Veterans Committee Results - Joe Gordon

[DoubleX]

Surprised not to see a thread here yet, but it seems that Joe Gordon was the only player elected by either Veterans Committee this year. I'm glad to see the VC finally elect another player, and I think Gordon is a very deserving player (particularly with his lesser contemporary Bobby Doerr on the actual committee), but I'm very puzzled how Ron Santo continues to be left out, and how the VC couldn't reach out to at least Bill Dahlen and Deacon White, and to a slightly lesser extent, Sherry Magee. My guess is that these guys played to long ago to merit fair consideration by the VC.

[Cougar]

Gordon was arguably the most deserving player on the oldest-timers ballot (some might argue for Dahlen, Magee, Vernon, Mays, or Ferrell). Hence, despite the fact that it would have been nice to get more than one off this ballot, the pre-1943 committee (of historians, scholars, and wise men) did a fairly commendable job.

The post-1942 committee of living Hall of Famers again failed to pick anyone. This continues their execrable record of barring the door, and reiterates the folly of having an electorate in this position with no real means to deliberate and a vested interest in keeping their membership exclusive. Appalling.

[parlo]

Former 2b and MVP winner Joe Gordon was elected to the Hall of Fame today.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/sports/AP-BBO-Hall-of-Fame.html?_r=1

[Paul Wendt]

Surprised not to see a thread here yet, but it seems that Joe Gordon was the only player elected by either Veterans Committee this year.
We don't need multiple new threads to discuss the new veterans committee process, the new committee membership, etc. So I will limit scope of my own comments.

I'm glad to see the VC finally elect another player, and I think Gordon is a very deserving player (particularly with his lesser contemporary Bobby Doerr on the actual committee)
I feel certain that Bobby Doerr has been voting for Joe Gordon all along. The new process gives him a voice, he may speak to the other voters as part of the process, for as long as he is willing and able. My guess is, like Ted Williams, he will be willing as long as he is able.


Gordon was arguably the most deserving player on the oldest-timers ballot (some might argue for Dahlen, Magee, Vernon, Mays, or Ferrell).
Some would argue for White. We can see that in the results at the Hall of Merit election where White finished second to Dahlen, who was not unanimous. (close second, with no close third)

Some would argue for Reynolds (henrich?) or Walters (Billy Werber?). The results suggest but don't prove that Reynolds was the first choice of some cmte members

Some would argue for Stephens, I'll bet, although I don't know who would do it.

Hence, despite the fact that it would have been nice to get more than one off this ballot, the pre-1943 committee (of historians, scholars, and wise men) did a fairly commendable job.

They have only four votes each, with more than four appealing candidates. The good judgment and good policy required to elect someone, not to mention two, should come rather easily to so small a group that actually does convene. Thank heaven and the leadership that they got one. Unless the Board moves a Gil Hodges or a Minnie Minoso into the jurisdiction, it will be easier next time. Some people would argue that a Bob Caruthers on the one hand or a Lefty O'Doul on the other hand would be the most deserving player on the ballot, but I feel sure that the replacement of Gordon, at least, will weaken the ballot from the perspective of the cmte's actual membership.

[parlo]

Here is a story on Gordons election.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/sports/AP-BBO-Hall-of-Fame.html?_r=1

[KCGHOST]

Just another botched effort by the VC (well in this case VC's). Gordon is an okay electee but he wasn't the best available (Dahlen or White).

[Cowtipper]

Deacon White, snubbed. What an egregious omission.

[philkid3]

Per ESPN:
Ron Santo fell well short of the 75 percent needed for election to Cooperstown.

The Veteran's Committee is an organization made of fail and also fail.

[DoubleX]

I definitely think the VC dropped the ball again. Gordon being the only one is not surprising given the makeup of the committees. First, with the post-1943 VC, we've lamented on here for years now how flawed the current process is. Whomever said it has shifted from cronyism to elitism is exactly right. Santo's omission is completely egregious.

As for the pre-1943 selections, while I think Dahlen and White were arguably more deserving, and Magee a good candidate as well, history may have overly obscured them. With Gordon, there are still some who remember him and can vouch for him, such as Bobby Doerr. In that same vein, it's not surprising that Allie Reynolds came within a vote of election, even though he may arguably be the worse candidate on the pre-1943 ballot. So Gordon may have been saved from the precipice of obscurity, but for the likes of Dahlen, White, and Magee, it may be too late.

[Cougar]

Mods -- Please, please merge these threads!!

[Mattingly]

Moving to the HoF forum.

[J W]

...and merged.

Congrats to Joe Gordon, a deserving HOFer in my mind.

[Paul Wendt]

Here I am quoting only from the "December 8" thread (initiated this weekend), not from this thread.

In the other category concerning the more distant past , I don't understand the Pro-Yankees bias. The top two vote getters spent the majority of their careers with the Yankees.
The #1 vote getter, Joe Gordon got elected and the #2 vote getter Allie Reynolds missed election by one vote.
quoting the Transactions log via Allie Reynolds at baseball-reference (http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/reynoal01.shtml):
October 11, 1946: Traded by the Cleveland Indians to the New York Yankees for Joe Gordon.

Note, Gordon and Reynolds are two of the four younger candidate on the ballot. Jointly they won about 24 votes from the 12-man committee where the six older candidates won only about 20 votes.

votes, debut
:10, 1938, Joe Gordon
: 5, 1939, Mickey Vernon
~1, 1941, Vern Stephens (fewer than three votes)
: 8, 1942 Allie Reynolds

Note, all four of the younger candidates played in the American League.
So did two of the three pitchers who come next by age: Bucky Walters debut 1931 (NL), Wes Ferrell 1927, Carl Mays 1915.

Ugh. They were one vote away from inducting Allie Reynolds of all people. I guess we know how many SABR-metrically undisciplined people are on the committee. :evil

Results of the 2008 Pre-1943 Players Ballot (nine votes needed for election): Gordon (10 votes, 83.3 percent), Allie Reynolds (eight, 66.7 percent), Wes Ferrell (six, 50.0 percent), Mickey Vernon (five, 41.7 percent), Deacon White (five, 41.7 percent), Bucky Walters (4, 33.3 percent), Sherry Magee (three, 25.0 percent), Bill Dahlen, Carl Mays and Vern Stephens (fewer than three).
If I clerk correctly, that is
41 to 47 votes cast, among 48 votes permitted; on average 3.4 to 3.9 out of 4 votes permitted
: sum 41 reported votes for the seven leading candidates plus 0 to 6 votes for the three three also-ran candidates
Right?

That shows the 4-vote limit to be severely binding. At least five members of the committee cast all four votes, and maybe so many as eleven. Considering the reported results for twelve voters and seven of the ten candidates, 10 8 6 5 5 4 3, it seems to me that the number of constrained voters was close to eleven and far from five. (When was the last time you saw three zeroes in a place like that? My point estimate is 45 votes cast because 2 1 1 is the "best looking" end to that series.)

Although the constraint was severe, we cannot be sure that it affected the bottom line outcome, the election of Gordon alone for 2009. This committee convened, and presumably discussed the candidates to the point where everyone recognized that Allie Reynolds was close to election --supported more strongly than Walters, Magee, and the three also-rans, for example. So it is plausible that the four nays on Allie Reynolds were cast by four people who do mean No..

[Paul Wendt]

Here I am quoting only from the "December 8" thread (initiated this weekend), not from this thread.

In the other category concerning the more distant past , I don't understand the Pro-Yankees bias. The top two vote getters spent the majority of their careers with the Yankees.
The #1 vote getter, Joe Gordon got elected and the #2 vote getter Allie Reynolds missed election by one vote.
quoting the Transactions log via Allie Reynolds at baseball-reference (http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/reynoal01.shtml):
October 11, 1946: Traded by the Cleveland Indians to the New York Yankees for Joe Gordon.

Note, Gordon and Reynolds are two of the four younger candidate on the ballot. Jointly they won about 24 votes from the 12-man committee where the six older candidates won only about 20 votes.

votes, debut
:10, 1938, Joe Gordon
: 5, 1939, Mickey Vernon
~1, 1941, Vern Stephens (fewer than three votes)
: 8, 1942 Allie Reynolds

Note, all four of the younger candidates played in the American League.
So did two of the three pitchers who come next by age: Bucky Walters debut 1931 (NL), Wes Ferrell 1927, Carl Mays 1915.

Ugh. They were one vote away from inducting Allie Reynolds of all people. I guess we know how many SABR-metrically undisciplined people are on the committee. :evil

Results of the 2008 Pre-1943 Players Ballot (nine votes needed for election): Gordon (10 votes, 83.3 percent), Allie Reynolds (eight, 66.7 percent), Wes Ferrell (six, 50.0 percent), Mickey Vernon (five, 41.7 percent), Deacon White (five, 41.7 percent), Bucky Walters (4, 33.3 percent), Sherry Magee (three, 25.0 percent), Bill Dahlen, Carl Mays and Vern Stephens (fewer than three).
If I add correctly, that is
41 to 47 votes cast, among 48 votes permitted
: sum 41 reported votes for the seven leading candidates plus 0 to 6 votes for the three three also-ran candidates
Right?

That shows the 4-vote limit to be severely binding. At least five members of the committee cast all four votes, and maybe so many as eleven. Considering the reported results for twelve voters and seven of the ten candidates, 10 8 6 5 5 4 3, it seems to me that the number of constrained voters was close to eleven and far from five. (When was the last time you saw three zeroes in a place like that?)

Although the constraint was severe, we cannot be sure that it affected the bottom line outcome, the election of Gordon alone for 2009. This committee convened, and presumably discussed the candidates to the point where everyone recognized that Allie Reynolds was close to election --supported more strongly than Walters, Magee, and the three also-rans, for example. So it is plausible that the four nays on Allie Reynolds were cast by four people who do mean No..

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

Did they release the results of the percentage of vote each player received??
I wonder how Vern Stephens did?

[henrich]

We don't need multiple new threads to discuss the new veterans committee process, the new committee membership, etc. So I will limit scope of my own comments.


I feel certain that Bobby Doerr has been voting for Joe Gordon all along. The new process gives him a voice, he may speak to the other voters as part of the process, for as long as he is willing and able. My guess is, like Ted Williams, he will be willing as long as he is able.



Some would argue for White. We can see that in the results at the Hall of Merit election where White finished second to Dahlen, who was not unanimous. (close second, with no close third)

Some would argue for Reynolds (henrich?) or Walters (Billy Werber?). The results suggest but don't prove that Reynolds was the first choice of some cmte members

Some would argue for Stephens, I'll bet, although I don't know who would do it.



They have only four votes each, with more than four appealing candidates. The good judgment and good policy required to elect someone, not to mention two, should come rather easily to so small a group that actually does convene. Thank heaven and the leadership that they got one. Unless the Board moves a Gil Hodges or a Minnie Minoso into the jurisdiction, it will be easier next time. Some people would argue that a Bob Caruthers on the one hand or a Lefty O'Doul on the other hand would be the most deserving player on the ballot, but I feel sure that the replacement of Gordon, at least, will weaken the ballot from the perspective of the cmte's actual membership.

Reynolds would have been great, but Gordon is one of the four oversights that I speak of with 10,000 points in the H-Factor that played prior to the age of the DH. Gordon, Willie Davis, Gil Hodges and Boog powell. This helps my position here at least from the years 1900-1973.

[DoubleX]

Like I said above, it's not surprising that Gordon was elected and Reynolds came just 1 vote away. There are still people who can remember Gordon and Reynolds, and both are helped by being big parts of high profile Yankee dynasties (this probably helps Reynolds more than Gordon). Obscurity due to time has probably shaded the careers of guys like White, Dahlen, and Magee so much, that they probably can't get a fair shake in this process.

I will say though that had Reynolds been elected, that may have thrown the process into even more question than the failure to elect Santo by the post-1943 committee. Reynolds was a nice pitcher, but I just can't see a Hall of Fame case here, or anything that close really. That would strike me as the type of questionable, cronyistic type pick that the VC was previously known for.

[Cougar]

I will say though that had Reynolds been elected, that may have thrown the process into even more question than the failure to elect Santo by the post-1943 committee. Reynolds was a nice pitcher, but I just can't see a Hall of Fame case here, or anything that close really. That would strike me as the type of questionable, cronyistic type pick that the VC was previously known for.

Let's put it this way...it would be at least as worrisome, if not more so, as the selection of Mazeroski that resulted in the scrapping of the old blue-ribbon-committee system and the inauguration of the balloting by living HOFers.

Speaking for myself, I think Reynolds would be a much worse choice for the HOF than Mazeroski. There are easily 20 eligible pitchers I would support before Reynolds. Not that Reynolds would be the worst pitcher in the Hall...but I think he might be in the discussion.

[DoubleX]

Let's put it this way...it would be at least as worrisome, if not more so, as the selection of Mazeroski that resulted in the scrapping of the old blue-ribbon-committee system and the inauguration of the balloting by living HOFers.

Speaking for myself, I think Reynolds would be a much worse choice for the HOF than Mazeroski. There are easily 20 eligible pitchers I would support before Reynolds. Not that Reynolds would be the worst pitcher in the Hall...but I think he might be in the discussion.

I definitely think Reynolds would have been a worse selection than Mazeroski. Mazeroski at least has the argument that he may be the greatest defensive 2Bman of all time and I do rank him in my top 30 at his position. I wouldn't have put Mazeroski in, but he's not as far on the outside as Reynolds is for me.