Hey you swing analizers....

[Syx]

here is a clip of my 7 year old. He has a very nice swing, my only question is whether or not his stride is too long. Any input is appreciated.

http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t150/kjsyx/?action=view&current=b7a98a5b.pbr

[mcloven]

Looks like he has bat drag, which is very common for this age group. To me, rather than too long of a stride, it seems his set up is too wide (which might interfere with his hips rotating at that age)--but others might disagree.

I like his intent to hit.

[Syx]

Thank you. What exactly is bat drag? How do you fix it?

[mcloven]

This is a good description of bat drag:
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/RethinkingHitting/Essays/BatDrag.html

I've been looking for a good way to fix it as well (likely making sure that your top hand stays connected with/turns with your back shoulder and the palm of your top hand doesn't point 'skyward' to soon). It seems most players that I see have issues with it (even the very best at 7-9 yo). Apparently, boardmember has some good fixes.

My guess is that bat drag has to do with kids adjusting to the relative weight of their bat to their strength (if you think of pulling a very heavy object you're likely going to make the same movements), some of it also may be due to a young player trying to hit a pitch that is arcing/sloping downward and matching the plane of the slow arc "coach" pitch with your bat...and kids can get away with it when pitching is easy to time.

[Mark H]

Yeah it looks like bat drag but it would be nice to see a clip we can slo mo. LOVE this kid's vicious aggressive intent. Englishbey has a lot to say about bat drag too. And here's some more clips. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=yapw1y2t92.tiger_s?n=0&z=9&c=4&x=0&m=20&w=0&p=0 See 21 through 24.

A bat drag swing works well at this age. Problem is it takes about 7 frames instead of four to five frames which kills you later when pitchers start throwing hard and changing speeds. It's a perfectly rational solution to a youngster like this. Especially one that wants to hit the #$%$ out of the ball like this one seems to since a bat drag swing can produce a lot of bat speed. There are lots of drills to work on it but it starts with understanding better rotation and posture. Not to worry. You have a lot of time. I wouldn't recommend starting on your son. I'd recommend starting on you. Read everything you can find on here about bat drag paying special attention to Boardmember, Scott and a few others. Read everything on Englishbey's site. The public side is free. Study all the analysis page on the above linked site. I haven't looked at Chris's bat drag site lately but it's probably pretty good too. Scott wrote something in the past few days about bat drag that was very good.

I envy you. Those days with my kids are a small dot in my rear view mirror.

[Syx]

Thanks to both of you guys. The site you linked looks outstanding. I will really dig into it over the holidays. I will try to post a longer clip (or is it better quality) when I can.

[hitnpeas]

Yeah it looks like bat drag but it would be nice to see a clip we can slo mo. LOVE this kid's vicious aggressive intent. Englishbey has a lot to say about bat drag too. And here's some more clips. http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=yapw1y2t92.tiger_s?n=0&z=9&c=4&x=0&m=20&w=0&p=0 See 21 through 24.

A bat drag swing works well at this age. Problem is it takes about 7 frames instead of four to five frames which kills you later when pitchers start throwing hard and changing speeds. It's a perfectly rational solution to a youngster like this. Especially one that wants to hit the #$%$ out of the ball like this one seems to since a bat drag swing can produce a lot of bat speed. There are lots of drills to work on it but it starts with understanding better rotation and posture. Not to worry. You have a lot of time. I wouldn't recommend starting on your son. I'd recommend starting on you. Read everything you can find on here about bat drag paying special attention to Boardmember, Scott and a few others. Read everything on Englishbey's site. The public side is free. Study all the analysis page on the above linked site. I haven't looked at Chris's bat drag site lately but it's probably pretty good too. Scott wrote something in the past few days about bat drag that was very good.

I envy you. Those days with my kids are a small dot in my rear view mirror.


VERY GOOD advice....

Thanks to both of you guys. The site you linked looks outstanding. I will really dig into it over the holidays. I will try to post a longer clip (or is it better quality) when I can.

Try to get a clip from a different angle.... facing him and/or from the pitcher's perspective. I have a 7 and a 3 y/o and I must say this site has given me many, many tools to use going forward. :nod: Good luck....

[AltaLomaStorm]

Syx, here is a .gif of your son's swing...and follow the advice MarkH is giving you - he's one of the good ones. :applaud:

If you save the .gif to your hard drive, you can use the arrow keys to toggle through the swing frame by frame. Good luck. Marty

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm114/cbrcanyoncrver/jason.gif

[Syx]

Syx, here is a .gif of your son's swing...and follow the advice MarkH is giving you - he's one of the good ones. :applaud:

If you save the .gif to your hard drive, you can use the arrow keys to toggle through the swing frame by frame. Good luck. Marty

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm114/cbrcanyoncrver/jason.gif

Very nice. Thanks!

[kylebee]

Swing looks great - I agree with everyone else, it's laden with bat drag, but that works for youngsters who face slower pitching and lack the strength to create a shorter swing. Wouldn't worry about it for now - as long as he competes well at the level of competition he's at, that's what matters. Everyone struggles when they move up in levels, and if he works hard, he'll figure out how to compete at the higher levels.

[Mark H]

Now that I can look at it with a little time and a clip I can frame by frame, bat drag might not be where I'd focus first. Use quicktime to open the clip off your hard drive and notice how he starts swinging before his foot hits much less his heel. It's good for his hips to be turning while he's striding but he needs to leave the shoulders, hands and bat back till about heel plant. If you look around on here you can find plenty of MLB hitting clips for comparison.

I should add he's got one of the most important ingredients to get better-INTENT. He obviously intends and want to hit the ball HARD.

[callyjr]

all good advise, but no one really gave him a fix. The front elbow is a big cause of the bat drag. Its gonna be hard for a 7yr old to have a bent elbow, but you can try to work on it. I would just show it to him and and him a couple of his favorite pros and tell him thats the next level. See if he can make the changes on his own. Do't expect this to change over night though.

[Mark H]

Anytime you make one change other things change. I'd correct the swinging while striding. At the same time encouraging an athletic butt out tilted deadlift type position and then see what happens with the arms.

[RayR]

IMO, he needs to realize that it is against BASEBALL LAW to drop your hands and dump the barrel.

At lag position his barrel is about 12" lower than his hands.

If he gets it that he can't drop his hands to line up the barrel with the pitch he will figure out a different way to bring the bat around - same way I suspect Mickey Mantle, Hank Aaron and Ted Williams figured it out.:laugh

And maybe this is why you see Jeter and others taking practice chops coming down on the ball - reminds them to keep their hands up and not dump the barrel.

[LAball]

I think its a great swing. I dont agree with the bat drag. The camera angle makes it hard be sure. I even see shoulder hip seperation. The stance is a little wide but I wouldnt change it for fear of changing his swing. If he keeps the basics to this swing, I think he will make some minor adjustments has he gets older on his own , like getting more in the plane of he ball. Is the back toe touch natural or forced? I just hope he can remember it for next 5 years.

[chesspirate]

This is my favorite swing i've seen of an under 10yr old.

[Mark H]

It's one of the best that age I've ever seen in terms of apparent upside and attitude but the swing has some problems IMO. Not really bad news that since it means he can get a lot better pretty quickly. Start by delaying shoulder rotation till heel plant.

[HYP]

IMO the kid is 7, let him hit and have fun. If you start putting restrictions on his swing and make it work. You may lose some of that "intent" you see. In other words don't coach his swing out of him. As he grows he will figure some things out for himself. He has done pretty good so far.

HYP

[mudvnine]

Thank you. What exactly is bat drag?

You see it below in the four consecutive swing frames from your video; where his rear elbow leads his hands into the hitting zone.

How do you fix it?

Click here for all you need to know to fix bat drag in twelve simple words. (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=972958&postcount=3) Really focus in the words "behind the top hand", the poster guarantees it will fix it and I concur with him . . . don't over complicate it. If you have any questions let me know and I'll send you some video examples of the correct and incorrect elbow and hand positioning he speaks of.

Best of luck,
Mud

[Ursa Major]

Great swing for the age... and there is the temptation to let it go and watch him enjoy being a stud for a couple of years.

The wide stance normally would be an issue, but he has so much intent that he does achieve drive into the front leg. Look at the far right picture in the series above, and you see that he's able to get around enough that he's up onto his back toe while keeping his weight centered between his knees. That is sweet.

With that said, I'd slowly (like over the course of the next three years) incorporate into his swing a little more tilt, a narrower starting stance, a bit of a delay in dropping the back elbow, and a bit more connection by keeping the hands back by the shoulder longer. The key is sensing when he's ready to try to bring those ideas into his swing. It wouldn't hurt when throwing him wiffle balls to say, "Hey, just for the heck of it, why don't you try doing X?" But, a kid this advanced may discover them all on his own. But also be prepared for him to spontaneously "try" something different that completely wrecks all this beauty.

As MarkH says, I envy you the fun you'll have over the next half dozen years (or more).

[Swing Coach]

First of all, I also like his swing for age 7.
Ray R has a key point about the boy dropping the barrell to then swing level at the ball. This creates an all arms swing. Very common for youngsters. He will need to learn to keep his hands in closer to his body....and he will need to learn to swing down at initial approach. One great drill (came from BM) is to have the kid swing down at a tee that is even with his back foot (ala Jeter etc) and drive the ball into the ground. This will get his initial move of his hands as down and forward instead of dropping straight down with the barrel. Then gradually move the tee forward so he can learn the sequence of level or up through the ball at contact. ANother great drill is a slow motion pole drill where he stands close to a pole and slow mo's a swing until he makes contact with the pole. He will have to keep his hands in to get the barrell where it needs to be and you can watch how his hands work with his back elbow instead of behind it. Also, you can see how the front elbow works here too...it will need to move toward the pitcher. If he does have bat drag...this will be difficult for him to do...but well worth it.

[Syx]

wow, i leave my computer for 1/2 a day and look what I miss!
First off, thank you all VERY much for your input. I will soak it all in.
As for my son, here is a little background about him. His swing is almost totally natural, (see my avatar - our league logo is his very first swing as a 5-year old) and he just started taking a hitting/fielding class a few weeks ago.
He is not big (4' tall 50 lbs) but he is aggressive and he attacks the ball. He is very athletic, but not exactly a rocket scientist. I will not over coach him, as I have no idea what he will understand. At this point, I just let him swing w/o saying too much. Another father described him as a little Manny - See ball, hit ball.

Anyway, sorry to ramble and once again thanks to all who replied.

Ken

[Chris O'Leary]

IMO, he needs to realize that it is against BASEBALL LAW to drop your hands and dump the barrel.

At lag position his barrel is about 12" lower than his hands.

If he gets it that he can't drop his hands to line up the barrel with the pitch he will figure out a different way to bring the bat around - same way I suspect Mickey Mantle, Hank Aaron and Ted Williams figured it out.:laugh

And maybe this is why you see Jeter and others taking practice chops coming down on the ball - reminds them to keep their hands up and not dump the barrel.

The problem is that dumping the barrel is often related to a lack of strength, which makes it hard to fix at this age. Sometimes you just have to wait a bit to try to fix it.

[RayR]

The problem is that dumping the barrel is often related to a lack of strength, which makes it hard to fix at this age. Sometimes you just have to wait a bit to try to fix it.

I don't buy it.

Dumping the barrel is about the how the hitter reconciles the problem of getting the bat lined up with the ball.

Throwing loopy pitches contributes to this.

Mandate that you have to keep their hands up/barrel up and players will do it. Same as someone would teach playing the piano.

I wouldn't care if this kid started hitting everything down at first (though I doubt he would) he would figure out how to turn better to get a better swing path.

Check this clip of Manny out. Watch his hands and barrel - Simple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS4tvvPgbKk

Syx, have your son watch this and have him copy it.

[Ursa Major]

RayR said: Dumping the barrel is about the how the hitter reconciles the problem of getting the bat lined up with the ball. Throwing loopy pitches contributes to this.Good point, Ray. Too many coach-pitch coaches think it's easier for kid to hit a lob. Not only is it hard for them to "line up" with the pitch plane without uppercutting, but it often leads to "hitches" as kids hold back on their swings. Even seven year olds can hit a pitch thrown on a line with a little practice. My son's 8 y/o team back in the day won their championship largely because the coach pitched that way.

And, I think that there is room for improvement in the youngser's connection so he doesn't need to "dump the bathead". Good connection mechanics can help overcome the very "heavy bat" issue that Chris O mentions. BTW, Syx, how big is that bat? (It looks like an Exogrid??!)
Check this clip of Manny out. Watch his hands and barrel - Simple.... Syx, have your son watch this and have him copy it. LOL -- I think even MarkH would agree that this is a little ambitious for a 4'0" 7 year old.

[hitnpeas]

Good point, Ray. Too many coach-pitch coaches think it's easier for kid to hit a lob. Not only is it hard for them to "line up" with the pitch plane without uppercutting, but it often leads to "hitches" as kids hold back on their swings. Even seven year olds can hit a pitch thrown on a line with a little practice. My son's 8 y/o team back in the day won their championship largely because the coach pitched that way.

And, I think that there is room for improvement in the youngser's connection so he doesn't need to "dump the bathead". Good connection mechanics can help overcome the very "heavy bat" issue that Chris O mentions. BTW, Syx, how big is that bat? (It looks like an Exogrid??!)
LOL -- I think even MarkH would agree that this is a little ambitious for a 4'0" 7 year old.

It is an EXO and I would guess it is the smallest they make (28/16).... If it were me, I would get him a smaller bat. 27/14,15 or 28/15.... Nothing bigger than a 15oz for a kid that size.

[GetYourBestSwing]

Thats pretty cool, always cute watching those little guys swing it like that!! lol I love from Contact Point to Power V, he's swinging with a purpose!

He strides and swings at the same time.... which at 7 you can sit and say, ahhh, he'll figure it out.... which he might or probably will. But you could play around with it. He just might have an issue being on time, getting his foot down the way he strides into the baseball so much.

but it's one swing, hell, he's 7.... he might have done it differently the next swing. lol

Just during his leg lift have him stay more balanced, have his hands and stride foot seperate at the same time..... looks like he is so wide cuz he is a little out of control with his stride foot... IMO

Freedom with the stride foot at that age isn't a bad thing though.

makes me want to go adopt a little guy.... I know what we'd be doing today!!

[RayR]

LOL -- I think even MarkH would agree that this is a little ambitious for a 4'0" 7 year old.


Perhaps, but the idea of not dropping the bat head was supposed to be the point:laugh

You never know, maybe a little bit of implicit learning will take place?

[Ursa Major]

Originally Posted by Ursa Major
LOL -- I think even MarkH would agree that this is a little ambitious for a 4'0" 7 year old.
Ray replied: Perhaps, but the idea of not dropping the bat head was supposed to be the point. You never know, maybe a little bit of implicit learning will take place? I figured that was what you were driving at, but thought I'd have a little fun. ;) Actually, Manny's game swing is not a bad one to emulate a little bit, but here he was being very casual, with little tilt or movement from the middle.

Sometimes guys like this are good models to pull out when very kids start messing around and doing really bizarre things with their swings, like when Ursa Minor started holding the bat parallel to the ground with his hands touching the front of the bill of his helment. So, you can take swings like this and say, "Look, dude, no successful player in the history of baseball has tried this batting stance -- do you see Manny doing it?"

Where I think the real value of Manny's swing is that he shows the connection between the back elbow dropping and the bat being turned into the swing plane. Too many kids drop their back elbow too early, and then when they later drop the bat head there is no dynamism in the process to link it to the forward movement of the back shoulder.

[Mark H]

Good point, Ray. Too many coach-pitch coaches think it's easier for kid to hit a lob. Not only is it hard for them to "line up" with the pitch plane without uppercutting, but it often leads to "hitches" as kids hold back on their swings. Even seven year olds can hit a pitch thrown on a line with a little practice. My son's 8 y/o team back in the day won their championship largely because the coach pitched that way. .

Ditto.


LOL -- I think even MarkH would agree that this is a little ambitious for a 4'0" 7 year old.

Yeah but copying Manny is a great long term goal. :)