Also-Ran Pitchers,poll 1-I

[Paul Wendt]

Also-Ran Pitchers covers the losers in phase one of "Top 100 Pitchers". Here we are selecting the best of those also-rans in a series of polls something like the hundred pitchers polls. Please use the same criteria you do use or would use for the hundred pitchers.

That is the project or game. Frankly, my main purpose is to try out and demonstrate a system for projects like this. There will not be much discussion of the method initially but the pace will be faster than it would if ranking the also-rans were important. I will post polls without deadlines but the leaders might advance any time after 48 hours and ten votes.


This poll 1-I covers 33 pitchers who earned no votes in phase one of the "Top 100 Pitchers". Barry Zito crashes the party and thereby joins his early teammate Mark Mulder. The 33 were not included in "Also-Ran Pitchers" 1-E to 1-H. Those four polls covered 92 pitchers who tallied one vote or no votes --everyone with one vote and about half of those with no votes. Now polls 1-E to 1-I have covered all 125 pitchers who tallied one vote or no votes.

add:
Bold marks the winners, only seven because there is a tie for ranks 8-9-10-11. (more information below (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1382349&postcount=9))
The poll remains open.

The ballot lists candidates and their major league debut years in alphabetical order.
Here they are in chronological order.
UPPERCASE names identify mainly-relief pitchers and UPPERCASE surnames identify intermediate careers.
'DT' and the player name are linked to player pages at BaseballProspectus and Baseball-Reference.

DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/breweji01.php) : Jim BREWER (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/breweji01.shtml), debut 1960
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/sadecra01.php) : Ray SADECKI (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sadecra01.shtml), 1960
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/giustda01.php) : Dave GIUSTI (http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/giustda01.shtml), 1962
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/carrocl02.php) : CLAY CARROLL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/carrocl02.shtml), 1964
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/dierkla01.php) : Larry Dierker (http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/dierkla01.shtml), 1964
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/frymawo01.php) : Woodie FRYMAN (http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/frymawo01.shtml), 1966
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/billija01.php) : Jack BILLINGHAM (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/billija01.shtml), 1968
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/garbege01.php) : GENE GARBER (http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/garbege01.shtml), 1969
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/splitpa01.php) : Paul Splittorff (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/splitpa01.shtml), 1970
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/caldwmi01.php) : Mike CALDWELL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/caldwmi01.shtml), 1971
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/campbbi02.php) : BILL CAMPBELL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/campbbi02.shtml), 1973
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/dennyjo01.php) : John Denny (http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/dennyjo01.shtml), 1974
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/forscbo01.php) : Bob Forsch (http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/forscbo01.shtml), 1974
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/rhoderi01.php) : Rick Rhoden (http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/rhoderi01.shtml), 1974
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/mintogr01.php) : GREG MINTON (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mintogr01.shtml), 1975
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/stanlbo01.php) : Bob STANLEY (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/stanlbo01.shtml), 1977
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/plesada01.php) : DAN PLESAC (http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/plesada01.shtml), 1986
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/fernasi01.php) : Sid Fernandez (http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/fernasi01.shtml), 1983
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/worreto01.php) : TODD WORRELL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/worreto01.shtml), 1985
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/gordoto01.php) : Tom GORDON (http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gordoto01.shtml), 1988
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/weathda01.php) : Dave WEATHERS (http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/weathda01.shtml), 1991
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/guarded01.php) : EDDIE GUARDADO (http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/guarded01.shtml), 1993
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/hamptmi01.php) : Mike Hampton (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hamptmi01.shtml), 1993
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/liebejo01.php) : Jon Lieber (http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/liebejo01.shtml), 1994
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/parkch01.php) : Chan Ho Park (http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/parkch01.shtml), 1994
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/estessh01.php) : Shawn Estes (http://www.baseball-reference.com/e/estessh01.shtml), 1995
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/escobke01.php) : Kelvim ESCOBAR (http://www.baseball-reference.com/e/escobke01.shtml), 1997
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/millwke01.php) : Kevin Millwood (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/millwke01.shtml), 1997
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/morrima01.php) : Matt Morris (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/morrima01.shtml), 1997
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/ortizru01.php) : Russ Ortiz (http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/ortizru01.shtml), 1998
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/garcifr02.php) : Freddy Garcia (http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/garcifr02.shtml), 1999
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/garlajo01.php) : Jon Garland (http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/garlajo01.shtml), 2000
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/muldema01.php) : Mark Mulder (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/muldema01.shtml), 2000
DT (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/zitoba01.php) : Barry Zito (http://www.baseball-reference.com/z/zitoba01.shtml), 2000

Vote for 8 of 34

There will be eight "winners" who advance to the next stage --or fewer than eight in case of ties, but no fewer than five because I will certainly wait for any tie that covers ranks 5-6-7-8-9 to break.

[Paul Wendt]

CONTENTS

Stage One, a first pass through all the also-rans from "Top 100 Pitchers" phase one,
eight rounds

poll 1-A (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83799) - still open but leaders have advanced to poll 2-A
poll 1-B (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83842) - still open but leaders have advanced to poll 2-A
poll 1-C (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83841) - still open but leaders have advanced to poll 2-A
poll 1-D (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83898) - still open but leaders have advanced to poll 2-B
poll 1-E (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84027) - still open but leaders have advanced to poll 2-C
poll 1-F (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84152) - still open but leaders have advanced to poll 2-C
poll 1-G (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84177) - still open but leaders have advanced to poll 2-C
poll 1-H (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84322) - still open but leaders have advanced to poll 2-C
poll 1-I (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85238) - poll open, 12-02 (You are here.)

Stage Two

poll 2-A (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83908) - still open but leaders have advanced to poll 3-A and the rest have continued in poll 2-B
poll 2-B (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84369) - still open but leaders have advanced to poll 3-B
poll 2-C (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84603) - still open but leaders have advanced to the queue
poll 2-D (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85266) - poll open, 12-03

Stage Three, runging the ladder in threes

poll 3-A (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84285) - still open but leaders have been rung and the rest have continued in poll 3-B
poll 3-B (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84862) - poll open, 11-13

[jjpm74]

My 8 clustered into 4 groups:

Jim Brewer
Clay Carroll
Sid Fernandez
Tom Gordon
-----------------
Todd Worrell
-----------------
Freddie Garcia
Dan Plesac
-----------------
Matt Morris

[Paul Wendt]

Jim Brewer is a problem for me. He was unreliable for a long time, which was practically before my time. He "stepped up" after Koufax, and stepped up a little more after Drysdale, as the Dodgers stepped down off the national stage. (add: Brewer started 35 games 1960-67 including 11 each in 1961 and 1967, pre and post-Koufax. Beginning 1968 he pitched only in relief.)

At the career level Ron Perranoski was a little bit better than Brewer but he is a lot more famous because he was the ace during the Koufax-Drysdale heyday, three World Series and one NL playoff in five years 1962-1966. Brewer's seven seasons as a cornerstone of the bullpen fit precisely between the Dodger pennants (and between post-season appearances) 1966 and 1974.

I remember only that Brewer was one of the "great" relief pitchers during my own salad days as a baseball fan. The record shows that he was not quite so good, and not for so long as I remember, so I passed on him in the end.

Two relief pitchers do get my vote here, Clay Carroll and Gene Garber from the late '70s Reds and Phillies.

Dave Giusti was a converted starter on the early '70s Pirates. (add: He started 130 games in the 1960s including 100 during 1966-68.) He was just as good but for a shorter span, when the Pirates were winners.

We have already tiered Tug McGraw who was briefly great for the Mets (between playoff seasons) and very good again for the Phillies.

By the way, John Hiller and Sparky Lyle were left-hand ace relief pitchers in the AL at about the same time as Jim Brewer and Tug McGraw in the NL.
--

On this ballot I prefer the career starters and the mixed careers.

Larry Dierker --member, SABR, a baseball research society
Bob Stanley
Sid Fernandez
Tom Gordon

Perhaps one or more of that quartet belongs in the Tiers.

For two others the pitching and batting mix is good enough to get my votes here.

Rick Rhoden
Mike Hampton

[Paul Wendt]

Mike Hampton was a great batter, superior in his own time to George Mullin, George Uhle, and Red Lucas in theirs. (Hampton achieved only OPS+ 66; compare Mullin 100, Uhle 86, Lucas 84. But average pitcher batting declined more than 20 points during the seventy years between Lucas and Hampton.)

Bob Forsch, Rick Rhoden, Russ Ortiz were three of the strongest batters among career pitchers. Jon Garland may join them with a great big asterisk that shouts "28 interleague plate appearances!".

Among that quintet Hampton and Rhoden were good enough pitchers for long enough to support on this ballot. Forsch and Ortiz were much below average as pitchers and Garland's batting record is too skimpy for this feature.


Dave Giusti, Ray Sadecki, Paul Splittorff, Sid Fernandez, Chan Ho Park, Freddy Garcia, and Mike Mulder were strong batters among pitchers.
(At OPS+ 28 in the sixties and seventies, Sadecki is borderline but he worked enough in relief to tip the balance, relief pitchers being woefully weak batters as a class.)

For this group the value of strong batting is clearly greater than 1 point on the ERA+ scale, closer to 2 points for most of them. Compare 5-6 points for Hampton and about 3-4 points for Forsch, Rhoden, Ortiz, and maybe Garland.

Within this group only Sadecki and Splittorff worked more than 2000 innings, both about 2500. They were mediocre pitchers at best, not worth support in this poll. Sid Fernandez certainly and Freddy Garcia probably pitched well for long enough. DERA approves Fernandez in particular, because he suffered with poor team fielding (DERA+ <114; with batting DERA* >115); Garcia has enjoyed good team fielding (DERA+ >104; with batting DERA* > 106).

If Dave Giusti had been a competent starting pitcher I would add him; if batting were more important in a relief pitcher I would add him. Perhaps he deserves your support for his pitching alone, during the six seasons when he and the Pirates were good. (Pittsburgh acquired Giusti for the 1970 season and made him ace relief pitcher. They won five divi-pennants in six seasons while Mr. Thousand Innings at Rate 80 did a very good job indeed.)

Pending your take on Garcia (borderline quantity) and Giusti (misfit with his primary merit as ace relief pitcher), that makes 3 to 5 votable pitchers among the great to very good batters.

--
Let me pass on the above average, average and below average batters.

Among the weak batters (10 or so) only Larry Dierker and Woodie Fryman worked 2000 innings, both about 2400; indeed only they worked even 1500 innings unobscured by the DH rule or the closer role (Gordon 2000 inns, Zito 1800, Stanley 1700). Larry Dierker probably deserves your vote and Fryman probably doesn't. Dierker suffered with the worst team fielding on this ballot and Fryman with notably below-average team fielding.
Dierker: ERA+ 103 and DERA+ >110 (note the difference); incorporate batting => ERA* 101 and DERA* 108
Fryman: ERA+ 96 and DERA+ >99; incorporate batting => ERA* 94, DERA* 97
If you are a 2/3-hearted believer in the DERA adjustment for team fielding, call it net pitching-batting rate Dierker 106, Fryman 96.

[Paul Wendt]

: CLAY CARROLL, 1964
: Larry Dierker, 1964
: Bob Forsch, 1974
: Sid Fernandez, 1983
: Tom GORDON, 1988
: Mike Hampton, 1993

Who will join them on the list of baseball's best pitchers?
(not very close to the top of the list :D)

Will it be Dave GIUSTI, the ace of the Pirates when they won 5 times in 6 seasons?
--after a truly awful career in the starting rotation

Or GENE GARBER, who led the Phillies to beat them at last?
--before, with Atlanta late in 1978:
>>
Both Garber's pitch selection and exuberance irritated the game's all-time hits leader who was in a foul mood now that his chance to break Joe DiMaggio's major league record 56-game hitting streak was gone.

"Pete doesn't even get to the dugout when the media is all over him asking him questions. I went to the clubhouse and listened to Rose's interview. Pete is badmouthing me saying things like 'Garber pitched like it was the ninth inning of the seventh game of the World Series," Garber recalled.
<<
("Former reliever Garber recalls . . . " (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FCI/is_2_63/ai_112167128), Baseball Digest Feb 2004)

[henrich]

Billingham
Fryman
Giusti
Rhoden
Garber
Gordon
Sadecki
Forsch

In order for me.

[Paul Wendt]

Hello, Henrich
and Domenic
Thank you for voicing your opinions.

We seem to have a low turnout from the Center and Bottom parties - denter and bottom of the alphabet, that is. At 'H' Mike Hampton is the last of our now seven leaders.

>>
"Will it be Dave GIUSTI, the ace of the Pirates when they won 5 times in 6 seasons?
--after a truly awful career in the starting rotation.

Or GENE GARBER, who led the Phillies to beat them at last?"
<<

Or Jim BREWER who toiled for the Dodgers at the same time?
Brewer emerged from the shadow of Ron Perranoski in 1967/68, after Sandy Koufax retired and the Dodgers passed from the pennant scene. The team finished second four years running before stealing one on the Big Red Machine as Brewer passed from the crucial roles. I suspect that he was injured, too: suddenly only 39 inns, only 1/3 inn in the World Series.

Jim Brewer was one of several left-hand relief aces back in the 1960s and 1970s (Hiller, Lyle, McGraw). What happened?

The Mets never chickened out, as they followed up with Orosco in the early '80s (1979 debut), Myers in the late '80s ('85 debut), and Franco in the '90s (trade for Myers). That management courage has made the Mets champions many times, has it not? But the lemmings run with the losers.

[Paul Wendt]

The last two ballots cast gave one vote each to Dave Giusti, Gene Garber, Jim Brewer, and two votes to their contemporary Woodie Fryman, not enough for any of them to advance. By our joint judgment Clay Carroll stands alone as the next best relief pitcher from that time.

After 11 ballots cast,
seven leaders advance, only seven because there is a tie for ranks 8-9-10-11.

7, Sid Fernandez
7, Tom GORDON
6, CLAY CARROLL
5, Larry Dierker
5, Bob Forsch
5, Freddie Garcia
5, Mike Hampton

We have now completed stage one; thus we have covered all of the losers in "Top 100 Pitchers" stage one or preliminary, except for the "Negro Leagues" prelim.

We may dip again from this pool. There are four current leaders for that honor.

4, GENE GARBER
4, DAN PLESAC
4, Rick Rhoden
4, TODD WORRELL

The poll remains open but the leftovers will not overtake the winners in that later phase based on votes that continue to be cast here