12yo clips

[Skipper_George]

I have put clips of my son in the past and have learned allot from your suggestions and the DVD's I have purchased.

Any constructive criticisms are welcome:

Normal/30fps

http://s345.photobucket.com/albums/p390/skipper_george/?action=view&current=11-26-tee_work.flv

Slo Mo

http://s345.photobucket.com/albums/p390/skipper_george/?action=view&current=11-26-tee_work_slo.flv

[Mark H]

Be good to see it frame by frame but I think I see hip slide for one thing. Put him in a vertically loaded, think dead lift, position. Rotate from there holding that tilt and lets see what happens.

[Chris O'Leary]

I have put clips of my son in the past and have learned allot from your suggestions and the DVD's I have purchased.

Any constructive criticisms are welcome:

Normal/30fps

http://s345.photobucket.com/albums/p390/skipper_george/?action=view&current=11-26-tee_work.flv

Slo Mo

http://s345.photobucket.com/albums/p390/skipper_george/?action=view&current=11-26-tee_work_slo.flv

His back elbow drops a few frames early, which probably lengthens his swing.

Also, that bat looks HUGE.

[Knights Baseball]

What grip does he use when htting? Knocking knuckles lined up?

[Deemax]

Your son has a pretty good swing. Keep building his confidence and strength.

[Mark H]

It wouldn't take much to be good IMO. Good starting point. An athletic posture starting point into better more powerful rotation would be huge IMO and likely cure the hip slide (defined as front hip joint moving forward during shoulder rotation).

I sure hate not being able to frame by frame a swing.

[Skipper_George]

His back elbow drops a few frames early, which probably lengthens his swing.

Also, that bat looks HUGE.

We are working on keeping the elbow up longer.
The bat is 30" -10

[Skipper_George]

What grip does he use when htting? Knocking knuckles lined up?

He likes is top knocker knuckles line up in-between the bottom knockers and big knockles.

[Skipper_George]

Your son has a pretty good swing. Keep building his confidence and strength.

Thanks and I will.

[Skipper_George]

It wouldn't take much to be good IMO. Good starting point. An athletic posture starting point into better more powerful rotation would be huge IMO and likely cure the hip slide (defined as front hip joint moving forward during shoulder rotation).

I sure hate not being able to frame by frame a swing.

Thanks.
mmm...I thought he had a fairly good athletic posture.
Please post a clip to help clairfiy what you concider "An athletic posture ".

[Bryton]

Here are a couple of Pujols. He has a great athletics posture and set up.

[Ursa Major]

I agree with the comments so far. I too had noticed the knuckles situation -- it looks like the top hand is wrapped a bit more around the bat than is usual, which seems to bind him a little. Hard to tell if he instinctively corrects it as he goes through the swing.

My additional two cents, as shown by these two frames from just before and just at contact:
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/Hitter081216.jpg
First, the front foot seems to open too soon, so he's not getting much oomph from his forward drive. (See the circle in the left frame.)

Second, just before contact he pushes his hands away from his chest and his shoulders stop rotating. This is a very, very common failing in the 10 - 13 y/o age groups. It costs him at least a frame in getting the bat into the hitting zone (and robs a little power), which will kill him against really fast pitching. It's easy to detect this in this swing, because he's hitting the ball up the middle even though the tee is well ahead of his front hip.

Again, everything is connected ... well, sorta. If the front foot stays closed, the back shoulder is likely to be driven around toward the ball more aggressively, the hands can stay back with the back shoulder, and the bathead will whip around more efficiently and quickly.

But, even without adjusting the front foot, he can work on keeping the hands back toward his shoulder longer. One easy trick is to just move the tee back about nine inches closer to the plate and see if he can still get around on the ball and drive it up the middle. After he hits a couple week grounders to the right, he'll feel what he needs to do -- but, make sure he's not just punching at or slicing across the ball, but in fact is continuing his shoulder rotation..

[Skipper_George]

I agree with the comments so far. I too had noticed the knuckles situation -- it looks like the top hand is wrapped a bit more around the bat than is usual, which seems to bind him a little. Hard to tell if he instinctively corrects it as he goes through the swing.

My additional two cents, as shown by these two frames from just before and just at contact:
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/Hitter081216.jpg
First, the front foot seems to open too soon, so he's not getting much oomph from his forward drive. (See the circle in the left frame.)

Second, just before contact he pushes his hands away from his chest and his shoulders stop rotating. This is a very, very common failing in the 10 - 13 y/o age groups. It costs him at least a frame in getting the bat into the hitting zone (and robs a little power), which will kill him against really fast pitching. It's easy to detect this in this swing, because he's hitting the ball up the middle even though the tee is well ahead of his front hip.

Again, everything is connected ... well, sorta. If the front foot stays closed, the back shoulder is likely to be driven around toward the ball more aggressively, the hands can stay back with the back shoulder, and the bathead will whip around more efficiently and quickly.

But, even without adjusting the front foot, he can work on keeping the hands back toward his shoulder longer. One easy trick is to just move the tee back about nine inches closer to the plate and see if he can still get around on the ball and drive it up the middle. After he hits a couple week grounders to the right, he'll feel what he needs to do -- but, make sure he's not just punching at or slicing across the ball, but in fact is continuing his shoulder rotation..


Thanks. We have been working on keeping the foot closed and will continue to do so.
It seems that his shoulders will be square to the pitcher but the bat is square to the 2nd baseman. I'm trying to figure out what is causing this, he very rarley drives the ball to left field.

[Mark H]

The clips I have of Mac show a little more tilt at launch than that but he is a little more upright than most. George I'd suggest posting the clip on Steve's site for more comment.

[SLBaseballDad]

Thanks. We have been working on keeping the foot closed and will continue to do so.
It seems that his shoulders will be square to the pitcher but the bat is square to the 2nd baseman. I'm trying to figure out what is causing this, he very rarley drives the ball to left field.

I experienced the same with my son. He hit mostly spinning pop ups to right or grounders to the right side with an occasional shot somewhere else. I think it was URSA that noticed that his power was spent by the time the bat got to POC. We started focusing on closing the front foot too. While that helped, the biggest difference came when we visited an instructor that suggested a drill he called the "impact drill". Basically, you swing at full speed trying to stop the bat at POC while thinking up the middle. In otherwords, square the bat up on the ball to hit it up the middle. It helped him get the feel for getting the bat around before the energy was gone. His sequencing was off.

BTW, he's Epstein trained by me.

[Mark H]

Those are called stop swings by Englishbey and they ARE a very useful tool.

[kylebee]

SLBaseballDad,

Your son's front foot will always want to open up - it's a natural response. Blocking it completely is tough, so progressive incremental change is what you should be looking for.

[SLBaseballDad]

SLBaseballDad,

Your son's front foot will always want to open up - it's a natural response. Blocking it completely is tough, so progressive incremental change is what you should be looking for.

Agreed, but his foot was landing all the way open.

[kylebee]

Agreed, but his foot was landing all the way open.

Right, this is a problem. Just saying that it can take awhile to fix this problem, IME.

[Ursa Major]

An alternative to the stop drill is Mankin's "heavy bag" drill. You hang a boxer heavy bag from a tree (or make your own with a canvas duffel bag and sawdust or the like), and have him swing into it, with the front of the bag being placed where you want the point of contact to be. Unlike hitting a ball off a tee, the bat is stopped at the instant of contact, so you can see if he's turned the bathead in time or -- as your son's doing here -- instead has pushed the hands toward the pitcher.

A similar drill is what I learned as the "tire drill". Attach an old tire to a chain link fence so that the top of it comes to the top of the strike zone. Have the kid stand perpendicular to the fence with his front foot positioned so that he'll stride so that the side of that foot will just graze the base of the fence. Now have him swing. In an ideal swing, the bathead and handle will strike each side of the tire simultaneously.

Another occasionally used cue is this: "hit the third base coach's nose with a left-handed karate chop." This has the dual benefit of (a) encouraging complete rotation and the tight, late "hook" of the hands needed to take full advantage of the law of conservation of angular momentum, and (b) discouraging premature rolling of the wrists.

[Mark H]

Heavy bag is good to the extent the player or coach knows what he's looking for. Stop swings are self enforcing to a great degree. Hard to stop that bat quickly if you are disconnected, rolling over etc.

[norseman_44]

The bat barrel should remain above the ball/hands until contact. Here it drops below the level of the ball just before contact and while some success can be had he may run into trouble with better fastballs and breaking pitches later on. We refer to that as having a "hole in his swing." Players who do this sometimes put the ball in play with authority, but they also swing and miss alot.

I was never a fan of that high back elbow. I think it jams the bat into the palm of the top hand, makes the grip too tight. I think it contributes to that long swing and bat drag that I'm seeing.

Looks like a strong, athletic kid.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Thanks. We have been working on keeping the foot closed and will continue to do so.
It seems that his shoulders will be square to the pitcher but the bat is square to the 2nd baseman. I'm trying to figure out what is causing this, he very rarley drives the ball to left field.

Agree with working more on the front foot.

I assumed by the placement of the tee that you were working on outside pitches. If that isn't the case then consider moving the tee up so that his front foot lands even with the tee.

[callyjr]

BTW, he's Epstein trained by me.

How could this be, he doesn't fit the Epstein mold per the forum :) He is not stuck on the back side, what did you do wrong. There is no way that you could teach him to look like this with the DVD's. Just playing with the PCR guys.

Cally

[Skipper_George]

Agree with working more on the front foot.

I assumed by the placement of the tee that you were working on outside pitches. If that isn't the case then consider moving the tee up so that his front foot lands even with the tee.

Yes, we were working on the middle-outside half of the plate.

[callyjr]

The bat barrel should remain above the ball/hands until contact. Here it drops below the level of the ball just before contact and while some success can be had he may run into trouble with better fastballs and breaking pitches later on. We refer to that as having a "hole in his swing." Players who do this sometimes put the ball in play with authority, but they also swing and miss alot.

I was never a fan of that high back elbow. I think it jams the bat into the palm of the top hand, makes the grip too tight. I think it contributes to that long swing and bat drag that I'm seeing.

Looks like a strong, athletic kid.

you mean like this? not the best advise IMO. the longer you get the barrel in the path of the ball the more successful a hitter will be. Your idea is to get the barrel in the path of the ball at the last second making the need for a perfectly timed swing. having the barrel below the hands puts the barrel on the path of the ball for a good 2 to 3 feet allowing for lots of room for error and a better hitter for average and power.

http://hitrotational.com/Mike's%20Stuff/MLB/bonds_approach.jpg

http://hitrotational.com/Mike's%20Stuff/Diagrams/swing%20plane.jpg

[SLBaseballDad]

How could this be, he doesn't fit the Epstein mold per the forum :) He is not stuck on the back side, what did you do wrong. There is no way that you could teach him to look like this with the DVD's. Just playing with the PCR guys.

Cally

LOL........we started with Epstein but have moved on to other concepts like weight shift, etc.. It gave him a good base.

[norseman_44]

No, I mean like this. I meant before contact, sorry for not being clear. I was rushed when I was posting.
P.S. I have pictures too funny guy. You can disagree without being disagreeable.

[HYP]

Thanks. We have been working on keeping the foot closed and will continue to do so.
It seems that his shoulders will be square to the pitcher but the bat is square to the 2nd baseman. I'm trying to figure out what is causing this, he very rarley drives the ball to left field.
First off I like his swing. Looks pretty good and I personally don't see the hip slide. What I do see is the lead hip clearing, which is a good thing.

In this post you mentioned that his shoulders seem to be square to the pitcher while the bat is more squared to the 2nd baseman. I read the posts in front of this one saying rotate the shoulders harder. Think about what you just wrote about your sons swing and then think about the comment to rotate the shoulders harder. Does that make sense to you? If you rotate the shoulders harder doesn't it make sense that the bat will be even further behind? Don't tilt and turn.

IMO I would not change much right now. The one thing I would start with is moving the "T" back. Move it until it is about 6" in front of the belly button. Get him use to hitting the ball deep in the zone.

It looks like your son has some natural ability and is athletic. Don't coach it out of him.

Good luck,

HYP

[HYP]

No, I mean like this. I meant before contact, sorry for not being clear. I was rushed when I was posting.
P.S. I have pictures too funny guy. You can disagree without being disagreeable.
Is the picture Cally showed of Bonds before contact?

[HYP]

I experienced the same with my son. He hit mostly spinning pop ups to right or grounders to the right side with an occasional shot somewhere else. I think it was URSA that noticed that his power was spent by the time the bat got to POC. We started focusing on closing the front foot too. While that helped, the biggest difference came when we visited an instructor that suggested a drill he called the "impact drill". Basically, you swing at full speed trying to stop the bat at POC while thinking up the middle. In otherwords, square the bat up on the ball to hit it up the middle. It helped him get the feel for getting the bat around before the energy was gone. His sequencing was off.

BTW, he's Epstein trained by me.
Serious question, Couldn't you move the POC back?

[Mark H]

No, I mean like this. I meant before contact, sorry for not being clear. I was rushed when I was posting.
P.S. I have pictures too funny guy. You can disagree without being disagreeable.

Cally,

I interpret Norseman's thought of the barrel being above the hands as meaning avoiding early uncocking of the wrists/casting.

[Mark H]

First off I like his swing. Looks pretty good and I personally don't see the hip slide. What I do see is the lead hip clearing, which is a good thing.

Looks like the front hip joint moves forward for a frame during the swing. Certainly the front leg and hip joint needs to give a firmer base for rotation. A better starting position in terms of being in an athletic position would likely help.

In this post you mentioned that his shoulders seem to be square to the pitcher while the bat is more squared to the 2nd baseman. I read the posts in front of this one saying rotate the shoulders harder. Think about what you just wrote about your sons swing and then think about the comment to rotate the shoulders harder. Does that make sense to you? If you rotate the shoulders harder doesn't it make sense that the bat will be even further behind? Don't tilt and turn.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis

IMO I would not change much right now. The one thing I would start with is moving the "T" back. Move it until it is about 6" in front of the belly button. Get him use to hitting the ball deep in the zone.

Moving the tee back can be a very good idea. Not changing much right now I can't agree with. Shouldn't take too much to make this swing much quicker.

[HYP]

Looks like the front hip joint moves forward for a frame during the swing. Certainly the front leg and hip joint needs to give a firmer base for rotation. A better starting position in terms of being in an athletic position would likely help.



http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis



Moving the tee back can be a very good idea. Not changing much right now I can't agree with. Shouldn't take too much to make this swing much quicker.
In the first clip he shows of Vernon Wells, does his hips slide? From what you wrote it appears they do.

We see something different in the video. What you see as tilt and turn. I see the hips clearing as the shoulders tilt laterally, while the back elbow moves down and the lead elbow works up aided or caused by the bat being turned around the hands by the forearms.

May I ask who John Sigler is? What has he done and what makes his video analysis better then anyone elses?

IMO if you bend at the waist and turn the torso to generate power, you will drag the bat. You have little to no adjustability. It will work fine for the lower levels but it will not work at higher levels.

As far as moving the "T" back thanks. IMO we probably will think it is a good idea for different reasons. IMO it will force him to tilt, stay back, allow his weight to sit on his back hip and to stay behind the ball not next to it.

Have you ever wondered why the Pros say they hit down on the ball? Could it be that they try to let the ball get deeper then most youth hitters. So they feel that they are hitting down on the ball because they are making contact right after the bat starts its upward plane. Right after the bat has arced rearward. They are not always making contact that deep but that's what they feel. David Wright has also said that he wants to feel like he is hitting the ball out of the catchers mit. That he wants to be able to wait, wait, wait and then boom. That's how he knows his hands are working right.

HYP

[Jake Patterson]

May I ask who John Sigler is? What has he done and what makes his video analysis better then anyone elses?
Hmm... This shows the boundries and limitations of your personal search - not a bad thing. John was/is one of the first gurus who spent the time necessary to understand the swing and use the Internet to learn and teach. There is plenty on the Internet about him. I Yahoo searched "John Sigler, baseball" and got 219,000 hits.

Jake

[Jake Patterson]

Have you ever wondered why the Pros say they hit down on the ball? Yes I do - because the good hitters don't. And I believe most pros and professional instructors and clinicians are starting to see this as video analysis becomes more prevalent. There are few who teach this now and I would avoid those who do.

[HYP]

Hmm... This shows the boundries and limitations of your personal search - not a bad thing. John was/is one of the first gurus who spent the time necessary to understand the swing and use the Internet to learn and teach. There is plenty on the Internet about him. I Yahoo searched "John Sigler, baseball" and got 219,000 hits.

Jake
Hmm, I google searched him and got 2. The rest were about a NRA guy. He was the first to interpret what he saw.

You have know idea how much research I have done and how long I have been at it. Just to let you know where I've been and what I have done, probably haven't been at it as long as some of you or may not have the resume as some of you either.

I have been coaching for 20+ years mostly High School but have coached from T ball through. I have been a private hitting instructor for awhile but it is not yet my full time job. I give lessons to 10 yr olds to college age kids. I have taught at academy baseball programs and have ran different travel ball teams as well.

So do I know everything NO, do I know everyone NO. Do I search out new information yes and will continue to.

HYP

[HYP]

Yes I do - because the good hitters don't. And I believe most pros and professional instructors and clinicians are starting to see this as video analysis becomes more prevalent. There are few who teach this now and I would avoid those who do.
Did you see my explanation as to why they may feel that they are hitting down? If you try to create the upward swing could it be possible that you may drop your hands to get below the ball and be forced to fight getting back up to the ball. Which happens in so many young hitters. I do not teach hitting down on the ball but I do want them to think about keeping their hands above the ball.

If the shoulders tilt and you allow the bat to arc around the hands properly the plane of the bat will be upward after it has reached the bottom of the arc, it is right after this that they are trying to make contact wich gives them the feeling that they are hitting down.

See you take a portion of my quote and try to make it seem as if I teach hitting down on the ball. So I would like to clarify that that is not what I teach.

HYP

[Mark H]

In the first clip he shows of Vernon Wells, does his hips slide? No.


From what you wrote it appears they do. Why would you think that?

We see something different in the video. What you see as tilt and turn. I see the hips clearing as the shoulders tilt laterally, while the back elbow moves down and the lead elbow works up aided or caused by the bat being turned around the hands by the forearms.

Interesting mix of Epstein and Teacherman. Only person I ever saw try to blend those two before was Tom Guerry.

May I ask who John Sigler is? What has he done and what makes his video analysis better then anyone elses?

It's about checking what anyone says about hitting against slow motion video of the best in the world. It can't be about resume because for every credentialed expert who says yes, there is another credentialed expert who says no.

IMO if you bend at the waist and turn the torso to generate power, you will drag the bat.

The two are not related but Tom Guerry and teacherman would agree with you.

You have little to no adjustability. It will work fine for the lower levels but it will not work at higher levels.

Amazing. You and Tom must have been separated at birth.

As far as moving the "T" back thanks. IMO we probably will think it is a good idea for different reasons. IMO it will force him to tilt, stay back, allow his weight to sit on his back hip and to stay behind the ball not next to it.

Weight on the back hip. Hmmm. Pretty tricky to do that for those ML hitters who get up and even off their toe with the back foot. Course if you do a reverse weight shift as Mike teaches that would definitely get you on the back hip.

Have you ever wondered why the Pros say they hit down on the ball? Could it be that they try to let the ball get deeper then most youth hitters. So they feel that they are hitting down on the ball because they are making contact right after the bat starts its upward plane. Right after the bat has arced rearward. They are not always making contact that deep but that's what they feel. David Wright has also said that he wants to feel like he is hitting the ball out of the catchers mit. That he wants to be able to wait, wait, wait and then boom. That's how he knows his hands are working right.

HYP

That's been covered for years. Not new stuff.

[Jake Patterson]

See you take a portion of my quote and try to make it seem as if I teach hitting down on the ball. So I would like to clarify that that is not what I teach.
HYP
Not trying to pick a fight.
I'm glad you don't teach this.

Here's what's left of John's site before MLB got after him http://imageevent.com/siggy;jsessionid=p9b72u6rj2.buffalo_s

It was a great site before MLB got involved. There is still a great deal of info there. It was at one time one of the best baseball site out there.

I must have a different Google search engine....

[callyjr]

No, I mean like this. I meant before contact, sorry for not being clear. I was rushed when I was posting.
P.S. I have pictures too funny guy. You can disagree without being disagreeable.

show me the next frame where the barrel gets below the hands. Please explain your thoughts more if your not teaching barrel to ball without the barrel going below the hands. Are you suggesting Barry is not before contact? Am I not understanding your intent here?

http://hitrotational.com/Mike's%20Stuff/MLB/griffey_approach_499.jpghttp://hitrotational.com/Mike's%20Stuff/MLB/pujols_approach.jpg

[Mark H]

I suspect you two may be arguing semantics.

[callyjr]

I suspect you two may be arguing semantics.


it could be. it sure sounded like he wants the barrel above the hands until contact though, that would be swinging down then right?

[Mark H]

Well if that's truly what he means I would have to agree with you. I suspect he's talking about just before whip rather than at contact.

[callyjr]

Well if that's truly what he means I would have to agree with you. I suspect he's talking about just before whip rather than at contact.

possibly, but this is what he said

The bat barrel should remain above the ball/hands until contact.

[Mark H]

Lots of baseball people have a little trouble moving from cue based analysis and discussion to reality based analysis and discussion. Like the recurring role of the hands discussions for instance.

[1chapterahead]

No.


Why would you think that?



Interesting mix of Epstein and Teacherman. Only person I ever saw try to blend those two before was Tom Guerry.



It's about checking what anyone says about hitting against slow motion video of the best in the world. It can't be about resume because for every credentialed expert who says yes, there is another credentialed expert who says no.



The two are not related but Tom Guerry and teacherman would agree with you.



Amazing. You and Tom must have been separated at birth.



Weight on the back hip. Hmmm. Pretty tricky to do that for those ML hitters who get up and even off their toe with the back foot. Course if you do a reverse weight shift as Mike teaches that would definitely get you on the back hip.



That's been covered for years. Not new stuff.
Mike mentions the need for dynamic balance, blocking of the front side and shifting the weight to the inside of the rear thigh. I take this to be much different than “sit on the back leg” and swing. Which by the way he mentions as a no-no in his video. So, other than just blocking with their front side, is it possible that they are counter-balancing by “trying” to hang weight on the rear? I don’t see this as a reverse weight shift, but rather the use of dynamic balance.

[HYP]

I don't know how to do all of the quote stuff so I'll do my best to answer your questions without making it to complicated.

No.


Why would you think that?

By your explanation of the kid having hip slide. You said his front hip seems to move forward before a good solid block. In the clip of Vernon Wells this appears to be happening as well. His front hip seems to be moving forward with no block. based off what you said. I know what's happening with the hip but because of your earlier explanation I was wondering if you do.


Interesting mix of Epstein and Teacherman. Only person I ever saw try to blend those two before was Tom Guerry.

I know Tom but I'm not Tom. I know little to nothing about golf.



It's about checking what anyone says about hitting against slow motion video of the best in the world. It can't be about resume because for every credentialed expert who says yes, there is another credentialed expert who says no.

Agree about one expert says one thing and another will say something different. So what makes you right?

Like I stated earlier, while I use slow motion video it can not be your only barometer. You can slow anything down enough and draw any conclusion to fit what you're trying to prove.



The two are not related but Tom Guerry and teacherman would agree with you.

Starting to sound a little paranoid.



Amazing. You and Tom must have been separated at birth.

Even more paranoid.



Weight on the back hip. Hmmm. Pretty tricky to do that for those ML hitters who get up and even off their toe with the back foot. Course if you do a reverse weight shift as Mike teaches that would definitely get you on the back hip.

This statement by you tells me one, your very sarcastic or 2, how little you really know.

The weight stays over the rear leg, mostly on the inside of the rear leg but it feels like it is on the rear hip. See I didn't say there is no weight transfer did I? See as the swing is underway my center of mass stays with my rear hip. The rear knee explodes forward, the rear hip explodes forward, pulling the rear toe forward or off the ground. The weight is still over the rear hip but the momentum is into the front leg. Notice I said into not on. The weight stays behind the front foot.

By the way you have already proven that you do not know what Epstein teaches.

See you will attack me about my improper use of center of mass and momentum but I'm not a sceintist. I'm a guy who tries to make explanations easily understood by someone. If I can understand what I just said I think others can.



That's been covered for years. Not new stuff.

Guess you told me

[1chapterahead]

Well said HYP. This is how I understand it too, just wasn't able to articulate it as well.

[mnh999]

I think this "compare everything to slow motion video" stuff has been overplayed a bit. Yes, it is and should remain a big tool when studying and learning the swing. But let's quit using this same response to everything and acting like that should be our only and final tool when when judging drills, teaching cues and swing thoughts.
Anyone who does not also use regular speed video, who ignores thoughts and comments from the pros, who does not get out and "feel" a live swing themselves is just being foolish. Don't limit yourself to just "comparing everything to slow motion video" and you will be better for it.

[Jake Patterson]

I think this "compare everything to slow motion video" stuff has been overplayed a bit. Yes, it is and should remain a big tool when studying and learning the swing. But let's quit using this same response to everything and acting like that should be our only and final tool when when judging drills, teaching cues and swing thoughts.
Anyone who does not also use regular speed video, who ignores thoughts and comments from the pros, who does not get out and "feel" a live swing themselves is just being foolish. Don't limit yourself to just "comparing everything to slow motion video" and you will be better for it.Many here who recommend slo-mo video DO consider what you suggest. All of the above, to include actually swinging a bat and throwing a ball are key aspects of learning how to teach. The problem is - the measure of a good coach is not how well a person played the game it's how well he can teach it.

I would also offer that many pros faulter when trying to teach.

[callyjr]

I think this "compare everything to slow motion video" stuff has been overplayed a bit. Yes, it is and should remain a big tool when studying and learning the swing. But let's quit using this same response to everything and acting like that should be our only and final tool when when judging drills, teaching cues and swing thoughts.
Anyone who does not also use regular speed video, who ignores thoughts and comments from the pros, who does not get out and "feel" a live swing themselves is just being foolish. Don't limit yourself to just "comparing everything to slow motion video" and you will be better for it.

I have seen thousands of swings and have a pretty good eye for a live swing, but I would be kidding myself If I thought I could see everything live.
you cannot see some major swing flaws unless you slow it down. If you cannot see the flaw then you cannot fix. perfect practice cannot be achieved, If you can have a good swing every time and help build muscle memory then why wouldn't you use video.

[mnh999]

I have seen thousands of swings and have a pretty good eye for a live swing, but I would be kidding myself If I thought I could see everything live.
you cannot see some major swing flaws unless you slow it down. If you cannot see the flaw then you cannot fix. perfect practice cannot be achieved.

I don't disagree with you at all. I did not say it's not a valuable and important tool. My point is simply that it is only one of many tools and that it gets overhyped as the "end all" too many times around here.

Yes, it is important to use. Yes, I use it myself a lot. But some people need to get over the idea that slow motion video is ultmate answer to virtually every discussion and every debate. Simply not true, IMO. It does and should matter what the best in the world are also saying and thinking. Slow motion vidoe can also give many people a false view of things at times, IMO.

I'm just saying it's part of the answer, but not the whole/only answer.

[Jake Patterson]

I'm just saying it's part of the answer, but not the whole/only answer.Agreed .

[Mark H]

I don't disagree with you at all. I did not say it's not a valuable and important tool. My point is simply that it is only one of many tools and that it gets overhyped as the "end all" too many times around here.

Yes, it is important to use. Yes, I use it myself a lot. But some people need to get over the idea that slow motion video is ultmate answer to virtually every discussion and every debate. Simply not true, IMO. It does and should matter what the best in the world are also saying and thinking. Slow motion vidoe can also give many people a false view of things at times, IMO.

I'm just saying it's part of the answer, but not the whole/only answer.

While it is, as you say, one of the tools, when I talk about it it's usually as a test, not a tool. Given the wildly varying things credentialed experts teach about the swing, the average dad needs something to figure what's truth, what's tradition and what's horse puckey. Best test, or at least first test, the average dad can apply is comparing what anyone says to slow motion video of the best in the world. This of course is what Mankin tried to do and with some notable success. Obviously your prior training is one thing that limits what you can see in video and this is where tht came from IMO. Another thing that limits what you can learn from video is there are some things that just can't be seen like muscle firing sequences. The idea of course stems from Mike's saying "do we teach what we see?". I promote this concept. Of course we can only see what we can see given the above limitations and our pre-existing paradigms. Still it's the best first line of defense I've found for the average parent trying to figure out what to tell their kid who wants to hit better.

[1chapterahead]

Mark. Where would you rank yourself as a video analysis guy, both on and off of this site?

[Mark H]

The test is meant for average dads to use as protection. Value my input only to the extent it matches up with video of elite hitters.

[1chapterahead]

As long as they match up to your pre-existing paradigms.

You owe a response to this:

The weight stays over the rear leg, mostly on the inside of the rear leg but it feels like it is on the rear hip. See I didn't say there is no weight transfer did I? See as the swing is underway my center of mass stays with my rear hip. The rear knee explodes forward, the rear hip explodes forward, pulling the rear toe forward or off the ground. The weight is still over the rear hip but the momentum is into the front leg. Notice I said into not on. The weight stays behind the front foot.

[HYP]

As long as they match up to your pre-existing paradigms.

You owe a response to this:

The weight stays over the rear leg, mostly on the inside of the rear leg but it feels like it is on the rear hip. See I didn't say there is no weight transfer did I? See as the swing is underway my center of mass stays with my rear hip. The rear knee explodes forward, the rear hip explodes forward, pulling the rear toe forward or off the ground. The weight is still over the rear hip but the momentum is into the front leg. Notice I said into not on. The weight stays behind the front foot.

Thanks been waiting for a response.

[Mark H]

As long as they match up to your pre-existing paradigms.

No that's the point. I'm encouraging everyone to use this to both check others words and to challenge their own existing paradigms. A pet peeve of mine is people who take money to teach kids things about hitting that a cursory glance at MLB hitting video would show to be horse puckey.



The weight stays over the rear leg, mostly on the inside of the rear leg but it feels like it is on the rear hip. See I didn't say there is no weight transfer did I?

Mike says the weight is centered on the inside of the front thigh before rotation and the inside of the back thigh after rotation. If you and HYP disagree with his characterization, good.

See as the swing is underway my center of mass stays with my rear hip.

I would say your center of mass is your center of mass. If you or HYP are trying to discuss momentum we could do that.


The rear knee explodes forward, the rear hip explodes forward, pulling the rear toe forward or off the ground. The weight is still over the rear hip but the momentum is into the front leg. Notice I said into not on. The weight stays behind the front foot.

Well all that explode stuff is not exactly how I'd phrase it but I can live with this paragraph pretty well. I just wish Epstein's tapes and dvd's explained it as well.

[Mark H]

No that's the point. I'm encouraging everyone to use this to both check others words and to challenge their own existing paradigms. A pet peeve of mine is people who take money to teach kids things about hitting that a cursory glance at MLB hitting video would show to be horse puckey.

I should add it was this process that led me away from Epstein's methods. At one time I was a huge booster of Epstein. Using this method broke my old paradigm.

[Mark H]

PM me if you want. I'm genuinely curious.

[HYP]

No that's the point. I'm encouraging everyone to use this to both check others words and to challenge their own existing paradigms. A pet peeve of mine is people who take money to teach kids things about hitting that a cursory glance at MLB hitting video would show to be horse puckey.





Mike says the weight is centered on the inside of the front thigh before rotation and the inside of the back thigh after rotation. If you and HYP disagree with his characterization, good.

Never heard Mike say this and my understanding of Mikes stuff is fairly close to what I described. Mike in his drills uses a no stride with the toe of the front foot up, weight is fairly balanced, slightly forward. As you start your swing the power of the rear knee and hip driving forward is what pulls the rear toe off of the ground. The weight shifts back over the rear leg or hip which is why after the swing is finished the body settles back on to the rear leg.



I would say your center of mass is your center of mass. If you or HYP are trying to discuss momentum we could do that.

I knew you would say something like this because you don't understand what's actually happening. Let me try to re word it. The torso/upperbody stays with the rear hip. Your momentum is into your front foot but it stays behind it not onto it.




Well all that explode stuff is not exactly how I'd phrase it but I can live with this paragraph pretty well. I just wish Epstein's tapes and dvd's explained it as well. Thanks for living with this explanation.His DVDs do if you get out and swing.

Just so you know I'm an Epstein instructor and like Cally I add to his teachings but he does give a very good base to work off of.

You say you stopped using Epstein because of shortcomings but I say it was your shortcomings in the lack of understanding of what he was teaching. I have seen, that by some of your descriptions, you didn't have a good understanding of what he taught.

[Mark H]

How about you also don't stop looking and questioning your beliefs.

[HYP]

How about you also don't stop looking and questioning your beliefs.


I never will and I always have an open mind. I compare to the pros, I talk to as many of them that I can and I listen to what they say! I also get out and swing.

I would suggest you take your own advice!

[Mark H]

I never will and I always have an open mind. I compare to the pros, I talk to as many of them that I can and I listen to what they say! I also get out and swing.

I would suggest you take your own advice!

Absolutely.

[Mark H]

The "Hanson Principle" tells me to question those who hand out free advice via an agenda.

You think Epstein is the man except for some mods you use. I have found Englishbey to be the best I've seen so far. Same same except for the mod part and the fact I studied Epstein and promoted him for years.

[Mark H]

Glad we aren't using guns boys. I'd be shot up. Even so, I'm not the point. I don't have a dvd and a following. Shouldn't you be using video to show that what Epstein teaches really is what elite hitters do rather than attacking me and my motives? :)

[HYP]

Glad we aren't using guns boys. I'd be shot up. Even so, I'm not the point. I don't have a dvd and a following. Shouldn't you be using video to show that what Epstein teaches really is what elite hitters do rather than attacking me and my motives? :)

I havn't said anything about your motives. I have only made comments about things I disagreed with that you wrote.

[1chapterahead]

You think Epstein is the man except for some mods you use. I have found Englishbey to be the best I've seen so far. Same same except for the mod part and the fact I studied Epstein and promoted him for years.Mark, I happen to know there are some who make mods to Steve's material. Instructors will always make modifications, as do hitters. You seem to be the only one missing this, yet you tell me to be open minded and ask questions?

[Kevin G]

Shouldn't you be using video to show that what Epstein teaches really is what elite hitters do rather than attacking me and my motives? :)


Does this mean we'll be seeing some video of S.E.'s methods so we can use your test of comparing it to what the best do?

Uh........ I didn't think so.

[HYP]

I need to know. Mark has the "Hanson Principle" which he pulls out to discredit those who don't "see" things his way. I'm just using his tool in a way that applies it to his motives in tearing one guy down to build another up. I think he's been selling horse pucky.

I hear you. My thing is people can only see what they want to see and only interpret things in way that benefits them. Not to get religous on you but look how many different religions all came from one book.

IMO he needs to open his eyes and mind. He talks as if he has done so much more then everyone else. I say I've been where he is and have continued to move and grow.

HYP

[callyjr]

Does this mean we'll be seeing some video of S.E.'s methods so we can use your test of comparing it to what the best do?

Uh........ I didn't think so.


Its not a 2 way street like that, and thats why its so easy to pick on Epstein.

[Mark H]

Mark, I happen to know there are some who make mods to Steve's material. Instructors will always make modifications, as do hitters. You seem to be the only one missing this, yet you tell me to be open minded and ask questions?

Tell me about these mods.

[Mark H]

Its not a 2 way street like that, and thats why its so easy to pick on Epstein.

I watched Epstein's tape. I guess you can order Steve's stuff.

[1chapterahead]

Tell me about these mods.I'm sure you've been filled in.

[Mark H]

I need to know. Mark has the "Hanson Principle" which he pulls out to discredit those who don't "see" things his way. I'm just using his tool in a way that applies it to his motives in tearing one guy down to build another up. I think he's been selling horse pucky.

Actually I say, compare anything anyone says, INCLUDING ME, to slow motion video of the best in the world. I suggest each parent has to be their own judge. If video of elite hitters goes against my beliefs I'll happily change. So, what's the horse pucky? I'm happy to have Englishbey compared to slow motion video of elite hitters. Why do Epstein guys react like vampires to a cross when I suggest people compare his words, dvds and drills to slow motion video of the best in the world? Shouldn't you guys welcome that?

[Mark H]

I'm sure you've been filled in.

Again, you have me at a disadvantage as I have no idea what you refer to.

[Mark H]

I havn't said anything about your motives. I have only made comments about things I disagreed with that you wrote.

Agreed. That was more chapter.

[callyjr]

Actually I say, compare anything anyone says, INCLUDING ME, to slow motion video of the best in the world. I suggest each parent has to be their own judge. If video of elite hitters goes against my beliefs I'll happily change. So, what's the horse pucky? I'm happy to have Englishbey compared to slow motion video of elite hitters. Why do Epstein guys react like vampires to a cross when I suggest people compare his words, dvds and drills to slow motion video of the best in the world? Shouldn't you guys welcome that?


I support your opinion of video.

[Mark H]

I hear you. My thing is people can only see what they want to see and only interpret things in way that benefits them.

There is always that danger and we all need to challenge ourselves to intellectual honesty. Again, keep in mind, I was an Epstein believer and promoter. So I guess I wanted to see and interpret things that way and yet...here I am now with a different opinion.

IMO he needs to open his eyes and mind.

I'm listening.

He talks as if he has done so much more then everyone else.

My apologies if I gave that impression. Just put me down as a guy saying I don't see elite hitters doing what Epstein teaches.

I say I've been where he is and have continued to move and grow.

HYP

How could that be when I used to agree with your current views?

[Mark H]

I support your opinion of video.

Maybe we can sit down someday and talk and demonstrate and check video.

[HYP]

There is always that danger and we all need to challenge ourselves to intellectual honesty. Again, keep in mind, I was an Epstein believer and promoter. So I guess I wanted to see and interpret things that way and yet...here I am now with a different opinion.

But yet you mis represent Epstein



I'm listening.



My apologies if I gave that impression. Just put me down as a guy saying I don't see elite hitters doing what Epstein teaches.



How could that be when I used to agree with your current views?

Because I use to believe what I've seen you write about and when I realized that it didn't work for me I moved on.

I know what Epsteins teaching does and that is it gets you close to the pattern of a MLB swing. It gives a good foundation. Once that foundation is there. Then I add different technique to this foundation, such as more active hands. See I am a hitting instructor. I don't just say do this and this and you will be a MLB hitter. I try to give them the foundation first and then adjust my lessons to acomodate their abilities and weaknesses. Not evey student has the same abilities. I have found that Epstein, as you have found that Englishbey, has the proper foundation. These conversations really go no where because you will believe what you want to believe and I will beleive what I want to believe.

Stealing from you, with a clear mind "compare what you see to the best players in he game"

Going to bed, good night.

HYP

[Ursa Major]

Chapterahead said: The "Hanson Principle" tells me to question those who hand out free advice via an agenda.What?? After three years of MarkH giving out clear and helpful advice to all comers here at no cost, I'm now to believe that Mark has an agenda??! And so I must be mistaken in thinking that his solid advice and good drills that helped my players.... well, those results were just an illusion? And even if they weren't, I should disregard any further use of them because he had an ulterior purpose? (Was he really William Ayers or Rev. Wright trying to subliminally push a domestic terrorist agenda on us?)

Chapter, what's the obsession with trying to undermine the merits of poster's comments -- posters whose credibility has been established by years of good advice here -- by alleging that they have some mysterious agenda? You are not advancing anyone's learning by doing so.

And Kevin, whoever you are, I think you've got it arse-backwards by trying to resuscitate Epstein by daring the Englishbey supporters to compare what he teaches to "the best in the world". Obviously, what Epstein and Englishbey teach at the core of their hours of videos is accurate and helpful, so comparing the majority of what the teach is pointless. What is helpful is to find those aspects of their teachings that one contends is inconsistent with MLB swings, and isolating those. Mark has established that he knows what he Epstein teaches, and he and Chris O., and J. Booth and many others have pointed out specific portions of what Epstein's teachings that they disagree with. Anyone here could go to Steve's 206 (usually lengthy) posts here or to the numerous videos and posts on the public portion of his web site and get plenty of materials to take a shot at what he teaches. The burden of criticism has to start with the "challengers".

[HYP]

What?? After three years of MarkH giving out clear and helpful advice to all comers here at no cost, I'm now to believe that Mark has an agenda??! And so I must be mistaken in thinking that his solid advice and good drills that helped my players.... well, those results were just an illusion? And even if they weren't, I should disregard any further use of them because he had an ulterior purpose? (Was he really William Ayers or Rev. Wright trying to subliminally push a domestic terrorist agenda on us?)

Chapter, what's the obsession with trying to undermine the merits of poster's comments -- posters whose credibility has been established by years of good advice here -- by alleging that they have some mysterious agenda? You are not advancing anyone's learning by doing so.

And Kevin, whoever you are, I think you've got it arse-backwards by trying to resuscitate Epstein by daring the Englishbey supporters to compare what he teaches to "the best in the world". Obviously, what Epstein and Englishbey teach at the core of their hours of videos is accurate and helpful, so comparing the majority of what the teach is pointless. What is helpful is to find those aspects of their teachings that one contends is inconsistent with MLB swings, and isolating those. Mark has established that he knows what he Epstein teaches, and he and Chris O., and J. Booth and many others have pointed out specific portions of what Epstein's teachings that they disagree with. Anyone here could go to Steve's 206 (usually lengthy) posts here or to the numerous videos and posts on the public portion of his web site and get plenty of materials to take a shot at what he teaches. The burden of criticism has to start with the "challengers".


Ursa Major,

Nice tone. The name is Graylon, not Kevin. I don't have anything backwards because I have no goal to resuscitate anyone or to knock anyone down. Besides IMO Epstein doesn't need resuscitating.

But it's ok for the Englishbey supporter to constantly say "compare to the best in the world" Is the reason you got so upset by this comment is because it won't stand up?

You are right it is pointless and I didn't start the thread. I just jumped in when some posters were butchering his stuff and thought I should help out. See if I was to start telling people, who didn't know who Englishbey was or what the core things he taught were, if I started mis representing his stuff and say it wasn't good. They would probably believe me. That's what was happening here with Epstein.

Mark has not demostrated that he knows what Epstein teaches. That has been clearly brought out. So if I say bend your knees, stick your butt out, bend over at the waist and rotate like crazy and just hang on to the bat. Does that prove that I know what Englishbey teaches?

Those specific portions they pointed out were pointed out wrong. So apperently they didn't fully understand.

Again not challenging anyone. Just telling it how I see it. see I didn't start posting here to defend anyone. I started because of the way Epstein was being misrepresented. I havn't critisized anyone. My years as a sales person and dealing with the public has taught me this, when people try to turn everything into an arguement or challenge, they're scared. Most the time because they have doubts and feel vulnerable.

I don't follow anyone person. I teach what works best for my students. Because I truly have an open mind.

HYP

[JJA]

This was supposed to be about the 12 year old but has now digressed into revisiting old Epstein arguments. I apologize to the original dad here as this has nothing to do with his child.

Mark is doing fine here, but let me just add some history. The merits of Epstein have been debated thoroughly for the last 10 years, here on baseball-fever and elsewhere. The reader can easily search and find the arguments that have been well articulated on both sides. I too originally started with Epstein 9 years ago. I bought his (very expensive at that time) tape series, his book, and his CD when it first came out. I devoured every word of the book and watched the tape and CD a lot. For a short time I even used his drills on my students.

But it was apparent early on there were serious flaws in the way Epstein teaches in the material he provides, irreconciable with respect to the MLB swing. Most serious was/is the excessive lean and emphasis on weight on the back side. Indeed, his web site even today has many, many examples of students with leans in excess of 35 degrees, in some cases greater than 40 degrees which no major leaguers exhibit. Indeed, on his tape he expresses almost glee when saying that when his students back legs start quivering (from supporting so much weight), then he knows that it's time to wrap up the lesson. These are facts, not speculation, not agenda, it's simply what Epstein teaches, or at least when I got his materials 9 years ago. The signature of the classic Epstein student is being on the ball of the foot at contact, not the toe from the lack of weight shift. 95+% of MLBers are on their toe at contact, or off the ground at contact. (Yes, I am aware that he now does have students on his web site on their toe, but surprisingly he has never taken down the videos of numerous students exhibiting this swing flaw.)

Similarly, his written words on counterrotation are simply wrong, as again fewer than 5% countterotate as Epstein describes it (David Wright being one important exception). His description of weathervaning is also incorrect. There is no purpose in rehashing these arguments, one can search and find pages and pages and pages on them. I wanted to emphasize that these aren't new arguments, this isn't "Epstein bashing", these are well-reasoned arguments based on the video on his web site, words from his book, and statements made on his DVD and CD.

It is important to note that none of the Epstein instructors in the past (Booth and Cally Jr) have disputed the merits of these arguments. What they have said is that they have found ways around these problems by adding (unspecified) drills. Indeed, in the case of Cally Jr the results have been outstanding, my opinion. But this inside knowledge doesn't help the parent who buys what Epstein sells. If you do what Epstein says in his book, DVD and CD, you really will get an uppercutting, back foot hitting player as many posted videos here and other places have demonstrated repeatedly.

For me personally, when I did what he said to do, the results from my students mimicked what I saw on his web site: uppercutters with a heavy backward lean, not at all MLB like. If I was smarter, maybe I could have figured out what Booth and Cally figured out to get rid of these problems. Fortunately there are other methods out there that work as described, not requiring the parent to figure out how to fix what they spent hundreds of dollars on. From what I have seen here on BBF I would have no problem sending a kid to Cally Jr, but I cannot recommend Epstein's materials to anyone. Spend your money elsewhere, there are a lot better places to spend it.

-JJA

[callyjr]

I don't follow anyone person. I teach what works best for my students. Because I truly have an open mind.

HYP


your not an Epstein instructor? Hit Your Potential? Its funny I sae a website recently that Hit Your Potential(HYP) was the theme. Guy lived in Auburn Ca also.

[HYP]

your not an Epstein instructor? Hit Your Potential? Its funny I sae a website recently that Hit Your Potential(HYP) was the theme. Guy lived in Auburn Ca also.
Yes I am an Epstein Certified Instructor. Check his website, if you need proof. yes it is Hit Your Potential and it is in dire need of upgrading. I know it says I strictly follow the Epstein system if that is what you are getting at and I do at the beggining of our lessons but like you I have expanded on my teaching. I do not advertise, the site was more for the parents of my players to look at and an email. I havn't been working with many students lately because of some health issues, I have only worked with the students that have been with me for awhle. I do live in Auburn, CA.

This is probably better for the pm if you would like to continue.

HYP

[HYP]

This was supposed to be about the 12 year old but has now digressed into revisiting old Epstein arguments. I apologize to the original dad here as this has nothing to do with his child.

Mark is doing fine here, but let me just add some history. The merits of Epstein have been debated thoroughly for the last 10 years, here on baseball-fever and elsewhere. The reader can easily search and find the arguments that have been well articulated on both sides. I too originally started with Epstein 9 years ago. I bought his (very expensive at that time) tape series, his book, and his CD when it first came out. I devoured every word of the book and watched the tape and CD a lot. For a short time I even used his drills on my students.

But it was apparent early on there were serious flaws in the way Epstein teaches in the material he provides, irreconciable with respect to the MLB swing. Most serious was/is the excessive lean and emphasis on weight on the back side. Indeed, his web site even today has many, many examples of students with leans in excess of 35 degrees, in some cases greater than 40 degrees which no major leaguers exhibit. Indeed, on his tape he expresses almost glee when saying that when his students back legs start quivering (from supporting so much weight), then he knows that it's time to wrap up the lesson. These are facts, not speculation, not agenda, it's simply what Epstein teaches, or at least when I got his materials 9 years ago. The signature of the classic Epstein student is being on the ball of the foot at contact, not the toe from the lack of weight shift. 95+% of MLBers are on their toe at contact, or off the ground at contact. (Yes, I am aware that he now does have students on his web site on their toe, but surprisingly he has never taken down the videos of numerous students exhibiting this swing flaw.)

I am not trying to rehash conversations that have taken place in the past. I got into the conversation after I felt that Epsteins material was being misrepresented. See the comment about the leg quivering is drill based, not an actual swing. The drills are to learn muscle memory of a position that you will pass through not hold. The leg quivering is because of a position that they hold, on the back leg. But in the context of the swing they pass through it. As far as being on the ball of the foot may or may not happen in the full swing. The lean back again is drill based to force you to stay back, (pull back with your head) as you take a full swing the pull back of the head helps with staying back and stops the upperbody from going forward.

Similarly, his written words on counterrotation are simply wrong, as again fewer than 5% countterotate as Epstein describes it (David Wright being one important exception). His description of weathervaning is also incorrect. There is no purpose in rehashing these arguments, one can search and find pages and pages and pages on them. I wanted to emphasize that these aren't new arguments, this isn't "Epstein bashing", these are well-reasoned arguments based on the video on his web site, words from his book, and statements made on his DVD and CD.

It is important to note that none of the Epstein instructors in the past (Booth and Cally Jr) have disputed the merits of these arguments. What they have said is that they have found ways around these problems by adding (unspecified) drills. Indeed, in the case of Cally Jr the results have been outstanding, my opinion. But this inside knowledge doesn't help the parent who buys what Epstein sells. If you do what Epstein says in his book, DVD and CD, you really will get an uppercutting, back foot hitting player as many posted videos here and other places have demonstrated repeatedly.

For me personally, when I did what he said to do, the results from my students mimicked what I saw on his web site: uppercutters with a heavy backward lean, not at all MLB like. If I was smarter, maybe I could have figured out what Booth and Cally figured out to get rid of these problems. Fortunately there are other methods out there that work as described, not requiring the parent to figure out how to fix what they spent hundreds of dollars on. From what I have seen here on BBF I would have no problem sending a kid to Cally Jr, but I cannot recommend Epstein's materials to anyone. Spend your money elsewhere, there are a lot better places to spend it.

-JJA

These drills are just what they say they're drills. IMO they are not intended to be done all the time without actually hitting, taking full swings. They are intended to ingrain muscle memory to positions that you will pass through as you take a full swing. Once the muscle memory is there then you move to your full swing trying to pass through the positions that you have learned.

Look at the numbers drill. When done in the context of the drill the weight will sit down on the back leg but when you get to this position in a full swing your momentum is carried into your front foot, which pulls you onto your toe or even pulls it off of the ground.

I'll show a clip of Pedroia because IMO he "over exagerates" the lean back and the sit on the rear leg. Although, IMO the best in the game do it to some degree. After this clip I will not talk about Epstein anymore but I would love to still be able to talk hitting, no one system, just what works and doesn't. Because honestly does it matter who came up with it or who teaches it if it's good stuff. If it works that is what I'm concerned with.

http://www.graylon.hittingillustrated.com/pedroia_slo.gif

HYP

[rkbenn]

Epstein needs an upgrade and answer emails when you send them. This is what I like about Yeager he does these things.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Yes I am an Epstein Certified Instructor. Check his website, if you need proof. yes it is Hit Your Potential and it is in dire need of upgrading. I know it says I strictly follow the Epstein system if that is what you are getting at and I do at the beggining of our lessons but like you I have expanded on my teaching. I do not advertise, the site was more for the parents of my players to look at and an email. I havn't been working with many students lately because of some health issues, I have only worked with the students that have been with me for awhle. I do live in Auburn, CA.

This is probably better for the pm if you would like to continue.

HYP

Any relationship to the following?

Hit Your Potential (http://www.amazon.com/Hit-Your-Potential-Steve-Ferroli/dp/1570281831)

[HYP]

Any relationship to the following?

Hit Your Potential (http://www.amazon.com/Hit-Your-Potential-Steve-Ferroli/dp/1570281831)
No, there is no relationship.

[FiveFrameSwing]

How about a relationship to Graylon on Mankin's forum?