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View Full Version : Top 100 (now 200) Pitchers Phase 2 Tier 10: Choosing Tier 10


jjpm74
12-23-2008, 09:16 AM
Here we have it. The final Tier of phase 2. As with the other tiers, This is a vote for 20!

Doyle Alexander
Red Ames
Chet Brewer
Charlie Buffinton
Chris Carpenter
Spud Chandler
Jack Coombs
Mort Cooper
Larry Corcoran#
Jim Creighton
Candy Cummings#+
Nig Cuppy
Paul Derringer
Dizzy Dismukes
Doug Drabek
Dave Foutz
Kid Gleason
Fred Goldsmith
John Hiller
Ken Holtzman
Charlie Hough
Bill Jackman#
Larry Jackson
Mark Langston
Max Lanier
Ed Lopat
Jim Maloney
Max Manning
Firpo Marberry=
Bobby Mathews
Dick McBride
Lindy McDaniel
Denny McLain#
Andy Messersmith
Orval Overall
Joe Niekro
Camillo Pascual
Ron Perranoski
Double Duty Radcliffe
Jerry Reuss
Kenny Rogers
Eddie Rommell
Charlie Root
Nap Rucker
Jason Schmidt
Curt Simmons
Mario Soto
Mel Stottlemyre
Jack Stivetts
Rick Sutcliffe
George Uhle
Johnny Van Der Meer
Tim Wakefield
Rube Walberg
John Ward#+
John Wetteland
Doc White
Will White
Earl Whitehill
Jim Whitney
Nip Winters#
Carlos Zambrano

# Denotes preliminary round winner
+ Denotes a member of the NBHoFM
= Given his unique standing for his era, Firpo Marberry was granted a special exemption for Tier 10.

Please vote for 20!

jjpm74
12-23-2008, 09:17 AM
Links to preliminary rounds and related projects:

Phase 1 Threads:

Pre-1893 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78102)
1893-1919 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78755)
1920-1945 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79250)
NeL and Pre-NeL (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79656)
1946-1968 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79664)
1969-1985 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80460)
1986-2007 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80845)
Active Pitchers (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81263)

Phase 2 Threads:

Tier 1 Round 1: Pre-1893, 1919 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81666)
Tier 1 Round 2: 1919-1945, NeL/Pre-NeL (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81856)
Tier 1 Round 3: 1946-1985 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82095)
Tier 1 Round 4: 1986-Present (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=1288021)
Tier 1 Round 5: Choosing Tier 1 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82535)
Tier 2 Round 1: Pre-1946 Pitchers (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82737)
Tier 2 Round 2: 1946-Present (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83037)
Tier 2 Round 3: Choosing Tier 2 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83275)
Tier 3 Round 1: Pre-1946 Pitchers (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83375)
Tier 3 Round 2: 1946-Present (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83474)
Tier 3 Round 3: Choosing Tier 3 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83606)
Tier 3 Runoff (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83750)
Tier 4 Round 1: Pre-1946 Pitchers (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83906)
Tier 4 Round 2: 1946-Present (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83997)
Tier 4 Round 3: Choosing Tier 4 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84112)
Tier 4 Runoff (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84219)
Tier 5 Round 1: Pre-1946 Pitchers (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84297)
Tier 5 Round 2: 1946-Present Pitchers (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84399)
Tier 5 Round 3: Choosing Tier 5 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84469)
Tier 5 Runoff (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84555)
Tier 6 Round 1: Top Also Rans (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84646)
Tier 6 Round 2: Choosing Tier 6 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84752)
Tier 6 Runoff (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84833)
Tier 7 Round 1: Choosing Tier 7 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84921)
Tier 8 Round 1: Choosing Tier 8 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85018)
Tier 8 Runoff (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85097)
Tier 9 Round 1: Top Pitchers who were not on a Preliminary Ballot (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85166)
Tier 9 Round 2: Pre-1946, NeL, pre-NeL Who Had Some Support on the Preliminary Ballot (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85288)
Tier 9 Round 3: Post-1945 Pitchers Who Has Some Support on the Preliminary Ballot (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85363)
Tier 9 Round 4: Choosing Tier 9 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85624)
Tier 9 Runoff (http://http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85837)
Tier 10 (http://http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85837)


Paul Wendt's Also Ran spin off project:

Phase 1:

1A (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83799)
1B (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83842)
1C (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83841)
1D (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83898)
1E (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84027)
1F (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84152)
1G (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84177)
1H (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84322)
1I (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85238)

Phase 2:

2A (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83908)
2B (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84369)
2C (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84603)
2D (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85266)
2E (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85308)
2F (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85799)

Phase 3:

3A (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84285)
3B (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84862)
3C (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85796)


Phase 1 Winners:
Pre-1893:

Tommy Bond
Bob Caruthers
John Clarkson
Larry Corcoran
Candy Cummings
Pud Galvin
Tim Keefe
Sliver King
Bobby Mathews
Jim McCormick
Tony Mullane
Charley Radbourne
Al Spalding
John Ward
Mickey Welch

1894-1919:

Chief Bender
Mordecai Brown
Jack Chesbro
Eddie Ciccotte
Clark Griffith
Addie Joss
Rube Marquard
Christy Mathewson
Joe McGinnity
Kid Nichols
Deacon Phillippe
Eddie Plank
Ed Reulbach
Amos Rusie
Jesse Tannehill
Hippo Vaughn
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh
Vic Willis
Smoky Joe Wood
Cy Young

1920-1945:

Pete Alexander
Tommy Bridges
Wilbur Cooper
Stan Coveleski
Dizzy Dean
Red Faber
Wes Ferrell
Lefty Gomez
Burleigh Grimes
Lefty Grove
Carl Hubbell
Waite Hoyt
Walter Johnson
Ted Lyons
Carl Mays
Herb Pennock
Eppa Rixey
Red Ruffing
Urban Shocker
Dazzy Vance
Bucky Walters

NeL and Pre-NeL:

Ray Brown
Andy Cooper
Leon Day
Martin DiHigo
John Donaldson
Bill Foster
Rube Foster
Bill Jackman
Jose Mendez
Satchel Paige
Cannonball Dick Redding
Bullet Joe Rogan
Hilton Smith
Luis Tiant Sr.
Smoky Joe Williams
Nip Winters

1946-1968:

Jim Bunning
Don Drysdale
Bob Feller
Whitey Ford
Bob Gibson
Sandy Koufax
Bob Lemon
Dutch Leonard
Sal Maglie
Juan Marichal
Denny McLain
Don Newcombe
Hal Newhouser
Billy Pierce
Robin Roberts
Johnny Sain
Warren Spahn
Dizzy Trout
Virgil Trucks
Hoyt Wilhelm
Early Wynn

1969-1985:

Vida Blue
Steve Carlton
Rollie Fingers
Ron Guidry
Catfish Hunter
Fergie Jenkins
Tommy John
Jim Kaat
Jerry Koosman
Mickey Lolich
Sparky Lyle
Tug McGraw
Phil Neikro
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Dan Quisenberry
Rick Reuschel
Tom Seaver
Don Sutton
Luis Tiant Jr.
Wilbur Wood

1986-2007:

Bert Blyleven
Kevin Brown
Roger Clemens
David Cone
Dennis Eckersley
John Franco
Doc Gooden
Goose Gossage
Tom Henke
Orel Hershiser
Jimmy Key
Dennis Martinez
Jack Morris
Nolan Ryan
Brett Saberhagen
Curt Schilling
Lee Smith
Dave Stieb
Bruce Sutter
Frank Tanana
Fernando Valenzuela
David Wells

Active Pitchers:

Tom Glavine
Roy Halladay
Trevor Hoffman
Tim Hudson
Randy Johnson
Greg Maddux
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Roy Oswalt
Andy Pettitte
Mariano Rivera
C.C. Sabathia
Johan Santana
John Smoltz
Billy Wagner

Phase 1 losers who received at least 1 vote in the preliminary rounds:
Pre-1893:

Player Votes Pct

Charlie Buffinton 8 38.10%
Will White 8 38.10%
Jim Creighton 6 28.57%
Kid Gleason 6 28.57%
Dick McBride 4 19.05%
Fred Goldsmith 4 19.05%
Bill Hutchison 4 19.05%
Guy Hecker 3 14.29%
Dave Foutz 3 14.29%
Jim Whitney 3 14.29%
Ed Morris 2 9.52%
George Bradley 2 9.52%
Matt Kilroy 2 9.52%
Elton Chamberlain 1 4.76%
Harry Staley 1 4.76%

1893-1919:

Player Votes Pct

Bill Dinneen 4 20.00%
Sam Leever 4 20.00%
Noodles Hahn 3 15.00%
Red Ames 3 15.00%
Jack Taylor 3 15.00%
Doc White 3 15.00%
Jack Coombs 2 10.00%
Jack Stivetts 2 10.00%
Gus Weyhing 2 10.00%
Nig Cuppy 1 5.00%
Dummy Taylor 1 5.00%

1920-1945:

Player Votes Pct

Babe Adams 5 26.32%
Jack Quinn 5 26.32%
Lon Warneke 5 26.32%
Jesse Haines 4 21.05%
Spud Chandler 4 21.05%
Dolf Luque 4 21.05%
Schoolboy Rowe 4 21.05%
Mel Harder 3 15.79%
Johnny Van Der Meer 3 15.79%
Bullet Joe Bush 2 10.53%
Mort Cooper 2 10.53%
Charlie Root 2 10.53%
George Uhle 2 10.53%
Rube Walberg 2 10.53%
Jesse Barnes 1 5.26%
Paul Derringer 1 5.26%
Dutch Ruether 1 5.26%
Bob Shawkey 1 5.26%
Earl Whitehill 1 5.26%

NeL and Pre-NeL:

Player Votes Pct

Chet Brewer 4 30.77%
Dizzy Dismukes 3 23.08%
Double Duty Radcliff 3 23.08%
Harry Buckner 2 15.38%
Dan McClellan 2 15.38%
Walter Ball 1 7.69%
Dan Bankhead 1 7.69%
Bill Byrd 1 7.69%
Phil Cockrel 1 7.69%
Bob Griffith 1 7.69%
Max Manning 1 7.69%
Leroy Malock 1 7.69%
Frank Wickware 1 7.69%

1946-1968:

Player Votes Pct

Harry Brecheen 4 20.00%
Roy Face 4 20.00%
Milt Pappas 4 20.00%
Jim Perry 4 20.00%
Johnny Podres 4 20.00%
Allie Reynolds 4 20.00%
Preacher Roe 4 20.00%
Curt Simmons 4 20.00%
Lew Burdette 3 15.00%
Don Larsen 3 15.00%
Jim Maloney 3 15.00%
Sam McDowell 3 15.00%
Mel Parnell 3 15.00%
Camillo Pascual 3 15.00%
Vic Raschi 3 15.00%
Mel Stottlemyre 3 15.00%
Mike Garcia 2 10.00%
Larry Jackson 2 10.00%
Ed Lopat 2 10.00%
Lindy McDaniel 2 10.00%
Harvey Haddix 1 5.00%
Clem Labine 1 5.00%
Joe Nuxhall 1 5.00%
Ron Perranoski 1 5.00%

1969-1985:

Player Votes Pct

John Hiller 5 22.73%
Mike Marshall 5 22.73%
J.R. Richard 5 22.73%
Steve Rogers 5 22.73%
Kent Tekulve 3 13.64%
Mike Cuellar 2 9.09%
Ken Holtzman 2 9.09%
Mario Soto 2 9.09%
Doyle Alexander 1 4.55%
Doc Ellis 1 4.55%
Willie Hernandez 1 4.55%
Joe Niekro 1 4.55%
Jerry Reuss 1 4.55%

1986-2007:

Player Votes Pct

Kevin Appier 5 25.00%
Dave Stewart 5 25.00%
Jose Rijo 4 20.00%
John Wetteland 4 20.00%
Chuck Finley 3 15.00%
Andy Messersmith 3 15.00%
Randy Myers 3 15.00%
Bob Welch 3 15.00%
Robb Nen 2 10.00%
Jesse Orosco 2 10.00%
Jeff Reardon 2 10.00%
Frank Voila 2 10.00%
Tom Browning 1 5.00%
Doug Drabek 1 5.00%
Roberto Hernandez 1 5.00%
Charlie Hough 1 5.00%
Mark Langston 1 5.00%
Al Leiter 1 5.00%
Ramon Martinez 1 5.00%
Rick Sutcliffe 1 5.00%

Active Pitchers:

Player Votes Pct

Jamie Moyer 11 37.93%
Carlos Zambrano 7 24.14%
Kenny Rogers 6 20.69%
Hideo Nomo 4 13.79%
Troy Percival 4 13.79%
Chris Carpenter 2 6.90%
Bartolo Colon 2 6.90%
Mark Buehrle 1 3.45%
Derek Lowe 1 3.45%
Jason Schmidt 1 3.45%
Tim Wakefield 1 3.45%



Pitchers who earned a minimum of 20% of the phase 1 vote:


Babe Adams
Kevin Appier
Harry Brecheen
Chet Brewer
Charlie Buffinton
Spud Chandler
Jim Creighton
Bill Dinneen
Dizzy Dismukes
Roy Face
Kid Gleason
Jesse Haines
John Hiller
Sam Leever
Dolf Luque
Mike Marshall
Jamie Moyer
Milt Pappas
Jim Perry
Johnny Podres
Jack Quinn
Double Duty Radcliffe
Allie Reynolds
Kenny Rogers
J.R. Richard
Jose Rijo
Preacher Roe
Steve Rogers
Schoolboy Rowe
Curt Simmons
Dave Stewart
Lon Warneke
John Wetteland
Will White
Carlos Zambrano



Pitchers who appeared on Phase 1 ballots but did not receive any votes:

Pre-1893:

Mark Baldwin
Charlie Getzein
Ad Gumbert
Jack Lynch
Toad Ramsey
Adonis Terry
Stump Weidman
George Zettlein

1893-1919:

Bill Donovan
Claude Hendrix
Brickyard Kennedy
Earl Moore
George Mullin
Al Orth
Jeff Pfeffer
Jack Powell
Slim Salee
Hookse Wiltse

1920-1946:

Johnny Allen
Elden Auker
Guy Bush
Hooks Dauss
Bill Doak
Freddie Fitzsimmons
Larry French
Sad Sam Jones
Bill Lee
Red Lucas
Firpo Marberry
Art Nehf
Claude Passeau
Rip Sewell

NeL/Pre-NeL:

Dave Barnhill
William Bell Sr.
Eugene Bemer
Dave Brown
Plunk Drake
Rats Henderson
Bill Holland
Slim Jones
Scrip Lee
Verdel Mathis
Webster McDonald
Terris McDuffy
Henry McHenry
Diomedes Olivo
Andrew Porter
Harry Salmon
Gene Smith
George Stovey
Ted Trent
Stringbean Williams
Laymon Yokely

1946-1968:

Ted Abernathy
Jack Aker
Ewell Blackwell
Bob Buhl
Murry Dickson
Bob Friend
Fred Gladding
Mudcat Grant
Jim Konstanty
Vern Law
Frank Linzy
Don McMahon
Stu Miller
Bobo Newsom
Claude Osteen
Juan Pizarro
Bobby Shantz

1969-1985:

Jack Billingham
Jim Brewer
Mike Caldwell
Bill Campbell
Clay Carroll
Larry Dierker
John Denny
Bob Forsch
Woodie Fryman
Gene Garber
Dave Giusti
Burt Hooton
Dennis Leonard
Greg Minton
Rick Rhoden
Ray Sadecki
Paul Splitorff
Bob Stanley
Mike Torrez
John Tudor
Rick Wise

1986-2007:

Rick Aguilera
Sid Fernandez
Doug Jones
Dan Plesac
Todd Worrell

Active Pitchers:

Armano Benitez
Kelvim Escobar
Shawn Estes
John Garland
Freddy Garcia
Tom Gordon
Eddie Guardado
Mike Hampton
Jason Isringhausen
Todd Jones
John Lieber
Jose Mesa
Kevin Millwood
Matt Morris
Mark Mulder
Russ Ortiz
Chan Ho Park
Mike Timlin
Dave Weathers


Pitchers who have appeared on a Progressive HOF ballot that did not appear on a Phase 1 Ballot:



Pitcher Ballot Year No. Yrs. on Ballot Votes High Pct.

Jim Bagby (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&pid=462&bid=1031) 1928 0 0 0.00%
Rube Benton (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&pid=951&bid=968) 1930
Ted Breitenstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Breitenstein) 1906 1 0 0.00%
Asa Brainard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asa_Brainard) 1920 VC 1 0 0.00%
Ray Caldwell (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1198&pid=2002) 1926 2 1 4.00%
Howie Camnitz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howie_Camnitz) 1920 1 0 0.00%
Kid Carsey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kid_Carsey) 1906 1 0 0.00%
Larry Cheney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Cheney) 1924 1 0 0.00%
Doc Crandall (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&pid=2974&bid=990) 1923 1 0 0.00%
Bert Cunningham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bert_Cunningham) 1906 1 0 0.00%
Red Donahue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Donahue) 1911 1 0 0.00%
Frank Dwyer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Dwyer) 1904 2 1 4.00%
Bob Ewing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Ewing) 1917 1 0 0.00%
Cy Falkenberg (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1711&pid=4258) 1922 1 0 0.00%
Cherokee Fisher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee_Fisher) 1920 VC 1 0 0.00%
Ray Fisher (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1498&pid=4457) 1925 2 1 4.17%
Russ Ford (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1758&pid=4589) 1920 2 1 4.17%
Chick Fraser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_Fraser) 1914 1 0 0.00%
Pink Hawley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_Hawley) 1906 1 0 0.00%
Harry Howell (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1048&pid=6601) 1915 1 0 0.00%
Tom Hughes (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1795&pid=6692) 1918 1 0 0.00%
Frank Killen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Killen) 1905 1 0 0.00%
Left Leifield (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=898&pid=8128) 1925 1 0 0.00%
Sadie McMahon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadie_McMahon) 1902 1 0 0.00%
Jouett Meekin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jouett_Meekin) 1905 1 0 0.00%
Win Mercer (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=402&pid=9535) 1907 1 0 0.00%
Orval Overall (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=914&pid=10775) 1919 2 1 4.17%
Bill Rhines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Rhines) 1904 1 0 0.00%
Nap Rucker (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=927&pid=12303) 1921 1 0 0.00%
Reb Russell (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1791&pid=12347) 1928 2 2 7.41%
Jim Scott (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1695&pid=12736) 1922 1 0 0.00%
Elmer Smith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Smith_(19th_century_outfielder)) 1906 1 0 0.00%
Frank Smith (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1698&pid=13223) 1920 1 0 0.00%
Tully Sparks (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/ballplayers/player.php?name=Tully_Sparks_1874) 1915 1 0 0.00%
Ed Stein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Stein) 1903 1 0 0.00%
Willie Sudhoff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Sudhoff) 1911 1 0 0.00%
Jeff Tesreau (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=993&pid=14079) 1923 2 1 3.85%
Fred Toney (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=977&pid=14274) 1928 1 0 0.00%
Lefty Tyler (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=881&pid=14425) 1926 1 0 0.00%

Player G IP Win-Loss Pct ERA ERA+ WHIP

Jim Bagby 315 1821.7 127 88 .591 3.11 109 1.286
Rube Benton 437 2517.3 150 144 .510 3.09 101 1.265
Ted Breitenstein 379 2964.3 160 170 .485 4.04 109 1.449
Asa Brainard 84 698.7 24 53 .312 4.84 74 1.696
Ray Caldwell 343 2242.0 133 120 .526 3.22 99 1.261
Howie Camnitz 326 2085.3 133 106 .556 2.75 107 1.203
Kid Carsey 256 2222.0 116 138 .457 4.95 85 1.609
Larry Cheney 313 1881.3 116 100 .537 2.70 109 1.293
Doc Crandall 302 1546.7 102 62 .622 2.92 104 1.239
Bert Cunningham 341 2726.7 142 167 .460 4.22 91 1.514
Red Donahue 367 2966.3 164 175 .484 3.61 96 1.370
Frank Dwyer 318 2810.0 176 152 .537 3.85 115 1.447
Bob Ewing 291 2301.0 124 118 .512 2.49 116 1.178
Cy Falkenberg 330 2275.0 130 123 .514 2.68 106 1.222
Cherokee Fisher 165 1319.7 57 84 .404 2.83 107 1.219
Ray Fisher 278 1755.7 100 94 .515 2.82 105 1.223
Russ Ford 199 1487.3 99 71 .582 2.59 124 1.154
Chick Fraser 433 3356.0 175 212 .452 3.68 92 1.428
Pink Hawley 393 3012.7 167 179 .483 3.96 107 1.430
Harry Howell 340 2567.7 131 146 .473 2.74 109 1.212
Tom Hughes 313 2644.0 131 175 .428 3.09 93 1.310
Frank Killen 300 2511.3 164 131 .556 3.78 108 1.414
Lefty Leifield 296 1838.0 124 97 .561 2.47 115 1.212
Sadie McMahon 321 2634.0 173 127 .534 3.51 118 1.394
Jouett Meekin 270 2603.3 153 133 .535 4.07 102 1.494
Win Mercer 298 2470.3 131 164 .444 3.99 106 1.548
Orval Overall 218 1535.3 108 71 .603 2.23 122 1.161
Bill Rhines 223 1900.0 114 103 .525 3.47 114 1.341
Nap Rucker 336 2375.3 134 134 .500 2.42 119 1.175
Reb Russell 242 1291.7 81 59 .579 2.33 121 1.080
Jim Scott 226 1892.0 107 113 .486 2.30 121 1.180
Elmer Smith 149 1210.3 75 57 .568 3.35 113 1.313
Frank Smith 255 2273.0 139 111 .556 2.59 101 1.166
Tully Sparks 313 2335.7 121 136 .471 2.79 104 1.224
Ed Stein 215 1656.0 109 78 .583 3.97 103 1.462
Willie Sudhoff 279 2086.3 103 135 .433 3.56 92 1.338
Jeff Tesreau 247 1679.0 115 72 .615 2.43 114 1.145
Fred Toney 271 2206.0 139 102 .577 2.68 113 1.188
Lefty Tyler 323 2230.0 127 116 .523 2.95 102 1.264

Note: Links to SABR, Baseball Library and Wiki bios are provided
where available.

***Asa Brainard was primarily a pitcher in the late 1860s. Elmer Smith was
primarily a fielder but played several seasons as a pitcher.

Pitchers who just missed the preliminary ballots:



Player Debut Yrs Pct. W L G IP ERA ERA+ WHIP

Andy Benes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Benes) 1989 14 .527 155 139 403 2505.3 3.97 104 1.312
Tiny Bonham (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1127&pid=1282) 1940 10 .589 103 72 193 1551.0 3.06 120 1.153
Al Brazle (http://www.baseballinwartime.com/player_biographies/brazle_al.htm) 1943 10 .602 97 64 441 1376.7 3.31 120 1.365
Danny Darwin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Darwin) 1978 21 .484 171 182 371 3016.7 3.84 106 1.268
Frank Dwyer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Dwyer) 1888 12 .537 176 152 365 2810.0 3.85 115 1.447
Carl Erskine (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1188&pid=4148) 1948 12 .610 122 78 335 1718.7 4.00 101 1.328
Bob Ewing (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=973&pid=4223) 1902 11 .512 291 124 118 2301.0 2.49 116 1.178
Ray Fisher (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1498&pid=4457) 1910 10 .515 100 94 278 1755.7 2.82 105 1.223
Russ Ford (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1758&pid=4589) 1909 7 .582 99 71 199 1487.3 2.59 124 1.154
Chick Fraser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_Fraser) 1896 14 .452 175 212 389 3556.0 3.68 92 1.428
Don Gullett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Gullett) 1970 9 .686 109 50 266 1390.0 3.11 113 1.227
Larry Gura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Gura) 1970 16 .565 126 97 403 2047.0 3.97 106 1.280
Tex Hughson (http://www.baseballinwartime.com/player_biographies/hughson_tex.htm) 1941 8 .640 96 54 225 1375.7 2.94 125 1.194
Ed Killian (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1732&pid=7499) 1903 8 .567 102 78 180 1598.3 2.38 109 1.217
Ray Kremer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Kremer) 1924 10 .627 143 85 247 1954.7 3.76 113 1.326
Max Lanier (http://www.baseballinwartime.com/player_biographies/lanier_max.htm) 1938 14 .568 108 82 204 1619.3 3.01 125 1.297
Lefty Leifield (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=898&pid=8128) 1905 12 .561 124 97 296 1838.0 2.47 115 1.212
Carl Lundgren (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Lundgren) 1902 8 .623 91 55 179 1322.0 2.42 112 1.214
Jon Matlack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Matlack) 1971 13 .498 125 126 361 2363.0 3.18 114 1.233
Rudy May (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_May) 1965 16 .494 152 156 535 2622.0 3.46 102 1.248
Scott McGregor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_McGregor_(baseball)) 1976 13 .561 138 108 356 2140.7 3.99 98 1.291
Dave McNally (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_McNally) 1962 14 .607 184 119 424 2730.0 3.24 106 1.214
Lee Meadows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Meadows) 1915 15 .511 188 180 490 3160.7 3.37 106 1.340
George McQuillan (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=942&pid=9428) 1907 10 .489 85 89 173 1576.3 2.38 113 1.131
Gary Nolan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Nolan_(baseball)) 1967 10 .611 110 70 250 1674.7 3.08 117 1.145
Orval Overall (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=914&pid=10775) 1905 7 .603 108 71 218 1535.3 2.23 122 1.161
Monte Pearson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Pearson) 1932 10 .621 100 61 191 1429.7 4.00 111 1.491
Jake Peavy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_Peavy) 2002 7 .581 86 62 199 1261.0 3.25 121 1.180
Jack Pfeister (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=915&pid=11173) 1903 8 .617 71 44 149 1067.3 2.02 127 1.089
Eddie Rommell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Rommel) 1920 13 .590 171 119 500 2556.3 3.54 121 1.351
Nap Rucker (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=927&pid=12303) 1907 10 .500 134 134 272 2375.3 2.42 119 1.175
Reb Russell (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1791&pid=12347) 1913 7 .579 81 59 242 1291.7 2.33 121 1.080
Babe Ruth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babe_Ruth) 1914 10 .671 94 46 163 1221.3 2.28 122 1.159
Jim Scott (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1695&pid=12736) 1909 9 .486 107 113 226 1892.0 2.30 121 1.180
Mike Scott (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Scott_(baseball)) 1979 13 .534 124 108 347 2068.7 3.54 100 1.201
Jeff Tesreau (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=993&pid=14079) 1912 7 .615 115 72 206 1679.0 2.43 114 1.145
Fred Toney (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&pid=14274&bid=977) 1911 12 .577 139 102 271 2206.0 2.69 113 1.188
Jake Weimer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_Weimer) 1903 7 .584 97 69 191 1472.7 2.23 125 1.168
Tom Zachary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Zachary) 1918 19 .493 186 191 533 3126.3 3.73 106 1.437

Note: Links to player bios at SABR (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=l&m=59), Baseball in Wartime, (http://www.baseballinwartime.com/player_biographies/player_biographies.htm) and Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/)
are provided.


Phase 2 Winners:

Pre-1893, 1893-1919 Tier 1:

Mordecai Brown
John Clarkson
Tim Keefe
Christy Matthewson
Kid Nichols
Eddie Plank
Amos Rusie
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh
Cy Young

1920-1945, Pre NeL and NeL Tier 1:

Pete Alexander
Dizzy Dean
Lefty Gomez
Lefty Grove
Carl Hubbell
Walter Johnson
Satchel Paige
Bullet Joe Rogan
Dazzy Vance
Smoky Joe Williams

1946-1985 Tier 1:

Steve Carlton
Bob Feller
Bob Gibson
Sandy Koufax
Juan Marichal
Phil Neikro
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Robin Roberts
Tom Seaver
Warren Spahn

1986-Present Tier 1:

Bert Blyleven
Roger Clemens
Dennis Eckersley
Tom Glavine
Randy Johnson
Greg Maddux
Pedro Martinez
Mariano Rivera
Nolan Ryan
John Smoltz

Pre-1946 incl. NeL Tier 2:

Chief Bender
Mordecai Brown
Bob Caruthers
John Clarkson
Stan Coveleski
Dizzy Dean
Wes Ferrell
Pud Galvin
Tim Keefe
Ted Lyons
Carl Mays
Joe McGinnity
Eddie Plank
Charley Radbourne
Bullet Joe Rogan
Red Ruffing
Amos Rusie
Dazzy Vance
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh

1946-Present Tier 2:

Bert Blyleven
Jim Bunning
Don Drysdale
Dennis Eckersley
Whitey Ford
Tom Glavine
Fergie Jenkins
Bob Lemon
Juan Marichal
Mike Mussina
Phil Neikro
Hal Newhouser
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Mariano Rivera
Robin Roberts
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
Don Sutton
Hoyt Wilhelm

Pre-1946 Tier 3:

Bob Caruthers
Eddie Ciccotte
Stan Coveleski
Dizzy Dean
Red Faber
Wes Ferrell
Rube Foster
Pud Galvin
Lefty Gomez
Burleigh Grimes
Addie Joss
Ted Lyons
Carl Mays
Joe McGinnity
Charley Radbourne
Eppa Rixey
Red Ruffing
Amos Rusie
Al Spalding
Rube Waddell
Vic Willis

1946-Present Tier 3:

Kevin Brown
Jim Bunning
Don Drysdale
Dennis Eckersley
Rollie Fingers
Goose Gossage
Ron Guidry
Trevor Hoffman
Catfish Hunter
Tommy John
Jim Kaat
Bob Lemon
Mike Mussina
Don Newcombe
Dan Quisenberry
Johan Santana
Curt Schilling
Don Sutton
Luis Tiant Jr.
Early Wynn

Tier 3 Runoff:

Kevin Brown
Red Faber
Rube Foster
Ron Guidry
Addie Joss
Carl Mays
Red Ruffing

Pre-1946 Tier 4:

Chief Bender
Ray Brown
Bob Caruthers
Eddie Ciccotte
Wilbur Cooper
Martin DiHigo
Red Faber
Bill Foster
Clark Griffith
Burleigh Grimes
Addie Joss
Carl Mays
Jim McCormick
Jose Mendez
Tony Mullane
Eppa Rixey
Red Ruffing
Urban Shocker
Al Spalding
Bucky Walters
Mickey Welch
Vic Willis
Smoky Joe Wood

1946-Present Tier 4:

Vide Blue
Kevin Brown
David Cone
Rollie Fingers
Roy Halladay
Trevor Hoffman
Catfish Hunter
Tommy John
Jim Kaat
Jack Morris
Don Newcombe
Roy Oswalt
Billy Pierce
Dan Quisenberry
Brett Saberhagen
Johan Santana
Lee Smith
Dave Stieb
Bruce Sutter
Luis Tiant Jr.
Billy Wagner

Tier 4 Runoff:

Lefty Gomez
Catfish Hunter
Jose Mendez
Tony Mullane
Dan Quisenberry
Brett Saberhagen
Luis Tiant Jr.
Vic Willis

Pre-1946 Tier 5:

Chief Bender
Ray Brown
Tommy Bridges
Wilbur Cooper
Leon Day
Martin DiHigo
Clark Griffith
Burleigh Grimes
Waite Hoyt
Silver King
Jim McCormick
Herb Pennock
Deacon Phillippe
Cannonball Dick Redding
Urban Shocker
Hilton Smith
Hippo Vaughn
Bucky Walters
Mickey Welch
Smoky Joe Wood

1946-Present Tier 5:

Vida Blue
David Cone
John Franco
Doc Gooden
Roy Halladay
Orel Hershiser
Catfish Hunter
Tommy John
Jim Kaat
Jimmy Key
Jerry Koosman
Jack Morris
Don Newcombe
Roy Oswalt
Andy Pettitte
Brett Saberhagen
Lee Smith
Dave Stieb
Luis Tiant Jr.
Virgil Trucks
Billy Wagner

Tier 5 Runoff:

Vida Blue
John Franco
Clark Griffith
Doc Gooden
Burleigh Grimes
Jimmy Key
Roy Oswalt
Cannonball Dick Redding

Tier 6 Also Rans Winners:

Babe Adams
Kevin Appier
Sam Leever
Dolf Luque
Jamie Moyer
Jack Quinn
Allie Reynolds
Jose Rijo
Lon Warneke

Tier 6 Runoff:

Ray Brown
Sparky Lyle
Dennis Martinez
Jack Quinn
Ed Reulbach
Billy Wagner

Tier 8 Runoff:

Charlie Buffinton
Andy Cooper
Bill Dinneen
John Donaldson
Bill Jackman
Ed Reulbach
J.R. Richard
Preacher Roe
Steve Rogers
Fernando Valenzuela
John Ward
Carlos Zambrano

Top Pitchers who were not on a Preliminary Ballot Tier 9,10:

Max Lanier
Dave McNally
Orval Overall
Eddie Rommell
Nap Rucker
Babe Ruth

Pre-1946 incl. NeL Tier 9:

Mort Cooper
Paul Derringer
Noodles Hahn
Mel Harder
Dick McBride
Charlie Root
Bob Shawkey
Jack Stivetts
George Uhle
Doc White

1946-Present Tier 9:

Lew Burdette
Mike Cuellar
Doug Drabek
Chuck Finley
Mark Langston
Al Leiter
Lindy McDaniel
Sam McDowell
Andy Messersmith
Joe Niekro
Mel Stottlemyre
Kent Tekulve
Frank Viola

Tier 9 Runoff:

Mel Harder
John Hiller
Double Duty Radcliffe
Kenny Rogers


The Final Tiers:

Tier 1:

Pete Alexander
Steve Carlton
Roger Clemens
Bob Feller
Bob Gibson
Lefty Grove
Carl Hubbell
Randy Johnson
Walter Johnson
Sandy Koufax
Greg Maddux
Pedro Martinez
Christy Matthewson
Kid Nichols
Satchel Paige
Nolan Ryan
Tom Seaver
Warren Spahn
Smoky Joe Williams
Cy Young

Tier 2:

Bert Blyleven
Mordecai Brown
John Clarkson
Whitey Ford
Tom Glavine
Fergie Jenkins
Tim Keefe
Juan Marichal
Phil Niekro
Hal Newhouser
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Eddie Plank
Mariano Rivera
Robin Roberts
Bullet Joe Rogan
John Smoltz
Dazzy Vance
Ed Walsh
Hoyt Wilhem

Tier 3:

Jim Bunning
Stan Coveleski
Dizzy Dean
Don Drysdale
Dennis Eckersley
Wes Ferrell
Rube Foster*
Pud Galvin
Goose Gossage
Ron Guidry*
Bob Lemon
Ted Lyons
Joe McGinnity
Mike Mussina
Charley Radbourne
Amos Rusie
Curt Schilling
Don Sutton
Rube Waddell
Early Wynn

Tier 4:

Kevin Brown
Bob Caruthers
Eddie Ciccotte
Red Faber
Rollie Fingers
Bill Foster
Lefty Gomez*
Trevor Hoffman
Addie Joss
Carl Mays
Jose Mendez*
Tony Mullane*
Billy Pierce
Dan Quisenberry*
Eppa Rixey
Red Ruffing
Johan Santana
Al Spalding
Bruce Sutter
Vic Willis*

Tier 5:

Chief Bender
David Cone
Wilbur Cooper
Burleigh Grimes*
Roy Halladay
Orel Hershiser
Catfish Hunter
Tommy John
Jim Kaat
Jack Morris
Don Newcombe
Roy Oswalt*
Cannonball Dick Redding*
Brett Saberhagen
Urban Shocker
Lee Smith
Dave Stieb
Luis Tiant Jr.
Bucky Walters
Smoky Joe Wood

Tier 6:

Babe Adams
Vida Blue
Tommy Bridges
Leon Day
Martin DiHigo
John Franco
Doc Gooden
Clark Griffith
Waite Hoyt
Jimmy Key
Jerry Koosman
Dolf Luque
Dennis Martinez*
Jim McCormick
Jack Quinn*
Allie Reynolds
Hippo Vaughn
Billy Wagner*
Lon Warneke
Mickey Welch

Tier 7:

Kevin Appier
Tommy Bond
Ray Brown
Tim Hudson
Dutch Leonard
Mickey Lolich
Sparky Lyle
Sal Maglie
Jamie Moyer
Herb Pennock
Andy Pettitte
Deacon Phillippe
Rick Reuschel
Jose Rijo
C.C. Sabathia
Frank Tanana
Luis Tiant Sr.
Dizzy Trout
Virgil Trucks
David Wells

Tier 8:

Harry Brecheen
Jack Chesbro
Andy Cooper*
Bill Dinneen*
Tom Henke
Silver King
Sam Leever
Mike Marshall
Tug McGraw
Milt Pappas
Ed Reulbach*
J.R. Richard*
Preacher Roe*
Steve Rogers*
Schoolboy Rowe
Johnny Sain
Hilton Smith
Jesse Tannehill
Fernando Valenzuela*
Wilbur Wood

Tier 9:

Lew Burdette
Mike Cuellar
John Donaldson
Roy Face
Chuck Finley
Noodles Hahn
Mel Harder*
Jesse Haines
Al Leiter
Rube Marquard
Sam McDowell
Dave McNally
Mel Parnell
Jim Perry
Johnny Podres
Babe Ruth
Bob Shawkey
Dave Stewart
Kent Tekulve
Frank Viola

* Runoff winners

jjpm74
12-23-2008, 09:19 AM
After the conclusion of this Tier, we will commence with Phase 3 as follows:

1. We will start with vote for 1 polls. This will only remain so for as long as we have a clear winner with a minimum of 60% of the total votes cast. As soon as we drop below the 60% threshold, we will revert to vote for 5 polls.

2. Anyone receiving 25% or more in a given round will automatically be removed from the next poll and added to our final ranking. In the event of ties, we will have quick 2 day runoffs if the ties occur in the top 20.

3. Beyond the top 20, ties will stick as is and be broken when the ranking process is complete.

4. We will continue to rank as long as there's enough interest (a minimum of 8 ballots cast). Hopefully we'll get to #100, but if we don't, so be it. The main purpose of this project for me was to see roughly where this community places pitchers.

I'm hoping to run a discussion about the tiers and list when all voting is completed to see where everyone's HOF cutoff line is and what pitchers on our list ended up ranking below the current Cooperstown pitcher set +- a projected 10 would be in their personal HOF.

Paul Wendt
12-24-2008, 07:59 PM
Last week we "Tiered" very few of the pitchers whom I supported or otherwise featured (color) so let me begin with a reprint.

>>
Who "really stands out"? judged by career value
(not rate, not peak, not intangible); as pitchers (the Babe only in Red Stockings; add: J.M. Ward only in Gray)

Rate leaders Noodles Hahn and Nap Rucker pitched enough to stand out by career value on this ballot along with three others
: Bobby Mathews from the dawn of pro ball;
: Charlie Buffinton and Jack Stivetts from the 19th century.

Those five stand out by some simple bulk measures; not Will White because he wasn't as good; not J.M. Ward, who pitched only 2400 inns.

Six others easily earn my vote on career value grounds, although they do not "stand out".
: Doc White, a contemporary of Hahn and Rucker;
: Bob Shawkey, George Uhle, and Eddie Rommel from around 1920.
: Frank Viola and Chuck Finley seem to be the best starting pitchers since WWII (with enough "bulk" to be called career value candidates).

--
That is eleven. Five other "rate standouts" should probably get my votes.
: Andy Messersmith and Mel Stottlemyre were very good in medium-long careers.
: Kent Tekulve and John Hiller are the class of the old-fashioned relief pitchers and
: Jon Wetteland is the only notable closer, a very good one.

--
That is sixteen and that is enough to choose on career statistics alone, rates and totals.

The next best in career value are candidates for some of those four votes but no more than candidates.
: Mel Harder, Paul Derringer, Charlie Root from the 1930s
: Kenny Rogers and Mark Langston from the 1990s

There are peaks and intangibles to consider, of course. There are pioneers and blackball stars, too.
: Jim Creighton, Dick McBride, Candy Cummings, J.M. Ward
: John Donaldson, Will Jackman, Nip Winters, Chet Brewer


Note.
7 of the 11 remain on the ballot.
11 of the 16 remain on the ballot.
22 of all 29 remain on the ballot! -Ed.


continued
1.
For the last election I completed a ballot, finally, but I did not successfully submit it. Max Lanier is the last of my twenty (16 supported in print last week plus four underline), of whom 14 remain on the ballot.

"There are peaks and intangibles to consider, of course."
: Max Lanier and Mort Cooper were teammates for the St Lous Cardinals during WWII, so they both enjoyed great team fielding support. Both were very good pitchers by season and career rate measures but neither one achieved 2000 mlb innings. Lanier moved to Mexico in 1946 and suffered under Organized Baseball suspension, reinstated mid-1949, so he is an easy call over Cooper and many other "peak" candidates.

: Camilo Pascual and Jim Maloney were bright stars briefly, Pascual beginning in the late 1950s and Malone in the early 1960s. They were all-star pitchers whose fans may well have imagined Hall of Fame careers. They broke down but they accomplished a little more than Gary Peters and Joe Horlen before breaking, more like Sam McDowell.

2.
Who will be the biggest disappointment here?

Nap Rucker

jjpm74
12-25-2008, 10:45 AM
At the half way point, we have 7 ballots cast. There are no 100% consensus picks, but a number of pitchers who sit at 5 votes:

Paul Derringer
Max Lanier
Firpo Marberry
Camillo Pascual
Kenny Rogers
Mario Soto
Mel Stottlymyre
John Wetteland

It is nice to see reliever pioneer Firpo Marberry and top shelf modern era reliever John Wetteland faring well to this point.

There are also several pitchers who sit at 4 votes:

Mort Cooper
Candy Cummings
John Hiller
Charlie Hough
Bill Jackman
Denny McLain
Andy Messersmith

They too stand a good chance at election provided support continues to go their way.

Only 2 pitchers sit at 3 votes:

Doug Drabek
Joe Niekro

Joe Niekro is one of the weaker candidates of this field. I'm not sure why he has support here.

Of the remaining round 1 winners, here's how they are faring:

Larry Corcoran 2
Candy Cummings 4
Bill Jackman 4
Denny McLain 4
John Ward 2
Nip Winters 1

Only Candy Cummings, Bill Jackman and Denny McLain are in a decent position to win a spot on Tier 10.

Paul Wendt
12-25-2008, 12:23 PM
. . . Only 2 pitchers sit at 3 votes:

Doug Drabek
Joe Niekro

Joe Niekro is one of the weaker candidates of this field. I'm not sure why he has support here.

Of the remaining round 1 winners, here's how they are faring:

Larry Corcoran 2
Candy Cummings 4
Bill Jackman 4
Denny McLain 4
John Ward 2
Nip Winters 1

Only Candy Cummings, Bill Jackman and Denny McLain are in a decent position to win a spot on Tier 10.
bold = not recommended here

Doug Drabek, career 2535 innings, 101 ERA+.
He worked 1900 innings at 115 thru 1994 and age 31. Did he "let himself go" during the strike?
Whatever the cause that was one steep decline, not the traumatic injury that simply ends a pitching career.

Denny McLain, career 1886 innings, 101 ERA+.
He worked 1500 inns at 112 thru 1969 and age 25. Was he a star of the banquet circuit, too, coming off two Cy Young Awards?

By ERA+ he was already unusually erratic, season to season. Consider McLain 1965 and 1966. It was all in the homeruns and walks
ip ERA+ whip h hr bb so
220 134 1.07 174 25 _62 192 ; McLain 1965
264 _89 1.17 205 42 104 192 ; McLain 1966

Joe Niekro, career 3584 innings, 97 ERA+.
He won 20 games twice, in 1979 and 1980. The second time he did it with ERA+ 92 and a woulda coulda shoulda been champion team. Niekro worked 1600 inns at ERA+ 93, to 1975 and age 33; excelled for four seasons which lifted him to almost 2600 at ERA+ 99; returned to normalcy and finally called it quits after another thousand innings.

Niekro worked wonders in October. In the postseason, 20 innings and no runs. Following a season-finale disaster in Los Angeles, October 1980 --Astros lose 2-3, 1-2, 3-4 !-- he coasted through the one-game playoff
: 6 October 1980. Houston 7-1 @Los Angeles (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1980/B10060LAN1980.htm) at Retrosheet
Really he enjoyed his career peak that week, with the playoff game and a 10-inning shutout of the Phillies. Good timing but the Astros did not quite make enough of it.

J W
12-25-2008, 01:23 PM
Completely agree those three names should NOT make the list! I voted for exactly ZERO of all those bold names listed (and I'm the lone vote for White over Cummings for that matter... but I can understand Cummings/Corcoran). A couple other names I'm wondering about:

Mario Soto (5 votes) 100-92, 108 ERA+, did have three all-star games... had some unusually high CYA finishes... am I missing something here?

Charlie Hough (4 votes) better choice than Niekro, but a wholly unspectacular pitcher. 216-216; played foreeeever. Career ERA+ bumped up a bit by early relief time. I think Wakefield is a better choice, but even he was the very final cut on my ballot.

That said, overall I'm happy; 18 of the 20 I voted for have at least 3 votes, and that's where the tie-break is currently set. I'm fairly certain our ballots are similar Paul, so it looks like we're both carrying the banner for Buffinton, Rommel, Uhle, etc.

Paul Wendt
12-25-2008, 01:37 PM
Mario Soto (5 votes) 100-92, 108 ERA+, did have three all-star games... had some unusually high CYA finishes... am I missing something here?

Briefly he was a great pitcher. So was Denny McLain.
Soto enjoyed a four-year peak where he pitched more than 1000 innings. Jose Rijo enjoyed a one-year peak where he pitched more than 250 innings. Soto also pitched longer for the Reds, his only major league team! Relying heavily on such things, a middle age fan from the Queen City might vote for Mario Soto number one, but this isn't the Cincinnati Reds poll.

P.S.
I am not yet voting for Jose Rijo in Also-Rans stage three, which is always underway next door. He may have a chance to take a rung on that ladder if some of his previous supporters turn out! One Red who is almost a century older, Frank Noodles Hahn seems more likely to get one in this round. The Red you should be sure to support is Jack Quinn, who worked 14 games for Cinci in 1933, including one after his 50th birthday.
(Also-Ran Pitchers, poll 3-C (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85796))

That said, overall I'm happy; 18 of the 20 I voted for have at least 3 votes, and that's where the tie-break is currently set. I'm fairly certain our ballots are similar Paul, so it looks like we're both carrying the banner for Buffinton, Rommel, Uhle, etc.
That won't hold up, never does, the late votes run heavily for the more recent pitchers.

add: "more recent" means post-WWII, so it cuts out all the Negro Leagues pitchers. Honestly it was among the Negro Leagues pitches that I first noticed strong performances thru the first full day of voting.
It occurs to me that "all bets are off" because I haven't looked at the identities of the voters. This votes takes place during holiday break from all schools and many other workplaces. It's possible that the "early voters" make a different group of people here than in previous "Top 100" elections.

J W
12-25-2008, 01:59 PM
Bummer. Well for what it's worth, I encourage the voters to please consider the older pitchers on this list!

Probably the most important stat I looked at for this final stage of voting was Gray Ink. I'd like to see the pitchers with the highest scores who don't make the top-200 cut.

Notable pitchers I voted for with high Gray Ink scores (20th century only):

Paul Derringer - 177 (61st) - 6 votes, good job guys
Charlie Root - 174 (64th) - only 2 votes (?!?)

Mark Langston - 134 (121st)
Larry Jackson - 129 (130th)
Mort Cooper - 125 (138th)
Eddie Rommel - 124 (140th)
Firpo Marberry - 122 (146th)
Nap Rucker - 122 (146th)
Ed Lopat - 120 (153rd)
Camilo Pascual - 120 (153rd)
George Uhle - 117 (157th)

..almost all of these guys are on the bubble and could use your support folks!

jjpm74
12-27-2008, 10:01 AM
We barely hit the minimum in this round. The following 18 pitchers have earned a spot on Tier 10:

Mort Cooper
Candy Cummings
Paul Derringer
John Hiller
Charlie Hough
Bill Jackman
Mark Langston
Max Lanier
Firpo Marberry
Denny McLain
Andy Messersmith
Joe Niekro
Camillo Pascual
Kenny Rogers
Mario Soto
Mel Stottlemyre
John Wetteland
Doc White

These pitchers qualified for a runoff for slots 19 and 20:

Chet Brewer
Charlie Buffinton
Spud Chandler
Larry Corcoran
Doug Drabek
Larry Jackson
Ed Lopat
Bobby Mathews
Lindy McDaniel
Eddie Rommell
Nap Rucker
George Uhle
Johnny Van Der Meer
John Ward