The Coaches God Complex

[Bryton]

Ok, my question is, why do coaches feel that they need to change a hitter just because he is now that player/hitters coach? If a kid is successful, why mess with his swing at all? Maybe his swing doesn't look the greatest, but why the need to just change it to suit what you believe in as a coach? Why not see how the kid is doing with his current swing? Maybe he is successful with his swing the way it is. Why the need to change it to just change it to your beliefs? Now if the kid is just not successful at the plate with what he was taught, then by all means make some adjustments. But to change a swing or make adjustments just to make the player change to what you only believe in is kinda rediculous to me.

I'm not trying to bash coaches here. Please don't take it as a personal insult. But I have seen it on enough occasions that, a coach gets a new player, and automatically feels that the kid is not doing it right, and will just start making drastic changes, and really mess the kid up more then he was. Or maybe the kid wasn't messed up at all and actually hits the ball well, but just because you being the coach thinks its wrong, you just automatically start making changes to the players swing before you even know what the kid can do. I just seen where somone posted on here, that he would change something on day one on a player if they did this certain thing. Maybe it is something you don't agree with. Maybe, your right in that it is wrong and is robbing the player of something. But how do you actually know until you see what the kid can do. Maybe he was taught that way, and it actually works for him. Why change it just because you don't believe in it?

Coaches seem to try and teach every kid the exact same way. The way that coach believes. And they try to put them in a cookie cutter swing, when actually, sometimes you just need to let a kid find what is comfortable for him. If the player is not comfortable, he is not going to hit. It may not look the best, but that doesn't mean that he can't get the job done. Maybe it looks awkward, but when he actually gets to certain points he is in the right postions.

I don't know, this is something I see a lot of, and I think sometimes coaches just change things on players just to suit their beliefs. Sorry for going off. I'm off my soap box now. No disrepect to you coaches who do it the right way.

[FiveFrameSwing]

My question back to you is why would a parent/player seek out a particular hitting instructor if they already had a hitting approach that they were perfectly happy with?

Why would someone select a hitting instructor that is incompatible with how they wish their kid to hit?

An instructor should be willing to show their vision in terms of where they plan to direct the student. If the student isn’t interested in the plan that is laid out, then they should take a hike. If they decide that the plan is what they want, then they should buckle down and get to work.

Now, if you are coming at this from a team perspective, then many coaches (but not all coaches) will respect a student that is seeing a private hitting instructor and not attempt to make large scale changes … especially if they are performing above average.

[Ursa Major]

B, there may be some legitimate reasons for the change. Of course, there are coaches who do that because they can, and really mess up a kid. You as the parent in a rec league have the opportunity to say, "Look, my kid is getting private instruction from someone else and, if you want to talk with him or me so as to be able to reinforce that, fine; but otherwise, please do not make changes to his swing."

As has been discussed in other threads, once you get to school teams, you usually don't have that luxury. Your kid likely has only one choice of a school to go to and it has one head coach, so you have little leverage. There, the coach can simply cut the kid if he doesn't follow his instructions. And the coach may be relying on old learning that is unhelpful, but the word hasn't gotten back to the coach.

The legitimate reasons for making changes for even successful hitters? Let me give an example: I coached a super-athlete for three years who saw no need to change his linear swing that worked for him up to age 13, so I had not choice but to just let him go with what he was doing. He just started high school and, in one of his first games in their fall development program, he burst out with a beautiful rotational swing; his high school coaches told him that his old swing was not going to cut it, and, because they could cut him from the squad, he had to make the change (and is glad he did).

Many kids who want to play high school ball have to make pretty fundamental changes in their swings at the age of 13 or 14 -- just like this kid. If you still have an arm swing at that age, you will have no chance of reaching the fence. And coaches will shy away from armswingers, because they'll figure they have to re-train the kid's swing from scratch. So, don't assume that -- just because the kid has had some success in the past -- coaches should not think about changing his swing into a higher level swing.

[callyjr]

I have taken the approach with my boys teams that I let the kids swing the way they want. I throw in little settle hints that you might try this or that to get more power or the reason that hurt your hands is because your doing this or that. For the most part I have left my kids alone unless they were doing something really wrong. Its helps to get the kids to listen to me when my son which is younger then them but continues to out hit them :)

However we don't use a tee and my drills are usually promoting the swing I am after, but I have not yet told a kid that he has the swing my way.

Cally

[CoachB25]

Bryton, it is hard not to take this as an affront to coaches when the title is "Coaches God Complex." Bryton, I think you make a valid point in that change for change's sake isn't appropriate. However, don't you think that most coaches suggest changes because they believe they can make players better? What we then have to decide is what is the role you want a coach to take? Do you simply want supervisors? Bryton, what would your role be if your job depended upon producing a winning program? Well, I could go on and on. Regarding the "expert" or private instructor, who's to say that I'm not an expert in doing what I do? Who's to say that I don't know more than your "expert?" Because John John has a private instructor, I'm supposed to keep my mouth shut and let him be? It's really very simple, if I can't coach a kid, he isn't making my team. If parents believe that I have to run any changes in his swing past them first, he isn't making my team. You might call this a "God Complex." I call it doing my job.

[Chris O'Leary]

Ok, my question is, why do coaches feel that they need to change a hitter just because he is now that player/hitters coach? If a kid is successful, why mess with his swing at all? Maybe his swing doesn't look the greatest, but why the need to just change it to suit what you believe in as a coach? Why not see how the kid is doing with his current swing? Maybe he is successful with his swing the way it is. Why the need to change it to just change it to your beliefs? Now if the kid is just not successful at the plate with what he was taught, then by all means make some adjustments. But to change a swing or make adjustments just to make the player change to what you only believe in is kinda rediculous to me.

I'm not sure why it happens but it absolutely does.

In some cases people don't understand what the major league swing looks like. They think it's a linear swing, and when they see a rotational swing they think it's won't scale because it doesn't fit their pre-conceived notion of what a good swing looks like.

However, I don't understand why they can't see that the rotational swing that they see in a HS player isn't the same rotational swing that they see in a ML player. Maybe it's that they don't spend enough time looking at ML swings.

[mudvnine]

It's really very simple, if I can't coach a kid, he isn't making my team. If parents believe that I have to run any changes in his swing past them first, he isn't making my team. You might call this a "God Complex." I call it doing my job.

As long as a player is successful he makes my team . . . stop being successful and you don't make the team.

I believe coaching and instruction are two very separate entities and should be addressed as such. I don't have to instruct ALL of the kids that play for me, just as I don't have to have ALL of the kids that I instruct, play for me. :shrug:

[CoachB25]

As long as a player is successful he makes my team . . . stop being successful and you don't make the team.

I believe coaching and instruction are two very separate entities and should be addressed as such. I don't have to instruct ALL of the kids that play for me, just as I don't have to have ALL of the kids that I instruct, play for me. :shrug:

Interesting! So, coachability isn't important to you? To me, it's says a lot about the fabric of a team. Coaching and instruction are two seperate things? What is your take on this and examples please?

My take, I coach. I don't sit in a dugout for 3 hours and tell the boys I hope that they are successful. I believe a coach needs to know about every facet of the game and prepare his players by being able to break down fielding, pitching and hitting in drill work. Then, a successful coach needs to incorporate that into team activities such as BP, Bullpens and Infield/Outfield. Then, that has to have carryover to games. Should a player of mine get a hit, I'm not going to run around hoping that he does so again. If he has a problem with his mechanics, I'm going to have video to follow back on and break down his swing with him. I am totally amazed at the growing number of parents that want supervisors for coaches who don't want the coach to mess with their prodigy and of whom still sit in the stands knowing more than the coach knows and second guessing the coach because they are "God's gift to parenthood." JMHO! I'll take a chill pill now.

[callyjr]

Interesting! So, coachability isn't important to you? To me, it's says a lot about the fabric of a team. Coaching and instruction are two seperate things? What is your take on this and examples please?

My take, I coach. I don't sit in a dugout for 3 hours and tell the boys I hope that they are successful. I believe a coach needs to know about every facet of the game and prepare his players by being able to break down fielding, pitching and hitting in drill work. Then, a successful coach needs to incorporate that into team activities such as BP, Bullpens and Infield/Outfield. Then, that has to have carryover to games. Should a player of mine get a hit, I'm not going to run around hoping that he does so again. If he has a problem with his mechanics, I'm going to have video to follow back on and break down his swing with him. I am totally amazed at the growing number of parents that want supervisors for coaches who don't want the coach to mess with their prodigy and of whom still sit in the stands knowing more than the coach knows and second guessing the coach because they ae "God's gift to parenthood." JMHO! I'll take a chill pill now.

Coach,

I think he said the kid was a good hitter and didn't understand why there is a need for change. If you have a kid hitting the ball well your usually not gonna mess with him much. Like I said earlier, I will just try and add a piece here or there.

[FiveFrameSwing]

CB25,

As a HS coach I'm respectful of the investment that parents have put into their kids.

The HS season is short. To expect a complete re-engineering of a student's swing during this time frame is unrealistic.

As such, I encourage, and am pleased, when a HS student seeks out private hitting instruction during the off-season.

IMO a HS coach encouraging a student to seek private instruction should be respectful of allowing the kid to use the mechanics that the parents are paying for.

As a HS coach, I find that that there is a fair amount of team "management" that takes place. Yes, we will touch up the kids hitting skills to make them more successful, but we won't re-engineer a kid's swing. We are respectful of the investment that parents make in their kids and we feel it would be wrong to screw-up their investment.

The bottom-line is that I play our team based on "performance" and am tolerate of students that have been trained differently.

IMO, if a HS coach is going to encourage students/families to seek independent training, then they should allow that training to be used ... and allow performance to serve as the overriding guideline as to whether or not the kids receives playing time or bench time.

That said ... when players seek me out for private hitting instruction then it's my-way or the high-way.

I agree with Mud ... there is a difference between serving as a coach and serving as a private instructor.

-FFS

[ctandc]

Well from the tone of the email.. I'm going to "Assume" that the situation you are describing is a kid (maybe yours, maybe not) joins a team. The kid was a good hitter before he joined the team, and maybe because the kid doesn't swing the way the Coach wants, even without seeing if it works for that player, the Coach is trying to change him?

I coach as well...and for me it would depend on the situation.

Of course I don't take a kid on team, that I don't already know. And I'm very upfront with parents before asking a kid to come to my team, that they know what philosophy I have for hitting / pitching etc, and what I try to teach.

Honestly it's hard to comment on that type of situation without knowing both sides of the story.

It could go either way. I know I had a kid join my team at the beginning of the Fall Season, and I was upfront with him and his Dad that I wanted to work on his hitting. He was a "good" hitter...but he was using all hands, and relying on this speed to get him on. I want to help him learn how to hit in a way that will lead to success on the big field....not just on the small field. I let the kid and the Dad know it was going to take some work, and it would probably get worse before it got better. That was 4 months ago, and his swing is totally different now.

[mudvnine]

Interesting! So, coachability isn't important to you? Never said that.

Coaching and instruction are two seperate things? What is your take on this and examples please?

Coaching to me is the utilization of all the skill sets that your players bring to the table collectively and developing a synergistic effect towards success.

Instruction is the one on one setting where a player develops his various skill sets that he will bring to the field/team.


My take, I coach. I don't sit in a dugout for 3 hours and tell the boys I hope that they are successful. I believe a coach needs to know about every facet of the game and prepare his players by being able to break down fielding, pitching and hitting in drill work. Then, a successful coach needs to incorporate that into team activities such as BP, Bullpens and Infield/Outfield. Then, that has to have carryover to games. Should a player of mine get a hit, I'm not going to run around hoping that he does so again. If he has a problem with his mechanics, I'm going to have video to follow back on and break down his swing with him. I am totally amazed at the growing number of parents that want supervisors for coaches who don't want the coach to mess with their prodigy and of whom still sit in the stands knowing more than the coach knows and second guessing the coach because they are "God's gift to parenthood." JMHO! I'll take a chill pill now.

Never said anything about sitting in a dugout for 3 hours and hoping for success. I agree that "a coach needs to know about every facet of the game and prepare his players by being able to break down fielding, pitching and hitting in drill work", but I believe the drills should put emphasis on the team aspect of the game and not the nuances of the individual players.

Trying to fit all players into the same mold has never made any sense to me; please show me ONE succesful team (or any team for that matter) where ALL of the players had the exact same hitting, fielding, and throwing mechanics . . .

. . . I'll wait . . . :coffee . . . rememeber, I'm only asking for one.

[TG Coach]

Ok, my question is, why do coaches feel that they need to change a hitter just because he is now that player/hitters coach? If a kid is successful, why mess with his swing at all? Maybe his swing doesn't look the greatest, but why the need to just change it to suit what you believe in as a coach? Why not see how the kid is doing with his current swing? Maybe he is successful with his swing the way it is. Why the need to change it to just change it to your beliefs?

I've coached hitting up through 18U showcase ball. My son is now a fifteen year old high school sophomore. He's been very successful at every level. He played up a year last year. We spent the fall tearing down his swing and rebuilding it while playing 18U fall ball. I told him he most likely would not succeed at the 18U showcase level with his swing and not become a college prospect.

For anyone interested when he grew seven inches last year he started coming around the ball to pull everything. It became a flaw he couldn't correct on his own. I made the mistake of saying when he was 5'4" and driving the ball, "I can't wait to see the ball fly when you're bigger." After he grew he tried to drive the ball. He hit the ball more consistantly when he was 5'4". I saw soft line drive hits to right (lefty) that would have been shots up the middle and up the gap in right if he hadn't changed his swing and tried to jerk everything. Plus kids often screw up their mechanics when they grow quickly. Despite his self inflicted change to his swing he still hit for a high average. To drive my point home I told him if I was the opposing coach I'd place every fielder on the right side except a third baseman to play the bunt.

Do you remember a few years ago Tiger Woods was having an off year by his standards? When asked about it he said he made some adjustments to his swing that would take a year to master, but would help him long term. Wasn't he good enough? He wanted to be better.

As a team hitting instructor I don't remake the mold. I make what I feel are necessary changes. If a player tells me he's seeing a hitting instructor I ask where and who. If I don't know the instructor's style I'll call him to see what he's trying to accomplish. If I know the instructor and the player tells me my advice conflicts with his I'll ask the player to have him call me. Sometimes we're teaching the same thing and saying it a different way.

[omg]

Bryton, it is hard not to take this as an affront to coaches when the title is "Coaches God Complex." Bryton, I think you make a valid point in that change for change's sake isn't appropriate. However, don't you think that most coaches suggest changes because they believe they can make players better? What we then have to decide is what is the role you want a coach to take? Do you simply want supervisors? Bryton, what would your role be if your job depended upon producing a winning program? Well, I could go on and on. Regarding the "expert" or private instructor, who's to say that I'm not an expert in doing what I do? Who's to say that I don't know more than your "expert?" Because John John has a private instructor, I'm supposed to keep my mouth shut and let him be? It's really very simple, if I can't coach a kid, he isn't making my team. If parents believe that I have to run any changes in his swing past them first, he isn't making my team. You might call this a "God Complex." I call it doing my job.

A lot of paid, individual private instructors don't have the burden of winning or losing games. In a way, it makes that type of job appealling because there is not that element of accountability:you get to do your baseball thing and you get the dough. Not to put that group down, I'm just saying that this part of the dynamic. But the buck stops at the team coach.

[Bryton]

Ok everyone. I'm glad I have everyone's attention. Unfortunately I have to go pay the bills with work, so I will respond either late tonight east coast time, or early tomorrow. I have not started something I won't finish. I will give my thoughts and opinions asap :)

[CoachB25]

Post Deleted.

Nothing to gain here. I am wrong.

[mudvnine]

Since you deleted it in yours, I will do the same here . . . I think that's only fair. :thumbsup: - mud

Yes, . . . but I will accept that and offer you my congratulations. :nod:

[Bryton]

Ok, let me put this in another way. All hypothetical of course. Lets say that a coach believes in the "rotational" swing. But you or your private instructor is teaching your son the "linear" swing. And you as a coach feel you need to change his swing to your beliefs in the "rotational" swing. Why? Just because that is the swing you believe in? If the kid is successful, why change him?

Now if you have a kid trying out for your team, and you notice he is just hitting the crap out of the ball, but you as a coach notice it's a "linear" swing, and you believe and teach the "rotational" swing. Are you not going to take this kid on your team? If not why? He can help your team. Maybe down the road you know that swing won't cut it as he moves up levels in baseball. But maybe then, if he starts to struggle or before he does, you talk with the parents and explain why you don't believe his kids swing will hold up as he moves up in baseball.

Why is it that the coach automatically knows more then the parent? How do you as a coach know that a parent doesn't know what he is talking about, and even taught his son his swing be it "rotational" or "linear". There are parents that take a very active roll in their kids sports, and god forbid, some of them actually know what they are talking about. What, a coach just has to much pride to maybe admit that the parent might know what he is talking about. Maybe, that parent that knows what he is talking about, just doesn't want to coach his kid.
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Want to ask Jason Giambi who he goes to when he is struggling at the plate? I'm pretty sure it's not his hitting coach with the Yankees. He goes back to pop's. Why, because pop's knows his swing better then anyone else. Why, maybe because pop's knew a little bit about what he was teaching his kid. Hmmmm.

Is my kid uncoachable? Far from it. He actually likes to be coached. One of the few that loves practice as much as games. But when it comes to his hitting, he trust me more then his coaches, and my kid can hit the ball pretty well. But his coach looks at me like most coaches, that I don't know what I am talking about just because I am a parent, and feels like I am interfering with his coaching, when I don't believe in what he teaches in the swing. So what, as a parent, am I just supposed to sit back and watch him destroy my son's swing because of how he believes the swing it supposed to be, and just because he is the coach? I understand that this is a fine line. And if you ask most professional hitting instructors, they will tell you that most parents know their kids and their sports, more then coaches realize, if for nothing else, a coach isn't with that player day in and day out. Especially during the off season when most teams (atleast) here in Michigan, are only practicing 1 day a week during the winter, until Febuary. I can honestly say, I know my son's swing better then anyone else, and I can look at it live and know on the spot what he is, or isn't doing. We work on it the better part of 4 to 5 days a week. With that said, I also understand that there are a ton of parents that don't know jack about anything when it comes to kids and their sports. This is where I think coaches need to take an interest and talk with parents and try to find out who's been doing what as far as instruction, and who hasn't. Maybe thats where a parents meeting comes into play, and even maybe into a one on one talk with certain parents.

My son and I have invested countless hours into his swing. Through video analysis, time on the tee. Time in the cage. Reading books, etc.... And I'll be darned if Im going to let a coach with a "god complex" destroy what we have worked so hard on, especially, when he will have different coaches along the way who have different philosiphies. Do I interfer with the team, and how the coaches coach. Absolutely not, but I will talk to the coach, and explain my, and my son's situation and where we are coming from with his hitting. I think that is fair not only by me, but the coach should also be fair in listening to what I have to say as well, and understand where I am coming from.

Now this all leads back to my point. If a kid is successful, why mess with what is working, even if you don't believe in their swing, or even if you know that their swing will not be successful as they move up levels in the sport. Why not go to the parents and say. Hey Mr. Joe, I see that your son is very successful, but in my "opinion", as he moves up levels in baseball, I don't believe his swing will get him to where he want's to go. Then maybe you can discuss why you believe that his current swing won't work later on with the parents, and then you can go from there........

Why just change a kids swing to change it because your the coach and its your way or the highway. Or "I will just cut you". Obviously the kid has a little somthing, and maybe let him go until he starts to "struggle", and then maybe at that point you say to the parents. This is why your son is now stuggling, and why I think we need to make necessary adjustments to your childs swing.......

Not just take a kid who is totally successful at that point in his baseball career and just change to what you believe in as a coach just because that is what you believe in.....

This is what I am trying to get at when I started this post. Sometimes a coaches "ego" and "pride" get in the way, more then it needs to.

I hope I got my point across and people understand where I am coming from. I think sometimes a coach can do more harm then good. But then there are those coaches who can do way more good then anything else, and I commend them for that. I just feel that the coaches do need to take into consideration the parents, and talk with them to find out where they stand.

All this is just my .02. But it is also where I stand, and what I believe.

Just a side story to all this so you understand where I am coming from. I coached hockey. I had a new goalie I took on my team. I believed in the butterfly style. So I started to work with him on this style. After practice, his dad came up to me and talked to me that his goalie instructor likes his son in the more "stand up" style. I did not say, "well dad, its my way or the highway". I just told the father I understand, and I would not interfer with what he and his sons goalie coach was teaching him. I gave him my opinion on why I thought his kid would be better off in the long run with the style I believed in, but overall his kid was successful. Why change it just to change it. Sometimes you need to let a kid find his own style, and most important what he is comfortable with, because if a kid, or even and adult isn't comfortable, there will be no confidence to go along with it.

Just thought I'd throw that in there.

Thanks everyone

[BoardMember]

This situation can be a double edge sword.

I'll give a little prospective from an 18 year veteran of the very highest level travel ball. My teams have always been made up of "all the superstars" in the area and consequently, some have private instructors.

There are 2 things I make perfectly clear at the player/parent meeting before we ever step on the field for the first practice.

1.) If your kid has a private hitting instuctor, TELL ME NOW.

Why? One Edge of the Sword.

There's a lot of pressure on the kids to perform. With this pressure comes a desire to show the coach you are "on board". Part of showing the coach you are "on board" is the desire NOT to make waves, and be coachable. Part of the being coachable and "on board" means that you allow the coach to do what he does "NATURALLY". COACH.

HERE'S THE PROBLEM. Because of the "I'm on board" attitude, the coach is allowed to coach, and he may begin to introduce/change some things that don't fit the kids existing program. Frustration grows within the kid, and the DAD/MOM because they are worried that a good thing may be in jeperody. But because they don't want to make waves, they wait until something goes wrong to bring up the fact that the kid has a private coach. The kid starts hitting bad, and that is the point when the parent/player decides to tell the coach something that should've been said IN THE BEGINING. This situation NEVER ends well. The kid is now inundated with negetive thoughts, from the dad/mom, the private instructor, and from within him/her self, because he knows the coach has just been told NOT TO COACH, which reverses the "I'm on board" attitude, and he/she TANKS for the rest of the season, and of course, the parents BLAME the coach for screwing up the kid...........

Think about it................

Now the Second Edge of the Double Edge Sword..............

I also tell them:

2.) Be prepared for the consequences IF things aren't going well.........

The kid makes the team, and the parent CORRECTLY informs the coach that he/she has a private hitting instructor before the first practice.

What's wrong with that? Nothing of course. That is until the kid wiffs with the bases stuffed. Or his average isn't at the top of the class. Or his Hit-K ratio shows underperformance. Or anything else that the coach feels he is NOT in control of begins to show negetive performance.

That's when YOU as a parent are sitting on the other edge of the Double Edge Sword. The coach tells your player that he/she is underperforming, and will have to move down in the line up. The the pressure's on for the kid to perform. He begins to press. The parents begin to press him/her also. The downward spiral begins to accelerate. The further down he/she goes, the less at bats he/she gets. The tougher it is to get back on track.......

And of course the coach is thinking, "well, I hope you like your private instructor now"............

This situation NEVER ends well either.

So, my advise to all the parents out there.......

1.) TELL THE COACH UPFRONT before YOU let it affect your kid, and your coach.

2.) Be prepared for the consequences IF your kid is NOT performing as well as the top three hitters who allow the coach to coach them.........

No matter what, this is a DOUBLE EDGE SWORD that NO ONE LIKES, especially the coach.................

Ok, let me put this in another way. All hypothetical of course. Lets say that a coach believes in the "rotational" swing. But you or your private instructor is teaching your son the "linear" swing. And you as a coach feel you need to change his swing to your beliefs in the "rotational" swing. Why? Just because that is the swing you believe in? If the kid is successful, why change him?

Now if you have a kid trying out for your team, and you notice he is just hitting the crap out of the ball, but you as a coach notice it's a "linear" swing, and you believe and teach the "rotational" swing. Are you not going to take this kid on your team? If not why? He can help your team. Maybe down the road you know that swing won't cut it as he moves up levels in baseball. But maybe then, if he starts to struggle or before he does, you talk with the parents and explain why you don't believe his kids swing will hold up as he moves up in baseball.

Why is it that the coach automatically knows more then the parent? How do you as a coach know that a parent doesn't know what he is talking about, and even taught his son his swing be it "rotational" or "linear". There are parents that take a very active roll in their kids sports, and god forbid, some of them actually know what they are talking about. What, a coach just has to much pride to maybe admit that the parent might know what he is talking about. Maybe, that parent that knows what he is talking about, just doesn't want to coach his kid.
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Want to ask Jason Giambi who he goes to when he is struggling at the plate? I'm pretty sure it's not his hitting coach with the Yankees. He goes back to pop's. Why, because pop's knows his swing better then anyone else. Why, maybe because pop's knew a little bit about what he was teaching his kid. Hmmmm.

Is my kid uncoachable? Far from it. He actually likes to be coached. One of the few that loves practice as much as games. But when it comes to his hitting, he trust me more then his coaches, and my kid can hit the ball pretty well. But his coach looks at me like most coaches, that I don't know what I am talking about just because I am a parent, and feels like I am interfering with his coaching, when I don't believe in what he teaches in the swing. So what, as a parent, am I just supposed to sit back and watch him destroy my son's swing because of how he believes the swing it supposed to be, and just because he is the coach? I understand that this is a fine line. And if you ask most professional hitting instructors, they will tell you that most parents know their kids and their sports, more then coaches realize, if for nothing else, a coach isn't with that player day in and day out. Especially during the off season when most teams (atleast) here in Michigan, are only practicing 1 day a week during the winter, until Febuary. I can honestly say, I know my son's swing better then anyone else, and I can look at it live and know on the spot what he is, or isn't doing. We work on it the better part of 4 to 5 days a week. With that said, I also understand that there are a ton of parents that don't know jack about anything when it comes to kids and their sports. This is where I think coaches need to take an interest and talk with parents and try to find out who's been doing what as far as instruction, and who hasn't. Maybe thats where a parents meeting comes into play, and even maybe into a one on one talk with certain parents.

My son and I have invested countless hours into his swing. Through video analysis, time on the tee. Time in the cage. Reading books, etc.... And I'll be darned if Im going to let a coach with a "god complex" destroy what we have worked so hard on, especially, when he will have different coaches along the way who have different philosiphies. Do I interfer with the team, and how the coaches coach. Absolutely not, but I will talk to the coach, and explain my, and my son's situation and where we are coming from with his hitting. I think that is fair not only by me, but the coach should also be fair in listening to what I have to say as well, and understand where I am coming from.

Now this all leads back to my point. If a kid is successful, why mess with what is working, even if you don't believe in their swing, or even if you know that their swing will not be successful as they move up levels in the sport. Why not go to the parents and say. Hey Mr. Joe, I see that your son is very successful, but in my "opinion", as he moves up levels in baseball, I don't believe his swing will get him to where he want's to go. Then maybe you can discuss why you believe that his current swing won't work later on with the parents, and then you can go from there........

Why just change a kids swing to change it because your the coach and its your way or the highway. Or "I will just cut you". Obviously the kid has a little somthing, and maybe let him go until he starts to "struggle", and then maybe at that point you say to the parents. This is why your son is now stuggling, and why I think we need to make necessary adjustments to your childs swing.......

Not just take a kid who is totally successful at that point in his baseball career and just change to what you believe in as a coach just because that is what you believe in.....

This is what I am trying to get at when I started this post. Sometimes a coaches "ego" and "pride" get in the way, more then it needs to.

I hope I got my point across and people understand where I am coming from. I think sometimes a coach can do more harm then good. But then there are those coaches who can do way more good then anything else, and I commend them for that. I just feel that the coaches do need to take into consideration the parents, and talk with them to find out where they stand.

All this is just my .02. But it is also where I stand, and what I believe.

Just a side story to all this so you understand where I am coming from. I coached hockey. I had a new goalie I took on my team. I believed in the butterfly style. So I started to work with him on this style. After practice, his dad came up to me and talked to me that his goalie instructor likes his son in the more "stand up" style. I did not say, "well dad, its my way or the highway". I just told the father I understand, and I would not interfer with what he and his sons goalie coach was teaching him. I gave him my opinion on why I thought his kid would be better off in the long run with the style I believed in, but overall his kid was successful. Why change it just to change it. Sometimes you need to let a kid find his own style, and most important what he is comfortable with, because if a kid, or even and adult isn't comfortable, there will be no confidence to go along with it.

Just thought I'd throw that in there.

Thanks everyone

[Ursa Major]

Bryton, at some point one has to ask, "What is the point of this thread?" You asked at the beginning "why" some coaches act the way they do. Since we are all responsible, upright, and kindly coaches, that question is of little help, because the real question is and should be -- how do you deal with the God-complex coach? And that question has been debated here many times. If you're serious about wanting the answer, you'll look those up.

What you don't tell us is what level of ball you're talking about. If the league is simple rec ball and the coach/manager has been appointed because his buddy is the division president, then he's got no business overriding a parent's wishes and any parent who tolerates it is guilty of child abuse. (Well, maybe it's not that bad.) At that level, most coaches will honor -- however reluctantly -- the wishes of a parent who can articulate why he (or she) feels the way that he does. And, as you point out, it's in many cases as important to know what makes the kid tick as it is to know the mechanics of a good swing.

When I as a coach (rather than as an instructor) see a kid with a linear swing, I try to explain to him and his parent where I think there's a problem and why and how it should be corrected. If they object, I'll back off... but I'm usually pretty persuasive, and the results speak for themselves. But, I coach rec ball, so I've got no business overriding them.

But don't get hung up on the "he's doing okay with what I taught him so they've got no business touching his swing." Recognize that you may have some ego involved in the process and maybe you should give the coach -- who's likely got experience with more kids than you do -- the benefit of the doubt. Yeah, if he's trying to re-make your kid's swing from scratch, dig your heels in. But, some cue that he pushes at your kid may help him in a way that you don't realize. (... unless that cue involves "pushing the knob of the bat at the ball..."). And, this coach may have a connection to the local high school coaches and may be tuned into what they're looking for.

And, you know what, those local high school coaches may have forty kids playing at various levels within their bailiwick, and they don't want to have to re-teach from scratch the swings of kids doing different kinds of things. I know the coaches of the two major high schools in our areas, and I've seen their kids, and I know that what I try to teach is what their kids look like. So, as a rec ball coach, I can say, "It's my way or go find a private high school if you want your kid's career to continue beyond 8th grade."

You make one more troubling point, when you say, "Coaches seem to try and teach every kid the exact same way. The way that coach believes. And they try to put them in a cookie cutter swing, when actually, sometimes you just need to let a kid find what is comfortable for him. If the player is not comfortable, he is not going to hit."

In our area, at least 90% of decent high school hitters have a swing that functionally is identical to the others. Take out the early bat waggles and all, and they'll be pretty close to the same. You can't change the laws of physics, baby.

And the other point that is critical for kids at your son's level (he's an 8th grader, right)? Modifying your swing into good rotational hitting is often very uncomfortable. Why? Because kids want to instinctively move their arms toward the ball first, just like if they were playing ping pong. There's no other human activity in which they engage in which they're required to turn a long, heavy object and make it collide with a moving object that may be changing direction as it comes at them. One of the hardest things for kids to do when they see a meatball coming right down the pike is to keep their hands back and wrists cocked as they turn into the ball simply because some old guy tells them that the bathead will actually get around faster if they wait before releasing their hands -- that just doesn't make sense to many of them. I'd go so far as to say that, because a good rotational swing is functionally very simple (with a good setup, you just load and turn your back shoulder into the ball), the biggest obstacle to a kid in learning rotational hitting for the first time is resisting the instinct to move the arms first -- i.e., overcoming the comfortable.

There are two ways to make 'em comfortable with that good swing. First, show them videos of them doing it right -- it's fun for them to see that they really may have something in common with Albert Pujols besides the XY chromosome configuration. Second, the first time they turn on an inside fastball with a bent arm swing and see the ball go over the left fielder's head (and see the look of incredulity on the pitcher's face when he realized someone turned on his good, inside corner heater) --- well, then it will seem plenty comfortable.

[Encinitas]

Bryton, at some point one has to ask, "What is the point of this thread?" You asked at the beginning "why" some coaches act the way they do. Since we are all responsible, upright, and kindly coaches, that question is of little help, because the real question is and should be -- how do you deal with the God-complex coach? And that question has been debated here many times. If you're serious about wanting the answer, you'll look those up.

What you don't tell us is what level of ball you're talking about. If the league is simple rec ball and the coach/manager has been appointed because his buddy is the division president, then he's got no business overriding a parent's wishes and any parent who tolerates it is guilty of child abuse.

I typed a super long reply to this, mostly to agree with BM on the political/talent landscape (or political vs. talent maybe) and share an anecdotal story but realized, that it strayed much too far from the original thread. More of the background info would certainly help.

[Ursa Major]

CTandC said: Of course I don't take a kid on team, that I don't already know. Ct, I was a little intrigued by this comment. Of course, it's natural to want to have a comfort level with the kids you work with (along with their families), but why not take a flyer on a new kid.

I'm a little sensitized to this issue because the rec ball league I've been involved with for seven years is based in a relatively white town with two heavily African-American towns (Richmond and Oakland, California) nearby. So, the league itself and most of the coaches are white (or at least middle-class), but every year we have African-American kids show up from the surrounding towns who are really raw and often very scared about being thrust into a new situation with "different" kids. (And I laugh at all the talk about kids with their private instructors, because these kids often don't have a father in the picture, and may not have even had cleats. (We had one poor kid who was so proud that his mom scrimped and went out and got him a real $30 bat that he insisted on using every at bat. I didn't have the heart to tell him that he'd be better off using another kid's bat. When he hit the ball on the nose, it reached the outfield and he did okay, but when he hit it a little off, a shiver would run down your spine when you'd hear that awful clank (and imagine how his gloveless hands felt) and watch the shortstop come into to catch his lame little bloop.)

Because it's a rec ball league, the league will take them, so it's not a matter of them being cut. But, for coaches who rely on "the kids they know" and automatically put those slick, well-instructed kids at the key positions, these 'outsider' kids end up as afterthoughts, and they know it.

Hey, I know you're a good guy and I am in no way suggesting that you're insensitive to this kind of situation. I'm just using your comment as a jumping off spot for my observation that in baseball -- as often happens at school, etc. -- kids who don't have strong parental advocates can be mishandled by the system.

[Bryton]

URSA, this whole thread to me was a hypothetical. I seen a comment the other day on here that said something to the effect and I'm paraphrasing here, "that would change on day one". That kinda set me off a little and caused me to start this thread.....

With that said, I ended up putting my son and I in here because, I do have one issue with something that my sons coach teaches with hitting. And because of this, I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how to approach him with this, because I know what it will do to my son's swing and all the hard work we have put into it. Maybe a little advice would be good here.

URSA....yes my son is in 8th grade. And yes he plays FED/travel ball.

BM - I totally understand both sides of the sword you are talking about. But as stated above in my reply here. There is a couple things his coach teaches that I don't agree with, and will mess up my sons swing. Again, I am just not sure how to approach this with his coach because, I am not one of those dads who just says not to coach my kid. And like I said, my kid is very coachable. But my son also understands what I, and the instructor working with him are trying to teach him, and what his coach is trying to teach him, and my son knows what his coach is trying to teach him is wrong.

So maybe you coaches out there can help me with how to approach this. Yes I am a parent, but a parent who knows the game, and the swing pretty well from countless hours of playing myself, but mostly from the countless hours of research and reading, learning from intruction and others, as well as countless hours of video analysis. Does that make me an expert? By no means, but I do know that I no more about the swing then my son's coach does. And again, with that said not sure how to approach this with his coach so as to not come across as " that parent" whos kid is not coachable. ANY ADVICE ON THIS?

[shake-n-bake]

ANY ADVICE ON THIS?

Yes. Basically lay it out as you just have. I'd leave out the part about knowing more than the coach to be tactful. I'd leave in the part about not being an expert, but add that you are an expert on knowing what your son is trying to accomplish and what you and he believe is going to get the results he's looking for.

I've been where you're at with a coach about my son's pitching. My son bailed me out by printing a bunch of stuff he found online to support that his mechanics were sound and the coach's recommendations weren't worth a velvet painting of a whale and a dolphin getting it on.

[CoachB25]

Bryton enjoy your son's career. I'd have more to say but I don't think you're hip to what I'm thinking. Some fast math - 18 kids on a team, 36 parents who know more than the coach about their son's swing, ... That dugout is going to get crowded.

[Jake Patterson]

Ok, let me put this in another way. All hypothetical of course. Lets say that a coach believes in the "rotational" swing. But you or your private instructor is teaching your son the "linear" swing. And you as a coach feel you need to change his swing to your beliefs in the "rotational" swing. Why? Just because that is the swing you believe in? If the kid is successful, why change him? When a player/dad come to me and tell me they are pursuing a specific type of hitting and are taking lessons in a style in which I do not agree, I will not interfere. I will however, play that player based on his performance. In the case specifically noted above I will council dad and tell him that while it may work at this level it may not at the next. If dad insists - I leave it alone.

Why is it that the coach automatically knows more then the parent? How do you as a coach know that a parent doesn't know what he is talking about, and even taught his son his swing be it "rotational" or "linear". There are parents that take a very active roll in their kids sports, and god forbid, some of them actually know what they are talking about. What, a coach just has to much pride to maybe admit that the parent might know what he is talking about. Maybe, that parent that knows what he is talking about, just doesn't want to coach his kid. Most good coaches can figure out the parents knowledge in pretty short order. I have not found many that know more than me.

My son and I have invested countless hours into his swing. Through video analysis, time on the tee. Time in the cage. Reading books, etc.... And I'll be darned if Im going to let a coach with a "god complex" destroy what we have worked so hard on, especially, when he will have different coaches along the way who have different philosiphies. What age group??
I will agree if it's youth baseball. HS and above- live by the sword - die by the sword.

This is what I am trying to get at when I started this post. Sometimes a coaches "ego" and "pride" get in the way, more then it needs to. On this most of us would agree with some youth coaches. BUT... he's the guy, (in many cases the ONLY guy) who's volunteered.

[baseballdad]

I think you need to participate in the practices ideally be a parent helper if your son's coach wants assistants (as most do). Watch and listen very carefully to what the coach is saying-maybe what the coach is teaching is different but good. If you have philosophical differences approach the coach privately and tell him what your concerns are. This is a situation almost everyone will encounter during their development in sports. There are good reason's to justify changing a young players swing even if they are being successful at that level.

I'm not sure why you are complaining about this when you state the same thing happened to you as a coach and it worked out. Did the coach tell you his way or the highway?

[omg]

Bryton enjoy your son's career. I'd have more to say but I don't think you're hip to what I'm thinking. Some fast math - 18 kids on a team, 36 parents who know more than the coach about their son's swing, ... That dugout is going to get crowded.

I agree 100 %. The thread itself is an example of how parents-99.9 rational in every OTHER aspect of their lives-go crazy with their own kids. What happens is that if a team coach does not work with a kid and the kid is hitting poorly then the parent will go to the team coach and say how much the private instructor has been messing the kid up.And vice-versa. The blame has to go somewhere,anywhere but the dark alley where the problem is.

[CoachB25]

I know I'm coming off as a jerk in this thread. FYI, I have a child in high school who plays for a team/coach of which I don't have any influence. I've had a good career as a coach including a lot of success with hitting/hitters. I was made fun of (friends having fun) about what I would do if her coach tried to change her. So, this "scenerio" is not foreign to what is happening in my life. However, I understand who writes out the lineup. I understand the potential damage I can do to her playing time/career. I've told her, and she understands, that she has to be so good that no one would ever think of changing her swing. As most of you know, she hits 150 balls every night and on any given night much more. She talks in terms of PCR, (not technique but measurement) and what she did wrong on a "bad swing." She knows how to coach herself. In that way, she can "fix" anything anyone does to/for her.

[BoardMember]

Bryton, as a travel ball coach, AND a private instructor, I can tell you that the BEST way to handle this is to ask the travel coach to attend a private lesson with the instructor so he can help reinforce what is being taught. This will also allow the travel coach to interact with the hitting instructor, and give the travel coach some authority to coach your kid, making him happy.

You could prime the hitting instructor to address certain area's as "no-no's" during the lesson in front of the travel coach so he gets a subtle hint. The travel coach may then begin to interact with the hitting instructor, and ask questions, which will allow the instructor to tell the coach the "why-nots" of certain mechanics.

If the instructor is too far away to ask the travel coach to attend a lesson, it would be worth your while to pay the instructor a little extra to show up after a practice to give an on-field lesson, and ask the coach to hand around for the lesson so he can help reinforce the mechanics..........

This is by far the best way to meld the hitting coach and travel coach into a cohesive environment.

What you may find is the travel coach may pick up several tips from the hitting instructor and begin using them at practice, which might benefit the entire team...........

Of course the second best thing is to teach your kid to: "SMILE AND NOD"...........:nod:





BM - I totally understand both sides of the sword you are talking about. But as stated above in my reply here. There is a couple things his coach teaches that I don't agree with, and will mess up my sons swing. Again, I am just not sure how to approach this with his coach because, I am not one of those dads who just says not to coach my kid. And like I said, my kid is very coachable. But my son also understands what I, and the instructor working with him are trying to teach him, and what his coach is trying to teach him, and my son knows what his coach is trying to teach him is wrong.

So maybe you coaches out there can help me with how to approach this. Yes I am a parent, but a parent who knows the game, and the swing pretty well from countless hours of playing myself, but mostly from the countless hours of research and reading, learning from intruction and others, as well as countless hours of video analysis. Does that make me an expert? By no means, but I do know that I no more about the swing then my son's coach does. And again, with that said not sure how to approach this with his coach so as to not come across as " that parent" whos kid is not coachable. ANY ADVICE ON THIS?

[omg]

I know I'm coming off as a jerk in this thread. FYI, I have a child in high school who plays for a team/coach of which I don't have any influence. I've had a good career as a coach including a lot of success with hitting/hitters. I was made fun of (friends having fun) about what I would do if her coach tried to change her. So, this "scenerio" is not foreign to what is happening in my life. However, I understand who writes out the lineup. I understand the potential damage I can do to her playing time/career. I've told her, and she understands, that she has to be so good that no one would ever think of changing her swing. As most of you know, she hits 150 balls every night and on any given night much more. She talks in terms of PCR, (not technique but measurement) and what she did wrong on a "bad swing." She knows how to coach herself. In that way, she can "fix" anything anyone does to/for her.

You're not coming off as a jerk-I know you are just interested in doing what's best for your kid. In my opinion, a good team coach will stay away from hitting mechanics anyways and focus on the mental. All the technical stuff should be done in the winter/off-season. The team atmosphere does not lend itself to getting technical with 18 different players in batting.

[Bryton]

Bryton enjoy your son's career. I'd have more to say but I don't think you're hip to what I'm thinking. Some fast math - 18 kids on a team, 36 parents who know more than the coach about their son's swing, ... That dugout is going to get crowded.

CB25, please don't be afraid to say what you want to say. Whether I'm hip to what your thinking or not, you can say what you feel. With that said, I'm pretty sure there arn't 36 parents who think they know more than the coach, but I bet you would be suprised at how much some parents do know.

[Bryton]

CB25 - Let me throw this at you. You being a coach, and your daughter being in highschool, and you having no influence at all. And you "understand who writes the lineup card", and you "understand the potential damage I can do to her playing time/career". Lets say that your daughter has been very successful at the plate over the course of her career. Then her highschool coach, just because he can, wants to make adjustments to her swing because, maybe there is something that is different than what he teaches. Are you going to just idly sit by and watch him possibly do potential damage to your daughters swing/career, just because he feels that he needs to make a change to an already succesful swing? "I've told her, and she understands, that she has to be so good that no one would ever think of changing her swing." Arn't you basically saying here, that she should ignore the coach to whatever changes he is trying to make? But you said "Regarding the "expert" or private instructor, who's to say that I'm not an expert in doing what I do? Who's to say that I don't know more than your "expert?" Because John John has a private instructor, I'm supposed to keep my mouth shut and let him be? It's really very simple, if I can't coach a kid, he isn't making my team. If parents believe that I have to run any changes in his swing past them first, he isn't making my team. You might call this a "God Complex." I call it doing my job." Are you going to think this samething being her Dad, and probably coach, even if you know that the changes her highschool coach is going to make could be potentially detrimental to not only her highschool career, but maybe her college career as well. Are you just going to sit idly by? I can only assume you played a huge part in her swing and success as a father who just happens to be a coach. I'd like to hear your statement to this. I find it hard to believe that you would just sit by and watch your daughter go from being successful, to probably sitting on the bench do to the changes that were made by her coach. Especially when you know that she was already successful, and that changes really didn't need to be made at that time. Are you telling me your just going to sit on your hands and not say a word? Hmmmm. I've talked with someone on this forum, who's son was recruited by the college he went to because he was very successful at the plate. Other wise, why would they have recruited him. But according to this parent I've talked to, they made certain changes to his son's swing because, they didn't believe his swing was good enough, or they felt they need to make changes to it. Why? He was already successful, again, thats why they recruited him. After the changes they made, the dad told me his kid just could not hit the same anymore, and ended up leaving the team, because now he wasn't as successful as he was before and obviously wasn't playing. So basically, from what I can see, they hurt his college career, because they felt they needed to make changes to an already successful swing. Again, why? Would anyone like to elaborate on this and tell me they should have made changes to this young mans swing just to make changes. Just a situation that puts all of what this whole thread I started is all about.

BASEBALLDAD - I'm not complaining at all. This whole thread started out with a quote I read on here that kinda got under my skin. This whole thread was started as a hypothetical, that I just happened to bring in later with my son and a small situation that we are going through. I believe in the 4 coaches on my son's travel team. I also believe in everything they teach except for maybe a couple of tee drills, and some differences in how the swing is. And these couple things can really cause my son some damage to his swing.

BM - I agree with what you say about the private instructor and so on. What I find interesting is your quote "Of course the second best thing is to teach your kid to: "SMILE AND NOD"........... :)" This coming from a coach lol.

OMG - You say this to CB25 "You're not coming off as a jerk-I know you are just interested in doing what's best for your kid". Isn't that what we as parents are all trying to do. But yet, according to him, that can't happen when he is the coach. Read my above statement to CB25.

And CB, I am not trying to attack you. I just threw something at you from some quotes that you made, and I am very interested to see what you say, especially since it would effect your own kid.

[Mark H]

You're not coming off as a jerk-I know you are just interested in doing what's best for your kid. In my opinion, a good team coach will stay away from hitting mechanics anyways and focus on the mental. All the technical stuff should be done in the winter/off-season. The team atmosphere does not lend itself to getting technical with 18 different players in batting.

Well said.

[Mark H]

CB25 - Let me throw this at you. You being a coach, and your daughter being in highschool, and you having no influence at all. And you "understand who writes the lineup card", and you "understand the potential damage I can do to her playing time/career". Lets say that your daughter has been very successful at the plate over the course of her career. Then her highschool coach, just because he can, wants to make adjustments to her swing because, maybe there is something that is different than what he teaches. Are you going to just idly sit by and watch him possibly do potential damage to your daughters swing/career, just because he feels that he needs to make a change to an already succesful swing? "I've told her, and she understands, that she has to be so good that no one would ever think of changing her swing." Arn't you basically saying here, that she should ignore the coach to whatever changes he is trying to make? But you said "Regarding the "expert" or private instructor, who's to say that I'm not an expert in doing what I do? Who's to say that I don't know more than your "expert?" Because John John has a private instructor, I'm supposed to keep my mouth shut and let him be? It's really very simple, if I can't coach a kid, he isn't making my team. .

It IS your team. It's not unusual in fastpitch for a player to skip hs ball for just this reason focusing on academics and training in preparation for summer ball. Whatever any hs coach does to a kid's swing, I promise that coach isn't going to be offering to make up the difference in scholarship money if it doesn't work out. I suggest, as has been mentioned, the player should be required to listen to and understand the coach's swing mechanics ideas. Then let'em swing the way they want to and place them in the lineup or not according to their production. I've told kids and dads many times, if you are holding the wrong end of the bat, to use a little hyperbole, and leading the team in hitting, I'm going to leave you alone till I get six or seven kids to pass you. Then we'll talk. If I can't coach a half dozen kids well enough to pass you by, maybe I don't need to be messing with your mechanics.

[Ursa Major]

Bryton, there are some subtle issues that have been debated numerous times that you might benefit by reviewing. You seem to get it, then go off and make it seem like an either/or proposition. "Either you sit on your hands and do nothing, or you go tell off the coach." There are a zillion variables in each situation that dictate how you approach it.

But a common thread in your posts seems to be "if it ain't broke, a coach has no business fixing it." And the epitome of this attitude appears to be expressed in your anecdote about a successful high school hitter whose college coaches tried to change his swing and -- and this is a quote -- "the dad told me his kid just could not hit the same anymore". The same as what? He couldn't dominate college ball the same way he could high school pitching and the kid's dad decides that it couldn't be that junior had just hit the ceiling of his talent level, but instead concludes that those darn college coaches ruined his beautiful high school swing and that was the cause of his lack of success in college. What's wrong with this picture?

Their are two possible problems here. First, we have nothing on which to judge that you're right and your kid's coach is wrong. Maybe it's worthwhile to show us his great swing and try to describe how the coach wants to change it.

Second, is that just because a kid does well at a lower level with a certain type of mechanics doesn't mean that style will work at the next level. And until you give us more of an indication of what the dispute is, it's hard to see whether or not the advice that this coach is giving might be designed to help the kid adjust to the better pitching he's now facing. For example, a laggy but powerful linear swing may rock in LL ball, but as soon as the kid faces real curve balls, he'll wave over curve balls almost every time because it's difficult to stop or adjust an arm swing once it's launched. Until you really understand if there's an ulterior purpose in the coach's advice, it's hard to address it.

As Board Member suggests, there are numerous ways to approach this issue depending on the nature of the dispute and the personalities involved. But, gee, if it's travel ball, you guys are likely paying some heavy fees, so I'd think you'd have a bit of leverage with the coach. And, as with any appeal to authority, approach with an open mind and a bit of flattery. Maybe something like -- "I see you're suggesting that my son do X, which is different than what I've learned from quite a few years of work. But, since you've been doing this longer than I have, I'd like to learn from you why you think it's important and see if I can pick up something. And maybe I can explain why I'd thought differently, and we can see if there's something I'm missing or maybe the best way to figure out the best timing to work this into his swing ..." ((Yeah, like maybe after the season is over and I'm rid of you...)) And, maybe you'll learn something -- the truly best coaches and instructors I've met on this site are always looking for new ways to teach.

Maybe the coach isn't really trying to teach the kid to incorporate that particular idea in his longterm game swing, but is just having him make an adustment to cure a separate flaw and then will have your son drop that cue or mechanic when the first problem is cured. (For example, I had one large (okay, tubby) kid last year who could hit when he rotated, but all too often just slapped at the ball. Finally, out of a worry that he was just going to have a lousy, un-fun season, I just told him to "squash the bug" as he went up to the plate, to get him to put his hips into each swing, and it improved him. Did it hurt to have to utter those words? Yes, I felt as filthy as if I'd gone to a game and rooted for the Dodgers. But spinning was better than incomplete hip turns, and it helped him limp through the rest of the season with a few more hits.

Another random tip based on experience: Ursa Minor has a tendency to upper cut, which is caused by dropping his hands and back shoulder before he launches his swing (which I know because I've videotaped at 60 FPS his swings, good and bad). One of his coaches is sure this is because Minor has a very pronounced tilt on low pitches (that's the one PCR component that he really gets). The coach is convinced that it's the tilt that is causing the problem, and I could try to convince him otherwise by showing him the slo-mo videos, but it's not worth the fight because this guy has no authority over his playing time. But I have found video to be helpful in alerting coaches and dads as to what their kids are really doing when they swing. So maybe you can email the coach clips of your kid doing it the way he's been taught and the way the coach teaches, and then convince the coach that his ideas just aren't worth trying to impose on your kid in the short term.

[omg]

But, gee, if it's travel ball, you guys are likely paying some heavy fees, so I'd think you'd have a bit of leverage with the coach ...

Really? Is this thinking prevalent? The more you pay the more "leverage" you have?

[Bryton]

URSA - First of all, most of what I am getting at with this thread is all hypothetical. Also I would never go tell a coach off. I would always approach them and talk to them, and actually I have.

I have discussed hitting after practice of what he (son's coach) believes in a swing, and what I do. I pretty much got the coach parent look. You know what I mean. Like, I'm clueless. The perception is that parents are clueless, and "Im the coach, I know what I'm talking about". Yeah ok, not always. There are parents out there who take a lot of interest in their kids sports, and who take the time to learn and teach their kids.

Also, I'm not saying "if it isn't broke don't fix it". Yes, there are minor cues or adjustments that a coach can and should make. I have no problem with that. Look I agree with most of what you are saying, trust me. I have been redoing my son's swing since summer, knowing full well that even though he hit .440 last year in 12U, that his swing wasn't going to cut it as he moved along and got older. His swing wasn't horrible by any means, he naturally had a decent swing, but I know that it needed to have changes just as you stated for as he gets older and starts seeing better pitching, and different pitches.

The main purpose of this thread for me was, I seen a quote, something of the nature, "that part of the swing would be gone on day one if he was my player". And what he was talking about was nothing more then he didn't like that kids are already in a load and stride position before the pitcher pitches the ball. Already in a set position. I have seen a lot of hitting instructors teach this way. This could be an issue, or it could not with some kids. Depending on how the kid does with this perticular swing. But it's not bat drag, and it's not an arm swing that you are trying to correct. So just because this coach didn't believe in this perticular part of the swing proccess, that is "gone on day one". What if the kid is successful with that. Why change and mess with it. That is what got me started on this thread, that "sometimes changes don't need to be made, just because a coach doesn't agree with a certain part of a swing", even though the kid is successful. That was pretty much the whole premiss to starting this thread. Thats all I was trying to get it. Plus, I do believe that there are a lot of coaches out there that have that so called "god complex" when it comes to coaching. Who just arn't open to any ideas, suggestions, or even want to know if and what the parent knows or doesn't know.

Anyway, I'm off my soap box with this. The one issue I do have with my son, I will have no problem handling. Again, most of what I said was hypothetical, and or a question to someone.

[Bryton]

Really? Is this thinking prevalent? The more you pay the more "leverage" you have?


OMG, I wouldn't say it's "the more leverage you have". But I would add that the parents should be allowed to have some input, or atleast be able to communicate with the coaches, because, yes we are spending a lot of money, and there may be other monies spent on outside instruction, that you don't want messed with by the coach because he may have a different coaching style. So yes, I feel that a parent should have some input.

[omg]

OMG, I wouldn't say it's "the more leverage you have". But I would add that the parents should be allowed to have some input, or atleast be able to communicate with the coaches, because, yes we are spending a lot of money, and there may be other monies spent on outside instruction, that you don't want messed with by the coach because he may have a different coaching style. So yes, I feel that a parent should have some input.

May have a different coaching style? EVERY coach is different. Parents should have input about the safety and emotional well-being of their kid but should they REALLY have input on hitting technique?

"......other monies spent on outside instruction, that you don't want messed with by the coach...". I'm just shaking my head at that.

No matter how bad you think the coach is or how knowledgeable or experienced you are you cannot be a mini-Jerry Jones or George Steinbrenner.
It is your turn to coordinate the post-game snacks. Can you say,"chips or pretzels?"

[Bryton]

Sorry bro, I have to disagree with you a little on this. YES, I do have a say when it comes to my child and his sports. Im not going to just bring the "chips and pretzels". Am I going to be coaching from the sidelines during a practice or game? No! Will I be a mini Jerry Jones, or George Steinbrenner? At the pro level no. At the amateur level, yeah you better believe it IF I FEEL THE NEED TOO. I pay the money for my kid to play, your darn right I will have some input IF I FEEL I NEED TOO. But if I believe in something other then what the coach is teaching, or I have outside instruction, you can better believe I will let the coach know, and talk to him about it so he understands where we are coming from. It's my childs future at stake, not his or yours, whether its in sports or life in general. So I guess you better "just keep shaking your head". I'm sure he will give me his opinion if he doesn't agree with something, and I am more than open to him trying what he needs to. Again, be rest assured that if I don't agree with it, I will let him know, and talk to him about it. Why shouldn't I have a say if his coach teaches a Linear or Rotational swing, and I believe in either a Linear or Rotational swing? After all, I am paying the monies for my kid to play.

I'm shaking my head that you would let a coach possibly ruin your kid at a sport, especially if you know what he is being taught is not correct. And especially if your the one shelling out the money for your child to play. This isn't the Pros. My kid isn't being payed to play. Your paying, I'm paying, everyone else is paying.

Didn't you just say this to CB25? "You're not coming off as a jerk-I know you are just interested in doing what's best for your kid". But didn't you just say something completely different to me? Come on, you can't speak out of both sides of your mouth.

You also say...."In my opinion, a good team coach will stay away from hitting mechanics anyways and focus on the mental. All the technical stuff should be done in the winter/off-season. The team atmosphere does not lend itself to getting technical with 18 different players in batting". So then, who teaches the kid to hit? I would say to this a combination of people. Coaches, hitting instructors, and yes even parents. I will promise you, that there is not one person that knows my kids swing better than I do. Why? Because I have spent countless hours of working with him, and watching countless hours of video of his swing that I have taken. Am I to say that I am not open to coaches teaching my kid. Of course not. Teach and coach away, but if I feel that there is something that they are teaching him that I don't agree with, and I know will ulitmately be detrimental to his game or whatever, yes, you can bet I will have a nice rational converstation with the coach and explain where I am coming from, and why I don't agree with what he is teaching my kid. If you wouldn't then, I guess you are either a better man then me, or far more nieve.

First, I think my son and his team have 4 outstanding coaches. 2nd, I commend them in that, they have told us we are more then welcome to get outside instruction. 3rd, they said to us that ultimately they are our kids and we need to make what we think is the best decision for our kids and their interest. 4th, ultimately I don't really say much, and I let the coaches coach. But I will speak up if I feel the need too. I think you would be a fool not too if you feel the need too.

I'm sure most people and coaches on here will not agree with me, and thats fine. I have no problem with that. But this is how I feel. I am not some idiot parent that doesn't know what he is talking about. Do I know it all when it comes to baseball, the game, or even the swing? No, but I am constantly learning to make sure that I do, because ultimately I will do what I feel is best for my kid. It is my responsibility too. Could I be a coach? Absolutely. But I choose not too. But because I don't coach, doesn't mean that I don't know anything either.

[omg]

Alright, this is getting good! We WILL have to agree to disagree. As I said, I don't think you are a jerk because even the most self-actualized of human beings lose their minds when it comes to their own kids. I think among the points you are missing is baseball is a TEAM game with many OTHER kids and parents in the mix. Your attitude is that you view the team as a vehicle for YOUR son to succeed. If the coach is good YOUR son is just 1/15 or 1/18 of the equation.

And you keep bringing up MONEY-how does money factor in? Baseball is a sport-not a financial enterprise.

[Jake Patterson]

We had a HS coach that once said (Name will remain anonymous):

"Coach you sound like you think your God out here (on the field)."

Coach turned and leered at the player and said, "Out here son - I'm not God, he's the one picking up the equipment!"

LOL

[BoardMember]

Not sure how this thread got to where it got, but I believe in the travel ball areana, this situation is not all that uncommon.

Serious players usually have private instructors. And it's a delicate balance when dealing with this issue. But is isn't something that CAN'T be handled correctly........

I'd like to chime in here on the "paying" leverage that was brought up.

I've never understood how parents mis-understand WHAT they are paying for.

Most travel team budgets are simply a reflection of the teams expenses for the teams season.

All you are paying for is your share of these expenses. This payment is not a payment for playing time. It also doesn't carry any leverage for the parent or player.

IT IS NOT A FEE. It is simply a division of the teams expenses that you are obligated to share.

IF you are choosen for a travel team, it is your obligation to pay your share of the team expenses. You are not "paying" anyone for leverage.

Infact, you are not paying to play. You are paying because YOU chose the roster spot offered. THAT'S IT..........

IF you don't pay this share, you are replaced........There is NO leverage when paying your share for a roster spot.........:D

[omg]

What is a coach to do?-teach this kid linear,that kid rotational.... or just leave everyone alone?

Well-intentioned parents get carried away. I think this is a good forum because, hey, I don't have any stock in Bryton's situation. I'm just trying to be anonymously helpful. I take him at his word that he basically seldom meddles. But the money notion is troubling as is the "tennis dad" attitude.

[TG Coach]

Are you going to just idly sit by and watch him possibly do potential damage to your daughters swing/career, just because he feels that he needs to make a change to an already succesful swing?

It's a priviledge, not a right to play ball. If you don't like what the coach has to offer and feel there is potential damage to be done, you have the right to pull your kid from the team.

The great thing about travel ball is with proper research (and demand for your kid) you can find the right environment. With school ball, what you see is what you get. Sometimes decisions have to be made. That said, I've never seen school coaches force changes on successful players. My oldest has been through the process. My youngest is now in high school.

[TG Coach]

OMG, I wouldn't say it's "the more leverage you have". But I would add that the parents should be allowed to have some input, or atleast be able to communicate with the coaches, because, yes we are spending a lot of money, and there may be other monies spent on outside instruction, that you don't want messed with by the coach because he may have a different coaching style. So yes, I feel that a parent should have some input.

You are not a player agent for your son. When your son makes a team that does not entitle you to input. It doesn't matter whether you are spending a $50 activity fee for school ball or several thousand for travel. The money only provides an opportunity for your son to be on the team. If you're unhappy with the program, the choice you have is to pull your son from the program.

If there's something to be communicated to the coach it should be through your son. He's the member of the team, not you. He's a teen, not a little kid. Don't be a helicopter parent.

[TG Coach]

At the amateur level, yeah you better believe it IF I FEEL THE NEED TOO. I pay the money for my kid to play, your darn right I will have some input IF I FEEL I NEED TOO.

Wow! I know a lot of coaches who wouldn't touch this kid even if he's the next coming of A-Rod because of the dad.

But if I believe in something other then what the coach is teaching, or I have outside instruction, you can better believe I will let the coach know, and talk to him about it so he understands where we are coming from.

The response you will get from a lot of coaches would be: I guess you chose the wrong team. At this point I'd tell the parent if I can find someone to replace the financial aspect of his contribution to the team, I'd be glad to release the the player from the team. If he wants to leave anyway, that's fine too.

I think we need to retitle the thread ... The Parent's Helicopter Complex.

[Bryton]

I think we need to retitle the thread ... The Parent's Helicopter Complex.[/QUOTE]

LMAO!!!!!!!

[jima]

I'm not sure why it happens but it absolutely does.

In some cases people don't understand what the major league swing looks like. They think it's a linear swing, and when they see a rotational swing they think it's won't scale because it doesn't fit their pre-conceived notion of what a good swing looks like.

However, I don't understand why they can't see that the rotational swing that they see in a HS player isn't the same rotational swing that they see in a ML player. Maybe it's that they don't spend enough time looking at ML swings.

snore...you continue to beat to death those linear coaches...haven't seen to many on this forum Chris...would you care to tell us who they are?

[TG Coach]

You can laugh all you want about it. Ask coaches about it. Ask teachers and principals about it. Ask college professors and administrators about it. I even know of a high draft choice minor leaguer whose mother called the MLB front office and told management her son can't pitch with a sprained ankle. When there was another issue the following year the organization sent him back to Rookie A ball his second year to send a message to the boy and his mommy.

[TL_Dad]

Bryton,
Why don't you put video of your son on here and let the experts here see what you are talking about. Show everyone what you are talking about.

[Bryton]

Bryton,
Why don't you put video of your son on here and let the experts here see what you are talking about. Show everyone what you are talking about.

The issue is not with my son's swing TL. So why would I need to put up a video of him.The issue is with a tee drill that I don't agree with that the coach does. Nothing more. Plus, there are people on this site who have seen my son's swing both pre and post.

TG COACH, Even though I say because I pay the money for my kid to play, I am not nieve to the workings of it all ok lol. I am fully aware that because I pay it doesn't give me the right to interfer with the coaching ok. But if I have an opinion or an issue, I will take it up with the coaches. I do have that right. It isn't a dictatorship. I have coached sports myself and know how it goes. I have never interfered. I am not one of those "dads" lol. You all can take a chill pill. I know exactly how to handle the situation. As a matter of fact, its really not that big of an issue. Our coaches are great, and are open to us parents talking to them about things. I don't mettle when it comes to my kid and what the coaches teach ok. I have just used a bunch of hypothetical scenarios in this whole thread to get different points across, with the exception of the 1 tee drill I have spoke about.
Nothing more.

Good day everyone. All just in fun

[CoachB25]

Bryton, I apologize since I missed your reply to me. It would serve no positive purpose for me to state what I really think. I would suggest to you that when you want to come with the line that you pay the coaches salary later on when your son gets to high school that you're going to learn some hard lessons. Of course you might not be dealing with a coach such as myself that would have in your opinion a "God Complex." JMHO!

Regarding my child, some people on this site and SE's site know about her year last year as a freshman starting varsity at a school where only 4 other freshman have ever started. She did exactly what her coach told her to do and I stayed out of it. That's right and not one time did I second guess the coach in hers or other's hearing. I don't know how you inferred that my suggestion to have her be so good that no coach would mess with her swing would then translate to her not listening to her coach. She is highly coachable, listens and does what she is told and knows hitting about as well as most players I've ever coached in a few decades of coaching. A few of which made it to the majors. Since you've brought this up and have asked about my child, recently she was asked to be a "demonstrator" at a national coaches clinic. We were told up front that she would be asked to demonstrate some concepts that I don't agree with. My response was that she needs to learn as much as she can and so this clinic was a great opportunity for her since she'd be demonstrating for several D-I college coaches. She came away with questions and so, that lead to understanding and learning.

Again, good luck to you and your son. I'm looking forward to the threads down the road when you keep us updated on your son's high school career.

[Ursa Major]

Bryton, you're ducking and bobbing here so much it's hard to know either (a) what situation you're actually talking about (and if it really happened -- [what is the point of the retreat to "I was only talking hypothetically"???]), and (b) what you really believe. You stated several times that coaches shouldn't change what works, but then you responded to my email by saying that you understood that what sometimes works for now needs to be changed to let the kid develop to the next level. Still, we're not getting any sense that you understand where the line is between those changes that may be necessary for the kid to move on and those that don't. Because I'm a professional wordsmith, I hesitate to criticize the grammar or diction of those who post here. But, I think it's fair to point out that your lack of clarity in what you say gives a pretty fair suspicion that you're not really understanding the distinction between good coaching changes and those that require some kind of parental intervention. At this point, it's hard to know what you really believe or contend is going on with your son's coaches other than maybe to conclude that you just hate to "lose" an argument.

And since you know insist (inconsistently with your prior posts) that you in fact really like the coaches and know how to deal with them, one is left with the head-scratching question, "What IS the point of this whole thread?"

[Ursa Major]

Since I kind brought up the question of whether the parents should have some voice in what the travel team coaches teach because they're paying for it, I feel I should address some of the further important and valid points that were raised in response.

It's important to bear in mind that, in the world of travel ball, there are two extreme ends of the spectrum. At one end, you have a team that is formed by the current players' parents in order to get better instruction, competition and exposure than they could get in local rec ball. There can't be any dispute that these parents should have a major impact upon what and how the kids are taught, as it's these parents who designed the program in the first place solely to help their kids improve.

At the opposite end is an ongoing team or group of teams with a perpetual existence whose coaches (whose own kids may have moved on to higher levels of baseball) run the program and make it very clear what their philosophies and teaching agendas are. For them, the parents (and, hopefully, the kid) have signed on to the gendan and are in no position to criticize anything short of the most glaring mistakes. Even then, the parents can at least comment on belatedly discovered teachings that seem to be ineffective or cruel.

Just like every charity has a board of directors or trustees that decides how the managers can best serve the constituency that the charity's solicitation commercials promote, the parents are entitle d to some voice in making sure that the there is a real connection between the coaches' teaching and management and the welfare of the kids. Even a rec ball league may contend that they somehow are "representatives" of this City in which it plays. A travel ball team has no such further agenda -- it's sole job is to help the kids improve and to give them a good experience. A youth coach who clearly is making decisions based on his own desire to be "right" or to have his judgments validate can and should be subject to the criticisms of the parents -- even without the fact that the parents are paying big $$ to be in the program, it is their kids whose futures are at stake. But, the parents too have to be responsible, to make sure that their criticisms are arguably valid and not simply to push an agenda like, "I not only paid the fees but also contributed the big money to the team's equipment fund so that they could buy Thunderbolt 2001 brooms, so my boy Draco gets to be the seeker." (Ooops, sorry, wrong sport.)

[CoachB25]

Bryton, since this is a hypothetical, I was thinking last night how your son would do in my practices and how you'd respond. Since we design drills IN OUR SYSTEM for each individual, your son would have to come in with his own drills. That would be fine. Now, since you don't want him messed up, he'd have to do all his drill work alone since his partner would be required to do our stuff and obviously some of that information would leak and your son would hear it. Now, say a 3 hour practice. Your son has roughly done half of it on hitting without instruction. Time for his BP on the field. We never throw BP without instruction and a goal for each hitter. So 18-20 kids have been instructed. Your son now walks up. "Hit 25 and out." Next! There are others in this group that are being coached/instructed each day. Some of them are progressing. I can tell you that you've turned the situation in to a we (coaching staff) versus them (parent and instructor) since I'm talking reality along with this scenario. The instant that the player that they coach closes the gap, he's going to play since they can coach him in practice and on the field. Call it the "God's Complex" or whatever you want but I believe most will agree that this will be the reality. You go to the AD or the Principal or superintendent and tell them that the coach should be fired. They are going to look at you like you're from Mars. The reason you give is that don't play you son. The AD talks to the coach and he in informed that the coach is not allowed to coach the boy. NUFF SAID! Now, btw, you've also gained a reputation as "that dad." I'm suggesting that not only is it a bad thing to be considered "that dad," it is going to follow your son around in every other sport. Does anyone disagree with this?

Again, good luck. I can't wait to see how all of this plays out.

[GetYourBestSwing]

This is a good topic.

I'd like comment on just a couple different perspectives that I face coaching college players that come in and then coaching a summer league.


In our program, when frosh come in in the fall, obviously we've seen the players play in high school.... games, showcases, wherever......and while watching you take mental notes on what you think should be done differently.

however, we let them fail before we start a dialogue and changing things. I don't want to mess with a kid who did hit .475 with 7 or 8 HR's in high school .... who isn't used to failing.... I don't want to change things with him because maybe we don't HAVE too and also his mindset isn't where I want it to make changes. he isn't going to be as accepting as that point when he think's he is the man, ya know. lol
once they struggle.... and MOST do, not ALL, but MOST will in the fall scrimmages and whatnot..... once they fail is when the dialogue for change and teaching begins. When they struggle a bit and you show them something and they make an improvement on it.... they are going to be VERY open to the teaching now and begin the process.


IN summer ball, it's other coaches players that they have invested there time in.... so I am not going to change ONE thing with that player. Thats not my responsibility and I wouldn't want my players going out and changing things with someone unless I knew about it.
However, when they come to me and ask a question.... they open up the floodgates for throwing out ideas and doing a little teaching. Once they begin the conversation it gets fun.

it's really cool and interesting when it's the best of the best that WANT to get better and want to learn and want to put in the time to get better. I don't think that's a coincidence. lol

[mudvnine]

. . . and pretty much received the same responses as found in this thread . . . here's the link to my old thread. (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81019)

Well, here's what finally happened . . .

We never said anything and my son listened to the coaches and tried to implement their contrary teachings; at that time it was limited to strictly hitting. After we got past the early stride/leaking problem, the head coach started in on "take the knob to the ball" using primarily the upper body and pretty much took his lower body out of the swing.

During the summer season he my son returned to his collegiate TB team (coached by one of his college's assistant coaches) and during the first part of the season he hit like crap, so much so the coach asked him what he had change . . . WHAT!!!! This guy has to know what his head coach at the college was teaching.

So we went back to the cage and got his rotational swing back and he started pounding the ball again and everybody was happy again (even the coach). After the previous college season, each player was called into the coach's office and given a run down of the season and what he wanted each player to work on in the off season . . . my son (a catcher) was told to work on getting bigger and to work on his arm and "pop" time.

If JD had a weakness in his game it is what the coach identified and we set out to improve things. As a family we flew across the country to work with Coach Dave Weaver in New Hampshire and we are so very happy we did. Coach Weaver proved to be THE best catching coach in the country and in a few short days took over .20 of a second off my boy's "pop" time, which I felt was phenomenal in just a couple of partial days of training.

My son returned to college with some size and a new found confidence in his arm. During pre-season he was throwing in the 1.9s and was 2nd out of the 12 catchers trying out and he said he was probably hitting better then any of them. This is when the trouble started . . .

About the third week, the coach went back to his “oppo” hitting and since my son’s opposite field is LC (he hits left-handed and likes being on top of the plate) the coach once again started in with his “knob to the ball” and “throw your hands to the ball” teachings; the new “pitching/catching” coach decided he knew more then Coach Weaver, changed his mechanics and took him for #2 throwing 1.9’s to #5 or 6, throwing 2.25’s.

My son finally had enough and told me that “If I do what they want, I won’t make the team and if I don’t do what they want I won’t make it that way either” and walked away from the program frustrated, disheartened, and disappointed. He says he may transfer to a new school next year and try to play, but I don’t see the fire in his eyes anymore and I kind of doubt it.

This was a kid that for 10 years lived, ate, and slept baseball and one season of crap-ass coaching pretty much wiped that out. Pretty disgusting if you ask me . . . Bryton, do whatever it takes to get your son in the right spot with the right coaching; if you don’t feel comfortable, there are always others teams with other coach that have the same philosophy as you . . . all you have to do is find them

All the best,
Mud

[omg]

. . . and pretty much received the same responses as found in this thread . . . here's the link to my old thread. (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81019)

Well, here's what finally happened . . .

We never said anything and my son listened to the coaches and tried to implement their contrary teachings; at that time it was limited to strictly hitting. After we got past the early stride/leaking problem, the head coach started in on "take the knob to the ball" using primarily the upper body and pretty much took his lower body out of the swing.

During the summer season he my son returned to his collegiate TB team (coached by one of his college's assistant coaches) and during the first part of the season he hit like crap, so much so the coach asked him what he had change . . . WHAT!!!! This guy has to know what his head coach at the college was teaching.

So we went back to the cage and got his rotational swing back and he started pounding the ball again and everybody was happy again (even the coach). After the previous college season, each player was called into the coach's office and given a run down of the season and what he wanted each player to work on in the off season . . . my son (a catcher) was told to work on getting bigger and to work on his arm and "pop" time.

If JD had a weakness in his game it is what the coach identified and we set out to improve things. As a family we flew across the country to work with Coach Dave Weaver in New Hampshire and we are so very happy we did. Coach Weaver proved to be THE best catching coach in the country and in a few short days took over .20 of a second off my boy's "pop" time, which I felt was phenomenal in just a couple of partial days of training.

My son returned to college with some size and a new found confidence in his arm. During pre-season he was throwing in the 1.9s and was 2nd out of the 12 catchers trying out and he said he was probably hitting better then any of them. This is when the trouble started . . .

About the third week, the coach went back to his “oppo” hitting and since my son’s opposite field is LC (he hits left-handed and likes being on top of the plate) the coach once again started in with his “knob to the ball” and “throw your hands to the ball” teachings; the new “pitching/catching” coach decided he knew more then Coach Weaver, changed his mechanics and took him for #2 throwing 1.9’s to #5 or 6, throwing 2.25’s.

My son finally had enough and told me that “If I do what they want, I won’t make the team and if I don’t do what they want I won’t make it that way either” and walked away from the program frustrated, disheartened, and disappointed. He says he may transfer to a new school next year and try to play, but I don’t see the fire in his eyes anymore and I kind of doubt it.

This was a kid that for 10 years lived, ate, and slept baseball and one season of crap-ass coaching pretty much wiped that out. Pretty disgusting if you ask me . . . Bryton, do whatever it takes to get your son in the right spot with the right coaching; if you don’t feel comfortable, there are always others teams with other coach that have the same philosophy as you . . . all you have to do is find them

All the best,
Mud

I applaud you and your son for all of the effort you all have put into the game. You have written a very interesting post. I have seen your end result numerous times however from my perspective it would be very rare for the end result to have been caused by what you allege, not to say that in your situation it may be true. There is just not that much tinkering with succesful players. To say that in the third week the coach started "his crap-ass coaching" may actually have been that in the 3rd week batters started seeing live pitching in intra-squads...

It sounds to me that your son is a pretty good player but may be playing at al level above him (12 catchers?). I've seen boys (and fathers) go for a prestigous/name school when a lesser school would be a FAR better baseball fit. Also, kids want to go where their friends go and like it if the school has a big football and basketball team. That is understandable.

[mudvnine]

I applaud you and your son for all of the effort you all have put into the game. You have written a very interesting post. I have seen your end result numerous times however from my perspective it would be very rare for the end result to have been caused by what you allege, not to say that in your situation it may be true. There is just not that much tinkering with succesful players. To say that in the third week the coach started "his crap-ass coaching" may actually have been that in the 3rd week batters started seeing live pitching in intra-squads...

It sounds to me that your son is a pretty good player but may be playing at al level above him (12 catchers?). I've seen boys (and fathers) go for a prestigous/name school when a lesser school would be a FAR better baseball fit. Also, kids want to go where their friends go and like it if the school has a big football and basketball team. That is understandable.

OMG, what I'm trying to convey to dads/players here is that BEFORE you accept or agree to anything with a college or TB team, make sure that you are in agreement with the teaching of the coaches and philosophy of the program.

My son was at another school that had recruited out of HS him and transferred to his current school mid-session last year (actually attending both schools for a semester) after he ended up playing for the assistant coach on a collegiate TB team and was lured away by this coach. It looked like he would red-shirt at both schools, but his current school was closer and he felt that playing for the assistant coach would give him a leg up either immediately or in the future.

We never spent the time with the head coach as we did with the other school and knew very little of his teachings methods and coaching ability. Just so you know, we're not talking about any D1 schools here, but rather SoCal JUCO schools that, although nothing too prestigious here, play some pretty decent baseball, with many players moving on to 4 year schools and a few to the big leagues.

So when I talk about 12 kids, my son and one other were returners, one was a D1 transfer, several were recruited incoming freshman, and all the others were walk-ons. I understand what you are saying about playing levels and think the level was just fine, but the fit with the coaches and program was not. This is why I say, FIND OUT FIRST about for who you will be playing for and make sure everyone is on the same wavelength regarding philosophies before you commit and find out that it was not what was expected.

There is just not that much tinkering with successful players. To say that in the third week the coach started "his crap-ass coaching" may actually have been that in the 3rd week batters started seeing live pitching in intra-squads...

The TB team he was playing on was in a league of returning college kids and incoming freshman and both season he adjusted very well to the "next level" hitting in the #3 or 5 spot the whole first season and why I think the AC asked him to transfer in the first year. It did take a while to get his swing back the second season, but once we did, he was back in the #5 spot and driving the ball like that of old. Now I guess "successful" is subjective, but in my opinion changing a hitting style of a player who is driving the ball well up the middle and to the right side, so this left-handed hitter could ultimately "push" the ball to the left-side makes very little sense from a coaching standpoint and my reason for defining it as "crap-ass".

All I'm saying is talk before you play . . . once you're on the team is not the time to find out that the coach teaches a different method then you are playing. There are lots of teams out there, so take the time early, before misunderstanding and disappointment overshadow the experience and enjoyment.

[GetYourBestSwing]

Did your son ever go in and talk to his coach?


Just speaking as a college coach..... we don't take any questions from parents about playing time or anything to do with their son's swing mechanics.

If said parent works in a bank.... I don't walk into his bank and question why he is giving a loan to one of his customers.

The baseball field is our office.... teaching baseball is our profession.

Now.... we WILL discuss ANY issues with the PLAYER. We update a depth chart once or twice a week so the players always know where they stand.

if they EVER have questions on mechanics..... which has never happened in a closed door confrontational situation or want to be diong it differently than we tell them........ they can always feel free to ask.

We have a responsibility to teach the young boys at 18, 19 to become men. Part of becoming a man is coming to the office, closing the door, and talk about whatever issues you may have. Don't pout and whine to mommy and daddy about what coach says.... You can come in and talk to us about it, about ANYTHING, at ANYTIME.


Also, there are THOUSANDS of colleges to play baseball. If you don't like what coach is telling you, transfer. I wouldn't ever want a player playing for us anyway that questioned what we did on or off the field. It isn't the place for them if they do and we would very clearly tell them this.

[omg]

I know what you are saying about the right "fit" especially for a catcher. Sometimes it is just rotten luck that a kid doesn't get to play and a coach CAN easily make an incorrect choice about which player deserves to play. There is some guesswork there and they may not get it right. But, seldom, if ever, does this have anything to do with hitting or throwing mechanics or anything along these lines and I think you may be rationalizing this part.

Players on the "bubble" do sometimes make the mistake of brown-nosing the coach or assistant coach by showing the coach how much they are following the coaches teaching in an attempt to get in the line-up. This is why you see all the subs who take bp before the starters all have fundamentally perfect stances and swings while the #3,4, and 5 hitters all have distinctive, variously unorthodox styles:they take instruction as advice but they trust their own feeling.

Bottom line: for personal fundamentals coaches always allow leeway but for team fundamentals it IS their way or the highway.

[mudvnine]

But, seldom, if ever, does this have anything to do with hitting or throwing mechanics or anything along these lines and I think you may be rationalizing this part.

This might be the case, but when he uses one coach's throwing mechanics of putting his throwing hand behind his glove with runners on base and is successful, and then is told by his college coach to put his throwing hand behind his back . . . I’d say that that is a pretty big difference in mechanics and at least to me, makes a pretty big difference in pop times.

As far as hitting, he grew up learning and ingraining a rotational style of hitting and went to a coach that thought linear mechanics were the way to go to get his hitters to work the opposite field. Again, to me a pretty big difference in philosophies . . . whether you call them “personal” or “team” fundamentals.

I (he) may be trying to rationalize, but when one is recruited for doing things one way, I believe it only natural to scratch one’s head when changes are made to fit a system or mechanics that is not what you were doing prior to them bringing you in.

Players on the "bubble" do sometimes make the mistake of brown-nosing the coach or assistant coach by showing the coach how much they are following the coaches teaching in an attempt to get in the line-up.

Hence the reason he finally decided to walk-away . . . he didn’t feel comfortable “brown-nosing”, since he felt it was the contradicting concepts that put him “on the bubble” and I don’t blame him. In fact I’m proud that he was his own man and choose integrity over compromise of beliefs; I think it was just another of life’s lessons, that I think will only help him in the future. :nod: :crossfingers: