1937 Best of Baseball Project

[jalbright]

This is our second election in this project, and we now go to 12 player ballots. As before, the contributor ballot is 5. The entire rules follow.

This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EST January 2, 2009.

The prior election, and the ballots of the 1936 voters, are in this thread. (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85052)

[jalbright]

Rules

1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance, or only the first vote will be counted. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, I request that you PM me (jalbright) to ensure that I am aware of the change(s) or make a separate posting in the voting thread. You must let me know the players involved in the changes at a minimum, but it would also help if you added their rankings (before and after). I cannot agree to be responsible for monitoring the thread for any changes voters might make. If I catch them, fine, but if I don't and am not notified, the official count will be what I have been notified of, not what is on the thread.

7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or death, whichever comes first. The early death rule applies here as well.

9) Each election will run for two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

10) No one is ineligible, nor are players from any league ineligible. Please note, however, that the standard for including a player is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project. Candidates will not lose eligiblity after becoming eligible except by being elected as either a contributor or player. However, voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

11) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

12) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however.

13) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

14) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

15) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

16) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

17) For any ties straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 3-2-1 or whatever is appropriate system. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, take those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

18) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

19) I reserve the right to hold both 19th century and Negro League special elections in 2000 if we don't have a sufficient number in those categories by then. These elections probably will be limited to voters I feel are appropriately versed on the group of players to be considered. I do wish to only use this as a last resort, however, and only to ensure that those groups received what I regard as at least adequate bare minimum representation. I do not plan on sharing with you what I consider to meet those bare minimum standards, but I think that the numbers I am thinking of are well below the number of candidates that well informed observers believe are well qualified candidates from each group.

20) I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing this standard, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted.

21) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

22) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread

[jalbright]

The 1937 class of newly-eligible players:


Bush , Joe
Cooper , Wilbur
Hargrave , Bubbles
Jones , Sam P.
Nehf , Art
Oeschger , Joe
Schacht , Al
Schalk , Ray
Scott , Everett
Scott , Jack


The 1937 class of newly-eligible contributors:

Clarke , Fred
Elias , Al Munro

[jalbright]

Those players receiving votes in 1936 without being elected:


Player…………………….. # votes points
Anson , Cap………….. 19 176
Brouthers , Dan……… 19 170
Williams , Smoky Joe 18 163
Nichols , Kid…………. 20 160
Crawford , Sam…….. 18 111
Delahanty , Ed ………. 18 104
Ewing , Buck………… 16 101
Connor , Roger………. 13 74
Baker , Frank………… 12 57
Plank , Eddie…………. 6 29
Brown , Mordecai…… 4 26
Keefe , Tim…………… 6 22
Wright , George……… 3 20
Hamilton , Billy……….. 6 15
O'Rourke , Jim……….. 5 15
Barnes , Ross……….. 2 14
Clarkson , John ……… 3 14
Davis , George………. 5 14
Kelly , King…………… 4 11
Galvin , Pud………….. 1 9
Santop , Louis………. 2 8
White , Deacon ……… 3 6
Bennett , Charlie…….. 1 4
Hines , Paul…………. 2 4
Jackson , Joe……….. 1 4
Sutton , Ezra………… 1 4
Poles , Spotswood 1 3
Thompson , Sam…….. 1 3
Walsh , Ed…………….. 1 3
Grant , Frank………… 1 2
Burkett , Jesse……… 1 1
Start , Joe…………… 1 1



Those contributors receiving votes in 1936 without being elected:


Contributor…………… # votes points
Chadwick , Harry……. 13 43
Cartwright , Alexander 9 38
McGraw , John……… 10 37
Wright , Harry……….. 15 30
Foster , Rube……….. 8 20
Hulbert , William…….. 6 14
Adams , Doc………… .... 4... 11
Creighton , Jim……… 3 8
Johnson , Ban………. 2 3
Spalding , Al………… 2 3
Landis , Kenesaw….. 1 1


I would suggest folks pay attention to these lists of folks getting votes in the prior election, as the new electees are likely to be either the top holdovers or the newly eligible.

[jalbright]

The complete list of eligible players:


Adams , Babe
Altrock , Nick
Anson , Cap
Archer , Jimmy
Austin , Jimmy
Baker , Frank
Bancroft , Dave
Barnes , Ross
Barry , Jack
Battin , Joe
Beaumont , Ginger
Beckley , Jake
Bender , Chief
Bennett , Charlie
Bergen , Marty
Bodie , Ping
Bond , Tommy
Bradley , Bill
Breitenstein , Ted
Bresnahan , Roger
Brouthers , Dan
Brown , Mordecai
Browning , Pete
Burkett , Jesse
Burns , George
Bush , Joe
Bush , Donie
Cadore , Leon
Camnitz , Howie
Carey , Max
Carrigan , Bill
Caruthers , Bob
Chance , Frank
Chapman , Ray
Chase , Hal
Chesbro , Jack
Childs , Cupid
Cicotte , Eddie
Clarke , Fred
Clarkson , John
Coakley , Andy
Collins , Jimmy
Collins , Shano
Connor , Roger
Conroy , Wid
Coombs , Jack
Cooper , Wilbur
Coveleski , Stan
Crandall , Doc
Cravath , Gavvy
Crawford , Sam
Creighton , Jim
Criger , Lou
Cross , Lave
Cruise , Walt
Cummings , Candy
Dahlen , Bill
Daubert , Jake
Davis , George
Davis , Harry
Delahanty , Ed
Dinneen , Bill
Doak , Bill
Donlin , Mike
Donovan , Bill
Dooin , Red
Doyle , Jack
Doyle , Larry
Duffy , Hugh
Dunlap , Fred
Elberfeld , Kid
Ens , Jewel
Evers , Johnny
Ewing , Buck
Faber , Red
Falkenberg , Cy
Fletcher , Art
Flick , Elmer
Foster , Eddie
Foster , Rube
Fraser , Chick
Galvin , Pud
Glasscock , Jack
Gleason , Kid
Gonzalez , Mike
Gore , George
Gowdy , Hank
Grant , Eddie
Grant , Frank
Griffith , Clark
Groh , Heinie
Hahn , Noodles
Hamilton , Billy
Hargrave , Bubbles
Herzog , Buck
Hill , Pete
Hinchman , Bill
Hines , Paul
Hooper , Harry
Huggins , Miller
Irwin , Charlie
Jackson , Joe
Jennings , Hughie
Johnson , Home Run
Jones , Charley
Jones , Fielder
Jones , Sam P.
Jordan , Tim
Joss , Addie
Keefe , Tim
Keeler , Willie
Kelley , Joe
Kelly , King
Killefer , Bill
Kilroy , Matt
Kling , Johnny
Knabe , Otto
Lange , Bill
Larkin , Henry
Latham , Arlie
Leach , Tommy
Leever , Sam
Lewis , Duffy
Lobert , Hans
Long , Herman
Lowe , Bobby
Luque , Dolf
Lyons , Denny
Magee , Sherry
Maranville , Rabbit
Marquard , Rube
Mathews , Bobby
Mays , Carl
McAleer , Jimmy
McCarthy , Tommy
McCormick , Jim
McGinnity , Joe
McGraw , John
McInnis , Stuffy
McLean , Larry
McPhee , Bid
McVey , Cal
Mendez , Jose
Milan , Clyde
Miller , Dots
Moran , Pat
Mullane , Tony
Murphy , Danny
Murray , Red
Nehf , Art
Nichols , Kid
Oeschger , Joe
O'Leary , Charlie
O'Neill , Steve
O'Neill , Tip
O'Rourke , Jim
Orr , Dave
Pabor , Charlie
Paskert , Dode
Pearce , Dickey
Peckinpaugh , Roger
Peitz , Heinie
Perdue , Hub
Phillippe , Deacon
Pike , Lip
Plank , Eddie
Poles , Spotswood
Quinn , Jack
Radbourn , Charlie
Raymond , Bugs
Redding , Dick
Remsen , Jack
Rice , Sam
Richardson , Hardy
Ritchey , Claude
Rixey , Eppa
Robertson , Dave
Rucker , Nap
Rudolph , Dick
Rusie , Amos
Ryan , Jimmy
Santop , Louis
Schacht , Al
Schaefer , Germany
Schalk , Ray
Schang , Wally
Schreckengost , Ossie
Schulte , Frank
Scott , Everett
Scott , Jack
Severeid , Hank
Seymour , Cy
Sheckard , Jimmy
Shocker , Urban
Smith , Sherry
Sparks , Tully
Spaulding , Al
Stahl , Jake
Start , Joe
Steinfeldt , Harry
Stovey , Harry
Street , Gabby
Sutton , Ezra
Sweeney , Bill
Tannehill , Jesse
Taylor , Ben
Tenney , Fred
Thomas , Ira
Thompson , Sam
Tiernan , Mike
Tinker , Joe
Toney , Fred
Turner , Terry
Van Haltren , George
Vance , Dazzy
Veach , Bobby
Waddell , Rube
Wallace , Bobby
Walsh , Ed
Ward , John M.
Warfield , Frank
Welch , Mickey
Wheat , Zack
White , Deacon
White , Sol
White , Will
Williams , Cy
Williams , Ken
Williams , Smoky Joe
Williamson , Ned
Willis , Vic
Wood , Joe
Wright , George
Yerkes , Steve
Youngs , Ross
Zimmer , Chief


The complete list of eligible contributors:

Abe , Iso
Adams , Doc
Anson , Cap
Bancroft , Frank
Barrow , Ed
Bulkely , Morgan
Cartwright , Alexander
Chadwick , Harry
Chance , Frank
Clarke , Fred
Commiskey , Charlie
Conlan , Charles
Connolly , Tom
Creighton , Jim
Cummings , Candy
Dreyfuss , Barney
Dunn , Jack
Elias , Al Munro
Foster , Rube
Gleason , Kid
Griffith , Clark
Hanlon , Ned
Huggins , Miller
Hulbert , William
Johnson , Ban
Landis , Kenesaw
Lardner , Ring
Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
McCarthy , Tommy
McGraw , John
Mendez , Jose
Moran , Pat
Mutrie , Jim
Osborn , Frank
Reach , A. J.
Richter , Francis
Robinson , Wilbert
Selee , Frank
Shibe , Ben
Spalding , Al
Taylor , C. I.
Thayer , Ernest
Ward , John M.
Warfield , Frank
White , Sol
Wilson , Horace
Wright , George
Wright , Harry

[jalbright]

My Ballot:

Players
1. Smoky Joe Williams
2. Kid Nichols
3. Cap Anson
4. Sam Crawford
5. Dan Brouthers
6. Jim O’Rourke
7. Roger Connor
8. Ed Delahanty
9. Frank Baker
10. Eddie Plank
11. King Kelly
12. Monte Ward

Contributors
1. John McGraw
2. Rube Foster
3. Harry Wright
4. Harry Chadwick
5. William Hulbert

[jalbright]

I dropped Deacon White for the time being, and put Eddie Plank, King Kelly and Monte Ward in my three open slots. Among the newly eligible, I think Wilbur Cooper will get votes eventually, and on the contributor side, I'd rather see Clarke make it as a player, but if he stays long enough, he could get votes as a contributor. I'm not sure how many others of the newly eligible will draw much support, even in the long haul.

[dgarza]

Players
1. Dan Brouthers
2. Cap Anson
3. Ed Delahanty
4. Sam Crawford
5. Kid Nichols
6. Roger Connor
7. Tim Keefe
8. John Clarkson
9. Jesse Burkett
10. Joe Jackson
11. Ross Barnes
12. Jim O'Rourke


Contributors
1. John McGraw
2. Harry Wright
3. Al Spalding
4. Kenesaw Landis
5. Rube Foster

[mwiggins]

1. Dan Brouthers
2. Sam Crawford
3. Ed Delahanty
4. Kid Nichols
5. Cap Anson
6. Buck Ewing
7. Smokey Joe Williams
8. Billy Hamilton
9. Mordecai Brown
10. Frank Baker
11. Roger Connor
12. George Davis

[Domenic]

Players
01. Kid Nichols
02. Sam Crawford
03. Dan Brouthers
04. Smokey Joe Williams
05. Frank Baker
06. Eddie Plank
07. Mordecai Brown
08. Cap Anson
09. Roger Connor
10. Ed Delahanty
11. King Kelly
12. Monte Ward

Contributors
01. Rube Foster
02. John McGraw
03. Harry Wright
04. William Hulbert
05. Harry Chadwick

[jjpm74]

Players:

1. Smoky Joe Williams
2. Cap Anson
3. Dan Brouthers
4.Buck Ewing
5.Frank Baker
6.Roger Connor
7.Kid Nichols
8.Ezra Sutton
9.Ross Barnes
10.Joe Start
11. Jim O'Rourke
12. Jimmy Collins

Contributors:

1. Doc Adams
2. Henry Chadwick
3. Jim Creighton
4. Harry Wright
5. Rube Foster

Not yet on my ballot, but high in my consideration set:

Crawford, Sam
Dahlen , Bill
Davis , George
Delahanty , Ed
Gore , George
Groh , Heinie
Hines , Paul
Kelly , King
McPhee , Bid
Rusie , Amos
Walsh , Ed
White , Deacon

There are no newly eligible candidates this year I can see voting for at all with the exception of maybe Wilbur Cooper way down the road so I dipped into my already established queue from the last round to fill the missing holes.

[jalbright]

jjpm:

Sam Crawford isn't in your top 30-35 of those eligible so far? Seems a little low to me.

[jjpm74]

jjpm:

Sam Crawford isn't in your top 30-35 of those eligible so far? Seems a little low to me.

He's right below the list of players I posted above including my queue.

[leecemark]

1. Cap Anson
2. George Wright
3. Buck Ewing
4. Ross Barnes
5. Sam Crawford
6. Luis Santop
7. Kid Nichols
8. Frank Baker
9. Billy Hamilton
10. Paul Hines
11. John Clarkson
12. Dan Brouthers

1. Alexander cartwright
2. Harry Wright
3. Henry Chadwick
4. Ban Johnson
5. William Hulbert

[AstrosFan]

Players:

1. Dan Brouthers
2. Smoky Joe Williams
3. Buck Ewing
4. Ed Delahanty
5. Sam Crawford
6. Kid Nichols
7. Roger Connor
8. George Davis
9. Cap Anson
10. Tim Keefe
11. Frank Baker
12. John Clarkson

Contributors:

1. John McGraw
2. Rube Foster
3. Henry Chadwick
4. Alexander Cartwright
5. Harry Wright

[Dogdaze]

Players:

1. Smoky Joe Williams
2. Dan Brouthers
3. Buck Ewing
4. Mordecai Brown
5. Sam Crawford
6. Kid Nichols
7. Roger Connor
8. Eddie Plank
9. Tim Keefe
10. Louis Santop
11. Ed Delahanty
12. Frank Baker

Contributors:

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Doc Adams
3. Rube Foster
4. Henry Chadwick
5. John McGraw

[Captain Cold Nose]

1. Cap Anson
2. Kid Nichols
3. Ed Delahanty
4. Buck Ewing
5. Dan Brouthers
6. Smoky Joe Williams
7. Mordecai Brown
8. Ed Walsh
9. King Kelly
10. Billy Hamilton
11. Sam Crawford
12. Frank Baker

Contributors

1. Henry Chadwick
2. John McGraw
3. Alexander Cartwright
4. Al Spalding
5. Harry Wright

[PVNICK]

1. Smokey Joe Williams
2. Cap Anson
3. John Clarkson
4. Tim Keefe
5. Sam Crawford
6. Buck Ewing
7. Kid Nichols
8. King Kelly
9. George Davis
10. Ed Delehanthy
11. Dan Brouthers
12. Roger Conner

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Harry Chadwick
3. Harry Wright
4. Rube Foster
5. Jim Creighton

[jalbright]

I've PMd PVNick about the duplication of King Kelly, though the ballot would count as it stands, with the first listing of Kelly used. With his ballot, we've got a quorum for the 1937 players, and are only one away from a quorum on the contributors.

[BlueBlood]

1. Smoky Joe Williams
2. Dan Brouthers
3. Buck Ewing
4. Sam Crawford
5. Kid Nichols
6. Ed Delahanty
7. Roger Connor
8. Frank Baker
9. Eddie Plank
10. Tim Keefe
11. Cap Anson
12. King Kelly

1. Harry Chadwick
2. Alexander Cartwright
3. John McGraw
4. Harry Wright
5. Rube Foster

[Freakshow]

1. Cap Anson
2. Dan Brouthers
3. Ed Delahanty
4. Kid Nichols
5. Smoky Joe Williams
6. Roger Connor
7. Buck Ewing
8. Sam Crawford
9. George Wright
10. Jim O’Rourke
11. Frank Baker
12. King Kelly

[STLCards2]

Players:

1.Smokey Joe Williams
2.Cap Anson
3.Dan Brouthers
4.Kid Nichols
5.Ed Delehanty
6.Sam Crawford
7.Buck Ewing
8.Frank Baker
9.Eddie Plank
10.Roger Connor
11.Ed Walsh
12.Billy Hamilton

Contributors:

1. Alex Cartwright
2. Henry Chadwick
3. Rube Foster
4. Harry Wright
5. John McGraw

[bambambaseball]

Players:

1. Anson , Cap
2. Brouthers , Dan
3. Sam Crawford
4. Connor , Roger
5. Nichols , Kid
6. Ewing , Buck
7. Baker , Frank
8. Bennett , Charlie
9. Delahanty , Ed
10. Williams , Smoky Joe
11. O'Rourke , Jim
12. Collins, Jimmy

Contributers:

1. Creighton, Jim
2. McGraw, John
3. Chadwick, Henry
4. Adams, Doc
5. Wright, Harry

[philkid3]

Players
1. Cap Anson
2. Dan Brouthers
3. Buck Ewing
4. Frank Baker
5. Billy Hamilton
6. Kid Nichols
7. Smoky Joe Williams
8. Ed Delahanty
9. Roger Connor
10. Sam Crawford
11. Mordecai Brown
12. Eddie Plank

[STLCards2]

I switched Billy Hamilton in for George Davis.

[jjpm74]

I'm a bit surprised to see Wilbur Cooper show up on a ballot. He's definitely not an inner circle HOFer.

[henrich]

I'll switch out george davis for Dan brouthers.

1. Eddie Plank
2. Mordecai Brown
3. Sam Crawford
4. Pud Galvin
5. Cap Anson
6. Ed Delahanty
7. Tim Keefe
8. Dan Brouthers
9. Frank Baker
10. Billy Hamilton
11. King Kelly
12. Buck Ewing

I moved Brouthers up to where his H-Factor has him regardless of positional weight.

[jalbright]

I'm a bit surprised to see Wilbur Cooper show up on a ballot. He's definitely not an inner circle HOFer.

I concur. I said earlier in this thread:

Among the newly eligible, I think Wilbur Cooper will get votes eventually

However, the key word to me was the last one ("eventually"). He is in my queue, but well down that list. Remember, folks, once a guy becomes eligible, the only way he loses his eligibility is to be elected to this project's Hall of Fame as either a player or contributor.

[bambambaseball]

I misread the rules and messed up. :hide:I thought we had to take someone from each year. Sorry. :blush:

I put Jimmy Collins for 12 instead of Wilbur Cooper.

[jalbright]

I misread the rules and messed up. :hide:I thought we had to take someone from each year. Sorry. :blush:

I put Jimmy Collins for 12 instead of Wilbur Cooper.

The joys of a new project. No worries.

[jalbright]

Sixteen of our 21 voters from last time have already voted. Looks like we'll do fine with a two week cycle--but I don't want to do that over Christmas week, so the January 2 end of this cycle will stand.

[jalbright]

This post is designed as much as anything to bump the thread back up the list so it doesn't slide to page 2. However, it will also serve as a reminder to our five voters from the first election who haven't yet voted in this one: J W, Paul Wendt, Mike90, Erik Bedard, and AG2004.

Also, Happy Holidays to one and all!

[jalbright]

Another bump post. To those who celebrate December 25, Merry Christmas!, and to those who celebrate other holidays, Happy Holidays to you as well.

[BlueBlood]

Wouldn't mind seeing an update on the voting for reference's sake. :nod:

[jalbright]

Wouldn't mind seeing an update on the voting for reference's sake. :nod:

Not going to happen, at least from me. Less people want it in these elections, and I see greater potential for mischief from doing so in this format than in the BBF HOF format. It will be less of a problem when we go to the two week schedule with the next election. The Christmas holiday has historically been a deader time in the HOF projects.

[Paul Wendt]

The 1937 class of newly-eligible contributors:
Clarke, Fred
Elias , Al Munro

What did Al Munro Elias do, specifically?
Is Neil Munro a member of the extended family?

Rules
. . .
4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.
. . .

11) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

12) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however.

13) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both.
[That elaborates point 5). -Ed.]
Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

Evidently we are aiming for about sixty contributors. On schedule 4), we will elect 50 through 1985 and we will elect number 58 in 2009. Right?

If a player is elected from the contributor or player list will he remain on the other list?
No. See point 13).

--
Does the introductory thread include enlightening discussion of "the best" in so-called contributions?

Elsewhere, if not in that introduction too, Jim Albright has argued for impact rather than symbolism. Did he make a difference? Regarding Frank Osborn or Al Elias that point is a spotlight on the personal role of a man in contrast to a corporation that he founds or leads (if Al Elias does lead).

Now I have in mind especially the difference between impact and impact for good. Nearby someone suggested that Henry Chadwick was a bad influence on our national game. A National League diehard may condemn Ban Johnson and I'm sure Ban went to his grave condemning Judge Landis. Many advocates of economic competition probably condemn Al Spalding. Then there are John Ward, Chief Zimmer, Dave Fultz, and other leaders of the players organizations. And so it goes. Nearby someone voted for Jack Norworth but I don't think "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" is a job so well done.


copied from 1936 for convenience, not yet a ballot cast
Contributors
1. Harry Wright
2. Henry Chadwick
3. Dock Adams
4. William Hulbert
5. Ban Johnson

Rube Foster is the strongest alternate, I suppose.
Mack and Comiskey
Spalding
Cartwright and the original Knickerbockers
Francis Richter
John McGraw

--
8. Roger Connor
9. Dan Brouthers
11. Ed Delahanty
13. Cap Anson
15. Joe Williams
16. Kid Nichols

17. George Wright
18. George Davis
19. Billy Hamilton
20. Sam Crawford

White, Ewing
barnes
Dahlen, johnson
Baker
Hines
O'Rourke, Kelly --at the 'OF/all' fielding position
burkett, clarke -- merely OF, not OFall

[jalbright]

Al Munro Elias founded the Elias Sports Bureau, which popularized and standardized the collection and dissemination of baseball stats. He started the record keeping and set the standards. Obviously, as the business grew, he became more an executive than a hands-on guy. The Bureau kept good, accurate records, and did such things as the first regular lists of in-season leaders in such things as average and the like. See The Numbers Game by Alan Schwarz.

There will be about 60 contributors in our project when we get to annual player elections. The contributor section is an amorphous beast, subject to the whims of those voting in those elections. That said, my personal guidepost is those who have a positive impact on the game, as those with a predominantly negative impact do not deserve to be honored. Some, like Landis or Ban Johnson, are a mixture of positives and negatives, and all I can say in those cases is that we should try to determine whether in our own opinions the contributions of the individuals are positive or negative, and, if positive, try to assess the extent of the overall positive impact. Even using my very general guidepost, there's going to be a wide divergence of opinion here.

[Paul Wendt]

I'll switch out george davis for Dan brouthers.

1. Eddie Plank
2. Mordecai Brown
3. Sam Crawford
4. Pud Galvin
5. Cap Anson
6. Ed Delahanty
7. Tim Keefe
8. Dan Brouthers
9. Frank Baker
10. Billy Hamilton
11. King Kelly
12. Buck Ewing

I moved Brouthers up to where his H-Factor has him regardless of positional weight.

henrich,
Did 'H-Factor' rank this motley crew ahead of Kid Nichols?
Or did 'henrich' mark Nichols elected in 1936?

[henrich]

Paul,

Good question. I just took the top 2 pitchers from era 1 and era 2.

From Era 2
1. Plank 16,831
2. Brown 13,659
3. Nichols 13,199
From era 1
1. Galvin 12,739
2. Keefe 11,552

The rankings are minus the players inducted. I could have voted for another pitcher I suppose, I just tried to be as balanced as I could, though Nichols certainly has a beef about the way I voted within my own system as a guide:crazy

[Paul Wendt]

Contributors
1. Harry Wright
2. Henry Chadwick
3. Doc Adams
4. William Hulbert
5. Rube Foster

Ban Johnson

Three fathers outclass three strongmen.


Players
1. Roger Connor
2. Dan Brouthers
3. Ed Delahanty
4. Cap Anson
5. George Wright
6. Joe Williams
7. George Davis
8. Deacon White
9. Billy Hamilton
10. Jim O'Rourke
11. Bill Dahlen
12. Kid Nichols

Ewing
barnes
Baker
hines
Burkett, Clarke; Crawford
Kelly

Connor, Brouthers, and Delahanty mastered batting like no one else. The first giant in New York, Roger Connor played thirdbase for a while and he settled at firstbase much more comfortably than Dan Brouthers ever did.

[J W]

Players' Ballot
1. Cap Anson
2. Kid Nichols
3. Smokey Joe Williams
4. Ed Delahanty
5. Dan Brouthers
6. Sam Crawford
7. Joe Jackson
8. Buck Ewing
9. Frank Grant
10. Eddie Plank
11. Mordecai Brown
12. Frank Baker

Contributors' Ballot
1. John McGraw
2. Henry Chadwick
3. William Hulbert
4. Harry Wright
5. Rube Foster

[jalbright]

I'm already thinking about the next election, and there's three folks I want to highlight. One will be newly eligible (Cristobal Torriente), and two have been on the ballot (John Ward and Jim O'Rourke).

First, the new guy:

Cristobal Torriente
Years played: 1913-1928 (14 Cuban winters)
Main position: CF
All Star selections: 9 time Holway pick
MVPs: ESPN two, James one (beginning in 1920), and Holway none
League champions on: 5 American summers, 4 Cuban Winter
League leading performances: In American summers, led once in average. In Cuba, second in career average and second in career steals, led in homers five times, steals four, hits three, runs four, and average twice.
Expert rankings: 2nd OF in CPDD historian’s poll, third OF in Courier poll, 20th in SABR poll, not listed in Museum poll results, James’ #2 Negro League CF, 67th overall, and all time Negro League Gold Glove selection, third team Clark selection, and on Team #2 of the All-World picks.

Shades of Glory doesn’t report his data, so the best I’ve got on him comes from David Lawrence’s work in an APBA set of Negro League franchise all-stars. He’s rated for the Chicago American Giants, which covers him in his prime of 1918-1925. They have him with a .335 average, .369 OBP and .554 slugging percentage and 24.5 steals per 550 AB with that squad. His Cuban data for the twelve seasons we have extra base hit counts yields a .352 average and .499 slugging. I rank him between Reggie Jackson and Al Simmons.

[jalbright]

Next, John Ward, but only as a player right now:

John Montgomery Ward:

His playing career divides into two parts, which makes it hard to get a handle on him. First he was a pitcher, and, according to baseball-reference.com, the most similar guy to him in that capacity is HOFer Addie Joss. He hurt his arm, so he moved to shortstop, and the most similar player to him there is a darned good, though not great, player in Bobby Lowe. Put the value of Bobby Lowe on top of Addie Joss, though, and that is definitely a HOF quality player.

In Black Ink, he has 8 as a hitter, 22 as a pitcher when 27 and 40 respectively are average for HOFers. In Gray Ink, he has 92 as a hitter and 142 as a pitcher when 144 and 185 respectively are average for HOFers. In HOF standards, he gets 28 as a hitter and 43 as a pitcher, when 50 is the mark for an average HOFer. He doesn't make the mark of an average HOFer in either capacity, but you combine those two unique pieces of his career, and it's hard to deny he was a great one. (Source for the above: baseball-reference.com). I don't have his exact career Win Shares total at hand, but it is over 400, which is a very high total, well within the realm of Hall of Famers.

[jalbright]

Lastly, Orator Jim O'Rourke

Jim O'Rourke ELECTED BBF HOF

According to baseball-reference.com, he has a great number of positives behind his case:

In the top five in average five times
Led the league in on base percentage twice
In the top five in runs scored eight times
In the top five in runs created eight times
Had 25 Black Ink points against the average mark of 27 for an average HOF batter
Had 288 Gray Ink points agains the average mark of 144 for an average HOF batter.

To that we can add that he has been named as a Hall of Famer by Cooperstown, the Baseball Think Factory folks, and our own Timeline participants. He was good in 1871-75, at +2.2 TPR/162 games for 3.81 whole seasons, but that was just getting warmed up for his career after 1876, when he averaged 27.85 win shares/162 games for 16.85 whole seasons. That's averaging top All-Star quality of play for nearly 17 seasons! If that isn't HOF quality, I don't know what is.

Even without accounting for the shorter seasons of his day, seven of the ten players most similar to O'Rourke according to baseball-reference.com are in Cooperstown.

[Babe is the best]

1. Ed Delahanty
2. Dan Brouthers
3. Cap Anson
4. Roger Connor
5. Billy Hamilton
6. Sam Crawford
7. Kid Nichols
8. Eddie Plank
9. Jesse Burkett
10. Smoky Joe Williams
11. Buck Ewing
12. King Kelly

1. Harry Wright
2. Henry Chadwick
3. John McGraw
4. Rube Foster
5. Ban Johnson

[jalbright]

There are no new contributors to add in 1938, and the new players will be:


Grimes , Burleigh
Haines , Jesse
Kerr , Dickie
Kremer , Ray
Moore , Dobie
Pipp , Wally
Roush , Edd
Sisler , George
Torriente , Cristobal


Torriente is the only one I will be voting for in the 1938 election, though at least Grimes, Moore, Roush and Sisler will eventually draw significant support.

[jalbright]

I know Alexander Cartwright has received strong support in the contributor voting. It looks like one of my top five will be elected, so I'll need a replacement. I didn't know much about Cartwright, but I figured if he's getting such strong support, he deserves a look. I did this fully expecting to find reasons to vote for him. What I found was reason to question whether I will ever support his candidacy. I started with a Google search, and quickly came upon an article questioning his involvement with the founding of the game. I dug a little deeper, and came up with the SABR Bio-Project biography on him (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&pid=2205&bid=727), which to my reading, comes down more in the camp of the doubters. I'm open to responses to this well-researched article, but as it stands, I do not intend to ever support Alexander Cartwright. Furthermore, I suggest folks look at this biography to see for themselves whether they think he deserves their support.

[jjpm74]

I'd like to hear more on why Torriente would rank so high for you if you get a chance. I know his case and it is a strong one but at this point, I'm on the fence as to whether or not he will make my ballot for 1938.

[jalbright]

Henry Chadwick

I had checked out Chadwick as well, and added him to my ballot this month, in part because he was covered in The Numbers Game by Alan Schwarz, which I have read. He seemed significant enough to merit a vote. Here's a link to his bio at Baseball Reference bullpen (http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Henry_Chadwick). I might not have chosen him this high based on that bio, but he's worth a vote, so I'll go with the flow to that extent.

[jalbright]

I'd like to hear more on why Torriente would rank so high for you if you get a chance. I know his case and it is a strong one but at this point, I'm on the fence as to whether or not he will make my ballot for 1938.

Did you see post 42 in this thread? If you have specific questions, I can try and answer them. If not, I don't know whether I'll have the time before next week to add a great deal more. I will see what there is elsewhere on the site, though.

[jjpm74]

Did you see post 42 in this thread? If you have specific questions, I can try and answer them. If not, I don't know whether I'll have the time before next week to add a great deal more. I will see what there is elsewhere on the site, though.

I did.

When we were doing the SOC, I found the ML comps you did very useful. I don't know how much work that would be, but I found it extremely helpful when trying to get a better handle on where the NeLers rank vs. their MLB counterparts.

Particularly when also looking at what you already provided in post 42.

[jalbright]

http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=1326608&highlight=cristobal+torriente#post1326608

In the link above, the Hall of Merit has him 9th all time among CF, but of the currently eligible, only Billy Hamilton is ahead of him at #8.

It was very hard to find a major league comp for Torriente. I didn't find a centerfielder, much less an excellent one like him. Instead, the best I could do was a LF/CF in Heinie Manush. It's not a top-notch comp, given the different eras, the differences in defensive quality and in durability.. Manush played in a time with much more offense, but in the most defense-friendly park in the league. Moreover, Torriente's projected to have nearly 1000 more PA. Even so, Manush plus 2 years plus the added defensive value of a top-notch CF instead of that of a LF-CF should at least give a hint of why Torriente is so well regarded (not to mention that overall IMO, Torriente played in circumstances where each individual run meant more to winning than in Manush's circumstances).

[Paul Wendt]

Let me again recommend
John Thorn, Four Fathers of Baseball (http://thornpricks.blogspot.com/2005/07/four-fathers-of-baseball.html)
(and his SABR biography of Doc Adams too)

[jjpm74]

I guess Cartwright gets replaced by Doc Adams. Please note the change to my ballot. Cartwright has been removed and replaced by Doc Adams. Nothing else changed in the rankings.

[Erik Bedard]

Players:

1. Smokey Joe Williams
2. Kid Nichols
3. Dan Brouthers
4. Cap Anson
5. Sam Crawford
6. Buck Ewing
7. King Kelly
8. Ed Delahanty
9. Frank Baker
10. George Davis
11. Roger Connor
12. Billy Hamilton

Contributors:

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. John McGraw
3. William Hulbert
4. Henry Chadwick
5. Rube Foster

[jalbright]

I guess Cartwright gets replaced by Doc Adams. Please note the change to my ballot. Cartwright has been removed and replaced by Doc Adams. Nothing else changed in the rankings.

The change will be made.

[jalbright]

When we were doing the SOC, I found the ML comps you did very useful. I don't know how much work that would be, but I found it extremely helpful when trying to get a better handle on where the NeLers rank vs. their MLB counterparts.

FWIW, I have the SOC comps and most of the Negro League HOFers collected on these two pages in my musings thread, page 15 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=32451&page=15) and page 16 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=32451&page=16), posts 367 to 377

[jalbright]

A final reminder: we're within a day and a half of the end of the 1937 election.

[AG2004]

My 1937 rankings:

PLAYERS
1) Kid Nichols
2) Smokey Joe Williams
3) Sam Crawford
4) Ed Delahanty
5) Dan Brouthers
6) Buck Ewing
7) Cap Anson
8) Jim O'Rourke
9) Billy Hamilton
10) Paul Hines
11) Frank Baker
12) Roger Connor

CONTRIBUTORS
1) Rube Foster
2) John McGraw
3) Doc Adams
4) Harry Wright
5) Henry Chadwick

----

The following is from the 1938 New York Panorama , written by members of the WPA's Federal Writers' Project. I thought I'd post it here, since it mentions the 1937 World Series.


The Yankees are a well-mannered group of business men, highest paid on a team average the game has known. . . . They have a great farm system, and can outbid any club in sight for new talent. Some New York sports writers, after the 1937 nickel series (that's carfare, not gate receipts), seriously suggested that the Yanks were too good for the present major leagues, and that their proficiency, if carried out on so high a plane much longer, would lessen interest in the game. That hasn't happened yet, evidently. People still go to ball games.


The more things change . . .

Still, the writers could be sarcastic at times.


The Giants are gentlemen off and on. One of the greatest defensive combinations ever, they defend themselves at one and the same time from hot grounders, internecine strife and public vilification. Giant players never look on the flowing bowl, and are respected by one and all. Even the Yankees respect them.

[jalbright]

The election is closed. We had 21 voters in the player election, and elected Dan Brouthers, Cap Anson, Kid Nichols, Smoky Joe Williams, and Sam Crawford. The complete results are:


Player..... votes points
Brouthers , Dan 21 193
Anson , Cap 20 187
Nichols , Kid 20 165
Williams , Joe 18 165
Crawford , Sam 19 150
Delahanty , Ed 19 138
Ewing , Buck 17 123
Connor , Roger 17 92
Baker , Frank 17 70
Plank , Eddie 9 44
Hamilton , Bil 10 41
Brown , Mor 7 40
Keefe , Tim 6 31
Kelly , King 9 24
O'Rourke , Jim 7 23
Wright , George 3 23
Davis , George 5 19
Clarkson , J 4 18
Barnes , Ross 3 15
Santop , Louis 2 10
Galvin , Pud 1 9
Jackson , Joe 2 9
Burkett , Jesse 2 8
Walsh , Ed 2 7
Hines , Paul 2 6
Bennett , Char 1 5
Sutton , Ezra 1 5
White , Deacon 1 5
Grant , Frank 1 4
Start , Joe 1 3
Collins , Jimmy 2 2
Dahlen , Bill 1 2
Ward , John M. 2 2


I'm including the number of people voting for a candidate so folks can judge the strength of candidates for future elections (the more folks already voting for him, the more likely he is to rise quickly)

The contributor election was rather close among the 17 votes cast. We elected Henry Chadwick. The entire results follow:


Player...............votes......points
Chadwick , Harry 16 51
McGraw , John..... 13 48
Wright , Harry...... 15 40
Cartwright , Alexander 8 34
Foster , Rube..... 14 34
Adams , Doc....... 5 17
Hulbert , William.... 6 12
Creighton , Jim..... 3 9
Spalding , Al....... 2 5
Johnson , Ban..... 2 3
Landis , Kenesaw 1 2