Also-Ran Pitchers, poll 2-F

[Paul Wendt]

Also-Ran Pitchers covers the losers in phase one of "Top 100 Pitchers". Here we are selecting the best of those also-rans in a series of polls something like the hundred pitchers polls. Please use the same criteria you do use or would use for the hundred pitchers.

That is the project or game. Frankly, my main purpose is to try out and demonstrate a system for projects like this. There will not be much discussion of the method initially but the pace will be faster than it would if ranking the also-rans were important. I will post polls without deadlines but the leaders might advance any time after 48 hours and ten votes.

:debate:
This poll 2-F matches the winners of 1-I with the remaining field from 2-E and 2-B. This is the second, third, or fourth "Also-Ran" poll for the candidates, depending on their origin, and the winners must contend again for high rungs on the ladder.

add:
Bold marks the eight winners, eight! because we have no crucial ties. (more information below (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1405440&postcount=8))
The poll remains open.

The ballot lists candidates and their major league debut years in alphabetical order.
Here they are in chronological order.
UPPERCASE names identify mainly-relief pitchers and UPPERCASE surnames identify intermediate careers.
'DT' and the player name are linked to player pages at BaseballProspectus and Baseball-Reference.

DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/leevesa01.php) : Sam Leever (http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/leevesa01.shtml), debut 1898
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/coombja01.php) : Jack Coombs (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/coombja01.shtml), 1906
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/newsobo01.php) : Bobo Newsom (http://www.baseball-reference.com/n/newsobo01.shtml), 1929
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/passecl01.php) : Claude Passeau (http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/passecl01.shtml), 1935
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/coopemo01.php) : Mort Cooper (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/coopemo01.shtml), 1938
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/blackew01.php) : Ewell Blackwell (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/blackew01.shtml), 1942
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/parneme01.php) : Mel Parnell (http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/parneme01.shtml), 1947
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/simmocu01.php) : Curt Simmons (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/simmocu01.shtml), 1947
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/garcimi01.php) : Mike Garcia (http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/garcimi01.shtml), 1948
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/frienbo01.php) : Bob Friend (http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/frienbo01.shtml), 1951
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/jacksla01.php) : Larry Jackson (http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jacksla01.shtml), 1955
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/mcdanli01.php) : Lindy MCDANIEL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mcdanli01.shtml), 1955
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/mcdowsa01.php) : Sam McDowell (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mcdowsa01.shtml), 1961
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/carrocl02.php) : CLAY CARROLL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/carrocl02.shtml), 1964
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/dierkla01.php) : Larry Dierker (http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/dierkla01.shtml), 1964
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/niekrjo01.php) : Joe Niekro (http://www.baseball-reference.com/n/niekrjo01.shtml), 1967
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/messean01.php) : Andy Messersmith (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/messean01.shtml), 1968
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/forscbo01.php) : Bob Forsch (http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/forscbo01.shtml), 1974
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/tekulke01.php) : KENT TEKULVE (http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/tekulke01.shtml), 1974
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/sutclri01.php) : Rick Sutcliffe (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sutclri01.shtml), 1976
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/sotoma01.php) : Mario Soto (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sotoma01.shtml), 1977
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/stewada01.php) : Dave Stewart (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/stewada01.shtml), 1978
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/fernasi01.php) : Sid Fernandez (http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/fernasi01.shtml), 1983
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/langsma01.php) : Mark Langston (http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/langsma01.shtml), 1984
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/gordoto01.php) : Tom GORDON (http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gordoto01.shtml), 1988
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/hamptmi01.php) : Mike Hampton (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hamptmi01.shtml), 1993
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/garcifr02.php) : Freddy Garcia (http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/garcifr02.shtml), 1999

Vote for 8 of 27

Eight winners will advance, or 5 to 8 in case of ties.

[Paul Wendt]

Stage One is complete. See below.

Stage Two - various, featuring leaders from stage one, A to I, and a second dip from A to H

poll 2-A (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83908) - open but leaders have advanced to 3-A; others have continued in stage two (B E F)
poll 2-B (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84369) - open but leaders have advanced to 3-B; others have continued in stage two (E F)
poll 2-C (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84603) - open but leaders have advanced to poll 2-E
poll 2-D (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85266) - poll open, 12-03
poll 2-E (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85308) - open but leaders have advanced to 3-C; others have continued in stage two (F)
poll 2-F (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85799) - poll open, 12-24 (You are here.)


Stage Three, runging the ladder in threes

poll 3-A (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84285) - open but leaders have been rung and the rest have continued in poll 3-B
poll 3-B (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84862) - open but leaders have been rung and the rest have continued in poll 3-C
poll 3-C (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85796) - poll open, 12-21


Stage One, a first pass through all the also-rans from "Top 100 Pitchers" phase one,
nine rounds

poll 1-A (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83799) - still open but leaders* have advanced to poll 2-A
poll 1-B (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83842) - still open but leaders* have advanced to poll 2-A
poll 1-C (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83841) - still open but leaders* have advanced to poll 2-A
poll 1-D (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83898) - still open but leaders* have advanced to poll 2-B
poll 1-E (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84027) - still open but leaders* have advanced to poll 2-C
poll 1-F (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84152) - still open but leaders* have advanced to poll 2-C
poll 1-G (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84177) - still open but leaders* have advanced to poll 2-C
poll 1-H (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84322) - still open but leaders* have advanced to poll 2-C
poll 1- I (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85238) - still open but leaders have advanced to poll 2-F

[Paul Wendt]

Tom Gordon is a wild card for me here. Probably he has finally called it quits after working parts of 21 seaons in the majors. ("parts of 21" including only part of 2008 with the Phillies. Do they give him a ring for that? any $hare?)

Occasionally Tom Gordon's curve was named the best in the business; in that he was a successor to Bert Blyleven. More often than not he worked out of the bullpen. It all adds up to 2106 innings in 21 years or 100 ip/season.

In his twenties, 1988-1997, he worked 1548 inns at ERA+ 107. Along the way he started 203 games and relieved 147. Next year Boston made him a full-timer in the bullpen: 73 games, 79 inns, 46 saves, ERA+ 173. In ten more seasons, however, 464 games, 479 inns, 98 saves, 41-35 w-l.


Relief Games per Start --technically, pitcher [ G - GS ] / [1 + GS]

1050 TEKULVE (1050 relief games, zero starts)

------ ------ ------ below, presumably more than 10% of innings as a starting pitcher

24.24 CARROLL (703 gR, 28 gS)

12.17 MCDANIEL (913 gR, 74 gS)

2.970 Gordon T (684 gR, 203 gS) - time out! to check the arithmetic

0.521 Garcia M
0.501 Stewart D
------ ------ ------ roughly 90% of innings as a starting pitcher?
0.403 Niekro J
0.394 Blackwell E
0.340 Passeau C
0.324 Soto M
0.309 Coombs J
0.300 Jackson L
0.296 Leever S
0.244 Parnell M
0.241 Newsom B
0.233 Cooper M
0.231 Simmons C
0.227 McDowell S
0.210 Friend B
0.179 Forsch B
0.167 Hampton M
0.165 Messersmith A
0.165 Sutcliffe R
0.081 Dierker L
0.067 Langston M
------ ------ ------ roughly 99% of innings as a starting pitcher?
0.023 Fernandez S
0.004 Garcia F

If Carroll pitched merely 5 innings per start, then he worked more than 10% of his career innings as a starting pitcher. Beside Tekulve, if anyone, whom would you call a career relief pitcher? Toward the top of the list, whom would you call a career starting pitcher? Suppose there are only three categories so those two questions are equivalent to the two questions where is the borderland? How wide is it?

[Paul Wendt]

[SIZE="1"]The ballot lists candidates and their major league debut years in alphabetical order.
Here they are in chronological order.
UPPERCASE names identify mainly-relief pitchers and UPPERCASE surnames identify intermediate careers.
'DT' and the player name are linked to player pages at BaseballProspectus and Baseball-Reference.

And now for something completely different. "Top 100 Pitchers" has expanded to reconsider many of the phase one also-rans. How are these candidates faring over there in the "Tiers"?

Sam Leever is in Tier 8 ('8'), nine more have been Tiered ('9','10'), five others were included in the Tier 10 final (*), Mike Garcia failed a qualifying trial ('- '), and that project has passed over the others because they earned no votes in phase one ('--').

8 ; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/leevesa01.php") : Sam Leever ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/leevesa01.shtml"), debut 1898
* ; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/coombja01.php") : Jack Coombs ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/coombja01.shtml"), 1906
--; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/newsobo01.php") : Bobo Newsom ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/n/newsobo01.shtml"), 1929
--; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/passecl01.php") : Claude Passeau ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/passecl01.shtml"), 1935
10; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/coopemo01.php") : Mort Cooper ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/coopemo01.shtml"), 1938
--; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/blackew01.php") : Ewell Blackwell ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/blackew01.shtml"), 1942
9 ; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/parneme01.php") : Mel Parnell ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/parneme01.shtml"), 1947
* ; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/simmocu01.php") : Curt Simmons ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/simmocu01.shtml"), 1947
- ; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/garcimi01.php") : Mike Garcia ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/garcimi01.shtml"), 1948
--; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/frienbo01.php") : Bob Friend ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/frienbo01.shtml"), 1951
* ; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/jacksla01.php") : Larry Jackson ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jacksla01.shtml"), 1955
* ; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/mcdanli01.php") : Lindy MCDANIEL ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mcdanli01.shtml"), 1955
9 ; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/mcdowsa01.php") : Sam McDowell ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mcdowsa01.shtml"), 1961
--; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/carrocl02.php") : CLAY CARROLL ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/carrocl02.shtml"), 1964
--; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/dierkla01.php") : Larry Dierker ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/dierkla01.shtml"), 1964
10; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/niekrjo01.php") : Joe Niekro ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/n/niekrjo01.shtml"), 1967
10; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/messean01.php") : Andy Messersmith ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/messean01.shtml"), 1968
--; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/forscbo01.php") : Bob Forsch ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/forscbo01.shtml"), 1974
9 ; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/tekulke01.php") : KENT TEKULVE ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/tekulke01.shtml"), 1974
* ; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/sutclri01.php") : Rick Sutcliffe ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sutclri01.shtml"), 1976
10; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/sotoma01.php") : Mario Soto ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sotoma01.shtml"), 1977
9 ; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/stewada01.php") : Dave Stewart ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/stewada01.shtml"), 1978
--; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/fernasi01.php") : Sid Fernandez ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/fernasi01.shtml"), 1983
10; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/langsma01.php") : Mark Langston ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/langsma01.shtml"), 1984
--; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/gordoto01.php") : Tom GORDON ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gordoto01.shtml"), 1988
--; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/hamptmi01.php") : Mike Hampton ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hamptmi01.shtml"), 1993
--; DT ("http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/garcifr02.php") : Freddy Garcia ("http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/garcifr02.shtml"), 1999

Within "the field" that earned no second chance in "Top 100 Pitchers" ('--'), Bobo Newsom has a good chance to advance here. Sid Fernandez, Bob Friend, and Claude Passeau have a couple of votes each.

[Paul Wendt]

That novel coverage of Relief Games per Start didn't spark any firestorm.
Here is something more conventional.
--

Six of the pitchers on this ballot stand out by DERA* which is one measure of net pitching-batting rate on the same scale as ERA+. Batting is incorporated on the basis of about 3 plate appearances per game, which is about the norm for a good career pitcher during his prime seasons.

DERA*
118.95 Cooper M
118.82 TEKULVE K
117.41 Parnell M
115.57 Passeau C
115.42 Blackwell E
115.15 Fernandez S

Claude Passeau pitched 2720 innings, the others 1321 (Blackwell) to 1867 innings, among the shortest career workloads on the ballot.

The next nine "leaders" by DERA* worked at least 2100 innings, led by Larry Jackson 3262, Mark Langston 2963, and Sam Leever 2661.

112.69 Messersmith A
111.24 Gordon T
110.36 Leever S
109.39 Garcia M
109.27 McDowell S
108.92 Jackson L
108.89 Hampton M
108.41 Langston M
108.09 Dierker L

Four others topped 3000 innings.

106.51 Newsom B (3759 inns)
105.42 Friend B (3611)
102.48 Simmons C (3348)
_95.80 Niekro J (3584)

[Paul Wendt]

Bill James put two of these pitchers in his top hundred, mlb 1876-2001, Larry Jackson and Mel Parnell. I alone voted for both of them and they are near or at the bottom of my eight. They are not doing too well as individual entries either.

Bobo Newsom and Bob Friend are two of a few pitchers sometimes called the best ever with a losing career record. Does it surprise anyone that they are the ballot leaders by innings at 3759 and 3611. (Newsom takes the laurel in my opinion.)

Relative to the norms of his day, Mike Hampton may have been the strongest batter of all career pitchers. Is there a Hampton fan with a suitable daffynition of "career pitcher"?

Where is the girl who loved Tom Gordon? She hasn't yet voted here.

[Paul Wendt]

In this forum, especially in the "Top 100 Pitchers" and "Also-Ran Pitchers" series, I have many times covered pitchers relying partly on some sabrmetrics or new statistics, recently including DERA.

Now I have posted a table that gives career data for 637 major league pitchers: DERA and other "new statistics" from DT cards, middle-aged ERA+ and OPS+, and more.
pitchers, edition 637 now available (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1400246&postcount=26)


P.S.
This poll would benefit from a few more opinions.

[Paul Wendt]

After 11 ballots cast and four weeks passed,
eight winners advance to a smaller field where they will get more focused attention.

votes
7, Sam Leever, Sam McDowell, Andy Messersmith
6, Mort Cooper, Dave Stewart, Kent Tekulve
5, Mel Parnell, Joe Niekro

We may dip again from this pool. Here are the current leaders for that honor.

4, Mark Langston, Bobo Newsom, Mario Soto
3, Sid Fernandez, Bob Friend, Larry Jackson, Claude Passeau

The poll remains open but the leftovers will not overtake the winners based on votes that continue to be cast here.