Joe Po and Ken Boyer

[Mike90]

Joe Posnanski has recently written a few excellent articles on the Hall of Fame:
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/12/17/kids-in-the-hall-part-i/
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/12/04/a-hall-of-fame-manifesto/

Anyway, he brought up an interesting point regarding how 2nd basemen and 3rd basemen are perceived by the HOF voters:

"*In fact, I don’t believe Sandberg would have been voted if he had played third base … and you know he was a third baseman his first year in Chicago. I actually have proof. Here are two rows of statistics.

Player A: .285/.344/.452, 282 homers, 1,061 RBIs, 1,318 runs, 2,386 hits, 114 OPS+.
Player B: .287/.349/.462, 282 homers, 1,141 RBIs, 1,104 runs, 2,143 hits, 116 OPS+.

Pretty similar, eh? Player A, of course, is Sandberg. Player B, meanwhile got 1,000 fewer at-bats in his career than Player A, but put up more or less the same numbers — better numbers in some ways.

So, you will say: Yeah, but Sandberg was so slick with the glove. Well, Player B won five Gold Gloves and may have deserved more — he’s one of the better fielding third baseman in baseball history.

So you will say: Yeah, but Sandberg won an MVP award. Well, Player B won an MVP too.

So you will say: Yeah, but Sandberg was one of the class players who was a credit to the game and a fan favorite. Player B was all of those things too.

You are way ahead of me, I’m sure. Player A is Sandberg. Player B is Ken Boyer. If they had swapped positions, it’s possible that Boyer would be the Hall of Famer, Sandberg the close-but-not-quite candidate."

So what do you think: Should Ken Boyer be a hall of famer? How about Ryne Sandberg?

[SamtheBravesFan]

That only asserts that Ryne Sandberg wouldn't be in the Hall if he had played third base. I don't see how that reflects highly on Boyer because he never played second base. He's only comparing stats directly against each other, not stats and positions, which the Hall of Fame voters seem to be doing. Somehow, the standard for third base has been raised to a REALLY high level.

[Mike90]

That only asserts that Ryne Sandberg wouldn't be in the Hall if he had played third base. I don't see how that reflects highly on Boyer because he never played second base. He's only comparing stats directly against each other, not stats and positions, which the Hall of Fame voters seem to be doing. Somehow, the standard for third base has been raised to a REALLY high level.

Except 3rd base is still a very important defensive position that requires a lot of skill - maybe not as much skill as 2nd base, but they are very close in terms of defensive value. You're right about the standard for 3rd base being raised to a high level: excluding Negro League players and 19th-century players (I'm not saying those guys aren't deserving of the Hall just that I can't use them for comparison purposes here), there have been only 10 3rd basemen elected to the Hall compared to 14 1st basemen, 16 2nd basemen and 19 shortstops. However, I don't think the high standard hurts Ken Boyer. IMO, Boyer is a better player than 4 enshrined 3rd basemen: Pie Traynor, Jimmy Collins, George Kell, and Freddie Lindstrom. I think that's enough to make him a deserving hall of famer (that same argument applies even more so to Ron Santo, Stan Hack and Darrell Evans).

[KCGHOST]

Ryne Sandberg is probably one of the 10 best 2B's to have ever played the game. He ranks 8th in career win shares amongst the 18 2B who are in the HoF and played MLB. If you are not a big fan of win shares or other such statistics consider this: Almost certainly there are no 2B's eligible to be elected to the HoF who are better than Sandberg

Boyer is a 3B and that's a problem. If he was in the HoF his career win shares would place in the bottom third of a group of twelve. And worse there are at least five 3B's not in the HoF who are are as good and probably better than Boyer. Santo, Hack, Bando, Nettles, and Evans. Groh, Elliott, and Cey probably have as good a case as Boyer.

Boyer is, at best, a marginal HoF candidate and has better players ahead of him.

[Mike90]

Ryne Sandberg is probably one of the 10 best 2B's to have ever played the game. He ranks 8th in career win shares amongst the 18 2B who are in the HoF and played MLB. If you are not a big fan of win shares or other such statistics consider this: Almost certainly there are no 2B's eligible to be elected to the HoF who are better than Sandberg

Boyer is a 3B and that's a problem. If he was in the HoF his career win shares would place in the bottom third of a group of twelve. And worse there are at least five 3B's not in the HoF who are are as good and probably better than Boyer. Santo, Hack, Bando, Nettles, and Evans. Groh, Elliott, and Cey probably have as good a case as Boyer.

Boyer is, at best, a marginal HoF candidate and has better players ahead of him.

I think Sandberg is an easy choice for the Hall and Boyer much more marginal, but I do think Boyer has a pretty good case. Mainly I wanted an excuse to link to Posnanski's articles. I think he's a great sportswriter. Nettles, Bando, Nettles and Evans are in the same general range as Boyer, and I would put all of them in the Hall. Santo is a step above those guys, while Groh, Elliot and Cey are a tiny bit below.

I did think it was interesting that Sandberg's and Boyer's superficial numbers were so similar, and Boyer peaked at 25% in the voting while Sandberg got in on the 3rd ballot. I don't how much of that has to do with Sandberg being a 2nd baseman since Lou Whitaker was forgotten in the voting.

[henrich]

Sandberg is a definite Hall of Fame player being elected on the 2nd ballot is testament to that and he is 11th all-time at his position for me

2B
Collins 16,075
Hornsby 15,980
Frisch 13,982
Morgan 13,429
LaJoie 13,214

Alomar 12,264
Gehringer 11,949
Biggio 11,199
Lazzeri 10,753
Kent (thru 2007) 10,583
Gordon 10,265
Sandberg 10,295
Robinson Jackie 9253

All of those eligible in the top 12 are in the Hall. Alomar, Biggio and Kent are certain hall of fame players and in elite company.

For 3B:
Schmidt 15,114
Brett 13,028
Robinson B. 13,012
Matthews 11,514
Jones Chipper 10,922
Boggs 10,725
Nettles 10,208
Baker 9927
Boyer Ken 9758
Williams M. 9678
Santo 9198
Traynor 9133

Bold are in the Hall of Fame currently, italics are not eligible-Jones and Williams, underline are people eligible but not in the Hall, that many argue should be: Nettles, the aforementioned Boyer, and Santo.

I think Boyer has a strong case for the Hall of fame based upon the original facts listed in this thread and H-Factor supports that hypothesis, not to be confused with excluding Sandberg, but more to include Boyer too.

Nettles is in the Hall if he .250, Boyer and Santo should be they have been repeated candidates by the Veterans' Committees eventually they'll get it right.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I view the case for Ken Boyer as pretty much the same as for Ron Santo. Santo's higher OWP for his career is partially due to his rapid decline. Boyer played longer, and he won an MVP at age 33. He was overshadowed by Eddie Mathews (who hit more HRs and whose team was more successful for most of the time both were active), but Boyer was the better defensive third baseman, and he would have been the best 3B in baseball absent Mathews and the overrating of Brooks Robinson. I support his election (as I do Santo's).

[J W]

Kudos to Joe for the article. The HOF needs more third baseman and the standards are too high compared to the other positions (except perhaps catcher).

Ken Boyer should be a HOFer. And yes, there should be others ahead of him to get in.