Epstein's Fence Drill

[Chris O'Leary]

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[wrstdude]

Are you saying that's Jeter on the right?

[Chris O'Leary]

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[Deemax]

Are you saying that's Jeter on the right?

It looks more like Jeter on the left :D

[Erik]

I have been trying to get up to speed on the problems with Epstein's fence drill.

In the clip below, I can definitely see the front elbow get too far away from the body after the point of contact...

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis/enforcer-glauss-disconnect.gif

...although you could argue that what Epstein does on the left somewhat resembles Jeter's front elbow angle through the point of contact. But of course Jeter's swing is a bit atypical.

I think a big part of the problem is that Epstein sets the fence correct relative to the plate but then crowds the plate, which force the chicken winging.

Could you fix the drill by setting up in a normal position relative to the plate? Would the drill then have merit?

Of course, that begs the question of whether casting is really as big a problem as Epstein says it is.


This drill IMO is a bad bad drill. This drill kills the back arm and helps eliminate the natural swing!! This fence drill IMO is poison. I'm surprised this drill is still being promoted JMO. :crazy:silent:






EL

[callyjr]

the drill is rarely used. Even Epstein doesn't use it. Its introduced to the kids if they are having trouble keeping the front elbow bent.

Again another attempt to put down Epstein. It seizes to amaze me why. Whats the deal Chris?

[ssarge]

the drill is rarely used. Even Epstein doesn't use it. Its introduced to the kids if they are having trouble keeping the front elbow bent.

Cally:

Has something changed?

The guy has three drills (Torque, Numbers, Enforcer), and it is one of them. It is labeled as the "Enforcer" drill on it's own CD (one of 3 CDs) in my set. And on that CD - maybe it was the earlier VHS, but pretty sure it was the CD - Epstein states that it is a drill he ALWAYS uses when guys return for follow-up training. He calls it essential. And he's sold what? 60K CD sets? I think his comments are legacy by now.


I don't think Chris's post was inaccurate, nor does he come across to me as putting down Epstein. FWIW.

Regards

Scott

[LAball]

Fence drill would be good for OHdad. His kids unlocks the wrist too soon.

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/26/l_2e2c44381ffa49829eb0714e2b854053.gif

[LAball]

It may not be THE swing but it gives a kids a feel of a different swing in trying to understand THE swing

[1chapterahead]

Fence drill would be good for OHdad. His kids unlocks the wrist too soon.

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/26/l_2e2c44381ffa49829eb0714e2b854053.gifYes.
conservation of angular momentum
The principle that the total angular momentum of a system has constant magnitude and direction if the system is subjected to no external force.

[jima]

Yes.
conservation of angular momentum
The principle that the total angular momentum of a system has constant magnitude and direction if the system is subjected to no external force.

If I could out how to implement it, the fence drill could really help my premature cast in my golf swing.

[1chapterahead]

If I could out how to implement it, the fence drill could really help my premature cast in my golf swing.Ben Hogans Five Lessons. Best golf book ever.

[Chris O'Leary]

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[Chris O'Leary]

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[Knights Baseball]

From what i have seen of this drill, it looks like Epstein set up way to close to the fence. He is having to use that weird swing to get the bat through.

[1chapterahead]

I don't think so. I think the kid would clear the fence, even if he set up close to the fence, given the vertical-ish plane of his swing.Chris, where is his power v?

[1chapterahead]

From what i have seen of this drill, it looks like Epstein set up way to close to the fence. He is having to use that weird swing to get the bat through.It's intentional.

[Chris O'Leary]

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[Chris O'Leary]

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[Knights Baseball]

What do you mean by intentional, do you mean that that is how the drill is supposed to be performed. I know that everyone i have seen use this drill says to make sure that there is no more room than the length of the bat, this is accomplished by pinning the bat between your stomach and the fence. That is supposedly the proper distance. It looks like he is way closer

[Erik]

Fence drill would be good for OHdad. His kids unlocks the wrist too soon.

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/26/l_2e2c44381ffa49829eb0714e2b854053.gif



LAball,


there's more to this swing than meets the eye trust me.





EL,

[1chapterahead]

What do you mean by intentional, do you mean that that is how the drill is supposed to be performed. I know that everyone i have seen use this drill says to make sure that there is no more room than the length of the bat, this is accomplished by pinning the bat between your stomach and the fence. That is supposedly the proper distance. It looks like he is way closerExaggerated distance to exaggerate keeping the hands in and being compact. This drill is usually practiced in combination with the torque drill. I found a downside to the drill, in that my son started pulling off of the ball during bp, but he figured it out. Once he did, he was able to handle pitches in and serve balls opposite field almost regularly.

btw. Isn't that jbooth on the left doing the demo?

[1chapterahead]

Way early, but because he's golfing the ball his bat head is still going to clear the fence.

I think Tom Guerry would call this a two-plane swing.So based on this observation, you would lable his swing as?

[kls_hittingacademy]

when you set this drill up your back foot should be about 18 to 20 inches from the fence or wall. When work this drill you are working on rotating the front elbow and box up and getting tilt on the back shoulder. It's not designed for anything else but that. It's for the students that are having a hard time grasping the front elbow and box. Once again Chris if have questions why not go to the source. Give Jake a call he will be more than happy to anwser and of your questions.

[Mark H]

I think Tom Guerry would call this a two-plane swing.

Probably. From my glance at the golf pages on the net this is what it looked like they were talking about. Of course the term definition got mixed up with a tipping loading pattern on the baseball discussion boards.

[Mark H]

Fence drill would be good for OHdad. His kids unlocks the wrist too soon.

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/26/l_2e2c44381ffa49829eb0714e2b854053.gif

I don't find casting so difficult to cure that I would resort to the fence drill.

[Mark H]

It may not be THE swing but it gives a kids a feel of a different swing in trying to understand THE swing

Well I dang sure can't argue with THAT. lol

[callyjr]

Can somebody PLEASE explain to me how my original post could come across as an attempt to put down Epstein.

In fact, I could see how this could work as a decent way of explaining the concept of staying compact (as long as you set up farther away from the plate so as to reduce the winging).




Please explain this in more detail.

Chris,


The purpose to expose a problem is either 1 to try and get someone to fix it or 2 make someone look bad. Epstein does not goto forums because of people like you. I can go back through and find 10 posts from you trying to make something of Epstein's looks bad or incorrect. 80% of the people on this forum don't know Epstein's drills and it only instills a negative every time you do it.

The drill is not a good drill for anything other than showing a kid they have a long swing and it needs corrected. He doesn't use the drill unless the kid just cannot keep from having the long swing. Otherwise its just an add on in his DVD's. I don't use the drill on my lessons, I will show it to the student because it is part of the DVD's but thats as far as we get.

The interesting thing is why you constantly pick Epstein. Did he do something to you, did he embarrass you sometime? Why only Epstein. I have seen many flaws in your teachings and not once have I ever tried to say anything in public. I just don't understand your methods. A good salesman neither puts down his competition.

[callyjr]

btw. Isn't that jbooth on the left doing the demo?


lol, no its Mike Epstein

[Ursa Major]

LOL, no -- it really is Jim Booth. (BTW, Epstein is a lefty.) This clip is from something Jim posted here a couple of years ago, and it drew much the same sort of criticism -- in trying to make whatever point he was making about the fence drill, Jim did chickenwing his left elbow a little bit. And, yes, that's Claus on the right. (Also note that there's not umpire -- I think it's from a home run derby or some other such exhibition.)

The point of the fence drill is to teach kids -- particularly young kids -- to keep their hands back and their wrists cocked until later in their shoulder rotation. There's nothing like the clang of a metal bat on a chain link fence to reinforce good mechanics.

But, there is a risk that kids will "cheat" (say, by the chickenwinging seen here) to avoid the fence. As soon as they start doing that, you stop with the fence drill ... at least for awhile.
Cally said, "I don't use the drill on my lessons, I will show it to the student because it is part of the DVD's but thats as far as we get.
I rarely have kids do it either -- I'll often do it myself, because it has a certain wow factor in being able to stand 20" from a fence and get around with a 32" bat and not hit the fence. Besides, if you have a kid do it with his new $300 bat, his Dad turns all shades of green when he gets it wrong and nails the fence. (Just kidding -- I loan out my fungo bat for the drill.)

[1chapterahead]

LOL, no -- it really is Jim Booth. (BTW, Epstein is a lefty.) This clip is from something Jim posted here a couple of years ago, and it drew much the same sort of criticism -- in trying to make whatever point he was making about the fence drill, Jim did chickenwing his left elbow a little bit. And, yes, that's Claus on the right. (Also note that there's not umpire -- I think it's from a home run derby or some other such exhibition.)

The point of the fence drill is to teach kids -- particularly young kids -- to keep their hands back and their wrists cocked until later in their shoulder rotation. There's nothing like the clang of a metal bat on a chain link fence to reinforce good mechanics.

But, there is a risk that kids will "cheat" (say, by the chickenwinging seen here) to avoid the fence. As soon as they start doing that, you stop with the fence drill ... at least for awhile.
I rarely have kids do it either -- I'll often do it myself, because it has a certain wow factor in being able to stand 20" from a fence and get around with a 32" bat and not hit the fence. Besides, if you have a kid do it with his new $300 bat, his Dad turns all shades of green when he gets it wrong and nails the fence. (Just kidding -- I loan out my fungo bat for the drill.)Thought so and yes. I miss booths posts...

[Chris O'Leary]

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[hitnpeas]

btw. Isn't that jbooth on the left doing the demo?

lol, no its Mike Epstein

LOL, no -- it really is Jim Booth. (BTW, Epstein is a lefty.)


LMAO!! I find it funny that you don't even know what your hero looks like.... :laugh :rofl: :rofl:

[BallCoach06]

As noted, it is NOT Epstein in the clip.

On another note, from the Epstein materials I have seen that is also not the way he executes the drill as far as the setup.

[1chapterahead]

The drill has merit and poses an interesting challenge to a hitter when asked to perform it. I don't think it should be a staple, though I throw it in to break up the routine every now and than.

[1chapterahead]

As noted, it is NOT Epstein in the clip.

On another note, from the Epstein materials I have seen that is also not the way he executes the drill as far as the setup.Correct Coach, he asks his students to line up in the torque position as noted on his dvd.

[kylebee]

Though I'm a Yeager disciple, I like the drill in limited use.

[Mark H]

Chris,


The purpose to expose a problem is either 1 to try and get someone to fix it or 2 make someone look bad. Epstein does not goto forums because of people like you. I can go back through and find 10 posts from you trying to make something of Epstein's looks bad or incorrect. 80% of the people on this forum don't know Epstein's drills and it only instills a negative every time you do it.

The drill is not a good drill for anything other than showing a kid they have a long swing and it needs corrected. He doesn't use the drill unless the kid just cannot keep from having the long swing. Otherwise its just an add on in his DVD's. I don't use the drill on my lessons, I will show it to the student because it is part of the DVD's but thats as far as we get.

The interesting thing is why you constantly pick Epstein. Did he do something to you, did he embarrass you sometime? Why only Epstein. I have seen many flaws in your teachings and not once have I ever tried to say anything in public. I just don't understand your methods. A good salesman neither puts down his competition.

I would say it's because Epstein sell more dvd's than everyone else and he's got some stuff that's easy to see wrong. It's about the kids and newbie dads teaching their kids. It's not about Mike or Mankin or Steve for me. And I don't know why you still defer to Mike when you know more than he apparently does.

[kylebee]

Chris doesn't rail against Epstein out of some personal vendetta against him. Chris simply has a few hitters on his LL teams that are Epstein-trained, and therefore has questions about the hitting style.

FWIW I don't think he's very popular up here in the PacNW. I haven't heard of any hitting coaches around here that buy into his stuff.

[bob_r]

The point of the fence drill is to teach kids -- particularly young kids -- to keep their hands back and their wrists cocked until later in their shoulder rotation. There's nothing like the clang of a metal bat on a chain link fence to reinforce good mechanics.

But, there is a risk that kids will "cheat" (say, by the chickenwinging seen here) to avoid the fence. As soon as they start doing that, you stop with the fence drill ... at least for awhile.
I rarely have kids do it either -- I'll often do it myself, because it has a certain wow factor in being able to stand 20" from a fence and get around with a 32" bat and not hit the fence. Besides, if you have a kid do it with his new $300 bat, his Dad turns all shades of green when he gets it wrong and nails the fence. (Just kidding -- I loan out my fungo bat for the drill.)

What I have done and like better is to either use a net set up in straight vertical fashion to simulate the same plane as the fence or use a series of the long pool noodles. This way it takes the fear away of wrecking the bat, hurting your self while giving the instant feet back. Also watching the elbows to make sure there in the right position.

[ssarge]

FWIW I don't think he's very popular up here in the PacNW. I haven't heard of any hitting coaches around here that buy into his stuff.

Actually, I seem to recall that Cally is in the Northwest.

Regards,

Scott

[kylebee]

Actually, I seem to recall that Cally is in the Northwest.

Regards,

Scott

Yes, he's in Portland, I think. I'm in Seattle. I actually haven't run into too many people who teach the "famous" Internet gurus style of hitting (Epstein, Nyman, Yeager, Englishbey).

[callyjr]

LMAO!! I find it funny that you don't even know what your hero looks like.... :laugh :rofl: :rofl:

sarcasm

I have pics with the man.

[hitnpeas]

sarcasm

I have pics with the man.

And a poster of him on your wall? :rofl:

[callyjr]

I would say it's because Epstein sell more dvd's than everyone else and he's got some stuff that's easy to see wrong. It's about the kids and newbie dads teaching their kids. It's not about Mike or Mankin or Steve for me. And I don't know why you still defer to Mike when you know more than he apparently does.


I use Epstein's drills with every kid, they work great. I also try and add a couple things. I don't come on here preaching Epstein this or Epstein that. I would love to just say use Mankins drill to help with this and Steve's drill for that, but for some reason we cannot do that, instead the posts from Chris are always tearing down Epstein. Epstein doesn't care what an ex middle school player thinks and never will. I do support Epstein in the forum soley because I have had GREAT success using his model with some modifications. I won't stand here and just let someone tear into him(ME).

[callyjr]

And a poster of him on your wall? :rofl:


no thats actually your momma

[callyjr]

Yes, he's in Portland, I think. I'm in Seattle. I actually haven't run into too many people who teach the "famous" Internet gurus style of hitting (Epstein, Nyman, Yeager, Englishbey).


Sparky is in Seattle, I'm in Portland.

[callyjr]

I would say it's because Epstein sell more dvd's than everyone else and he's got some stuff that's easy to see wrong. It's about the kids and newbie dads teaching their kids. It's not about Mike or Mankin or Steve for me. And I don't know why you still defer to Mike when you know more than he apparently does.

Its all about Chris trying to self promote.

[Chris O'Leary]

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[callyjr]

FWIW I don't think he's very popular up here in the PacNW. I haven't heard of any hitting coaches around here that buy into his stuff.

Actually, I seem to recall that Cally is in the Northwest.

Regards,

Scott

1 by 1 the coaches are changing. 2 years ago I had 2 girls come to me a week before season(sisters) and a 3rd girl that was a friend. The sisters were Freshman and Junior. I told them to talk to coach before 1st lesson so he knew what was going on, the Junior did not come back for lessons that next day but the Freshman did because she wasn't scared of the coach. turns out the Freshman led her team and league in hitting all the way into state(5A in Oregon) Her coach ended up with a copy of the Epstein DVD's and is on board.

The friend which only an 8th grader that year ended up 2nd team all state last year as a Freshman. The coach is now on board as well.

I am currently working with one of our local HS coaches and he is coming around. 1 by 1 they see it work and will change.

It just takes time, I don't do this full time or I would have a bigger influence already in the NW.

[hitnpeas]

no thats actually your momma

Wow a momma joke.... Nice work!! btw, your momma so fat she.....Nah, you wouldn't think it was funny!! :laugh

[Mark H]

I use Epstein's drills with every kid, they work great. I also try and add a couple things. I don't come on here preaching Epstein this or Epstein that. I would love to just say use Mankins drill to help with this and Steve's drill for that, but for some reason we cannot do that, instead the posts from Chris are always tearing down Epstein. Epstein doesn't care what an ex middle school player thinks and never will. I do support Epstein in the forum soley because I have had GREAT success using his model with some modifications. I won't stand here and just let someone tear into him(ME).

If I sold as many dvd's as Mike I wouldn't care about Chris's opinion either. :)

With some modifications. No kidding. Being unencumbered by 10000 dvds you have moved beyond the teacher. Give him his due and accept yours at the same time.

[Mark H]

Its all about Chris trying to self promote.

If he is I don't see anything inherently wrong with that.

[jofus]

And a poster of him on your wall? :rofl:



http://www.fathead.com/

:hide:

Sonuva.....

Fathead has SI swimsuit models.....

[Chris O'Leary]

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[callyjr]

Again, I'm not trying to make Epstein look bad, I'm just asking questions about what he teaches and why.

Sometimes, as in the case of the fence drill, that's to understand the problems people have had with him in the past. I'm sorry if that opens up old wounds, but that's the way it is.

I like some of what Epstein teaches and I have problems (due to direct experience) with other things he teaches (or doesn't).

As I once heard in a movie...

Is he above criticism?

Yes you used that line before, and as always we suggest you take it up with him, but you would rather make it public in order to self promote. If thats all it was Chris and your only trying to make him a better person( LOL) then you should call him directly because we all know he is not on here. I would be surprised if you could last 5 minutes on the phone with him. Is what he teaches perfect, NO, Is what you teach perfect(hell no) then why make a big fuss about it. Because its the only way you can self promote.

Is he above criticism, of course not, but at your expense probably.

[Chris O'Leary]

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[kylebee]

I agree with Chris. Why can't we have a discussion about Epstein's methods and what we see wrong with them? The same thing happens to all analysts or coaches that sell their stuff, including Chris.

[callyjr]

I agree with Chris. Why can't we have a discussion about Epstein's methods and what we see wrong with them? The same thing happens to all analysts or coaches that sell their stuff, including Chris.


Its never a discussion, its a bashing from Chris. and he never opens talks about any other guru's just Epstein. I agree people should openly debate each guru's swing, but Chris's approach has 1 motive.

You could offer suggestions to a drill to change it to do this or that. The drill in question is poorly displayed by someone that was trying to show something. Epstein does no promote the drill the way it is displayed.

[Chris O'Leary]

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[1chapterahead]

My swing analysis work has caught the attention of people at the highest levels of baseball (D-1 and major league) and softball (major D-1) instruction. On multiple occasions they have asked me if I have a DVD that explains how to teach what they see in my analyses.

I'm just giving the people what they are ask for, and I'm not actively promoting it in this forum.

So far, Jake hasn't expressed any problems with what I'm doing or how I'm doing it.If this is true, someone needs to be fired!!!!

[Mark H]

Making someone else look bad in order to self promote. you don't see a problem with this?

If he misrepresents Mike, I'll have a problem with that. If he accurately portrays Mike's position and offers a different opinion with clips to support I don't have a problem with that. As I just told Englishbey, if I thought someone else had a better plan to help youth hitters, I'd support them. I used to support Mike. It's not about Mike or any other teacher. It's about youth hitters and their parents.

[Mark H]

And there in lies the rub.

Chris, I see you're selling a new DVD? not bad for only studying 2 years of hitting. :laugh:laugh:laugh

Yeah he's come far but he left the Dagobah system too soon. ;)

[1chapterahead]

Whatever...D-1 and Majors are calling you on this stuff? I'm serious Chris. You help coach 13U's and haven't been able to demonstrate superior enough teachings to persuade every player on your team to sign up with you? and you're giving this info out for free to your players. What gives?

[Chris O'Leary]

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[ssarge]

Originally Posted by ssarge
FWIW I don't think he's very popular up here in the PacNW. I haven't heard of any hitting coaches around here that buy into his stuff.

Actually, I seem to recall that Cally is in the Northwest.

Regards,

Scott


1 by 1 the coaches are changing. 2 years ago I had 2 girls come to me a week before season(sisters) and a 3rd girl that was a friend. The sisters were Freshman and Junior. I told them to talk to coach before 1st lesson so he knew what was going on, the Junior did not come back for lessons that next day but the Freshman did because she wasn't scared of the coach. turns out the Freshman led her team and league in hitting all the way into state(5A in Oregon) Her coach ended up with a copy of the Epstein DVD's and is on board.

The friend which only an 8th grader that year ended up 2nd team all state last year as a Freshman. The coach is now on board as well.

I am currently working with one of our local HS coaches and he is coming around. 1 by 1 they see it work and will change.

It just takes time, I don't do this full time or I would have a bigger influence already in the NW.




Cally:

Please note that the comment about Epstein's popularity in the Northwest was NOT mine (The response about you being domiciled in the northwest IS mine, but not the Epstein comment). The way you arranged the quote kind of made it look as if the comment was attributable to me. No worries, just want to set the record straight. Truthfully, I have no idea what Epstein's popularity is in the NW, and wouldn't presume to judge that.

I am pleased to hear of your success - phenomenal. We [all] need more success stories, because actually enabling kids to hit successfully is what it is about.

Thanks,

Scott

[Chris O'Leary]

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[BoardMember]

No.

They assume that I'm just a dad/coach like them and defer to hitting coaches with better resumes (most of whom teach Linear or Extension garbage).

The one totally obsessed baseball guy who has seen the stuff on my web site knows that I know what I talking about and wants me to look at his kids. However, most everyone else doesn't think I could possibly know anything.

Maybe you need an "extreme makeover". You know, a little more athletic build (maybe some roids)......Maybe shave your head so you have that "I'm a little nuts" look in your eyes.......Maybe some elevator shoes to help people start looking up to you.......:crazy

[1chapterahead]

No.

They assume that I'm just a dad/coach like them and defer to hitting coaches with better resumes (most of whom teach Linear or Extension garbage).




The one totally obsessed baseball guy who has seen the stuff on my web site knows that I know what I talking about and wants me to look at his kids. However, most everyone else doesn't think I could possibly know anything.In this I think we all have some common ground.

[mudvnine]

No.

They assume that I'm just a dad/coach like them and defer to hitting coaches with better resumes (most of whom teach Linear or Extension garbage).




The one totally obsessed baseball guy who has seen the stuff on my web site knows that I know what I talking about and wants me to look at his kids. However, most everyone else doesn't think I could possibly know anything.

Then you don't . . . or if you do, you need to work on your presentations or explanations. Resumes are what draw parents to instructors, but do absolutely nothing to keep them there.

Explaining and showing a parent why and what you teach should convince them to come to you, if what you teach is indeed better then they can get elsewhere; if they're not you need to step back and reassess what or how you are instructing.

I only have two kids (who are new to our team) who have not come over from their private "linear" instructors and one is asking a lot of questions seeing his kid hitting differently from the other kids . . . now having me make some suggestions/corrections.

I have no resume except for the kids that have already worked with me over the past seven years and a hitting certification course from about six years back . . . nothing compared to the guys these hitters are coming from.

My swing analysis work has caught the attention of people at the highest levels of baseball (D-1 and major league) and softball (major D-1) instruction. On multiple occasions they have asked me if I have a DVD that explains how to teach what they see in my analyses
Analysis is one thing, instruction is completely another . . . from your numerous postings here on the forum I think I understand why the majority of your players don't hit with you.

1. People were pressing me to ship it as is (I guess they think the state of the art still has major problems and they want to get a jump on the upcoming season).
Statements like these are just one of them. :dismay:

[Jake Patterson]

Then you don't . . . or if you do, you need to work on your presentations or explanations. Resumes are what draw parents to instructors, but do absolutely nothing to keep them there. I disagree... I consider Catching Coach THE best youth catching coach in the country and feel he could easily keep up with most MLB catching coaches... Ask him for his catching background.

Look, every time we discuss a method or philosophy we promote. This, in many ways is the only way we can establish a base from which we can reasonably discuss topics like hitting and pitching. Cally, I do not feel people think Mike is the anti-Christ of hitting, they just disagree with some of his methods.

To all.... Mike Epstein is regarded as one of the most successful hitting instructors in the business. We can agree or disagree, but the fact remains, he's recognized as one of the best. I feel the problem is many hitting instructors, as they grow their businesses teach beyond their comfort zone and try a one size fits all method or program. This is where they start to falter. Chris is targeting a specific cohort group, one, I feel that is in desperate need of help.

[1chapterahead]

I disagree... I consider Catching Coach THE best youth catching coach in the country and feel he could easily keep up with most MLB catching coaches... Ask him for his catching background.

Look, every time we discuss a method or philosophy we promote. This, in many ways is the only way we can establish a base from which we can reasonably discuss topics like hitting and pitching. Cally, I do not feel people think Mike is the anti-Christ of hitting, they just disagree with some of his methods.

To all.... Mike Epstein is regarded as one of the most successful hitting instructors in the business. We can agree or disagree, but the fact remains, he's recognized as one of the best. I feel the problem is many hitting instructors, as they grow their businesses teach beyond their comfort zone and try a one size fits all method or program. This is where they start to falter. Chris is targeting a specific cohort group, one, I feel that is in desperate need of help.
Jake, what group is this? I may be in it.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake, what group is this? I may be in it.
I suspect you are.

[JJA]

mudvnine,

Not sure how many kids you've coached, but my experience has been a lot more like Chris. I'm an engineer, but after studying hitting for nearly 10 years I've gotten reasonably good at it. My teams have led the league in hitting nearly every year for the past 10 years in both softball and baseball, usually by large margins. I have taken several kids who have never had a hit the previous year, not only gotten them to hit but even had one girl who became an all-star the year I got her despite not a single hit the previous year. Despite this obvious success, most parents consider me just another dad like all the other coaches and parents. A few knowledgeable baseball/softball parents know better and are extremely complimentary and crave all the instruction I can give, but most have no idea. I film the kids at the beginning of the year and then give the parents a DVD at the end of the year detailing the progress their child made during the season, but for most parents this is way over their head.

I learned a long time ago that when I have success, people chalk it up to me having great talent, and when I don't have success it's because I'm a lousy coach. Kind of comes with the territory.

-JJA

[Jake Patterson]

I learned a long time ago that when I have success, people chalk it up to me having great talent, and when I don't have success it's because I'm a lousy coach. Kind of comes with the territory.

-JJA
This would be my general experience...

[mudvnine]

I disagree... I consider Catching Coach THE best youth catching coach in the country and feel he could easily keep up with most MLB catching coaches... Ask him for his catching background. Jake, you couldn’t have made my case any better and Coach Weaver is a perfect example . . . . thank you.

We spent several days with Coach Weaver this past summer and I agree with your assessment of him 100%. Coach Weaver is outstanding and his resume is a product of his successes as a premier catching coach over the past 16 years, but that was not always the case.

He too had his troubles and detractors (still does according to him which seems impossible if anyone has seen him work) in the beginning of his coaching career and had to earn/lure his students from their “former player” instructors by his teaching not his beginning resume, just like many of us.

According to Chris, his “swing analysis work has caught the attention of people at the highest levels of baseball (D-1 and major league)” which sounds like a pretty competitive resume section, unfortunately, he can’t catch the attention of the parents of his young players who hear him coach on an almost daily basis and still choose to go elsewhere for hitting lessons.

He’s never said that he coaches for these “D-1 and major league” teams and since he alludes that the majority of his players choose to learn mechanics elsewhere, one can only assume that “he need(s) to step back and reassess what or how you(he) are(is) instructing” as I posted earlier.

There is much more to hitting instruction then analyzing an elite MLB athlete and then trying to get a young hitter to emulate it. There are great minds out there that are brilliant in their given fields, but are unable to communicate it to others and can never be teachers/coaches (some “former players may be a good example). Many of his competing posts just don't add up. :shrug:

Look, every time we discuss a method or philosophy we promote. This, in many ways is the only way we can establish a base from which we can reasonably discuss topics like hitting and pitching. Cally, I do not feel people think Mike is the anti-Christ of hitting, they just disagree with some of his methods.

Jake, I have to agree with Cally on this one regarding Chris’ behavior towards Mr. Epstein. I use various drills from various instructors, but have some problems/concerns with several of them (the drills, not instructors), yet I have identified the problems with those and just didn’t use them; I have no reason or desire to negatively post them on an open public forum.

I believe it is disingenuous of Chris to come here and post the various “problems” or “questions” he has with Mr. Epstein’s teachings (and Mr. Epstein’s only). If he is as proficient a player analyst as he wants us to believe, then he should be able to identify which drills/techniques are beneficial and which ones are not as many of us already have and not start posts with an innocent, Cheshire Cat grin styled question if he is as good as he has convinced those “D-1 and major league” teams that he “works” for.


That's all . . .
mud

[Mark H]

I learned a long time ago that when I have success, people chalk it up to me having great talent, and when I don't have success it's because I'm a lousy coach. Kind of comes with the territory.

-JJA


"No good deed goes unpunished". Clare Boothe Luce

[mudvnine]

mudvnine,

Not sure how many kids you've coached, but my experience has been a lot more like Chris. I'm an engineer, but after studying hitting for nearly 10 years I've gotten reasonably good at it. My teams have led the league in hitting nearly every year for the past 10 years in both softball and baseball, usually by large margins. I have taken several kids who have never had a hit the previous year, not only gotten them to hit but even had one girl who became ian all-star the year I got her despite not a single hit the previous year. Despite this obvious success, most parents consider me just another dad like all the other coaches and parents. A few knowledgeable baseball/softball parents know better and are extremely complimentary and crave all the instruction I can give, but most have no idea. I film the kids at the beginning of the year and then give the parents a DVD at the end of the year detailing the progress their child made during the season, but for most parents this is way over their head.

I learned a long time ago that when I have success, people chalk it up to me having great talent, and when I don't have success it's because I'm a lousy coach. Kind of comes with the territory.

-JJA

JJA, I've coached/trained well over 200 hitters for various lengths of time over the years, on a part time basis and have never charged for a lesson. As for success, I'll only say that I have been asked to coach at the HS level (as many others here have), which I am pleased with, take as a compliment, and humbled by.

I learned a long time ago that it is not about my successes, but those of my hitters and that I get the greatest pleasure seeing the smiles on the faces and the "thank yous" from players and parents. Fortunately, none have ever expressed their dissatisfaction (at least not to my face ;)), but I attribute that to never charging for a lesson, I guess they figured all I'd have to say is, "What do you want for free!!" :D :laugh :waving

[Ursa Major]

I find it interesting that this thread has mutated from a discussion of what actually was NOT Epstein's fence drill (notwithstanding the thread's title) to Chris' supposed attacks on Epstein to others' somewhat snide attacks on Chris. Why is it that it's not okay to poke at the popular teaching of someone who makes a living off of teaching and guides (directly or indirectly) the instruction of thousands of kids (and hence should be scrutinized), but it's okay to personally attack Chris, who by and large gives away from free an enormous amount of information (such as video and image analyses, as contrasted with off-the-cuff opinions)?

But, I'll let others debate the morality of the attacks, because I feel that many folks (and in one instance Chris) miss the point. It doesn't make much difference how many videos you sell. Heck, desperate parents buy all sorts of crap and spend hundreds of dollars each sending their kids to crappy camps. And it doesn't necessarily make a difference that you coach ex-number of players whose teams do well (maybe the teams or the players would have survived anyway) .... or even how many high level coaches want to sit at your knee and learn coaching tips. Many top youth coaches stop and listen to just about anyone, because there's always the hope of picking up a new and novel way to teach or to address a specific type of intractable shortcoming with a subset of players.

And this is the point. For most all of us who are experienced coaches, we have the sense to pick and choose from what we see here and elsewhere, and don't necessarily buy 100% into any one coach's or guru's instructional scheme. (Heck, I even stole something from Tom Guerry once.)

Precisely because Epstein is so popular but teaches some things that I and many others don't see in big leaguers and don't see in successful youth hitters, it is necessary and proper for forums like this to alert parents and coaches that they may want to think twice before adopting that part of Epstein's instructional scheme. (Chris could spend his time knocking down my teaching philosophies as well, but why should he bother? He's not going to be saving thousands of parents wasted time and money; I just don't have that many adherents (and my time and advice are free)). And it's just fine for others to respond to say that that specific part of the program is helpful to some, most or all hitters. But who cares if Chris did talk about nothing but Epstein (which isn't true) -- that doesn't necessarily make his comments invalid. And I don't see any personal vendetta by him -- I've never seen him attack the man personally.

And, I don't see Chris promoting anything -- until I visited his web site tonight, I didn't even realize that he'd just published a DVD. What I do see is that he has contributed without charge to this site and elsewhere a ton of valuable information (including painstakingly prepared videos and image compilations), as contrasted with the unsupported and often anecdotal opinions proffered by some folks.

But, the things that are important to consider in evaluating Chris' value to YOU, the BF reader, are whether you can come away with something that will help you teach. Does he offer innovative thinking about hitting physics or kinesiology, or design new drills. Not really. But, he presents hitting principles in a clear and cogent manner that are easily understood. I dare you to find a better summary (supported by pictures and video) of straight-ahead rotational hitting mechancis than Chris sets out -- for free -- on the "Rotational Hitting 101" page of his web site. When I start explaining rotational hitting to a new batch of kids next month, I intend to steal from it liberally in drafting my script.

So, now that Chris has entered the realm of professional DVD producers, his hitting ideas are fair game. And those who don't want to buy the DVD can go to his web site and download his blogs and ideas for free and attack them. They're pretty comprehensive, so there's a lot to shoot at -- if you find any flaws.

I didn't start this post with the idea of "defending" Chris from anything. But it does get a little tiresome hearing the "Chris Hates Epstein" mantra recited again. It gets to be like the old "which cast members of Desperate Housewives don't like each other this week" tabloid stories. Nor do I think it advances our learning to jump on Chris' admission that some parents stay with their fancy, high-qualification hitting instructors as a sign that his teachings aren't of much value. For parents who don't know hitting other than from what they may have learned thirty years ago, a coach who teaches "knob to the ball" sounds like a safer bet than one talking the mysterious lingo of "PCR".

For example, I coached a super-athlete for three years who saw no need to change his linear swing that worked for him up to age 13, so I had not choice but to just let him go with what he was doing. He just started high school and, in one of his first games in their fall development program, he burst out with a beautiful rotational swing; his high school coaches told him that his old swing was not going to cut it, and, because they could cut him from the squad, he had to make the change (and is glad he did). Was my teaching bad or was I a bad "promotor"? No... the kid just wasn't ready then. Every coach faces this. By the same token, don't read too much into the extent to which others seek out the teachings of Chris or Mudvnine or anyone else here. Make your own judgments.

[callyjr]

I find it interesting that this thread has mutated from a discussion of what actually was NOT Epstein's fence drill (notwithstanding the thread's title) to Chris' supposed attacks on Epstein to others' somewhat snide attacks on Chris. Why is it that it's not okay to poke at the popular teaching of someone who makes a living off of teaching and guides (directly or indirectly) the instruction of thousands of kids (and hence should be scrutinized), but it's okay to personally attack Chris, who by and large gives away from free an enormous amount of information (such as video and image analyses, as contrasted with off-the-cuff opinions)?

But, I'll let others debate the morality of the attacks, because I feel that many folks (and in one instance Chris) miss the point. It doesn't make much difference how many videos you sell. Heck, desperate parents buy all sorts of crap and spend hundreds of dollars each sending their kids to crappy camps. And it doesn't necessarily make a difference that you coach ex-number of players whose teams do well (maybe the teams or the players would have survived anyway) .... or even how many high level coaches want to sit at your knee and learn coaching tips. Many top youth coaches stop and listen to just about anyone, because there's always the hope of picking up a new and novel way to teach or to address a specific type of intractable shortcoming with a subset of players.

And this is the point. For most all of us who are experienced coaches, we have the sense to pick and choose from what we see here and elsewhere, and don't necessarily buy 100% into any one coach's or guru's instructional scheme. (Heck, I even stole something from Tom Guerry once.)

Precisely because Epstein is so popular but teaches some things that I and many others don't see in big leaguers and don't see in successful youth hitters, it is necessary and proper for forums like this to alert parents and coaches that they may want to think twice before adopting that part of Epstein's instructional scheme. (Chris could spend his time knocking down my teaching philosophies as well, but why should he bother? He's not going to be saving thousands of parents wasted time and money; I just don't have that many adherents (and my time and advice are free)). And it's just fine for others to respond to say that that specific part of the program is helpful to some, most or all hitters. But who cares if Chris did talk about nothing but Epstein (which isn't true) -- that doesn't necessarily make his comments invalid. And I don't see any personal vendetta by him -- I've never seen him attack the man personally.

And, I don't see Chris promoting anything -- until I visited his web site tonight, I didn't even realize that he'd just published a DVD. What I do see is that he has contributed without charge to this site and elsewhere a ton of valuable information (including painstakingly prepared videos and image compilations), as contrasted with the unsupported and often anecdotal opinions proffered by some folks.

But, the things that are important to consider in evaluating Chris' value to YOU, the BF reader, are whether you can come away with something that will help you teach. Does he offer innovative thinking about hitting physics or kinesiology, or design new drills. Not really. But, he presents hitting principles in a clear and cogent manner that are easily understood. I dare you to find a better summary (supported by pictures and video) of straight-ahead rotational hitting mechancis than Chris sets out -- for free -- on the "Rotational Hitting 101" page of his web site. When I start explaining rotational hitting to a new batch of kids next month, I intend to steal from it liberally in drafting my script.

So, now that Chris has entered the realm of professional DVD producers, his hitting ideas are fair game. And those who don't want to buy the DVD can go to his web site and download his blogs and ideas for free and attack them. They're pretty comprehensive, so there's a lot to shoot at -- if you find any flaws.

I didn't start this post with the idea of "defending" Chris from anything. But it does get a little tiresome hearing the "Chris Hates Epstein" mantra recited again. It gets to be like the old "which cast members of Desperate Housewives don't like each other this week" tabloid stories. Nor do I think it advances our learning to jump on Chris' admission that some parents stay with their fancy, high-qualification hitting instructors as a sign that his teachings aren't of much value. For parents who don't know hitting other than from what they may have learned thirty years ago, a coach who teaches "knob to the ball" sounds like a safer bet than one talking the mysterious lingo of "PCR".

For example, I coached a super-athlete for three years who saw no need to change his linear swing that worked for him up to age 13, so I had not choice but to just let him go with what he was doing. He just started high school and, in one of his first games in their fall development program, he burst out with a beautiful rotational swing; his high school coaches told him that his old swing was not going to cut it, and, because they could cut him from the squad, he had to make the change (and is glad he did). Was my teaching bad or was I a bad "promotor"? No... the kid just wasn't ready then. Every coach faces this. By the same token, don't read too much into the extent to which others seek out the teachings of Chris or Mudvnine or anyone else here. Make your own judgments.


I have never once attacked Chris outside of an Epstein bashing.

[bronxkid]

My swing analysis work has caught the attention of people at the highest levels of baseball (D-1 and major league) and softball (major D-1) instruction. On multiple occasions they have asked me if I have a DVD that explains how to teach what they see in my analyses.

I'm just giving the people what they are ask for, and I'm not actively promoting it in this forum.

So far, Jake hasn't expressed any problems with what I'm doing or how I'm doing it.


Sweet Lord , now anyone can make a hitting DVD , are you kidding me??:sorry:

[1chapterahead]

I find it interesting that this thread has mutated from a discussion of what actually was NOT Epstein's fence drill (notwithstanding the thread's title) to Chris' supposed attacks on Epstein to others' somewhat snide attacks on Chris. Why is it that it's not okay to poke at the popular teaching of someone who makes a living off of teaching and guides (directly or indirectly) the instruction of thousands of kids (and hence should be scrutinized), but it's okay to personally attack Chris, who by and large gives away from free an enormous amount of information (such as video and image analyses, as contrasted with off-the-cuff opinions)?

But, I'll let others debate the morality of the attacks, because I feel that many folks (and in one instance Chris) miss the point. It doesn't make much difference how many videos you sell. Heck, desperate parents buy all sorts of crap and spend hundreds of dollars each sending their kids to crappy camps. And it doesn't necessarily make a difference that you coach ex-number of players whose teams do well (maybe the teams or the players would have survived anyway) .... or even how many high level coaches want to sit at your knee and learn coaching tips. Many top youth coaches stop and listen to just about anyone, because there's always the hope of picking up a new and novel way to teach or to address a specific type of intractable shortcoming with a subset of players.

And this is the point. For most all of us who are experienced coaches, we have the sense to pick and choose from what we see here and elsewhere, and don't necessarily buy 100% into any one coach's or guru's instructional scheme. (Heck, I even stole something from Tom Guerry once.)

Precisely because Epstein is so popular but teaches some things that I and many others don't see in big leaguers and don't see in successful youth hitters, it is necessary and proper for forums like this to alert parents and coaches that they may want to think twice before adopting that part of Epstein's instructional scheme. (Chris could spend his time knocking down my teaching philosophies as well, but why should he bother? He's not going to be saving thousands of parents wasted time and money; I just don't have that many adherents (and my time and advice are free)). And it's just fine for others to respond to say that that specific part of the program is helpful to some, most or all hitters. But who cares if Chris did talk about nothing but Epstein (which isn't true) -- that doesn't necessarily make his comments invalid. And I don't see any personal vendetta by him -- I've never seen him attack the man personally.

And, I don't see Chris promoting anything -- until I visited his web site tonight, I didn't even realize that he'd just published a DVD. What I do see is that he has contributed without charge to this site and elsewhere a ton of valuable information (including painstakingly prepared videos and image compilations), as contrasted with the unsupported and often anecdotal opinions proffered by some folks.

But, the things that are important to consider in evaluating Chris' value to YOU, the BF reader, are whether you can come away with something that will help you teach. Does he offer innovative thinking about hitting physics or kinesiology, or design new drills. Not really. But, he presents hitting principles in a clear and cogent manner that are easily understood. I dare you to find a better summary (supported by pictures and video) of straight-ahead rotational hitting mechancis than Chris sets out -- for free -- on the "Rotational Hitting 101" page of his web site. When I start explaining rotational hitting to a new batch of kids next month, I intend to steal from it liberally in drafting my script.

So, now that Chris has entered the realm of professional DVD producers, his hitting ideas are fair game. And those who don't want to buy the DVD can go to his web site and download his blogs and ideas for free and attack them. They're pretty comprehensive, so there's a lot to shoot at -- if you find any flaws.

I didn't start this post with the idea of "defending" Chris from anything. But it does get a little tiresome hearing the "Chris Hates Epstein" mantra recited again. It gets to be like the old "which cast members of Desperate Housewives don't like each other this week" tabloid stories. Nor do I think it advances our learning to jump on Chris' admission that some parents stay with their fancy, high-qualification hitting instructors as a sign that his teachings aren't of much value. For parents who don't know hitting other than from what they may have learned thirty years ago, a coach who teaches "knob to the ball" sounds like a safer bet than one talking the mysterious lingo of "PCR".

For example, I coached a super-athlete for three years who saw no need to change his linear swing that worked for him up to age 13, so I had not choice but to just let him go with what he was doing. He just started high school and, in one of his first games in their fall development program, he burst out with a beautiful rotational swing; his high school coaches told him that his old swing was not going to cut it, and, because they could cut him from the squad, he had to make the change (and is glad he did). Was my teaching bad or was I a bad "promotor"? No... the kid just wasn't ready then. Every coach faces this. By the same token, don't read too much into the extent to which others seek out the teachings of Chris or Mudvnine or anyone else here. Make your own judgments.I think everyone of Chris's drills miss the mark. I've talked to people.... and been to his website....

[1chapterahead]

I suspect you are.So there’s the endorsement. Epstein has Ted Williams and O’Leary has you. Congrats!:applaud:

[Chris O'Leary]

..........

[1chapterahead]

I don't post any drills on my web site.Neither does Epstein, but that's never been a question for those who know the difference. Anyway, your drills may be fine. Not really fair of me to judge without seeing or understanding them, huh?

[Chris O'Leary]

..........

[1chapterahead]

I agree, which means it doesn't make any sense for you to say...

I think everyone (sic) of Chris's drills miss the mark. I've talked to people.... and been to his website....

Also, I have seen some of Epstein's drills in person, which is why I'm asking questions about, and raising concerns about, them (and not attacking them or Epstein).Here we go again. Performed by? Taught by? Explained by? and when you have questions about it, who do you ask? answer: a group who doesn't care for Epsteins drills... Too funny.

[Chris O'Leary]

Here we go again. Performed by? Taught by? Explained by? and when you have questions about it, who do you ask? answer: a group who doesn't care for Epsteins drills... Too funny.

This is pointless.

Goodbye.

[1chapterahead]

This is pointless.

Goodbye.Agreed. Good Luck!

[Mark H]

OK Chris. Go ahead and buy Epstein's DVD so you can legitimately bash him. ;)

[bob_r]

couple of points about this thread:

1) It's easy for these threads to degrade. Everybody seems to have their feelings hurt easily if someone else disagrees with them, then it turns into right fighting and goes personal. I personally get a kick out of it as side show entertainment.

2) As far as Chris's "lack of experience" I think he has contributed greatly to this forum and putting his input on most threads, weather you agree or not it still input that spurs debate. I commend that he's learned as much as he has in a few years, I have checked out his website and found good information and analysis on it.

3) as far as the resume is concerned if you start having success with kids you have trained people will seek you out regardless of your history.

[1chapterahead]

OK Chris. Go ahead and buy Epstein's DVD so you can legitimately bash him. ;)If he did and used the drills as intended, there is almost a guarentee it will help his hitters. Worked for my 9U son (08). Drove in the first runs of the first 5 district all-star games (#5 hitter), #3 hitter on his travel team and MVP of his rec. team. Not a lick of the dreaded bat drag that he used to have as an 8U, and not a travel pitcher that could get the ball past him. But what do I know, I'm just a silly dad, right?

[callyjr]

OK Chris. Go ahead and buy Epstein's DVD so you can legitimately bash him. ;)

Just call him instead, you might learn a little respect. He won't talk down to you or bad about anyone else.

[kylebee]

No one is disputing that Epstein's work will help youth hitters! Chris is merely pointing out that against stiffer competition that the swing may break down, because it is not patterned after the most efficient swings in the business (i.e. the MLB swing).

You are deliberately being inflammatory. It's ridiculous.

[callyjr]

No one is disputing that Epstein's work will help youth hitters! Chris is merely pointing out that against stiffer competition that the swing may break down, because it is not patterned after the most efficient swings in the business (i.e. the MLB swing).

You are deliberately being inflammatory. It's ridiculous.

funny thing is that it works successfully in the majors, so explain that.

Its very simple really, Chris puts someone down to get attention so he can try and make himself look better but all it did was expose him more and will continue to expose him as long as he isolates out 1 guru. If he came to the table and said I think this drill would be better if you did this or that then we would not be discussing this would we. Or if he doesn't like the drill then not worry about it and move on.

[1chapterahead]

No one is disputing that Epstein's work will help youth hitters! Chris is merely pointing out that against stiffer competition that the swing may break down, because it is not patterned after the most efficient swings in the business (i.e. the MLB swing).

You are deliberately being inflammatory. It's ridiculous.I'm disputing that it doesn't work against stiffer competition seeing that he has many high level students playing stiffer competition. I need you all to tell me how these folks are doing it. And I don't want to hear "they're not doing what he's teaching". Give me a real answer.

[callyjr]

I'm disputing that it doesn't work against stiffer competition seeing that he has many high level students playing stiffer competition. I need you all to tell me how these folks are doing it. And I don't want to hear "they're not doing what he's teaching". Give me a real answer.

good point, his own players can't hit using his own methods. Maybe he should invest in Epsteins DVD's. Maybe it will help him communicate better to his kids, he made a DVD and we know that it can't be what he is teaching that is broken. Could it? Naaa, Maybe Chris cannot communicate the hi level swing, he can see it but can't teach it. Its possible.

[Mark H]

If he did and used the drills as intended, there is almost a guarentee it will help his hitters. Worked for my 9U son (08). Drove in the first runs of the first 5 district all-star games (#5 hitter), #3 hitter on his travel team and MVP of his rec. team. Not a lick of the dreaded bat drag that he used to have as an 8U, and not a travel pitcher that could get the ball past him. But what do I know, I'm just a silly dad, right?

Well it was an attempt at humor first of all and yes I know I should keep my day job, but...NO one has said Epstein's stuff won't help most youth hitters. I have stated many times his stuff will. Scott has said this was his experience as well. We just both found a ceiling. If the goal is 12 all stars that's one thing. If the goal is college, that's another. In any case, please don't take my word for it or reject my word. Going forward, carefully compare everything you believe and are taught about the swing to slow motion video of the best in the world letting that be your truth detector. Keep in mind, often times people won't notice things in a swing till it's pointed out in slow motion. Keep going forward with your hitting education continuing to question everything. And spend a bunch of time reading on here and on the public free side of Englishbey's site. Best of luck to you and your son. The important thing is the relationship between the two of you of course. Youth baseball is just a tool for the two of you to enjoy together time till he decides he wants to take it to higher levels. Enjoy the journey. At his age it feels like it's going to last forever. Looking back it was over in the blink of an eye.

[Mark H]

Just call him instead, you might learn a little respect. He won't talk down to you or bad about anyone else.

I've talked to him in person and I have zero problem with him personally nor do I wish to talk down to him. I just see different things in elite swings than he teaches. As he says, do we teach what we see? I would add what we see is limited by our existing paradigm and our training among other things.

[BallCoach06]

couple of points about this thread:

1) It's easy for these threads to degrade. Everybody seems to have their feelings hurt easily if someone else disagrees with them, then it turns into right fighting and goes personal. I personally get a kick out of it as side show entertainment.

3) as far as the resume is concerned if you start having success with kids you have trained people will seek you out regardless of your history.

I agree. Especially about the side show entertainment.

My question is, how long before we see the "Epstein Torque Drill" thread.:eek:

[Mark H]

funny thing is that it works successfully in the majors, so explain that.


That's my point. It doesn't. Certainly he has worked with great hitters. I just don't see them doing, in ML games, what I see and hear him teaching. Perhaps if he added the changes to his drills that you use, it might be better.

[Jake Patterson]

funny thing is that it works successfully in the majors, so explain that.
See my post above...

[1chapterahead]

Well it was an attempt at humor first of all and yes I know I should keep my day job, but...NO one has said Epstein's stuff won't help most youth hitters. I have stated many times his stuff will. Scott has said this was his experience as well. We just both found a ceiling. If the goal is 12 all stars that's one thing. If the goal is college, that's another. In any case, please don't take my word for it or reject my word. Going forward, carefully compare everything you believe and are taught about the swing to slow motion video of the best in the world letting that be your truth detector. Keep in mind, often times people won't notice things in a swing till it's pointed out in slow motion. Keep going forward with your hitting education continuing to question everything. And spend a bunch of time reading on here and on the public free side of Englishbey's site. Best of luck to you and your son. The important thing is the relationship between the two of you of course. Youth baseball is just a tool for the two of you to enjoy together time till he decides he wants to take it to higher levels. Enjoy the journey. At his age it feels like it's going to last forever. Looking back it was over in the blink of an eye.
I'm taking these comments back.

[Mark H]

Once he's past zero you should never quit learning. I know it's an uncomfortable paradigm shift to consider something else besides that which you have enormous sunk costs invested in terms of time AND perhaps money but I suggest you owe it to your son to examine every possibility.

[callyjr]

Well it was an attempt at humor first of all and yes I know I should keep my day job, but...NO one has said Epstein's stuff won't help most youth hitters. I have stated many times his stuff will. Scott has said this was his experience as well. We just both found a ceiling. If the goal is 12 all stars that's one thing. If the goal is college, that's another. In any case, please don't take my word for it or reject my word. Going forward, carefully compare everything you believe and are taught about the swing to slow motion video of the best in the world letting that be your truth detector. Keep in mind, often times people won't notice things in a swing till it's pointed out in slow motion. Keep going forward with your hitting education continuing to question everything. And spend a bunch of time reading on here and on the public free side of Englishbey's site. Best of luck to you and your son. The important thing is the relationship between the two of you of course. Youth baseball is just a tool for the two of you to enjoy together time till he decides he wants to take it to higher levels. Enjoy the journey. At his age it feels like it's going to last forever. Looking back it was over in the blink of an eye.

lets get real, Lets not bring Steve into this, we have already established that spinners don't make it in the MLB. And we have already established even HG(our local pro) does not think Steve's product holds up to a MLB swing. I am to the point that I am ready to war, you keep going and I'll jump all over Steve and Chris. If that what you all want to see? I have been very nice up to this point. Last time I checked Steve didn't have players that he trained at the next level, Epstein has quite a few. Somehow what he teaching is what they are doing.

Lets not bring Steve into this!!

[jofus]

Actually, my oldest (daughter) is past 12, and, personally, I'm trying to look at as much stuff as I can and figure things out on my own so I really understand it, rather than blindly follow what any one person says. So far I've studied what Williams said, Epstein, and Englishbey, in addition to really reading posts on sites like this one (rather than just flaming people whose opinion I may not agree with) and looking at other online sites, such as Chris's for one example, and occasionally emailing people who seem to know what they are talking about, like Ssarge, and my understanding of what makes a good swing truly good is far better than it was when I started on this quest a year or so ago. Now if I can only get better at communicating to my kids how to go about swinging that way.....

My daughter was the best hitter (average and power) in her little league, even against girls 2 years older than her, using the swing that I taught her, which was what I was taught when I played in the 70's/80's. Then, after she turned 12 (still an 11 year old softball wise), she played up on a 14U travel team and started seeing pitching in the mid-50's or so, and I quickly figured out that I needed to help her make some adjustments. So, here I am, on sites like this one, trying to sift through the chaff to find the good stuff :)

Hopefully it's not too late for my 13 (soon to be 14 :crazy ) DD and my 10 year old son, and definitely not for my 2 year old DD (who will start out T-ball batting left-handed, even though she seems to be right handed).

[callyjr]

That's my point. It doesn't. Certainly he has worked with great hitters. I just don't see them doing, in ML games, what I see and hear him teaching. Perhaps if he added the changes to his drills that you use, it might be better.


Perhaps the drills are simply to help create muscle memory and when the kid actually fits the muscle memory to a swing it ends up working. you gotta ask yourself even as big an Englishby follower you are who is in the pro's currently that trained using his system. No saying his product isn't working for youth hitters, but the proof is in the pudding isn't it.

[jofus]

Last time I checked Steve didn't have players that he trained at the next level, Epstein has quite a few. Somehow what he teaching is what they are doing.


This is a serious question, because I really don't know the answer...How long has each of them been instructing batters?

I know Epstein played, obviously, and coached at the MLB level, and has been doing this for years. I also know Steve played (only trip-A, I believe, but that still isn't bad), and I have seen him mention some of the faults that he feels he had at that time that kept him from advancing to the show. But, I don't know how long each of them has actually been working with younger batters?

Another thing, has Epstein ever changed his position on anything he has taught in the past? The reason I ask (I'm not flaming, I'm really curious), is because you can see so much more what is going on in a swing with video than you can with the naked eye, and video has improved a ton over the last 30 years, so I would have to think that it is possible to look at "good" swings with a lot more attention to detail now than you could even 10 years ago, right?

I've heard players in baseball and other sports say before "when I do xxx, I do yyy", and when you actually watch them on video, that isn't exactly how they do it. That just proves that some people are naturals and don't really think about what they are doing when they hit a ball, or whatever, imho.

[Mark H]

lets get real, Lets not bring Steve into this, we have already established that spinners don't make it in the MLB. And we have already established even HG(our local pro) does not think Steve's product holds up to a MLB swing. I am to the point that I am ready to war, you keep going and I'll jump all over Steve and Chris. If that what you all want to see? I have been very nice up to this point. Last time I checked Steve didn't have players that he trained at the next level, Epstein has quite a few. Somehow what he teaching is what they are doing.

Lets not bring Steve into this!!

If you have something specific Steve teaches you disagree with I'd be happy to discuss. No rancor. Keep in mind as you modulate your anger I've often said you know more than Mike. Or at least more than Mike shows in his materials. At one time I was a Mike guy and a Steve skeptic myself. In any case, I don't think it'll kill anyone to read everything available out there and compare it to slow motion video of the best in the world. By all means, let Mike be one of those studied and compared to.

[Mark H]

for my 2 year old DD (who will start out T-ball batting left-handed, even though she seems to be right handed).

:) attaway.

[callyjr]

Here is a kid that came to me 2 years ago, I don't have a copy of the before swing but his bat path was down to the ball, thats what his HS teaches. Dad decided to buy the DVD instead of using me because it was cheaper. He has 2 boys. Dad asked me to fine tune the kid recently and thats why I am involved again. I have not touched him as of yet, this is a pure Epstein DVD swing. I think you honestly say his swing does not have your Epstein features you all like to discuss. He will be a senior this year and is on the radar to get drafted.

http://hitrotational.com/Mike's%20Stuff/Even%20edited.mov

[Mark H]

Perhaps the drills are simply to help create muscle memory

That's what I figured they were for.


and when the kid actually fits the muscle memory to a swing it ends up working.

So they practice one pattern and it turns into another pattern when they swing? I'm really not trying to be a smart @$$. I'm asking you to consider what you are saying.


you gotta ask yourself even as big an Englishby follower you are who is in the pro's currently that trained using his system. No saying his product isn't working for youth hitters, but the proof is in the pudding isn't it.

Well when Steve has been doing it as long as Mike has and had the quality players walk through his system because of Ted's name and Mike's career and has sold tens of thousands of tapes and cd's, then I'll consider the difference in number of pro players. If my mom had had the same players work with her on hitting I'm pretty sure the exact same number would be in the pros. I'm also sure she would not have helped the huge numbers of terrible hitters become more successful the way he has and I salute him for that. I do criticize him for what I believe to be a failure to follow his own saying. Do we teach what we see?

In the meantime, you gotta' ask yourself why you have to go to the my guy has hitters in the pros card. If there were more ammunition in your gun than that, wouldn't you be putting up clips of ML hitters and saying "see, there's the rotation he teaches in his drills". Cally, face it. You know more than he does. You have moved past him in understanding of mechanics. It's time to move past him emotionally. If you think you know more than Steve too, fine. First you have to cut the emotional ties to Mike.

I take the time on you because I see that you have moved past Mike and learned on your own. Mike deserves credit. You deserve more.

Headed to Houston now. Might be tomorrow before I check back in. Best to all.

[callyjr]

If you have something specific Steve teaches you disagree with I'd be happy to discuss. No rancor. Keep in mind as you modulate your anger I've often said you know more than Mike. Or at least more than Mike shows in his materials. At one time I was a Mike guy and a Steve skeptic myself. In any case, I don't think it'll kill anyone to read everything available out there and compare it to slow motion video of the best in the world. By all means, let Mike be one of those studied and compared to.


got any kids playing in the bigs? As much as he fly's around helping people lets see who he claims? I am not a Steve skeptic, thats the thing, I know Steve can help hitters but to claim his methods are better then any others without showing us 1 kid in the bigs its pointless to continue.

[Mark H]

Here is a kid that came to me 2 years ago, I don't have a copy of the before swing but his bat path was down to the ball, thats what his HS teaches. Dad decided to buy the DVD instead of using me because it was cheaper. He has 2 boys. Dad asked me to fine tune the kid recently and thats why I am involved again. I have not touched him as of yet, this is a pure Epstein DVD swing. I think you honestly say his swing does not have your Epstein features you all like to discuss. He will be a senior this year and is on the radar to get drafted.

http://hitrotational.com/Mike's%20Stuff/Even%20edited.mov

OK, took my laptop with me.

First of all, I don't see Mike so much in this kid's swing as I see Callyjr. Second, I'm perfectly willing to stipulate that Mike's system can improve poor youth hitters. I've said that many times. We also know Mike has hitters he's worked with in the bigs so that's way beyond this clip so I don't see the point. Question is, do MLB hitters look like the movements Mike teaches with his drills. Answer is, Calllyjr modified the drills for the better because Callyjr teaches better stuff than Mike does and can't quite deal with being smarter than his mentor.

[callyjr]

OK, took my laptop with me.

First of all, I don't see Mike so much in this kid's swing as I see Callyjr. Second, I'm perfectly willing to stipulate that Mike's system can improve poor youth hitters. I've said that many times. We also know Mike has hitters he's worked with in the bigs so that's way beyond this clip so I don't see the point. Question is, do MLB hitters look like the movements Mike teaches with his drills. Answer is, Calllyjr modified the drills for the better because Callyjr teaches better stuff than Mike does and can't quite deal with being smarter than his mentor.


Maybe I didn't say it clear enough, I have never worked with this kid, this is a pure Epstein DVD swing. His coaches don't touch him.

Thats my point, you guys don't see the finished product, all you see if the kid learning the swing. you pass judgment on a day 5 or day 6 swing. Once the kid learns the muscle memory then they cna make the swing more their own.


I will add a couple things hopefully, I am trying to get some weight shift for him and trying to get his bat in a better load position. Once we add weight shift we will see what changes and go from there.

[Mark H]

You said you fine tuned him. I'd say hitters watch good hitters, experiment and find a way to over come reverse weight shift, lack of tilt and all those other things listed in the past few days..

[Mark H]

I will add a couple things hopefully, I am trying to get some weight shift for him and trying to get his bat in a better load position. Once we add weight shift we will see what changes and go from there.

Like I said, you know more than Mike.

[callyjr]

You said you fine tuned him. I'd say hitters watch good hitters, experiment and find a way to over come reverse weight shift, lack of tilt and all those other things listed in the past few days..

i said his dad called me for fine tuning, i have yet to touch him. His game swing doesn't reverse like that

[Mark H]

Good on both counts.

[Ursa Major]

CallyJr said: "I have never once attacked Chris outside of an Epstein bashing."I didn't mean to attribute to you all of the attacks on Chris that I criticized, and want to correct that if anyone inferred that I did.

And, in the subsequent posts -- as Mark H highlights -- you seem to agree that one should, rather than relying on any one person's system -- take what is beneficial from various teachers and fine tune it for your own personal style and for the particularly kid. Sure, if you have to pick one DVD to get a kid to watch, you may be more or less "stuck" with the basic foundation of one guy's system. Heck, the first hitting DVD I bought was Jack Mankin's, and I let Ursa Minor see the first half of it, and then shut it off before he got to the stuff I'd come to see was not helpful. But, for a ten year old kid and his Dad (me), it was very helfpul in moving him to the next stage.

I think anyone who relies on the "how many MLB players" have you coached argument is on pretty shaky ground, particularly when it comes to talking about youth teaching. Dusty Baker was a highly regarded hitting coach before he managed, and his advice to youth hitters really sucks. And -- even if you assume that Steve E.'s advice isn't the ticket for major leaguers -- he's got a ton of youth hitters and their parents who swear by him and his results. Who should they rely on? Heck, if I had a DD starting softball play, I'd kick all of those DVD's out of my library and go see SSarge for advice, 'cuz he's walked the walk with 'em time after time. That's credentials enough for me.

[ssarge]

Thank you, Ursa, that is amzingly flattering, and I appreciate it. And would like to add I admire the work you've done with your own son.

A guy I instruct with is Phil Mumma, of the Sorcerers. He has long been pretty successful, but in the past two years has been greatly influenced by Steve. Phil is putting an astonishing number of hitters into D1s. We're both working out of Phil's place in Concord, and you are welcome any time.

Best regards,

Scott

[ssarge]

Cally:

There is absolutely no question in my mind that your hitters look much better than the hitters Epstein chooses to illustrate on his site.

And, your hitters look better than mine did when I was implementing Epstein's stuff pretty religiously. You have a knack. Which I believe is Mark's point, and he means it as a compliment. I am at a loss to understand why you don't accept it as one.

I didn't re-read this whole thread, but my sense is that the consensus is that Mike's approach helps most youth hitters. Hardly a criticism, and as I have stated many times, it is what I believe..

Of course, it's a matter of degree. A point that some have leveled (again, me included) is that they have found approaches which help kids MORE as they matriculate to higher levels.

Your response is that Mike has worked with hitters, and apparently been RESPONSIBLE for putting them in the pros. I think that is dubious (no doubt he was an influence, but most pro hitters have had MANY influencers), but all of that is just my opinion. Regardless of how anyone feels about THAT, it doesn't change someone elses experience. It is perfectly valid for someone to report back on what has worked best for THEM as an instructor. And valid to present impressions as to why it may be, points of disagreement with previously tried methodologies, etc.

Just as it is valid for you to report on your fine experience. When you say Epstein has worked well for you, people seem to be accepting that, and are happy for you, and impressed with the results you've garnered. The only REMOTELY critical observation is that your hitters look different than the hitters Epstein chooses to highlight on his site, and different than the hitters many of us developed while using his material. (The later isn't opinion, it is FACT, and it's a positive towards you, NOT a criticism.) Yours look better. Take it as a positive, and relax. If you really want to get introspective, perhaps you can talk about what you do beyond Epstein's 3 drills, how you modify them, how you have incorporated the arms / hands / connection into the swing (which he ignores in his published materials), etc. THAT has value.

And I think you should also consider that this site is lagely populated by dads working with their kids, and most of them are NOT in a position to successfully refine one methodology, pick-and-choose from others, add, delete, etc. You ARE, and that is great. You've done it very well. But to assume others could realistically do the same is to assume more than is warranted, IMO.


Anyway, please don't tell folks like me that our experience doesn't have value. Each of our esperience is what it is, and I think it deserves to be respectfully evaluated. The onus is on the poster to make a point which survives peer review and is credible, but whether or not someone is successful in that, they have a right to post their opinion and their experience. Suspect you agree, and I hope that we all can move on.

Thanks and regards,

Scott

[Jake Patterson]

Pick any specific teaching situation....
School teachers generally pick specific teaching levels for several reasons, the primary reason is they have identified the level in which they feel they would best enjoy. Another, very important reason, is many identify those areas they are not particularly suited. Most elementary teachers would not do well in a college environment and vise-versa.

Why would we feel baseball is different? When we make skill training technique-centric versus student-centric we can get in big trouble.

[1chapterahead]

Pick any specific teaching situation....
School teachers generally pick specific teaching levels for several reasons, the primary reason is they have identified the level in which they feel they would best enjoy. Another, very important reason, is many identify those areas they are not particularly suited. Most elementary teachers would not do well in a college environment and vise-versa.

Why would we feel baseball is different? When we make skill training technique-centric versus student-centric we can get in big trouble.Jake, who taught all of those great hitters how to hit in the days before "hitting instructors"? Seems to me that some of you like to complicate things to the point that the message is lost. You are not the teacher here, the game is....

[omg]

Jake, who taught all of those great hitters how to hit in the days before "hitting instructors"? Seems to me that some of you like to complicate things to the point that the message is lost. You are not the teacher here, the game is....

There seem to be fewer successful major leaguers who use Enlishbey, Epstein, O'Leary, and the others than succesful hitters who use my favorite hitting method:the Dominican System.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake, who taught all of those great hitters how to hit in the days before "hitting instructors"? Seems to me that some of you like to complicate things to the point that the message is lost. You are not the teacher here, the game is....
You're preaching to the choir. I have often said that while stand neck deep in our own minutia, our students drown.

[1chapterahead]

There seem to be fewer successful major leaguers who use Enlishbey, Epstein, O'Leary, and the others than succesful hitters who use my favorite hitting method:the Dominican System.Go figure!They probably like the K.I.S.S method, although I'm sure it translates differently.:laugh

[callyjr]

Go figure!They probably like the K.I.S.S method, although I'm sure it translates differently.:laugh

I heard Steve has been flying down training them :) Just playing!!

[BallCoach06]

There seem to be fewer successful major leaguers who use Enlishbey, Epstein, O'Leary, and the others than succesful hitters who use my favorite hitting method:the Dominican System.

I have grown more aware of the "Dominican System" over the past couple of years. I have become a strong believer that many times this game is over taught, especially in the U.S. How many of the Dominican, Latin, Cuban, etc., etc., players had personal instructors growing up? How many had video analysis growing up?

I have really made a focus to incorporate this into my coaching over the past couple of years, especially when working with my infielders. I still show them fundamental stuff, but for the most part, I tell them to put themselves in the best position to make the play and they are able to do it without me even really telling or showing them what it is. I want their athletic ability to kick in and not so much a mechanical 1-2-3 approach.

I was scouting a kid this past summer and a parent asked me what I look for in an infielder. First thing I told him, "an athlete". Obviously there are other things for sure, but bottom line I am looking for athletes and playmakers.

Taking this back to Epstein and hitting thread. I keep seeing posts about this "guru" will only take a kid this far, etc., etc., but how do we really know it is a "guru" or system causing that. Could it possibly be that the athleticism and ability of the player has finally reached it's max at a certain age and no matter what type of swing he is taught, it will not matter because they have met their match?

[callyjr]

Taking this back to Epstein and hitting thread. I keep seeing posts about this "guru" will only take a kid this far, etc., etc., but how do we really know it is a "guru" or system causing that. Could it possibly be that the athleticism and ability of the player has finally reached it's max at a certain age and no matter what type of swing he is taught, it will not matter because they have met their match?

I agree 100%,

[mudvnine]

Could it possibly be that the athleticism and ability of the player has finally reached it's max at a certain age and no matter what type of swing he is taught, it will not matter because they have met their match?

Yes, we all tend to rise to our highest level of incompetence and no further; whether it be on the ball field or in the boardroom (just an expression BM . . . don't read into it). :D

[ssarge]

Mozart learned to play the piano on his own, too (actually, it was probably the harpsichord, but it doesn't mute the point).

Most kids NEED some instruction to play the piano competently. Or vocal instruction. Or academic tutoring. Or a demonstration of how best to work with wood, or sew, or anything else.

There are always savants, and if your kid is one of them for ballistic movement - or any other skill - God bless you. And him / her.


Those who DO need instruction will probably never be Mozart, that's true.

On the other hand (assuming they're taught ompetently), they'll be a lot better than they would have been without the instruction. And in the area of hitting a ball, they can probably be good enough to play in college with average athletecism and outstanding mechanics.

[ssarge]

Could it possibly be that the athleticism and ability of the player has finally reached it's max at a certain age and no matter what type of swing he is taught, it will not matter because they have met their match?


In some cases, I'm sure this is true. Not all cases.

Kids I worked with when I was emphsizing Epstein subsequently went further when began to utilize different methodology. My daughter for one (though far from uniquely). She is a D1 scholarship softball player. She's a freshman, so it's yet to be seen how she'll do. But in my estimation, she'd almost certainly not have earned this scholarship had we stuck with our previous course.

Just one guys experience, do with it what you will.

Regards,

Scott

[omg]

I have grown more aware of the "Dominican System" over the past couple of years. I have become a strong believer that many times this game is over taught, especially in the U.S. How many of the Dominican, Latin, Cuban, etc., etc., players had personal instructors growing up? How many had video analysis growing up?

I have really made a focus to incorporate this into my coaching over the past couple of years, especially when working with my infielders. I still show them fundamental stuff, but for the most part, I tell them to put themselves in the best position to make the play and they are able to do it without me even really telling or showing them what it is. I want their athletic ability to kick in and not so much a mechanical 1-2-3 approach.

I was scouting a kid this past summer and a parent asked me what I look for in an infielder. First thing I told him, "an athlete". Obviously there are other things for sure, but bottom line I am looking for athletes and playmakers.

Taking this back to Epstein and hitting thread. I keep seeing posts about this "guru" will only take a kid this far, etc., etc., but how do we really know it is a "guru" or system causing that. Could it possibly be that the athleticism and ability of the player has finally reached it's max at a certain age and no matter what type of swing he is taught, it will not matter because they have met their match?

Even Williams and Lau with their scientific methods said this:

Lau: The single best thing a hitter can do is take bp on a field and try to hit every damn ball at the pitcher's forehead."

Williams:"When I was facing a really tough pitcher or the lights were bad.....I would make sure that I went uo the middle..."

Dominican (fill in the blank)Player of the Game Interview: "I dunno maink, I just try to go back through the box, I no try to do too much..."

[hitnpeas]

Yes, we all tend to rise to our highest level of incompetence and no further; whether it be on the ball field or in the boardroom (just an expression BM . . . don't read into it). :D

Although I am very incompetent and seem to have reached the highest level attainable by mankind, I still strive to take it to a higher level. Call it the perfectionist in me....

[hitnpeas]

lets get real, Lets not bring Steve into this, we have already established that spinners don't make it in the MLB. And we have already established even HG(our local pro) does not think Steve's product holds up to a MLB swing. I am to the point that I am ready to war, you keep going and I'll jump all over Steve and Chris. If that what you all want to see? I have been very nice up to this point. Last time I checked Steve didn't have players that he trained at the next level, Epstein has quite a few. Somehow what he teaching is what they are doing.

Lets not bring Steve into this!!


lmao.... Let the internet war begin!!

Come on man.... Do you not think you might be taking this a tad too serious? :nod:

http://vgtshirts.com/toughguy.jpg

[HYP]

Hi,

I'm new to this forum and was reading this thread and felt like chiming in.

The first post, which is now removed asked about the Epstein Enforcer drill and had a clip of someone doing it completely wrong and they were wondering why someone should do this drill.

First the drill can be done from the torque position or in the numbers drill. The reason why the gentleman was chicken winging so bad was

1) he didn't start with his front foot slightly open
2) he just bends at the waist and turns his shoulders with his hips

The reason this is called the enforcer drill and not the fence drill is significant. You are trying to enforce something/over exagerate. The lead hip must clear creating space for the rear hip to go. The shoulders must laterally tilt allowing for seperation between upper and lower body. If this were to happen, no chicken wing. The gentleman doing the drill does none of this. Actually what he is doing is what this drill is trying to stop, spinning and it does if applied correctly.

Epsteins' drills will help get you into the pattern of a MLB swing. Obviously you are not going to start with the bat against the deltoid when at the plate. But the bat will pass near the deltoid as it is on its way to contact. What must you do to get the bat to do that? It doesn't matter where you start, Tipped to the opposite field, back at the pitcher or not tipped at all but it will pass through the positions that Epstein teaches at some point in the swing process.

As far as coaching kids who have gotten to the next level. My goal as an instructor is to help kids reach thier potential period and to give them the skills to be able to enjoy the game for as long as possible. I believe Tommy Lasorda said, " Everyone reaches their day of reckoning". I think some just reach it earlier then others. To say someone got so and so to the pros doesn't always mean a whole lot to me. I coached a pitcher in high school who is currently playing in the pros and I could go on here and take credit for it but the fact of the matter is he was a stud and had numerous pitching coaches.

I would like to say that IMO Mike Epstein is the closest to a MLB swing then I have seen from other instructors.

HYP

[Mark H]

As always, compare everything anyone says about hitting to slow motion video of the best in the world.

[HYP]

As always, compare everything anyone says about hitting to slow motion video of the best in the world.
I watch slow motion video all the time and then I watch at normal speed and then stop frame. The problem is you can draw almost any conclusion as to what an MLB hitter is doing by cycling through frame by frame. Get out and swing to feel, works good also. Talk to MLB hitters and hear what they say and if you can't talk to them, listen to them whenever you can.

example, when I watch a MLB hitter hit I see the rear elbow slot and the lead elbow work up. Is this acheived by driving down the rear elbow and raising the lead elbow or is it acheived by the hands/forearms turning the bat causing the elbows to move? I see the shoulders tilt, is this caused by bending at the waist or is it caused by the hands/forearms making the rear elbow go down and the lead elbow go up, along with the back knee and rear hip driving forward?

Why do we disregard what the Pros say? I hear people say " they don't know what they're doing, they just do it". Why do the Pros talk so much about the hands? Why do they talk so much about hitting down on the ball? David Wright went so far as to say he wants to feel his hands, he wants to feel them working and that he wants his shoulders to feel like they are doing nothing. Through video we can see that they are not hitting down on the ball but that is what they feel. You can get video of someone who through slow motion resembles the pattern of a MLB swing but they are not even close.

See you can draw just about any conclussion from slow motion video. You say compare what anyone says about hitting to slow motion video of the best in the world. I have!

I say if you want to compare to the best I would suggest listening to them also.

HYP

[Jake Patterson]

Let the internet war begin!!
That won't happen here. Those going down this road will be banned. Lighten up!
Jake
101 Mod

[1chapterahead]

I watch slow motion video all the time and then I watch at normal speed and then stop frame. The problem is you can draw almost any conclusion as to what an MLB hitter is doing by cycling through frame by frame. Get out and swing to feel, works good also. Talk to MLB hitters and hear what they say and if you can't talk to them, listen to them whenever you can.

example, when I watch a MLB hitter hit I see the rear elbow slot and the lead elbow work up. Is this acheived by driving down the rear elbow and raising the lead elbow or is it acheived by the hands/forearms turning the bat causing the elbows to move? I see the shoulders tilt, is this caused by bending at the waist or is it caused by the hands/forearms making the rear elbow go down and the lead elbow go up, along with the back knee and rear hip driving forward?

Why do we disregard what the Pros say? I hear people say " they don't know what they're doing, they just do it". Why do the Pros talk so much about the hands? Why do they talk so much about hitting down on the ball? David Wright went so far as to say he wants to feel his hands, he wants to feel them working and that he wants his shoulders to feel like they are doing nothing. Through video we can see that they are not hitting down on the ball but that is what they feel. You can get video of someone who through slow motion resembles the pattern of a MLB swing but they are not even close.

See you can draw just about any conclussion from slow motion video. You say compare what anyone says about hitting to slow motion video of the best in the world. I have!

I say if you want to compare to the best I would suggest listening to them also.

HYP
Welcome and good luck! be warned, Mark is like an energizer bunny.

[Mark H]

Rather than irritate Cally again, suffice it to say some don't see at all what Mike sees when he looks at video of ML hitters. This has been analyzed in depth on here and the search function will give those interested more reading than they likely want. I do appreciate Cally's recognition of the need for modifying the drills. I'd like to see Epstein pick up on those mods and more.

[ssarge]

The first post, which is now removed asked about the Epstein Enforcer drill and had a clip of someone doing it completely wrong and they were wondering why someone should do this drill.

The person doing the drill is a professional instructor who was heavily influenced by Epstein. FWIW.

[omg]

I watch slow motion video all the time and then I watch at normal speed and then stop frame. The problem is you can draw almost any conclusion as to what an MLB hitter is doing by cycling through frame by frame. Get out and swing to feel, works good also. Talk to MLB hitters and hear what they say and if you can't talk to them, listen to them whenever you can.

example, when I watch a MLB hitter hit I see the rear elbow slot and the lead elbow work up. Is this acheived by driving down the rear elbow and raising the lead elbow or is it acheived by the hands/forearms turning the bat causing the elbows to move? I see the shoulders tilt, is this caused by bending at the waist or is it caused by the hands/forearms making the rear elbow go down and the lead elbow go up, along with the back knee and rear hip driving forward?

Why do we disregard what the Pros say? I hear people say " they don't know what they're doing, they just do it". Why do the Pros talk so much about the hands? Why do they talk so much about hitting down on the ball? David Wright went so far as to say he wants to feel his hands, he wants to feel them working and that he wants his shoulders to feel like they are doing nothing. Through video we can see that they are not hitting down on the ball but that is what they feel. You can get video of someone who through slow motion resembles the pattern of a MLB swing but they are not even close.

See you can draw just about any conclussion from slow motion video. You say compare what anyone says about hitting to slow motion video of the best in the world. I have!

I say if you want to compare to the best I would suggest listening to them also.

HYP

This makes sense to me. Anyways, the top "system" for big leaguers recently is:spread your feet out wide,don't hardly stride,take steroids-swing hard in case you hit it.

[HYP]

The person doing the drill is a professional instructor who was heavily influenced by Epstein. FWIW.
I to have been influenced by Epstein and I can tell you that he is doing the drill wrong. Personally I don't do the drill all the time but I do have use for it in certain situations.

HYP

[callyjr]

The person doing the drill is a professional instructor who was heavily influenced by Epstein. FWIW.

The person doing the drill was not doing it correctly.

[callyjr]

lmao.... Let the internet war begin!!

Come on man.... Do you not think you might be taking this a tad too serious? :nod:

http://vgtshirts.com/toughguy.jpg


I am not taking it to serious. You have a guy that attacks and attacks without anyone exposing him. Its common knowledge this board is one sided with Englishby supporters. Englishby like any of the others has its faults. I personally don't have an interest in worrying about it, but enough is enough. and you of all people bring nothing positive to the conversation, always taking shots at people. Must feel good at the end of the day huh?

And of course Jake wouldn't allow a war when it has anything to do with exposing his preferred Guru. I understand.

[Mark H]

The person doing the drill was not doing it correctly.

Don't remember if he was trying to or was trying to make some other point but as I recall he was an Epstein guy at one time.

[kylebee]

Huh? There are plenty of Yeager supporters on this board, though many stopped posting. I don't think too many people will disagree that Dr. Chris Yeager has the best working knowledge of how the MLB swing is patterned.

EDIT: As for Jake and Nyman (hitting) and Coach45 (throwing), the former gets plenty of crap on this board while the latter is pretty much well-liked by all for his acceptance of Dr. Marshall's better ideas and desire to continue learning (and interest in his son, who may have a solid future ahead of him).

[Mark H]

Huh? There are plenty of Yeager supporters on this board, though many stopped posting. I don't think too many people will disagree that Dr. Chris Yeager has the best working knowledge of how the MLB swing is patterned.
.

Well I've seen some pretty hopeful things posted lately by his guys but that series of pushes idea was just goofy. He may very well be good. Jury's still out for me.

[callyjr]

Don't remember if he was trying to or was trying to make some other point but as I recall he was an Epstein guy at one time.


He was and I believe probably one of the better Epstein instructors. the thing is we all get to a point where we are in a sense competing with Jake and Mike and then its time to move on from their umbrella. I personally like hanging under the umbrella.

[Mark H]

I know and you know I think you are better than that.

[Ursa Major]

The guy who made the fence drill clip -- Jim Booth -- was trying to make a very small point about the connection between your basic fence drill movements and actual MLB game-type movements. Then, as now it turned into a free-for-all as to whether he was doing the drill correctly, which really wasn't what he was focusing on. I think it would do us all a world of good if everyone deleted the d&%$ clip from their video libraries, and maybe someone posted a new video of someone doing it correctly who intendsfor it to be a demonstration.

It's interesting that Jim made a journey similar to many. He once was a very avid and certified Epstein instructor who worked closely with Epstein. But, like many, he found too many divergences between what he himself came to believe and what Epstein was teaching. (Plus, you gotta pay to keep that certification label.) Jim's specialty was working with kids in the 10-16 age group (but also worked with some pros) and actually made a living at it in his own facility until the landlord needed the space for something else, and in his facility got hung up in Northern California environmental over-planning limbo.

Before he moved to Arizona, I met with him a few times and realized what a great teacher he is, which gets to the point I want to make. Jim exerts a tremendous amount of energy trying to figure out better and more effective ways to teach good hitting, and is one of the most innovative teachers I've met. One comment he made is one we should all live by -- "I have 30 different ways to describe how a hitter should do something, because you never know which one of them is going to stick with a kid -- it may be the 30th way I tell it to him" (or something like that). So, for those who tend to think that there's one good way to describe or drill a particular movement or swing component, I think you're misguided. Each kid comes to you with a completely different set of habits, muscle movement memories, fears, past rewards, and musculatures. You can't know which pathways he has to bridge and/or bypass to get to the movement pattern you want, until you try a few. For example, for kids who just happen to be good basketball players, I have a few basketball analogies to use so that the kid can transfer that set of trained muscles to his baseball swing -- a form of shortcut.

[Ursa Major]

HYP said, "My goal as an instructor is to help kids reach thier potential period and to give them the skills to be able to enjoy the game for as long as possible."Hyp, welcome to our humble community. Anyone who starts with this philosophy can sit down and get me to buy him a beer any time. The real perspective to take as far as being a success in coaching is to look at it from the point of view of the individual parent deciding on what kind of help to give his or her kid. The issue isn't whether you can help get a superathlete from Single-A to Triple-AAA ball -- it's the extent to which you can help get Junior as far as he can go given his individual physical and mental makeup.

And you make an excellent point about how much we can really see in the swings of top level hitters, even in slow motion. You can't really see what goes on under the uniform as to some key movements. So, people fill in the ambiguities with their own preconceptions about what is successful. But, as MarkH points out, for a pretty good hitter, you don't need to know exactly what Albert Pujols does in order to benefit by trying to do the more obvious movements in a way that Pujols unquestionably does. And, of course, that video can be even more helpful in in detecting the flaws in the swing of an emerging hitter, who may at full speed look like he's doing everything well but mysteriously isn't getting the power or contact that he ought to.

[callyjr]

think it would do us all a world of good if everyone deleted the d&%$ clip from their video libraries[/I][/B], and maybe someone posted a new video of someone doing it correctly who intendsfor it to be a demonstration.


I may have something. I'll look

[hitnpeas]

That won't happen here. Those going down this road will be banned. Lighten up!
Jake
101 Mod

I said it with sarcasm Jake.... Internet war!! lmao!! :D

[hitnpeas]

I am not taking it to serious. You have a guy that attacks and attacks without anyone exposing him. Its common knowledge this board is one sided with Englishby supporters. Englishby like any of the others has its faults. I personally don't have an interest in worrying about it, but enough is enough. and you of all people bring nothing positive to the conversation, always taking shots at people. Must feel good at the end of the day huh?

And of course Jake wouldn't allow a war when it has anything to do with exposing his preferred Guru. I understand.


Reading the BOLD, the word HYPOCRIT comes to mind.... So what if the board is full of SE supporters? What difference does it (should it) make to you? It sounds like you have a knack for instructing. Maybe stick to that and see what it brings you. Worrying about what Chris, Mark, Jake, or anybody else has to say about your boy Epstein really seems to spool you up!! You tweak his drills as well so aren't you in effect saying you don't totally agree with him either? Listen, I am not the only one that is irritated by your actions. Ive received several PM's about it and trust me, they aren't coming to your defense. Threats of war? WTH is that? lmao!!....

Just curious, wasn't there a time where you had little knowledge about rotational hitting and started in search of a better way? Now you seem to have a grasp of it and so you sit around and cast stones at anyone who doesn't see it your way, questions Epstein's drills or someone who doesn't understand it as well (bring anything to the table?) I will be the first to admit I don't know the swing inside/out like some of you guys on here do, but I am doing what I can to obtain the information I need to help my kids get better. Probably a place you were in once upon a time....Something to chew on before you cast your next stone. Peace!!

[omg]

... and you of all people bring nothing positive to the conversation, always taking shots at people. Must feel good at the end of the day huh?


I'm trying to learn. I'm skeptical that a "system" which focuses on physical mechanics is key to improving hitters when my experience is that mental mechanics are where it's at. Hitting balls into nets,video, and suspect drills? I know these are important tools but they deceive frequently.

[Jake Patterson]

And of course Jake wouldn't allow a war when it has anything to do with exposing his preferred Guru. I understand.
Cally, we really do need to talk. PM me your phone number and I will call. If you are uncomfortable with that I will send you mine.

Please see my post above complimenting Mike.

[Jake Patterson]

I said it with sarcasm Jake.... Internet war!! lmao!! :D

Thanks .

[callyjr]

Reading the BOLD, the word HYPOCRIT comes to mind.... So what if the board is full of SE supporters? What difference does it (should it) make to you? It sounds like you have a knack for instructing. Maybe stick to that and see what it brings you. Worrying about what Chris, Mark, Jake, or anybody else has to say about your boy Epstein really seems to spool you up!! You tweak his drills as well so aren't you in effect saying you don't totally agree with him either? Listen, I am not the only one that is irritated by your actions. Ive received several PM's about it and trust me, they aren't coming to your defense. Threats of war? WTH is that? lmao!!....

Just curious, wasn't there a time where you had little knowledge about rotational hitting and started in search of a better way? Now you seem to have a grasp of it and so you sit around and cast stones at anyone who doesn't see it your way, questions Epstein's drills or someone who doesn't understand it as well (bring anything to the table?) I will be the first to admit I don't know the swing inside/out like some of you guys on here do, but I am doing what I can to obtain the information I need to help my kids get better. Probably a place you were in once upon a time....Something to chew on before you cast your next stone. Peace!!


Hitnpeas,

I feel your concerns. Please understand I do not cast stones unless I feel they have been thrown first. I have never started a thread saying Chris or Steve or anyone does this and i can't believe he does it!! In this case Chris took another shot at Epstein like he has in the past. Yes it directly effects me when he does this. Why cannot I throw stones back without you guys freaking out. You all want to support Chris because he is one of your guys and your glasses are clouded so thatyou don't think his stones tha he is throwing are stones at all. I don't care if privately you talk to people and don't like that I am defending my position.

I think you can go back through my many posts over the last years and see that my passion for helping others on the site was once very high until the PCR guys starting bashing and argueing so much. The arguements get old and don't usually do much good. It has only driven the better instructors away or at least slowed them way down. Its been a very long time since we have had good instruction for the new dads on here.

Everyone always wants me to defend the drills and explain them, I don't know that I have seen any of Steve's drills on this forum. Purpose for this? Keep the money coming in. Same thing goes for Epstein drills, I cannot go into great depth about the drills on the forum because of this.

You say your here to learn, but I never see you trying to learn, instead you always taking shots at people. I can count on both hands how many times people have made comments to you about taking shots.

you want me to chill, then quit making the digs. You wanna learn like a lot of people on here then do so. We all learn through debate, the problem is the PCR guys have chased away the good instructors and there is not much debate anymore. If people are here to learn then lets learn, but to knock someone is not helping learn is it?

If I have offended anyone along the way I apologize and will try harder in the future.

Cally

[hitnpeas]

Hitnpeas,

I feel your concerns. Please understand I do not cast stones unless I feel they have been thrown first. I have never started a thread saying Chris or Steve or anyone does this and i can't believe he does it!! In this case Chris took another shot at Epstein like he has in the past. Yes it directly effects me when he does this. Why cannot I throw stones back without you guys freaking out. You all want to support Chris because he is one of your guys and your glasses are clouded so thatyou don't think his stones tha he is throwing are stones at all. I don't care if privately you talk to people and don't like that I am defending my position.

I think you can go back through my many posts over the last years and see that my passion for helping others on the site was once very high until the PCR guys starting bashing and argueing so much. The arguements get old and don't usually do much good. It has only driven the better instructors away or at least slowed them way down. Its been a very long time since we have had good instruction for the new dads on here.

Everyone always wants me to defend the drills and explain them, I don't know that I have seen any of Steve's drills on this forum. Purpose for this? Keep the money coming in. Same thing goes for Epstein drills, I cannot go into great depth about the drills on the forum because of this.

You say your here to learn, but I never see you trying to learn, instead you always taking shots at people. I can count on both hands how many times people have made comments to you about taking shots.

you want me to chill, then quit making the digs. You wanna learn like a lot of people on here then do so. We all learn through debate, the problem is the PCR guys have chased away the good instructors and there is not much debate anymore. If people are here to learn then lets learn, but to knock someone is not helping learn is it?

If I have offended anyone along the way I apologize and will try harder in the future.

Cally


Cally,

Thanks for the response!! I learn a lot from READING the threads and using what I gather as a study guide. I cut/paste a lot of material that is posted here and I save it into an ever changing word document. Although you may not see me post questions, I am still learning a lot each and every day I spend sifting through many quality threads.

I will not deny I have posted my share of digs. If BS is posted about some 475' HR, or about a kid that is 8 and hits like he is 16, or the -3 Nitro being a quality bat. Well, those posts deserve what they get.... It might seem like a lot of digs, most likely because a lot of them have been directed towards you. I enjoy the debates, and have learned a lot from the different camps that post here. I initially felt like I was drinking from a firehose trying to learn about the swing. Although I don't have it mastered by any stretch, I will continue to grasp for knowledge every chance I get with the strong desire to teach my boys the best possible way.

FWIW, I don't know Chris so I don't come here looking to defend him. I do see, as is evident in your post (see bolded text) who you hold responsible for all of this. Even in making an apology, you still find the opportunity to throw in a dig or two of your own. Just more fuel for the fire I guess.... :crazy

[hitnpeas]

Thanks .

NP Jake.... Enjoy your weekend!! Probably not taking any OUTDOOR BP I am guessing!! :laugh

[Jake Patterson]

NP Jake.... Enjoy your weekend!! Probably not taking any OUTDOOR BP I am guessing!! :laugh
Practicing my rotational snow shoveling with linear release technique. I'll post a clip.

[kylebee]

Practicing my rotational snow shoveling with linear release technique. I'll post a clip.

Sounds like a poor way to get extension. Hope you don't mind snow 2 feet in front of you from where you released it! :laugh

[callyjr]

I'm trying to learn. I'm skeptical that a "system" which focuses on physical mechanics is key to improving hitters when my experience is that mental mechanics are where it's at. Hitting balls into nets,video, and suspect drills? I know these are important tools but they deceive frequently.

with incorrect physical mechanics it doesn't matter how good your mental mechanics are. Sure at the youth levels you can get away with anything as long as you can put the ball in play. Once you reach HS or even the just big field those physical mechanics are gonna more important then not.

[omg]

with incorrect physical mechanics it doesn't matter how good your mental mechanics are. Sure at the youth levels you can get away with anything as long as you can put the ball in play. Once you reach HS or even the just big field those physical mechanics are gonna more important then not.

I couldn't disagree more.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I have been trying to get up to speed on the problems with Epstein's fence drill.


Curious, after nearly 7 pages, do you feel that you are now "up to speed on the problems with Epstein's fence drill"?

[Jake Patterson]

with incorrect physical mechanics it doesn't matter how good your mental mechanics are. Sure at the youth levels you can get away with anything as long as you can put the ball in play. Once you reach HS or even the just big field those physical mechanics are gonna more important then not.I understand Cally's point and agree. High drop bats, slow speeds, and bad mechanics can offer a youngster on a small field some success. Those same deficiencies will be exposed on a big field.

[CoachB25]

At the risk of sounding like Captain Obvious, is this a drill that is absolutely essential to perform in order to impliment Epstein's stuff. I don't like this drill because I've seen a lot of ways kids do it wrong and don't care to have a drill that I have to stand over. I'm betting Cally has seen the opposite and that's fine. However, I think that there are so many other ways to create a compact swing implimenting proper connection that I'd just give this one a pass. In fact, I do give it a pass.

[BigGeorge]

I couldn't disagree more.


I understand Cally's point and agree. High drop bats, slow speeds, and bad mechanics can offer a youngster on a small field some success. Those same deficiencies will be exposed on a big field.


IMO, both of you are right and wrong!


There is a concept that I adhere to called the 85% solution. IMHO, if a hitter (particularly a young hitter) has an 85% competent swing, I believe there is some serious diminishing returns if significant time is devoted to “perfecting” mechanics. A far more useful use of time (again, particularly with young hitters) is visual acuity and tracking development, pitcher study, count strategy, pitch recognition (overspin and underspin) and especially baseball training. I sincerely believe that the minor leaguer on this very board is likely a victim of this. Chances are great that mechanics are NOT what is holding this player back.

High-school, D1, the minors, the show, All-star teams and even the Hall of Fame have a ton of hitters who possess flawed mechanics that were able to overcome those weaknesses by exhibiting mental toughness, superior hand-eye coordination and the ability to put the bat on the ball despite those flawed mechanics. Conversely there is a graveyard of failed players with pretty swings who couldn’t get it done at the plate.

Mechanics are a means to an end. In no way should anyone be deluded to think that they are anything but a small piece of the puzzle. If a hitter does indeed have such bad mechanics to hold him back, certainly time should be spent to get him/her up to speed, but from what I have witnesses over the years, hitters, coaches, parents and hitting instructors often have their priorities backwards.

[callyjr]

I couldn't disagree more.
please explain your thoughts further , I am open to learning.

[callyjr]

Curious, after nearly 7 pages, do you feel that you are now "up to speed on the problems with Epstein's fence drill"?

cute, He quit talking when I started attacking him back. I will be the bigger person and apolgize for that in the forum.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Guess I missed the excitement. I see that he deleted 15 of his own posts ... and from that I speculate that he felt he supported the wrong side of the argument.

[Jake Patterson]

High-school, D1, the minors, the show, All-star teams and even the Hall of Fame have a ton of hitters who possess flawed mechanics that were able to overcome those weaknesses by exhibiting mental toughness, superior hand-eye coordination and the ability to put the bat on the ball despite those flawed mechanics. Conversely there is a graveyard of failed players with pretty swings who couldn’t get it done at the plate.

On this we agree.

[Jake Patterson]

Guess I missed the excitement. I see that he deleted 15 of his own posts ... and from that I speculate that he felt he supported the wrong side of the argument.I feel you have speculated wrong. I believe he is just trying a different approach... We will see.

[callyjr]

IMO, both of you are right and wrong!


There is a concept that I adhere to called the 85% solution. IMHO, if a hitter (particularly a young hitter) has an 85% competent swing, I believe there is some serious diminishing returns if significant time is devoted to “perfecting” mechanics. A far more useful use of time (again, particularly with young hitters) is visual acuity and tracking development, pitcher study, count strategy, pitch recognition (overspin and underspin) and especially baseball training. I sincerely believe that the minor leaguer on this very board is likely a victim of this. Chances are great that mechanics are NOT what is holding this player back.

High-school, D1, the minors, the show, All-star teams and even the Hall of Fame have a ton of hitters who possess flawed mechanics that were able to overcome those weaknesses by exhibiting mental toughness, superior hand-eye coordination and the ability to put the bat on the ball despite those flawed mechanics. Conversely there is a graveyard of failed players with pretty swings who couldn’t get it done at the plate.

Mechanics are a means to an end. In no way should anyone be deluded to think that they are anything but a small piece of the puzzle. If a hitter does indeed have such bad mechanics to hold him back, certainly time should be spent to get him/her up to speed, but from what I have witnesses over the years, hitters, coaches, parents and hitting instructors often have their priorities backwards.

with all due respect BigGeorge can you show me more than a handful of your the show, All-star teams and even the Hall of Fame have a ton of hitters who possess flawed mechanics that were able to overcome those weaknesses by exhibiting mental toughness?

You may have an elite athlete that can overcome bad mechanics with good mental mechanics because he is that elite athlete, but your average Joe is not gonna be able to do so, and honestly how many of us are working with the elite athlete?

I have a kid right now that his swing is soo bad that there is no way no matter how good hs mental side is. No way...



Conversely there is a graveyard of failed players with pretty swings who couldn’t get it done at the plate.



This part I do agree with.

[omg]

please explain your thoughts further , I am open to learning.
Would you teach boxing by analyzing slo-mo video and breaking down a zillion components? I know, it sounds silly. Hitting is essentially boxing. There are of course some very basic technical considerations but the meat and potatoes are training and strategy.

[BigGeorge]

with all due respect BigGeorge can you show me more than a handful of your the show, All-star teams and even the Hall of Fame have a ton of hitters who possess flawed mechanics that were able to overcome those weaknesses by exhibiting mental toughness?

You may have an elite athlete that can overcome bad mechanics with good mental mechanics because he is that elite athlete, but your average Joe is not gonna be able to do so, and honestly how many of us are working with the elite athlete?


The "ton" comment was directed to the combined totals of D1 through the Hall of Fame so more than a handful of all-stars or HOF wouldn't apply. But they are there aren't they? An they are certainly more prevalent than not at Pac-10 baseball and rookie league baseball that I witness every year in Phoenix where I reside. Imperfect mechanics (not necessarily "bad") weren't enough to hold back these players.


I have a kid right now that his swing is so bad that there is no way no matter how good his mental side is. No way...

To repeat, "If a hitter does indeed have such bad mechanics to hold him back, certainly time should be spent to get him/her up to speed".

I am in no way anti-mechanic, but it is too easy to get hung up on mechanics to the detriment of developing the "complete" hitter.

[Mark H]

Developing an effective quick swing is, as you say, only the first step. It is though, the first step.

[Mark H]

One comment he made is one we should all live by -- "I have 30 different ways to describe how a hitter should do something, because you never know which one of them is going to stick with a kid -- it may be the 30th way I tell it to him" (or something like that). So, for those who tend to think that there's one good way to describe or drill a particular movement or swing component, I think you're misguided. Each kid comes to you with a completely different set of habits, muscle movement memories, fears, past rewards, and musculatures. You can't know which pathways he has to bridge and/or bypass to get to the movement pattern you want, until you try a few. For example, for kids who just happen to be good basketball players, I have a few basketball analogies to use so that the kid can transfer that set of trained muscles to his baseball swing -- a form of shortcut.

I'm pretty sure everyone would agree with that. Who is it you think feels otherwise and is thus misguided?

[callyjr]

Would you teach boxing by analyzing slo-mo video and breaking down a zillion components? I know, it sounds silly. Hitting is essentially boxing. There are of course some very basic technical considerations but the meat and potatoes are training and strategy.

I don't know anything about boxing so I cannot relate.

[BigGeorge]

Developing an effective quick swing is, as you say, only the first step. It is though, the first step.

I suppose I agree with this to some extent. However, a "step" program may imply that before the student gets to the second step, he must "complete" the first step. That is not something I necessarily agree with.

I have never coached T-ball or anything under 14U so maybe my perceptions of "imperfect" mechanics are different than other coaches. I mean there are bad mechanics and then there are BAD mechanics.

[Mark H]

Yeah I agree you are learning both at the same time. A seven frame swing will hold you to a certain level of success though regardless of your understanding of all the rest.

[1chapterahead]

I feel you have speculated wrong. I believe he is just trying a different approach... We will see.Jake, once again I was left out of the strategy session... Can you forward the meeting details and any power point presentations used? I promise not to share.;)

[Ursa Major]

Cally Jr. said: "Everyone always wants me to defend the drills and explain them, I don't know that I have seen any of Steve's drills on this forum. Purpose for this? Keep the money coming in. Same thing goes for Epstein drills, I cannot go into great depth about the drills on the forum because of this."Cally, there's an important point buried in here that bears addressing. You seem to suggest that there's some broad, mercantile conspiracy to keep Steve's drill off the site, but in the same breath admit you do the same with Epstein's drills. Steve has asked (at least privately) that people not give away the specific of drills he's developed, and I respect that as much as I respect what you decline to disclose about what Epstein has developed and charges for.

But, this desire to avoid disclosure of drills doesn't mean that it's part of a conspiracty to avoid disclosure of the guru's basic ideas and philosophies -- which Steve E. has expounded upon in hundreds of posted missives and in the free portions of his web site. That's all fair game for all sides to poke at.

You also suggest that the board is dominated by Englishbey adherents who criticize anyone who criticizes him. Well, I think just about all of us who tend to follow his teachings more than most (and all of us in that group are more open to incorporating others' ideas than the Epstein proponents I have seen) only criticize the arguments when they address the motives or some other personal facet of the poster's life rather than going into the merits of what Steve teaches. Please, go find a single post where both (a) someone has carefully taken apart a specific piece of Steve's advice, and (b) someone who you believe is "in the tank" for Steve (who would that be -- MarkH, Chris O, me, Jake, who?) has taken an unfair or personal attack on that person, say along the line of Chaperahead's comments about Chris O and MarkH. Take your time... I'll wait.

[1chapterahead]

(and all of us in that group are more open to incorporating others' ideas than the Epstein proponents I have seen).Ursa, I would challenge you to ask the HI guys if this is true. In fact, weren't most of the HI guys in your same camp years ago?

[CoachB25]

Ursa, I would challenge you to ask the HI guys if this is true. In fact, weren't most of the HI guys in your same camp years ago?


While I have often been attacked, I only "attack" when I know someone is misrepresenting what SE says. I no longer know who the "HI" guys are and don't care. I'm talking hitting. BTW, if you took a lot of what we discuss on SE's site you can integrate those concepts with several "techniques." JMHO!

[1chapterahead]

While I have often been attacked, I only "attack" when I know someone is misrepresenting what SE says. I no longer know who the "HI" guys are and don't care. I'm talking hitting. BTW, if you took a lot of what we discuss on SE's site you can integrate those concepts with several "techniques." JMHO!
I don't doubt this for one second. As I mentioned to SE in a recent PM, I could have easily been a future customer of his, but his guys have really turned me off to the idea. Just speaking from the heart of a dad looking to help his son. I need material that will help me help him.

This may be my last post for a while. I'm sure many of you are :applaud: Can't say I blame you either. Actually sick of hearing myself. Good luck all, and thanks.

[Jake Patterson]

Ursa, I would challenge you to ask the HI guys if this is true. In fact, weren't most of the HI guys in your same camp years ago?They saw things differently - hence the different direction.

[omg]

I don't know anything about boxing so I cannot relate.

Neither do I. I'm saying batting, like boxing, is an instinctive battle between 2 opponents which requires split second reactions. I play "devil's advocate" regarding mechanics and drills because,as I said, in my experience, emphasis on training and strategy is way more effective than mechanics and drills. I'm waiting to be enlightened with mechanical principles and substantive drills. My admittedly cynical take is that jr. is hitting not because of all of the analysis and drills but rather despite them: jr. hits well because of mama's genes.

[Mark H]

Ursa, I would challenge you to ask the HI guys if this is true. In fact, weren't most of the HI guys in your same camp years ago?


I thought maybe you and HYP had been influenced that way. The HI guys are principally Tom Guerry, an MD with no apparent students and Richard, a bar owner with one or two apparent students. Both have been kicked off of more internet sites than I can quickly count. To paraphrase a movie, I don't know what is wrong with them but it is not a small thing. All IMO of course. I wouldn't reference them for credibility. Tom was never in anyone's camp. He has always claimed to be able to mix several instructors and come up with "the MLB pattern" as he explains what the various gurus REALLY mean when they say X and Tom says Y. He's the guru of all gurus apparently. Just ask him. Richard was on Steve's site till he got his feeling hurt when Steve disagreed with his analysis of a kid's swing on the site. Richard then found "active hands, second engines" and the like. Plainly loopy IMO. I encourage you to search on here and eteamz under the many screen names Richard has used and see how you feel about his odd ideas and his vile crude references to young ladies I won't print on this board. PM me if you like.

[HYP]

I thought maybe you and HYP had been influenced that way. The HI guys are principally Tom Guerry, an MD with no apparent students and Richard, a bar owner with one or two apparent students. Both have been kicked off of more internet sites than I can quickly count. To paraphrase a movie, I don't know what is wrong with them but it is not a small thing. All IMO of course. I wouldn't reference them for credibility. Tom was never in anyone's camp. He has always claimed to be able to mix several instructors and come up with "the MLB pattern" as he explains what the various gurus REALLY mean when they say X and Tom says Y. He's the guru of all gurus apparently. Just ask him. Richard was on Steve's site till he got his feeling hurt when Steve disagreed with his analysis of a kid's swing on the site. Richard then found "active hands, second engines" and the like. Plainly loopy IMO. I encourage you to search on here and eteamz under the many screen names Richard has used and see how you feel about his odd ideas and his vile crude references to young ladies I won't print on this board. PM me if you like.
Yes I have been influenced by the HI guys, as well as many other instructors and players. I don't feel that it is necessary to attack them personally. Honestly I could care less if someone is a nice guy or not and if someone from HI says something that I don't agree with I question them as well. Again, I am in no ones camp. I am an Epstein instructor but that is just a means to an end. If he was to start saying something I don't agree with then I would question him as well. But so far I have liked using his system.

HYP