Also-Ran Pitchers, poll 2-D

[Paul Wendt]

Also-Ran Pitchers covers the losers in phase one of "Top 100 Pitchers". Here we are selecting the best of those also-rans in a series of polls something like the hundred pitchers polls. Please use the same criteria you do use or would use for the hundred pitchers.

That is the project or game. Frankly, my main purpose is to try out and demonstrate a system for projects like this. There will not be much discussion of the method initially but the pace will be faster than it would if ranking the also-rans were important. I will post polls without deadlines but the leaders might advance any time after 48 hours and ten votes.

This poll 2-D dips again from pools 1-A to 1-H and matches 30 pitchers who nearly advanced to stage two. Generally they were tied for rank 9 and some neighboring ranks when winners or "advancers" were announced. (All of those stage one "vote for 8" polls are still open. Newcomers please see the CONTENTS, reply #1.)

add:
Bold marks the winners, only four because there is a tie for ranks 5-13 ! (more information below (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1393845&postcount=7))
The poll remains open.

The ballot lists candidates and their major league debut years in alphabetical order.
Here they are in chronological order.
UPPERCASE names identify mainly-relief pitchers and UPPERCASE surnames identify intermediate careers.
'DT' and the player name are linked to player pages at BaseballProspectus and Baseball-Reference.

DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/creigh.php) : Jim Creighton (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/creigh.shtml), debut ~1859 (no player pages online)
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/buffich01.php) : Charlie Buffinton (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/buffich01.shtml), 1882
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/whitedo01.php) : Doc White (http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/whitedo01.shtml), debut 1901
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/mullige01.php) : George Mullin (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mullige01.shtml), 1902
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/bushjo01.php) : Joe Bush (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bushjo01.shtml), 1912
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/daussho01.php) : Hooks Dauss (http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/daussho01.shtml), 1912
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/haineje01.php) : Jesse Haines (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/haineje01.shtml), 1918
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/uhlege01.php) : George Uhle (http://www.baseball-reference.com/u/uhlege01.shtml), 1919
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/bushgu01.php) : Guy BUSH (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bushgu01.shtml), 1923
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/lucasre01.php) : Red Lucas (http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/lucasre01.shtml), 1923
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/frencla01.php) : Larry French (http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/frencla01.shtml), 1929
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/chandsp01.php) : Spud Chandler (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/chandsp01.shtml), 1937
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/brechha01.php) : Harry Brecheen (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/brechha01.shtml), 1940
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/lopated01.php) : Ed Lopat (http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/lopated01.shtml), 1944
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/kindeel01.php) : Ellis KINDER (http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kindeel01.shtml), 1946
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/lawve01.php) : Vern Law (http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/lawve01.shtml), 1950
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/podrejo01.php) : Johnny Podres (http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/podrejo01.shtml), 1953
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/pappami01.php) : Milt Pappas (http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/pappami01.shtml), 1957
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/perryji01.php) : Jim Perry (http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/perryji01.shtml), 1959
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/holtzke01.php) : Ken Holtzman (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/holtzke01.shtml), 1965
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/marshmi01.php) : MIKE MARSHALL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/marshmi01.shtml), 1967
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/richajr01.php) : J.R. Richard (http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/richajr01.shtml), 1971
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/rogerst01.php) : Steve Rogers (http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/rogerst01.shtml), 1973
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/hernawi01.php) : WILLIE HERNANDEZ (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hernawi01.shtml), 1977
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/righeda01.php) : Dave RIGHETTI (http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/righeda01.shtml), 1979
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/brownto05.php) : Tom Browning (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/brownto05.shtml), 1984
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/drabedo01.php) : Doug Drabek (http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/drabedo01.shtml), 1986
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/rogerke01.php) : Kenny ROGERS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/rogerke01.shtml), 1989
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/wakefti01.php) : Tim Wakefield (http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wakefti01.shtml), 1992
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/wettejo01.php) : JOHN WETTELAND (http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wettejo01.shtml), 1989

Vote for 8 of 30

There will be eight winners who advance to stage three and thereby join the pool that contends for high rungs on the ladder.

[Paul Wendt]

CONTENTS

Stage One, a first pass through all the also-rans from "Top 100 Pitchers" phase one,
eight rounds

poll 1-A (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83799) - still open but leaders have advanced to poll 2-A
poll 1-B (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83842) - still open but leaders have advanced to poll 2-A
poll 1-C (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83841) - still open but leaders have advanced to poll 2-A
poll 1-D (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83898) - still open but leaders have advanced to poll 2-B
poll 1-E (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84027) - still open but leaders have advanced to poll 2-C
poll 1-F (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84152) - still open but leaders have advanced to poll 2-C
poll 1-G (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84177) - still open but leaders have advanced to poll 2-C
poll 1-H (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84322) - still open but leaders have advanced to poll 2-C
poll 1-I (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85238) - poll open, 12-02

Stage Two

poll 2-A (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83908) - still open but leaders have advanced to poll 3-A and the rest have continued in poll 2-B
poll 2-B (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84369) - still open but leaders have advanced to poll 3-B
poll 2-C (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84603) - still open but leaders have advanced to the queue
poll 2-D (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85266) - poll open, 12-03 (You are here.)

Stage Three, runging the ladder in threes

poll 3-A (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84285) - still open but leaders have been rung and the rest have continued in poll 3-B
poll 3-B (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84862) - poll open, 11-13

[Paul Wendt]

How did these pitchers fare in "Top 100 Pitchers"?

All were losers in phase one. Six earned at least five votes. Seven more earned four votes so five votes defines a compelling subset. (listed in chronological =debut=post#1 order, not alphabetical=ballot order, not in 100pitchers order)

good show in Top 100 phase one
Jim Creighton
Charlie Buffinton
MIKE MARSHALL
J.R. Richard
Steve Rogers
Kenny Rogers

Naturally, none of them are among the also-rans who earned slots in Tier 6 (5) or in Tier 7 (3). In fact, none scored well enough in the official also-rans runoff to be included in the Tier 6 poll.

Seven of them picked up several votes in that runoff (listed in chron order).

good show in Top 100 also-rans runoff (Tier 6 semifinal)
Jesse Haines
Spud Chandler
Harry Brecheen
Johnny Podres
Milt Pappas
MIKE MARSHALL
J.R. Richard

Remarkably, only Mike Marshall and J.R. Richard registered both of those two "strong" showings. Finally five of them including Marshall and Richard won slots in Tier 8 (listed in chron order).

Tier 8
Harry Brecheen
Milt Pappas
MIKE MARSHALL
J.R. Richard
Steve Rogers

[Paul Wendt]

Jim Creighton was a living legend on the mound and in death a legendary batter as well. It was said that they put him out only on the bases during his last season.

George Mullin, George Uhle, Red Lucas were three of the strongest batters among career pitchers. Uhle and Lucas were good pitchers for long enough to carry them on this ballot. Mullin was not, too mediocre a pitcher to support in this field.

Charlie Buffinton, Doc White, Joe Bush, Eddie Lopat, Vernon Law, and --can it be?-- relief pitcher Mike Marshall were strong batters.

Buffinton and White were good pitchers for long enough to carry them on this ballot. Marshall was briefly a great pitcher. He was a pioneer in practical training and he is a pioneer in laboratory study of pitching. That makes a winning resume here. Bush was too mediocre a pitcher to support in this field; Lopat and Law were above average but not good enough given their medium-long careers.

Pending your take on Creighton, that makes 5 or 6 votable pitchers among the great to very good batters.

--
Harry Brecheen and Spud Chandler were above average batters and outstanding pitchers, the best pitchers on the ballot along with Ellis Kinder (a weak batter) and John Wetteland (apparently good, especially for a relief pitcher), and with possible exception of Creighton or Buffinton. This quartet worked about 1900, 1500, 1500, and 765 innings.

Among the remaining 3000-inning pitchers, Dauss and Perry were above average batters, French and Kenny Rogers below average, Haines and Pappas weak. Holtzman, Steve Rogers, and Wakefield were below average batters who worked just short of 3000 innings.

Note.
Kenny Rogers and Tim Wakefield are still working at age 44 and 42 after more than 3300 and 2800 career innings. Rogers hasn't batted much since 1999 (Mets, 30 of 75 career PA) and Wakefield not much since 1994-95 (Pirates, 80 of 117 career PA).


How much difference does it make?
Pitcher Batting on the pitching scale

Before WWII the strongest batting pitchers were important pinch-hitters and reserve outfielders. For the 20th century trio on this ballot, the outfielding was trivial. Mullin worked 127 games when he didn't pitch, including 15 when he did take the field; Uhle worked 209, never in the field (all in the pinch); Lucas worked 511 games including only 18 in the field.

How much was their batting worth when they were pitching? Uhle's record is the most convenient for expression on the ERA+ scale, an index where 100 represents league average. For pitching only George Uhle's rating is 105 by ERA+, about 106 by DERA+ (where the small difference represents a small adjustment for slightly below-average team fielding). His bat generated about 4% of league average team runs above the average pitcher at bat, comparable to the 5% or 6% of league-average team runs that his arm prevented. For pitching and batting, net, his rating is about 109 by ERA*, 110 by DERA*. That is good, over 3000 innings it may be worth one of those balsa-wood placards in the Hall of the Very Good.

[J W]

Tight list of pitchers. Not feeling the love for JR Richard or Johnny Podres though, in lieu of some of the 200+ win pitchers with similar or better performance #s.

Also interesting to see Mike Marshall so ahead of John Wetteland. True, they're at opposite ends of the reliever spectrum... Marshall the old fireman and Wetteland the specialist closer. I just see them both in that tenth-ish area of all time relievers.

I am happy to see Steve Rogers get play. How in the world did he make the All-Star game in 1974?

[Paul Wendt]

The ballot lists candidates and their major league debut years in alphabetical order.
Here they are in chronological order.
UPPERCASE names identify mainly-relief pitchers and UPPERCASE surnames identify intermediate careers.
'DT' and the player name are linked to player pages at BaseballProspectus and Baseball-Reference.

* ; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/creigh.php) : Jim Creighton (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/creigh.shtml), debut ~1859 (no player pages online)
* ; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/buffich01.php) : Charlie Buffinton (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/buffich01.shtml), 1882
10; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/whitedo01.php) : Doc White (http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/whitedo01.shtml), debut 1901
--; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/mullige01.php) : George Mullin (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mullige01.shtml), 1902
- ; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/bushjo01.php) : Joe Bush (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bushjo01.shtml), 1912
--; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/daussho01.php) : Hooks Dauss (http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/daussho01.shtml), 1912
9 ; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/haineje01.php) : Jesse Haines (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/haineje01.shtml), 1918
* ; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/uhlege01.php) : George Uhle (http://www.baseball-reference.com/u/uhlege01.shtml), 1919
--; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/bushgu01.php) : Guy BUSH (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bushgu01.shtml), 1923
--; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/lucasre01.php) : Red Lucas (http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/lucasre01.shtml), 1923
--; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/frencla01.php) : Larry French (http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/frencla01.shtml), 1929
* ; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/chandsp01.php) : Spud Chandler (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/chandsp01.shtml), 1937
8 ; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/brechha01.php) : Harry Brecheen (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/brechha01.shtml), 1940
* ; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/lopated01.php) : Ed Lopat (http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/lopated01.shtml), 1944
- ; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/kindeel01.php) : Ellis KINDER (http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kindeel01.shtml), 1946
--; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/lawve01.php) : Vern Law (http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/lawve01.shtml), 1950
9 ; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/podrejo01.php) : Johnny Podres (http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/podrejo01.shtml), 1953
8 ; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/pappami01.php) : Milt Pappas (http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/pappami01.shtml), 1957
9 ; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/perryji01.php) : Jim Perry (http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/perryji01.shtml), 1959
* ; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/holtzke01.php) : Ken Holtzman (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/holtzke01.shtml), 1965
8 ; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/marshmi01.php) : MIKE MARSHALL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/marshmi01.shtml), 1967
8 ; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/richajr01.php) : J.R. Richard (http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/richajr01.shtml), 1971
8 ; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/rogerst01.php) : Steve Rogers (http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/rogerst01.shtml), 1973
- ; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/hernawi01.php) : WILLIE HERNANDEZ (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hernawi01.shtml), 1977
- ; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/righeda01.php) : Dave RIGHETTI (http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/righeda01.shtml), 1979
- ; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/brownto05.php) : Tom Browning (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/brownto05.shtml), 1984
* ; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/drabedo01.php) : Doug Drabek (http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/drabedo01.shtml), 1986
10; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/rogerke01.php) : Kenny ROGERS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/rogerke01.shtml), 1989
10; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/wettejo01.php) : JOHN WETTELAND (http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wettejo01.shtml), 1989
* ; DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/wakefti01.php) : Tim Wakefield (http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wakefti01.shtml), 1992

The neighboring "Top 100 Pitchers" project has recently reconsidered its also-rans; they hold many of the places in Tiers 8-10 and a few higher. How are the candidates on this ballot faring there? Eleven of them have been tiered (here marked 8, 9, 10) and eight more were in the Tier 10 final (*). Five of the others tallied a vote or two in that project's phase one (- ), of whom Tom Browning has a good chance to advance here, and six tallied zero votes there (--).

Here is your chance to approve those selections, or re-prove some of them!

[Paul Wendt]

This poll 2-D dips again from pools 1-A to 1-H and matches 30 pitchers who nearly advanced to [Also-Rans] stage two.

. . .

Vote for 8 of 30

There will be eight winners who advance to stage three and thereby join the pool that contends for high rungs on the ladder.
On the contrary, after 12 votes cast and one month passed it is easy to rule that
four winners advance to stage three.

9 Harry Brecheen
8 MIKE MARSHALL
6 J.R. Richard
6 Steve Rogers

Only four leaders advance because there is a gap followed by a big tie for ranks 5-13. This poll matches also-rans from all stage one polls A to H, so the field should not be strong. To advance only the few clear leaders will help maintain some focus at stage three.

We may dip again from this pool. Here are the current leaders for such modest honors.
4 : Tom Browning, Charlie Buffinton, Spud Chandler, Doug Drabek, Jesse Haines, Milt Pappas, Johnny Podres, George Uhle, Doc White
3 : Jim Creighton, Ed Lopat, Jim Perry, Dave RIGHETTI, Tim Wakefield, JOHN WETTELAND

The poll remains open but the leftovers will not overtake the winners based on votes that continue to be cast here.