5 best by position not in the HOF--Catchers

[jjpm74]

This is a simple exercise. I'm wondering what everyone's top 5 Major League ball players are by position who are currently eligible for the hall of fame. This means:

--a minimum of 10 major league seasons played (professional play prior to 1871 does not consititute a major league season, but the 1871-1875 National Association years may be counted as Major League seasons; participants may, however, factor in pre-1870 play for any player who does have a minimum of 10 seasons played from 1871 on).

--We are not factoring in players who played in the Negro Leagues or any foreign leagues.

--Only players who retired prior to the 2005 season are eligible for this project.

--We are following the guidelines outlined by the NBHoFM.

--Multi-position players can also show up at a second (or third) position unless they were already voted into the top 5 at a given position. For example, if Deacon White finishes 6th here, he would also be eligible to be listed as a third baseman even though that was his secondary position. Please factor in their entire career regardless of which position you identify the multi-position player at. Not just their career at that given position.

--Revise as many times as you wish between now and the deadline. I will not do any tallying until the day after this ends (12/19). Please edit your existing post if you do revise rather than reposting to avoid confusion.

--Please keep positional listings reasonable. The minimum number of games 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, LF, CF, RF is 300 games at the position. The minimum for DH is 250 games as a DH. The minimum for catchers is 200 games as a catcher. The minimum for pitchers is 150 games as a pitcher. The minimum for relievers will be determined later.

Please list your top at the given position in ranked order. Players will receive 5 points for 1st, 4 for 2nd, etc. Tie breakers will be number of 1st place votes followed by number of 2nd place votes. Ballots that list 2 or more players as tied will not be counted.

This is the catcher's edition. Please post your top 5 catchers.

Polling will close 2 weeks from today (12/18).

[RuthMayBond]

It goes something like
Simmons
Torre (if you want to consider him a catcher, but I'll give a 6th)
Tenace (if you want to consider HIM a catcher, time to list more)
Deacon White (if you want to consider HIM a catcher, it was a lot tougher back then)
Freehan
Schang
Munson
Parrish

[dgarza]

If this exersice continues for a few days, Deacon White may or may not be eligible any more. Am I correct on this thinking?

[DoubleX]

If this exersice continues for a few days, Deacon White may or may not be eligible any more. Am I correct on this thinking?

One would hope. I'm glad they're using a special committee for the older players instead of just having living Hall of Famers vote, though I'm still not confident they'll elect anyone.

My top five:

Simmons
Torre (I would put Torre in ahead of Simmons, but Simmons ranks ahead at catcher)
Freehan
Schang
Parrish

Munson is next. White and Charlie Bennett would be on my list also, but I feel like 19th Century players should be treated differently for the Hall of Fame (as in a special 19th Century committee).

[dgarza]

1. Deacon White
2. Ted Simmons
3. Joe Torre
----------HOF line------
4. Thurman Munson
5. Lance Parrish
6. Walker Cooper

[jjpm74]

If this exersice continues for a few days, Deacon White may or may not be eligible any more. Am I correct on this thinking?

That's correct and let's hope he does get elected. In the interim, I'm operating under the assumption that the VC will not elect anyone from his era and plan on including him in my top 5. If he does get elected, I'll revert to the 6th best for the top 5 in his place.

[dgarza]

If he does get elected, I'll revert to the 6th best for the top 5 in his place.I'll add a 6th C, just in case...

[Freakshow]

1. Deacon White
2. Ted Simmons
3. Joe Torre
4. Bill Freehan
5. Charlie Bennett

[Paul Wendt]

Hi, jjpm74
I suppose that your method is to add these up only at the end, one fortnight hence, so you don't mind the posting of preliminaries that may be revised. I mean routine revision, perhaps based on a posted argument by someone else, perhaps based on a tasty slice of pizza. Revisions may be a lot more common than Deacon White's election to Cooperstown.

1. Deacon White

2. Ted Simmons
3. Joe Torre
4. Charlie Bennett
(gap)
5. ? Deacon McGuire

There may be only four whom I would put in Cooperstown myself. The fact that I stall at five suggests as much. Bill Freehan is one candidate; he is in the Hall of Merit.

If you plan to do one of these for every fielding position, I suggest that everyone eligible for the current BBWAA election by mail ("2009") should be included. Rickey Henderson, Matt Williams, Mark Grace ... no important catcher?

[jjpm74]

It goes something like
Simmons
Torre (if you want to consider him a catcher, but I'll give a 6th)
Tenace (if you want to consider HIM a catcher, time to list more)
Deacon White (if you want to consider HIM a catcher, it was a lot tougher back then)
Freehan
Schang
Munson
Parrish

Multi-position players can also show up at a second position unless they were already voted into the top 5 at a given position. For example, if Deacon White finishes 6th here, he would also be eligible to be listed as a third baseman even though that was his secondary position. Please factor in their entire career regardless. Not just their career as a catcher.

The only request is that we keep it reasonable. Please do not list players at a position they did not play at least 300 games at for 1B, 2B, 3B, LF, CF, RF; at least 200 for catchers, and at least 150 for pitchers.

[jjpm74]

Hi, jjpm74
I suppose that your method is to add these up only at the end, one fortnight hence, so you don't mind the posting of preliminaries that may be revised. I mean routine revision, perhaps based on a posted argument by someone else, perhaps based on a tasty slice of pizza. Revisions may be a lot more common than Deacon White's election to Cooperstown.


Revise as many times as you want between now and the last day of voting. I'm not doing any tallying until the day after this ends (12/19). Please go back and edit your existing list rather than reposting again, however.

[jjpm74]

If you plan to do one of these for every fielding position, I suggest that everyone eligible for the current BBWAA election by mail ("2009") should be included. Rickey Henderson, Matt Williams, Mark Grace ... no important catcher?

That works for me. I'll revise the first post to read retired prior to the start of the 2005 MLB season.

[Fuzzy Bear]

In order:

Ted Simmons
Joe Torre
Lance Parrish
Bill Freehan
Thurman Munson

[Cougar]

1. Joe Torre
2. Ted Simmons
3a. Bill Freehan
3b. Elston Howard
3c. Thurman Munson
6. Wally Schang
7. Lance Parrish

[Fuzzy Bear]

1. Joe Torre
2. Ted Simmons
3a. Bill Freehan
3b. Elston Howard
3c. Thurman Munson
6. Wally Schang
7. Lance Parrish

I've never been sure quite what to do with Howard.

I'd rate Parrish and Bob Boone ahead of Howard. I'd also rate them ahead of Schang, who I believe has been overrated by Bill James and some others.

[jjpm74]

1. Joe Torre
2. Ted Simmons
3a. Bill Freehan
3b. Elston Howard
3c. Thurman Munson
6. Wally Schang
7. Lance Parrish

No ties, please. :)

[Freakshow]

If you plan to do one of these for every fielding position, I suggest that everyone eligible for the current BBWAA election by mail ("2009") should be included. Rickey Henderson, Matt Williams, Mark Grace ... no important catcher?Well, Todd Hundley, Joe Girardi and Chad Kreuter might take exception to that. Likewise, Brent Mayne in the following year. :yawn:

The next interesting (important?) catcher comes on for the BBWAA election of "2011": Benito Santiago, along with BJ Surhoff and Charles Johnson. Then Javy Lopez in 2012. Finally, Mike Piazza in 2013.

[AstrosFan]

1. Joe Torre
2. Ted Simmons
3. Bill Freehan
4. Charlie Bennett
5. Thurman Munson

Honorable mention: Deacon White

[PVNICK]

1. Simmons
2. Torre
3. Freehan
4. Lance Parrish
5. Bennett
6. Boone
7. Schang

White played 800+ games @ 3B and 400+ at C so I would have him @ 3B. He would be 4 if placed on this list.

[MyDogSparty]

1. Bill Freehan
2. Ted Simmons
3. Thurman Munson
4. Joe Torre
5. Lance Parrish

[leecemark]

1) Deacon White
2) Bill Freehan
3) Ted Simmons
4) Joe Torre
5) Charlie Bennett
--I endorse all of these candidate. Also worth considering; Cal McVey, Wally Schang, Elston Howard, Thurman Munson and Lance Parrish.

[Cougar]

No ties, please. :)

Fine. :P

1. Simmons
2. Torre
3. Freehan
4. Munson
5. Howard
6. Schang
7. Parrish

[Cougar]

I've never been sure quite what to do with Howard.

I'd rate Parrish and Bob Boone ahead of Howard. I'd also rate them ahead of Schang, who I believe has been overrated by Bill James and some others.

Howard gets a splash of extra credit as a trailblazer, in my opinion.

I wouldn't necessarily quibble with putting Parrish ahead of Howard, though...I think that's a fairly close call. Boone's probably #8 or #9 on my list; as good as he was defensively, he was close to an offensive zero...it's hard to vault him over guys were were pretty good glovemen themselves but also could hit a little.

[Paul Wendt]

--I endorse all of these candidate. Also worth considering; Cal McVey, Wally Schang, Elston Howard, Thurman Munson and Lance Parrish.McVey should be a Hall of Fame candidate but he is not eligible, the "major league" thing.

jjpm, That date should be 2004.

Major league finale 1880 to 2003, among other conditions.

[dgarza]

McVey should be a Hall of Fame candidate but he is not eligible, the "major league" thing.

Actually, it's the 10-year thing.

[jjpm74]

McVey should be a Hall of Fame candidate but he is not eligible, the "major league" thing.

jjpm, That date should be 2004.

Major league finale 1880 to 2003, among other conditions.

I'm okay with including players who retired in 2004 in this as well since the project will last about 26 weeks start to finish. You're also correct that Cal McVey misses the cut in this project.

[bambambaseball]

1. Deacon White
2. Ted Simmons
3. Thurman Munson
4. Lance Parrish
5. Charlie Bennett
6. Wally Schang--just in case we get god news on Monday about White! :)

[Domenic]

1. Joe Torre
2. Ted Simmons
3. Thurman Munson
4. Charlie Bennett
5. Elston Howard

[jalbright]

1. Deacon White
2. Ted Simmons
3. Quincy Trouppe
4. Bill Freehan
5. Charlie Bennett

[jjpm74]

3. Quincy Trouppe



Minimum 10 ML seasons, please.

[jjpm74]

1. Ted Simmons
2. Deacon White
3. Bill Freehan
4. Charlie Bennett
5. Thurman Munson
6. Elston Howard

Wally Schang, Bob Boone, Lance Parrish, Jim Sundberg, Joe Torre, and Deacon McQuire are all in the neighborhood for me as well.

[jalbright]

Minimum 10 ML seasons, please.

Your call to eliminate consideration of Negro Leaguers. My call is that after this, I'll pass under that condition. For this one, move the others up and add Torre.

[jjpm74]

Your call to eliminate consideration of Negro Leaguers. My call is that after this, I'll pass under that condition. For this one, move the others up and add Torre.

No one's forcing you to participate, you could have read the 1st post in the project before posting your ballot, and I didn't ask for your feedback. I'm looking for the top 5 major leaguers per position for this project. If it offends you that I am not including Negro Leaguers in a project that is specifically focused on major league players, that's your loss.

Edit: I also do not understand at all why you participated in freakshow's project that also did not include Negro Leaguers if you are so bothered by any activity that does not incorporate them or why you feel the need to turn this into a political statement by announcing your unwillingness to participate in what was supposed to be a light, fun exercise.

[henrich]

top 5 catchers not in the HOF

1. Elston Howard 9470
2. Joe Torre 8539
3. Ted Simmons 8532
4. Thurman Munson 7565
5. Schang 7516

[STLCards2]

1. Ted Simmons
2. Joe Torre
3. Deacon White
4. Charlie Bennett
5. Bill Freehan

[jalbright]

No one's forcing you to participate, you could have read the 1st post in the project before posting your ballot, and I didn't ask for your feedback. I'm looking for the top 5 major leaguers per position for this project. If it offends you that I am not including Negro Leaguers in a project that is specifically focused on major league players, that's your loss.

Edit: I also do not understand at all why you participated in freakshow's project that also did not include Negro Leaguers if you are so bothered by any activity that does not incorporate them or why you feel the need to turn this into a political statement by announcing your unwillingness to participate in what was supposed to be a light, fun exercise.

I'm not offended by it, I simply don't want to participate in this project under that constraint. It doesn't interest me right now--but it would if they were included. Some projects don't. As I had voted once because I missed that requirement, I didn't think there was anything inappropriate in saying I choose not to do so in the future. I'm respecting your right to conduct your project in the fashion you prefer, while maintaining my own to participate only in those that intrigue me. I'm sorry if that annoys you.

[jjpm74]

I'm sorry if that annoys you.

What annoys me is that you deem it a necessity to publicly announce whether or not you plan on participating in a given project in this forum usually before you have read about or had a chance to digest the purpose of the project, but at the same time are very hard on anyone who messes up or does not follow the rules in your projects. You pulled the same garbage when I launched the pitcher project, almost killing it before it even had a chance to get off the ground. I do not care which projects you choose to participate in or not participate in or why. There are many projects going on throughout this site I don't care about. I'm not about to go around announcing it to the world.

[sonofkirby]

Ted Simmons
Thurmon Munson
Bob Boone
Lance Parrish
Tony Pena

[yanks0714]

1) Joe Torre
2) Ted Simmons
3) Elston Howard
4) Deacon White
5) Wally Schang

[jjpm74]

This has a good turnout so far. Anyone wishing to participate still has a few more days to do so. This closes on 12/18 at 5PM.

[Gee Walker]

1. Joe Torre
2. Bill Freehan
3. Ted Simmons
4. Lance Parrish
5. Wally Schang

Honorable mention for a short career: Chief Myers.

[Paul Wendt]

Honorable mention for a short career: Chief Myers.
Book Review (sport literature association) (http://www.uta.edu/english/sla/br050622.html):
Jeffrey Powers-Beck, The American Indian Integration of Baseball. Lincoln, NE: University of Nebraska Press, 2004. 281 pp. $34.95. ISBN: 0-8032-3745-6