from your front heel atached to your rear shoulder, as to allow the rear shoulder to be pulled down by the dropping of the lead heel.
See the rear knee push the front foot down? See the head get pulled back? See the tilt? granted it is slight because of the location of the pitch. Furthermore, if you've actually studied Epstein, can you see him pass through position 1, 2, and 3?
Again in this clip the pitch is up so the tilt is not as evident. IMO Pedroia seems to come down a lot so almost every pitch to him is up.
HYP
The rear knee pushes the front foot down? It may appear that way but I don't get how this done. What I see is a guy with phenomenal balance and timing who gets away with over striding and moving his head a ton.
The rear knee pushes the front foot down? It may appear that way but I don't get how this done. What I see is a guy with phenomenal balance and timing who gets away with over striding and moving his head a ton.
omg,
sorry I think the head stays back by backside in this swing. This is very important. This hitter has much to learn from.
EL
The rear knee pushes the front foot down? It may appear that way but I don't get how this done. What I see is a guy with phenomenal balance and timing who gets away with over striding and moving his head a ton.
In other words the rear knee starts to come down and forward prior to front foot plant. The key is starts. I didn't say the whole movement is completed before foot plant but the feeling is that the rear foot puts the front foot down.
Which way do you see his head move? It doesn't move forward, it moves down as he lowers his weight and then pulls back at contact.
How do you define over striding? If you were to over stride wouldn't that disturb your whole swing? IMO he strides perfect for his swing. IMO it is not over striding if it works. He was after all Rookie of the year last year and AL MVP this year and I can guarantee you it wasn't all from having a great glove.
ShawnB
12-25-2008, 03:22 AM
I don't think Epstein has ever said to push the back knee forward. In his video he says it's the dropping of the front heel that triggers the swing and says you can believe in the back knee pushing forward or squash the bug and that the backside initiates the swing. He said in way, that says he doesn't believe in the backside mechanics, e.g. back knee driving forward.
When he first started on the internet, he did talk abut the legs bursting forward. I don't think he ever talked about this on his website, this was before he had his forum. You might find something on his forum, but I don't remember seeing/reading him talk about it this in his books, videos, CD Rom.
If you interpret him saying something in this nature, point out where he says it please.
This isn't over striding, there is a combination of carrying the front leg and little reaching at the end. He moves downward because he is starts taller on the backside (and keeps the leg a little straighter, during the stride), and his head movement downwards looks allot like a younger Griffey. In both hitters the head doesn't move forward that much, as compared to it's downward movement.
Over striding happens when the front side is in control, or the front leg. His backside is in control the entire time of his forward movement and downwards movement. And it's not so much riding the back leg as it is riding the butt. Most people call it riding the back knee, and this is a completely different feeling then riding with the butt/hips leading, completely different muscle groups used (or putting the emphasis on certain muscle groups).
In a few books that are based on data collection from the same source, they both say the average ML stride is 12-15 inches. One is Robson and the other is DeRenne. Which is to say the jab step was in the minority and the no stride during the data collection. This might have changed some, although if you measured how far the front foot moves forward, it is still true for many/most (?) hitters.
What Pedrioa and Griffey prove is you can still create a good load and unload without starting in a sitting position, stance. And with a taller/straighter back leg, both before and during the stride.
Most hitters go by "you must sit to hit", and the sitting happens before the stride and not so much during the stride.
In the 80's saying tall was popular and it carried over into the early 90's. Many taught staying tall, and some said to keep the shoulders level as well. There was also a misapplied science to the staying tall theory.
ShawnB
12-25-2008, 03:42 AM
OMG,
I agree with HYP, and if you don't understand this then there is a big hole in your understanding of the swing.
And when you said you don't understand how this is possible, along with calling Pedrioa swing as over striding, then I think it's safe to say you don't understand why the backside starts and sets the front foot down.
OMG,
I agree with HYP, and if you don't understand this then there is a big hole in your understanding of the swing.
And when you said you don't understand how this is possible, along with calling Pedrioa swing as over striding, then I think it's safe to say you don't understand why the backside starts and sets the front foot down.
You are correct: there are MANY big holes in my understanding of the swing. Regarding Pedrioa's head I was referring to the noticeable downward movement. My sense is that strides have SIGNIFICANTLY shortened in recent years-I think those guys studies go back a ways. How can I possibly criticize this mvp fabulous player? I'm just amazed that a relatively little guy can get away with all of the movement he does. I know he "rides the back leg" despite taking a considerable stride. Is that talent? I think it may be. Would you teach the Pedroia swing?
OMG,
I agree with HYP, and if you don't understand this then there is a big hole in your understanding of the swing.
And when you said you don't understand how this is possible, along with calling Pedrioa swing as over striding, then I think it's safe to say you don't understand why the backside starts and sets the front foot down.
We may be arguing semantics (my fault-I get loose: I like the distinction between riding the butt versus riding the back knee). But one thing I am sure about-the back knee or leg or hip does not "fire" before the front fooot or toe goes down. Doesn't happen and is not possible.
I don't think Epstein has ever said to push the back knee forward. When I worked with him and Jake what they said was to drive the back knee towards the instep of the front foot. Pretend that the back knee is forcing the heel down. In his video he says it's the dropping of the front heel that triggers the swing and says you can believe in the back knee pushing forward or squash the bug and that the backside initiates the swing. He said in way, that says he doesn't believe in the backside mechanics, e.g. back knee driving forward.
When he first started on the internet, he did talk abut the legs bursting forward. I don't think he ever talked about this on his website, this was before he had his forum. You might find something on his forum, but I don't remember seeing/reading him talk about it this in his books, videos, CD Rom.
If you interpret him saying something in this nature, point out where he says it please.
This isn't over striding, there is a combination of carrying the front leg and little reaching at the end. He moves downward because he is starts taller on the backside (and keeps the leg a little straighter, during the stride), and his head movement downwards looks allot like a younger Griffey. In both hitters the head doesn't move forward that much, as compared to it's downward movement.
Over striding happens when the front side is in control, or the front leg. His backside is in control the entire time of his forward movement and downwards movement. And it's not so much riding the back leg as it is riding the butt. Most people call it riding the back knee, and this is a completely different feeling then riding with the butt/hips leading, completely different muscle groups used (or putting the emphasis on certain muscle groups).
In a few books that are based on data collection from the same source, they both say the average ML stride is 12-15 inches. One is Robson and the other is DeRenne. Which is to say the jab step was in the minority and the no stride during the data collection. This might have changed some, although if you measured how far the front foot moves forward, it is still true for many/most (?) hitters.
What Pedrioa and Griffey prove is you can still create a good load and unload without starting in a sitting position, stance. And with a taller/straighter back leg, both before and during the stride.
Most hitters go by "you must sit to hit", and the sitting happens before the stride and not so much during the stride.
In the 80's saying tall was popular and it carried over into the early 90's. Many taught staying tall, and some said to keep the shoulders level as well. There was also a misapplied science to the staying tall theory.
I interpreted that as the back knee pushing the front foot down.
I agree it's more of a riding of the back butt but I use ride the rear leg. feel the pressure inthe rear hip.
HYP
We may be arguing semantics (my fault-I get loose: I like the distinction between riding the butt versus riding the back knee). But one thing I am sure about-the back knee or leg or hip does not "fire" before the front fooot or toe goes down. Doesn't happen and is not possible.
Is possible and does happen. The only thing would be is your definition of fire. The back knee does start to turn in and go down prior to toe touch. Notice the hips how the lead hip starts to move prior to toe touch.
HYP
Is possible and does happen. The only thing would be is your definition of fire. The back knee does start to turn in and go down prior to toe touch. Notice the hips how the lead hip starts to move prior to toe touch.
HYP
I completely disagree. Amazing how we can look at exactly the same video and come to different conclusions. Now the FRONT hip can open if a batter steps in the bucket or opens their stride foot but the back leg does nothing substantive until the front toe or foot comes down:the back needs something to brace against-it doesnt do some weird dance/ju-jitsu move on its own.
I completely disagree. Amazing how we can look at exactly the same video and come to different conclusions. Now the FRONT hip can open if a batter steps in the bucket or opens their stride foot but the back leg does nothing substantive until the front toe or foot comes down:the back needs something to brace against-it doesnt do some weird dance/ju-jitsu move on its own.
Look again. As he approaches toe touch watch the hips, watch the rear knee. If you watch with an open mind you will see the hips start to open and you will see the back knee start to bend and come down towards the front foot. This happens before the front foot touches down. This starts before toe touch. The majority of this happens after toe touch but it has to start prior to that. I really don't like the term toe touch but I think you know what I mean by this.
HYP
I completely disagree. Amazing how we can look at exactly the same video and come to different conclusions. Now the FRONT hip can open if a batter steps in the bucket or opens their stride foot but the back leg does nothing substantive until the front toe or foot comes down:the back needs something to brace against-it doesnt do some weird dance/ju-jitsu move on its own.
Another thing is I can stride forward and open my front foot and keep my hips from doing anything. So the hips starting to turn is happening because of something else and that something else is controled by the back side.
HYP
Another thing is I can stride forward and open my front foot and keep my hips from doing anything. So the hips starting to turn is happening because of something else and that something else is controled by the back side.
HYP
We will have to agree to disagree. I don't see it, I don't feel it, I don't get it. It's true that there is some movement on to the INSIDE of the back leg prior to the front foot landing. Anyways, I think the jist of what you are saying is innacurrate. What I think happens is that there is a simultaneous movement of both legs and hips PROBABLY, in my view, led by the front side, or as Epstein suggests, the front heel initiates. I would have thought with all of the slo-mo and science that someone would have nailed what generally happens. I stick to the notion though that the backside does nothing until at least the front toe comes down.
wrstdude
12-25-2008, 10:58 AM
We will have to agree to disagree. I don't see it, I don't feel it, I don't get it. It's true that there is some movement on to the INSIDE of the back leg prior to the front foot landing. Anyways, I think the jist of what you are saying is innacurrate. What I think happens is that there is a simultaneous movement of both legs and hips PROBABLY, in my view, led by the front side, or as Epstein suggests, the front heel initiates. I would have thought with all of the slo-mo and science that someone would have nailed what generally happens. I stick to the notion though that the backside does nothing until at least the front toe comes down.
Impossible?
Impossible?
What I see happenning here is that the front foot opens COMPLETELY, the front toes point toward the target thus opening the front hip but, as I said with hitting, it is the front side enabling the back to do its thing and not vice versa. Good video. When you write "impossible" what do you mean?
FiveFrameSwing
12-25-2008, 11:28 AM
Impossible?
I'm missing the point with this video clip.
Is it your assertion that the lower body mechanics for this overhand throw are the same as for hitting?
We will have to agree to disagree. I don't see it, I don't feel it, I don't get it. It's true that there is some movement on to the INSIDE of the back leg prior to the front foot landing. Anyways, I think the jist of what you are saying is innacurrate. What I think happens is that there is a simultaneous movement of both legs and hips PROBABLY, in my view, led by the front side, or as Epstein suggests, the front heel initiates. I would have thought with all of the slo-mo and science that someone would have nailed what generally happens. I stick to the notion though that the backside does nothing until at least the front toe comes down.
Have you ever done the numbers drill that Epstein teaches? When you start in the 1 position and then go to the 2 position do you drop your heel then move the rear knee forward or do they both happen at the same time. Now when you get to the 1 position, go to the 2 position with the emphasis on the back knee pushing the front heel down.
Now get into your normal stance stride forward and put an emphasis on the rear knee pushing the front foot into the ground and you've got it. The hips have to start early or you will never quite get there. You will always feel rushed, like you have to play catch up. Your swing will fell like you have to "muscle" up to acheive any power and you will become all arms and shoulders.
But again you can do what you think is right and that's fine too. Not everyone will see video the same way.
I would like to know how the front side gets the hips moving the way that Pedroias hips are moving. Can you please explain? Because like I've said earlier I can stride forward and open my front foot with nothing happening in my hips. But if I stride forward and allow the back knee to start moving down and in my hips will start to open.
HYP
But if I stride forward and allow the back knee to start moving down and in my hips will start to open.
HYP
Right. AFTER you stride forward you can "allow the back knee...". Anyways, it seems like a moot point which comes first. I'll try what you are asking if its in Epstein's book-I don't have the videos. I still think it is common sense that the back side is doing nothing until the front foot lands thus allowing the backside another object to brace against. Why don't you try to just pivot on your back foot without having your front foot touch the ground? Be careful that there is no expensive china nearby.
Mark H
12-25-2008, 05:25 PM
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=10&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9
Perhaps this clip will be useful in your conversation.
Have you ever done the numbers drill that Epstein teaches? When you start in the 1 position and then go to the 2 position do you drop your heel then move the rear knee forward or do they both happen at the same time. Now when you get to the 1 position, go to the 2 position with the emphasis on the back knee pushing the front heel down.
Now get into your normal stance stride forward and put an emphasis on the rear knee pushing the front foot into the ground and you've got it. The hips have to start early or you will never quite get there. You will always feel rushed, like you have to play catch up. Your swing will fell like you have to "muscle" up to acheive any power and you will become all arms and shoulders.
But again you can do what you think is right and that's fine too. Not everyone will see video the same way.
I would like to know how the front side gets the hips moving the way that Pedroias hips are moving. Can you please explain? Because like I've said earlier I can stride forward and open my front foot with nothing happening in my hips. But if I stride forward and allow the back knee to start moving down and in my hips will start to open.
HYP
I don't have the numbers drill-it's in the video. But in Epstein's book, on p.43 you will see that there is no difference in the back leg between photos A and B which show the stance and stride. Epstein himself says on the previous page "the hips are initiated in the stride with the FRONT[hiscaps,not mine]foot."
On p.49 are the exact same A and B photos showing no difference in the back leg albeit with a different hitter.
Epstein writes on p.48 "Is the player keeping his back leg bent when he strides and drops his heel? And "..."if the player's back leg (knee) is not at a 90 degree angle....". In my view, this is confusing writing; if someone were to take this literally they might, well, feel as you do about what happens sequentially. Is this where you get your notion?
The best thing Epstein focuses on regarding this element of the swing is that a batter "MUST regain the balance point in his stride" so that after the stride the feet are basically mirror images of each other (balance). The only difference between each side of the lower body after the stride (photos B) is that Epstein advocates a slightly open front foot.
glorydays
12-25-2008, 05:57 PM
I'm of the opinion, that the majority of the pros either pitching or hitting rotate into footplant. I see it in the RVP software...
-Junior
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=10&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9
Perhaps this clip will be useful in your conversation.
Thanks Mark H. I think video 17 in the above shows better what I mean. Who do you think is right in this argument?
I don't have the numbers drill-it's in the video. But in Epstein's book, on p.43 you will see that there is no difference in the back leg between photos A and B which show the stance and stride. Epstein himself says on the previous page "the hips are initiated in the stride with the FRONT[hiscaps,not mine]foot."
On p.49 are the exact same A and B photos showing no difference in the back leg albeit with a different hitter.
Epstein writes on p.48 "Is the player keeping his back leg bent when he strides and drops his heel? And "..."if the player's back leg (knee) is not at a 90 degree angle....". In my view, this is confusing writing; if someone were to take this literally they might, well, feel as you do about what happens sequentially. Is this where you get your notion?
The best thing Epstein focuses on regarding this element of the swing is that a batter "MUST regain the balance point in his stride" so that after the stride the feet are basically mirror images of each other (balance). The only difference between each side of the lower body after the stride (photos B) is that Epstein advocates a slightly open front foot.
Not saying I know more then you about what Epstein teaches and not trying to "name" drop but you have read a book. Like others on here, I have actually went to the mans facility and spent a week with him and Jake, one on one. So, what I got from being physically with them is the back knee drives the lead heel down.
So where I get my notion is from working with him and Jake and teaching his system.
HYP
Originally Posted by ShawnB
I don't think Epstein has ever said to push the back knee forward. When I worked with him and Jake what they said was to drive the back knee towards the instep of the front foot. Pretend that the back knee is forcing the heel down. In his video he says it's the dropping of the front heel that triggers the swing and says you can believe in the back knee pushing forward or squash the bug and that the backside initiates the swing. He said in way, that says he doesn't believe in the backside mechanics, e.g. back knee driving forward.
Apparently Shawn had lessons with Epstein. I think the above supports my view. Why else say pretend?
Originally Posted by ShawnB
I don't think Epstein has ever said to push the back knee forward. When I worked with him and Jake what they said was to drive the back knee towards the instep of the front foot. Pretend that the back knee is forcing the heel down. In his video he says it's the dropping of the front heel that triggers the swing and says you can believe in the back knee pushing forward or squash the bug and that the backside initiates the swing. He said in way, that says he doesn't believe in the backside mechanics, e.g. back knee driving forward.
Apparently Shawn had lessons with Epstein. I think the above supports my view. Why else say pretend?
The reason I say pretend is the rear knee can"t physically push the lead heel into the ground, it can't touch it. It is more of a feel but I guess you would have to get out and swing to know what it feels like.
Mark H
12-25-2008, 06:42 PM
Bagwell is one of a kind. I wouldn't key on what he does.
Mark H
12-25-2008, 06:47 PM
Thanks Mark H. I think video 17 in the above shows better what I mean. Who do you think is right in this argument?
I think I don't see a plus in getting into this fight. :)
Not saying I know more then you about what Epstein teaches and not trying to "name" drop but you have read a book. Like others on here, I have actually went to the mans facility and spent a week with him and Jake, one on one. So, what I got from being physically with them is the back knee drives the lead heel down.
So where I get my notion is from working with him and Jake and teaching his system.
HYP
I'd say you definitely know more than I do about what Epstein teaches. I dont know ANYTHING about what he teaches and you have some actual, significant experience with him. I've read the book but I base none of my understanding of the swing from what he has written. I agree with some of the stuff in his book and much I don't understand.
But can you address my post regarding his photos in his book? Epstein himself seems to consistently support my contention. I mean, we may just be arguing a split-second minute distinction. But I'm still sticking to my guns although I'd welcome being proven incorrect; it's all about learning. The back foot can't do ANYTHING without the support and without working in unison with the front foot. Try to begin back knee drive while standing on just one foot.
Mark H
12-25-2008, 08:52 PM
Does this back knee drive you speak of involve knee extension?
I think I don't see a plus in getting into this fight. :)
Not a fight but rather a discussion.
Mark H
12-25-2008, 09:52 PM
That's true, hence the smiley face. :)
I'd say you definitely know more than I do about what Epstein teaches. I dont know ANYTHING about what he teaches and you have some actual, significant experience with him. I've read the book but I base none of my understanding of the swing from what he has written. I agree with some of the stuff in his book and much I don't understand.
But can you address my post regarding his photos in his book? Epstein himself seems to consistently support my contention. I mean, we may just be arguing a split-second minute distinction. But I'm still sticking to my guns although I'd welcome being proven incorrect; it's all about learning. The back foot can't do ANYTHING without the support and without working in unison with the front foot. Try to begin back knee drive while standing on just one foot.
I personally do not own his book. I'm not a big fan of books because it is very hard to understand what is trying to be explained in writing. You only get still pictures which can be misleading. Since I worked with him, mostly Jake, I didn't feel it neccesary to get his book. I do have the DVDs.
This conversation probably will not go any where because I will not be able to convince you and you will not be able to convince me.
I will say this, try what I say and yes we are talking about a split second in time but to me it is a very important split second. See what is happening with the hands as the stride foot is approaching touch down. They are moving to the load position. If I can get my hips to start turning while my hands start to load then I will create seperation. I agree that the hips need the front foot to block but it doesn't block until the rotation has started. The "bulk" of rotation happens after front foot plant but the initial rotation is important to create a quicker more adjustable swing. IMO if you start after the front foot gets down then the majority of your weight will be on your front foot and you will tie up your hips, I would consider this to be shift then swing. Instead of shift and swing.
Good Luck,
HYP
Does this back knee drive you speak of involve knee extension?
Please explain extension. when I think of extension I think of straightening and if that is your definition the I would have to say no the back leg doesn"t extend. But if you're going somewhere with this then I'm listaening.
HYP
Mark H
12-25-2008, 10:03 PM
I'm making sure I understand OMG's definitions.
Look guys. I said I wouldn't talk about Epstein on this site again because everybody freaks out and starts mis representing him.
Gotta say this, I have never heard Epstein say reverse momentum. He does say pull back with your head. He says allow the rear knee to drive the lead heel into the ground (sound familar)
He has mentioned, pretend there is a string from your front heel atached to your rear shoulder, as to allow the rear shoulder to be pulled down by the dropping of the lead heel.
See the rear knee push the front foot down? See the head get pulled back? See the tilt? granted it is slight because of the location of the pitch. Furthermore, if you've actually studied Epstein, can you see him pass through position 1, 2, and 3?
Again in this clip the pitch is up so the tilt is not as evident. IMO Pedroia seems to come down a lot so almost every pitch to him is up.
HYP
Our discussion is based on "see the rear knee push the front foot down". I'm just saying in a common sense kind of way that the rear knee isn't doing anything until the front foot stride touches down. If you follow the thread you will see my basic reasoning. It's no big deal. It's ironic that I am arguing against what I think is a "feel/cue" notion-that's what this forum has done to me.
ShawnB
12-26-2008, 06:14 PM
HYP,
I agree with what you said about riding the back leg. The only thing I don't like and think is harmful is the cue to ride the back knee. Because it can potentially change the loading.
HYP,
I agree with what you said about riding the back leg. The only thing I don't like and think is harmful is the cue to ride the back knee. Because it can potentially change the loading.
If i said ride the back knee then I made an incorrect statement. I don't recall saying that but may have trying to get my point across. I use ride the back leg and create the feeling of staying stack over the rear hip.
ShawnB
12-27-2008, 05:03 PM
HYP,
I don't think you said, I just wanted to make a point of what I've heard some say. Like you, it think of it in the same manner.
OMG,
Now, don't twist my words. Epstein, I don't think says or puts to much emphasis on the back side in his material. What he said very early when he was just releasing his stuff, was at a point the "legs" burst forward. And this discussion included the back leg. And this was on a forum, not his own, before he had one. I just don't think in his material he is as clear, as in some of the early discussions I had with him when he was trying to spread the word, or spread his product. And I wouldn't use most of the pictures in his book as your evidence that backside doesn't do anything until the front foot drops.
In his video, Jake does his 1-2-3 drill with a little more weight forward on his toe and with the back knee turn forward and (down/in), in the number 1 position.
Why would the back leg start it, because that is where the loading begins and the force production. Therefor it starts to release before the front foot does anything or the front leg.
I looked for a few minutes for a gait analysis and perhaps one on running, one leg is in a load phase, while the other is in a different phase, and it is the hamstrings/glutes that give the real power in propelling the body in running. It's not the leg reaching/swinging forward that is creating the force. No matter what they say about driving the knees.
Derenne tries to say the front leg start rotation, and the front hip I believe. Here is someone who has looked at data, and IMO is completely wrong in what he says about the front leg and hip. I need to re-read it to see exactly what he said. But, it sounded something like your post.
I have a slow motion view of Pujols I'll show, now it's missing some important stuff most of the load, but should be self explanatory.
ShawnB
12-27-2008, 05:49 PM
OMG,
Since you have not seen Jake doing the 1-2-3 drill, then go to page 165 in Epsteins book and look at the picture of Jeff Kent in what Epstein calls his definition of a good, my mistake, he called it the "perfect" hitting position. Now compare that to some of the students who are just posing.
Where is the back knee and where is the toe and front heel?
http://home.comcast.net/~ben_2004/pujolsbackside.mov
callyjr
12-27-2008, 06:47 PM
[QUOTE=ShawnB;1386393]
Now compare that to some of the students who are just posing.
Where is the back knee and where is the toe and front heel?
Shawn I know you guys have not gotten this through your head but those students are 5 or 6 days into new drills. They are posing for you out of a drill, not a game swing. I can show you student after student that looks really bad while doing the drills but the drills do the job I am asking for the final product.
[QUOTE=ShawnB;1386393]
Now compare that to some of the students who are just posing.
Where is the back knee and where is the toe and front heel?
Shawn I know you guys have not gotten this through your head but those students are 5 or 6 days into new drills. They are posing for you out of a drill, not a game swing. I can show you student after student that looks really bad while doing the drills but the drills do the job I am asking for the final product.
Cally,
I may be mistaken but I beleive that Shawn was agreeing with Epsteins drills. You may have misunderstood or maybe I did.
OMG,
Since you have not seen Jake doing the 1-2-3 drill, then go to page 165 in Epsteins book and look at the picture of Jeff Kent in what Epstein calls his definition of a good, my mistake, he called it the "perfect" hitting position. Now compare that to some of the students who are just posing.
Where is the back knee and where is the toe and front heel?
http://home.comcast.net/~ben_2004/pujolsbackside.mov
All I am saying is that backside does nothing until the front toe lands. Since, Pujois, in your nice video, does not stride at all I don't see how it disproves what I am saying. On page 169, the picture also shows Kent after his front toe is down. Epstein writes next to the Kent picture"All he has to do is drop the front heel and everything flows correctly....but first the hitter must regain the balance point in his stride." If the back knee fires before the front foot touches down (not that it is even possible to do this on one foot) then there would be no balance.
ShawnB
12-27-2008, 09:56 PM
OMG,
For most Stride or no stride, we are looking at a point in the swing. And I don't know if Pujols moved his foot some, or how much of a shift he had, but regardless he is at the point where there is no more coiling/loading and the swing begins to unload.
Some hitters coil a little earlier, although we could find many hitters, who are at or close to the same point as Pujols in the clip.
This is the same thing I was trying to tell you that Epstein was saying before his material was even main stream. What he considers loading might be a little different, but what he was saying was that suddenly the legs would burst forward. Because he knows that there is that point in the swing when you go from the preparation phase to beginning and to a point of no return (you can still drop the heel and hold up).
You have the picture of Jeff Kent and you still want to disagree, that's fine, Of course everything is going to flow after Kent drops the heel because the backside has started to unload. So the front leg is going to block, stabilize, and then straighten from the force created in the swing.
What Epstein is trying to achieve with the front foot dropping cue, is to overcome being to dominate with the backside, muscling up the backside, and/or forcing hip rotation with the back leg/knee, or just forcing hip rotation, etc., etc.,.Trying to do to much before the heel drops.
There are many reasons why is advice is good. And how much actual rotation happens before foot plant isn't always that significant in many swings.
Although as you can see in the Jeff Kent picture, the back knee has pressed forward or started "before" heel plant. Same as in Pujols swing that you are calling a no stride, and I don't know if this was a no stride because he fluctuates with what he does with front foot and sometimes I think it depends on what he is looking for on that pitch.
I think I have the side view at regular speed for that swing for Pujols. And I could show hitters doing something very similar and reaching the same point, when the back knee starts forward.
It doesn't matter to me what you believe in or what you teach, but you better understand someones else's material and their reasoning behind their information.
On the next page, or actually the second, he shows Bonds in the perfect torque position. Front heel down, backside and heel lifted and turning and the bat in the lag or slot position. Of course Kent's swing is going to flow just like the picture of Bonds. And many research papers say the same thing that the front leg causes hip or body segmental rotation.
All I am saying is that backside does nothing until the front toe lands. Since, Pujois, in your nice video, does not stride at all I don't see how it disproves what I am saying. On page 169, the picture also shows Kent after his front toe is down. Epstein writes next to the Kent picture"All he has to do is drop the front heel and everything flows correctly....but first the hitter must regain the balance point in his stride." If the back knee fires before the front foot touches down (not that it is even possible to do this on one foot) then there would be no balance.
Go to thread titled "Question for PCR guys" post #33. Look at the clips that FFS posted and then make your decision if the back knee and hips can do anything before toe touch.
HYP
ChinMusic
12-28-2008, 05:15 AM
Can any of you geniuses actually replicate, on a consistent basis, the minute differences you are arguing over here against an 80mph fastball thigh-high over the center of the plate?
I doubt very much that you can. In which case, what is the point of this eloquent discussion?
ShawnB
12-28-2008, 06:30 AM
Cinmusic,
Yes I can, because there is no thought to dropping the front heel, on when the front foot gets down.
The front foot, toe, will land and be set down by the backside when the lowerbody starts.
There is no thinking about doing it, it happens automatically.
kylebee
12-28-2008, 06:44 AM
Can any of you geniuses actually replicate, on a consistent basis, the minute differences you are arguing over here against an 80mph fastball thigh-high over the center of the plate?
I doubt very much that you can. In which case, what is the point of this eloquent discussion?
I don't think Ted Williams could when he was getting up there in age either. For some strange reason, people ended up listening to him well after he died.
Can any of you geniuses actually replicate, on a consistent basis, the minute differences you are arguing over here against an 80mph fastball thigh-high over the center of the plate?
I doubt very much that you can. In which case, what is the point of this eloquent discussion?
Chinmusic,
Nice tone and you had better be able to do it or you won't get there. See what you do not understand is it is the same on every pitch. Wether you are taking or swinging. You had better get started or you're done.
I'm guessing you can't.
HYP
Can any of you geniuses actually replicate, on a consistent basis, the minute differences you are arguing over here against an 80mph fastball thigh-high over the center of the plate?
I doubt very much that you can. In which case, what is the point of this eloquent discussion?
Actually, Chin is correct in the sense we are arguing something nebulous, very minute, with no real practical coaching value.
I looked at the videos on the PCR thread. I'm being stubborn; you will have to show me something in which a hitter has yet to touch down the front toe/foot. Again, I'm sticking to the notion of common sense; the backleg, temporarily balancing the whole body while the stride foot is in the air, is doing nothing aggressive like "driving a front knee".
ShawnB
12-28-2008, 11:10 AM
OMG,
It's not a minute issue, like I said believe whatever you like. We tried to explain it to with going into great depth about the details, and doing so seems like it would be a waste of time.
So have fun, enjoy the game.
After your last post on what the back leg is doing and you still can't acknowledge the picture of Jeff Kent, there is no reason to discuss this any farther. Two things (in this isn't the only two tings that happen) that happen with the back leg, there is some negative work created from the coil (hip cock, which can create some forward movement) and then a positive move of the back leg knee when the swing begins to unload. We didn't say the back knee was driving forward the entire time.
There is nothing minute, about what happens from where the power/energy is generated from starting at the back foot.
Shawn