Top 100 (Now 200) Pitchers Phase 2 Tier 9 Round 3: Choosing Tier 9

[jjpm74]

These are the candidates for Tier 9. Please note Bobby Mathews is out of sequence alphabetically. Please choose 20.

Chet Brewer
Charlie Buffinton
Lew Burdette
Spud Chandler
Mort Cooper
Larry Corcoran#
Jim Creighton
Mike Cuellar
Candy Cummings#+
Paul Derringer
Dizzy Dismukes
John Donaldson#
Doug Drabek
Roy Face
Chuck Finley
Kid Gleason
Noodles Hahn
Jesse Haines+
Mel Harder
John Hiller
Bill Jackman#
Mark Langston
Max Lanier
Al Leiter
Rube Marquard#+
Bobby Mathews
Dick McBride
Lindy McDaniel
Sam McDowell
Denny McLain#
Dave McNally
Andy Messersmith
Orval Overall
Joe Niekro
Mel Parnell
Camillo Pascual
Ron Perranoski
Jim Perry
Johnny Podres
Double Duty Radcliffe
Kenny Rogers
Eddie Rommell
Charlie Root
Nap Rucker
Babe Ruth
Bob Shawkey
Curt Simmons
Dave Stewart
Mel Stottlemyre
Jack Stivetts
Kent Tekulve
George Uhle
Frank Viola
John Ward#+
John Wetteland
Doc White
Will White
Nip Winters#
Carlos Zambrano

# Denotes preliminary round winner
+ Denotes a member of the NBHoFM

Please vote for 20!

[jjpm74]

Links to preliminary rounds and related projects:


Phase 1 Threads:

Pre-1893 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78102)
1893-1919 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78755)
1920-1945 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79250)
NeL and Pre-NeL (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79656)
1946-1968 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79664)
1969-1985 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80460)
1986-2007 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80845)
Active Pitchers (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81263)

Phase 2 Threads:

Tier 1 Round 1: Pre-1893, 1919 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81666)
Tier 1 Round 2: 1919-1945, NeL/Pre-NeL (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81856)
Tier 1 Round 3: 1946-1985 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82095)
Tier 1 Round 4: 1986-Present (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=1288021)
Tier 1 Round 5: Choosing Tier 1 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82535)
Tier 2 Round 1: Pre-1946 Pitchers (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82737)
Tier 2 Round 2: 1946-Present (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83037)
Tier 2 Round 3: Choosing Tier 2 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83275)
Tier 3 Round 1: Pre-1946 Pitchers (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83375)
Tier 3 Round 2: 1946-Present (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83474)
Tier 3 Round 3: Choosing Tier 3 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83606)
Tier 3 Runoff (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83750)
Tier 4 Round 1: Pre-1946 Pitchers (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83906)
Tier 4 Round 2: 1946-Present (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83997)
Tier 4 Round 3: Choosing Tier 4 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84112)
Tier 4 Runoff (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84219)
Tier 5 Round 1: Pre-1946 Pitchers (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84297)
Tier 5 Round 2: 1946-Present Pitchers (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84399)
Tier 5 Round 3: Choosing Tier 5 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84469)
Tier 5 Runoff (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84555)
Tier 6 Round 1: Top Also Rans (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84646)
Tier 6 Round 2: Choosing Tier 6 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84752)
Tier 6 Runoff (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84833)
Tier 7 Round 1: Choosing Tier 7 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84921)
Tier 8 Round 1: Choosing Tier 8 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85018)
Tier 8 Runoff (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85097)
Tier 9 Round 1: Top Pitchers who were not on a Preliminary Ballot (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85166)
Tier 9 Round 2: Pre-1946, NeL, pre-NeL Who Had Some Support on the Preliminary Ballot (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85288)
Tier 9 Round 3: Post-1945 Pitchers Who Has Some Support on the Preliminary Ballot (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85363)
Tier 9 Round 4: Choosing Tier 9 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85624)


Paul Wendt's Also Ran spin off project:


Phase 1:

1A (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83799)
1B (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83842)
1C (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83841)
1D (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83898)
1E (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84027)
1F (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84152)
1G (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84177)
1H (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84322)
1I (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85238)

Phase 2:

2A (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83908)
2B (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84369)
2C (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84603)
2D (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85266)
2E (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85308)

Phase 3:

3A (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84285)
3B (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84862)


Phase 1 Winners:

Pre-1893:

Tommy Bond
Bob Caruthers
John Clarkson
Larry Corcoran
Candy Cummings
Pud Galvin
Tim Keefe
Sliver King
Bobby Mathews
Jim McCormick
Tony Mullane
Charley Radbourne
Al Spalding
John Ward
Mickey Welch

1894-1919:

Chief Bender
Mordecai Brown
Jack Chesbro
Eddie Ciccotte
Clark Griffith
Addie Joss
Rube Marquard
Christy Mathewson
Joe McGinnity
Kid Nichols
Deacon Phillippe
Eddie Plank
Ed Reulbach
Amos Rusie
Jesse Tannehill
Hippo Vaughn
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh
Vic Willis
Smoky Joe Wood
Cy Young

1920-1945:

Pete Alexander
Tommy Bridges
Wilbur Cooper
Stan Coveleski
Dizzy Dean
Red Faber
Wes Ferrell
Lefty Gomez
Burleigh Grimes
Lefty Grove
Carl Hubbell
Waite Hoyt
Walter Johnson
Ted Lyons
Carl Mays
Herb Pennock
Eppa Rixey
Red Ruffing
Urban Shocker
Dazzy Vance
Bucky Walters

NeL and Pre-NeL:

Ray Brown
Andy Cooper
Leon Day
Martin DiHigo
John Donaldson
Bill Foster
Rube Foster
Bill Jackman
Jose Mendez
Satchel Paige
Cannonball Dick Redding
Bullet Joe Rogan
Hilton Smith
Luis Tiant Sr.
Smoky Joe Williams
Nip Winters

1946-1968:

Jim Bunning
Don Drysdale
Bob Feller
Whitey Ford
Bob Gibson
Sandy Koufax
Bob Lemon
Dutch Leonard
Sal Maglie
Juan Marichal
Denny McLain
Don Newcombe
Hal Newhouser
Billy Pierce
Robin Roberts
Johnny Sain
Warren Spahn
Dizzy Trout
Virgil Trucks
Hoyt Wilhelm
Early Wynn

1969-1985:

Vida Blue
Steve Carlton
Rollie Fingers
Ron Guidry
Catfish Hunter
Fergie Jenkins
Tommy John
Jim Kaat
Jerry Koosman
Mickey Lolich
Sparky Lyle
Tug McGraw
Phil Neikro
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Dan Quisenberry
Rick Reuschel
Tom Seaver
Don Sutton
Luis Tiant Jr.
Wilbur Wood

1986-2007:

Bert Blyleven
Kevin Brown
Roger Clemens
David Cone
Dennis Eckersley
John Franco
Doc Gooden
Goose Gossage
Tom Henke
Orel Hershiser
Jimmy Key
Dennis Martinez
Jack Morris
Nolan Ryan
Brett Saberhagen
Curt Schilling
Lee Smith
Dave Stieb
Bruce Sutter
Frank Tanana
Fernando Valenzuela
David Wells

Active Pitchers:

Tom Glavine
Roy Halladay
Trevor Hoffman
Tim Hudson
Randy Johnson
Greg Maddux
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Roy Oswalt
Andy Pettitte
Mariano Rivera
C.C. Sabathia
Johan Santana
John Smoltz
Billy Wagner

Phase 1 losers who received at least 1 vote in the preliminary rounds:

Pre-1893:

Player Votes Pct

Charlie Buffinton 8 38.10%
Will White 8 38.10%
Jim Creighton 6 28.57%
Kid Gleason 6 28.57%
Dick McBride 4 19.05%
Fred Goldsmith 4 19.05%
Bill Hutchison 4 19.05%
Guy Hecker 3 14.29%
Dave Foutz 3 14.29%
Jim Whitney 3 14.29%
Ed Morris 2 9.52%
George Bradley 2 9.52%
Matt Kilroy 2 9.52%
Elton Chamberlain 1 4.76%
Harry Staley 1 4.76%

1893-1919:

Player Votes Pct

Bill Dinneen 4 20.00%
Sam Leever 4 20.00%
Noodles Hahn 3 15.00%
Red Ames 3 15.00%
Jack Taylor 3 15.00%
Doc White 3 15.00%
Jack Coombs 2 10.00%
Jack Stivetts 2 10.00%
Gus Weyhing 2 10.00%
Nig Cuppy 1 5.00%
Dummy Taylor 1 5.00%

1920-1945:

Player Votes Pct

Babe Adams 5 26.32%
Jack Quinn 5 26.32%
Lon Warneke 5 26.32%
Jesse Haines 4 21.05%
Spud Chandler 4 21.05%
Dolf Luque 4 21.05%
Schoolboy Rowe 4 21.05%
Mel Harder 3 15.79%
Johnny Van Der Meer 3 15.79%
Bullet Joe Bush 2 10.53%
Mort Cooper 2 10.53%
Charlie Root 2 10.53%
George Uhle 2 10.53%
Rube Walberg 2 10.53%
Jesse Barnes 1 5.26%
Paul Derringer 1 5.26%
Dutch Ruether 1 5.26%
Bob Shawkey 1 5.26%
Earl Whitehill 1 5.26%

NeL and Pre-NeL:

Player Votes Pct

Chet Brewer 4 30.77%
Dizzy Dismukes 3 23.08%
Double Duty Radcliff 3 23.08%
Harry Buckner 2 15.38%
Dan McClellan 2 15.38%
Walter Ball 1 7.69%
Dan Bankhead 1 7.69%
Bill Byrd 1 7.69%
Phil Cockrel 1 7.69%
Bob Griffith 1 7.69%
Max Manning 1 7.69%
Leroy Malock 1 7.69%
Frank Wickware 1 7.69%

1946-1968:

Player Votes Pct

Harry Brecheen 4 20.00%
Roy Face 4 20.00%
Milt Pappas 4 20.00%
Jim Perry 4 20.00%
Johnny Podres 4 20.00%
Allie Reynolds 4 20.00%
Preacher Roe 4 20.00%
Curt Simmons 4 20.00%
Lew Burdette 3 15.00%
Don Larsen 3 15.00%
Jim Maloney 3 15.00%
Sam McDowell 3 15.00%
Mel Parnell 3 15.00%
Camillo Pascual 3 15.00%
Vic Raschi 3 15.00%
Mel Stottlemyre 3 15.00%
Mike Garcia 2 10.00%
Larry Jackson 2 10.00%
Ed Lopat 2 10.00%
Lindy McDaniel 2 10.00%
Harvey Haddix 1 5.00%
Clem Labine 1 5.00%
Joe Nuxhall 1 5.00%
Ron Perranoski 1 5.00%

1969-1985:

Player Votes Pct

John Hiller 5 22.73%
Mike Marshall 5 22.73%
J.R. Richard 5 22.73%
Steve Rogers 5 22.73%
Kent Tekulve 3 13.64%
Mike Cuellar 2 9.09%
Ken Holtzman 2 9.09%
Mario Soto 2 9.09%
Doyle Alexander 1 4.55%
Doc Ellis 1 4.55%
Willie Hernandez 1 4.55%
Joe Niekro 1 4.55%
Jerry Reuss 1 4.55%

1986-2007:

Player Votes Pct

Kevin Appier 5 25.00%
Dave Stewart 5 25.00%
Jose Rijo 4 20.00%
John Wetteland 4 20.00%
Chuck Finley 3 15.00%
Andy Messersmith 3 15.00%
Randy Myers 3 15.00%
Bob Welch 3 15.00%
Robb Nen 2 10.00%
Jesse Orosco 2 10.00%
Jeff Reardon 2 10.00%
Frank Voila 2 10.00%
Tom Browning 1 5.00%
Doug Drabek 1 5.00%
Roberto Hernandez 1 5.00%
Charlie Hough 1 5.00%
Mark Langston 1 5.00%
Al Leiter 1 5.00%
Ramon Martinez 1 5.00%
Rick Sutcliffe 1 5.00%

Active Pitchers:

Player Votes Pct

Jamie Moyer 11 37.93%
Carlos Zambrano 7 24.14%
Kenny Rogers 6 20.69%
Hideo Nomo 4 13.79%
Troy Percival 4 13.79%
Chris Carpenter 2 6.90%
Bartolo Colon 2 6.90%
Mark Buehrle 1 3.45%
Derek Lowe 1 3.45%
Jason Schmidt 1 3.45%
Tim Wakefield 1 3.45%



Pitchers who earned a minimum of 20% of the phase 1 vote:



Babe Adams
Kevin Appier
Harry Brecheen
Chet Brewer
Charlie Buffinton
Spud Chandler
Jim Creighton
Bill Dinneen
Dizzy Dismukes
Roy Face
Kid Gleason
Jesse Haines
John Hiller
Sam Leever
Dolf Luque
Mike Marshall
Jamie Moyer
Milt Pappas
Jim Perry
Johnny Podres
Jack Quinn
Double Duty Radcliffe
Allie Reynolds
Kenny Rogers
J.R. Richard
Jose Rijo
Preacher Roe
Steve Rogers
Schoolboy Rowe
Curt Simmons
Dave Stewart
Lon Warneke
John Wetteland
Will White
Carlos Zambrano



Pitchers who appeared on Phase 1 ballots but did not receive any votes:


Pre-1893:

Mark Baldwin
Charlie Getzein
Ad Gumbert
Jack Lynch
Toad Ramsey
Adonis Terry
Stump Weidman
George Zettlein

1893-1919:

Bill Donovan
Claude Hendrix
Brickyard Kennedy
Earl Moore
George Mullin
Al Orth
Jeff Pfeffer
Jack Powell
Slim Salee
Hookse Wiltse

1920-1946:

Johnny Allen
Elden Auker
Guy Bush
Hooks Dauss
Bill Doak
Freddie Fitzsimmons
Larry French
Sad Sam Jones
Bill Lee
Red Lucas
Firpo Marberry
Art Nehf
Claude Passeau
Rip Sewell

NeL/Pre-NeL:

Dave Barnhill
William Bell Sr.
Eugene Bemer
Dave Brown
Plunk Drake
Rats Henderson
Bill Holland
Slim Jones
Scrip Lee
Verdel Mathis
Webster McDonald
Terris McDuffy
Henry McHenry
Diomedes Olivo
Andrew Porter
Harry Salmon
Gene Smith
George Stovey
Ted Trent
Stringbean Williams
Laymon Yokely

1946-1968:

Ted Abernathy
Jack Aker
Ewell Blackwell
Bob Buhl
Murry Dickson
Bob Friend
Fred Gladding
Mudcat Grant
Jim Konstanty
Vern Law
Frank Linzy
Don McMahon
Stu Miller
Bobo Newsom
Claude Osteen
Juan Pizarro
Bobby Shantz

1969-1985:

Jack Billingham
Jim Brewer
Mike Caldwell
Bill Campbell
Clay Carroll
Larry Dierker
John Denny
Bob Forsch
Woodie Fryman
Gene Garber
Dave Giusti
Burt Hooton
Dennis Leonard
Greg Minton
Rick Rhoden
Ray Sadecki
Paul Splitorff
Bob Stanley
Mike Torrez
John Tudor
Rick Wise

1986-2007:

Rick Aguilera
Sid Fernandez
Doug Jones
Dan Plesac
Todd Worrell

Active Pitchers:

Armano Benitez
Kelvim Escobar
Shawn Estes
John Garland
Freddy Garcia
Tom Gordon
Eddie Guardado
Mike Hampton
Jason Isringhausen
Todd Jones
John Lieber
Jose Mesa
Kevin Millwood
Matt Morris
Mark Mulder
Russ Ortiz
Chan Ho Park
Mike Timlin
Dave Weathers


Pitchers who have appeared on a Progressive HOF ballot that did not appear on a Phase 1 Ballot:




Pitcher Ballot Year No. Yrs. on Ballot Votes High Pct.

Jim Bagby (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&pid=462&bid=1031) 1928 0 0 0.00%
Rube Benton (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&pid=951&bid=968) 1930
Ted Breitenstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Breitenstein) 1906 1 0 0.00%
Asa Brainard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asa_Brainard) 1920 VC 1 0 0.00%
Ray Caldwell (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1198&pid=2002) 1926 2 1 4.00%
Howie Camnitz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howie_Camnitz) 1920 1 0 0.00%
Kid Carsey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kid_Carsey) 1906 1 0 0.00%
Larry Cheney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Cheney) 1924 1 0 0.00%
Doc Crandall (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&pid=2974&bid=990) 1923 1 0 0.00%
Bert Cunningham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bert_Cunningham) 1906 1 0 0.00%
Red Donahue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Donahue) 1911 1 0 0.00%
Frank Dwyer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Dwyer) 1904 2 1 4.00%
Bob Ewing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Ewing) 1917 1 0 0.00%
Cy Falkenberg (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1711&pid=4258) 1922 1 0 0.00%
Cherokee Fisher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee_Fisher) 1920 VC 1 0 0.00%
Ray Fisher (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1498&pid=4457) 1925 2 1 4.17%
Russ Ford (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1758&pid=4589) 1920 2 1 4.17%
Chick Fraser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_Fraser) 1914 1 0 0.00%
Pink Hawley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_Hawley) 1906 1 0 0.00%
Harry Howell (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1048&pid=6601) 1915 1 0 0.00%
Tom Hughes (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1795&pid=6692) 1918 1 0 0.00%
Frank Killen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Killen) 1905 1 0 0.00%
Left Leifield (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=898&pid=8128) 1925 1 0 0.00%
Sadie McMahon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadie_McMahon) 1902 1 0 0.00%
Jouett Meekin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jouett_Meekin) 1905 1 0 0.00%
Win Mercer (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=402&pid=9535) 1907 1 0 0.00%
Orval Overall (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=914&pid=10775) 1919 2 1 4.17%
Bill Rhines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Rhines) 1904 1 0 0.00%
Nap Rucker (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=927&pid=12303) 1921 1 0 0.00%
Reb Russell (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1791&pid=12347) 1928 2 2 7.41%
Jim Scott (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1695&pid=12736) 1922 1 0 0.00%
Elmer Smith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Smith_(19th_century_outfielder)) 1906 1 0 0.00%
Frank Smith (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1698&pid=13223) 1920 1 0 0.00%
Tully Sparks (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/ballplayers/player.php?name=Tully_Sparks_1874) 1915 1 0 0.00%
Ed Stein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Stein) 1903 1 0 0.00%
Willie Sudhoff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Sudhoff) 1911 1 0 0.00%
Jeff Tesreau (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=993&pid=14079) 1923 2 1 3.85%
Fred Toney (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=977&pid=14274) 1928 1 0 0.00%
Lefty Tyler (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=881&pid=14425) 1926 1 0 0.00%

Player G IP Win-Loss Pct ERA ERA+ WHIP

Jim Bagby 315 1821.7 127 88 .591 3.11 109 1.286
Rube Benton 437 2517.3 150 144 .510 3.09 101 1.265
Ted Breitenstein 379 2964.3 160 170 .485 4.04 109 1.449
Asa Brainard 84 698.7 24 53 .312 4.84 74 1.696
Ray Caldwell 343 2242.0 133 120 .526 3.22 99 1.261
Howie Camnitz 326 2085.3 133 106 .556 2.75 107 1.203
Kid Carsey 256 2222.0 116 138 .457 4.95 85 1.609
Larry Cheney 313 1881.3 116 100 .537 2.70 109 1.293
Doc Crandall 302 1546.7 102 62 .622 2.92 104 1.239
Bert Cunningham 341 2726.7 142 167 .460 4.22 91 1.514
Red Donahue 367 2966.3 164 175 .484 3.61 96 1.370
Frank Dwyer 318 2810.0 176 152 .537 3.85 115 1.447
Bob Ewing 291 2301.0 124 118 .512 2.49 116 1.178
Cy Falkenberg 330 2275.0 130 123 .514 2.68 106 1.222
Cherokee Fisher 165 1319.7 57 84 .404 2.83 107 1.219
Ray Fisher 278 1755.7 100 94 .515 2.82 105 1.223
Russ Ford 199 1487.3 99 71 .582 2.59 124 1.154
Chick Fraser 433 3356.0 175 212 .452 3.68 92 1.428
Pink Hawley 393 3012.7 167 179 .483 3.96 107 1.430
Harry Howell 340 2567.7 131 146 .473 2.74 109 1.212
Tom Hughes 313 2644.0 131 175 .428 3.09 93 1.310
Frank Killen 300 2511.3 164 131 .556 3.78 108 1.414
Lefty Leifield 296 1838.0 124 97 .561 2.47 115 1.212
Sadie McMahon 321 2634.0 173 127 .534 3.51 118 1.394
Jouett Meekin 270 2603.3 153 133 .535 4.07 102 1.494
Win Mercer 298 2470.3 131 164 .444 3.99 106 1.548
Orval Overall 218 1535.3 108 71 .603 2.23 122 1.161
Bill Rhines 223 1900.0 114 103 .525 3.47 114 1.341
Nap Rucker 336 2375.3 134 134 .500 2.42 119 1.175
Reb Russell 242 1291.7 81 59 .579 2.33 121 1.080
Jim Scott 226 1892.0 107 113 .486 2.30 121 1.180
Elmer Smith 149 1210.3 75 57 .568 3.35 113 1.313
Frank Smith 255 2273.0 139 111 .556 2.59 101 1.166
Tully Sparks 313 2335.7 121 136 .471 2.79 104 1.224
Ed Stein 215 1656.0 109 78 .583 3.97 103 1.462
Willie Sudhoff 279 2086.3 103 135 .433 3.56 92 1.338
Jeff Tesreau 247 1679.0 115 72 .615 2.43 114 1.145
Fred Toney 271 2206.0 139 102 .577 2.68 113 1.188
Lefty Tyler 323 2230.0 127 116 .523 2.95 102 1.264

Note: Links to SABR, Baseball Library and Wiki bios are provided
where available.

***Asa Brainard was primarily a pitcher in the late 1860s. Elmer Smith was
primarily a fielder but played several seasons as a pitcher.

Pitchers who just missed the preliminary ballots:




Player Debut Yrs Pct. W L G IP ERA ERA+ WHIP

Andy Benes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Benes) 1989 14 .527 155 139 403 2505.3 3.97 104 1.312
Tiny Bonham (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1127&pid=1282) 1940 10 .589 103 72 193 1551.0 3.06 120 1.153
Al Brazle (http://www.baseballinwartime.com/player_biographies/brazle_al.htm) 1943 10 .602 97 64 441 1376.7 3.31 120 1.365
Danny Darwin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Darwin) 1978 21 .484 171 182 371 3016.7 3.84 106 1.268
Frank Dwyer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Dwyer) 1888 12 .537 176 152 365 2810.0 3.85 115 1.447
Carl Erskine (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1188&pid=4148) 1948 12 .610 122 78 335 1718.7 4.00 101 1.328
Bob Ewing (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=973&pid=4223) 1902 11 .512 291 124 118 2301.0 2.49 116 1.178
Ray Fisher (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1498&pid=4457) 1910 10 .515 100 94 278 1755.7 2.82 105 1.223
Russ Ford (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1758&pid=4589) 1909 7 .582 99 71 199 1487.3 2.59 124 1.154
Chick Fraser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_Fraser) 1896 14 .452 175 212 389 3556.0 3.68 92 1.428
Don Gullett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Gullett) 1970 9 .686 109 50 266 1390.0 3.11 113 1.227
Larry Gura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Gura) 1970 16 .565 126 97 403 2047.0 3.97 106 1.280
Tex Hughson (http://www.baseballinwartime.com/player_biographies/hughson_tex.htm) 1941 8 .640 96 54 225 1375.7 2.94 125 1.194
Ed Killian (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1732&pid=7499) 1903 8 .567 102 78 180 1598.3 2.38 109 1.217
Ray Kremer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Kremer) 1924 10 .627 143 85 247 1954.7 3.76 113 1.326
Max Lanier (http://www.baseballinwartime.com/player_biographies/lanier_max.htm) 1938 14 .568 108 82 204 1619.3 3.01 125 1.297
Lefty Leifield (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=898&pid=8128) 1905 12 .561 124 97 296 1838.0 2.47 115 1.212
Carl Lundgren (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Lundgren) 1902 8 .623 91 55 179 1322.0 2.42 112 1.214
Jon Matlack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Matlack) 1971 13 .498 125 126 361 2363.0 3.18 114 1.233
Rudy May (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_May) 1965 16 .494 152 156 535 2622.0 3.46 102 1.248
Scott McGregor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_McGregor_(baseball)) 1976 13 .561 138 108 356 2140.7 3.99 98 1.291
Dave McNally (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_McNally) 1962 14 .607 184 119 424 2730.0 3.24 106 1.214
Lee Meadows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Meadows) 1915 15 .511 188 180 490 3160.7 3.37 106 1.340
George McQuillan (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=942&pid=9428) 1907 10 .489 85 89 173 1576.3 2.38 113 1.131
Gary Nolan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Nolan_(baseball)) 1967 10 .611 110 70 250 1674.7 3.08 117 1.145
Orval Overall (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=914&pid=10775) 1905 7 .603 108 71 218 1535.3 2.23 122 1.161
Monte Pearson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Pearson) 1932 10 .621 100 61 191 1429.7 4.00 111 1.491
Jake Peavy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_Peavy) 2002 7 .581 86 62 199 1261.0 3.25 121 1.180
Jack Pfeister (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=915&pid=11173) 1903 8 .617 71 44 149 1067.3 2.02 127 1.089
Eddie Rommell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Rommel) 1920 13 .590 171 119 500 2556.3 3.54 121 1.351
Nap Rucker (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=927&pid=12303) 1907 10 .500 134 134 272 2375.3 2.42 119 1.175
Reb Russell (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1791&pid=12347) 1913 7 .579 81 59 242 1291.7 2.33 121 1.080
Babe Ruth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babe_Ruth) 1914 10 .671 94 46 163 1221.3 2.28 122 1.159
Jim Scott (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1695&pid=12736) 1909 9 .486 107 113 226 1892.0 2.30 121 1.180
Mike Scott (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Scott_(baseball)) 1979 13 .534 124 108 347 2068.7 3.54 100 1.201
Jeff Tesreau (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=993&pid=14079) 1912 7 .615 115 72 206 1679.0 2.43 114 1.145
Fred Toney (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&pid=14274&bid=977) 1911 12 .577 139 102 271 2206.0 2.69 113 1.188
Jake Weimer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_Weimer) 1903 7 .584 97 69 191 1472.7 2.23 125 1.168
Tom Zachary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Zachary) 1918 19 .493 186 191 533 3126.3 3.73 106 1.437

Note: Links to player bios at SABR (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=l&m=59), Baseball in Wartime, (http://www.baseballinwartime.com/player_biographies/player_biographies.htm) and Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/)
are provided.


Phase 2 Winners:


Pre-1893, 1893-1919 Tier 1:

Mordecai Brown
John Clarkson
Tim Keefe
Christy Matthewson
Kid Nichols
Eddie Plank
Amos Rusie
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh
Cy Young

1920-1945, Pre NeL and NeL Tier 1:

Pete Alexander
Dizzy Dean
Lefty Gomez
Lefty Grove
Carl Hubbell
Walter Johnson
Satchel Paige
Bullet Joe Rogan
Dazzy Vance
Smoky Joe Williams

1946-1985 Tier 1:

Steve Carlton
Bob Feller
Bob Gibson
Sandy Koufax
Juan Marichal
Phil Neikro
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Robin Roberts
Tom Seaver
Warren Spahn

1986-Present Tier 1:

Bert Blyleven
Roger Clemens
Dennis Eckersley
Tom Glavine
Randy Johnson
Greg Maddux
Pedro Martinez
Mariano Rivera
Nolan Ryan
John Smoltz

Pre-1946 incl. NeL Tier 2:

Chief Bender
Mordecai Brown
Bob Caruthers
John Clarkson
Stan Coveleski
Dizzy Dean
Wes Ferrell
Pud Galvin
Tim Keefe
Ted Lyons
Carl Mays
Joe McGinnity
Eddie Plank
Charley Radbourne
Bullet Joe Rogan
Red Ruffing
Amos Rusie
Dazzy Vance
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh

1946-Present Tier 2:

Bert Blyleven
Jim Bunning
Don Drysdale
Dennis Eckersley
Whitey Ford
Tom Glavine
Fergie Jenkins
Bob Lemon
Juan Marichal
Mike Mussina
Phil Neikro
Hal Newhouser
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Mariano Rivera
Robin Roberts
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
Don Sutton
Hoyt Wilhelm

Pre-1946 Tier 3:

Bob Caruthers
Eddie Ciccotte
Stan Coveleski
Dizzy Dean
Red Faber
Wes Ferrell
Rube Foster
Pud Galvin
Lefty Gomez
Burleigh Grimes
Addie Joss
Ted Lyons
Carl Mays
Joe McGinnity
Charley Radbourne
Eppa Rixey
Red Ruffing
Amos Rusie
Al Spalding
Rube Waddell
Vic Willis

1946-Present Tier 3:

Kevin Brown
Jim Bunning
Don Drysdale
Dennis Eckersley
Rollie Fingers
Goose Gossage
Ron Guidry
Trevor Hoffman
Catfish Hunter
Tommy John
Jim Kaat
Bob Lemon
Mike Mussina
Don Newcombe
Dan Quisenberry
Johan Santana
Curt Schilling
Don Sutton
Luis Tiant Jr.
Early Wynn

Tier 3 Runoff:

Kevin Brown
Red Faber
Rube Foster
Ron Guidry
Addie Joss
Carl Mays
Red Ruffing

Pre-1946 Tier 4:

Chief Bender
Ray Brown
Bob Caruthers
Eddie Ciccotte
Wilbur Cooper
Martin DiHigo
Red Faber
Bill Foster
Clark Griffith
Burleigh Grimes
Addie Joss
Carl Mays
Jim McCormick
Jose Mendez
Tony Mullane
Eppa Rixey
Red Ruffing
Urban Shocker
Al Spalding
Bucky Walters
Mickey Welch
Vic Willis
Smoky Joe Wood

1946-Present Tier 4:

Vide Blue
Kevin Brown
David Cone
Rollie Fingers
Roy Halladay
Trevor Hoffman
Catfish Hunter
Tommy John
Jim Kaat
Jack Morris
Don Newcombe
Roy Oswalt
Billy Pierce
Dan Quisenberry
Brett Saberhagen
Johan Santana
Lee Smith
Dave Stieb
Bruce Sutter
Luis Tiant Jr.
Billy Wagner

Tier 4 Runoff:

Lefty Gomez
Catfish Hunter
Jose Mendez
Tony Mullane
Dan Quisenberry
Brett Saberhagen
Luis Tiant Jr.
Vic Willis

Pre-1946 Tier 5:

Chief Bender
Ray Brown
Tommy Bridges
Wilbur Cooper
Leon Day
Martin DiHigo
Clark Griffith
Burleigh Grimes
Waite Hoyt
Silver King
Jim McCormick
Herb Pennock
Deacon Phillippe
Cannonball Dick Redding
Urban Shocker
Hilton Smith
Hippo Vaughn
Bucky Walters
Mickey Welch
Smoky Joe Wood

1946-Present Tier 5:

Vida Blue
David Cone
John Franco
Doc Gooden
Roy Halladay
Orel Hershiser
Catfish Hunter
Tommy John
Jim Kaat
Jimmy Key
Jerry Koosman
Jack Morris
Don Newcombe
Roy Oswalt
Andy Pettitte
Brett Saberhagen
Lee Smith
Dave Stieb
Luis Tiant Jr.
Virgil Trucks
Billy Wagner

Tier 5 Runoff:

Vida Blue
John Franco
Clark Griffith
Doc Gooden
Burleigh Grimes
Jimmy Key
Roy Oswalt
Cannonball Dick Redding

Tier 6 Also Rans Winners:

Babe Adams
Kevin Appier
Sam Leever
Dolf Luque
Jamie Moyer
Jack Quinn
Allie Reynolds
Jose Rijo
Lon Warneke

Tier 6 Runoff:

Ray Brown
Sparky Lyle
Dennis Martinez
Jack Quinn
Ed Reulbach
Billy Wagner

Tier 8 Runoff:

Charlie Buffinton
Andy Cooper
Bill Dinneen
John Donaldson
Bill Jackman
Ed Reulbach
J.R. Richard
Preacher Roe
Steve Rogers
Fernando Valenzuela
John Ward
Carlos Zambrano

Top Pitchers who were not on a Preliminary Ballot Tier 9,10:

Max Lanier
Dave McNally
Orval Overall
Eddie Rommell
Nap Rucker
Babe Ruth

Pre-1946 incl. NeL Tier 9:

Mort Cooper
Paul Derringer
Noodles Hahn
Mel Harder
Dick McBride
Charlie Root
Bob Shawkey
Jack Stivetts
George Uhle
Doc White

1946-Present Tier 9:

Lew Burdette
Mike Cuellar
Doug Drabek
Chuck Finley
Mark Langston
Al Leiter
Lindy McDaniel
Sam McDowell
Andy Messersmith
Joe Niekro
Mel Stottlemyre
Kent Tekulve
Frank Viola


Pitchers who received at least 2 votes in the Tier 9 Prelim:


Doyle Alexander (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doyle_Alexander)
Red Ames (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&pid=235&bid=988)
Chris Carpenter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Carpenter)
Jack Coombs (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1768&pid=2813)
Nig Cuppy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nig_Cuppy)
Dave Foutz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Foutz)
Fred Goldsmith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Goldsmith)
Ken Holtzman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Holtzman)
Charlie Hough (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hough)
Larry Jackson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Jackson)
Ed Lopat (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=730&pid=8412)
Jim Maloney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Maloney)
Max Manning (http://www.nlbpa.com/manning__max.html)
Jerry Reuss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Reuss)
Jason Schmidt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Schmidt)
Mario Soto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Soto_(baseball))
Rick Sutcliffe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Sutcliffe)
Johnny Van Der Meer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Vander_Meer) **Back-to-Back no hitter article (http://www.thedeadballera.com/Obits/VanderMeer.Johnny.Obit.html)
Tim Wakefield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Wakefield)
Rube Walberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rube_Walberg)
Earl Whitehill (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1946&pid=15127)
Jim Whitney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Whitney)

Links to Negro League Baseball Players Association (http://www.nlbpa.com/), SABR (http://bioproj.sabr.org/) and Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org)
bios provided.

These Pitchers will be added into the losers of tier 9 for the tier
10 ballot. We will not be dipping into the pitchers with 1 vote,
0 votes or top pitchers not appearing on a ballot for tier 10.

*If phase 3 makes it to the tier 6 group, Jim Perry will appear with the ranking group from tier 6 on since he was somehow overlooked in the top also rans ballot. If not, I'll do a series of runoffs to determine which tier Perry would have ended up in.

[jjpm74]

Whether or not there is a tier 10 will depend on turnout for the tier 9 final. Once those tiers conclude, this will be the procedure for Phase 3:

1. We will start with vote for 1 polls. This will only remain so for as long as we have a clear winner with a minimum of 60% of the total votes cast. As soon as we drop below the 60% threshold, we will revert to vote for 5 polls.

2. Anyone receiving 25% or more in a given round will automatically be removed from the next poll and added to our final ranking.

3. In the event of ties in the top 20, we'll have runoff polls. Beyond the top 20, ties will stick as is and be broken when the ranking process is complete.

4. We will continue to rank as long as there's enough interest (a minimum of 8 ballots cast). Hopefully we'll get to #100, but if we don't, so be it. The main purpose of this project for me was to see roughly where this community places pitchers.

I'm hoping to run a discussion about the tiers and list when all voting is completed to see where everyone's HOF cutoff line is and what pitchers on our list ended up ranking below the current Cooperstown pitcher set +- a projected 10 would be in their personal HOF.

[Paul Wendt]

Bold marks those who are on the ballot here. This is the first Tier final for Kent Tekulve as well as for McDaniel and Perranoski. John Hiller is a holdover from the Tier 8 final, along with Face and the modern closer Jon Wetteland.


Relief Pitchers, career ranking, Total Baseball 1 (thru 1988 season) and status in BBF Tiers

top to bottom order - "Relief Ranking" by TB1 (numeral is BBF Tier)

2 Wilhelm
3 Gossage *
_ Kent Tekulve *
4 Sutter
4 Quisenberry *
_ John Hiller
7 Lyle
4 Fingers
_ Stanley *
5 Lee Smith *
------ ------ top ten above this line (all relief pitchers, same as 1950s-80s)
_ Garber
_ Righetti (the oldest pitcher in the next generation by my count, a starting pitcher in the early 1980s)
8 Marshall, rank 13
. . .
8 McGraw, rank 18

* active after 1988; only Gossage and Smith achieved much

Sutter had provided no value after 1984 and retired after 1988. Stanley retired after 79 mediocre innings in 1989 and 1988 was his only good season after 1985. Tekulve retired after 52 poor innings in 1989, although 1988 was his first mediocre season. Quisenberry put up a good season in 1989 and retired after 27 poor innings in 1990.


Relief Pitchers, career ranking, Baseball Encyclopedia 2005 (thru 2004 season) and status in BBF Tiers

Total Baseball thru 2001 (ed. 7) and The Baseball Encyclopedia from 2004 are the Pete Palmer encyclopedias. Here is the ranking of 1950s-80s relief pitchers after the 2004 season (BE 2005). Evidently there was some revision in the rating (not provided here) that underlies the ranking.

top to bottom order - "Relief Ranking" by BE2005 (numberal is BBF Tier)

2 Wilhelm
3 Gossage
5 Lee Smith
4 Quisenberry
4 Fingers
_ Kent Tekulve (rank 12t among all relief pitchers)
7 Lyle
8 Marshall
_ John Hiller (rank 16)
4 Sutter
------ ------ top ten above this line
8 McGraw
_ Ron Perranoski (28)
_ Kinder (29t)
_ Stanley (29t)
_ Lavelle (31)
_ Lindy McDaniel (33)
_ Stu Miller (34)
_ Elroy Face (36t)
_ Garber (39t)
_ Reardon (42t)
_ Carroll (46)

Roughly, this represents notable upgrade for Marshall, downgrade for Sutter and Stanley.

The latter list is intended to be complete. That is, the 21 pitchers listed here are the only "1950s-80s" relief pitchers among the Top 50 listed in the encyclopedia. Rank 50 is "three players tied" and the other 28 worked mainly in the late 1980s to date, iirc. The oldest whom I passed over is Dave Righetti and he ranks 47 so he would extend rather than rearrange this list.

[bambambaseball]

Kent Tekulve, Candy Cummings, Frank Viola and John Ward really stand out here and should run away with this.

[Paul Wendt]

the first "fast pitcher" and first baseball superstar
Creighton
remaining winners from the pre-1893 prelim (4)
Corcoran
Cummings
Mathews (listed at the bottom)
Ward
leading also-rans from the pre-1893 prelim, except Creighton (5)
Buffinton
Gleason
McBride
Stivetts
Will White
:
remaining winners from the Negro Leagues prelim (3)
Donaldson
Jackman
Winters
leading also-rans from the Negro League prelim (3)
Brewer
Dismukes
Radcliffe


(to be continued)

[Paul Wendt]

Who "really stands out"? judged by career rates, that is averages

By DERA*, one rate measure that incorporates batting

144 John Wetteland (the only "closer" on the ballot)
132 Noodles Hahn (2029 inns)
130 John Hiller
125 Carlos Zambrano (another good batter like Santana and Sabathia and the only "young" pitcher on the ballot)
123 Nap Rucker (2375 inns)
123 Babe Ruth (using the Babe's career batting rate, better than his 1915-1918 batting rate; the Babe in Red Stockings probably belongs in the middle of this gap)

119 Charlie Buffinton (3404 inns)
118 Mort Cooper
118 Kent Tekulve
117 Spud Chandler
117 Mel Parnell (Bill James #100)
115 Ed Rommel (2556 inns)

By ERA*, which uses official unearned runs to sort pitching from team fielding, the top twelve are the same with rearrangement. The main difference is that Rucker is in the second group (he suffered most from poor team fielding according to Davenport's measure).

By ERA* there are three more pitchers with net rates above 115,
117 Jack Stivetts (2888 inns)
116 Max Lanier (reinstated 1949)
115 Andy Messersmith (2230 inns)

Mixed with two early relief pitchers Elroy Face and Ron Perranoski they are also the next in rank by DERA*.

Cooper, Parnell, and Lanier pitched about 1800, 1700, 1600 innings in the majors. The eight others of 17 named here all pitched fewer than 1500 inns --that is not only four relief pitchers but Ruth, Chandler, and Zambrano to date.

At the bottom of the barrel,
Lew Burdette and Joe Niekro?
: DERA* and ERA* agree that they were notably below mlb-average pitcher-batters for their careers.
: DERA+ and ERA+ agree that they were far below mlb-average pitchers for their careers.

others with DERA* < 102 (roughly average pitcher-batters, on average)
: Marquard 101.2, Stewart, McNally, McLain, Cuellar 97.5
others with ERA* < 102 (roughly average pitcher-batters, on average)
: McNally 101.7, Stewart, Marquard, Cuellar, McLain 98.5

others with DERA+ < 102 (roughly average pitchers, on average)
: Corcoran 101.8, Ward, Cuellar, McLain, McNally, Stewart 98.0
others with ERA+ < 102 (roughly average pitchers, on average)
: Drabek 101, McLain 101, Stewart 100

[Paul Wendt]

(to be continued)

Who "really stands out"? judged by career value
(not rate, not peak, not intangible); as pitchers (the Babe in Red Stockings only)

Rate leaders Noodles Hahn and Nap Rucker pitched enough to stand out by career value on this ballot, along with three others
: Bobby Mathews from the dawn of pro ball;
: Charlie Buffinton and Jack Stivetts from the 19th century.

Those five stand out by some simple bulk measures; not Will White because he wasn't as good; not J.M. Ward, who pitched only 2400 inns.

Six others easily earn my vote on career value grounds, although they do not "stand out".
: Doc White, a contemporary of Hahn and Rucker;
: Bob Shawkey, George Uhle, and Eddie Rommel from around 1920.
: Frank Viola and Chuck Finley seem to be the best starting pitchers since WWII (with enough "bulk" to be called career value candidates).

--
That is eleven. Five other "rate standouts" should probably get my votes.
: Andy Messersmith and Mel Stottlemyre were very good in medium-long careers.
: Kent Tekulve and John Hiller are the class of the old-fashioned relief pitchers and
: Jon Wetteland is the only notable closer, a very good one.

--
That is sixteen and that is enough to choose on career statistics alone, rates and totals.

The next best in career value are candidates for some of those four votes but no more than candidates.
: Mel Harder, Paul Derringer, Charlie Root from the 1930s
: Kenny Rogers and Mark Langston from the 1990s

There are peaks and intangibles to consider, of course. There are pioneers and blackball stars, too.
: Jim Creighton, Dick McBride, Candy Cummings, J.M. Ward
: John Donaldson, Will Jackman, Nip Winters, Chet Brewer

On second thought, I see that those five "next best in career value", Mel Harder & Co., will not get any of my votes. If anything I will need to backtrack and reconsider the five lesser "rate standouts", Andy Messersmith & Co.; go back to eleven votes, the first section of this article only.

--
The middle years, 1920s to 1940s provide all five of the men on this ballot whom
Bill James put in his own Top 100 major league pitchers (New BJHBA).
: Eddie Rommel, George Uhle, Mel Harder, Bob Shawkey, Mel Parnell
(That is in BJ order, not chronological.) None of the five would be a terribly bad choice for a vote at this stage but Bill James does not deserve any kudos here. If this were a "vote for 10" then I might vote for none of them. They are overrated by Bill James.

[J W]

Through five ballots, five pitchers have 4-5 votes, and the rest is pretty spread out. Again, there were a few suprises checking the results after my vote. I voted for quite a few pitchers that Paul noted, but many of them are not getting play right now. Actually of the five that Bill James listed in his top 100, I still cut Mel Parnell from my list of 20 (he came close). What is the argument for Parnell to be top 100 material?

I still hope we can get through Tier 10 -- maybe shorten it up a little -- there will be 39 names left over from this list after all (by my count).

[jjpm74]

Through five ballots, five pitchers have 4-5 votes, and the rest is pretty spread out. Again, there were a few suprises checking the results after my vote. I voted for quite a few pitchers that Paul noted, but many of them are not getting play right now. Actually of the five that Bill James listed in his top 100, I still cut Mel Parnell from my list of 20 (he came close). What is the argument for Parnell to be top 100 material?

I still hope we can get through Tier 10 -- maybe shorten it up a little -- there will be 39 names left over from this list after all (by my count).

I'm going to combine the losers of this round with the pitchers who received 2 or 3 votes in the 2 preliminaries from this round for tier 10. That will give us a good enough cross section to do a tier 10.

[Paul Wendt]

JW is relatively new to this project and to the Also-Ran Pitchers --which once featured entirely different pitchers but now features mainly the same ones. I'll pick it up again when jjpm returns to the top of the long list.

Relatively new participants are just what we need.

Altho I am not new in these projects (and I am 12 months old at BBF), I am also willing and able to vote early, interested in voting forever. But the numbers of interested and moderately informed voters is dwindling.


I'm going to combine the losers of this round with the pitchers who received 2 or 3 votes in the 2 preliminaries from this round for tier 10. That will give us a good enough cross section to do a tier 10.
A few others may turn up. When I did the relief pitchers rankings I noticed Ellis Kinder and Dave Righetti. Long ago Hilton Smith was lost for a while.

[jjpm74]

1/2 way in and with 10 ballots cast, we have one clear leader in Frank Viola so far. Chuck Finley, Noodles Hahn, Jesse Haines and Kent Tekulve are not too far behind and stand a good chance of being selected. Mike Cuellar, John Donaldson, Roy Face, John Hiller, Rube Marquard, Sam McDowell, Dave McNally, Jim Perry, Johnny Podres and Babe Ruth have all managed at least 50% of the votes so far.

That gives us 15 and leaves us with the remaining 39 pitchers at 1-4 votes all vying for the last 5 slots. This one's wide open.

[J W]

As we stand, 22 pitchers have 5+ votes. Adding to the previous list, we have Lew Burdette, Mel Harder, Al Leiter, Mel Parnell, Kenny Rogers, Bob Shawkey, and Dave Stewart.

Of the remaining candidates on the outside looking in... these names stand out to me, all of whom are on my ballot:

John Wetteland - With Tekulve, Face, and Hiller already garnering votes... Wetteland should be among them. His is a more modern career, yes; but he was a nearly dominant closer, one of the best of his day (basically the steroid era). He finished in MVP voting four times and earned a career 1.135 WHIP.

Eddie Rommell - I don't think there are many pitchers on this list with 150+ wins (171), a winning percentage at or above .590, and a career ERA+ over 120 (121). Rommell suffers a bit by having his career wedged between the two great Philly A's eras (the Collins-Baker-Plank-Waddell-Bender teams and the Simmons-Cochrane-Grove-Foxx teams) but he did contribute some to the latter.

Charlie Root - 174 Gray Ink score (64th all time)... and among his 10 most similar pitchers: Jesse Haines, Jim Perry, Lew Burdette and Rube Marquard, all projected to make it in. Also Milt Pappas from Tier 8 and Dolph Luque from Tier 6.

George Uhle - a measly one vote so far... I think he's being penalized for the atrocious hitting environment he played in.

Charlie Buffinton - zero 19th century pitchers are on the list above and he should be next in line... although I also voted for Mathews.

[bambambaseball]

How come Lew Burdette is doing well? I dont see it. What am I missing?
:sleepy:

[PVNICK]

How come Lew Burdette is doing well? I dont see it. What am I missing?
:sleepy:

1957 WS 3 starts 3 CG 3W 2ER including a shutout in gane 7. If Schilling's bloody sock takes him a step or two above his means and peers then this goes a long way to explain Burdette.

[jjpm74]

1957 WS 3 starts 3 CG 3W 2ER including a shutout in gane 7. If Schilling's bloody sock takes him a step or two above his means and peers then this goes a long way to explain Burdette.

Agreed and given the fact that Johnny Van Der Meer and Don Larson received votes in the preliminaries of this tier, it's safe to say that notable single or multi-game achievements are factoring in more heavily than they did in the earlier tiers of this project.

[PVNICK]

To be honest I'm a bit embarrassed because I voted for him. I guess the57 WS was prominent in my impression about him, which along with his win totals and some boost from being a tandem with Spahn. As a result it has placed his reputation (at least with me) well beyond what it would be from a look at the his numbers, in particular the 98 ERA+, with not all that many years over 100.

[jjpm74]

The following 19 pitchers have earned a spot in tier 9:

Lew Burdette
Mike Cuellar
John Donaldson
Roy Face
Chuck Finley
Noodles Hahn
Jesse Haines
Al Leiter
Rube Marquard
Sam McDowell
Dave McNally
Mel Parnell
Jim Perry
Johnny Podres
Babe Ruth
Bob Shawkey
Dave Stewart
Kent Tekulve
Frank Viola

The following pitchers will enter into a vote for 1 runoff for the 20th slot:

Mel Harder
John Hiller
Double Duty Radcliffe
Kenny Rogers

Since Jim Perry finished in the middle of the pack here and did not run away with this, I will not worry about running polls to see if he was better suited for Tier 6,7,8 or 9. He will remain in Tier 9.

[Paul Wendt]

Two votes for Charlie Buffinton?
That's odd, he reaped seven votes for Tier 8, enough to get into the runoff where he reaped 8 more.
. . .
Huh, that runoff was "vote for 7 of 12" and everyone and it comprised pitchers with seven votes for Tier 8, but only one of the five runoff losers managed to win a spot in Tier 9!

Here is the quintet that slumped to ignominy from the verge of glory, that is from seven votes in the Tier 8 final and seven or eight in the runoff. How did they do here, in competition with all of the new blood and some old blood?

Tier 8 runoff losers
6, Donaldson (elected)
4, Jackman
4, Ward
3, Zambrano
2, Buffinton

Here in the Tier 9 final we elected only
- six holdovers, Donaldson plus five who didn't qualify for that runoff (Marquard, Haines, Podres, Face, Stewart, blech);
- nine modern stage one also-rans, Parnell to Leiter;
- two old-time stage one also-rans, Hahn and Shawkey; and
- two who were omitted from stage one, Ruth and McNally.

Donaldson and Marquard were stage one winners. A few others are still kicking around, hoping to get into Tier 10.
: pre-1893 : Candy Cummings, Bobby Mathews, J.M. Ward, Larry Corcoran
: Negro Lgs : Bill Jackman, Nip Winters
: drum roll : Denny McLain

In my book McLain has just now wrested a certain dishonorary booby prize from Marquard.

Marquard does take home another booby prize, however, as the last Hall of Fame pitcher to be Tiered (Cummings and Ward ineligible). Even Jesse Haines, who did not advance from stage one, made it through the back door in the nick of time and beat Rube 8-7 in this poll! (Congratulations, Pop.)

[J W]

I agree there are some curious results considering past support Paul. I apologize for omitting John Donaldson and I'm glad he made it. Otherwise I'm actually glad a few of those names dropped in support. I don't get Buffinton and I hope he makes Tier 10. Same with the others I listed above.

The runoff is an interesting race this time. When I was comparing everyone on the long list to each other, I ended up voting for Rogers (and Hiller) and not Harder... but taking a look at them in a narrower scope, Rogers and Harder had very similar careers... and Harder's career had a tick more substance. I'm inclined to vote for Harder in the runoff. Maybe this is why we see up-and-down voting this far into the fray; a lot of pitchers compare to each other and there's a lot of mixing and matching.

Radcliffe has the same problem as Monte Ward and I think both belong in the same tier (in this case, ten).