Justin Smoak

[kylebee]

Justin Smoak absolutely mashed for the Gamecocks and was drafted 11th overall by the Texas Rangers. Prior to that, the A's tried to sign him out of HS but failed to meet his bonus demands (Smoak wanted $1m but Oakland would stand firm at $950,000 - ouch).

I found this image of his swing as a lefty from his draft profile. What do you guys think? (The result was a stand up double.)

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/51821/smoakleft_medium.gif

[conky149er]

he seems to have a massive uppercut to me

[kylebee]

he seems to have a massive uppercut to me

The pitch is low (it comes in around his knees). He hit .360+ in his junior year at South Carolina.

[Knights Baseball]

I played with him and against him. I have never taken a good look at his mechanics before but i know that he swung the bt harder than anyone if have ever seen.

[BigGeorge]

I think JS definitely has a sweet swing. In fact, I think there has been a pretty significant rise in quality of D1 college baseball position players over the past few years. Becker, Wallace, Posey, Alvarez, Doolittle, Yonder, etc.

Here is another (and maybe better) look at Smoak's swing




http://hittingillustrated.com/library/JustinSmoak.gif

[kylebee]

I think JS definitely has a sweet swing. In fact, I think there has been a pretty significant rise in quality of D1 college baseball position players over the past few years. Becker, Wallace, Posey, Alvarez, Doolittle, Yonder, etc.

Here is another (and maybe better) look at Smoak's swing




http://hittingillustrated.com/library/JustinSmoak.gif

Awesome image! Thanks.

I also really like Smoak's present ability to hit and his future potential as well. He probably can't get much better, but he can add a bit more weight and probably increase his power.

[Knights Baseball]

He and Matt Weiters ( first round catcher out of Georgia Tech) played at the same high school in Stratford, imagine a high school pitcher facing them three four. I am pretty sure that he told me right was his natural side too.

[kylebee]

He and Matt Weiters ( first round catcher out of Georgia Tech) played at the same high school in Stratford, imagine a high school pitcher facing them three four. I am pretty sure that he told me right was his natural side too.

Yeah, I heard about that. Smoak was only noticed because scouts came to see Wieters then saw Smoak mashing the ball right along with him.

[dominik]

Nice swing. But is he dropping his hands a little below shoulder line? It seems a little looping. But who am I to criticise him, great accomplishment from him.

Is that your athlete Kylebee?

[Knights Baseball]

Yeah, he was four A player of the year two years in a row. He and Reese Haven would have both been first rounders out of highschool had they not told scouts it would take life changing amounts of money to keep them for south carolina

[kylebee]

Nice swing. But is he dropping his hands a little below shoulder line? It seems a little looping. But who am I to criticise him, great accomplishment from him.

Is that your athlete Kylebee?

:laugh :laugh :laugh

No, I wish. Not sure "whose" athlete he is, but if he played alongside Wieters, I know that HS coach must be mighty proud to have had them both and to have coached them.

[Knights Baseball]

*from south carolina. Reese wanted 1.7 they offered him 1.2 smoak wanted 1, they offered 950 like you said

[kylebee]

*from south carolina. Reese wanted 1.7 they offered him 1.2 smoak wanted 1, they offered 950 like you said

Seems really silly to not pony up $50,000 more to meet Smoak's demands, especially because he's the prototypical A's player - first baseman, big boy, walks a bunch and hits for a lot of power.

EDIT: It looks REALLY silly now, obviously. :laugh

[Knights Baseball]

Yeah, he was a beast. A bunch of us went to College of Charleston together and he would hit them out of the college fields with a wood bat as a rising junior. Didn;r hurt that he was already 6'3 about 195

[kylebee]

Is that your athlete Kylebee?

BTW, I don't like this line. No single coach "makes" a player what he is; they only guide the athlete along the journey. It requires the blood, sweat, and tears of the individual athlete to make it and it will be his/her dedication, skills, and talent (or lack thereof) that makes the player successful.

Coaches can take very little (if any) credit, IMO. If a player wants to dish out the credit, that's one thing, but claiming an athlete as "their own" is disingenuous at best.

[Knights Baseball]

There is no telling who all had a hand in his development. Down in Charleston, they hve a ton of coaches, baseball schools, travel teams, etc.

[Knights Baseball]

Kylebee
Do you think that the upper cut motion everyone is seeing is because of the violent way he seems to bring his back elbow down.

[dominik]

I think he's dropping his lead elbow and thus his hands a little.

[BigGeorge]

I think is basic mechanics are pretty darn solid. The one thing I have seen from him is the tendency to finish out-of-balance. Both his setup and his stride look to be a little long. When he has struggled, it is generally with change-ups.

[FiveFrameSwing]

This may seem a bit nit-picky, but there is an issue with the back elbow that Chris Yeager describes in his DVD "Back Elbow Function and Body Segment Rotation in the Elite Hitter plus Analysis".

http://www.groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/JustinSmoak_BackElbow.gif

[kylebee]

Kylebee
Do you think that the upper cut motion everyone is seeing is because of the violent way he seems to bring his back elbow down.

I think it's because it's a low pitch. The HI clip doesn't look like an uppercut to me.

I think is basic mechanics are pretty darn solid. The one thing I have seen from him is the tendency to finish out-of-balance. Both his setup and his stride look to be a little long. When he has struggled, it is generally with change-ups.

I think his stride is rather short, actually!

But yes, scouting reports show that he has trouble with solid off-speed pitches. Not surprising, though - good changeups are rare in college.

[kylebee]

This may seem a bit nit-picky, but there is an issue with the back elbow that Chris Yeager describes in his DVD "Back Elbow Function and Body Segment Rotation in the Elite Hitter plus Analysis".

http://www.groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/JustinSmoak_BackElbow.gif

I've seen that DVD about 20 times. Can you elaborate? I'm not really seeing it in Smoak's swing (as compared to, say, Barfield's).

[FiveFrameSwing]

IMO he shares the same issue as Barfield and is keeping the back elbow away from the body during the front leg push. I put a 3 second pause in the video clip ... notice the spacing between the rear elbow and his body. To me this looks very much like the issue Barfield had.

[Knights Baseball]

Could that space be because of his elbow not catching up with his body. With the elbow up, it seems like it never gets all the way down before he rotates and i feel that may cause the space.

But its hard to argue with
BA HR RBI
2008 .383 23 72
2007 .315 22 72
2006 .303 17 63

[BigGeorge]

I think his stride is rather short, actually!

But yes, scouting reports show that he has trouble with solid off-speed pitches. Not surprising, though - good changeups are rare in college.

I think I should more correctly said the both the combined stance and stride leave him a little long and unbalanced.

Going off his college work, I would say he is very capable of handling breaking pitches. Pure change-ups leave him quite vulnerable. Your right that not many young pitchers have developed changes though.


As for the back elbow. I don't see any of the "self-jamming" problem that Barfield faced. And he seems to get some nice extension.

[TDS]

Pure change-ups leave him quite vulnerable

I think this is true with all good hitters. IMO a good changeup is the hardest pitch to read and hit. As long as he can adjust to offspeed pitches that he's able to read he's in good shape.

[kylebee]

I think this is true with all good hitters. IMO a good changeup is the hardest pitch to read and hit. As long as he can adjust to offspeed pitches that he's able to read he's in good shape.

He has some problems with offspeed pitches. Not many, obviously (given his college stats), but it's something that he must improve on to make it to the show. He's not good enough to hit major league pitching yet, but then again, rare is the prospect who is.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Could that space be because of his elbow not catching up with his body.

The back elbow should come down, in and tight at this point. This allows the hands and arms to stay behind the rotation of the shoulders.

Keeping the back elbow away from the body during the front leg push is a swing flaw.

Having the back elbow stay away from the body during the shoulder turn can result in an arm swing ... or some might say not staying inside the ball.

It’s a tightness of the back elbow that helps the hitter to stay inside the ball.

[kylebee]

FFS,

I will try to find more video of Smoak. I think that it's an artifact of the video. Seems very unlikely that he would have such great success at the D-I level in a strong conference with such a major flaw.

[FiveFrameSwing]

That would be great Kylebee.

[kylebee]

That would be great Kylebee.

Always a pleasure to hear from fellow Yeager followers, especially ones as smart as you.

Where do you live in the PacNW? I'm still depressed about the Seattle thing.

[Knights Baseball]

I want to see a good video of Travis Snider. Any of you NW guys got one? I have heard stories about the lightower homeruns he hit in high school.

[kylebee]

I want to see a good video of Travis Snider. Any of you NW guys got one? I have heard stories about the lightower homeruns he hit in high school.

I was fortunate enough to see two games of Travis @ Jackson HS when I first moved here. They pitched around him a ton in the game, but I saw him take BP for the scouts. Unreal light tower shots, just like you were saying. Runs decently and has plenty of arm for RF.

But that swing, those shots he hit - wow. And it's not just his power - some people have the ability to center the baseball consistently, and Travis is one of those players.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Always a pleasure to hear from fellow Yeager followers, especially ones as smart as you.

Where do you live in the PacNW? I'm still depressed about the Seattle thing.

Wish we met up in Seattle.

I live in Portland, OR.

[HYP]

I think he's dropping his lead elbow and thus his hands a little.
This swing looks great. The first clip he appears to be going down for a low pitch that he may be a bit early on or slightly fooled on or both. Notice how his lead leg never gets locked out. He made an adjustment to the pitch he got. Couldn't have made the adjustment if the hands were not in control. Notice how the bat is turning around the hands. He starts the arc around the hands and then can adjust the arc by moving the already turning bat to to ball.

2nd clip he looks dead on.

HYP

[kylebee]

Wish we met up in Seattle.

I live in Portland, OR.

We'll have to meet up sometime in the future.

Someone on my site has been posting very interesting things about Smoak and Yeager hitters in general. "Teacherman" posits that all Yeager hitters shift their weight too early, causing adjustability problems down the line.

He posted this comparison GIF of Howard and Drew Macias of the Padres:

http://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/MaciasHoward1.gif

The entire discussion can be found here (http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/2008/12/23/700862/hitter-profile-justin-smoa#comments). Though I think that the Hanson Principle is important, I also think a corollary is necessary - you should find similar players to make comparisons. Drew Macias is a light-hitting shortstop who has a lot of plate discipline. Ryan Howard is a defensively-challenged first baseman who hits for tons of power but strikes out a lot and doesn't walk often. The two are virtual polar opposites!

Anyway, I am curious to hear your opinions on this, FFS (and anyone else, please).

[Knights Baseball]

I can understand part of what he is saying. If you push all your weight forward, you would have to be perfect to time the pitch. If you are way to early, it would be difficult to get any power into an off speed pitch. But do you think that the weight shift really has an effect on the power a hitter creates like teacher says?

[HYP]

I can understand part of what he is saying. If you push all your weight forward, you would have to be perfect to time the pitch. If you are way to early, it would be difficult to get any power into an off speed pitch. But do you think that the weight shift really has an effect on the power a hitter creates like teacher says?
IMO yes. If you shift your weight to your front foot then swing you are all arms and shoulders. The power from the lower body is gone. Although I see it in Smoak, it doesn't IMO seem to be that far off.

HYP

[Knights Baseball]

That is what i have always felt, but then i get on here and a bunch of people are talking about how all the pro hitters have there weight on their front leg. What part of the swing are they talking about when they say this.

[BigGeorge]

That is what i have always felt, but then i get on here and a bunch of people are talking about how all the pro hitters have there weight on their front leg. What part of the swing are they talking about when they say this.


One of my favorite hitters of all time. Would you say this is a slight front-foot hitter demonstration?

http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w=http%3A//mfile.akamai.com/31386/wmv/mlb.download.akamai.com/31386/open/members/clemente_r/clemente_roberto_hr_71asg_400.wmv&type=v_free&_mp=1

[Knights Baseball]

Yeah, there have been many greats that had weight on their front side. Ted williams also hit like that i believe. i was just wondering about some of the threads that talk about pros having 90 of the weight on their front side, where is this supposed to occur? They ussually talk about this at the same time as the back foot coming off the ground.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Where is one's "center of pressure" at contact?

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/contact_Picture%25208.png

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/AROD_at_contact.jpg

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/manny_contact_ex_for_hip_isolation_drill_finish.jp g


Take note that Pujols rear foot is off the ground .... so where is his "center of pressure"?

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/pujols_at_contact.jpg


At contact the "center of pressure" is clearly on one's front foot. Considering that during the negative move (gather, load of the backleg, etc.) that the "center of pressure" was on the back foot .... then there must have been a "shift" in the "center of pressure" somewhere between the "negative move" and "contact".

Towards the end of the stride, or "weight shift", there is a final push from the back foot ... a "shift" .... as in a shift in the "center of pressure". This signals a shift in center of pressure from the back foot to the front foot. This is evident by the actions of the back foot which come up on the toe and actually slide and apply no pressure at that point. Not all hitters will slide on the back foot or come off the back foot, but in traditional striders when the front foot is down the center of pressure is on the front.

[HYP]

That is what i have always felt, but then i get on here and a bunch of people are talking about how all the pro hitters have there weight on their front leg. What part of the swing are they talking about when they say this.
Someone here, other then me would have to answer the question as to what part of the swing.

IMO if you shift to the front foot then swing you can"t do what the greats do. The swing is underway before the weight shifts into the front foot. See I think what might be mis leading to some readers, including myself at times, is all of the scientific lingo and the fact that everyone seems to have a different interpritation of momentum and weight shift.

I'll try to explain my understanding in terms I can understand and hopefully you can invision or understand yourself. The weight/upperbody stays with the rear hip, the head stays back. As you stride forward the lead hip clears to give the hips a head start and a place for the rear hip to go(freedom of movement for the rear hip). As your rear hip is being fired, you are creating momentum into the front foot but not on the front foot. The weight doesn't actually shift to the front foot, it stays back. The reason the rear foot comes onto the toe or lifts it off of the ground is because of the momentum being stop by the front foot and it pulls the rear foot up.

This is how, in words, I would be able to understand how the lowerbody works. Some might disagree.

[HYP]

Yeah, there have been many greats that had weight on their front side. Ted williams also hit like that i believe. i was just wondering about some of the threads that talk about pros having 90 of the weight on their front side, where is this supposed to occur? They ussually talk about this at the same time as the back foot coming off the ground.
Yes I agree but what has happened before the weight gets to the front foot. The swing is already under way.

[Knights Baseball]

That makes more sense than what it sounded like they were saying, i could imagaine someone way out on the front foot.

[HYP]

Where is one's "center of pressure" at contact?

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/contact_Picture%25208.png

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/AROD_at_contact.jpg

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/manny_contact_ex_for_hip_isolation_drill_finish.jp g


Take note that Pujols rear foot is off the ground .... so where is his "center of pressure"?

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/pujols_at_contact.jpg


At contact the "center of pressure" is clearly on one's front foot. Considering that during the negative move (gather, load of the backleg, etc.) that the "center of pressure" was on the back foot .... then there must have been a "shift" in the "center of pressure" somewhere between the "negative move" and "contact".

Towards the end of the stride, or "weight shift", there is a final push from the back foot ... a "shift" .... as in a shift in the "center of pressure". This signals a shift in center of pressure from the back foot to the front foot. This is evident by the actions of the back foot which come up on the toe and actually slide and apply no pressure at that point. Not all hitters will slide on the back foot or come off the back foot, but in traditional striders when the front foot is down the center of pressure is on the front.


FFS,

See this is where I believe the non scientist gets confused. "center of pressure". The weight can still be back with the center of pressure being forward. See when people read weight shift they invision weight moving from one place to the other. I can stand on one foot and my weight will be over that foot and my center of pressure will be on that foot as well. But that is in a static position. Hitting is a dynamic position/balance. So I am not really shifting my weight from my back foot to my front foot but rather "transfering" my weight, through momentum "into" my front foot.

Enjoy these conversations with you. Does what I said make sense?

HYP

[FiveFrameSwing]

I won't get into your comment on "weight" for the moment ..... as we disagree somewhat where the weight actually is .... so let's move past that for a moment.

IMO Chris Yeager is usually careful to distinguish between "weight" and "center of pressure".

When CY speaks of "shift", as in "shift and throw", or "load, shift & throw" .... the "shift" is a "shift in the center of pressure".

[HYP]

Thanks for the clarification about the shift

[Knights Baseball]

Five,

Where do you think the weight should be. HYP and i both agree that we don't like a huge linear movement. What do you like to see? I am here for as much baseball theory as i can get my hands on.:D

[new2thesport]

Justin Smoak absolutely mashed for the Gamecocks and was drafted 11th overall by the Texas Rangers. Prior to that, the A's tried to sign him out of HS but failed to meet his bonus demands (Smoak wanted $1m but Oakland would stand firm at $950,000 - ouch).

I found this image of his swing as a lefty from his draft profile. What do you guys think? (The result was a stand up double.)

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/51821/smoakleft_medium.gif

What caused his front leg not to lock out in this picture? The other image has his front leg locking out and looks like all the good images that are posted here in this forum. What made the difference between image 1 and the other?

Thanks

[HYP]

What caused his front leg not to lock out in this picture? The other image has his front leg locking out and looks like all the good images that are posted here in this forum. What made the difference between image 1 and the other?

Thanks
To me it looks like he had to hold up just a bit, possible fooled/offspeed and had to adjust to get to the ball.

HYP

[Knights Baseball]

Seems that he was fooled a little and drifted toward the ball

[HYP]

FFS,

I would really like to hear where you think the weight is.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Five,

Where do you think the weight should be. HYP and i both agree that we don't like a huge linear movement. What do you like to see? I am here for as much baseball theory as i can get my hands on.:D

IMO, it might help that when you thought about where one's "weight" was located, that you thought in terms of where their "center of gravity" was located. At contact, the "center of pressure" should generally be on one's front foot, while their weight is behind their front foot.

As for your comment about a "huge linear movement" ... be careful to note what is moving linearly. As an example, look at the clip of Bonds below. Take note of his linear "positive move". I've marked this out in terms of the displacement of his head and in terms of the displacement of his belly button.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/bonds_stride2.gif

Note that Bonds is very good at obtaining a substantial linear positive move as measured in terms of the displacement of his belly button .... yet on a relative basis his head moves linearly much less.

I'd recommend that you study this closely. Understand this. This large linear positive move, with relatively little linear movement of the head, is in my opinion noteworthy.

Ask yourself what Bonds is doing to accomplish this.

Now ... notice Bonds' spine angle throughout his swing .... as measured as a line from his belly button to the center of his neck ..... see below.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/bonds_stride3.gif

Notice that Bonds changes his spine angle .... from an attack posture to inversion.

[new2thesport]

To me it looks like he had to hold up just a bit, possible fooled/offspeed and had to adjust to get to the ball.

HYP

Thanks! So it isnt really a flaw in the swing but rather just adjusting to the circumstances?

[HYP]

IMO, it might help that when you thought about where one's "weight" was located, that you thought in terms of where their "center of gravity" was located. At contact, the "center of pressure" should generally be on one's front foot, while their weight is behind their front foot.

As for your comment about a "huge linear movement" ... be careful to note what is moving linearly. As an example, look at the clip of Bonds below. Take note of his linear "positive move". I've marked this out in terms of the displacement of his head and in terms of the displacement of his belly button.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/bonds_stride2.gif

Note that Bonds is very good at obtaining a substantial linear positive move as measured in terms of the displacement of his belly button .... yet on a relative basis his head moves linearly much less.

I'd recommend that you study this closely. Understand this. This large linear positive move, with relatively little linear movement of the head, is in my opinion noteworthy.

Ask yourself what Bonds is doing to accomplish this.

Now ... notice Bonds' spine angle throughout his swing .... as measured as a line from his belly button to the center of his neck ..... see below.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/bonds_stride3.gif

Notice that Bonds changes his spine angle .... from an attack posture to inversion.


So where is the "center of gravity"?

I see the belly button move forward but notice, where you stopped the first clip, what his hips are doing. They are opening. In fact the lead hip is clearing prior to this.

If the head starts back and stays back then wouldn't his weight be back? To me it appears that his center of gravity is coming down.

I personally do not see this as a large linear move. But I will agree that it is linear but turns rotational.

Not to sound disrespectful because I do respect your posts and the search for the truth, but unless I mis read your post, you didn't tell us where you thought the weight was.

HYP

[Knights Baseball]

I understand. What do you think that this linear movement with little head movement does for the swing? Do you feel that it adds force to the swing, allows the body to move in a more efficent manner?

[HYP]

Thanks! So it isnt really a flaw in the swing but rather just adjusting to the circumstances?
Yes and no. It was an adjustment to the pitch but IMO he shifts his weight to early in his normal swing which leaves him at a disadvantage to off speed pitches.

IMO I will add that he uses his hands very good which allowed him the ability to adjust to this pitch.

HYP

[Knights Baseball]

It def. seems that bonds doesn't have as much pressure on his front foot as most hitters

[HYP]

I understand. What do you think that this linear movement with little head movement does for the swing? Do you feel that it adds force to the swing, allows the body to move in a more efficent manner?
IMO it aids in momentum and helps get the hips moving.

HYP

[FiveFrameSwing]

So where is the "center of gravity"?


The center of gravity is the center of an object's weight distribution, where the force of gravity can be considered to act. It is the point in any object about which it is in perfect balance no matter how it is turned or rotated around that point.

Assuming one is well balanced during their stride then their "center of gravity", or their "weight" can be considered roughly underneath one's head.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I see the belly button move forward but notice, where you stopped the first clip, what his hips are doing. They are opening. In fact the lead hip is clearing prior to this.


Where I stopped the clip includes a frame of the "shift", and hence you see the "rear" hip rotate. See Jim Booth's demonstration which helps explain how the "shift" (the "shift" in the "center of pressure" .... as in the final push from the back foot in the process of transferring pressure to the front foot) .... how this "shift" turns the rear hip.

Jim Booth: Presentation - rear hip rotation from the "shift" (http://wms17.streamhoster.com/firstpick/pbp.wmv)

The hip rotation resulting from the "shift" is immediately followed by the rotation obtained during the front-side block .... which is where the bulk of hip rotation takes place. That said .... the rotation taking place from the "shift" is important .... which I believe is the rotation you spoke of.

[HYP]

The center of gravity is the center of an object's weight distribution, where the force of gravity can be considered to act. It is the point in any object about which it is in perfect balance no matter how it is turned or rotated around that point.

Assuming one is well balanced during their stride then their "center of gravity", or their "weight" can be considered roughly underneath one's head.
Not to belabor the point. Then if Bonds keeps his head back then his weight is back, correct?

[FiveFrameSwing]

I personally do not see this as a large linear move. But I will agree that it is linear but turns rotational.


IMO when you see the belly button move a distance of half the distance between one's hips, then they have made a signficant linear positive move.

[Knights Baseball]

So instead, the load should be thought of as more the beginning of rotation instead of keeping your center of gravity back because instead of actually keeping your center of pressure on the back foot, your knee is supposed to bend and start the transition of the center of pressure to your front foot.

[HYP]

Where I stopped the clip includes a frame of the "shift", and hence you see the "rear" hip rotate. See Jim Booth's demonstration which helps explain how the "shift" (the "shift" in the "center of pressure" .... as in the final push from the back foot in the process of transferring pressure to the front foot) .... how this "shift" turns the rear hip.

Jim Booth: Presentation - rear hip rotation from the "shift" (http://wms17.streamhoster.com/firstpick/pbp.wmv)

The hip rotation resulting from the "shift" is immediately followed by the rotation obtained during the front-side block .... which is where the bulk of hip rotation takes place. That said .... the rotation taking place from the "shift" is important .... which I believe is the rotation you spoke of.
You and I have had this conversation before and you know how I interpret this. IMO the hips start rotating before this. IMO the lead hip starts to clear prior to foot plant, which gives the rear hip freedom of movement to be driven in any direction.

Yes the rotation taking place during the shift is what I am refering to.

HYP

[FiveFrameSwing]

Not to belabor the point. Then if Bonds keeps his head back then his weight is back, correct?

IMO Bonds keeps his head fairly well balanced. This is why when Teacherman tells you that he doesn't perform a "weight shift", that he isn't technically incorrect .... since Bonds' "center of gravity" isn't shifting much. Where the confusion comes for some is that there is an inference that Yeager is therefore incorrect .... when in reality Chris Yeager is speaking of the shift in "center of pressure" ... and Bonds has a definitive shift in his "center of pressure".

[HYP]

IMO when you see the belly button move a distance of half the distance between one's hips, then they have made a signficant linear positive move.
Thanks for clarifying. This way when you say large I understand what you mean because large means different things to different people.

[FiveFrameSwing]

IMO the lead hip starts to clear prior to foot plant, which gives the rear hip freedom of movement to be driven in any direction.


I believe Teacherman corrected you on this and explained that the action was on the "rear hip".

If you view the Jim Booth's demonstration, then it will be more clear why hip rotation starts here and what the action is that is causing this rotation.

[Knights Baseball]

How can the hips start turning before the foot plant when the foot plant causes some of the force that helps the hips turn. Wouldn't clearing the hips before the foot lands be "leaking some of the power"

[HYP]

IMO Bonds keeps his head fairly well balanced. This is why when Teacherman tells you that he doesn't perform a "weight shift", that he isn't technically incorrect .... since Bonds' "center of gravity" isn't shifting much. Where the confusion comes for some is that there is an inference that Yeager is therefore incorrect .... when in reality Chris Yeager is speaking of the shift in "center of pressure" ... and Bonds has a definitive shift in his "center of pressure".
I can agree with this. again the word "back" can be interpreted to different degrees. thanks again

[FiveFrameSwing]

Thanks for clarifying. This way when you say large I understand what you mean because large means different things to different people.

If you are familiar with the RVP analysis on this then you'll see that they consider much smaller positive moves, as measured by the displacement of the belly button, to be significant. In comparison Bonds' positive move is relatively large ... .... ... yet his head does not move much linearly .... .... .... which is a very nice characteristic.

[HYP]

I believe Teacherman corrected you that the action was on the "rear hip".

If you view the Jim Booth's demonstration then it will be more clear why hip rotation starts here and what the action is that is causing this rotation.
He may have corrected me but IMO the lead hip is still moving slightly out of the way just before the rear hip is fired.

[FiveFrameSwing]

How can the hips start turning before the foot plant when the foot plant causes some of the force that helps the hips turn. Wouldn't clearing the hips before the foot lands be "leaking some of the power"

Please go back and review Jim Booth's video demonstration. Jim has been a valued contributor here and IMO you are missing some good work if you overlook this.

What you should learn is that the "final push from the back foot" (i.e., the "shift") will cause the rear hip to initiate rotation.

Keep in mind that a well timed "shift" will take place before the front heel is in full contact with the ground. Therefore the rear hip will begin to rotate just ahead of the front side blocking process. This can serve to "clear the hips" as some folks describe.

The bulk of hip rotation will take place during the front side block .... which, IMO, is a portion of the swing that needs to be well groomed if you are going to play at a high level.

[Knights Baseball]

oh, i see what you are talking about. The leg bend that booth is talking about starts the hip rotating while the lead foot is in the air. That is why it looks like the hips are clearing before lead foot strike.

[mudvnine]

Prior to that, the A's tried to sign him out of HS but failed to meet his bonus demands (Smoak wanted $1m but Oakland would stand firm at $950,000 - ouch).

Interesting side note about the A's and their money offers to HS players, they seem to about $100,000 short.

Gary Brown was a top HS prospect in 2007 and during the draft Oakland contacted him before the 6th round and offered $650,000 when Gary and his parents had said $750,000 was their minimum. Oakland passed and then selected him in the 12th round and offered him $350,000; Gary declined and took his full ride to Cal State Fullerton and had a pretty good year at a perienial powerhouse.

Here's a link to his CSUF bio (http://fullertontitans.cstv.com/sports/m-basebl/mtt/brown_gary00.html), obviously a pretty good kid not only on the field but in the classroom as well.

His stats for his freshman season:
AVG(.292) GS-GP(61-55) AB(195) R(46) H(57) 2B(7) 3B(2) HR(5) RBI(27) TB(83) SLG%(.426) BB(18) HBP(10) SO(25) GDP(5) OBP(.374) SF(4) SH(9) SB-ATT(25-28) PO(87) A(72) E(8) FLD%(.952)

What happened to Money Ball?

[FiveFrameSwing]

He may have corrected me but IMO the lead hip is still moving slightly out of the way just before the rear hip is fired.

I understand this ... and on a relative basis you are correct ... ... ... but IMO Jim Booth, Teacherman, and Chris Yeager are all correct on this point .... .... .... the action taking place is due to the rear hip .... .... and is a result of the "shift" .... .... but, IMO, depending on exactly when one performs the shift it is possible to see/feel this in the front hip.

[FiveFrameSwing]

oh, i see what you are talking about. The leg bend that booth is talking about starts the hip rotating while the lead foot is in the air. That is why it looks like the hips are clearing before lead foot strike.

Thank you for viewing the video.

[HYP]

How can the hips start turning before the foot plant when the foot plant causes some of the force that helps the hips turn. Wouldn't clearing the hips before the foot lands be "leaking some of the power"
I don't consider it leaking if the rear hip stays loaded. IMO the rotation starts prior to foot plant and the front foot catches it. I do agree with FFS that the bulk happens after foot plant.

As the stride foot goes forward and you maintain a rear hip load as the front foot approaches toe touch watch how the lead hip seems to move away just a bit. Some will say that it is caused by the rear hip, which I guess i can live with but if you take swings and go by feel. To me it feels as if it is trying to move without the rear hip causing it. If it doesn't start to clear then the rear hip will be forced to rotate out away from it. If it moves out of the way then the rear hip is able to move more free in the direction you need it to.

[Knights Baseball]

that make sense. See, thats the reason i am here. Learn something new everyday.

[Knights Baseball]

This shift seems like it would also activate some of those powerful leg muscles better than a normal load and turn swing.

[HYP]

I understand this ... and on a relative basis you are correct ... ... ... but IMO Jim Booth, Teacherman, and Chris Yeager are all correct on this point .... .... .... the action taking place is due to the rear hip .... .... and is a result of the "shift" .... .... but, IMO, depending on exactly when one performs the shift it is possible to see/feel this in the front hip.
FFS,

Thanks for the video good stuff. Makes sense that that is what is mechanically happening.

So from this video could you say that the rear knee moving down and forward is actually causing the hips to move?

[FiveFrameSwing]

This shift seems like it would also activate some of those powerful leg muscles better than a normal load and turn swing.

The "shift" (i.e., the shift in the "center of pressure") is very important ... ... ... and if you get this right, in terms of timing and strength, then you're in good shape. Getting this "shift" well synchronized with the upper body is something I work on with my students in every hitting session. IMO it's just too important to not work on religiously. A lot of Chris Yeager's cues are centered on this "shift" in the "center of pressure" (not the "weight shift" as some would have you believe, but the shift in "center of pressure"). Get this right and you'll have helped with one of the greatest sources of force generation in your swing .... and you'll setup the second biggest source of force generation .... that being hip/shoulder spatial separation.

[LAball]

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/bonds_stride2.gif

I hate using Bonds as an example. He has superhuman strength and his swing is able to have short cuts because of it. Even a full grown 25 y/o adult is not physicaly able to replicate his swing due to Bonds strength. Even worse is most of the people on BBF 101 is gearing the swing for HS or younger hitters with minimal strength.

[HYP]

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/bonds_stride2.gif

I hate using Bonds as an example. He has superhuman strength and his swing is able to have short cuts because of it. Even a full grown 25 y/o adult is not physicaly able to replicate his swing due to Bonds strength. Even worse is most of the people on BBF 101 is gearing the swing for HS or younger hitters with minimal strength.
are you saying that a HS player should learn a different swing then a MLB player?

[Knights Baseball]

How do you teach this, do you tape hitter and show them or do you watch during the live swings. And the hip shoulder seperation you are talking about, are you talking about a hitter turning their shoulders in as the hip start?

[Knights Baseball]

I personally think the right swing needs to be taught to everyone, no matter what the age. That way the will have mastered the mechanics by the time they are in the upper levels, like highschool and college

[FiveFrameSwing]

FFS,

Thanks for the video good stuff. Makes sense that that is what is mechanically happening.

So from this video could you say that the rear knee moving down and forward is actually causing the hips to move?

Your welcome .... I enjoyed the discussion.

To answer your question, the knee moving down and forward is a signature of the "shift".

Think of it this way ....

You want to get this "final push" forward (i.e., "shift" in the "center of pressure") done BEFORE the lead leg blocks!

If you are really good then you can end this push to the front side by allowing the back half of the back foot to come off the ground before the front foot is completely down. This ensures a strong straight line push, and a complete momentum transfer.

Don't confuse the straight-line push to mean "no hip rotation" ..... as we've discussed, this final push does cause the rear hip to rotate (and technically, if the rear heel is not yet down .... then yes, this can be felt in the front hip).

To ensure that this move takes place the hitter should feel as if the back knee is pressing the front heel into the ground.

Evidence of this shift in the "center of pressure" can be found in movements of the back knee. Successful hitters will push their back knee well in front of their back foot during the stride and before the front foot has landed.

Here's a cue that you might experiment ....

Try to feel like your back knee is pushing the front foot into the ground. You'll want the back half of the back foot to come up before the front foot is completely on the ground. Give it shot and see if you get the feel ..... this is your "shift" you'll be working on ...... and IMO it's an important part of your swing.

[FiveFrameSwing]

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/bonds_stride2.gif

I hate using Bonds as an example. He has superhuman strength and his swing is able to have short cuts because of it. Even a full grown 25 y/o adult is not physicaly able to replicate his swing due to Bonds strength. Even worse is most of the people on BBF 101 is gearing the swing for HS or younger hitters with minimal strength.

If you believe Bonds' success is due to pure stength ..... weelllll, I'm not going to agree. IMO his form is exceptional and worthy of considerable study. He wasn't just strong .... he was highly efficient.

[FiveFrameSwing]

How do you teach this, do you tape hitter and show them or do you watch during the live swings. And the hip shoulder seperation you are talking about, are you talking about a hitter turning their shoulders in as the hip start?

We'll need to discuss this another time. Obtaining hip/shoulder spatial separation is a very important topic. How one obtains it, and when (i.e., the timing of this & the stretch reflex), is important. Take a look at the link below and you'll see why coaches often are heard shouting "hips before hands" and various cues like this ..... what the coaches don't realize is that these cues don't help the student initiate their swing with their hips ..... it's the building of a well timed clean Kinetically linked swing that leads to obtaining separation without the need for concious thought.

Hips Before Shoulders/Hands (http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/HipsBeforeShoulders/HipsLeadShoulders.htm)

[LAball]

.... he was highly efficient.

He was highly efficient because he was strong. He would not be nearly as efficient if he was normal. IMO

[Knights Baseball]

Well you have to remember that he won three of his seven mvp's while he was alot smaller than he is now.

[kylebee]

Wow, you guys posted a lot of information while I was sleeping!

Hopefully I'll get to review it all and absorb the content. Thanks a bunch.

[Berkman#17]

He was highly efficient because he was strong. He would not be nearly as efficient if he was normal. IMO

He's had the same swing his entire career. From ASU, to the Pirates, to the Giants.

He's always had the exact same efficiency. His 3 MVP's before any measurable changes to his body argue against your theory.

[GetYourBestSwing]

The second clip on the first page posted of Smoak is his best swing.... thats pretty. He is definitely getting his best swing off.

the first swing he is making an adjustment for getting fooled on a changeup i'd guess. Does a nice job with the pitch all things considered.

[jbooth]

So from this video could you say that the rear knee moving down and forward is actually causing the hips to move?

No. Keeping the knee at angle is critical to keeping the head in the same spot during rotation, but it supplies no power.

The main source of power that initiates rotation is abduction of the femur at the rear hip joint. I tried to convey that in the video when I stood on my back leg and explained how abduction shifts the body.

[LAball]

He's had the same swing his entire career. From ASU, to the Pirates, to the Giants.

He's always had the exact same efficiency. His 3 MVP's before any measurable changes to his body argue against your theory.

Before he got big, he did not start with his hands down near his hips, they where much higher

[Berkman#17]

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc33/WaxHeaven/red.jpg
http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/image/2006/05/07/015495573.jpg

You sure about that?

[HYP]

No. Keeping the knee at angle is critical to keeping the head in the same spot during rotation, but it supplies no power.

The main source of power that initiates rotation is abduction of the femur at the rear hip joint. I tried to convey that in the video when I stood on my back leg and explained how abduction shifts the body.

jbooth,

I liked the video that you put together. How would someone watching video see "abduction of the femur at the rear hip joint"?

HYP

[LAball]

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/bonds_stride2.gif

This shows him setting up with his bottom hand at his belt , then he loads to bring his hands near his armpits. I doubt you would tell any LL or HS batter to set up with hands near the belt

[wrstdude]

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/bonds_stride2.gif

This shows him setting up with his bottom hand at his belt , then he loads to bring his hands near his armpits. I doubt you would tell any LL or HS batter to set up with hands near the belt

There are some missing frames-that's not where he sets up.

Personally I don't care where a batter sets up if he's hitting the crap out of the ball or is demonstrating "good hitting mechanics".

[jbooth]

jbooth,

I liked the video that you put together. How would someone watching video see "abduction of the femur at the rear hip joint"?

HYP

Do you mean, in my video, or when watching video of a swing? I thought I showed it quite clearly in my video. It isn't so obvious in a real swing.

The muscles that connect the upper leg (femur) to the pelvic bone (hips), are the main power source. Some people call those muscle actions, "moving from the middle." I call it pushing off the back foot, except that you don't push with the lower leg muscles, or the thigh muscles. The force is felt at your foot, but the initial force comes from the glutes and other muscles in the upper leg/hip area.

Once your weight shifts to the front foot, you now feel pressure on the front foot and the front hip. Again, a lot of the work is done by muscles in the front hip/upper leg area, and also the quad (thigh) muscles of the front leg. The quads straighten the front leg, and the upper leg/hip muscles finish the rotation that was originally started by the abduction/push from the back hip/upper leg.

There is no pushing with the back foot, or pushing to straighten the back leg, and there is no twisting of the back leg (bug squish). The back leg twists and the back foot squishes the bug, as a result of rotating the hips from upper leg/pelvic muscle action. The back leg must stay bent as the force is applied to turn the hips in order to keep your head steady, and as soon as the hips get into rotation the back leg should relax and the front leg takes over. If the back leg straightens, it usually means you pushed with the quads (thigh) and you pushed too long, instead of just applying a burst from the hip and then letting the front side take over.

When you push by straightening the back leg, you slide sideways instead of rotating, and your head moves up and forward. You must keep the back leg bent and finish rotation while pressure is on the front foot in order to keep your head still and centered.

The front leg must accept pressure while bent and then straighen so that the rotation finishes and your head stays centered. If the front leg bends the head will go forward and rotation doesn't finish.

[FiveFrameSwing]

There are some missing frames-that's not where he sets up.

Personally I don't care where a batter sets up if he's hitting the crap out of the ball or is demonstrating "good hitting mechanics".

Bonds has a "hitch".

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/LeadArmExtensionBackToCatcher/Bonds_HandsBackInStride.gif

[RayR]

Bonds has a "hitch".

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/LeadArmExtensionBackToCatcher/Bonds_HandsBackInStride.gif


I was always told that a hitch was dropping your hands right before swinging:sorry:

[FiveFrameSwing]

Do you mean, in my video, or when watching video of a swing? I thought I showed it quite clearly in my video. It isn't so obvious in a real swing.

The muscles that connect the upper leg (femur) to the pelvic bone (hips), are the main power source. Some people call those muscle actions, "moving from the middle." I call it pushing off the back foot, except that you don't push with the lower leg muscles, or the thigh muscles. The force is felt at your foot, but the initial force comes from the glutes and other muscles in the upper leg/hip area.

Once your weight shifts to the front foot, you now feel pressure on the front foot and the front hip. Again, a lot of the work is done by muscles in the front hip/upper leg area, and also the quad (thigh) muscles of the front leg. The quads straighten the front leg, and the upper leg/hip muscles finish the rotation that was originally started by the abduction/push from the back hip/upper leg.

There is no pushing with the back foot, or pushing to straighten the back leg, and there is no twisting of the back leg (bug squish). The back leg twists and the back foot squishes the bug, as a result of rotating the hips from upper leg/pelvic muscle action. The back leg must stay bent as the force is applied to turn the hips in order to keep your head steady, and as soon as the hips get into rotation the back leg should relax and the front leg takes over. If the back leg straightens, it usually means you pushed with the quads (thigh) and you pushed too long, instead of just applying a burst from the hip and then letting the front side take over.

When you push by straightening the back leg, you slide sideways instead of rotating, and your head moves up and forward. You must keep the back leg bent and finish rotation while pressure is on the front foot in order to keep your head still and centered.

The front leg must accept pressure while bent and then straighen so that the rotation finishes and your head stays centered. If the front leg bends the head will go forward and rotation doesn't finish.

Jim .... that was an exceptional post.

I believe that clears up a lot of misconceptions.

Also leads me to believe that various 'camps' may be more similar than what one may initially believe. Your description of the back leg push being fueled by muscles in the upper leg & hip area was especially appreciated. Also appreciated the description of potential flaws attributed to providing the shift with different muscles.

Greatly appreciate you taking the time to post.

[HYP]

Do you mean, in my video, or when watching video of a swing? I thought I showed it quite clearly in my video. It isn't so obvious in a real swing.

The muscles that connect the upper leg (femur) to the pelvic bone (hips), are the main power source. Some people call those muscle actions, "moving from the middle." I call it pushing off the back foot, except that you don't push with the lower leg muscles, or the thigh muscles. The force is felt at your foot, but the initial force comes from the glutes and other muscles in the upper leg/hip area.

Once your weight shifts to the front foot, you now feel pressure on the front foot and the front hip. Again, a lot of the work is done by muscles in the front hip/upper leg area, and also the quad (thigh) muscles of the front leg. The quads straighten the front leg, and the upper leg/hip muscles finish the rotation that was originally started by the abduction/push from the back hip/upper leg.

There is no pushing with the back foot, or pushing to straighten the back leg, and there is no twisting of the back leg (bug squish). The back leg twists and the back foot squishes the bug, as a result of rotating the hips from upper leg/pelvic muscle action. The back leg must stay bent as the force is applied to turn the hips in order to keep your head steady, and as soon as the hips get into rotation the back leg should relax and the front leg takes over. If the back leg straightens, it usually means you pushed with the quads (thigh) and you pushed too long, instead of just applying a burst from the hip and then letting the front side take over.

When you push by straightening the back leg, you slide sideways instead of rotating, and your head moves up and forward. You must keep the back leg bent and finish rotation while pressure is on the front foot in order to keep your head still and centered.

The front leg must accept pressure while bent and then straighen so that the rotation finishes and your head stays centered. If the front leg bends the head will go forward and rotation doesn't finish.
jbooth,

My question was geared to watching game swings. I was wondering what someone would look for when analyzing video of someone hitting? How could you tell if "abduction of the femur at the rear hip joint" was taking place?

Just for the record I never stated that the rear leg straightens or extends. I did say that the back knee goes down and in, pushes the front foot into the ground.

[jbooth]

jbooth,

My question was geared to watching game swings. I was wondering what someone would look for when analyzing video of someone hitting? How could you tell if "abduction of the femur at the rear hip joint" was taking place?



I don't know that it's possible to actually see it. You just have to know what a good swing looks like.

Off the top of my head, I suppose if you see the back knee kick in before the back hip moves, that would not be good abduction. Or, if the back leg twists before hip movement, or if the rotation raises the head. Kind of like spiraling the torso and head upward. Or, if all the rotation is on the back foot with no shift forward.

Correct abduction will cause what some people call, "forward by turning." If your front hip is angled in as Ted Williams said was CRUCIAL, and you step forward and lead with the hips as he also said; and keep the back knee bent, the abduction will get a shift and turn going.

It is possible to abduct and extend, but that really messes up the swing. The front hip will fly open early, and your head and torso will rise upward, and most of the rotation will be on the back foot.

[HYP]

I don't know that it's possible to actually see it. You just have to know what a good swing looks like.

Off the top of my head, I suppose if you see the back knee kick in before the back hip moves, that would not be good abduction. Or, if the back leg twists before hip movement, or if the rotation raises the head. Kind of like spiraling the torso and head upward. Or, if all the rotation is on the back foot with no shift forward.

Correct abduction will cause what some people call, "forward by turning." If your front hip is angled in as Ted Williams said was CRUCIAL, and you step forward and lead with the hips as he also said; and keep the back knee bent, the abduction will get a shift and turn going.

It is possible to abduct and extend, but that really messes up the swing. The front hip will fly open early, and your head and torso will rise upward, and most of the rotation will be on the back foot.
Thanks for the explanation. If I am understanding you correctly then this would be what I am trying to explain. The rear knee is turning in, not a turning of the rear foot (squish the bug), The rear foot is more of a roll onto the instep. As the knee starts in the rear hip is going with it and IMO this starts just before the front foot touches down.If I am wrong please correct me.

Thanks,

HYP

[Berkman#17]

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/bonds_stride2.gif

This shows him setting up with his bottom hand at his belt , then he loads to bring his hands near his armpits. I doubt you would tell any LL or HS batter to set up with hands near the belt

Wrong again. As HYP stated, he drops his hands to that point, then raises them. That is not where he sets up.

[jbooth]

Thanks for the explanation. If I am understanding you correctly then this would be what I am trying to explain. The rear knee is turning in, not a turning of the rear foot (squish the bug), The rear foot is more of a roll onto the instep. As the knee starts in the rear hip is going with it and IMO this starts just before the front foot touches down.If I am wrong please correct me.

Thanks,

HYP

I think you have it right.

[Chris O'Leary]

Bonds has a "hitch".

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/LeadArmExtensionBackToCatcher/Bonds_HandsBackInStride.gif

This isn't a true hitch because it happens before his front heel plants.

Therefore it (obviously) isn't bad.

[LAball]

I would consider set up position to be right before load position and load position leads to launch position, which is at heel plant.

[Berkman#17]

I would consider set up position to be right before load position and load position leads to launch position, which is at heel plant.

And I would consider that wrong.......again.