Bob Caruthers

[Tyrus4189Cobb]

Should he go in? The very versatile Caruthers has been on my mind. After picking him in an all-time draft I feel the need ask BBF if he is a worhty HoFer.

Basic stats as a pitcher:

W-L%--Wins--Losses---IP------K------ERA-----ERA+----WHIP
.688----218---99---2828.7---900---2.83---------123-------1.158

Basic stats as an outfielder:

AB----Runs----Hits----HR---RBI---AVG---OBP---SLG---OPS+---SB
2465----508----695 ---29---359---.282---.391----.400---133---152


There is certainly other things to consider. But what do you think?

[SABR Matt]

Yes...Caruthers is a HOFer in my book. Even though I'm not a fan of 19th century pitchers by in large, Caruthers certainly has the credentials to be worthy of consideration. And not primarily for his pitching!
Yr Lg Off Def Pit O-M D-M P-M Wins
1886 AA 8.55 1.21 11.16 14.7 1.6 17.1 20.92
1887 AA 8.45 1.65 9.72 14.1 2.1 14.8 19.82
1888 AA 3.18 1.86 7.47 3.9 2.5 9.7 12.51
1889 AA 2.68 0.99 7.77 4.0 1.6 9.5 11.44
1885 AA 1.90 0.77 7.02 2.3 1.1 7.5 9.69
1890 NL 3.29 0.85 4.40 4.7 1.1 4.8 8.54
1892 NL 6.90 0.34 -0.1 10.0 -1.2 -1.6 7.14
1891 NL 1.64 0.34 2.66 2.0 0.2 1.2 4.64
1884 AA 0.79 0.23 3.11 1.0 0.3 5.1 4.13
1893 NL 0.94 0.16 0.00 1.5 0.2 0.0 1.1

Granted, the AA was of questionable depth when he was doing it, but he was a HECK of a hitter by pitching standards...and he did have at least one good hitting season in the much tougher 1890s NL. Not that his pitching record is anything to sneeze at...that peak is perhaps not quite HOF worthy all by itself, but it's certainly quite good. Also note...he was a good fielder too. Routinely well above average for his day and he won two PCA-GGs for pitching defense.

An all around star and a solid hall candidate.

[hubkittel]

he was a HECK of a hitter by pitching standards...

He was a heck of a hitter by just about any standard. It's arguable that he was the best hitter in the AA in 1886 and certainly was one of the best hitters in the league in 86 and 87. The interesting thing about Caruthers (and teammate Dave Foutz as well) is that he was, from 86-88, an everyday player who just happened to get 40 starts on the mound. He actually had more starts at OF/1B/2B each season during those years than he had starts as a pitcher. It's almost wrong to think of Caruthers as a pitcher who could hit when he was just a flat out great baseball player who could do anything. The guy even had a season where he stole 49 bases.

Caruthers is just a unique player and it's not some quirk of the 19th century game. Certainly, players who both pitched and played the field were commonplace but how many guys (after 1875) were able to lead a league in OPS and ERA? Off the top of my head, the only two I know of are Caruthers and Ruth.

[STLCards2]

An easy HOF choice as a total player. How to rank him as a pitcher is a much harder case, factoring in the information Matt shared. League Quality, how much of his offense came as a pitcher vs. as a positioned player, etc. Lots to think about.

[SABR Matt]

Even though he was fielding other positions a lot, he rated as an above average total fielder. What does that tell you? :) He was a good fielder at just about any position he tried, he was a good hitter when he was getting regular playing time, and he was a good pitcher in his prime. He and Foutz both move WAAAYY up in the pitcher rankings when I include things that are not pitching in there. Caruthers actually gets into the 30s all time if you include his batting and fielding and Foutz, who was never a particularly great pitcher, get sinto the top 150.

[SABR Matt]

Here's Foutz' career BTW:
Yr Lg Off Def Pit O-M D-M P-M Wins
1886 AA 2.28 1.81 12.29 1.9 2.5 17.8 16.38
1888 AA 5.11 2.30 3.34 6.5 3.0 4.3 10.75
1890 NL 8.31 1.91 0.48 13.0 2.5 0.6 10.7
1887 AA 3.82 1.59 4.40 4.8 2.0 4.1 9.81
1889 AA 6.71 2.30 0.25 9.5 3.2 -0.4 9.26
1885 AA 1.83 1.13 5.58 2.1 1.6 5.7 8.54
1891 NL 4.13 2.11 1.09 4.7 2.8 1.5 7.33
1884 AA 0.37 0.36 4.31 0.0 0.5 5.9 5.04
1893 NL 2.64 1.36 -0.17 1.6 1.2 -0.6 3.83
1892 NL 0.16 0.85 1.95 -1.2 1.2 1.1 2.96
1894 NL 1.42 0.65 0.00 0.9 0.6 0.0 2.07

One great pitching season, a consistent line of well above average fielding seasons at various positions, and several solid batting seasons. Man...that team must have been fun to watch...how many teams can you think of that could get away with batting the pitcher 3rd? :)

[Buzzaldrin]

And he had five straight seasons of 45+ win shares. No one, I mean no one else has ever done that (though Wagner came really close). That says a heck of a lot right there.

[Paul Wendt]

Should he go in? The very versatile Caruthers has been on my mind. After picking him in an all-time draft I feel the need ask BBF if he is a worthy HoFer.
Yes, but you should be happy to have him in the all-time draft anyway!

Especially if the all-time draft credits him as a versatile player, such as a competent secondbaseman.
First, secondbase was not the crucial fielding position in 1892 that it is today; second, he played only nine games there so the record is skimpy. But some all-time leagues (is that the purpose of the draft) may permit him to play 2B every day.

Six of his 9 career games at secondbase were in 1892, when he played 122 games in the outfield and 16 on the mound. Despite merely 100 innings his career ERA+ drops from 128 to 123! as calculated by BaseBall-Reference. (There is some disagreement about appropriate career calculations, and there are rounding errors in those integers.)

So it is one of the quirks of fantasy baseball that he may be simulated as an excellent pitcher, perhaps A- based on his prime seasons, whom you are permitted also to use freely at second.

There is certainly other things to consider. But what do you think?
He should be in the Hall of Fame.
He has not fared well with the Cooperstown committees, but better than so many others.

The versatility is impressive (batting and outfield) or merely a fantasy opportunity (second). But the most important other thing to consider is his World Series record. It's very good, especially the 14 games for St Louis 1885-87, from his peak "regular seasons".

(Mid-season 1890 he was essentially replaced as a pitcher, at 19-8 in July, and he did not pitch in the world series that year.)

[Fuzzy Bear]

I would like to know why his career took a sudden nosedive.

I'd vote "yes", based on the total package, but I wonder why he faded, seemingly, all at once.

[Tyrus4189Cobb]

I would like to know why his career took a sudden nosedive.

I'd vote "yes", based on the total package, but I wonder why he faded, seemingly, all at once.

It may have been the increase in the distance from the mound to home. Prior to 1893 it was only 50 feet. It was increased during Caruther's final year. That may have been the factor forcing retirement.

But his decline started in 1891. Maybe it was the time period. He died when he was only 47. Mayeb he had an ailment which couldn't be helped, so he played through it. Other than that I don't know any exact explanation.

[Paul Wendt]

He was done as a pitcher before 1893.

He was essentially replaced as a pitcher during July 1890, at W-L 19-8. The bold facts are from the short SABR biography of Caruthers by Bob Tiemann & Bob Davids, in 19c Stars (1989). My observation is that he did not pitch at all in the world series. On the other hand he pitched 300 innings in 1891 (when a star pitcher worked more than 300 innings).

He was an umpire in the major leagues and in Chicago around 1900, not disabled.

Tiemann and Davids note that he was muscular, fast, and 5'7" 140.

He was one of the first mlb players raised in the South, Memphis, but his family moved to Chicago when he was in his teens. Sorry I can't be more precise.

He was nicknamed Parisian Bob while negotiating for a great salary from Paris France, on vacation with (battery mate?) Doc Bushong.

IIRC he was from a well-to-do family. What they would call middle class in USA today. In other words I wouldn't be surprised if his parents visited Paris France.

[Buzzaldrin]

Caruthers had a normal career for a star pitcher of his days- five years of 350-500 innings did most people's arms in; he was no exception. And Bob was, as pointed out, not the biggest guy in the world. I firmly believe the 1889 season did him in. He began the year 24-4 (same as Gooden ended up in '85) but five years of toil just burned him out. He still finished at 40-11, but I think his five year workload 85-90 ruined him. I also think his 91 season is misleading at 297 innings- that was only good for 14th most in the league (in an eight team league); a number two or three starter. He was pitching on brains alone by then.

After the delivery changes of '84, there were only one or two guys like Clarkson and Keefe who could handle that workload more than a few years- look at promising arms like Sadie MacMahon, Matty Kilroy, and Icebox Chamberlain; you can see their decline each year from the workload. Von der Ahe believed a pitcher had a shelf life of three years- he was right about Foutz and wrong about Caruthers. But that five year peak was magic.

[Cowtipper]

No...he didn't play ten years, nor did he have an inconvenient death. Sorry Bob.

[Gee Walker]

No...he didn't play ten years, nor did he have an inconvenient death. Sorry Bob.

He did play for ten years - only pitched for nine. And he only lived to be 47 years old...

[Cowtipper]

He did play for ten years - only pitched for nine. And he only lived to be 47 years old...

You are correct. Boy am I stupid...I guess my vote should be changed to "yes".

[Paul Wendt]

Did Bob Caruthers fare relatively well with some of the veterans committees?
Yes, relatively well, although poorly.

I was thinking from memory that he was one of the earliest players nominated by the Historical Overview Committee for consideration 2003 to 2007. True, but not so true as I half-recalled. Caruthers debuted in 1884 and three were six older players among 200 nominated for 2007.
: Will White, Jack Glasscock, Harry Stovey. Tony Mullane, Charlie Buffinton, Pete Browning

Glasscock, Stovey and Browning were in the consideration set during the 1990s if not earlier but two or three of the pitchers were newcomers. With Caruthers, debut 1884, that makes four pitchers who were not high on 1990s lists, whom the HOC maybe brought to the fore with the help of its correspondents and various lists of leaders.
(Does the Win Shares system get part of the blame? It does yield many lists dominated by early pitchers.)

So it may be a little surprising that Caruthers was not among the ten pre-1943 players nominated for consideration this weekend. The much older Deacon White "came from nowhere" in that he was not even among the 200 nominees. (His brother Will White was the HOC's eldest of 200 nominees for all three recent cycles.)

--
On a below question about the 1940s:

No, the special committees of that decade were not influenced by the 9yr/10yr issue regarding Bob Caruthers, the 9yr-pitcher and 10yr-player. I'm sure that no diversion was necessary.

First, they were not bound by many rules (unless that happened late in the decade). Second, their main concern was younger old-timers, players from the 1890s and 1900s who still enjoyed a contituency --presumably generated the complaining letters to newspaper editors and to Cooperstown, and would have generated some visitors to Cooperstown. Third, actually their main concern may have been the backlog itself. Too many strong candidates clogged the BBWAA ballot. By picking off scads of earlier ones, not chiefly 19th century but turn of century, they also freed BBWAA votes to begin electing players from the 1920s-30s in steady numbers.

In 1945 and 1946 the now-socalled Veterans Committee elected 21 players, ten in 1945 and eleven more in 1946. Only three of ten elected in 1945 were stars in the 1880s: Jim O'Rourke, Mike Kelly, Dan Brouthers. Duffy and Delahanty debuted in 1888. None of the 1946 eleven were stars in the 1880s except perhaps Tommy McCarthy 1888-89 when Bob Caruthers was already gone to Brooklyn. McCarthy 1884 was the only pre-1890 debut and there were only three of 11 debuts before Rube Waddell 1897!

[Cowtipper]

Just so the powers that be can see it...

I guess my vote should be changed to "yes".

For some reason I had stupidly forgotten that he'd played more than ten years in baseball. That's why I voted no...because I thought he played only nine years.

[Tyrus4189Cobb]

For some reason I had stupidly forgotten that he'd played more than ten years in baseball. That's why I voted no...because I thought he played only nine years.

Actually, you can be elected without the ten years, especially if you played ball during the 19th century. Look at Addie Joss.

[Cowtipper]

Actually, you can be elected without the ten years, especially if you played ball during the 19th century. Look at Addie Joss.
The rules of the Hall of Fame do not permit a player to be elected if they don't play ten years. Joss was one single exception made by the Veteran's Committee, in part because he had an inconvenient death. Joss, by the way, was a 20th century player.

[SABR Matt]

Take it easy guys...Cowtipper made what is obviously an honest mistake...not the end of the world.

And he's right...unless there are severe extenuating circumstances, a player is not eligible for the HOF if he did not manage 10 years of service.

[Dalkowski110]

Parisian Bob was not merely a hell of a pitcher; he was a hell of a player. He was also VERY highly regarded in his own era. I often wonder if he didn't get in with the 1940's Old Timers' Committees because they may have thought he only played nine seasons. He had a very brief cup of coffee as a hitter in 1893, though, thus allowing him to qualify. You think it's possible they forgot about that brief showing in those pre-Baseball Encyclopedia days? Or perhaps they thought he needed ten full seasons (it's not until 1972 that a player with fewer than ten full seasons goes into the Hall in Ross Youngs)?

[hubkittel]

Tiemann and Davids note that he was muscular, fast, and 5'7" 140.

He was one of the first mlb players raised in the South, Memphis, but his family moved to Chicago when he was in his teens. Sorry I can't be more precise.

He was nicknamed Parisian Bob while negotiating for a great salary from Paris France, on vacation with (battery mate?) Doc Bushong.

I have a source that has Caruthers listed as 5'10 1/2" and 152 which would mean that he wasn't a small guy but just skinny. He was described as a "slender and delicate" youth and his father encouraged his ball playing, believing it would have a positive effect on his health. There were many who believed, during his playing days, that Caruthers suffered from some kind of heart or lung disease and, if true, this would help explain his short career.

The family moved to Chicago in 1876. His father was a lawyer and judge in Tennessee and his maternal grandfather (who was from Kentucky) had invested heavily in Chicago real estate. Caruther's mother inherited her father's investments and I assume the family moved to Chicago to manage it. The family was relatively wealthy and had some social status in both Tennessee and Chicago.

As to the Paris trip, there is some evidence that suggests it never happened. Bushong, who Caruthers said was in Paris with him, never corroborated the story. Somebody supposedly checked passenger manifests and was unable to confirm that Caruthers ever left the country or was on a ship that arrived in the United States from Europe. It's very possible that the whole thing was a bluff.

[Buzzaldrin]

As to the Paris trip, there is some evidence that suggests it never happened. Bushong, who Caruthers said was in Paris with him, never corroborated the story. Somebody supposedly checked passenger manifests and was unable to confirm that Caruthers ever left the country or was on a ship that arrived in the United States from Europe. It's very possible that the whole thing was a bluff.

True. Bushong was there working on his dentistry (hence, his nickname Doc). Caruthers may very well have simply bluffed Von der Ahe for more money and stayed in the states. Considering he'd just gone 40-13 with a 2.07 ERA in his first full season, it turned out to be clever. At $5,000 a season, Caruthers became the highest paid star in the AA and a national hero (especially after the '86 series and his heroics therein).

[Buzzaldrin]

(it's not until 1972 that a player with fewer than ten full seasons goes into the Hall in Ross Youngs)?

If a full season is 400 AB or 150 IP- here's some players who don't have ten but are in the HOF (elected as players, not managers or pioneers):

Hughie Jennings 7
Roger Bresnahan 5
Ed Walsh 7
Joe McGinnity 9 (ten year career)
Tommy McCarthy 8
Jack Chesbro 9
Frank Chance 4 (six if you go down to 380)
Dizzy Dean 6
Gabby Hartnett 7 (it's 13 if you go down to 300- he was a catcher and doesn't really count here)
Frank Baker 9
Hank Greenberg 9
Jackie Robinson 7
Roy Campanella 6
Earle Combs 9
Lou Boudreau 9
Chick Hafey 6
Ross Youngs 8
Sandy Koufax 9
George Kelly 9
Ralph Kiner 9
Freddie Lindstrom 7
Amos Rusie 9
Addie Joss 8
Hack Wilson 6
Rick Ferrell 6 (again, it's 12 if you go to 300. Catcher)
Ernie Lombardi 4 (13 at 300. Catcher)

I didn't include the obvious Negro League guys like Doby or Page (which also lets Robinson and Campanella off the hook), and before 1884 seasons were too short for 400 AB, but what's really interesting is that guys that I think had short careers and woud make this list- like Flick, Thompson, or Averill- didn't.

I may have missed one or two, but I don't think so.

[SABR Matt]

That's not the rule...the rule is ten seasons of service time. If they even appeared in ten different seasons...they are eligible.

[Dalkowski110]

"That's not the rule...the rule is ten seasons of service time. If they even appeared in ten different seasons...they are eligible."

I know that. I think you misunderstood. I'm saying the guys in the 1940's may have passed him over for playing 14 games one season. The Hall was in its infancy then. Perhaps the voters on the Old Timers' Committee wanted or expected something approaching full seasons?

"If a full season is 400 AB or 150 IP-"

I was thinking more than 40 or 50 games in a season for a position player and more than 75 in one season for a pitcher. Also note that I said "until 1972." Addie Joss isn't inducted until 1976.

[SABR Matt]

Possibly...sorry I misunderstood what your main point was...I thought you were making a claim about the actual rule rather than what the voters may have interpreted as the rule.

[Buzzaldrin]

Also note that I said "until 1972." Addie Joss isn't inducted until 1976.

Yeah, but my point with the list-which was in chronological order- was that Jennings, Bresnahan, Walsh, McGinnity, etc. were elected in the 40s, and they had as few full seasons as Youngs and Joss.

And Flash Gordon had, what, nine seasons of 400+ AB? It really bothers me that he was elected. It bothers me that he won that MVP. It bothers me that you can play for only 11 years-with or without a war- never lead the league in anything other than strikeouts and grounded into double plays (during the season you beat a triple crown winner for MVP)- and still be conisdered an all-time great.

Sorry, had to get that out of my system.

[SABR Matt]

LOL

Well Gordon was an outstanding fielder...but I agree, he is way overrated.

[KCGHOST]

I said yes, but I am not real sure about. I will agree is was one of the two best hybrid players in history.

[Dalkowski110]

"Yeah, but my point with the list-which was in chronological order- was that Jennings, Bresnahan, Walsh, McGinnity, etc. were elected in the 40s"

True, but consider the following...

-Jennings was also highly regarded as a manager.
-Bresnahan, at the time, was widely considered to be an innovator.
-Walsh has ten seasons with 90+ IP.
-Joe McGinnity has ten with over 175 IP, plus is well regarded as a manager and pitcher in the high Minors.
-Tommy McCarthy had ten seasons of over 150 PA (and it's generally acknowledged he was only put in because Hugh Duffy was put in; possibly even as a favor to the still-living Duffy)
-Jack Chesbro has over 150 IP in 9 seasons...but misses 10 by only one inning in his rookie year.
-Frank Chance was almost certainly inducted as both a player and a manager.
-Dizzy Dean was inducted by the BBWAA, not the Old Timers' Committee or Veterans Committee.
-Hartnett, as you mentioned, was a catcher. But he was also inducted by the BBWAA.
-Frank Baker appears in 100 or more games 10 seasons.
-Greenberg is inducted by the BBWAA.
-Robinson is inducted by the BBWAA.
-Roy Campanella is inducted by the BBWAA.
-Earle Combs is the VC's first inductee to not play in at least 100 games in 10 seasons during the 20th century. This happens in 1970.

[Paul Wendt]

I have a source that has Caruthers listed as 5'10 1/2" and 152 which would mean that he wasn't a small guy but just skinny. He was described as a "slender and delicate" youth and his father encouraged his ball playing, believing it would have a positive effect on his health. There were many who believed, during his playing days, that Caruthers suffered from some kind of heart or lung disease and, if true, this would help explain his short career.
- What is your source for the height and weight?
- In my opinion, photos belie the attribution of a muscular build. IMO that includes the photo published with the short Tiemann-Davids biography. At least, I wouldn't call him muscular and publish that photo side by side without comment. (btw it may be reversed, holding the ball in the fingers of his left hand)
- Tiemann-Davids say "Bobby was sickly as a boy and a doctor recommended outdoor exercise. So the boy took up baseball over the objections of his mother."
The family moved to Chicago in 1876.
almost a teenager (12).
Somebody supposedly checked passenger manifests and was unable to confirm that Caruthers ever left the country or was on a ship that arrived in the United States from Europe. It's very possible that the whole thing was a bluff.
someone reported having checked passengers?
Well, that can be done again if necessary.
Are you working on a biography?

--
Regarding the minor leagues, Tiemann-Davids report
1883, Grand Rapids, 50 games
1884, Minneapolis, 51 games, 35 pitcher games
(St Louis AA debut 1884-09-02, 23 games and 13 pitcher games)
1894, Grand Rapids (Western League), 133 games
1895, Jacksonville (Western Assoc.), 92 games
1896, Burlington (WA), 52 games
1898, Burlington, 3 games

d. 1911-08-05 after suffering a nervous collapse while working as umpire (no date).