Bat Drag question

[mcloven]

Bat drag is obviously a major swing flaw and seems most prevelant in kids swinging at high pitches (waist high or above) or lob pitching. The problem is that a lot of coaches tend to throw higher/slower pitches to young kids and most kids can hit those pitches with bat drag. The young player will then be "successful" in practice and not see a reason to change his approach...so any attempts to help correct this flaw may fall on deaf ears.

I want to help my players understand why bat drag is an issue and to help them improve their swings so they can continue playing at upper levels.

Is it possible to hit a low fastball while having bat drag? It seems like it would be next to impossible to hit that pitch successfully and might help the youngster understand the harm of having bat drag.

Is having a coach throw a young player low fastballs in practice a decent way to help cure bat drag (or at least to help get the player to understand why bat drag is an issue)? Perhaps throwing fast (underhand) pitches at the knees, at a relatively close distance from behind an L screen?

[FiveFrameSwing]

Is it possible to hit a low fastball while having bat drag?


Yes, it is possible to hit a low fastball with a faulty bat drag mechanic.



Is having a coach throw a young player low fastballs in practice a decent way to help cure bat drag (or at least to help get the player to understand why bat drag is an issue)? Perhaps throwing fast (underhand) pitches at the knees, at a relatively close distance from behind an L screen?

I'm all for head-on soft-toss ... but not a big fan of head-on fast-toss ... IMO neither is a cure for correcting bat drag.

On this message board BoardMember has given a decent description of fixing bat drag.

If you post a video clip of the kid you'll find that posters here will give you good advice for correcting the issue.

[Mark H]

Assuming we are talking the same definitions I agree with FFS. Mc is your bat drag definition the same as these clips? http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis;jsessionid=ev3jnrec22.buffalo_s?n=0&z=9&c=4&x=0&m=20&w=0&p=0
See 21 through 24.

[mcloven]

Thanks...yes, that's it. Unfortunately, I don't have a video clip, I'll see if I can shoot some at our next practice.

Is boardmember's fix/cue telling them to act like they're hitting the ball with their back shoulder?

Do some of these issues "fix themselves" as kids get stronger and also adjust to hitting faster pitching? It seems to me that nearly every young kid (under 10) has at least some bat drag...even the so-called "top players."

[FiveFrameSwing]

Thanks...yes, that's it. Unfortunately, I don't have a video clip, I'll see if I can shoot some at our next practice.

Is boardmember's fix/cue telling them to act like they're hitting the ball with their back shoulder?

Do some of these issues "fix themselves" as kids get stronger and also adjust to hitting faster pitching? It seems to me that nearly every young kid (under 10) has at least some bat drag...even the so-called "top players."

No, the cue of throwing the back shoulder is not a fix to bat drag.

Perhaps we can get BM to write a thread on the topic ... as he's frequently addressed this issue. Would be nice to have a link to reference.

IMO this problem will restrict a student from playing at a high level. A few weeks back I had a junior in high school come to me with this issue. I laid it out to them. IMO this issue was going to prevent them from playing in college, would make it difficult for them to be a signficant contributor on their HS team, and would result in them sitting on the bench on most competitive travel teams. IMO the kid's career was basically over if they didn't address this.

Perhaps I shouldn't have been so blunt ... because the kid skipped out of their next hitting session. IMO their career just came to an abrupt end.

Had someone caught this issue earlier, then things would have been much less frustrating for this individual.

My advice ... fix the issue and don't allow success against low level pitching to be an excuse to maintain the issue.

[alpo]

Perhaps we can get BM to write a thread on the topic ... as he's frequently addressed this issue. Would be nice to have a link to reference.

That would be great. I have had and will have many kids w/ bat drag, including
my son. Any advice on helping to fix this would be appreciated.

[ssarge]

That would be great. I have had and will have many kids w/ bat drag, including my son. Any advice on helping to fix this would be appreciated.

The right attitude.

And you are right with your surmise of how common it is - close to 50% of the kids I see have this problem to at least some extent.

Boardmember does have some great advice for fixing the problem, and I hope he weighs in.

I have had good luck with an approach mandating that the kid keep his / her hands in the shoulder plane (meaning at a height consistent with the rear shoulder).

MOST (not all) kids with bat drag are able to do this with some drill work and consistent focus on the problem. What you are striving for is a rear forearm that is basically vertical. Meaning that the hands WILL be about level with the shoulder.

This is very consistent with the position of most elite hitters as they turn the corner. Some elite hitters definitely turn the corner with the hands trailing the rear elbow slightly. But as long as the rear forearm is vertical (virtually always true with elite hitters) and the hands are basically at the same height as the rear shoulder, the problem self corrects as the swing unwinds.


While you are working on keeping the hands at the same height as the rear shoulder, keep them from pressing forward (towards the center of the chest) as well. If you can do both, there is an extremely good chance that the kid will be pretty well connected, and assuming they create some good momentum and rotate well (with hips leading the upper body), they are going to have good success.

Best regards,

Scott

[FiveFrameSwing]

Here's some video clips to go along with Scott's description.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Mannyswivel_PowV.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Manny21_PowV.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/RyanHoward_PowV.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/BondsSide_PowV.gif

IMO the solution resides largely with the top hand ... and includes the loading of the top hand/barrel, as well as not laying-off the top hand prematurely (i.e., not allowing the top hand palm to point skywards prematurely), ... but it is important to have a connected swing and avoid the bat barrel from being trapped. It would help a great deal to have a video clip of the student to better target specific advice.

[alpo]

Thanks for all of the tips. I'll have video w/ my son in the next month or so.

[ssarge]

Thanks for the videos, Chris.

This very phenomenon is why I have trouble supporting the RVP / Slaught (among many others) description of skipping a rock. I can't reconcile the two.

Happy Holidays! and best regards,

Scott

[FiveFrameSwing]

Thanks for the videos, Chris.

This very phenomenon is why I have trouble supporting the RVP / Slaught (among many others) description of skipping a rock. I can't reconcile the two.

Happy Holidays! and best regards,

Scott

Scott ..... IMO it is important to understand then when performing the sidearm throwing drill that the rear forearm relates to the 'bat'. Otherwise one could incorrectly trash a drill that is extremely helpful in terms of promoting the "timing" and "proper synchronization" of the lower body mechanics with the top arm/hand. I can't stress enough that it is natural for a large percentage of my students to get their lower body mechanics well synchronized with the upper body using this drill .... and then of course carrying this synchronization over to the swing, in a set of progression drills, is relatively straight forward.

[dominik]

Thanks...yes, that's it. Unfortunately, I don't have a video clip, I'll see if I can shoot some at our next practice.

Is boardmember's fix/cue telling them to act like they're hitting the ball with their back shoulder?

Do some of these issues "fix themselves" as kids get stronger and also adjust to hitting faster pitching? It seems to me that nearly every young kid (under 10) has at least some bat drag...even the so-called "top players."

I think that hit w the back shoulder is the fix for disconnection in the other way(hands getting ahead of the back shoulder to much.

Bat drag is disconnection in the other direction(hands getting behind the shoulder and elbow instead of ahead.

[dominik]

The right attitude.

And you are right with your surmise of how common it is - close to 50% of the kids I see have this problem to at least some extent.

Boardmember does have some great advice for fixing the problem, and I hope he weighs in.

I have had good luck with an approach mandating that the kid keep his / her hands in the shoulder plane (meaning at a height consistent with the rear shoulder).

MOST (not all) kids with bat drag are able to do this with some drill work and consistent focus on the problem. What you are striving for is a rear forearm that is basically vertical. Meaning that the hands WILL be about level with the shoulder.

This is very consistent with the position of most elite hitters as they turn the corner. Some elite hitters definitely turn the corner with the hands trailing the rear elbow slightly. But as long as the rear forearm is vertical (virtually always true with elite hitters) and the hands are basically at the same height as the rear shoulder, the problem self corrects as the swing unwinds.


While you are working on keeping the hands at the same height as the rear shoulder, keep them from pressing forward (towards the center of the chest) as well. If you can do both, there is an extremely good chance that the kid will be pretty well connected, and assuming they create some good momentum and rotate well (with hips leading the upper body), they are going to have good success.

Best regards,

Scott

Does that mean that the back forarm should point to the sky? At contact the forearm is vertical isn't it? So does it get down in the swing?

[ssarge]

Scott ..... IMO it is important to understand then when performing the sidearm throwing drill that the rear forearm relates to the 'bat'. Otherwise one could incorrectly trash a drill that is extremely helpful in terms of promoting the "timing" and "proper synchronization" of the lower body mechanics with the top arm/hand. I can't stress enough that it is natural for a large percentage of my students to get their lower body mechanics well synchronized with the upper body using this drill .... and then of course carrying this synchronization over to the swing, in a set of progression drills, is relatively straight forward.

Thanks, Chris.

I support ANY drill(s) that engenders the correct behavior. A hitting instructor who is getting consistently good results across multiple students with a drill is a solid endorsement.

Here is my problem, though: The position / drill "skipping a rock" is unfortunate nomenclature, in my mind. Skipping a rock is a VERY specific and understandable movement - like squishing a bug - that a kid intuitively grasps in a literal sense.

That's not to say that the drill couldn't work in the hands of a quality instructor - I accept that it is working for you.

But MOST of the people buying instructional materials will not / do not have the benefit of an instructional presence. Absent further description / safeguards / rails they will implement the drill AS DESCRIBED.

Unless I missed it (possible), there is NO warning in the RVP instructional materials about the necessity of keeping a vertical rear forearm, and keeping the hands in the shoulder plane. Since I have never seen anyone skip a rock WITHOUT dropping the rear forearm about 90 degrees, it seems to me that could easily happen to a kid trying to "skip a rock" while swinging. Perhaps NOT (though who knows?) with a kid who is supervised by an instructor. (Epstein has had videos on his site of kids with bat drag, and it apparently doesn't concern him too much. It DOES concern me.) But regardless, with the kid left alone, it seems to me inevitable.

CLEARLY, from that position, bat drag is at least a RISK. Since close to half the kids I initially see struggle with bat drag, I have concerns with this.

Happy Holidays!

Scott

[bob_r]

I'm not sure if this is the thread with BoardMember's advice, be he gives a guarantee to fix bat drag.

http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=66049&referrerid=10925