Chris O'Leary Rotational Hitting 101

[GetYourBestSwing]

I have some opinions I'd like to share about this DVD.

I will watch it again and take notes to make sure it doesn't seem like I am just flaming. I will have more time tonight.
Quite honestly there won't be much note taking. Especially the drills part, you shouldn't charge money for this DVD Chris... should be posted on Youtube if you want to get your information out there.

You can't charge this much for a DVD and present the video in the middle of the woods Chris. I'm sure it was your backyard, but are you serious? Find an indoor cage or do it in the summer near a cage, or on a baseball field.... something. Wow. The presentation of the DVD is very poor and dissapointing. Really is a portrayal of the DVD itself.

But, genius really, I paid the $60 for the DVD. I'm going to have to go give a couple lessons to get this money back. lol

I thought the Drills section would be interesting.... yikes.

Like I said, I'll come back with more educated thoughts, but just got done watching the DVD in the office. See you boys tonight.

[FiveFrameSwing]

A couple of points ... .... ....

1: Chris has been somewhat critical of Epstein as of late, and as such he's invited others to go through his material with a critical eye.

2: Chris offers FREE Upgrade Protection
"While I have worked hard to make sure that this DVD is as comprehensive as possible, I know that my ability to explain and teach the major league swing to baseball and fast pitch softball players will improve over time. As a result, every person who buys version 1.0 of my Rotational Hitting 101 DVD is eligible to receive a FREE copy of the next version of my Rotational Hitting 101 DVD when it becomes available."

My guess is that Chris is actually inviting others to critique his material so that he can improve on it. This is actually a healthy attitude.

[Mark H]

Chris has definitely been on a quest for knowledge so I have to agree with FFS. I also don't care about production values and the outdoors thing in general though I haven't seen the video. I care about the information.

[wogdoggy]

hey for 60 bucks your saving money over all the other self proclaimed gu rus..

save your money and go buy the louisville slugger book on hitting..100 times the stuff for 10 cents on the dollar.:clapping

and btw this is no "dig" at chris's video,

[callyjr]

tempting.......... but I'll pass.

Have a Merry Christmas Chris

[TG Coach]

You should see his pitching video!

:laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh

Ask Chris about his playing background. He played the game all the way through LL. I'm sorry if I'm sarcastic and critical. But how can a person who never played the game at any kind of level know anything than what he's taken from someone else?

[Chris O'Leary]

I have some opinions I'd like to share about this DVD.

I am always interested in productive feedback.


Quite honestly there won't be much note taking. Especially the drills part, you shouldn't charge money for this DVD Chris... should be posted on Youtube if you want to get your information out there.

I have a specific point of view on drills.

Basically, I think they are over-emphasized (often just to sell DVDs).

I am more concerned that people get the key concepts of what a good, high level swing looks like.


You can't charge this much for a DVD and present the video in the middle of the woods Chris. I'm sure it was your backyard, but are you serious? Find an indoor cage or do it in the summer near a cage, or on a baseball field.... something. Wow. The presentation of the DVD is very poor and dissapointing. Really is a portrayal of the DVD itself.

I am working to address this issue.


I thought the Drills section would be interesting.... yikes.

Again, I think people put too much emphasis on drills.

[Chris O'Leary]

Ask Chris about his playing background. He played the game all the way through LL. I'm sorry if I'm sarcastic and critical. But how can a person who never played the game at any kind of level know anything than what he's taken from someone else?

1. I know plenty of high-level people who know little to nothing about what a good, major league swing looks like.

2. Most of my ideas are the result of studying video of the best hitters, something that I wish more people did.

3. One of my followers just got an invite to ST with a major league league team. I'm going to spend the next few weeks working to get his swing as good as possible and then feed that knowledge back into the next version of my DVD. The thing we're working on right now is his load (or lack thereof) and the timing of it, because I think some inconsistencies there may be causing him some problems.

[Chris O'Leary]

I have some opinions I'd like to share about this DVD. I will watch it again and take notes to make sure it doesn't seem like I am just flaming. I will have more time tonight. Quite honestly there won't be much note taking. Especially the drills part, you shouldn't charge money for this DVD Chris... should be posted on Youtube if you want to get your information out there.

I am really only interested in what I say, or how I say it, that you think is wrong.

The other stuff I really don't care that much about because I am already working on it.

Also, please keep in mind that the contents of the DVD are copyrighted.

[Dirtberry]

Chris,

Go get um! Do not be discouraged!

I particularly like the Marshall marketing tactic of all the next DVD’s being free!

The best DVD will be the one that has the least amount of information that gets the greatest results!

[omg]

You should see his pitching video!

:laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh

Ask Chris about his playing background. He played the game all the way through LL. I'm sorry if I'm sarcastic and critical. But how can a person who never played the game at any kind of level know anything than what he's taken from someone else?

I have to give some credit to somebody admitting to a lack of playing experience. I can't tell you how many I've come across who flat LIE about their experience or, at the very least,either embellish it or who have,uh, creative recollections.

[Chris O'Leary]

I have to give some credit to somebody admitting to a lack of playing experience. I can't tell you how many I've come across who flat LIE about their experience or, at the very least,either embellish it or who have,uh, creative recollections.

Thanks.

As Catching Coach says so well, we could talk about my playing experience, but it would be a really short conversation.

What I'm selling is my understanding of the major league swing and my ability to explain it to ordinary people.

[TG Coach]

3. One of my followers just got an invite to ST with a major league league team.

I've coached kids in 18U that went on to play college ball. I've never taken credit for their success. They're playing college ball because they're that good. I was just a port on the path.

[TG Coach]

I have to give some credit to somebody admitting to a lack of playing experience. I can't tell you how many I've come across who flat LIE about their experience or, at the very least,either embellish it or who have,uh, creative recollections.

Then there are people who attempt to create combative situations on boards for the sake of creating a flame war. Go look somewhere else.

[Chris O'Leary]

Then there are people who attempt to create combative situations on boards for the sake of creating a flame war.

It was never my intention to make myself look good by making Mike Epstein look bad and I apologize if it came across that way.

I was just a few years late to the conversation about Mike Epstein's drills (like the Fence Drill) and was trying to understand why people were critical of them and to describe my own experience with them.

I'm sorry if people interpreted my questions as attacks.

[Chris O'Leary]

I've coached kids in 18U that went on to play college ball. I've never taken credit for their success. They're playing college ball because they're that good. I was just a port on the path.

As am I.

All I'm trying to do is get him back to a swing that allows him to use his innate skills to their maximum advantage.

The problem is that he was taught a bunch of linear cues (by major league level hitting coaches) that were making his swing worse and not better.

[FiveFrameSwing]

You should see his pitching video!

:laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh

Ask Chris about his playing background. He played the game all the way through LL. I'm sorry if I'm sarcastic and critical. But how can a person who never played the game at any kind of level know anything than what he's taken from someone else?

I take issue with this comment.

IMO when folks are looking for an instructor, what they should be looking for is an instructor that has produced the product that they are looking for. Whether or not the person has played at a professional level is somewhat irrelevent. What is important is that instructor has produced what it is you wish to acquire. Make sure the instructor has students that have swing characteristics representative of the direction you wish to head in.

[TG Coach]

It was never my intention to make myself look good by making Mike Epstein look bad and I apologize if it came across that way.

I was just a few years late to the conversation about Mike Epstein's drills (like the Fence Drill) and was trying to understand why people were critical of them and to describe my own experience with them.

I'm sorry if people interpreted my questions as attacks.

My last comment wasn't directed at you.

[TG Coach]

I take issue with this comment.

IMO when folks are looking for an instructor, what they should be looking for is an instructor that has produced the product that they are looking for. Whether or not the person has played at a professional level is somewhat irrelevent. What is important is that instructor has produced what it is you wish to acquire. Make sure the instructor has students that have swing characteristics representative of the direction you wish to head in.

If a person never played past LL what experience are they applying their theories against? I could understand a person going to an expert, telling them Joe Average doesn't understand their theories, and help them develop a more understandable video. But to take other people's information, condense it and call it your own is something else.

[Chris O'Leary]

Just so that people are clear on why I created a hitting DVD, let me lay out a few thoughts about what I am, and amn't, trying to do.

1. While I do think that production values matter, at this point I'm more concerned with feedback on what I say than where it's filmed. It's harder than most people realize to find a good, inexpensive place to shoot a hitting DVD. That's probably why Steve E and others film their stuff in parks and such. My goal with this version of the DVD was to find a locale that was simply good enough (but not perfect). I'm still looking for the perfect place to shoot the next version of my DVD.

2. I have listened to some of the criticisms of Steve E's DVD and invested in a $300 wireless microphone system and a $700 camera.

3. Based on my own experience and the experiences of others, I think most hitting DVD's are too complicated for ordinary people. As a result, I am deliberately trying to dumb down my presentation of the material.

4. I think most instructors and DVDs are too focused on drills, due in part to the fact that selling drills is a good way to force people to buy your DVDs. While I think some drills can help, I think the industry has gotten off the rails a bit in this respect.

[BigGeorge]

I have a specific point of view on drills.

Basically, I think they are over-emphasized (often just to sell DVDs).

Again, I think people put too much emphasis on drills.



I am in complete disagreement on the use and effectiveness of drills.

For one, drills can are invaluable to the learning process because they can isolate a particular problem area that a hitter in experiencing. With your ST invitee, a few load drills in conjunction with tee and cage work could easily be the quickest way to correct such shortcomings.

Number two, drills allow hitters (especially young hitters) to get real progress away from their coaches, parents and teammates. In the comfort of their bedrooms or garages or backyards, hitters can make significant improvement on their own. Watchful eyes are often a distraction to hitters so solo work is often the ticket to improvement. YMMV.

[CoachB25]

I take issue with this comment.

IMO when folks are looking for an instructor, what they should be looking for is an instructor that has produced the product that they are looking for. Whether or not the person has played at a professional level is somewhat irrelevent. What is important is that instructor has produced what it is you wish to acquire. Make sure the instructor has students that have swing characteristics representative of the direction you wish to head in.

In regards to this comment, I have a friend who life was not very kind to at birth. He wasn't able to play this great game. However, when I made my staff, I asked him to be on it. He loves the game. He can quote just about every stat there ever was of baseball. He is a baseball junkie. When he started working with the kids, he really paid attention to detail. Once I explained a drill or given goal for a certain player, he stuck to it and did so well. I also believe that the kids were better for being around him. I'm thankful that he was my assistant coach.

[Chris O'Leary]

If a person never played past LL what experience are they applying their theories against?

I evaluate what I teach against what the best hitters in the world actually do (thanks Mark H). I have received very positive feedback about my analyses from people at the highest levels of baseball and fast pitch softball, so I think what I teach is solid.

That covers me on the mechanical things, but admittedly leaves me guessing when it comes to some issues of approach and strategy (which is why I don't address those issues in my DVD).


I could understand a person going to an expert, telling them Joe Average doesn't understand their theories, and help them develop a more understandable video. But to take other people's information, condense it and call it your own is something else.

First, as I have said, and been attacked for, I haven't view ANY proprietary information of ANY guru (I only just got Epstein's book on Friday). I have done that so that nobody can accuse me of stealing anything from anyone. All I have done is take the information that's in the public domain and that seems to be the consensus of this and other good boards.

In other words, I am just trying to teach what the best hitters in the world actually do.

Second, on my web site, and in the acknowledgments portion of my Rotational Hitting 101 (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/RethinkingHitting/Essays/RotationalHitting.html) article, who has influenced me.

In a lot of ways, I'm doing the same thing as anyone who's writing a physics textbook. The laws of physics are what they are, so the only way you can add value is by explaining them better and/or more clearly than anyone else.

[Chris O'Leary]

I am in complete disagreement on the use and effectiveness of drills.

For one, drills can are invaluable to the learning process because they can isolate a particular problem area that a hitter in experiencing. With your ST invitee, a few load drills in conjunction with tee and cage work could easily be the quickest way to correct such shortcomings.

Number two, drills allow hitters (especially young hitters) to get real progress away from their coaches, parents and teammates. In the comfort of their bedrooms or garages or backyards, hitters can make significant improvement on their own. Watchful eyes are often a distraction to hitters so solo work is often the ticket to improvement. YMMV.

Just to be clear, I'm not opposed to all drills.

The good ones clearly have their place.

However, I think that many people have taken the drill thing much too far.

[Chris O'Leary]

In regards to this comment, I have a friend who life was not very kind to at birth. He wasn't able to play this great game. However, when I made my staff, I asked him to be on it. He loves the game. He can quote just about every stat there ever was of baseball. He is a baseball junkie. When he started working with the kids, he really paid attention to detail. Once I explained a drill or given goal for a certain player, he stuck to it and did so well. I also believe that the kids were better for being around him. I'm thankful that he was my assistant coach.

First, I would argue that some of the things that make me a good analyst are the same things that made me a mediocre player.

I would also argue that the opposite is true of many people.

Second, I do tons of coaching for my kids and their teams...

- Soccer
- Volleyball
- Basketball
- Baseball
- Softball
- Diving

In my experience, many of the least effective youth coaches that I have known, regardless of the sport, were tremendous players (e.g. D-1 college). The problem is that they often have little to no idea how to develop a skill in an ordinary kid because it all came naturally to them. My advantage is that I don't get lost in all the nuances and high-level minutiae of the game and don't get ahead of the kids. As a result, I am able to focus on the key fundamentals (and there are usually just 2 or 3 per sport) that really matter when it comes to coaching and winning with ordinary kids.

[TG Coach]

3. Based on my own experience and the experiences of others, I think most hitting DVD's are too complicated for ordinary people. As a result, I am deliberately trying to dumb down my presentation of the material.

I agree. Out of curiosity I bought Epstein's book on rotational hitting. I often found myself in front of the mirror doing what he said to make sure I understood what he was stating.

I can picture a dad hearing of Epstein, buying the material and then having his eyes spin in opposite directions when he tries to understand it if he never got quality hitting instruction himself.

[Chris O'Leary]

My last comment wasn't directed at you.

OK, but I still want people to understand what I am, and am not, trying to do by asking questions.

[BigGeorge]

Just to be clear, I'm not opposed to all drills.

The good ones clearly have their place.

However, I think that many people have taken the drill thing much too far.


I didn't take it that you were anti-drill or no-drill. The way I see it, for a hitting instructor who is attempting to break muscle-memory patterns, repetitive drills are really the best (only?) way to get hitters to learn new patterns. If they're relevant to the new pattern or move, I don't see how they're going "too far". I guess I would need an examples of these gurus who are "overdoing" it for the sake of profit. I don't have your DVD (and won't) but if they are short of relevant drills that would be a shortcoming I think you should address in upcoming releases.

[Chris O'Leary]

1. I know plenty of high-level people who know little to nothing about what a good, major league swing looks like.

As an example of what I'm talking about, here's part of an e-mail I received from a guy who is now managing a Class A team...

Do yourself a favor and go back to the drawing board when talking about the upper body of these great hitters swings. You do a pretty nice job of explaining the lower half but then blow it on the hands and upper body. Take a good look at your clips and tell me where Pujols' hands go after he makes contact with those arms bent...they work "through the zone" just like your overhead video clip of Linear hitting shows. That is what we term extension through the zone. This "connection" you describe with the back elbow (which is dead right) actually is a slot that the back elbow extends through to give your barrel more time in the zone. The diagrams of Pete Rose from overhead are WAY off. You will only see Albert's hands work in a circle if he is ridiculously jammed on an inside pitch.

[Chris O'Leary]

I thought the Drills section would be interesting.... yikes.

As part of my efforts to dumb the material down so that it's understandable by ordinary people, I have stripped down the drills section to what I think are the bare essentials (and not everything that I know or all the drills I use).

When I first scripted this DVD out, I realized I had something like 6 to 7 hours of material. All of my research and feedback told me that what the world needs is a more simple, but still accurate, primer and not another big, long, comprehensive, but overly detailed and technical DVD.

In fact, I'm still working to cut the basic DVD down in length and roll the more advanced stuff into a second DVD.

[FiveFrameSwing]

As an example of what I'm talking about, here's part of an e-mail I received from a guy who is now managing a Class A team...

Do yourself a favor and go back to the drawing board when talking about the upper body of these great hitters swings. You do a pretty nice job of explaining the lower half but then blow it on the hands and upper body. Take a good look at your clips and tell me where Pujols' hands go after he makes contact with those arms bent...they work "through the zone" just like your overhead video clip of Linear hitting shows. That is what we term extension through the zone. This "connection" you describe with the back elbow (which is dead right) actually is a slot that the back elbow extends through to give your barrel more time in the zone. The diagrams of Pete Rose from overhead are WAY off. You will only see Albert's hands work in a circle if he is ridiculously jammed on an inside pitch.

Interesting response Chris. What I found most interesting was the following .... "This 'connection' you describe with the back elbow (which is dead right) actually is a slot that the back elbow extends through to give your barrel more time in the zone."

Chris Yeager spoke of the importance of this last weekend.

Here's a couple of quick video clips on the topic.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/RyanHoward_PowV.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Manny21_PowV.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/BondsSide_PowV.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Mannyswivel_PowV.gif

[Chris O'Leary]

I didn't take it that you were anti-drill or no-drill. The way I see it, for a hitting instructor who is attempting to break muscle-memory patterns, repetitive drills are really the best (only?) way to get hitters to learn new patterns. If they're relevant to the new pattern or move, I don't see how they're going "too far". I guess I would need an examples of these gurus who are "overdoing" it for the sake of profit. I don't have your DVD (and won't) but if they are short of relevant drills that would be a shortcoming I think you should address in upcoming releases.

IMO, the problem with many of the drills out there is that they do not take into account phenomenonae like bat drag. As a result, too many people spend too much time perfecting swings that will work at a drill station, off of a tee, or even at the batting cages but that do not work in a game setting.

My point of view on this has been shaped by the many people who have approached me over the years who have kids who hit great in practice but who don't hit nearly that well in game situations.

[Chris O'Leary]

I've coached kids in 18U that went on to play college ball. I've never taken credit for their success. They're playing college ball because they're that good. I was just a port on the path.

As another example of this, let me tell you about one kid I am working with who is a D-1 college hitter.

He has a beautiful swing and is absolutely textbook at what should be the point of contact. The problem is that over the years he has been taught that he has to attack the ball, be aggressive, and go get it. As a result, he has a tendency to make contact with the ball way out front, by which point he is lunging and has bled off most of his bat speed.

All I'm trying to do is improve his approach so that he makes contact with the ball in the place, and in the way, that maximizes his potential.

I'm mostly just trying to help him undo something that some ill-informed coach taught him to do.

[beemax]

Just so that people are clear on why I created a hitting DVD, let me lay out a few thoughts about what I am, and amn't, trying to do.

1. While I do think that production values matter, at this point I'm more concerned with feedback on what I say than where it's filmed.

You are charging people $60 a pop to gain their feedback? Please tell me you are not serious.

I have no problem with you posting something here or on youtube to gain feedback, but if you are charging $60 bucks a DVD to gain it, that is highway robbery.

[Chris O'Leary]

You are charging people $60 a pop to gain their feedback?

Of course not, but I will always accept feedback to make my stuff better.

[GetYourBestSwing]

I evaluate what I teach against what the best hitters in the world actually do (thanks Mark H). I have received very positive feedback about my analyses from people at the highest levels of baseball and fast pitch softball, so I think what I teach is solid.

That covers me on the mechanical things, but admittedly leaves me guessing when it comes to some issues of approach and strategy (which is why I don't address those issues in my DVD).




First, as I have said, and been attacked for, I haven't view ANY proprietary information of ANY guru (I only just got Epstein's book on Friday). I have done that so that nobody can accuse me of stealing anything from anyone. All I have done is take the information that's in the public domain and that seems to be the consensus of this and other good boards.

In other words, I am just trying to teach what the best hitters in the world actually do.

Second, on my web site, and in the acknowledgments portion of my Rotational Hitting 101 (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/RethinkingHitting/Essays/RotationalHitting.html) article, who has influenced me.

In a lot of ways, I'm doing the same thing as anyone who's writing a physics textbook. The laws of physics are what they are, so the only way you can add value is by explaining them better and/or more clearly than anyone else.

I understand you have been contacted by ballplayers from baseball and softball and you have helped.... that is great. I really commend you for that.


I will just explain my background briefly as well, which I have before on here too I think, but I don't post often enough for anyone to have any idea who I am or make any earth shattering posts to be remembered , haha... just want to make sure it's clear I'm not a little league father trying to teach my 8 year old how to hit... lol... I don't have kids, more importantly a wife yet.... thank god. lol

I have coached at the college level since 2004 as a hitting instructor and also coach our outfielders. We have finished in the top 10 in the nation in hitting 3 of the 5 years I've been here hitting .356, .358 and last year when we didn't finish in the top 10, shoot, we hit a measley .326.... but scored 40 more runs than the previous season... really what matters isn't it? lol
I dont want to get into how overrated batting average is, trust me I know...lol.... I could post power numbers too, but I'm just showing I coach... not just sit on the sidelines and criticize.

I also manage a team in a premiere summer league. The highest offensive draft pick that i've worked with is an 8th rounder in the 2008 draft from New Orleans. I clearly had zero part in him getting drafted, he's a hitting machine, however he still emails me 3 or 4 times a month asking advice or sending me swing clips... it's a really fun relationship, good kid that has a chance to be a fringe big leaguer. Actually had another kid from Dallas Baptist, which had an unbelievable season and has one of the best hitting guys in the nation by the way, email me today in fact just talking about hitting. It's extremely fun when hitting and baseball is your passion to be able to help kids on this level.
Other players I've worked with are from Stanford, Dallas Baptist, Oregon State, Texas A&M, Illinois.... yada, yada, yada.
Also given in the last 4 years private instruction and given A LOT of lessons. I love it and it helps you get better at teaching hitting, it really does.

My whole point is just to express that any opinions I give isn't to start an argument that often develops on these threads.... I shouldn't have even started the thread but I was just very dissapointed in the DVD itself..... Chris, you do a nice job on these forums and your website is resourceful... I don't know how to put something that organized together, too stupid really. lol

[GetYourBestSwing]

I am really only interested in what I say, or how I say it, that you think is wrong.

The other stuff I really don't care that much about because I am already working on it.

Also, please keep in mind that the contents of the DVD are copyrighted.


I'm going to be 100% honest, you have to explain to me what the copyright means to know what I can and can not post.

I probably sound like a total idiot not knowing this, but before I give any opinions on your DVD.... just tell me what not to post so I don't go to jail. lol

[GetYourBestSwing]

Just so that people are clear on why I created a hitting DVD, let me lay out a few thoughts about what I am, and amn't, trying to do.

1. While I do think that production values matter, at this point I'm more concerned with feedback on what I say than where it's filmed. It's harder than most people realize to find a good, inexpensive place to shoot a hitting DVD. That's probably why Steve E and others film their stuff in parks and such. My goal with this version of the DVD was to find a locale that was simply good enough (but not perfect). I'm still looking for the perfect place to shoot the next version of my DVD.

2. I have listened to some of the criticisms of Steve E's DVD and invested in a $300 wireless microphone system and a $700 camera.

3. Based on my own experience and the experiences of others, I think most hitting DVD's are too complicated for ordinary people. As a result, I am deliberately trying to dumb down my presentation of the material.

4. I think most instructors and DVDs are too focused on drills, due in part to the fact that selling drills is a good way to force people to buy your DVDs. While I think some drills can help, I think the industry has gotten off the rails a bit in this respect.


#1- I disagree with your comment here. Where do you do all your teaching to hitters? I won't even get into this portion of it. You have to have a hitting facility, cage, gymnasium.... something near you if you do any teaching.

#2- Seems unnecessary, just use the cages where you do all your teaching at. Use a corner of a gymnasium if you don't have a cage. I just don't get it. lol

#3- Your presentation is very poor. I think you do a nice job typing what you have to say, showing it is a whole different animal. I will point out many times where your demonstration is very confusing. Teach what we see right? I'll show you plenty of times where you just don't do this and make it very awkward and confusing.

#4- You agree that GOOD drills are productive.... so show us the GOOD drills.... not how kids should play wiffleball and stickball... not "self-toss"....not the "Hip Isolation Drill" that I did as a high school senior in 1997 that can promote serious squishing of the bug.

[omg]

3. Based on my own experience and the experiences of others, I think most hitting DVD's are too complicated for ordinary people. As a result, I am deliberately trying to dumb down my presentation of the material.

I agree. Out of curiosity I bought Epstein's book on rotational hitting. I often found myself in front of the mirror doing what he said to make sure I understood what he was stating.

I can picture a dad hearing of Epstein, buying the material and then having his eyes spin in opposite directions when he tries to understand it if he never got quality hitting instruction himself.

Going back to the issue of playing experience you are right in the sense that it would be very difficult to overcome a lack of real experience when it comes to teaching hitting. But it can be done; we are all limited by various degrees of inexperience.

You are also correct that I am trying to stir up a little trouble with my comments. When I read something that smacks of pompousness I just can't resist. Sorry about that. I think I've made some good observations on some threads. Maybe not.

[GetYourBestSwing]

The reason I'm more interested in drills is because your explanation of the rotational swing and making sure we watch major league swings... bla bla bla... that just isn't new.
You act like your one of the first ones to put any of this to use. I can't even explain the amount of hours I spent 4, 5 years ago making sure I taught the universal points of the swing.... and I didn't just throw my OPINIONS on people. We don't teach Opinions in our program, we teach facts that can be proven on video compared to big leaguers and other professional and college players... so a player learns how to get their best swing off in game situations.
Teaching hitting is my job and livelihood..... so I take particular offense when you constantly refer to "college level players, coaches" that don't "teach what we see."



A lot of college coaches have, they just don't have a website to display all their information.

Point being, I wanted to see drills you incorporated to teach your students Posture, Rotation, Connection, Circular Hand Path, Seperation, Tilt, Intent.
Why I was so dissapointed in the drills section.

[GetYourBestSwing]

Going back to the issue of playing experience you are right in the sense that it would be very difficult to overcome a lack of real experience when it comes to teaching hitting. But it can be done; we are all limited by various degrees of inexperience.

You are also correct that I am trying to stir up a little trouble with my comments. When I read something that smacks of pompousness I just can't resist. Sorry about that. I think I've made some good observations on some threads. Maybe not.


In the 5 years I have coached college baseball - I can count on one hand the number of players that asked me where I played in college or asked me anything about my playing days.

Players don't care if you show your passion to make them better and make yourself available to them. they just flat out don't care.

[GetYourBestSwing]

First few complaints of $60 DVD.

I am a terrible internet poster, my posts are far too long... so bare with me. I am trying to get better. haha


Some quotes that bothered me.

#1 At the end of showing WHAT A GOOD SWING LOOKS LIKE...You said, and I quote.... "Keep in mind it's not possible without swinging hard to demonstrate these concepts." "You'll see me squishing the bug, with too sharp of angle cuz I'm not swinging hard."
Isn't the point of a DVD to demonstrate concepts? You constantly demonstrated aspects of the swing very poorly.... which you so kindly addressed at the end of WHAT A GOOD SWING LOOKS LIKE. I'm very glad you did in fact, I give you credit for that, but your demonstrations on Connection and Seperation are very poor.... A person learning hitting for the first time will understand that?? no shot. There are players, fathers, who are going to use your demonstrations to learn the swing.... but you can't demonstrate the concepts correctly?? You just talk about them???? Are you assuming everyone learns by listening?
You can demonstrate those concepts correctly, I will show you in my video how to do it yourself.... and I will also show you how using a player to do your demonstrations and drills isn't a bad idea if you aren't very good at showing it.

#2- One of your cues for LINEAR HITTING that you are opposed too is "KEEP YOUR FRONT SHOULDER CLOSED".... however, in your SEPERATION demonstration you vehemently state "try to keep the shoulder closed while hips open"

HUH???? You also state "keep your front shoulder closed" in the SHIFT section.....and also in the LOAD section you mention "More you can do in the Load Process to keep shoulders closed"
I think your confusion is that you assume when a coach says keep your front shoulder closed, they are meaning for them to keep it closed even after the point of contact. Where if I am telling a kid to keep his "shoulder closed"... clearly not what I am telling him to do.

#3- Your SLOW MOTION DRILL, which I do the same thing but call it MUSCLE MEMORY... you start off by stating , "I like the Slow Motion Drill making sure at different phases demonstrating correct things."
I 100% agree with you.... but you said earlier you didn't like drills broken down into sequences ... I'm assuming like the 1,2,3 drill..... because a player loses the stretch or elasticity part of the swing.
Your not understanding that it's broken down into a sequential part to just teach the player how to show their body what its trying to do.... not breaking it down into segments because that's how you actually want to hit in a GAME. You don't want a player doing the SLOW MOTION DRILL in a game, do you? I mean obviously.

#4 - This one was rich. On this forum you have constantly reitterated the phrase, "teach what we see" from Mike Epstein.... making sure we don't just teach what we were taught years and years ago and reteach the same worthless info. YET... here's a quote...

"Self-Toss Drill I like basically because it's how I learned how to hit in a game called Indian Ball."

Come on Chris, do you not see the contradiction.

Too much time on a batting tee is bad for a hitter, can cause long disconnected swings, need more time with game pitching... is what you point out in your overpriced DVD. BUT, self-toss doesn't promote poor mechanics??? Please. Self-toss is a joke and especially being displayed on a $60 DVD.
Watch your students "Self-toss" swings on video some time.... bet they are not doing what you think they are. Or are they strengthening their wrists when you very well pointed out in your ROTATION speech that wrists and hands just make small minor adjustments????

[GetYourBestSwing]

You want the information to not be confusing.... well, I believe you failed with that Chris.

#1- When does a player use the "Set the L, Turn the L" drill?? Off of a tee? front toss?? your short toss or side toss??? Or is it a slow motion drill??
Go back and watch your demonstration of this as well, just pretty poor Chris, I wouldn't say this if it was a free video on Youtube.... but your charging way too much for the way you demonstrate things so confusingly.

#2- To do the Front Arm Swings, do you just do them as SLow Motion.... or do you hit off a tee? Front Toss?? Again, you never addressed this. How would a parent know?

#3- WALK UP DRILL..... Do you want them to finish their swing and hit the ball off the tee? Because chris, you did not once take a swing showing that drill finishing your swing. Everytime you stopped at the point of contact. Is that how you want them to do the drill or did you ASSUME they would just know they were supposed to hit the ball... which you didn't even have a baseball present to display any drills.

I've been using 2 variations of the WALK UP DRILL since 2003..... I'm assuming you were showing the one where they take their back side all the way through, finishing with their back knee in the air and foot off the ground??
I can show you the other one which is valuable in the video I make.

[GetYourBestSwing]

STAGES OF THE SWING


I'm assuming "SET UP" is just your stance, correct? I think you are too concerned what they do in the SET UP. If a player did start erect or tall as long as they got into a good POSTURE or TILTED when they get into hitting position.... or at TOE TOUCH..... what does it matter what their SET UP is like?
You even said talking about "STOP".... at 100:51 on the video, "sitting into foot plant- More upright here, then when you come into this you are essentially sitting down and then you power rotation there." "sit into foot plant as you pop hip."
-BUT you just got done saying in SET-UP all ready tilted and worried about my posture. So you want them to sit again?

You called the 3rd step in stages of the swing... SHIFT
-Call it SHIFT not STRIDE.... kids with power problems stride without a shift.... so therefore you reitterate SHIFTING and not STRIDING.

okay.... this is where it gets confusing if I'm a first time learner with your DVD.... but you wanted to make this so simple unlike any other hitting DVD.

in the 5th stage of the swing.... ROTATION... and I quote "Take all power generated during STRIDE and STOP PHASE and transfer it into shoulders and head of bat and maximize bat speed." at 1 hour, 2 minutes and 47 seconds.

wait a second.... what the heck is the STRIDE and STOP phase??? You just got done explaining right away you call it SHIFT... not STRIDE phase. You have it on the bottom of the screen as SHIFT.

Do you get at all how that is confusing?



FINISH part of the swing.... you talk and waist peoples time by telling them to make sure they arent cutting off their swings by practicing in cramped areas. Are you serious? I paid $60 for you to tell me to make sure that I'm not in such a small area or so close to the net of a batting cage that they can't FINISH the swing???? Wow. You state too many people do that and it teaches kids bad habits. HAHAHA Unreal this was mentioned on a $60 hitting DVD.
Just elementary BS like that I am ultimately upset about spending my money on your DVD.

[GetYourBestSwing]

I've typed way too much here.... hope you can disect it as you wish..

I will say I love the part at the end when you talk about mechanics being 50% and approach the other 50%.

that needs to be preached to kids. Kudos.

[callyjr]

Of course not, but I will always accept feedback to make my stuff better.


aren't the people that are going to buy your dvd's people that don't know anything? How are they going to give you feed back. Kinda sounds like the blind leading the blind to me.

[callyjr]

Interesting response Chris. What I found most interesting was the following .... "This 'connection' you describe with the back elbow (which is dead right) actually is a slot that the back elbow extends through to give your barrel more time in the zone."

Chris Yeager spoke of the importance of this last weekend.

Here's a couple of quick video clips on the topic.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/RyanHoward_PowV.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Manny21_PowV.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/BondsSide_PowV.gif

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Mannyswivel_PowV.gif

these guys look like they are doing the torque drill.

[Chris O'Leary]

aren't the people that are going to buy your dvd's people that don't know anything? How are they going to give you feed back. Kinda sounds like the blind leading the blind to me.

Nice shot.

Anyone can tell me what's not clear.

[Chris O'Leary]

these guys look like they are doing the torque drill.

Except for the position of their feet, among other things.

[Chris O'Leary]

I have been asked to make a hitting video which I was hesitant to do .... and I won't promote it or have a website to promote it like you do.... but after seeing yours, I am very certain that I will be doing it very soon. I'll send you a copy for free and we can share ideas. :)

I'd love to see it.

[Chris O'Leary]

#1- I disagree with your comment here. Where do you do all your teaching to hitters? I won't even get into this portion of it. You have to have a hitting facility, cage, gymnasium.... something near you if you do any teaching.

#2- Seems unnecessary, just use the cages where you do all your teaching at. Use a corner of a gymnasium if you don't have a cage. I just don't get it. lol

I rent stalls in larger facilities with multiple lanes.

It's not practical to rent out an entire facility and the background noise would be annoying if I just rented out one lane.

I'm looking at using the gym at my kids' school, but I'd have to film in the middle of the night.


#3- Your presentation is very poor. I think you do a nice job typing what you have to say, showing it is a whole different animal. I will point out many times where your demonstration is very confusing. Teach what we see right? I'll show you plenty of times where you just don't do this and make it very awkward and confusing.

I am working on getting clips of higher-level hitters to demonstrate different concepts. There are expensive licensing issues involved if you want to use clips of major leaguers. I am going to try to get some footage during Spring Training. That would be major leaguers but not in the MLB logoed apparel so there wouldn't be the licensing issues.

Would you be persuaded by a good HS, college, or major league swing or would you have to see a major leaguer to believe that's what the pros really do?

[GetYourBestSwing]

I rent stalls in larger facilities with multiple lanes.

It's not practical to rent out an entire facility and the background noise would be annoying if I just rented out one lane.

I'm looking at using the gym at my kids' school, but I'd have to film in the middle of the night.




I am working on getting clips of higher-level hitters to demonstrate different concepts. There are expensive licensing issues involved if you want to use clips of major leaguers. I am going to try to get some footage during Spring Training. That would be major leaguers but not in the MLB logoed apparel so there wouldn't be the licensing issues.

Would you be persuaded by a good HS, college, or major league swing or would you have to see a major leaguer to believe that's what the pros really do?


As long as your not demonstrating it, I think it would be fine. use a student of yours that is a high schooler and understands the concepts. You do a poor job showing it.
You can make do parts of the swing in slow motion, have him freeze, and point out what you need to be pointed out.

This is all part of just being a good teacher though..... Your not a good demonstrator, that's all.

I am just picturing a father helping his son after watching your DVD and it makes me chuckle. I don't think it would be effective at all.

[Chris O'Leary]

#1 At the end of showing WHAT A GOOD SWING LOOKS LIKE...You said, and I quote.... "Keep in mind it's not possible without swinging hard to demonstrate these concepts." "You'll see me squishing the bug, with too sharp of angle cuz I'm not swinging hard."
Isn't the point of a DVD to demonstrate concepts? You constantly demonstrated aspects of the swing very poorly.... which you so kindly addressed at the end of WHAT A GOOD SWING LOOKS LIKE. I'm very glad you did in fact, I give you credit for that,

As I said, I am going to use footage of some of my students to demonstrate this.


but your demonstrations on Connection and Seperation are very poor

What's wrong with them, exactly?


#2- One of your cues for LINEAR HITTING that you are opposed too is "KEEP YOUR FRONT SHOULDER CLOSED".... however, in your SEPERATION demonstration you vehemently state "try to keep the shoulder closed while hips open"
HUH???? You also state "keep your front shoulder closed" in the SHIFT section.....and also in the LOAD section you mention "More you can do in the Load Process to keep shoulders closed"
I think your confusion is that you assume when a coach says keep your front shoulder closed, they are meaning for them to keep it closed even after the point of contact. Where if I am telling a kid to keep his "shoulder closed"... clearly not what I am telling him to do.

I agree that one difference between rotational and linear guys that rotational guys want you to keep the front shoulder closed as long as possible (to create separation) while linear guys never want the front shoulder to open.


Your not understanding that it's broken down into a sequential part to just teach the player how to show their body what its trying to do.... not breaking it down into segments because that's how you actually want to hit in a GAME.

You do want there to be segments, but you don't want discrete pauses between the segments because that bleeds off energy.


You don't want a player doing the SLOW MOTION DRILL in a game, do you? I mean obviously.

Obviously not.


#4 - This one was rich. On this forum you have constantly reitterated the phrase, "teach what we see" from Mike Epstein.... making sure we don't just teach what we were taught years and years ago and reteach the same worthless info. YET... here's a quote...

"Self-Toss Drill I like basically because it's how I learned how to hit in a game called Indian Ball."

Come on Chris, do you not see the contradiction.

Too much time on a batting tee is bad for a hitter, can cause long disconnected swings, need more time with game pitching... is what you point out in your overpriced DVD. BUT, self-toss doesn't promote poor mechanics??? Please. Self-toss is a joke and especially being displayed on a $60 DVD.

You're missing the larger point that it's more important that, where possible, players work on their hitting than for the coach to work on their hitting.

[Chris O'Leary]

As long as your not demonstrating it, I think it would be fine. use a student of yours that is a high schooler and understands the concepts. You do a poor job showing it.
You can make do parts of the swing in slow motion, have him freeze, and point out what you need to be pointed out.

This is all part of just being a good teacher though..... Your not a good demonstrator, that's all.

I am just picturing a father helping his son after watching your DVD and it makes me chuckle. I don't think it would be effective at all.

Valid point.

However, I'm not going to have the student actually freeze during the demonstration because then they will end up doing inaccurate things.

It's better to just stop the clip at critical moment.

[Chris O'Leary]

#1- When does a player use the "Set the L, Turn the L" drill?? Off of a tee? front toss?? your short toss or side toss??? Or is it a slow motion drill??

Valid point.


#2- To do the Front Arm Swings, do you just do them as SLow Motion.... or do you hit off a tee? Front Toss?? Again, you never addressed this. How would a parent know?

Valid point.


#3- WALK UP DRILL..... Do you want them to finish their swing and hit the ball off the tee? Because chris, you did not once take a swing showing that drill finishing your swing. Everytime you stopped at the point of contact. Is that how you want them to do the drill or did you ASSUME they would just know they were supposed to hit the ball... which you didn't even have a baseball present to display any drills.

Valid point.


I've been using 2 variations of the WALK UP DRILL since 2003..... I'm assuming you were showing the one where they take their back side all the way through, finishing with their back knee in the air and foot off the ground??
I can show you the other one which is valuable in the video I make.

I'd love to see it.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Players don't care if you show your passion to make them better and make yourself available to them. they just flat out don't care.

Well said!

[Chris O'Leary]

I'm assuming "SET UP" is just your stance, correct? I think you are too concerned what they do in the SET UP. If a player did start erect or tall as long as they got into a good POSTURE or TILTED when they get into hitting position.... or at TOE TOUCH..... what does it matter what their SET UP is like?

Set up is less of an issue with higher-level hitters, but it's a major issue with youth hitters.


You even said talking about "STOP".... at 100:51 on the video, "sitting into foot plant- More upright here, then when you come into this you are essentially sitting down and then you power rotation there." "sit into foot plant as you pop hip."
-BUT you just got done saying in SET-UP all ready tilted and worried about my posture. So you want them to sit again?

It can help some people, especially if their posture isn't great at set-up. Also, you don't want to set up with good posture and then bounce up into a position of poor posture.


in the 5th stage of the swing.... ROTATION... and I quote "Take all power generated during STRIDE and STOP PHASE and transfer it into shoulders and head of bat and maximize bat speed." at 1 hour, 2 minutes and 47 seconds.

wait a second.... what the heck is the STRIDE and STOP phase??? You just got done explaining right away you call it SHIFT... not STRIDE phase. You have it on the bottom of the screen as SHIFT.

Do you get at all how that is confusing?

Valid point.


FINISH part of the swing.... you talk and waist peoples time by telling them to make sure they arent cutting off their swings by practicing in cramped areas. Are you serious? I paid $60 for you to tell me to make sure that I'm not in such a small area or so close to the net of a batting cage that they can't FINISH the swing???? Wow. You state too many people do that and it teaches kids bad habits. HAHAHA...Just elementary BS like that I am ultimately upset about spending my money on your DVD.

This may be elementary, and not an issue, at the higher levels but it certainly isn't elementary, and is an issue, at the lower levels. I have seen people take BP in very cramped quarters (e.g. garages) and have seen it affect their swings.

[GetYourBestSwing]

As I said, I am going to use footage of some of my students to demonstrate this.




What's wrong with them, exactly?




I agree that one difference between rotational and linear guys that rotational guys want you to keep the front shoulder closed as long as possible (to create separation) while linear guys never want the front shoulder to open.




You do want there to be segments, but you don't want discrete pauses between the segments because that bleeds off energy.




Obviously not.




You're missing the larger point that it's more important that, where possible, players work on their hitting than for the coach to work on their hitting.



Right, I missed the point you were making telling us a drill you like because it's how you learned how to hit. lol


What is wrong with the Connection and Seperation demonstration???

First of all, in the CONNECTION demo you should be using a bat to demonstrate, it can show what the barrel of the bat should be doing from the start of shoulder rotation to the POC.
Which brings up a point of how often you let the barrel get too far away from your shoulder whenever you show yourself rotating to POC.

During the CONNECTION demo.... everytime you show the elbow bent, your shoulders are completely level, show zero tilt, posture.... This would be a good time to incorporate the 2 things. Again, its shown very poorly by just telling us well connected = short and compact.... Don't TELL us.... SHOW US.

SEPERATION DEMO.... when your swaying your hips back and forth and showing hips rotate ahead of shoulders.... What are you doing?
During the SEPERATION.... you talk about walking the hands back, hips shifting forward, but look at your foot and your balance..... you are not in hitting position.... your feet are so close together it looks silly what you are displaying.
There are people trying to learn the swing from what you are saying.... I had a basketball assistant walk in during this time and these were his two quotes.... "Where the hell is that guy at??? "
AND.... "Whatever happened to being in an athletic position?? No way you could show it that way to a kid. "

That was an outside perspective.... I hadn't even uttered a word to him about the DVD, he just popped his head in like he does when watching film sometimes..... and gave his 2 cents.

I think you need to revisit the way you demonstrate what you are talking about. Take it for what its worth.

[Chris O'Leary]

First of all, in the CONNECTION demo you should be using a bat to demonstrate, it can show what the barrel of the bat should be doing from the start of shoulder rotation to the POC.

IMO, when talking about connection the position of the hands is more important than what the barrel of the bat is doing.


Which brings up a point of how often you let the barrel get too far away from your shoulder whenever you show yourself rotating to POC.

This is a valid, but very minor, point.


During the CONNECTION demo.... everytime you show the elbow bent, your shoulders are completely level, show zero tilt, posture.... This would be a good time to incorporate the 2 things. Again, its shown very poorly by just telling us well connected = short and compact.... Don't TELL us.... SHOW US.

Valid point, but I'm trying to focus on one concept at a time.


SEPERATION DEMO.... when your swaying your hips back and forth and showing hips rotate ahead of shoulders.... What are you doing?
During the SEPERATION.... you talk about walking the hands back, hips shifting forward, but look at your foot and your balance..... you are not in hitting position.... your feet are so close together it looks silly what you are displaying.
There are people trying to learn the swing from what you are saying.... I had a basketball assistant walk in during this time and these were his two quotes.... "Where the hell is that guy at??? "
AND.... "Whatever happened to being in an athletic position?? No way you could show it that way to a kid. "

That was an outside perspective.... I hadn't even uttered a word to him about the DVD, he just popped his head in like he does when watching film sometimes..... and gave his 2 cents.

Valid point.

[Chris O'Leary]

Right, I missed the point you were making telling us a drill you like because it's how you learned how to hit.

When I tried out for my D-3 college team, I was told that my hitting was good.

I wasn't fancy, but I was a good contact hitter.

The issue was that my arm went dead after the first day of throwing, and that was that.

[GetYourBestSwing]

When I tried out for my D-3 college team, I was told that my hitting was good.

I wasn't fancy, but I was a good contact hitter.

The issue was that my arm went dead after the first day of throwing, and that was that.


They were probably some silly college coaches that didn't teach what they saw however.... I mean, since that's what college coaches do, just give linear cues and teach linear hitting. lol

So maybe you didn't want them to think your hitting was good. lol

[Chris O'Leary]

They were probably some silly college coaches that didn't teach what they saw however.... I mean, since that's what college coaches do, just give linear cues and teach linear hitting. lol

So maybe you didn't want them to think your hitting was good. lol

They didn't try to teach me anything.

They just gave me a bat and told me to step in the box and take some swings.

That's the way most try-outs go.

[rkbenn]

I have some opinions I'd like to share about this DVD.

I will watch it again and take notes to make sure it doesn't seem like I am just flaming. I will have more time tonight.
Quite honestly there won't be much note taking. Especially the drills part, you shouldn't charge money for this DVD Chris... should be posted on Youtube if you want to get your information out there.

You can't charge this much for a DVD and present the video in the middle of the woods Chris. I'm sure it was your backyard, but are you serious? Find an indoor cage or do it in the summer near a cage, or on a baseball field.... something. Wow. The presentation of the DVD is very poor and dissapointing. Really is a portrayal of the DVD itself.

But, genius really, I paid the $60 for the DVD. I'm going to have to go give a couple lessons to get this money back. lol

I thought the Drills section would be interesting.... yikes.

Like I said, I'll come back with more educated thoughts, but just got done watching the DVD in the office. See you boys tonight.

What a jerk you are. Be critical, but blasting him on this site is make you look like an idiot. O'Leary takes his fair share of lumps on here. He had done a lot of work in video analysis and he has helped a number of us. I don't feel he is right all the time. You could have offered suggestion to him in an email, etc. But no...you have to give him the business in public....classless.

[BoardMember]

I will just explain my background briefly as well, which I have before.............I have coached at the college level since 2004..........as a hitting instructor.........We have finished in the top 10 in the nation in hitting 3 of the 5 years I've been here hitting .356, .358 and last year when we didn't finish in the top 10, shoot, we hit a measley .326.... but scored 40 more runs than the previous season...

FYI, 3 months ago you said you'd been coaching at the college level for 6 years. Now it's 4 years. Seems you've had a memory lapse...........

Coached at the college level for 6 years now and manage a summer team in the Northwoods League

I'm not sure about others reading this thread, but something smells a little fishy to me.

Why in the world would ANYONE with your supposed knowledge of hitting, and your credentials listed above, be buying Chris O's VERY BASIC rotational hitting 101 DVD.......

Somthin just don't add up..........Sorta like the college coaching career addition problem..........

Care to explain why someone with THAT MUCH HITTING KNOWLEDGE and SUCCESS would buy such a rudementary DVD?........:shrug:

[GetYourBestSwing]

I'll just message you my name, I'm not hiding anything.

Sorry for any confusion....

I am not real sure why there was a miscommunication there, sorry.

[BoardMember]

....Why in the world would ANYONE with your supposed knowledge of hitting, and your credentials listed above, be buying Chris O's VERY BASIC rotational hitting 101 DVD.......

Care to explain why someone with THAT MUCH HITTING KNOWLEDGE and SUCCESS would buy such a rudementary DVD?........:shrug:

I don't really care about the memory lapse..........

How about addressing the rest of my question.........:nod:

[GetYourBestSwing]

FYI, 3 months ago you said you'd been coaching at the college level for 6 years. Now it's 4 years. Seems you've had a memory lapse...........



I'm not sure about others reading this thread, but something smells a little fishy to me.

Why in the world would ANYONE with your supposed knowledge of hitting, and your credentials listed above, be buying Chris O's VERY BASIC rotational hitting 101 DVD.......

Somthin just don't add up..........Sorta like the college coaching career addition problem..........

Care to explain why someone with THAT MUCH HITTING KNOWLEDGE and SUCCESS would buy such a rudementary DVD?........:shrug:


I apologize also if describing my background made it sound like I think i'm really knowledgable. Probably came off wrong. I don't think that, I come here to read posts like yours BM and analyze your videos and analysis you put on here.... it's good stuff.

I bought the DVD for the DRILLS..... thought there would be some new material to learn and pass onto kids I teach.... really that simple.

Why would it even matter if i was the best hitting instructor in the world and I wanted to buy a hitting DVD?? What does who you are or where you've been have anything to do with trying to get better as a teacher and teach the game???

[BoardMember]

I apologize also if describing my background made it sound like I think i'm really knowledgable. Probably came off wrong.

If it's worth anything BM I enjoy your posts maybe more than anyone on the site, you really know what you are talking about.... and I wish I had the computer knowledge you do with your demonstrations.... impressive.


I buy all kinds of DVD's, I think O'leary's site is well put together so wanted to see the drills..... so bought the DVD. Really that simple.

I have put a lot of time into making teaching hitting and the game of baseball my life.... it's the top priority in my life, for good or bad. lol

I'll stay out of the topics if you think I'm too rude..... I will just send messages in private, sorry for any wrongdoing fellas!

Look, I don't have have a problem with participation from anyone.......

The more "participation" of ideas her the better, including yours. But keep in mind, participation doesn't include a lot of what went on here IMO.

The problem is you've come across here like you were "RIPPED OFF" by a scam artist. O'leary seriously believes in what he's doing.......I commend him for having the "sack" to put together a video after 2 years of study, good or not so good........

You shouldn't "stay out of the topics". You should "ADD" to the topics. Even if people don't agree. You're idea's may "hit home" with someone.....That is ALWAYS a good thing, and happens more often then you think.........

Someone with your background on the field can probably add some great stuff to the journey here..........

Step back and think about if you did that here, in this thread...........That's all.......

And IF you really want to help Chris, send him an email with your thoughts......;)

[GetYourBestSwing]

Sounds good.

[BoardMember]

Sounds good.

........:thumbsup:

[mudvnine]

Look, I don't have have a problem with participation from anyone.......

The more "participation" of ideas her the better, including yours. But keep in mind, participation doesn't include a lot of what went on here IMO.

The problem is you've come across here like you were "RIPPED OFF" by a scam artist. O'leary seriously believes in what he's doing.......I commend him for having the "sack" to put together a video after 2 years of study, good or not so good........

You shouldn't "stay out of the topics". You should "ADD" to the topics. Even if people don't agree. You're idea's may "hit home" with someone.....That is ALWAYS a good thing, and happens more often then you think.........

Someone with your background on the field can probably add some great stuff to the journey here..........

Step back and think about if you did that here, in this thread...........That's all.......

And IF you really want to help Chris, send him an email with your thoughts......;)

BM, like it or not, as soon as Chris started charging the public for his material, he opened himself up for public reviews and scrutiny. By charging $60.00 for his DVD, he more or less feels that his material is of the same value (if not more so at that price) as Epstein, Yeager, Hudgens, Jaramillo, Englishbey, and the many others that have been battered here by one poster or another over the years. . . Several of them by none other then Chris.

If GetYourBestSwing spent the money, viewed the material, and didn't feel the information was valid or worth the money, he has every right to come here and say so and have open dialog that will let others make an educated decision on whether to purchase the DVD or not. Why does Chris get a pass here and should be emailed when none of the others mentioned above are offered the same courtesy? Should it be any more about helping Chris as those that come here looking for help and the cost value of the information disseminated?

As soon as Chris became a "professional" by charging for his work, he opened himself to the same bitter reviews and treatment afforded the others, especially when he's been so good at it himself. It's one thing sharing information freely, it's becomes a whole other, as soon as you start charging for it. :(

[Dirtberry]

Chris O'Leary,


“I haven't view ANY proprietary information of ANY guru “

This is an oxy moron, there is no such animal, and nothing that is taught today is new!! I wish all the posters would explain their drills in detail instead of hiding behind these false proprietary notions that do not exist.
Only reworded slightly to look like provenance.

Upstein didn’t invent the fence drill, sorry in advance, this is what the scouts call him out here in SoCal.
House did not invent the towel drill. I can go on and on.

“trying to do by asking questions.”

Well, then put it in the form of a question instead of the usual attack!

[Chris O'Leary]

FYI, I do think the comments about my demonstration skills are valid (this isn't the only time I've heard this criticism). I'm going to be in the Caribbean in a week and a half, and I'm going to take a day trip to PR to get some video of my friend. That way I can help him as he gets ready for ST and help myself as I prepare the next version of my DVD.

I also know a high-level fast pitch coach and am going to offer to trade analyses of her hitters for the right to use them in the next version of my DVD.

Also, I know a former MLer who has access to the Busch Stadium bullpens, and I'm going to see if I can film the next version of my DVD there.

[BigGeorge]

IMO, the problem with many of the drills out there is that they do not take into account phenomenonae like bat drag. As a result, too many people spend too much time perfecting swings that will work at a drill station, off of a tee, or even at the batting cages but that do not work in a game setting.

My point of view on this has been shaped by the many people who have approached me over the years who have kids who hit great in practice but who don't hit nearly that well in game situations.


I don’t buy into the first statement at all. A drill, by its very nature, is a sub-set of the more complex full-swing. It should be (and is!) far easier to perform said drill without introducing imperfections simply because they are fewer moving parts. Your statement is counter-intuitive. And because there are fewer moving parts, it is easier to identify where a hitter is going wrong. Certainly there are good drills and bad drills. It is the responsibility of the coach or instructor or guru to deploy drills that conceptualize key components of his or her particular swing theory and build them into muscle-memory so when a full-swing is executed there is one less component to go wrong.

Taking the game from the practice fields to game-day is a universal dilemma that encompasses not just baseball but all sports. It is generally accepted that the main obstacle is mental not physical. This points to the inevitable flaw that many hitting coaches fail to properly address: hitting strategy and tactics trump the physical act of putting a bat-head on the moving baseball. Visual mechanics, strike zone awareness, pitch recognition, count strategy, etc will impact the success of a hitter to a greater extent for most players. I think there is prima facie evidence for this in that hitters are succeeding despite the many flawed hitting theories out there (whatever school you happen to think is flawed).

Which brings me to a question. Since you acknowledge that drills are not a great part of your Rotational Hitting 101 DVD, do you approach the subject of strategy and tactics?

[Bucketdad]

these guys look like they are doing the torque drill.

No they don't.

[tominct]

Having been reading this board for a few years now, I can say that I have learned much. I have made it a point to approach everything with an open mind after the initial face slapping I received from Jim Booth and others. However, I have also learned from Chris, but more about the mechanics of pitching rather than the swing.

That being said, I WANT DRILLS! I have read enough about the ML Swing, I KNOW WHAT HAPPENS, what I need, and I think everyone needs, is WAYS TO ESTABLISH THE PROPER MUSCLE MEMORY in our students (in my case, my sons most notably)...DRILLS.

I can tell them all I want about what has to happen in the swing, I can show them on video what they are doing in their swings, but I need good ways to get them from where they are now, to where they need to go....and I need DRILLS for that. I can't just throw to them live and think they are going to miraculoulsy make adjustments to their swings on the fly!

Also, for what it is worth, there is little need for anyone who coaches at the Division I level to feel the need to belittle another person in the way that has been going on here. And by the way, I know some college D I and DII assistants, and they don't all impress me much...chaulk up another

[Mark H]

I don’t buy into the first statement at all. A drill, by its very nature, is a sub-set of the more complex full-swing. It should be (and is!) far easier to perform said drill without introducing imperfections?

Only to the extent the hitter and the coach understand the swing and the goal of the drill. Most good drills can be perverted and a hitter who knows what they are doing can usually figure a way to turn a bad drill based on poor understanding into something useful when he's forced to do it in team practice or some such. So, IMO, it's really about understanding the swing first.



Taking the game from the practice fields to game-day is a universal dilemma that encompasses not just baseball but all sports. It is generally accepted that the main obstacle is mental not physical. ?

Well if by mental you mean ingrained habits taking over under the higher stress levels of a game situation, then yeah, I agree. Knowing something on the tee with low stress levels is not the same as knowing it in soft toss is not the same as knowing it in bp is not the same as knowing it in a game. It's a progression. One of the things they teach you in pilot training is in an emergency situation, you are going to revert to your primary training. This is why it's so important for a hitter to have an efficient swing early in life. The swing he has as he turns 12 or 13 is likely the swing he is going to tend to revert to in time and under stress.

Which brings me to a question. Since you acknowledge that drills are not a great part of your Rotational Hitting 101 DVD, do you approach the subject of strategy and tactics?

I'd say Epstein does a pretty good job on strategy and tactics. I'd also say the world of baseball in general does a better job on strategy and tactics than it does on mechanics. I'd also say the market for that is much less than the market for addressing mechanics in spite of the importance of strategy and tactics.

[Jake Patterson]

Gybs,
I admire what Chris is trying to do and I also acknowledge his pursuit for truth. He, more than most here, has worked hard at understanding the swing. More important he sees the void that exists with new coaches trying to learn, understand and then teach the swing. There is a large gap between what exists and what is needed. Most new coaches are overwhelmed and understandably so. Chris has attempted to bridge that gap and I feel he has made a step in the right direction. If the $60.00 is a problem, send me a PM and I will send you the $60.00 in exchange for the disc. I do believe there are those out there, who are willing to learn and could benefit greatly by the disc.
Jake

[BigGeorge]

Originally Posted by MarkH:


Only to the extent the hitter and the coach understand the swing and the goal of the drill

Of course, but understanding the goal of a drill with a few simple parts is far easier to grasp than the understanding of the swing in its entirety. And of course, drills are (in part) how you build that understanding of the swing, right?


One of the things they teach you in pilot training is in an emergency situation, you are going to revert to your primary training.



“Ingrained habits” aka muscle-memory is part and parcel of the reason why drills are done. Repetitive Drills. Create new muscle-memory. There is a difference between a baseball coach going through team practice drills and a hitting instructor working a few drills to death to overcome these “ingrained habits”. Team drills are rarely done to the that level.

I'd also say the world of baseball in general does a better job on strategy and tactics than it does on mechanics.



I would agree to a point. In print there has been some decent work done on strategy (beginning with TW’s Science of Hitting) but I don’t think that it is getting to the hitters at large.

The mental approach to sports is changing rapidly and most coaches are still stuck in the stone age. Something as valuable as visual mechanics or visual acuity or whatever you want to call it is something few hitters are exposed to. That is a huge shortcoming because seeing and tracking a baseball to me is the #1 thing. If you can’t see it you aren’t going to hit it.

[kylebee]

Only to the extent the hitter and the coach understand the swing and the goal of the drill. Most good drills can be perverted and a hitter who knows what they are doing can usually figure a way to turn a bad drill based on poor understanding into something useful when he's forced to do it in team practice or some such. So, IMO, it's really about understanding the swing first.

Mark,

I'm a fan of a few drills (the high tee drill, the walk up drill, the "out front" drill, the slot drill - which I think is a perversion of Epstein's torque drill) but I never thought of using them only after the hitter understands what to look for in a video-based analysis of his swing.

Interesting point and one that I think that bears repeating.

[Mark H]

Originally Posted by MarkH:




Of course, but understanding the goal of a drill with a few simple parts is far easier to grasp than the understanding of the swing in its entirety. And of course, drills are (in part) how you build that understanding of the swing, right?

.

I agree with Kylebee. First you understand the goal/destination. Then the drill will make sense to the student. The drill is for burning in the muscle memory IMO. Intent will make a big difference in that learning process and a poor understanding of the swing and the goal of the drill will affect the hitter's intent. I should add I like Englishbey's work using constraints as opposed to just drills.

[BoardMember]

BM, like it or not, as soon as Chris started charging the public for his material, he opened himself up for public reviews and scrutiny. By charging $60.00 for his DVD, he more or less feels that his material is of the same value (if not more so at that price) as Epstein, Yeager, Hudgens, Jaramillo, Englishbey, and the many others that have been battered here by one poster or another over the years. . . Several of them by none other then Chris.

If GetYourBestSwing spent the money, viewed the material, and didn't feel the information was valid or worth the money, he has every right to come here and say so and have open dialog that will let others make an educated decision on whether to purchase the DVD or not. Why does Chris get a pass here and should be emailed when none of the others mentioned above are offered the same courtesy? Should it be any more about helping Chris as those that come here looking for help and the cost value of the information disseminated?

As soon as Chris became a "professional" by charging for his work, he opened himself to the same bitter reviews and treatment afforded the others, especially when he's been so good at it himself. It's one thing sharing information freely, it's becomes a whole other, as soon as you start charging for it. :(

Well OK then, you and I have a slightly different prospective on life. I'll give you mine..........

There are 2 little girls down the street, ages 9 and 10. Last summer they decided to set up a lemon-aid stand on my street. They went to the store, and bought some crystal lite lemon-aid crystals, and also some fresh lemons and sugar.

Gathering from their limited knowlege of making lemon-aid from various sources, including mom, they put together a drink that included the pre-packaged product, and added some fresh lemons and sugar.

They gathered some material at their disposal, like cardboard boxes and folding chairs and set up the stand. They were offering a glass at .25 cents to try and recover some of the costs.

I stopped by and purchased glass. It certainly wasn't what I expected, although it had some good qualities as well.

From your prospective, they were "professionals". You know after all, they are "charging the public for the product". And because they were selling the product, they MUST BE thinking that they know as much as the Jamba Juice franchise, who is backed by years of professional experience in the field, and now are open to the ugly critisism of the public about their product.

From my prospective, they worked hard to TRY to produce a different product. They admittedly clearly DIDN'T have the experience of Jamba Juice in the field, and they were fairly underfunded, and didn't have the resources to build a "real store".

But you know what? They did it. They set up a stand, and sold lemon-aid. It wasn't great by any means, BUT they weren't trying to be Jamba Juice.

They were just realizing the dream of putting together a project they thought up...........I congratulated them for doing it........

So I guess what you have to decide, is, IS Chris trying to be like the big boys? Or is he just putting together a project and trying to recover some of his costs............

It's a matter of prospective IMO............;)

[callyjr]

No they don't.


actually they do, espcially Bonds

[Mark H]

Some things the same some things not considering posture and momentum. Someday we'll have to get together.

[callyjr]

What a jerk you are. Be critical, but blasting him on this site is make you look like an idiot. O'Leary takes his fair share of lumps on here. He had done a lot of work in video analysis and he has helped a number of us. I don't feel he is right all the time. You could have offered suggestion to him in an email, etc. But no...you have to give him the business in public....classless.

what comes around goes around right? I have been suggesting the same thing to him for over a year now.

[FiveFrameSwing]

That being said, I WANT DRILLS! I have read enough about the ML Swing, I KNOW WHAT HAPPENS, what I need, and I think everyone needs, is WAYS TO ESTABLISH THE PROPER MUSCLE MEMORY in our students (in my case, my sons most notably)...DRILLS.


I keep hearing this 'desire' for DRILLS from posters here.

Consider that Epstein has 3-4 basic drills.

After adopting Chris Yeager's drills for the last year I better appreciate that there isn't a need for a large number of drills. In fact, with CY's handfull of drills I see absolutely no need to introduce extra drills. I'm able to cover every aspect of the swing with his drills.

I believe knowledge of why a drill is being performed is essential ... for both the coach/instructor and for the student. IMO, a student will acquire advanced skills at a faster rate, if they are repeatedly reminded why they are performing the drills. I can't stress this enough ... students need to know why they are preforming a drill if they are going to advance at the fastest rate possible. If students become overly "comfortable" with a drill, then as an instructor it is your job to make sure they continue to understand why they are doing their drills.

I believe the reason that coaches keep asking for more drills is because they don't understand the fundamental and critical aspects of the swing, or how to address problem areas using basic drills.

I can't stess enough the importance of first understanding the MLB swing pattern ... and from my perspective CY's first DVD is the best in terms of providing a decent education on this.

My basic message is that with knowledge, folks will likely find that they need fewer drills, not more.

From that perspective ... education is first and foremost.

If you don't know why you are doing a drill ... then stop. If your students don't know why they are doing a drill ... then get in their face and make sure they know why they are performing the drill.

Again ... education first!

[callyjr]

Well OK then, you and I have a slightly different prospective on life. I'll give you mine..........

There are 2 little girls down the street, ages 9 and 10. Last summer they decided to set up a lemon-aid stand on my street. They went to the store, and bought some crystal lite lemon-aid crystals, and also some fresh lemons and sugar.

Gathering from their limited knowlege of making lemon-aid from various sources, including mom, they put together a drink that included the pre-packaged product, and added some fresh lemons and sugar.

They gathered some material at their disposal, like cardboard boxes and folding chairs and set up the stand. They were offering a glass at .25 cents to try and recover some of the costs.

I stopped by and purchased glass. It certainly wasn't what I expected, although it had some good qualities as well.

From your prospective, they were "professionals". You know after all, they are "charging the public for the product". And because they were selling the product, they MUST BE thinking that they know as much as the Jamba Juice franchise, who is backed by years of professional experience in the field, and now are open to the ugly critisism of the public about their product.

From my prospective, they worked hard to TRY to produce a different product. They admittedly clearly DIDN'T have the experience of Jamba Juice in the field, and they were fairly underfunded, and didn't have the resources to build a "real store".

But you know what? They did it. They set up a stand, and sold lemon-aid. It wasn't great by any means, BUT they weren't trying to be Jamba Juice.

They were just realizing the dream of putting together a project they thought up...........I congratulated them for doing it........

So I guess what you have to decide, is, IS Chris trying to be like the big boys? Or is he just putting together a project and trying to recover some of his costs............

It's a matter of prospective IMO............;)

Are the girls calling the local stores trying to sell it to the wholesale division? Are they saying that they sent samples off to costco and walmart and that they really liked it and want to use it in the stores. Come on BM, your analogy was nice was not a very good one. I think his desire is to be like the big boys.

[Mark H]

I believe knowledge of why a drill is being performed is essential ... for both the coach/instructor and for the student. IMO, a student will acquire advanced skills if they are repeatedly reminded why they are performing the drills.


Agreed.

.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Only to the extent the hitter and the coach understand the swing and the goal of the drill. Most good drills can be perverted and a hitter who knows what they are doing can usually figure a way to turn a bad drill based on poor understanding into something useful when he's forced to do it in team practice or some such. So, IMO, it's really about understanding the swing first.

I have to agree with MarkH.

Well said Mark!

[FiveFrameSwing]

Well if by mental you mean ingrained habits taking over under the higher stress levels of a game situation, then yeah, I agree. Knowing something on the tee with low stress levels is not the same as knowing it in soft toss is not the same as knowing it in bp is not the same as knowing it in a game. It's a progression. One of the things they teach you in pilot training is in an emergency situation, you are going to revert to your primary training. This is why it's so important for a hitter to have an efficient swing early in life. The swing he has as he turns 12 or 13 is likely the swing he is going to tend to revert to in time and under stress.


Mark .... another good message.

Last weekend Chris Yeager told an audience that he teaches the same mechanics to 8 year olds that he teaches to professional MLB hitters.

[mudvnine]

Well OK then, you and I have a slightly different prospective on life. I'll give you mine..........

There are 2 little girls down the street, ages 9 and 10. Last summer they decided to set up a lemon-aid stand on my street. They went to the store, and bought some crystal lite lemon-aid crystals, and also some fresh lemons and sugar.

Gathering from their limited knowlege of making lemon-aid from various sources, including mom, they put together a drink that included the pre-packaged product, and added some fresh lemons and sugar.

They gathered some material at their disposal, like cardboard boxes and folding chairs and set up the stand. They were offering a glass at .25 cents to try and recover some of the costs.

I stopped by and purchased glass. It certainly wasn't what I expected, although it had some good qualities as well.

From your prospective, they were "professionals". You know after all, they are "charging the public for the product". And because they were selling the product, they MUST BE thinking that they know as much as the Jamba Juice franchise, who is backed by years of professional experience in the field, and now are open to the ugly critisism of the public about their product.

From my prospective, they worked hard to TRY to produce a different product. They admittedly clearly DIDN'T have the experience of Jamba Juice in the field, and they were fairly underfunded, and didn't have the resources to build a "real store".

But you know what? They did it. They set up a stand, and sold lemon-aid. It wasn't great by any means, BUT they weren't trying to be Jamba Juice.

They were just realizing the dream of putting together a project they thought up...........I congratulated them for doing it........

So I guess what you have to decide, is, IS Chris trying to be like the big boys? Or is he just putting together a project and trying to recover some of his costs............

It's a matter of prospective IMO............;)

Nice try there BM . . . I think you're trying to compare apples to oranges (or maybe lemons), but I'll play along . . .

First, I don't think that in your scenario that you stated that the girls had previously said the Jamba Juice was offering an inferior product and that how they made their juices was just wrong, as had been done in here in the past by Chris.

The girls in your scenario are only charging about 5% of what "Jamba Juice franchise, who is backed by years of professional experience in the field" is charging for their product. In this case the new DVD is in some cases more then double what is charged by a person who "admittedly clearly DIDN'T have the experience of "those" in the field.

If the girls were selling their lemon-aid online for let's say $8.95 a glass and you had purchased it and knew "It certainly wasn't what I expected, although it had some good qualities as well", wouldn't you be inclined to say something to those who might be on a "Lemon-Aid Fever Forum" looking for the "next, best Lemon-Aid" and give YOUR opinion of the lemon-aid whether you thought it might hurt the girls feelings or not?

"So I guess what you have to decide, is, ARE THE GIRLS trying to be like the big boys? Or are they just putting together a project and trying to recover some of their costs............" regardless of the costs and quality of their product.

[BigGeorge]

I agree with Kylebee. First you understand the goal/destination. Then the drill will make sense to the student. The drill is for burning in the muscle memory IMO. Intent will make a big difference in that learning process and a poor understanding of the swing and the goal of the drill will affect the hitter's intent. I should add I like Englishbey's work using constraints as opposed to just drills.


I suppose it depends on what is meant by “understanding”. To me, hitting is a “feel” game. I believe there is a fundamental difference from the theoretical concept how the rotation of the hips power the swing to the actual “feeling” of the transfer of power that the hips can generate. Only when the hitter experiences this first hand is “true” understanding accomplished. My use of drills is to segment the key portions of swing and to build a complete whole in the hitters mind. Certainly an overall purpose, intent or goal valuable but I don’t think a high-level theoretical understanding is required before picking up a bat. I don’t think that is how humans learn. Imagine if babies took that strategy when learning to walk.

[FiveFrameSwing]

BM ….. IMO your posts in this thread have been somewhat insulting to Chris.

Allow me to explain.

In your first post you asked why someone with potentially considerable experience would bother purchasing Chris’s DVD. The implication was that the DVD includes only basic information and wouldn't be of value to someone at a high level.

That message may be on target … but with the lemonade stand story you paint a picture of a low quality product. You drive the point home by comparing those girls to “Jamba Juice” (i.e., a quality outfit) and then associating Chris with the girls setting up the stand.

The thing is … I know you are clever … … … and capable of thinking things through several steps in advance … …. so I find myself scratching my head with these recent posts.

[TG Coach]

In the 5 years I have coached college baseball - I can count on one hand the number of players that asked me where I played in college or asked me anything about my playing days.

Players don't care if you show your passion to make them better and make yourself available to them. they just flat out don't care.

Players will assume a coach has the background until they expose themselves and prove they don't. They probably checked your background before selecting the college, anyway. I don't know any decent coaches from the elite select travel level through college who didn't at least star at the high school level.

[Catchingcoach]

Players will assume a coach has the background until they expose themselves and prove they don't. They probably checked your background before selecting the college, anyway. I don't know any decent coaches from the elite select travel level through college who didn't at least star at the high school level.

TG,

So are you really saying that you feel someone cannot be a decent coach in baseball from the elite select level through college unless they have been at least a star at the high school level????

[Mark H]

I suppose it depends on what is meant by “understanding”. To me, hitting is a “feel” game. I believe there is a fundamental difference from the theoretical concept how the rotation of the hips power the swing to the actual “feeling” of the transfer of power that the hips can generate. Only when the hitter experiences this first hand is “true” understanding accomplished. My use of drills is to segment the key portions of swing and to build a complete whole in the hitters mind. Certainly an overall purpose, intent or goal valuable but I don’t think a high-level theoretical understanding is required before picking up a bat. I don’t think that is how humans learn. Imagine if babies took that strategy when learning to walk.

I agree it's all about helping a player understand what efficient "feels" like to them. As such, all learning is trial and error and the only function of instruction is to shorten that process. Certainly drills can help a player feel something and understand what you are talking about so I don't entirely disagree with your previous point but in the main I think a player better understand the intent of the drill and how it fits into what he's trying to learn/change.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Good points Mark.

IMO “feel” alone is not sufficient … even if ‘time’ was not a factor.

The reason I say this is that there can be several sub-optimum points that a hitter can fall into. Continual review and comparison to the best hitters remains helpful.

The Hanson Principle is a valuable tool to be used throughout a player's carreer.

[Jake Patterson]

Mark .... another good message.

Last weekend Chris Yeager told an audience that he teaches the same mechanics to 8 year olds that he teaches to professional MLB hitters. An herein lies the problem with many professional instructors. Do we teach Calculus to 4th graders? Hey it's all math...

[Jake Patterson]

TG,

So are you really saying that you feel someone cannot be a decent coach in baseball from the elite select level through college unless they have been at least a star at the high school level????Boy I hope not. If so, I have a lot of phone calls to make.

[BigGeorge]

An herein lies the problem with many professional instructors. Do we teach Calculus to 4th graders? Hey it's all math...

I don’t think that is an accurate analogy at all. I think teaching English is more appropriate. What you teach a 4th grader is still the same language with all the same rules only without the higher vocabulary and grammatical structure and more involved intellect. But very much something a 4th grader can evolve to.

The wrong approach is to teach something that will need to be discarded in whole or in part a few years down the line.

"Swing for Life" is a term I am fond of.

[wrstdude]

An herein lies the problem with many professional instructors. Do we teach Calculus to 4th graders? Hey it's all math...

Bad analogy. Do we teach 1+3=5 to 4th graders and when they get to Calculus tell them that 1+3=4?

[BigGeorge]

Good points Mark.

IMO “feel” alone is not sufficient … even if ‘time’ was not a factor.

The reason I say this is that there can be several sub-optimum points that a hitter can fall into. Continual review and comparison to the best hitters remains helpful.

The Hanson Principle is a valuable tool to be used throughout a player's carreer.

Certainly nothing "alone" will cut it because of the complexity of the act of driving a baseball from someone who doesn't want you to. A comprehensive approach is the superior way to go. Unfortunately, most seemingly get bogged down by a mechanic-centric approach. This leaves many legitimate pathways unexplored.

[Chris O'Leary]

I don’t buy into the first statement at all. A drill, by its very nature, is a sub-set of the more complex full-swing. It should be (and is!) far easier to perform said drill without introducing imperfections simply because they are fewer moving parts. Your statement is counter-intuitive. And because there are fewer moving parts, it is easier to identify where a hitter is going wrong. Certainly there are good drills and bad drills. It is the responsibility of the coach or instructor or guru to deploy drills that conceptualize key components of his or her particular swing theory and build them into muscle-memory so when a full-swing is executed there is one less component to go wrong.

I hear you.

I just got off the phone with my friend from PR and he says he looked at some video and he says he's not getting any weight transfer, which at least is hurting his power.

Part of the problem is that he is following the cue to stay back, which I think is hurting him.

I actually am in the process of trying to figure out what drill to use help him with this. I'm thinking a lower body isolation drill that has him start out with his weight forward and then shift his weight back as he loads and then go back forward again. However, I don't know if this kind of a drill is a good fit for a basic DVD or if it's better for a more advanced DVD that addresses how to deal with certain problems.


Which brings me to a question. Since you acknowledge that drills are not a great part of your Rotational Hitting 101 DVD, do you approach the subject of strategy and tactics?

Yes, but at a high level (as is the theme of the disk).

The core message is that your approach should focus on waiting for pitches that enable you to use your best swing.

[Chris O'Leary]

I think everyone needs, is WAYS TO ESTABLISH THE PROPER MUSCLE MEMORY in our students (in my case, my sons most notably)...DRILLS.

This is a very common assumption that I'm not sure is valid.

[Chris O'Leary]

I would agree to a point. In print there has been some decent work done on strategy (beginning with TW’s Science of Hitting) but I don’t think that it is getting to the hitters at large.

The mental approach to sports is changing rapidly and most coaches are still stuck in the stone age. Something as valuable as visual mechanics or visual acuity or whatever you want to call it is something few hitters are exposed to. That is a huge shortcoming because seeing and tracking a baseball to me is the #1 thing. If you can’t see it you aren’t going to hit it.

I really like Ted Williams' stuff (and approach) in this respect.

I would argue that one reason why Ted Williams' swing is so consistent is that he knew what he could hit well and what he couldn't, and more often than most he only went after that pitch.

[Chris O'Leary]

I believe the reason that coaches keep asking for more drills is because they don't understand the fundamental and critical aspects of the swing, or how to address problem areas using basic drills.

I also think that, given that most coaches are men, there is an aspect of "The Magic _____" thinking when it comes to drills.

That people think that if they can just find the magic _____, then everything will fall into place.

From sport to sport, _____ can be a...

- Putter
- Driver
- Bat
- Lure

One thing fishing has taught me is that my best bet is to stick with a single lure (Wave Worm Tiki Sticks in bubblegum or green pumpkin for my spinning rigs and yellow/yellow bass poppers on my fly rod) and really learn to work it rathr than buying yet another lure that I have to learn how to fish.

I think that in some cases people accumulate drills in the same way, and for the same reason, that people accumulate lures, putters, and drivers.

P.S. Anyone want to buy any of the 200 or so magic lures I have accumulated over the years? To date, my solution has been to just give them to my boys.

[FiveFrameSwing]

An herein lies the problem with many professional instructors. Do we teach Calculus to 4th graders? Hey it's all math...

And herein lies the problem with making the swing appear more complicated than it need be.

[Jake Patterson]

I don’t think that is an accurate analogy at all. I think teaching English is more appropriate. What you teach a 4th grader is still the same language with all the same rules only without the higher vocabulary and grammatical structure and more involved intellect. But very much something a 4th grader can evolve to.

The wrong approach is to teach something that will need to be discarded in whole or in part a few years down the line.

"Swing for Life" is a term I am fond of.
English would be a great example... Do we teach 4th grade how to conjugate verbs??

[Jake Patterson]

And herein lies the problem with making the swing appear more complicated than it need be.Are you suggesting you teach 4th graders and use the same teaching methods for adults? Most who suggest this haven't taught both ends of the spectrum.

[BigGeorge]

English would be a great example... Do we teach 4th grade how to conjugate verbs??

I am not sure when (or even if) I learned to conjugate verbs. It is one of the first things I learned when taking a foreign language however.

The point is that Yeager isn't advocating advanced concepts for 4th graders. What he is advocating is an introduction of the very same basic concepts (load, push, separation etc.) that the big boys get (in a more suitable format).

Again, worse would be a substitute model that needs to be tossed to the curb a few years later.

[Mark H]

I don’t think that is an accurate analogy at all. I think teaching English is more appropriate. What you teach a 4th grader is still the same language with all the same rules only without the higher vocabulary and grammatical structure and more involved intellect. But very much something a 4th grader can evolve to.

The wrong approach is to teach something that will need to be discarded in whole or in part a few years down the line.
.

I bet we can all agree with that analogy. The last sentence gets a big cheer from me.

[Jake Patterson]

I think we are on the same page...

[Chris O'Leary]

First, I don't think that in your scenario that you stated that the girls had previously said the Jamba Juice was offering an inferior product and that how they made their juices was just wrong, as had been done in here in the past by Chris.

I never said that, but I have said that JJ is selling oranges but delivering apples.

I didn't realize it was a crime to point out that an orange is not an apple, or that some of the apples are bruised.


The girls in your scenario are only charging about 5% of what "Jamba Juice franchise, who is backed by years of professional experience in the field" is charging for their product. In this case the new DVD is in some cases more then double what is charged by a person who "admittedly clearly DIDN'T have the experience of "those" in the field.

And only 60% of the price of other good DVDs.

[Chris O'Leary]

In your first post you asked why someone with potentially considerable experience would bother purchasing Chris’s DVD.

This isn't my target market.

I thought the title would make that clear, but I guess I need to be clearer.

Also, my perspective on drills is quite different than the rest of the industry.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Are you suggesting you teach 4th graders and use the same teaching methods for adults? Most who suggest this haven't taught both ends of the spectrum.

IMO your support to teach younger players a different swing is harmful ... and it also lacks a supporting database and as such fails the Hanson Principle.

[Jake Patterson]

IMO your support to teach younger players a different swing is harmful ... and it also lacks a supporting database and as such fails the Hanson Principle.
This is an old discussion that you should search here at BBF.

There has been much work done in the field of pedagogy and andragogy that suggests and has proved that teaching adults and children is vastly different. I won't offer the whole motor skills, cognitive skill, retention ability, learning motivation, diatribe again as I feel we are closer than you may think. Teaching children the fundamental building blocks that eventually leads to higher learning is the object of teaching anything. We should build upon that which leads to success.

I am suggesting you do not instruct young children using the same instructional methods or level of detail as you would an adult. If you do I would then suggest your methods are flawed.

[BoardMember]

BM ….. IMO your posts in this thread have been somewhat insulting to Chris.

Allow me to explain.

In your first post you asked why someone with potentially considerable experience would bother purchasing Chris’s DVD. The implication was that the DVD includes only basic information and wouldn't be of value to someone at a high level.

That message may be on target … but with the lemonade stand story you paint a picture of a low quality product. You drive the point home by comparing those girls to “Jamba Juice” (i.e., a quality outfit) and then associating Chris with the girls setting up the stand.

The thing is … I know you are clever … … … and capable of thinking things through several steps in advance … …. so I find myself scratching my head with these recent posts.

Ok, here's the point in the simplest terms. Chris O'leary is NOT Steve E, Yeager, or Epstein. No way no how. He doesn't have the experience, background, or expertise to join THAT list, simply by virtue of of the bolded words above............

I would say with reasonable certainty, NO ONE HERE DOES........Including myself......

While Chris HAS spent the last couple of years on a quest to understand, and explain the swing in simple terms, he can not be compared to "the list".

He has contributed a ton to the hitting community. He's put a ton of hard work and effort sharing what he's learned in the limited time he's been on his quest for knowledge.

WITH THAT SAID, how can anyone attempt to criticize/compare, him to "the list" with the same veracity as those "on the list", just because he "charges people" for his attempt to put what he's learned on a DVD..............

As someone who has spent the last 18 years making recruiting videos, I'll be the the first to tell you........IT AIN'T CHEAP.....And compensation is the norm when creating a DVD.........

Again, Chris O has done an extraodinary amount of work in this area. And has done a pretty darn good job of putting his thoughts down on paper, and now has attempted to migrate it to a DVD..........

Mud infered that because Chris put a price (any price) on his DVD, he should be placed in the same BARREL as the rest on "the list".

I DON'T AGREE............

Nor do I agree that Chris O'leary is guilty of this:
..........Epstein, Yeager, Hudgens, Jaramillo, Englishbey, and the many others that have been battered here by one poster or another over the years. . . Several of them by none other then Chris

There's a huge difference between "battering" and being critical or disgreeing with a concept or mechanical sequence in a public forum..........:D

[Mark H]

There's a huge difference between "battering" and being critical or disgreeing with a concept or mechanical sequence in a public forum..........:D

Can we make this a sticky? :)

[FiveFrameSwing]

This is an old discussion that you should search here at BBF.

There has been much work done in the field of pedagogy and andragogy that suggests and has proved that teaching adults and children is vastly different. I won't offer the whole motor skills, cognitive skill, retention ability, learning motivation, diatribe again as I feel we are closer than you may think. Teaching children the fundamental building blocks that eventually leads to higher learning is the object of teaching anything. We should build upon that which leads to success.

I am suggesting you do not instruct young children using the same instructional methods or level of detail as you would an adult. If you do I would then suggest your methods are flawed.

IMO you are running blind when you travel the road of teaching swing mechanics different than you'd teach an adult. Further, you have no video evidence that proves or verifies that young kids function best by being taught a different swing.

Chris Yeager claims that he teaches the same swing mechanics to 8 year olds that he teaches to pros. I can confirm that I've seen DVDs of pros and young kids performing his drills, and these drills are basically equivalent. I do not see the kids struggling, crying or being stressed out. In fact, I've seen before/after results and IMO see significant improvement in terms of developing towards an MLB-like pattern.

Where is your database of non-MLB swings that is ideal for kids but not pros? I suspect there is no such database and that anyone suggesting that such a database exists is winging it and running blind.

IMO we are NOT remotely close on this topic. I disagree strongly with your position on this topic. IMO someone teaching non-MLB mechanics, under the excuse that it's okay to teach someone young something less efficient, is performing a disservice to their students.

Just my opinion ..... but I want to be clear that we differ significantly on this topic.

[mudvnine]

Chris and BM,

Just want to clear something up . . . I respect what Chris has brought to this forum and have learned from some of his stuff and have adamantly disagreed with some of his other posts, but that is the purpose of an open forum. Since I have not seen his new DVD, I will not comment on it or really make judgment of it (other then the price which I have seen) solely on what one person might write here. But on the same note, I see no reason why GetYourBestSwing who did purchase the video should censor what he says or communicate via PM when we don't extend the same courtesy to other instructors here on the site.

How is it that Chris deserves special treatment . . . is it just because he has posted here for awhile? I think Chris knew full well what to expect as soon as he marketed "his version" of a hitting product and is very capable of defending his position for its content as he has proven so far.

BM, it's nice to be loyal Internet friend, but by trying to "help" Chris defend his position, when it is pretty obvious that you haven't seen his finished work, is as FiveFrames points out, actually detrimental and condescending to his cause.

Chris, I wish you luck and hope that others that purchase your DVDs find it interesting, informative, and helpful.


All the best,
Mud

[BoardMember]

This isn't my target market.

I thought the title would make that clear, but I guess I need to be clearer.



I think you've made this perfectly clear Chris several times. I know I didn't miss the "message" in the title. I don't know how others did. Or if they even did......

I think the title is highly appropriate for what you're trying to do both in your presentations on the website, and I assume on the DVD.........

Otherwise, I wouldn't have made the statement.

I'd also add that "BEGINERS" include college level hitters who, by virtue of their athleticism, are great hitters, but couldn't tell you why........And coaches who know what to look for, and know what they want to see, but don't know the terminology that fits mechanic........

In their quest for knowledge, and BEGINING the study of their own swings, the terminology, positions, bio-mechanical movements, and theory explained on the website is an INVALUBLE resourse for those WHO ARE JUST BEGINING to study deeper what happens "in the box"..............From the newbe dads and kids, to the "newly interested" college player.........and coach seeking the "words" to teach what they already know, but don't know how to say it.............These people are all your "beginers"..... Correct me if I'm wrong.......

Believe me, I understand who your audience is..........;)

In other words, It isn't ME, or many of the other knowledgable posters here.........But the audience is HUGE in my opinion.........

Keep up the good work.........:thumbsup:

[BoardMember]

Mud, I've never spoken to Chris. Nor have I ever seen a PM from him. So I'm not "defending" because he's an internet friend......He isn't.......

I'm defending the premise that Chris Oleary is not, and cannot be put in the same barrel as "the list", by virtue of him charging for his DVD...

My point is IF he were a Major League player, or IF he was a Minor League Player who's travel the nation teaching kids to hit, or IF he had a Degree in human performance and had played at the highest college ranks, AND he said some stuff that doesn't square, THEN YES, he would be fair game........

THIS IS NOT THE CASE..........:D

That's all........

As always, Best Regards Mud.....

Chris and BM,

Just want to clear something up . . . I respect what Chris has brought to this forum and have learned from some of his stuff and have adamantly disagreed with some of his other posts, but that is the purpose of an open forum. Since I have not seen his new DVD, I will not comment on it or really make judgment of it (other then the price which I have seen) solely on what one person might write here. But on the same note, I see no reason why GetYourBestSwing who did purchase the video should censor what he says or communicate via PM when we don't extend the same courtesy to other instructors here on the site.

How is it that Chris deserves special treatment . . . is it just because he has posted here for awhile? I think Chris knew full well what to expect as soon as he marketed "his version" of a hitting product and is very capable of defending his position for its content as he has proven so far.

BM, it's nice to be loyal Internet friend, but by trying to "help" Chris defend his position, when it is pretty obvious that you haven't seen his finished work, is as FiveFrames points out, actually detrimental and condescending to his cause.

Chris, I wish you luck and hope that others that purchase your DVDs find it interesting, informative, and helpful.


All the best,
Mud

[Jake Patterson]

Ok, I'll take them one at a time. Maybe we can close the gap.
IMO you are running blind when you travel the road of teaching swing mechanics different than you'd teach an adult. What I said was:Teaching children the fundamental building blocks that eventually leads to higher learning is the object of teaching anything. We should build upon that which leads to success.

Further, you have no video evidence that proves or verifies that young kids function best by being taught a different swing.Not even certain how I can help you here. Follow Chris for a day and film/observe the way in which he interacts and trains young players (4th Grade) versus his college students. If you or he feels they are the same, PM me I would love to talk to him.

Chris Yeager claims that he teaches the same swing mechanics to 8 year olds that he teaches to pros. I can confirm that I've seen DVDs of pros and young kids performing his drills, and these drills are basically equivalent. I do not see the kids struggling, crying or being stressed out. In fact, I've seen before/after results and IMO see significant improvement in terms of developing towards an MLB-like pattern. What you may have seen are those children on his DVD's that perform the skill/drill well after he has worked with them for awhile. What we teach is not the topic - at least in my mind - HOW is.

Where is your database of non-MLB swings that is ideal for kids but not pros? I suspect there is no such database and that anyone suggesting that such a database exists is winging it and running blind.Are you suggesting that you can teach a 4th grader to swing a bat with the same understanding and effectively as a competent HS r college player? I think not. Therefore the training necessary to make progression and/or adjustments at each level has to be different in both content, depth and understanding.

IMO we are NOT remotely close on this topic. I disagree strongly with your position on this topic. I hate throwing the credential card, but I do have an M.Ed. specializing in adult learning (andragogy), with some post graduated work done along the same lines. Again, I think we are closer than it may appear if you acknowledge it's not about what but how. If you do not feel there is any work done along these lines Google Malcolm Knowles and it should get you started.

IMO someone teaching non-MLB mechanics, under the excuse that it's okay to teach someone young something less efficient, is performing a disservice to their students. This would be a bad assumption on your part. Once again - what is taught (from a desired output standpoint) is not the topic. Speak to dozen 9-year-olds about spinal perpendicularity and it's effect on maximizing rotational force and see how far you get. Speak about the same topic to HS seniors trying to play college ball and you may have some interested students.

Just my opinion ..... but I want to be clear that we differ significantly on this topic.I hope not.

[FiveFrameSwing]

This would be a bad assumption on your part. Once again - what is taught (from a desired output standpoint) is not the topic. Speak to dozen 9-year-olds about spinal perpendicularity and it's effect on maximizing rotational force and see how far you get. Speak about the same topic to HS seniors trying to play college ball and you may have some interested students.



Like I stated earlier, IMO you have over complicated the learning process.

I will repeat ..... Chris Yeager uses the same exact drills with 8 year olds that he uses with MLB pros.

The drills are relatively simplistic ..... mainly because a simple approach works quite nicely. The information shared with students is what they can grasp. Speaking above one's level of understanding is never advisable. The drills are simple, and not overly complex ... your comment suggests that you are not familiar with CY's work.

IMO anyone advising that young kids need to be taught different hitting mechanics is making a big mistake.

[Hargrave]

Signor O'Leary

I see you have emulated Dr. Marshall's model of offering free updates of your product as your findings mature.

Questions:

1. Who do you train on a daily basis...
2. And how do you track the quality of their force application technique...
3. Based upon your PhD research into force application techniques...
4. And interval training systems...
5. That led you to a force application theory...
6. And interval training theory...
7. That you would verify or reject based upon the results of your daily trainees...
8. Sorted by their genetic potential and force application technique...
9. Filtered, of course, by your more than dozen years of experience as a standout MLB player???

That is only nine questions, Signor O'Leary. You can't withstand 1,000 questions because you haven't done the work required to do so.

Signore O'Leary, you weren't a mediocre player. You weren't a player, period.

You have no trainees, no training center, no force application theory, no interval training theory.

Why would anyone think your free update will be anything more than regurgitated pablum repackaged from other mouthpieces?

You so badly want to be known for baseball, but you haven't done the work. What makes you think you deserve it?

[callyjr]

Mud, I've never spoken to Chris. Nor have I ever seen a PM from him. So I'm not "defending" because he's an internet friend......He isn't.......

I'm defending the premise that Chris Oleary is not, and cannot be put in the same barrel as "the list", by virtue of him charging for his DVD...

My point is IF he were a Major League player, or IF he was a Minor League Player who's travel the nation teaching kids to hit, or IF he had a Degree in human performance and had played at the highest college ranks, AND he said some stuff that doesn't square, THEN YES, he would be fair game........

THIS IS NOT THE CASE..........:D

That's all........

As always, Best Regards Mud.....

He is selling his product as if he is that person you referenced above, this makes him fair game. How about one of your students buys his DVD. Are you now comfortable letting you student continue learning form Chris?

[callyjr]

Gybs,
I admire what Chris is trying to do and I also acknowledge his pursuit for truth. He, more than most here, has worked hard at understanding the swing. More important he sees the void that exists with new coaches trying to learn, understand and then teach the swing. There is a large gap between what exists and what is needed. Most new coaches are overwhelmed and understandably so. Chris has attempted to bridge that gap and I feel he has made a step in the right direction. If the $60.00 is a problem, send me a PM and I will send you the $60.00 in exchange for the disc. I do believe there are those out there, who are willing to learn and could benefit greatly by the disc.
Jake


hmmmm,

I wonder if Epstein was on here and Chris was tearing him apart if you would offer to refund Chris's his money. I wonder!!!

sorry Jake, just shows me where you stand. you allow people to tear apart Epstein, but defend Chris when he has earned no credibility to this point. Just makes you go hmmmm.

[Ursa Major]

Dang, this is all like the election -- so many ad hominem attacks, and so little time.

Yes, Chris's video is fair game for what it is and what it purports to be, but there's nothing suspicious about Jake or anyone "defending" the merits of Chris' ideas.

First, I don't get the complaint that Chris' DVD "isn't worth the $60 because "it doesn't have enough drills" or "doesn't have great production values" or isn't sophisticated enough. Geez, you coulda gone to the web site or asked Chris first, and he could've told you what was in it or whether it was appropropriate for your training level, GetYerSwing. Hey, I bought Mankin's video and it had only one drill to speak of and I felt kinda taken, but I didn't whine about it. I coulda asked him too.

Maybe it isn't worth the $60 to GetYerSwing, but few things in life are worth that to everyone. (I wouldn't have paid $200 for a Hannah Montana concert ticket, but that doesn't mean it wasn't worth that amount to someone.) But there's a crying dearth of good, not-too-expensive videos that explain the basics of rotational hitting to coaches and parents of youth hitters who are still starting their journey. If that's what Chris offers and he does it well, it's worth that amount.

"Production values"? Geez, as long as he doesn't have a train go by during the middle of the presentation, he's a step ahead of Steve E's DVD! :D (But, on my second viewing of Steve's advanced DVD, I realized that there was so much going on there that I didn't care if he was teaching in the middle of a swamp while wearing rubber fishing waders.)

"Chris didn't play high level ball and his swing is funny." So? Have you ever looked at Paul Nyman's swing? It'll leave you on the floor.... but it doesn't change the fact that he knows more about applying physics and engineering principles to swing theory than just about anyone.

"Chris packages other people's ideas..." See my point above -- there is a need for someone who can synthesize and distill in a comprehensive and hierarchical fashion the various principles that apply to rotational hitting. He doesn't claim to be a guru. And, geez, over 90% of baseball instruction books just recycle (bad) mechanical orthodoxy. Cal Ripken, Jr. probably takes in over a million dollars a year on such books. But, if they help Dads and coaches put it all together, there's a value there.

"Chris is inconsistent because he says people overuse drills . . . but he went and used one." As Emerson noted, "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Chris defends himself well on these points, so I won't re-hash them. But the very need to raise these attacks make it pretty clear that the attackers are more desirous of making points than they are to advance knowledge here. And, as Jake points out, no one is saying that an 8 year old's swing should be vastly different from major leaguer's swing but only that the sophistication of the instruction will vary (you're not going to teach a MLB player about "knocking knuckles vs. punching knuckles"); again, people who just want to pick fights can play that argument but don't advance the debate.

Amidst the snide attacks, there's a fair amount of truth, and Chris is responding admirably to those observations, to his credit. But could everyone make an effort to judge the video and its contents on the basis of its target audience and what it is trying to achieve? And, just because Chris is charging for it doesn't mean that we need to abandon common civility in rendering tough criticism.

[GetYourBestSwing]

Dang, this is all like the election -- so many ad hominem attacks, and so little time.

Yes, Chris's video is fair game for what it is and what it purports to be, but there's nothing suspicious about Jake or anyone "defending" the merits of Chris' ideas.

First, I don't get the complaint that Chris' DVD "isn't worth the $60 because "it doesn't have enough drills" or "doesn't have great production values" or isn't sophisticated enough. Geez, you coulda gone to the web site or asked Chris first, and he could've told you what was in it or whether it was appropropriate for your training level, GetYerSwing. Hey, I bought Mankin's video and it had only one drill to speak of and I felt kinda taken, but I didn't whine about it. I coulda asked him too.

Maybe it isn't worth the $60 to GetYerSwing, but few things in life are worth that to everyone. (I wouldn't have paid $200 for a Hannah Montana concert ticket, but that doesn't mean it wasn't worth that amount to someone.) But there's a crying dearth of good, not-too-expensive videos that explain the basics of rotational hitting to coaches and parents of youth hitters who are still starting their journey. If that's what Chris offers and he does it well, it's worth that amount.

"Production values"? Geez, as long as he doesn't have a train go by during the middle of the presentation, he's a step ahead of Steve E's DVD! :D (But, on my second viewing of Steve's advanced DVD, I realized that there was so much going on there that I didn't care if he was teaching in the middle of a swamp while wearing rubber fishing waders.)

"Chris didn't play high level ball and his swing is funny." So? Have you ever looked at Paul Nyman's swing? It'll leave you on the floor.... but it doesn't change the fact that he knows more about applying physics and engineering principles to swing theory than just about anyone.

"Chris packages other people's ideas..." See my point above -- there is a need for someone who can synthesize and distill in a comprehensive and hierarchical fashion the various principles that apply to rotational hitting. He doesn't claim to be a guru. And, geez, over 90% of baseball instruction books just recycle (bad) mechanical orthodoxy. Cal Ripken, Jr. probably takes in over a million dollars a year on such books. But, if they help Dads and coaches put it all together, there's a value there.

"Chris is inconsistent because he says people overuse drills . . . but he went and used one." As Emerson noted, "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Chris defends himself well on these points, so I won't re-hash them. But the very need to raise these attacks make it pretty clear that the attackers are more desirous of making points than they are to advance knowledge here. And, as Jake points out, no one is saying that an 8 year old's swing should be vastly different from major leaguer's swing but only that the sophistication of the instruction will vary (you're not going to teach a MLB player about "knocking knuckles vs. punching knuckles"); again, people who just want to pick fights can play that argument but don't advance the debate.

Amidst the snide attacks, there's a fair amount of truth, and Chris is responding admirably to those observations, to his credit. But could everyone make an effort to judge the video and its contents on the basis of its target audience and what it is trying to achieve? And, just because Chris is charging for it doesn't mean that we need to abandon common civility in rendering tough criticism.


If you read any of my complaints you would see they go far beyond the production values. it wasn't the production values anyway, it was the fact it's done in the middle of the woods. There is a certain sort of professionalism you must display if you are going to sell a product. Thats just simple business.
if your going to respond, at least look at the complaints I made. Goes far beyond that.

I want drills from videos because every player learns differently.... and maybe there is a drill out there I'm not familiar with that others have used.... that one of my players would learn from. It's that simple.
We have a set of drills we do during the year and in individual lessons and every kid doesn't do EVERY drill..... it's unneccesary.
I want the drill that will specifically teach their body what its supposed to do so it can be done in a game swing without thinking about it.
We have 2 or 3 drills for different phases of the swing... Load, Hitting Position, Balance, Contact Point, Power V, Finish... etc.

I don't like the idea of telling kids, parents, just get in the cage and have someone throw high speed to you to really learn how to hit. Or just go play the game playing stickball, or wiffleball, to learn how to hit. of course there is something to that, teaches the rhythm and timing of the swing of how to square a ball up. But its not that simple for Little Johnny when he has major flaws in his swing that will not carry over into games and hitting off of a live pitcher, 60 feet 6 inches away.
the DRILLS... T-work, Short Toss, BP.... are phases to teach the player the correct swing to carry it over into live game situations. If little Johnny can't be under control with his body swinging in short toss, I'm not gonna throw live BP to him and watch him struggle.... waist of time. I want him to understand the swing before we get to BP, before we get to games... show an understanding of it, how to get his best swing off, and if he struggles in BP or in a game.... we'll figure out way to improve that from there. Thats when approach, timing, rhythm, need to be worked on.... but I am not doing that until I get the kid to learn his best swing first in controlled situations.

We have 4 phases we do our drills with.... T-work, Short Toss, BP, and then live arm game situations.

If the player shows he gets the swing and can control his body on the T... awesome.... lets move onto Short Toss.
If he shows any regression in the short toss... say his load isn't right, or he struggles staying balanced or has a problem with bat drag.... I'm not going to bang my head on the wall TELLING him what he is doing wrong and keep tossing him balls. We have drills to do in short toss as well, but I don't think thats the time to make corrections to the swing, the player will just keep swinging the same way.
I'm going to go back to the T, pick the specific drill that I think will help him....and once he figures it out and understands how to correct it, go back to short toss

I just have a hard time with the idea of a dad standing out there with a bucket of 40 balls just tossing away to little Johnny while he swings at balls in the dirt, over his head, maybe hits a few all right but has bad mechanics.... its an uncontrolled situation.

I want the drills and twork and short toss to be a controlled situation where a player will get 6-8 reps, take a little bit and talk to the player during that time , and then go back at it.


Also, a player who maybe shows he has a good swing during practice, or in drills, in short toss, or batting practice.... but can't translate it over into games.... doesn't mean all the drill work was useless and he needs more time in games. it might have a little something to do with talent... i've seen quite a few kids with productive swings but they just are not talented at squaring up a baseball. Of course they need to get more AB's in games..... why do guys spend 4 years in the minor leagues before they get called up? To get those AB's... of course that is important. But some kids just DONT have it even if they do show an all right swing that you've taught them in lessons.
if a blind person has the best swing in the world, are they going to be a good hitter?? i'm guessing not. just more to it than having a "high level major league swing."

[GetYourBestSwing]

Also, to go along with this.

And this isn't new information, but a way we want to teach and the players to learn.

During batting practice we very , very RARELY say much about mechanics. It's not the time to teach and learn.

We focus on approach... getting our best swing in 0-0, 1-0, 2-0, 3-1 counts... using the whole field ... 2 strike approach... moving runners, hit and run... bla bla bla

This isn't new information.... I'm sure a lot of guys teach like this.

But this just goes along with the part that I don't like saying we need to get these kids in high velocity situations to learn how to hit... it will teach them to be short and compact... I just don't buy that.
it puts them in a position to not succeed.

that's why I like drills... I like twork, I like short toss to TEACH... I don't want to waist my time TEACHING a kid about proper hip movement or staying connected when he is in the box. I want the kid to learn the swing and then learn how to hit when he knows how to swing.

Difference between swinging and hitting, thats for sure.

Hopefully by that time the muscle memory has set in and he knows what his best swing is to get it off in games.

[GetYourBestSwing]

Whatever poster said they were not impressed with the college coaches you have met...

you wouldn't be with me either, trust me. lol

Just a guy obsessed with hitting and baseball... that's all.

[Deemax]

GYBSI want drills from videos because every player learns differently.... and maybe there is a drill out there I'm not familiar with that others have used.... that one of my players would learn from. It's that simple.
We have a set of drills we do during the year and in individual lessons and every kid doesn't do EVERY drill..... it's unneccesary.
I want the drill that will specifically teach their body what its supposed to do so it can be done in a game swing without thinking about it.
We have 2 or 3 drills for different phases of the swing... Load, Hitting Position, Balance, Contact Point, Power V, Finish... etc.

Spoken like an actual coach.

[GetYourBestSwing]

I also think that, given that most coaches are men, there is an aspect of "The Magic _____" thinking when it comes to drills.

That people think that if they can just find the magic _____, then everything will fall into place.

From sport to sport, _____ can be a...

- Putter
- Driver
- Bat
- Lure

One thing fishing has taught me is that my best bet is to stick with a single lure (Wave Worm Tiki Sticks in bubblegum or green pumpkin for my spinning rigs and yellow/yellow bass poppers on my fly rod) and really learn to work it rathr than buying yet another lure that I have to learn how to fish.

I think that in some cases people accumulate drills in the same way, and for the same reason, that people accumulate lures, putters, and drivers.

P.S. Anyone want to buy any of the 200 or so magic lures I have accumulated over the years? To date, my solution has been to just give them to my boys.




Then you shouldn't put on your website your DVD contains 45 minutes of DRILLS. You title the DVD "ROTATIONAL HITTING 101" which BM pointed out should show what the DVD is about.... and you agreed that the title implies what you will get in the DVD.

BUT...Your website has the breakdown of the DVDS... and lists DRILLS(45 minutes)

Forgive me for thinking in 45 minutes there might be a drill of value since you do a nice job on your site. lol

You should then put my DVD contains 45 minutes of DRILLS that will be particularly of no use to anyone but the very basic beginners.

label it that these drills are not your GOOD drills... but just the basics. You did mention in this thread that you do have better drills but are saving that for another DVD.

but the problem with the way you showed even your basic drills.... which I have outlined in this thread..... is that you don't even show them correctly. You dont SHOW the DRILL... you TALK about it. You even commented, VALID POINT, with what I said. So i'm glad you see what i'm saying, you should really fix that part of it. I'm helping.


A parent or youth coach will have zero idea how to actually do the drills.... thats where my problem is. I didn't get anything from it, thats fine.... but what about the parents, coaches, kids that buy the DVD to learn drills from you after the hitting talk parts????

I hope med school doesn't use this method of teaching. Just TELL students how to perform brain surgery.. not actually SHOW them. lol and you don't need video breakdown to show them, you can show them yourself or use a player.... go in slow motion, break it down, TEACH.

So 45 minutes of 120 is spent on DRILLS.... which you don't find valuable to begin with.

You think a player learns to hit better by facing live velocity arms that will teach them to swing SHORT and COMPACT. Or play wiffleball or stickball or indian ball... or hit fungos. Game experience or just HITTING is invaluable.... but if they don't have any idea how to use their lower half, or they take EVERy swing with bat drag and disconnection.... it isn't doing any good.

I think that should be pointed out before anyone buys the DVD looking how to learn how to hit using your Rotational 101 mechanics speech. that's all.

If this is viewed as a flaming or bashing.... I really don't care. That isn't my agenda. Points out a major concern of the video and is nothing personal.
I commend Chris for his passion for hitting as well.... I love it. it's awesome someone wants to help. I would probably get along with Chris amazingly in person because I am antisocial in life unless it comes to baseball... then you can't shut me up. lol

my complaints are nothing to do with him as a person... but his content on his video.

If i go to a restaurant and get a piece of steak that isn't cooked all the way... Or the waitress takes 25 minutes to even give us a menu.... or she doesn't ONCE ask to refill our drinks... I am going to say something. I would want my money back or a free meal.

Should I not say something because the restaurant runs passionate adds saying they want to provide good food to our community????

It doesn't mean I don't commend the waitress for working hard.. hell, she might be a single mom or a student just making money for her kids or school.... I commend that. But I am still upset my steak wasn't done thoroughly.

" Ohhhh, don't worry about, raw meat is FINE....noooo, you guys CARE and are PASSIONATE about your jobs...... you guys are passionate about your job and take this restaurant industry seriously!!!!!! " HAHAHA


I mean come on!!

nothing is personal... i want the rest of the thread to discuss his DVD and learn from it.... thats all. :)

[Chris O'Leary]

There's a huge difference between "battering" and being critical or disgreeing with a concept or mechanical sequence in a public forum..........:D

Or simply trying to ask hard, pointed questions about the differences one sees.

I believe that the way knowledge advances is by asking hard, pointed question and speaking up when we think the emperor may have no clothes.

Of course, the same principle should apply to questions about my work, too.

Thank you for getting this BM and Mark H (and others).

[Chris O'Leary]

I think you've made this perfectly clear Chris several times. I know I didn't miss the "message" in the title. I don't know how others did. Or if they even did......

I think the title is highly appropriate for what you're trying to do both in your presentations on the website, and I assume on the DVD.........

Otherwise, I wouldn't have made the statement.

I'd also add that "BEGINERS" include college level hitters who, by virtue of their athleticism, are great hitters, but couldn't tell you why........And coaches who know what to look for, and know what they want to see, but don't know the terminology that fits mechanic........

In their quest for knowledge, and BEGINING the study of their own swings, the terminology, positions, bio-mechanical movements, and theory explained on the website is an INVALUBLE resourse for those WHO ARE JUST BEGINING to study deeper what happens "in the box"..............From the newbe dads and kids, to the "newly interested" college player.........and coach seeking the "words" to teach what they already know, but don't know how to say it.............These people are all your "beginers"..... Correct me if I'm wrong.......

Believe me, I understand who your audience is..........;)

In other words, It isn't ME, or many of the other knowledgable posters here.........But the audience is HUGE in my opinion.........

Keep up the good work.........:thumbsup:

Again, thank you for getting this.

I do think I may need to add a subtitle to the disk to make it clearer.

[Chris O'Leary]

hmmmm,

I wonder if Epstein was on here and Chris was tearing him apart if you would offer to refund Chris's his money. I wonder!!!

sorry Jake, just shows me where you stand. you allow people to tear apart Epstein, but defend Chris when he has earned no credibility to this point. Just makes you go hmmmm.

I have never torn apart Epstein the man.

I have pointed out that I have seen bat drag problems result from one of his drills. I have questioned whether he understands bat drag based on pictures that he has posted to his web site and things he has said about what he sees in those pictures.

I also expressed positive interest in Epstein's fence drill.

The fact that you took that as an attack is your own deal.

[Chris O'Leary]

You should then put my DVD contains 45 minutes of DRILLS that will be particularly of no use to anyone but the very basic beginners.

Up until 20 or 30 years ago, there were very few drills out there. Instead, most people just played games like stickball and pepper and they hit quite well.

The explosion of, and focus on, drills has really only happened in the last 20 or 30 years, and it may not be a coincidence that hitting hasn't gotten better over that time (and arguably has gotten worse).

I think the time has come to ask hard questions about the whole culture of the drill and the quest for the magic drill.

P.S. How much time to you think kids from the Caribbean and south of the border spend on drills versus just playing the game? I believe that if Pujols, Manny, Ortiz, and others can end up with good swings despite a lack of drills, then that might say something about drills.


but the problem with the way you showed even your basic drills.... which I have outlined in this thread..... is that you don't even show them correctly. You dont SHOW the DRILL... you TALK about it. You even commented, VALID POINT, with what I said. So i'm glad you see what i'm saying, you should really fix that part of it. I'm helping.

And I intend to fix this based on this feedback, so thanks.

[Chris O'Leary]

My Point Of View regarding what to teach when is probably pretty close to Jake's.

I have done a lot of coaching, in multiple sports, ranging in age from Kindergarten through the minor league level and know that you have to teach different things at different ages. Too few coaches take basic, developmental factors (e.g. ego-centrism) into account when coaching little kids, for example. Right now, my 1st grade girls are driving me crazy with how they clump up at midfield when playing soccer, but a lot of that is due to where they are developmentally.

It's just hard for most of them to move off the ball.

In terms of teaching hitting, my first rule of thumb is to not teach something that I will later have to un-teach. Squishing the bug definitely fits into that category. Bat drag also kind of fits into that category, but it does have something to do with strength so to a degree you just have to wait for a kid to grow out of it.

I will certainly not teach some of the more sophisticated aspects of the swing (e.g. internal rotation of front knee and advanced loading of the hips) to most kids, but will to my more advanced kids and to kids as they get older.

[BoardMember]

Whatever poster said they were not impressed with the college coaches you have met...

you wouldn't be with me either, trust me. lol

Just a guy obsessed with hitting and baseball... that's all.

FYI, when we practice twice a week in the spring/summer, ONE of my practices ALWAYS include a 6 station hitting circuit.......

So I understand your obsession with Drills. Keeping it fresh yet productive is very important.....

If you google "baseball hitting drills" you'll get 117,000 pages of drills......:D

[FiveFrameSwing]

GetYourBestSwing, with all this talk of drills and a deep passion for hitting, I'm wondering if you've reviewed Cohen's DVD on hitting drills (contains 40 drills, price = $30), and if you would provide a review.

Cohen: 40 Hitting Drills (http://www.bestbaseballswing.com/Order_40_Hitting_Drills_to.php)

[Jake Patterson]

Like I stated earlier, IMO you have over complicated the learning process.

I will repeat ..... Chris Yeager uses the same exact drills with 8 year olds that he uses with MLB pros.

The drills are relatively simplistic ..... mainly because a simple approach works quite nicely. The information shared with students is what they can grasp. Speaking above one's level of understanding is never advisable. The drills are simple, and not overly complex ... your comment suggests that you are not familiar with CY's work.

IMO anyone advising that young kids need to be taught different hitting mechanics is making a big mistake.
Five, You are completely missing the point and/or refuse to see it and I believe further discussion will only exacerbate the problem, so I will let it die here.

[Jake Patterson]

hmmmm,

I wonder if Epstein was on here and Chris was tearing him apart if you would offer to refund Chris's his money. I wonder!!!

sorry Jake, just shows me where you stand. you allow people to tear apart Epstein, but defend Chris when he has earned no credibility to this point. Just makes you go hmmmm.Again Cally, I have given Epstein a very fair shake here and in many posts supported him, so you have me befuddled with this constant line of comments.

[Jake Patterson]

GetYourBestSwing, with all this talk of drills and a deep passion for hitting, I'm wondering if you've reviewed Cohen's DVD on hitting drills (contains 40 drills, price = $30), and if you would provide a review.

Cohen: 40 Hitting Drills (http://www.bestbaseballswing.com/Order_40_Hitting_Drills_to.php)
Turtle Thomas - Man of a Thousand Drills!

[FiveFrameSwing]

Jake, I'm specifically asking about Cohen's drills on his DVD. Have you reviewed his material? If so, could you give a review?

Also .... who is Turtle Thomas?

[Jake Patterson]

Jake, I'm specifically asking about Cohen's drills on his DVD. Have you reviewed his material? If so, could you give a review?

Also .... who is Turtle Thomas?

Turtle is the head coach at Florida International (?) and coached at LSU for years. He is know throughout the baseball ranks for his drills and has several DVD's available. Some are pretty interesting. He has been a key speaker at the World Baseball Convention and runs a summer camp down south. Here's a start: http://www.infosports.com/videos/baseball/

As far as the other conversation. I think it best to leave it alone. We are on two completely different tracks and you would need a working understanding of pedagogy and andragogy and an understanding how adults and children learn to effectively continue the discussion. I agree CY uses the same drills for children and adults.

[beemax]

I have done a lot of coaching, in multiple sports, ranging in age from Kindergarten through the minor league level

Chris,

You have coached at the minor league level?

[BallCoach06]

Jake, I'm specifically asking about Cohen's drills on his DVD. Have you reviewed his material? If so, could you give a review?

Also .... who is Turtle Thomas?

Cohen's DVD has quite a few tee drills. Cohen has been influenced quite a bit by a few hitting guru's, namely, Mike Epstein. A lot of what I have heard Cohen talk about at clinics and on his DVD, I have heard Epstein comment about. Cohen's name even appears on the Mike Epstein CD-ROM.

He breaks down swing mechanics a little bit, but like I said it is mostly a DVD on tee drills and a few short toss/soft toss drills. I think it is a great DVD if you like working a lot of stuff off the tee (which I do).

There are also some drills that help getting the weight off the back side, loading, striding, etc.

I will say this. Cohen's teams have always hit the ball!

[beemax]

Also .... who is Turtle Thomas?

Turtle Thomas was a longtime college assistant at LSU, Clemson, Miami, Georgia Tech and ASU. He is now the coach at FIU and is a pretty big name in college baseball.

[Ursa Major]

GetYer said: If you read any of my complaints you would see they go far beyond the production values. it wasn't the production values anyway, it was the fact it's done in the middle of the woods. There is a certain sort of professionalism you must display if you are going to sell a product. Thats just simple business. if your going to respond, at least look at the complaints I made. Goes far beyond that. GYS, I don't think Chris was looking for salesmanship lessons here. I think it's enough to politely say, "I think you'd do better with your next version if you do X...."

And I did look at the complaints you made. Many of them are very good and insightful, including your long discussion about why you use drills that you posted in your response to me. Guess what? I don't need to respond to every point in your thousands of words of your diatribes -- those words speak for themselves. In trying to advance the dialogue, I'm merely addressing those that I think unfairly attack Chris and, more importantly, do not contribute much (or miss the point of) whether Chris' DVD is of value to a segment of the baseball hitting public.

What I think many of us forget but Chris seems to understand is that you need to get your head around the whole idea of rotational hitting before you can even worry about drills.When I moved on from the idiocy of linear hitting I'd been taught as a kid, I first needed to understand at a very, basic level why good hitters hit well.

What is a double pendulum?

What is the law of conservation of angular momentum?

What is a circular hand path and how does it relate to the above?

Do you need to extend your arms to get maximum bat speed per the above?

How does tilt/posture and "connection" contribute to the above?

From there, you can build up your understanding of what a good swing is and why you want to have one. Only then will good drills make sense. As my post says, Mankin's Final Arc DVD was short on drills, but it had value because it moved my understanding forward so that I could comprehend what I was learning here and from more advanced instructors, like Steve E. and Jim Booth. In fact, Steve's "Basic Swing Training" video is very light on drills to, as he devotes most of it to talking about swing basics.

So, your long discussion of drills is very helpful in general terms, but it doesn't undermine the value of Chris' DVD for what it apparently is. I find it difficult to believe that you feel shortchanged because you -- a master hitting instructor -- didn't get even more drills added to your repertoire by his DVD. His web site says you get, "Rotational Hitting Drills (35 Minutes)" If they're there, then he's done his job; if not, he should change the web site.

I agree that drills and muscle memory are key tools, but I find myself -- at least in group settings -- relying largely on three or four key drillls anyway. Kids hate drills, and they won't do them well unless you're working one-on-one. (And those who do are likely going to be good hitters regardless of what I do.) And sometimes, the best thing to do is to let the kid "teach" himself with feedback. For example, Ursa Minor has a problem with occasionally pushing his hands toward the pitcher just before contact, and he knows it. I could devise a fancy drill, but usually just make him move the tee back a few inches toward home plate. With a 'bad' swing, he'll then just bounce the ball down the first base line; when he gets it right, he drills the ball up the middle. By doing it this way, he has invested more of himself in the learning process, and is more likely to find his way back from the darkness if this flaw creeps back in. Immediate feedback often can trump fancy drills.

All the other "specialty" drills are pulled out of my bag only when working one-on-one with a kid, and I'm not sure a 35 minute segment in a video is the place to put them. (Some videos are expressly for coaches to use -- a not for kids to view -- and can address that.) Often I make 'em up on the spot to address a particular flaw; I thought I was the inventor of the "hit the third base coach with a karate chop" cue until I saw someone else use it a few months ago. (Sigh...) So, it's not that drills aren't valuable in their place, but they're not so basic to understanding good hitting that a basic hitting introductory video is necessarily flawed if it doesn't focus on them.

GYS, you've got a lot to contribute here, but it's going to be less frustrating for you and more helpful for everyone if you try to focus your criticisms on whether or not a particular bit of advice given by someone here (or elsewhere, like w/Epstein, Englishbey, etc.) is helpful or not to teaching a particular segment of ballplayer to hit better. And, I think that focus by each of us can only make us better coaches when we do work with young people.

Oh, and by the way, not all of my criticisms were directed at you. Behind most of the your lengthy critique lies the heart of a genuine teacher and lover of good hitting. That's wonderful. Many others here, however, seem more concerned with showing they're smarter than other folks. If you deep in your heart think my criticisms don't apply to you, fine. But don't assume out of hand that they don't. And, as always, pick up some cues from Jake about the best way of teaching young people -- cuz that's what it's all about.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Thank you Beemax. I'm watching his videos pointed at from Jake's link. I've seen some of his demonstrations before but didn't take note of his name.

[callyjr]

Again Cally, I have given Epstein a very fair shake here and in many posts supported him, so you have me befuddled with this constant line of comments.

sorry Jake, just seeing the script as I read it. Nothing personal. I just found it kinda interesting.

[callyjr]

I have never torn apart Epstein the man.

I have pointed out that I have seen bat drag problems result from one of his drills. I have questioned whether he understands bat drag based on pictures that he has posted to his web site and things he has said about what he sees in those pictures.

I also expressed positive interest in Epstein's fence drill.

The fact that you took that as an attack is your own deal.

You can sugar coat it however you like Chris but I know and most the others on here knew you intentions every time you put up a new post about Epstein this or that. The one I liked most was when you put that kid that had a really bad swing up 3 or 4 times saying he had been to an Epstein instructor, or how about the old guy with the cigar in his mouth. None of it was constructive was it? Give me a break, you can talk until your blue in the face about how its just constructive, but no one is listening are they.

Have a great holiday to all, I'm done with the Chris bashing. Its not productive for anyone.

[BoardMember]

Thank you Beemax. I'm watching his videos pointed at from Jake's link. I've seen some of his demonstrations before but didn't take note of his name.

Coach Turtle says:

"Pivot that back foot as fast as you can because it WILL turn the hips......"

And

"Get that weight over the front foot".........

Hmmmmmmmmm...........

[FiveFrameSwing]

Yeah, I listened to that video also.

IMO he frequently referred to the "shift" in the "center of pressure" as a back foot "pivot".

At first his back foot "pivot" almost sounded like "bug squishing" ... but he also attributed this to weight transfer forward.

Turtle Thomas:
Pivot fast gives you bat speed without a doubt.

It takes that loaded up 70% of your body weight from you back foot and … that is what transfers that weight forward … using the weight of your body to help drive the baseball.

Pivoting in the back foot, twisting, turning on the back foot, gets the middle core muscles, the big strong muscles of your body, into the ball.

I translated this to ....

The shift enhances one’s bat speed. A fast shift translates into a fast swing. It takes the weight loaded up on the backside and transfers that weight forward, and in a sense uses the weight of your body to help drive the ball. The shift from the back foot gets the strong middle core muscles involved with the swing.

[GetYourBestSwing]

Jake, I'm specifically asking about Cohen's drills on his DVD. Have you reviewed his material? If so, could you give a review?

Also .... who is Turtle Thomas?


I have seen Cohen's video, yes. Saw him speak in person as well and talked to one of his assistants about some of the things they emphasize for a bit.
I tried to get a player from Kentucky on my summer league team for a selfish reason, to find out everything they do. lol sneaky I know.

they rake, flat out rake. I have heard from a few guys that their batting practice and Dallas Baptist's batting practice's are just amazing to watch. Backspin linedrives all over the yard.

I'll send you a PM .

[GetYourBestSwing]

Up until 20 or 30 years ago, there were very few drills out there. Instead, most people just played games like stickball and pepper and they hit quite well.

The explosion of, and focus on, drills has really only happened in the last 20 or 30 years, and it may not be a coincidence that hitting hasn't gotten better over that time (and arguably has gotten worse).

I think the time has come to ask hard questions about the whole culture of the drill and the quest for the magic drill.

P.S. How much time to you think kids from the Caribbean and south of the border spend on drills versus just playing the game? I believe that if Pujols, Manny, Ortiz, and others can end up with good swings despite a lack of drills, then that might say something about drills.




And I intend to fix this based on this feedback, so thanks.


I don't agree hitting was better 20 or 30 years ago. Why aren't we breaking down swings from the 70's and 80's then instead of todays hitters?
isn't the point of DVD's like yours to get away from the linear cues that were taught 20 or 30 years ago?

maybe players shouldn't weight train anymore either then, since hitting was better 20 or 30 years ago when they didn't believe in weight training. maybe thats it.



Yea, you are right, Pujols, Manny, Ortiz, and OTHERS can hit from lack of drills growing up.... it's called sperm and egg. Your talking about the ELITE of the ELITE.... Those guys are not in the big leagues because of their "high level major league swing".... they have a "high level major league swing" because of their talent and skill set...... they are different.

One of the best hitters with one of the best swings I've ever coached is playing NAIA ball right now.... he has ZERO shot at playing pro ball because his skill set doesn't allow it. His swing can't get any better, he has mastered it spending a ton of time on it. He has a "major league swing" without "major league" skill sets... or he can blame his parents for the genes they passed down. lol

Little Johnny is not going to become Pujols by playing stickball everyday unless its in his genetic makeup.

Have you read anything on Pujols offseason workouts?

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris,

You have coached at the minor league level?

You know what I mean.

I am currently working with multiple, affiliated, minor league hitters and pitchers.

[Chris O'Leary]

You can sugar coat it however you like Chris but I know and most the others on here knew you intentions every time you put up a new post about Epstein this or that.

Thinking you can read people's mind rarely yields productive results.

Sometimes things just are what they are.

[GetYourBestSwing]

[value of Chris' DVD for what it apparently is. I find it difficult to believe that you feel shortchanged because you -- a master hitting instructor -- didn't get even more drills added to your repertoire



I'd like it made VERY clear I do not think I am a "master hitting instructor" or anything special AT ALL.

So those shots can stop now.

I explained my background to make it clear this isn't a once a week thing trying to teach my little boy how to hit. That's it.

If I was trying to IMPRESS, I wouldn't have listed my background because it isn't anything to get excited about, trust me. lol And if I was going to fake being someone, i wouldn't have picked a guy with a resume like mine.

[beemax]

I'm defending the premise that Chris Oleary is not, and cannot be put in the same barrel as "the list", by virtue of him charging for his DVD...

My point is IF he were a Major League player, or IF he was a Minor League Player who's travel the nation teaching kids to hit, or IF he had a Degree in human performance and had played at the highest college ranks, AND he said some stuff that doesn't square, THEN YES, he would be fair game........

THIS IS NOT THE CASE..........:D


I couldn't disagree more.

Chris had the guts to put out a DVD. I commend him for that.

Your lemonade stand analogy was way off IMO, especially when you are comparing a $.25 cup of lemonade to a $66 DVD (60 for the DVD and 6 dollars for shipping).

You cannot charge $66 ($66! For one DVD!), claim you are an EXPERT when it comes to pitching and hitting, and claim that your work is followed by some at the highest levels and be immune to taking criticism or being compared to others who charge for DVDs or who have much, much, much more experience.

Chris is absolutely fair game because he has put himself out there and he is making claims that can (and should) be asked about IMO. He should not get any free pass.

[BoardMember]

I couldn't disagree more.

Chris had the guts to put out a DVD. I commend him for that.

Your lemonade stand analogy was way off IMO, especially when you are comparing a $.25 cup of lemonade to a $66 DVD (60 for the DVD and 6 dollars for shipping).

You cannot charge $66 ($66! For one DVD!), claim you are an EXPERT when it comes to pitching and hitting, and claim that your work is followed by some at the highest levels and be immune to taking criticism or being compared to others who charge for DVDs or who have much, much, much more experience.

Chris is absolutely fair game because he has put himself out there and he is making claims that can (and should) be asked about IMO. He should not get any free pass.

Max, I didn't say he should get a FREE pass. I said that KNOWING FULL WELL who he is, and what he's trying to accomplish, he should NOT face the same VERACITY of criticism as Steve, Mike or Chris Yeager........

You're (and it seems many others) frustrated and put-off because of a preceived Facade you believe Chris puts on........

I guess I don't see the Facade you see.........Maybe it's because I'm not intimitated by it.........And others are.........

I've NEVER see him come across on this forum like he's thinks he's an "expert" in the field........

I see him for someone that is trying learn as much as possible about the swing, and putting it down on paper,(or DVD).......

I have to feel there are some ego's driving this "Chris O'leary thinks he's an expert" deal you and others speak off........

I'll tell you this, Chris, along with most people who frequent this board, have been exposed to just about EVERY possible theory/mechanic you can think of regarding hitting.......

When compared to 99% of the ENTIRE POPULATION of the BASEBALL WORLD, from the DADS to the COACHES.........Chris, and MANY MANY OTHERS HERE, YOURSELF, MYSELF AND MANY OTHERS INCLUDED, KNOW MORE ABOUT HITTING then most..........

WHY DO YOU TRY TO TAKE AWAY FROM THAT FACT??????????

It's beyone me.........

STEP OUT OF YOUR GLASS BOTTLE, and take a look at the percentages from begining Rec. Ball, through MOST at the highschool level...........Tell me I'm wrong...........

Because YOU travel in an elite circle of hitting instuctors, means you are VERY SHELTERED from the "real world"..........

Get over it............And quit bringing up the $66 bucks. That's a joke......

People who take the time to produce a DVD should be compensated......PERIOD..........

You'd never know, because YOU'D never do it..................

[BoardMember]

Your lemonade stand analogy was way off IMO, especially when you are comparing a $.25 cup of lemonade to a $66 DVD (60 for the DVD and 6 dollars for shipping).


Actually, I thought it was right on......Why? Because when I walked up that stand, I KNEW EXACTLY WHAT I WAS PAYING FOR.......And it wasn't a triple juiced drink from Jamba Juice.........

Now IF I walked into Jamba Juice, and got a not-so-perfect drink, I'd sure as hell complain........NOT BECAUSE OF THE MONEY. Because THEY ARE EXPERTS..........AND I KNOW IT..........

JUST LIKE THE GUYS ON "THE LIST"............

CHRIS AIN'T JAMBA JUICE and YOU know it..........

[omg]

... say his load isn't right, or he struggles staying balanced..."

Do you think balance can be taught or improved? How? I'm talking about that point, maybe you would call it load, in which more weight is temporarily on the back foot than front. Can balance on the back foot be improved?

[GetYourBestSwing]

Do you think balance can be taught or improved? How? I'm talking about that point, maybe you would call it load, in which more weight is temporarily on the back foot than front. Can balance on the back foot be improved?


I think body control and balance are important and can be taught or improved, yes.

I am pretty sure I understand what position you are talking about.

We use a few different drills I could message you with if you really wanted me too.

[GetYourBestSwing]

Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary
Up until 20 or 30 years ago, there were very few drills out there. Instead, most people just played games like stickball and pepper and they hit quite well.



Interesting you mention pepper.

Pepper promotes about everything a rotational instructor would not want to see.

Little to no rotation of the hips or shoulders

Hitting the top half of the baseball

Hitting ground balls

Poor Posture

Little to No tilt

Certainly not a circular hand path



Very poor finish



This list could go on. Pepper is all hands with little rotation. if you did take a swing with the proper bat path you would probably hurt the guys throwing the ball. lol

Self toss and Pepper shouldn't be promoted to teach someone how to swing.

You want to play pepper to warm up or get loose with timing, I dont even know, those are the only things I can see would be of any benefit... other than just being one of those little games you can have fun with to kill time.

[callyjr]

I don't agree hitting was better 20 or 30 years ago. Why aren't we breaking down swings from the 70's and 80's then instead of todays hitters?
isn't the point of DVD's like yours to get away from the linear cues that were taught 20 or 30 years ago?

maybe players shouldn't weight train anymore either then, since hitting was better 20 or 30 years ago when they didn't believe in weight training. maybe thats it.



Yea, you are right, Pujols, Manny, Ortiz, and OTHERS can hit from lack of drills growing up.... it's called sperm and egg. Your talking about the ELITE of the ELITE.... Those guys are not in the big leagues because of their "high level major league swing".... they have a "high level major league swing" because of their talent and skill set...... they are different.

One of the best hitters with one of the best swings I've ever coached is playing NAIA ball right now.... he has ZERO shot at playing pro ball because his skill set doesn't allow it. His swing can't get any better, he has mastered it spending a ton of time on it. He has a "major league swing" without "major league" skill sets... or he can blame his parents for the genes they passed down. lol

Little Johnny is not going to become Pujols by playing stickball everyday unless its in his genetic makeup.

Have you read anything on Pujols offseason workouts?

11 starting SS's or little Johnie's as you call them in the majors right now from the DOMINICAN. you play 8 hours a day 300 plus days a year and your gonna get it at some point.

[Deemax]

gybsI don't agree hitting was better 20 or 30 years ago. Why aren't we breaking down swings from the 70's and 80's then instead of todays hitters?


Mostly because there is not as much video of the older guys. Its a piece of cake to find a video of todays players....yesteryears, not so much.

[cubsphill]

You know what I mean.

I am currently working with multiple, affiliated, minor league hitters and pitchers.

May I ask who?

[FiveFrameSwing]

I've NEVER see him come across on this forum like he's thinks he's an "expert" in the field........

I see him for someone that is trying learn as much as possible about the swing, and putting it down on paper,(or DVD).......

I have to feel there are some ego's driving this "Chris O'leary thinks he's an expert" deal you and others speak off........


BM, you may not be aware of this, but Chris has the following information on his website ... "I have become an expert when it comes to pitching mechanics and rotational hitting. I have even gotten to the point where my work is followed by a number of major league scouts and player development folks." My guess is that this may be a source of the "expert" status discussion.

IMO some of the most knowledgable sources don't consider themselves experts, but more as continual "students of the game".

[beemax]

Max, I didn't say he should get a FREE pass. I said that KNOWING FULL WELL who he is, and what he's trying to accomplish, he should NOT face the same VERACITY of criticism as Steve, Mike or Chris Yeager........

What is he trying to accomplish BM?

I see someone trying to get to the highest levels of the game. Why should he not be able to face the same veracity of criticism of those who seek the same goal or are at that level already?

I guess I don't see the Facade you see.........Maybe it's because I'm not intimitated by it.........And others are.........

I do wonder who CO intimidates. If you know of any people I'd love to hear it.

I've NEVER see him come across on this forum like he's thinks he's an "expert" in the field........


That's debatable, but I see what you are trying to say. Why don't I quote right from CO's website:

I have become an expert when it comes to pitching mechanics and rotational hitting. I have even gotten to the point where my work is followed by a number of major league scouts and player development folks.

That is not debatable.

I see him for someone that is trying learn as much as possible about the swing, and putting it down on paper,(or DVD).......

I see him in much the same light, but when you put out a DVD like he has done, it is not about learning for him. It is about making money. God bless him for that, but we have every right to look at it critically. Especially if he wants to take $66 from us.

It's beyone me.........

STEP OUT OF YOUR GLASS BOTTLE, and take a look at the percentages from begining Rec. Ball, through MOST at the highschool level...........Tell me I'm wrong...........

Because YOU travel in an elite circle of hitting instuctors, means you are VERY SHELTERED from the "real world"..........

Stop assuming what you know about me.

You think that because I played pro ball I am sheltered from the "real world" that other posters and your average ballplayer or coach know of. Sorry if you think my experience at all levels somehow disqualifies me from understanding the nuances of the "real world."

I interact with hitting instructors, players, and parents on a weekly basis, but I guess I am too sheltered still...

Get over it............And quit bringing up the $66 bucks. That's a joke......

It is a joke. But you and I have different reasons why.

People who take the time to produce a DVD should be compensated......PERIOD..........

Seriously? Anybody who produces a DVD should be compensated? No matter what? This is outside of just the CO conversation. And IMO that is a ridiculous point of view.

You'd never know, because YOU'D never do it..................


Again, assuming what you know about me. Right now, making a hitting DVD is not a goal of mine. I have other goals that I would like to attain. But go on assuming and trying to stir the pot...

That being said, I have never, ever claimed that I was an 'expert' at hitting, nor do I pretend to be.

IMO those that do claim it deserve to be put to the test.

[beemax]

Actually, I thought it was right on......Why? Because when I walked up that stand, I KNEW EXACTLY WHAT I WAS PAYING FOR.......And it wasn't a triple juiced drink from Jamba Juice.........

Now IF I walked into Jamba Juice, and got a not-so-perfect drink, I'd sure as hell complain........NOT BECAUSE OF THE MONEY. Because THEY ARE EXPERTS..........AND I KNOW IT..........

JUST LIKE THE GUYS ON "THE LIST"............

CHRIS AIN'T JAMBA JUICE and YOU know it..........

Why are you defending Chris?

He is an adult. He calls himself an expert. He's charging serious money for a DVD. IMO you are treating him like a child. He can defend himself.

If you want to pay $66 for his DVD, knowing that you don't believe he is an expert, be my guest. But why defend him? I don't get it.

[FiveFrameSwing]

It was brought to my attention that the following post from Chris O'Leary was deleted. Leads one to wonder if there is an alliance between Chris O'Leary & Steve Englishbey.


Chris O'Leary:

There is a reason why I shipped my hitting DVD when I did...

1. People were pressing me to ship it as is (I guess they think the state of the art still has major problems and they want to get a jump on the upcoming season).

2. From what I have heard, Steve's stuff is good but he doesn't do the best job of presenting it and it's a little too complicated (too in the weeds).

What I'm trying to do right now is create a primer that introduces people to the terms at a basic level; to give them enough of an understanding that they can help kids get on the right track (and not get them off track with Linear or Extension cues).

My plan going forward is to continue to leave the more advanced stuff up to Steve.

I have referred probably 20 people to Steve and will continue to do so.

[omg]

Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary
Up until 20 or 30 years ago, there were very few drills out there. Instead, most people just played games like stickball and pepper and they hit quite well.



Interesting you mention pepper.

Pepper promotes about everything a rotational instructor would not want to see.

Little to no rotation of the hips or shoulders

Hitting the top half of the baseball

Hitting ground balls

Poor Posture

Little to No tilt

Certainly not a circular hand path



Very poor finish



This list could go on. Pepper is all hands with little rotation. if you did take a swing with the proper bat path you would probably hurt the guys throwing the ball. lol

Self toss and Pepper shouldn't be promoted to teach someone how to swing.

You want to play pepper to warm up or get loose with timing, I dont even know, those are the only things I can see would be of any benefit... other than just being one of those little games you can have fun with to kill time.

I disagree about pepper completely. It teaches bat control and eye-hand coordination. A batter sees a live overhand arm. It is, as you say, a great pre-game warm-up and helps with timing-no small thing.

Also, you are not the first to say self-toss,or fungo-hitting is bad. I disagree.It promotes eye-hand coordination and especially the proper line drive path of the swing.

[omg]

I think body control and balance are important and can be taught or improved, yes.

I am pretty sure I understand what position you are talking about.

We use a few different drills I could message you with if you really wanted me too.


Great,pm me if you don't mind. I'm real interested.

[Ursa Major]

I said to GetYourBS: I find it difficult to believe that you feel shortchanged because you -- a master hitting instructor -- didn't get even more drills added to your repertoire

GetYourBS replied: "I'd like it made VERY clear I do not think I am a "master hitting instructor" or anything special AT ALL. So those shots can stop now."Who's taking a shot at you?? I was complimenting your knowledge level -- sorry if it came across sarcastically. My point remains -- I don't think you really needed to learn any more drills -- I figure at this point that, if I can pick up one good drill a month from my reading and viewing, I'm ahead of the game. I think that Chris' DVD wasn't a good match for your knowledge level -- if for no reason other than that there was a failure of communication between the buyer and seller as to what actually was on the DVD, and we should leave it at that.
GetYourBS said: "I disagree about pepper completely. It teaches bat control and eye-hand coordination. A batter sees a live overhand arm. It is, as you say, a great pre-game warm-up and helps with timing-no small thing. It certainly has fallen out of favor, and in fact many fields have "No Pepper" stenciled on the backstop. Anyone know why? In any case, I thought it was as much to loosen up the fielders as the hitter.

[Ursa Major]

FiveFrame said: Chris O'Leary posted this: "What I'm trying to do right now is create a primer that introduces people to the terms at a basic level; to give them enough of an understanding that they can help kids get on the right track (and not get them off track with Linear or Extension cues).

My plan going forward is to continue to leave the more advanced stuff up to Steve. I have referred probably 20 people to Steve and will continue to do so. " FFS went on to say, "Leads one to wonder if there is an alliance between Chris O'Leary & Steve Englishbey."Uh, I think you've been hitting the eggnog a little hard, FFS -- it's making you paranoid. It sounds to me like a healthy recognition by Chris of the limits of his expertise (or at least the limits of his DVD). Because there is congruity and consistency between much of his theories and those of Steve, it makes sense to pass students/viewers up to the next level.

How does this make it an "alliance"? And, if it was, who cares? Are you thinking that Chris' whole DVD scheme is to lure in the unwitting with his DVD, and direct them to Steve before those innocents have a chance to move on to the arch nemesis of the O'Leary/Englishbey cabal -- Mike Epstein?

[FiveFrameSwing]

Ursa Major .... in an earlier post you clearly acknowledged extending criticism and in your response above you don't come off as looking especially diplomatic by referring to GetYourBestSwing as GetYourBS. Pretty immature and uncalled for. Perhaps you thought you were at the HI message board?

As for GetYourBestSwing's desire for more drills ... he is the consumer and he's welcome to shop for what he desires.

You seem to have taken GetYourBestSwing's review of Chris O'Leary's material personally ..... and I'm left wondering if your offense has more to do with the affiliation with Steve Englishbey's material.


p.s.

Jake ...
I certainly hope this message board is not reverting back to being a biased website. These attacks on GetYourBestSwing seem to have a bias and once again they align with your favorite hitting instructor. I believe we lost several decent contributors this year because of that issue. Let's learn from the experience.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Uh, I think you've been hitting the eggnog a little hard, FFS -- it's making you paranoid. It sounds to me like a healthy recognition by Chris of the limits of his expertise (or at least the limits of his DVD). Because there is congruity and consistency between much of his theories and those of Steve, it makes sense to pass students/viewers up to the next level.

How does this make it an "alliance"? And, if it was, who cares? Are you thinking that Chris' whole DVD scheme is to lure in the unwitting with his DVD, and direct them to Steve before those innocents have a chance to move on to the arch nemesis of the O'Leary/Englishbey cabal -- Mike Epstein?

No UrsaMajor .... I'm completely sober.

The majority of those attacking GetYourBestSwing appear to be from the Englishbey camp. No egg nog .... just calling it as I see it.

[GetYourBestSwing]

posted by callyjr
{11 starting SS's or little Johnie's as you call them in the majors right now from the DOMINICAN. you play 8 hours a day 300 plus days a year and your gonna get it at some point. }


I agree. They play all the time and it helps when you are that talented.

What do you think it was like for Manny or Pujols or Renteria, any of the SS's that are starting in the majors the first time they picked up a stick to play stickball..... I'll just tell you this, it wasn't an awkward thing for them swinging a stick. They more they played, obviously the better they got. And how do we know how often Manny or renteria or any of those guys played or what they played anyway? lol

They didn't become what they are from playing stickball all the time..... stickball helped advance their skills..... but it goes far beyond that.



It's stated many times on these boards how former players have a difficult time explaining how they do what they do.... professionals are just different.
I could have played stickball 8 hours a day 300 days per year and it wouldn't have gotten me to the big leagues, just wasn't talented enough.

You can take all the voice lessons and sing your heart out 8 hours a day, doesn't mean you are going to become aretha franklin.

[GetYourBestSwing]

gybs

Mostly because there is not as much video of the older guys. Its a piece of cake to find a video of todays players....yesteryears, not so much.


Yea.

But if guys were better hitters 20-30 years ago than todays hitters.... then we should be doing the same things they did in the 70's, giving the same cues, and playing pepper.... also shouldn't be weight training and also shouldn't be trying to sell hitting DVD's.
DVD's weren't around back then.... or are the DVD's out to improve what was taught 20-30 years ago and get away from the cues they used?


Confusing.

[GetYourBestSwing]

No UrsaMajor .... I'm completely sober.

The majority of those attacking GetYourBestSwing appear to be from the Englishbey camp. No egg nog .... just calling it as I see it.



I don't feel I have been attacked.

I haven't discussed anything personal AT ALL and only discussed the material in the DVD. Hope it stays that way.

Questioning who I am, or taking shots at college coaches doesn't bother me. I'm a big boy.

[GetYourBestSwing]

Posted By BM...

{Ok, here's the point in the simplest terms. Chris O'leary is NOT Steve E, Yeager, or Epstein. No way no how. He doesn't have the experience, background, or expertise to join THAT list, simply by virtue of of the bolded words above............

I would say with reasonable certainty, NO ONE HERE DOES........Including myself......

While Chris HAS spent the last couple of years on a quest to understand, and explain the swing in simple terms, he can not be compared to "the list".}




I think this should be pointed out since it is in the DVD. Chris is sort of putting himself on that list by even mentioning Epstein in his DVD.




Here's the problem...

In the beginning of Chris's DVD he puts "WHY THIS DVD?"

He talks about getting rid of the extension school of thought.... and then goes on and talks about Mike Epstein. these are the points he makes about EPSTEIN......
1. "Epstein's drills make worse"
2. "Epstein ignores adjustability"
3. "Epstein Rearward Tilt is flawed"


I believe this should be pointed out.


I don't think someone with a lemonade stand should market themselves against Orange Julius or Jamba Juice. Or does said lemonade stand think they are selling Jamba Juice??

You put yourself Chris doesn't have the experience, expertise, or bacground to join that list..... those are not my words, I dont have any idea what chris's background is and really dont care.......but why does Epstein even have to be mentioned in his DVD if he is only targeting a certain beginners level audience?

[GetYourBestSwing]

Posted By Ursa Major

{It certainly has fallen out of favor, and in fact many fields have "No Pepper" stenciled on the backstop. Anyone know why? In any case, I thought it was as much to loosen up the fielders as the hitter.}

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am pretty sure the main reason for the "No Pepper" signs is to prevent from killing the grass behind home plate.
Just pointing out to play pepper, or 2 ball, or whatever else in the outfield grass and not unneccesarily kill the grass behind the plate or in front of the dugouts, etc.

[Deemax]

Yea.

But if guys were better hitters 20-30 years ago than todays hitters.... then we should be doing the same things they did in the 70's, giving the same cues, and playing pepper.... also shouldn't be weight training and also shouldn't be trying to sell hitting DVD's.
DVD's weren't around back then.... or are the DVD's out to improve what was taught 20-30 years ago and get away from the cues they used?


Confusing.

One of the main reasons I look at the great hitters of the 60's, 70's, and 80's is because they were not on roids/hgh....IMO. Superior strength and speed can mask some mechanical flaws.

Studying Ted Williams, George Brett, Hank Aaron, ect.... is important to me as a coach and instructor to know how the "mortals" did it. Im not saying todays players dont have great swings, I just prefer to view swings that are not juiced....allegedly

[Chris O'Leary]

What I think many of us forget but Chris seems to understand is that you need to get your head around the whole idea of rotational hitting before you can even worry about drills.When I moved on from the idiocy of linear hitting I'd been taught as a kid, I first needed to understand at a very, basic level why good hitters hit well.

This is very true.

To a big degree, I'm trying to introduce people to some of the terminology that the better teachers use.

That is one of the points of a primer; to list and then define the most important concepts.

It's like how good physics book spend time talking about concepts like inertia and momentum before they get into the more advanced stuff.

I think this kind of a primer is missing, which is why I created it both on my site and in the DVD.

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris, and MANY MANY OTHERS HERE, YOURSELF, MYSELF AND MANY OTHERS INCLUDED, KNOW MORE ABOUT HITTING then most..........

This is exactly what I think.

I bet there are at least 10 guys on this board who could put out very interesting DVDs.

One reason I put mine out was because I wanted to take my knowledge to the next level, and the way to do that is to try to teach it to someone.

That exposes the holes in your knowledge and approach and causes you to get better faster.


Get over it............And quit bringing up the $66 bucks. That's a joke......

People who take the time to produce a DVD should be compensated......PERIOD

Also, I have spent a TREMENDOUS amount of time putting together my web site and all of the frame by frame analyses on it, which I give away for free, and I really don't think it's unreasonable to try to be compensated for some of that effort.

[Chris O'Leary]

Interesting you mention pepper.

Pepper promotes about everything a rotational instructor would not want to see.

But pepper also promotes hand-eye coordination, bat control, and bunting.

I think at a minimum it's a more fun way to work on bunting.

[Chris O'Leary]

Seriously? Anybody who produces a DVD should be compensated? No matter what? This is outside of just the CO conversation. And IMO that is a ridiculous point of view.

It costs north of $3000 to put together even a decent DVD.

That's an investment few people would be willing to make without at least covering their costs.

[Chris O'Leary]

It was brought to my attention that the following post from Chris O'Leary was deleted. Leads one to wonder if there is an alliance between Chris O'Leary & Steve Englishbey.

There isn't.

I haven't talked to Steve in 2 or 3 years.

In fact, I tried to just buy Steve's DVD 2 years ago but couldn't because nobody ever got back to me. When he didn't get back to me, I started studying like crazy to try to catch up and learn what I needed to learn.

I will say that I respect the hell out of Steve and have no problem referring people to him. However, I think his stuff is a bit too complex for people who are just getting started.

I plan to keep referring people to Steve (and Mankin and Nyman) for more advanced stuff and mostly stick to the entry level myself.

[Chris O'Leary]

He is an adult. He calls himself an expert.

I started calling myself an expert when the press started calling me an expert.

Back in July, I help the Cincinnati Enquirer put together an analysis of Ken Griffey Jr.'s swing. In that piece the writer labelled me an hitting expert and I just went with it since I hadn't put the label on myself.

Oh, and I never talked about that piece when it came out because I didn't want to be see to be tooting my own horn.

[omg]

[QUOTE=Ursa Major;1384991]... has fallen out of favor, and in fact many fields have "No Pepper" stenciled on the backstop. Anyone know why? ....QUOTE]

Those "No Pepper" signs are so that the players don't tear up the field in that area. The groundskeepers want players to do it in the outfield.

[Chris O'Leary]

Also, you are not the first to say self-toss,or fungo-hitting is bad. I disagree.It promotes eye-hand coordination and especially the proper line drive path of the swing.

...and bat control and directional hitting.

[Chris O'Leary]

Uh, I think you've been hitting the eggnog a little hard, FFS -- it's making you paranoid. It sounds to me like a healthy recognition by Chris of the limits of his expertise (or at least the limits of his DVD). Because there is congruity and consistency between much of his theories and those of Steve, it makes sense to pass students/viewers up to the next level.

How does this make it an "alliance"? And, if it was, who cares? Are you thinking that Chris' whole DVD scheme is to lure in the unwitting with his DVD, and direct them to Steve before those innocents have a chance to move on to the arch nemesis of the O'Leary/Englishbey cabal -- Mike Epstein?

Also, from a marketing standpoint it makes no sense to directly attack a market. I think the high end of the hitting market is pretty well served.

I see a hole, and an opportunity, at the bottom of the market and that's the group I'm aiming to serve.

[Deemax]

I started calling myself an expert when the press started calling me an expert.

Back in July, I help the Cincinnati Enquirer put together an analysis of Ken Griffey Jr.'s swing. In that piece the writer labelled me an hitting expert and I just went with it since I hadn't put the label on myself.

Oh, and I never talked about that piece when it came out because I didn't want to be see to be tooting my own horn.

Wow. You should stop and listen to yourself. Dang...


Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary
"I started calling myself an expert when the press started calling me an expert.

Back in July, I help the Cincinnati Enquirer put together an analysis of Ken Griffey Jr.'s swing. In that piece the writer labelled me an hitting expert and I just went with it since I hadn't put the label on myself.

Oh, and I never talked about that piece when it came out because I didn't want to be see to be tooting my own horn."

[omg]

I started calling myself an expert when the press started calling me an expert.

Back in July, I help the Cincinnati Enquirer put together an analysis of Ken Griffey Jr.'s swing. In that piece the writer labelled me an hitting expert and I just went with it since I hadn't put the label on myself.

Oh, and I never talked about that piece when it came out because I didn't want to be see to be tooting my own horn.

Hmmm-not your finest bit of reasoning here.

[callyjr]

posted by callyjr
{11 starting SS's or little Johnie's as you call them in the majors right now from the DOMINICAN. you play 8 hours a day 300 plus days a year and your gonna get it at some point. }


I agree. They play all the time and it helps when you are that talented.

What do you think it was like for Manny or Pujols or Renteria, any of the SS's that are starting in the majors the first time they picked up a stick to play stickball..... I'll just tell you this, it wasn't an awkward thing for them swinging a stick. They more they played, obviously the better they got. And how do we know how often Manny or renteria or any of those guys played or what they played anyway? lol

They didn't become what they are from playing stickball all the time..... stickball helped advance their skills..... but it goes far beyond that.



It's stated many times on these boards how former players have a difficult time explaining how they do what they do.... professionals are just different.
I could have played stickball 8 hours a day 300 days per year and it wouldn't have gotten me to the big leagues, just wasn't talented enough.

You can take all the voice lessons and sing your heart out 8 hours a day, doesn't mean you are going to become aretha franklin.


I remember a quote from David Justice one time, He said I was he worst player on my team in LL, I played RF and got my 2 innings and 1 at bat. He ended up having a pretty solid career.

I don't agree that Pujols just had a natural swing, Babe Ruth emulated Shoeless Joe and so on. They all gotta start somewhere. I don't buy that a country of 10 million has all these super athletes. These kids are simply playing more than our kids do and the ones that are a little above average are becoming the super athlete.

[FiveFrameSwing]

In the beginning of Chris's DVD he puts "WHY THIS DVD?"

He talks about getting rid of the extension school of thought.... and then goes on and talks about Mike Epstein. these are the points he makes about EPSTEIN......
1. "Epstein's drills make worse"
2. "Epstein ignores adjustability"
3. "Epstein Rearward Tilt is flawed"



Now the thread where Chris O'Leary started off with "I have been trying to get up to speed on the problems with Epstein's fence drill.", and then deleted 15 of his posts, makes more sense. Also makes it more clear why Chris started the thread "What Mike Epstein Teaches" and then followed up to delete his posts.

[FiveFrameSwing]

One reason I put mine out was because I wanted to take my knowledge to the next level, and the way to do that is to try to teach it to someone.


The way I've done that is by transferring my knowledge to others and having them instruct. I have three high school students that instruct lower level students .... and one of them is even instructing kids their own age.

You are correct .... as you train people to instruct what you promote, you are forced to describe/explain yourself. What I found interesting is that my students will use different words and different cues to get essentially the same result. When I congratulate them on their development of others and ask how they came across modified cues they tell me "well coach, that's what I had to do to get my body to do what you wanted us to do". Hmmm .... sounds to me like my job was partly about the setting of expectations.

[FiveFrameSwing]

There isn't.

I haven't talked to Steve in 2 or 3 years.

In fact, I tried to just buy Steve's DVD 2 years ago but couldn't because nobody ever got back to me. When he didn't get back to me, I started studying like crazy to try to catch up and learn what I needed to learn.

I will say that I respect the hell out of Steve and have no problem referring people to him. However, I think his stuff is a bit too complex for people who are just getting started.

I plan to keep referring people to Steve (and Mankin and Nyman) for more advanced stuff and mostly stick to the entry level myself.


Help me understand why you think Steve's material is too complex given that you don't have his DVDs. What is your basis for that determination?

Personally I don't believe Steve's material holds a candle to Yeager's material ... and I formulate that opinion after having evaluated their material. I don't believe the material that Steve describes is confusing, but IMO his presentations can often be confusing ..... and for that reason alone I don't point people in his direction.

If your interest is in pointing people in the 'right' direction, don't you think you should be fluent with their material? What knowledge do you have about Steve's, Mankin's and Nyman's material that causes you to promote them?

[dominik]

Now the thread where Chris O'Leary started off with "I have been trying to get up to speed on the problems with Epstein's fence drill.", and then deleted 15 of his posts, makes more sense. Also makes it more clear why Chris started the thread "What Mike Epstein Teaches" and then followed up to delete his posts.

I think Chris made pretty clear that he plans to keep out of Epstein discussions because of the massive criticism he faced for it. I think that's why he deleted the posts. To show that he will stay away from that topic.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I think Chris made pretty clear that he plans to keep out of Epstein discussions because of the massive criticism he faced for it. I think that's why he deleted the posts. To show that he will stay away from that topic.

What he did was show the opposite ..... he showed that this is a topic of interest to him and then later, for whatever reason, decided that there was a need to cover his tracks.

[Mark H]

Ursa Major .... in an earlier post you clearly acknowledged extending criticism and in your response above you don't come off as looking especially diplomatic by referring to GetYourBestSwing as GetYourBS. Pretty immature and uncalled for. .

Yeah but funny.

Perhaps you thought you were at the HI message board?.

And that's funny too given the HI board.

You seem to have taken GetYourBestSwing's review of Chris O'Leary's material personally ..... and I'm left wondering if your offense has more to do with the affiliation with Steve Englishbey's material..

If I've ever said anything you found value in, trust me there is no affiliation between the two.


p.s.

Jake ...
I certainly hope this message board is not reverting back to being a biased website. These attacks on GetYourBestSwing seem to have a bias and once again they align with your favorite hitting instructor. I believe we lost several decent contributors this year because of that issue. Let's learn from the experience.

Jake need not apologize to anyone for having an opinion and it's manners and form he lands on, not content.

[Mark H]

11 starting SS's or little Johnie's as you call them in the majors right now from the DOMINICAN. you play 8 hours a day 300 plus days a year and your gonna get it at some point.

Some of them are gonna get it. If you are MLB, you just wait to see who does get it. If you are a dad and your kid is NOT getting it but still has a desire to play, you do what you can.

[Hargrave]

If you are a dad and your kid is NOT getting it but still has a desire to play, you do what you can.

I understand this must be difficult territory.

Everyone reaches a limit, be it age 10, 13, 18, 22 or 41. Everyone eventually is told to take a hike from the game.

Is it wise to always attempt to defy the evidence, to campaign, make extraordinary sacrifices, spend thousands of dollars, untold emotional investment, because a child merely wants to do something he or she isn't particularly adept at doing? Is this the role of adults? To engage minors in their fantasies?

Would it not be wiser to guide a child into some area in which he or she perhaps has native talent and could excel?

Before anyone jumps in, let me say I am not suggesting anyone quit anything at the first sign of failure. I am not saying don't have dreams, goals and aspirations. I am saying choose them correctly. Not everyone can be a ballplayer, or a musician, or a dancer. Teaching children the harsh realities of life is more important than catering to their indulgences.

[omg]

11 starting SS's or little Johnie's as you call them in the majors right now from the DOMINICAN. you play 8 hours a day 300 plus days a year and your gonna get it at some point.

This is the closest idea I've heard to being "The Holy Grail of Hitting":
good genes,good weather, y practica,practica,practica.

[beemax]

First off, Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, and Happy Kwanzaa to all! (hopefully I got all of you on here covered).

Things just settled down here and I almost shot egg nog out my nose when I read this:

I started calling myself an expert when the press started calling me an expert.

This is a very weak and laughable excuse Chris. I hope you can read over this again and realize how ridiculous that sounds.

If the press called you anything else would you have used that as well?

Is the press what you would consider a good testimonial for your work? Are you giving sportswriters lessons and helping them with their game? How about getting some of your players to refer to you as an expert? Could you make that happen?

Back in July, I help the Cincinnati Enquirer put together an analysis of Ken Griffey Jr.'s swing. In that piece the writer labelled me an hitting expert and I just went with it since I hadn't put the label on myself.

Funny how you fail to point that out on your website. Care to add a footnote to explain to those who read over it? Do you think the casual parent or player would know that if they came across your site? IMO you know the answer to that last question is a 'no'.

Oh, and I never talked about that piece when it came out because I didn't want to be see to be tooting my own horn.

Ah yes, referring to yourself as an expert on your own website isn't tooting your own horn at all. Kudos to you for being so modest.

[beemax]

It costs north of $3000 to put together even a decent DVD.

That's an investment few people would be willing to make without at least covering their costs.

Again, kudos to you for taking the time and spending the money to put together a DVD. I won't knock you for that.

That being said, I would hope that when you made the decision to make a DVD that you felt confident you could at least break even when it comes to money.

Additionally I would hope that you wouldn't expect people to buy the DVD just for you to cover your costs.

I know you and BM haven't stated it verbatim and things can get lost in translation on here but it seems to me that you expect people to pay out $66
if not for instruction than out of pity. I'm probably wrong here but that is how I am reading it.

Again, you took the time and put in the work to make the DVD. Kudos. You should also expect people to take a critical look at it, no matter your background, because of the investment that they would need to make to own it and the claims that you make about yourself.

[Mark H]

I understand this must be difficult territory.

Everyone reaches a limit, be it age 10, 13, 18, 22 or 41. Everyone eventually is told to take a hike from the game.

Is it wise to always attempt to defy the evidence, to campaign, make extraordinary sacrifices, spend thousands of dollars, untold emotional investment, because a child merely wants to do something he or she isn't particularly adept at doing? Is this the role of adults? To engage minors in their fantasies?

Would it not be wiser to guide a child into some area in which he or she perhaps has native talent and could excel?

Before anyone jumps in, let me say I am not suggesting anyone quit anything at the first sign of failure. I am not saying don't have dreams, goals and aspirations. I am saying choose them correctly. Not everyone can be a ballplayer, or a musician, or a dancer. Teaching children the harsh realities of life is more important than catering to their indulgences.

It's a case by case decision. It's a game where skill makes more difference than athleticism. A little help along with a lot of hard work can delay that day your kid's name is not on the roster. I've gotten much pleasure from seeing kids with limited athleticism succeed beyond their expectations because they learned some things about swinging a bat.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake ...
I certainly hope this message board is not reverting back to being a biased website. These attacks on GetYourBestSwing seem to have a bias and once again they align with your favorite hitting instructor. I believe we lost several decent contributors this year because of that issue. Let's learn from the experience. I am doing nothing to influence who posts and who does not. I welcome Mikeand Chris to post here. As for my favorite hitting instructor - he's a guy name Andy.

[joof]

Expert
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


An "expert" (Audio (US) (help·info)) is someone widely recognized as a reliable source of technique or skill whose faculty for judging or deciding rightly, justly, or wisely is accorded authority and status by their peers or the public in a specific well distinguished domain. An expert, more generally, is a person with extensive knowledge or ability in a particular area of study. Experts are called in for advice on their respective subject, but they do not always agree on the particulars of a field of study. An expert can be, by virtue of training, education, profession, publication or experience, believed to have special knowledge of a subject beyond that of the average person, sufficient that others may officially (and legally) rely upon the individual's opinion. Historically, an expert was referred to as a sage. The individual was usually a profound philosopher distinguished for wisdom and sound judgment.


joof

[tadlock11]

.... as you train people to instruct what you promote, you are forced to describe/explain yourself. What I found interesting is that my students will use different words and different cues to get essentially the same result. When I congratulate them on their development of others and ask how they came across modified cues they tell me "well coach, that's what I had to do to get my body to do what you wanted us to do".

This has been my experience as well. Telling one kid to "squish the bug" and proceeds to do it as a result of other body parts working properly (good core rotation and momentum transfer). The kid standing outside the cage listenening, just heard the cue but goes about using it in its worst form (internal rotation of the back foot/leg only).
IMO, this is where a forum like this can be dangerous in describing things. I've sat and read two people describing the same thing in virtual different languages and it turns into your classic pi$$ing match.
While I have no ground to judge Chris's video content and value, I can see where there may be a need to create a video if you feel you can get across to a specific audience through not only words but demonstrations.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Coach Turtle says:

"Pivot that back foot as fast as you can because it WILL turn the hips......"



I reviewed Rudy Jaramillo's DVD today and noted that Rudy also described a back foot pivot action at the point where Yeager describes a "shift".

On the topic of "Weight Shift & Weight Transfer" he states the following


Short and compact weight shift.
Literally have to go forward a little bit as rotating.
Get in a hitting position, separate (and by this he means that the hands move back as the front foot reaches forward), and from here you want to be short & quick to the ball as you transfer - all you want to do with the back-side [pointing at his back leg] is pivot and feel the weight on the instep.

[Chris O'Leary]

Now the thread where Chris O'Leary started off with "I have been trying to get up to speed on the problems with Epstein's fence drill.", and then deleted 15 of his posts, makes more sense. Also makes it more clear why Chris started the thread "What Mike Epstein Teaches" and then followed up to delete his posts.

While I have problems with what Epstein teaches, and how it compares (or doesn't) to what the best hitters actually do, those threads devolved into back and forths over my perceived attacks on Epstein, which wasn't the point.

[Chris O'Leary]

Help me understand why you think Steve's material is too complex given that you don't have his DVDs. What is your basis for that determination?

I have seen 5 minutes of one of his DVDs and everyone I have talked to says Steve's stuff is too complex.


Personally I don't believe Steve's material holds a candle to Yeager's material ... and I formulate that opinion after having evaluated their material. I don't believe the material that Steve describes is confusing, but IMO his presentations can often be confusing ..... and for that reason alone I don't point people in his direction.

I think the material is potentially confusing, and Steve tends to present it in a fairly low-level manner.


If your interest is in pointing people in the 'right' direction, don't you think you should be fluent with their material? What knowledge do you have about Steve's, Mankin's and Nyman's material that causes you to promote them?

As I said, I tried to buy Steve's stuff a couple of years ago but he never got back to me. However, most of what I have heard about the content is good (even if the presentation isn't optimal).

[Chris O'Leary]

What he did was show the opposite ..... he showed that this is a topic of interest to him and then later, for whatever reason, decided that there was a need to cover his tracks.

No, it was of interest to me but my questions were perceived and spun as attacks.

[Chris O'Leary]

Are you giving sportswriters lessons and helping them with their game?

No, but some of the top guys communicate with me for my opinion on guys (mostly pitchers).


How about getting some of your players to refer to you as an expert? Could you make that happen?

I'm working on that.


Funny how you fail to point that out on your website. Care to add a footnote to explain to those who read over it? Do you think the casual parent or player would know that if they came across your site? IMO you know the answer to that last question is a 'no'.

Ah yes, referring to yourself as an expert on your own website isn't tooting your own horn at all. Kudos to you for being so modest.

I know it drives you crazy but I simply don't care.

[jima]

Please guys, let Chris continue on his "noble quest". But for Dad's out there lurking, don't spend the $60. Your money would be better spent buying lemonade on BM's street and while your there asking BM for free advice. Even though BM likes to give Chris a free pass, his body of work here at BBF far surpasses anything that Chris has done.

[beemax]

Pepper shouldn't be promoted to teach someone how to swing.

You want to play pepper to warm up or get loose with timing, I dont even know, those are the only things I can see would be of any benefit... other than just being one of those little games you can have fun with to kill time.

I understand your point in not using pepper to teach the swing, but I will advocate it for any player before a game.

I had never played much pepper until my first spring training when my manager, Tommy Herr, encouraged us to play pepper before games. I saw my production increase dramatically thereafter.

Now I am not going to attribute all of my success or failure to hitting pepper or not hitting pepper. But IMO, it definitely had a positive effect on my hitting.

It is definitely not about getting your mechanics down, but I look at it as a great warmup for your hand-eye coordination during pre-game. Not only does it help the hitter get better feel of the ball and the barrel right before a game but it also helps infielders and creates a nice, loose atmosphere.

I am not saying that you should go to a batting cage and play pepper as opposed to hitting soft-toss or live bp, but IMO it is one of the best ways to prepare for a game just before it starts. It is all about getting a feel for the bat and ball and finding ways to stay loose.

I would encourage any player or coach to try it out.

[beemax]

No, but some of the top guys communicate with me for my opinion on guys (mostly pitchers).

So are you saying that some of the top sportswriters in America ask you for your opinions on pitchers? Or some of the top sportswriters at the Cincinnati Enquirer? Or something else? Can you clarify please?


Chris, I understand that you are working on testimonials, but don't you think after all the time you have spent working with these people (for free if I am not mistaken) that one might have given you one by now?


I know it drives you crazy but I simply don't care.

Chris, I would have no problem if you would be upfront about things. When you try to spin something that IMO you shouldn't is when you get yourself into trouble. Take it for what it's worth, and if you don't care IMO it will only hurt you and set you up for more of this criticism.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Chris, I understand that you are working on testimonials, but don't you think after all the time you have spent working with these people (for free if I am not mistaken) that one might have given you one by now?


Personally I'm not impressed by a list of testimonials, as I can point to individuals that have compiled such a list that I wouldn't send my kid to.

Chris O'Leary Testimonials (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Testimonials.html)

[beemax]

Personally I'm not impressed by a list of testimonials, as I can point to individuals that have compiled such a list that I wouldn't send my kid to.

Chris O'Leary Testimonials (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Testimonials.html)

Its not about being impressed, but it always says something if a guy will put his name behind yours.

Do you see any names on Chris' testimonial page?

[FiveFrameSwing]

Good point .... I don't see any names.

The reason I'm not impressed by long lists of testimonials is because when I spoke with some of the D1 coaches on a particular testimonial list I learned that they didn't really support the individual to the extent that I was expecting, but gave a polite node because they didn't think it would do any harm ... and while they liked the guy personally, they didn't actually use the guys methods.

In this case I believe your point is that you can't even seek verification.

[bronxkid]

Coach Cohens find your brest swing Drills DVD and Rudy Jaramillo's DVD.

60.00 bucks for both and you will not regret it! :applaud:

[Chris O'Leary]

So are you saying that some of the top sportswriters in America ask you for your opinions on pitchers? Or some of the top sportswriters at the Cincinnati Enquirer? Or something else? Can you clarify please?

Some of the top baseball people in America.

I'll forward you an e-mail, under our usual understanding that you not disclose who it is.


Chris, I understand that you are working on testimonials, but don't you think after all the time you have spent working with these people (for free if I am not mistaken) that one might have given you one by now?

As I'm sure you know, while it's OK for A-Rod or Pujols to go to whomever they want for hitting help, it's not acceptable for minor leaguers to go outside the organization for advice.

[Chris O'Leary]

I don't give the names of most of my testifiers simply because I am controversial and there are multiple people out there who dislike me passionately and love to attack me.

I simply don't want to drag my testifiers into that whole mess (as has happened before).

[beemax]

Some of the top baseball people in America.

I'll forward you an e-mail, under our usual understanding that you not disclose who it is.

That's fine, yet I would not even come close to considering the name you sent me as one of the 'top baseball people in America,' but that is your opinion.

A writer who has never played the game before and is not involved with an organization is simply a writer. He may be read by a lot of people but he is still just a sportswriter.

When I think of the top baseball people in America I think of those involved in making the decisions or plays on a day to day basis and those who have proven that they have the knowledge and feel to do it well.

As I'm sure you know, while it's OK for A-Rod or Pujols to go to whomever they want for hitting help, it's not acceptable for minor leaguers to go outside the organization for advice.

Sure it is, as I'm sure you do not know based on the above quote. I know numerous guys in pro ball who have done it. As a minor leaguer you are not a big enough fish for them to care what you do in the offseason, as long as you didn't get hurt. Come to spring training in shape and listen to what they say and they do not care.

[beemax]

I don't give the names of most of my testifiers simply because I am controversial and there are multiple people out there who dislike me passionately and love to attack me.

I simply don't want to drag my testifiers into that whole mess (as has happened before).

:laugh

Just to clarify, you give zero names of your testifiers on your site. Not 'I don't give the names of most of my testifiers,' but zero.

So then why are you working on getting testimonials from your 'players' like you said a couple posts ago? What is the point of showing a testimonial if you don't have a name?

Do you see how simple it looks from the outside to forge whatever testimonial you want because you do not disclose names? I believe you don't, but again, what weight does an anonymous testimonial hold?

Like I said to FFS last night, testimonials are not the be all and end all, but they are a nice touch and give the reader/researcher of a site someone who is willing to put their name behind you. It gives you credibility.

IMO you are not important enough to be controversial. None of us on here are.

[GetYourBestSwing]

I am clearly aware that PEPPER can help with hand-eye coordination, warming up before a game.

You just can not claim that hitters were better 20 or 30 years ago and one of the reasons was because of PEPPER.

that was my reason for even responding to anything about PEPPER.

Because they played A LOT of PEPPER in the 70's or whenever, that has nothing do to do with them being better hitters than todays hitters.... which is a flimsy opinion in itself.

[Chris O'Leary]

I am clearly aware that PEPPER can help with hand-eye coordination, warming up before a game.

You just can not claim that hitters were better 20 or 30 years ago and one of the reasons was because of PEPPER.

I would argue that they were better bunters, and that has something to do with pepper.

Also, pepper was more a thing of the 50s and 60s.

[GetYourBestSwing]

I would argue that they were better bunters, and that has something to do with pepper.

Also, pepper was more a thing of the 50s and 60s.



I couldn't care less if they were better bunters because of Pepper....... that wasnt the point of the conversation. lol

thanks for the history lesson on Pepper as well... lol.... I played it all the dang time in high school, in the mid 90's, and hated it. We did it because our coach didn't know anything about teaching the game itself, he was a master motivator, but had zero idea how to teach hitting.


I'll just tell ya this... I PRAY the teams we play in our league are doing Pepper and Self-Toss during their practices to get better at hitting..... god I hope they are!!!

[handyman11]

I used to love pepper way back when .......tried to play it with the girls I coached in fastpitch recently , and they thought I was nuts .....

Not sure when the pros stopped playing it ....but I did have a chance back in the mid 70's to spend some time with the Astro players in Houston , and watch some pre game rituals ...and the only players I ever saw playing pepper back then were the pitchers , and they made a mockery of it !

[Ursa Major]

FiveFrameSwing said: "Ursa Major .... in an earlier post you clearly acknowledged extending criticism and in your response above you don't come off as looking especially diplomatic by referring to GetYourBestSwing as GetYourBS. Pretty immature and uncalled for."C'mon, guy, I'm just having a bit of fun with his screen name; I woulda jumped at the comedic opportunity that the name presented regardless of my feelings about the name's owner. Maybe I shoulda put a couple more :D :D :D 's up.
FiveFrameSwing said: "As for GetYourBestSwing's desire for more drills ... he is the consumer and he's welcome to shop for what he desires." Absolutely. And I tried to make the point that he was apparently on the right track by trying to compare what the website said to what the DVD actually offered. But he went beyond that and started attacking the DVD as some kind of failure because he assumed that it had higher level drills than it did -- when he could have avoided any unfounded assumptions by checking with Chris, who is -- needless to say -- quite accessible.

I made it clear in many of my posts that I felt that it seemed that GYBS had a lot to offer here, but the value of his message was being lost in veering off into unsupportable shots at Chris by criticizing Chris for putting out any DVD at all; what made it unsupportable is that his entire argument was premised on the mistaken assumption that Chris intended the DVD for a high level crowd. Also, I felt that GYBS was being less than intellectually dishonest, in making changes to his points to avoid "losing" arguments. Yet, he couldn't even address why it was necessary for Chris to have the "credentials" of one of the gurus when he wasn't purporting to introduce new or otherwise unproven coaching theories.

I think it's fair to point out to someone who's essentially a newcomer to the site (he had a few posts last year, but essentially starting posting maniacally just last month) where, IMHO, his otherwise intelligent posts have features that detract from the value of his message or the credibility of his opinions. I don't purport to have the high level hitting experience of many of the people here (I've coached youth ball for seven years after a successful youth career that topped out in middle school), but logic, analysis and word crafting are my professional tools, so I try to contribute that part of my skill set to that web site.

I've kept my level of criticism of GYBS (and others) commensurate with the degree of self-confidence and self-importance that they exhibit on the site. GYBS seemed open to a little wordplay, and I note that he did say, "I don't feel I have been attacked." But, I will apologize to him for not making it clear that I was in a teasing mood. Why you feel a need to play gotcha and defend him rather than Chris seems to reflect at least as much a feeling you're on the other side of some divide with Chris and others as it does a genuine feeling that GYBS was truly "attacked" more than Chris.

FiveFrameSwing said: "You seem to have taken GetYourBestSwing's review of Chris O'Leary's material personally ..... and I'm left wondering if your offense has more to do with the affiliation with Steve Englishbey's material. . . . The majority of those attacking GetYourBestSwing appear to be from the Englishbey camp. No egg nog .... just calling it as I see it." I only took umbrage (and not personal umbrage) at his unfair attacks, which I delineated. I've never really considered whether Chris is more affiliated with Steve E. than with any other camp -- my sense is that Chris is more fixated with the mechanics of pitching than hitting. Somehow Chris and I never got invited to the secret Friends of Steve meetings.

I'm not sure the math works in saying that "the majority of those attacking GetYourBestSwing appear to be from the Englishbey camp". Since you and others have accused Jake of running a secret society devoted to the Englishbey philosophy and that everyone here is in the tank for Steve, than it would make sense that anyone commenting here on anything would be "from the Englishbey camp."

My defenses of Chris have absolutely nothing to do with Steve Englishbey, and I had no reason to suppose that Chris' DVD is specific enough to be considered more supportive of Steve's philosophies than others. Heck, those defenses really don't have anything to do with my connection to Chris other than I think it's poor form to attack someone who's given as much as Chris has to this site for simply by trying to pull together on his own what might be a pretty good (but perhaps amateurishly produced) primer on rotational hitting. In fact, Chris is not a friend of mine, and, until this little storm blew up, I think the only time we've PM'd each other was to talk about a video camera recommendation. But, I respect him mightily for keeping his cool and actually learning from the comments -- unfair or otherwise -- made in this thread.

What I do find curious is that you have somehow found it desirable to try to drag an "Englishbey Gang" conspiracy theory into this thread, and then complain to Jake that somehow "attacks" on GYBS (which GYBS doesn't even consider to be attacks) might tear the Board apart. C'mon, fella, we're just talking about one guy's homemade DVD here, and nothing beyond that. In the words of Freud, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

Why do you want to create a schism in Amerca's foremost baseball discussion web site? Is it because you hate America?? [[JUST KIDDING, FiveFrame! :waving]]

[Chris O'Leary]

I've never really considered whether Chris is more affiliated with Steve E. than with any other camp -- my sense is that Chris is more fixated with the mechanics of pitching than hitting. Somehow Chris and I never got invited to the secret Friends of Steve meetings.

Again, I'm not in any camp.

What I am trying to do is the best possible job of communicating what major leaguers actually do, and if Steve and I happen to say the same things then that's because we happen to see the same things.

People are mistaking convergent evolution and similar interpretations for collusion.

[BallCoach06]

I remember a quote from David Justice one time, He said I was he worst player on my team in LL, I played RF and got my 2 innings and 1 at bat. He ended up having a pretty solid career.

I don't agree that Pujols just had a natural swing, Babe Ruth emulated Shoeless Joe and so on. They all gotta start somewhere. I don't buy that a country of 10 million has all these super athletes. These kids are simply playing more than our kids do and the ones that are a little above average are becoming the super athlete.

I agree. Often times those players continue doing it at the professional levels. A lot of guys will play their pro season and then go back to the Dominican, Venezuela, Puerto Rico, etc., and play 60-75 more games in the winter leagues.

[Chris O'Leary]

They all gotta start somewhere. I don't buy that a country of 10 million has all these super athletes. These kids are simply playing more than our kids do and the ones that are a little above average are becoming the super athlete.

I would argue that one thing that contributes to their success, more than just greater playing time, is a LACK of instruction (and in particular poor instruction). I would argue that 80 to 90 percent of instructors are hurting their students more than they are helping (e.g. via linear and extension garbage).

It may just be that fewer kids from the DR and elsewhere are having their swings ruined by well-intentioned but ill-informed instructors, coaches, and parents.

Instead, they just do what works and, in many cases, it works.

That's something every instructor needs to keep in mind.

[BoardMember]

........ - all you want to do with the back-side [pointing at his back leg] is pivot and feel the weight on the instep.

This is a vastly different description you are trying to meld........

Unfortunately, coach Turtle was vigorously "spinning" his back knee to the pitcher, claiming that this "pivot" (spinning) was responsible for quick turn of the hips. He did it several times, claiming it made the hips fast.

Classic "squish the bug" mentality..........

Not very impressive from a "well respected" hitting coach at the upper levels........

This is exactly what Chris refers to regarding "bad information from good coaches" with regard to how the swing actually works...........

[Ursa Major]

Quote:Originally Posted by callyjr
They all gotta start somewhere. I don't buy that a country of 10 million has all these super athletes. These kids are simply playing more than our kids do and the ones that are a little above average are becoming the super athlete. ChrisO replied:
I would argue that one thing that contributes to their success, more than just greater playing time, is a LACK of instruction (and in particular poor instruction). I would argue that 80 to 90 percent of instructors are hurting their students more than they are helping (e.g. via linear and extension garbage).It's very simple. If we want our kids to have a chance to play in the big leagues in a pro rata proportion of the population of the US to that of Latin American/Caribbean kids, there's only one answer -- we've got to ship millions of XBox360's and big screen TV's to those countries, and get their kids hooked on video games.

You can say that we parents here need to get our kids to turn off the video games, and we do, but then the kids stare at us .... and so you're left with being the obsessive Dad who says, "I don't care if your homework's done, you've got to go out and take BP instead of looking at the screen." Out of a fit of pique, the kid is as likely to respond, "Okay, I'll just read a book instead." How do you punish them for that?

[mudvnine]

It's very simple. If we want our kids to have a chance to play in the big leagues in a pro rata proportion of the population of the US to that of Latin American/Caribbean kids, there's only one answer -- we've got to ship millions of XBox360's and big screen TV's to those countries, and get their kids hooked on video games.

You can say that we parents here need to get our kids to turn off the video games, and we do, but then the kids stare at us .... and so you're left with being the obsessive Dad who says, "I don't care if your homework's done, you've got to go out and take BP instead of looking at the screen." Out of a fit of pique, the kid is as likely to respond, "Okay, I'll just read a book instead." How do you punish them for that?

Ursa, I had to laugh at this because I've even caught myself hollerin' upstairs to my 13 y/o, "Hey, come down and watch TV or something . . . just get off that XBox!".

Pretty pathetic when I resort to that when a few years back it was shutoff the TV and go outside. Unfortunately, we live in So Cal and the demographics in our neighborhood have changed so much that my son's friends are the guys he plays with on our TB team and none of them live on our area. The kids in our area are musicians, math wizards, and the stay in to house and do whatever type of kids. No more pick-up football, baseball, or basketball games in our area anymore . . . heck, I don't even see the kids just "hanging out" anymore.

Pretty sad scenario of what is available to our kids nowadays, at least in our area. :cry:

[GetYourBestSwing]

I would argue that one thing that contributes to their success, more than just greater playing time, is a LACK of instruction (and in particular poor instruction). I would argue that 80 to 90 percent of instructors are hurting their students more than they are helping (e.g. via linear and extension garbage).

It may just be that fewer kids from the DR and elsewhere are having their swings ruined by well-intentioned but ill-informed instructors, coaches, and parents.

Instead, they just do what works and, in many cases, it works.

That's something every instructor needs to keep in mind.


Many of the Latin players would say otherwise.

The latin boom is directly because of the academies major league baseball has made available to these players. 1987 was the first time a major league team built an academy over there and now I would guess every team has the same thing.

Obviously makes exposure to these players better, thats the main thing.... but now the players that are recognized as the more talented are being trained and taught the game at these academies.

23% of major league players are latin players.... and that number is going to keep rising. Many of the players now have been trained by an organizational academy.

[HYP]

Again, I'm not in any camp.

What I am trying to do is the best possible job of communicating what major leaguers actually do, and if Steve and I happen to say the same things then that's because we happen to see the same things.

People are mistaking convergent evolution and similar interpretations for collusion.

Do you mean what your opinion of what they actually do?

[dominik]

I would argue that one thing that contributes to their success, more than just greater playing time, is a LACK of instruction (and in particular poor instruction). I would argue that 80 to 90 percent of instructors are hurting their students more than they are helping (e.g. via linear and extension garbage).

It may just be that fewer kids from the DR and elsewhere are having their swings ruined by well-intentioned but ill-informed instructors, coaches, and parents.

Instead, they just do what works and, in many cases, it works.

That's something every instructor needs to keep in mind.

May be this is true. One of the rotational guys(epstein?) mentiones that most kids naturally use a rotational swing and that instructors kill it with using some of the linear cues enforcing an unnatural swing.

He further said, that earlier players learned to hit by emulating their idols and didn't need swing coaches.

[Chris O'Leary]

May be this is true. One of the rotational guys(epstein?) mentiones that most kids naturally use a rotational swing and that instructors kill it with using some of the linear cues enforcing an unnatural swing.

He further said, that earlier players learned to hit by emulating their idols and didn't need swing coaches.

This is absolutely my experience when working with young hitters.

Probably 80 to 90 percent have decent swings (with bat drag being a given), meaning that they don't do the stupid linear or extension things.

[alpo]

It's very simple. If we want our kids to have a chance to play in the big leagues in a pro rata proportion of the population of the US to that of Latin American/Caribbean kids, there's only one answer -- we've got to ship millions of XBox360's and big screen TV's to those countries, and get their kids hooked on video games.

You can say that we parents here need to get our kids to turn off the video games, and we do, but then the kids stare at us .... and so you're left with being the obsessive Dad who says, "I don't care if your homework's done, you've got to go out and take BP instead of looking at the screen." Out of a fit of pique, the kid is as likely to respond, "Okay, I'll just read a book instead." How do you punish them for that?

:laugh

Oh man. Been there...:crazy

[crazyhawk]

Chris, your last post you stated that 80-90 percent of the young kids you work with have good swings (minus the bat drag) until they get bad coaching. Come on. I coach little kids 5-9 years old and the majority don't even know the correct set up, stance, grip, posture, etc. They didn't get a bad swing by bad linear cues..they got a bad swing because they are learning, young, and using what feels natural (their arms to swing instead of their lower half.) It is silly to act like kids have wonderful swings until those pesky bad linear instructors ruin them. Out of a team of 12 kids last year for 6 year olds, I would say 2 knew how to swing anywhere close to functionally. They both had dads who knew enough about the swing to start them on the path to a nice swing. Your comment just doesn't fly in my opinion.

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris, your last post you stated that 80-90 percent of the young kids you work with have good swings (minus the bat drag) until they get bad coaching. Come on. I coach little kids 5-9 years old and the majority don't even know the correct set up, stance, grip, posture, etc. They didn't get a bad swing by bad linear cues..they got a bad swing because they are learning, young, and using what feels natural (their arms to swing instead of their lower half.) It is silly to act like kids have wonderful swings until those pesky bad linear instructors ruin them. Out of a team of 12 kids last year for 6 year olds, I would say 2 knew how to swing anywhere close to functionally. They both had dads who knew enough about the swing to start them on the path to a nice swing. Your comment just doesn't fly in my opinion.

Yes, you have to do a bit to get them on the right path (e.g. posture) but in my experience most ordinary kids can develop a pretty good swing in a fairly short period of time.

And it happens all the time in my experience that kids of mine will go to instructors who teach them hands to the ball, power v at the point of contact, and similar garbage.

[GetYourBestSwing]

I have extremely odd hours and terrible sleeping habits, I think I enjoy the pains of sleep deprivation.... so I read a lot of threads on this site going back 4, 5, 6 months last night. I had been a member that whole time, but only lurked and clicked on a thread topic that caught my eye.

But, I learned reading all those threads and different posts by the same people contributing in this thread..... why those that are so defensive towards Chris are that way.

I understand now why I should have understood the intent of the DVD, who it is targeted towards, that all makes perfectly clear sense to me now. He's just a guy with a real passion that has been on a process of learning just like we all should be.

Hope to get to know some of you guys even better.... be fun to get to know a group of guys with a shared interest.

Seems there is too many egos flying around however to get to know each other before being intensely critical first though. lol

[Mark H]

I agree with your assessment of Chris. As to the egos, I'm fine with everyone except the two that have been kicked off. Tends to make me react poorly to their disciples as well. I'm satisified Yeager's people and Epstein's people are genuinely seeking rational truth. HI people may be too but they are influenced by someone who is, IMO, not. OTOH, Boardmember has shown how to deal with it much better than I. I probably need to excuse myself as much as possible as I remember the stench that is Richard too well.

[wogdoggy]

It's very simple. If we want our kids to have a chance to play in the big leagues in a pro rata proportion of the population of the US to that of Latin American/Caribbean kids, there's only one answer -- we've got to ship millions of XBox360's and big screen TV's to those countries, and get their kids hooked on video games.

You can say that we parents here need to get our kids to turn off the video games, and we do, but then the kids stare at us .... and so you're left with being the obsessive Dad who says, "I don't care if your homework's done, you've got to go out and take BP instead of looking at the screen." Out of a fit of pique, the kid is as likely to respond, "Okay, I'll just read a book instead." How do you punish them for that?

they have no money and the only hope of getting off the island is thru baseball..PLUS..baseball organizations can probably get dominican talent for pennies on the dollar,,IF they can verify a legit birth certificate..lol

[Jake Patterson]

I have extremely odd hours and terrible sleeping habits, I think I enjoy the pains of sleep deprivation.... so I read a lot of threads on this site going back 4, 5, 6 months last night. I had been a member that whole time, but only lurked and clicked on a thread topic that caught my eye.

But, I learned reading all those threads and different posts by the same people contributing in this thread..... why those that are so defensive towards Chris are that way.

I understand now why I should have understood the intent of the DVD, who it is targeted towards, that all makes perfectly clear sense to me now. He's just a guy with a real passion that has been on a process of learning just like we all should be.

Hope to get to know some of you guys even better.... be fun to get to know a group of guys with a shared interest.

Seems there is too many egos flying around however to get to know each other before being intensely critical first though. lol
Thanks for the work. There is a great deal of history many do not recognize.

[GetYourBestSwing]

Thanks for the work. There is a great deal of history many do not recognize.

That is what I clearly recognized.

I think any newcomer should go through older posts.

Sheds a whole new light on a lot of things.... also, some of it makes the Dallas Cowboys drama filled locker room the media loves to portray look like a monestary. lol