BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1929

[DoubleX]

PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING!

Format and Rules
Voting Rules: Voters may vote for between 0-15 candidates. Votes will be made public, and voters are encouraged to post their ballots in the thread and not view results before voting. PLEASE LIMIT YOUR BALLOT TO 15 VOTES AT MOST. EXCESS VOTES MAY RESULT IN YOUR BALLOT BEING DISQUALIFIED.
-Blank Ballots: A "None of the Above" option is available if you believe no one is worthy and you wish to submit a blank ballot. This option is not to be taken lightly and it is strongly urged that it be used only after the utmost consideration, as non-votes carry great weight. Additionally, if using this option, please post your rationale.

Thoughtfulness and Editing Ballots: Please review and thoughtfully consider the candidates before voting, and make sure you have accurately filled out your ballot before submitting. Requests for editing ballots after the fact will generally not be honored. Exceptions might be made if a voter accidentally voted for the wrong player or accidentally went over the voting limit (but I strongly encourage you to do your best to prevent either from happening).

Required Support: Players receiving at least 75% support in an election will be elected. Players need at least 5% support to stay on the ballot, with an exception for first-year eligible players, who will need at least 1 vote to appear on the next ballot.

Player Eligibility: Players eligible for an election will have last played at least 5 years prior to the election year and have appeared in at least 10 Major League seasons . If a player appeared in less than 10 seasons, he may still be eligible if he had a minimum of 3000 ABs or 1500 IP, though extra scrutiny will be applied. Players will remain on the ballot for 15 years, provided they continue to receive at least 5% of the vote, at which point they will become indefinitely eligible for periodic elections conducted by the Veterans Committee.
- Age Exception: For players 40 or older, they will become eligible the later of either 5 years after their last year of continuous play, or their first inactive year at age 45 or older.

Election Period: Elections will close exactly one week after starting. The next election might not commence for another day or two.


1929 Guide
There are 28 candidates on the 1929 ballot – 21 holdovers and 7 first timers. First time eligible players last played in 1924 (unless qualifying under the age rule).

First Timers (7)
Jake Daubert
Larry Gardner
Earl Hamilton
Ivy Olson
Jeff Pfeffer
Del Pratt
Amos Strunk

Holdovers (21)
Player Year of Eligibility Previous Support High Support Low Support Average Support
Jim Bagby 2nd 3.70% 3.70% (1928) 3.70% (1928) 3.70%
Chief Bender 8th 55.56% 55.56% (1928) 39.29% (1922) 45.96%
Bill Bradley 10th 11.11% 16.13% (1921) 10.71% (1927, 1922) 12.65%
Frank Chance 11th 62.96% 68.00% (1926) 48.28% (1924) 58.79%
Gavvy Cravath 5th 25.93% 37.50% (1925) 25.00% (1927) 30.11%
Mike Donlin 11th 11.11% 25.93% (1919) 7.14% (1927) 15.22%
Johnny Evers 4th 22.22% 40.00% (1926) 28.57% (1927) 30.26%
Art Fletcher 3rd 7.41% 7.41% (1928) 3.57% (1927) 5.49%
Clark Griffith 15th 48.15% 62.50% (1925) 32.00% (1915) 47.09%
Miller Huggins 9th 11.11% 20.83% (1925) 7.14% (1922) 14.79%
Addie Joss 15th 74.07% 74.07% (1919, 1928) 52.00% (1915) 63.86%
Johnny Kling 12th 18.52% 26.92% (1920) 9.68% (1921) 18.22%
Ed Konetchy 4th 11.11% 12.00% (1926) 10.71% (1927) 11.27%
Tommy Leach 8th 51.85% 51.85% (1928) 33.33% (1925) 40.03%
Ed Reulbach 8th 11.11% 17.24% (1924) 7.69% (1923) 11.11%
Reb Russell 2nd 7.41% 7.41% (1928) 7.41% (1928) 7.41%
Jimmy Sheckard 12th 25.93% 42.31% (1920) 25.00% (1927) 31.67%
Joe Tinker 9th 14.81% 25.00% (1925, 1927) 10.71% (1922) 20.68%
Hippo Vaughn 4th 18.52% 18.52% (1928) 10.71% (1927) 15.08%
Tilly Walker 2nd 3.70% 3.70% (1928) 3.70% (1928) 3.70%
Joe Wood 3rd 29.63% 35.71% (1927) 29.63% (1927) 32.67%

Holdovers Dropped from Last Election (1)
Player Reason Years on Ballot High Support Low Support Average Support
Roy Thomas Lack of Support 14 25.00% (1917) 3.70% (1928) 14.86%

Last Year of Eligibility (2)
Player High Support
Clark Griffith 62.50% (1925)
Addie Joss 74.07% (1919, 1928)

Penultimate Year of Eligibility (0)
Player High Support

Holdovers Receiving At Least 50% in the Previous Election (4)
Player 1928 Support Years with At Least 50% Support
Addie Joss 74.07% 14
Frank Chance 62.96% 9
Chief Bender 55.56% 2
Tommy Leach 51.85% 1

Hall of “Almost” - Players Receiving At Least 2/3 Support in an Election But Never Elected (4)
Player High Support “Almost Years” Last Year on Ballot
Addie Joss 74.07% (1919, 1928) 3
Hardy Richardson* 69.57% (1912) 3 1915
Frank Chance 68.00% (1926) 1
Jimmy Ryan 67.86% (1922) 1 1922

* = Elected by Veterans Committee


HALL OF FAMERS

Players Elected (66)
Player Year Elected Election Percentage Years on Ballot Position Primary Team Active Years Total Seasons Living/Deceased Age at Election
Cap Anson 1902 100% 1 First Base Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1871-1897 27 Deceased (1852-1922) 50
Frank Baker 1927 96.43% 1 Third Base Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1908-1914, 1916-1919, 1921-1922 13 Living - Age 43 41
Ross Barnes^ 1911 76.00% 11 Second Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879, 1881 9 Deceased (1850-1915) 61
Jake Beckley 1917 76.00% 6 First Base Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1887-1907 20 Deceased (1867-1918) 50
Charlie Bennett 1907 75.00% 7 Catcher Detroit Wolverines (NL) 1878, 1880-1893 15 Deceased (1854-1927) 53
Roger Bresnahan 1925 79.17% 6 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1897, 1900-1915 17 Living - Age 50 46
Dan Brouthers 1901 90.00% 1 First Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1896, 1904 18 Living – Age 71 50
Mordecai Brown 1921 96.77% 1 Pitcher Chicago Cubs (NL) 1903-1916 14 Living – Age 53 45
Pete Browning 1909 77.27% 9 Center Field/Left Field Louisville Colonels (NL/AA) 1882-1894 13 Deceased (1861-1905) Deceased
Jesse Burkett 1910 92.00% 1 Left field Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1890-1905 16 Living – Age 61 42
Bob Caruthers 1909 77.27% 9 Pitcher/Right Field St. Louis Browns (Cardinals) (NL/AA) 1884-1893 10 Deceased (1864-1911) 45
Cupid Childs 1920 76.92% 15 Second Base Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1888, 1890-1901 13 Deceased (1867-1912) Deceased
Fred Clarke 1917 88.00% 1 Left Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1894-1915 21 Living – Age 61 45
John Clarkson 1901 90.00% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1882, 1884-1894 12 Deceased (1861-1909) 40
Jimmy Collins 1913 82.61% 1 Third Base Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1895-1908 14 Living – Age 59 43
Roger Connor 1902 79.17% 1 First Base New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Living – Age 72 45
Sam Crawford 1922 92.86% 1 Right Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1899-1917 19 Living – Age 49 41
Bill Dahlen 1916 88.00% 1 Shortstop Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1891-1911 21 Living – Age 59 46
George Davis 1914 84.62% 1 Shortstop New York Giants (NL) 1890-1909 20 Living – Age 59 44
Ed Delahanty 1908 96.00% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1903 16 Deceased (1867-1903) Deceased
Larry Doyle 1926 76.00% 2 Second Base New York Giants (NL) 1907-1920 14 Living - Age 43 40
Hugh Duffy 1918 75.00% 8 Center Field/Outfield Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1888-1901, 1904-1906 17 Living – Age 63 52
Buck Ewing 1902 83.33% 1 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Deceased (1859-1906) 43
Elmer Flick 1916 80.00% 1 Right Field Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1898-1910 13 Living – Age 53 40
Pud Galvin 1903 80.77% 3 Pitcher Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1875, 1879-1892 15 Deceased (1856-1902) Deceased
Jack Glasscock 1911 84.00% 11 Shortstop Cleveland Blues (NL) 1879-1895 17 Living – Age 72 54
George Gore 1909 77.27% 9 Center Field Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1879-1892 14 Living – Age 72 52
Hughie Jennings 1927 75.00% 14 Shortstop Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1891-1903, 1907, 1909, 1912, 1918 17 Deceased (1869-1928) 58
Billy Hamilton 1906 82.61% 1 Center Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1901 14 Living – Age 63 40
Paul Hines 1904 76.00% 4 Center Field Providence Grays (NL) 1872-1891 20 Living – Age 74 49
Tim Keefe 1901 75.00% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1893 14 Living – Age 72 44
Willie Keeler 1916 92.00% 2 Right Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1892-1910 19 Deceased (1872-1923) 44
Joe Kelley 1920 84.62% 8 Left Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1891-1906, 1908 17 Living – Age 58 49
King Kelly 1902 75.00% 2 Right Field/Catcher Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1878-1893 16 Deceased (1857-1894) Deceased
Napoleon Lajoie 1921 96.77% 1 Second Base Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1896-1916 21 Living – Age 55 47
Herman Long* 1925 (VC) 75.00% VC Shortstop Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1889-1904 16 Deceased (1866-1909) Deceased
Sherry Magee 1924 86.21% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1904-1919 16 Deceased (1884-1929) 40
Christy Mathewson 1922 93.55% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1900-1916 17 Deceased (1880-1925) 41
Joe McGinnity 1913 91.30% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1899-1908 10 Deceased (1871-1929) 42
Bid McPhee 1905 75.00% 2 Second Base Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1882-1899 18 Living – Age 70 46
Cal McVey*^ 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Catcher/First Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879 9 Deceased (1849-1926) 71
Tony Mullane 1908 80.00% 8 Pitcher Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1881-1894 14 Living – Age 69 49
Kid Nichols 1911 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1890-1901, 1904-1906 15 Living – Age 60 42
Jim O’Rourke 1901 90.00% 1 Left Field/Utility New York Giants (NL) 1872-1893, 1904 23 Deceased (1850-1919) 51
Dickey Pearce*^ 1920 (VC) 100% VC Shortstop Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) 1871-1877 7 Deceased (1836-1908) Deceased
Lip Pike*^ 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Center Field Baltimore Canaries (NA) 1871-1878, 1881, 1887 10 Deceased (1845-1893) Deceased
Eddie Plank 1922 92.86% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1901-1917 17 Deceased (1875-1926) 47
Charley Radbourn 1901 95.00% 1 Pitcher Providence Grays (NL) 1881-1891 11 Deceased (1854-1897) Deceased
Hardy Richardson* 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC Second Base/Left Field Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1892 14 Living – Age 74 65
Amos Rusie 1906 78.26% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1889-1895, 1897-1898, 1901 10 Living – Age 58 30
Al Spalding^ 1915 80.00% 15 Pitcher Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1878 8 Deceased (1850-1915) Deceased
Joe Start*^ 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC First Base Providence Grays (NL) 1871-1886 16 Deceased (1842-1927) 78
Harry Stovey 1907 75.00% 7 Left Field/First Base Philadelphia Athletics (AA) 1880-1893 14 Living – Age 73 51
Ezra Sutton* 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Third Base Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1871-1888 18 Deceased (1850-1907) Deceased
Sam Thompson 1907 79.17% 5 Right Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1885-1898, 1906 15 Deceased (1860-1922) 47
George Van Haltren 1918 75.00% 11 Center Field New York Giants (NL) 1887-1903 17 Living – Age 63 52
Rube Waddell 1915 84.00% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1897, 1899-1910 13 Deceased (1876-1914) Deceased
Honus Wagner 1922 92.86% 1 Shortstop Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1897-1917 21 Living – Age 55 48
Bobby Wallace 1925 75.00% 3 Shortstop St. Louis Browns (AL) 1894-1918 25 Living - Age 56 52
Ed Walsh 1922 89.29% 1 Pitcher Chicago White Sox (AL) 1904-1917 14 Living – Age 48 41
John Ward 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop/Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1878-1894 17 Deceased (1860-1925) 47
Mickey Welch* 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1892 13 Living – Age 70 61
Deacon White^ 1904 76.00% 4 Catcher/Third Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1871-1890 20 Living – Age 82 57
Vic Willis 1919 77.78% 5 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1898-1910 13 Living – Age 53 43
George Wright^ 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1882 12 Living – Age 82 60
Cy Young 1916 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1890-1911 22 Living – Age 62 49

* = Elected by Veterans Committee
^ = Played Significantly Prior to 1871

Players Elected by Primary Position
Catcher (5): Charlie Bennett, Roger Bresnahan, Buck Ewing, Cal McVey, Deacon White
First Base (5): Cap Anson, Jake Beckley, Dan Brouthers, Roger Conner, Joe Start
Second Base (6): Ross Barnes, Cupid Childs, Larry Doyle, Napoleon Lajoie, Bid McPhee, Hardy Richardson
Third Base (3): Frank Baker, Jimmy Collins, Ezra Sutton
Shortstop (10): Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Jack Glasscock, Hughie Jennings, Herman Long, Dickey Pearce, John Ward, Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace, George Wright
Left Field (7): Jesse Burkett, Fred Clarke, Ed Delahanty, Joe Kelley, Sherry Magee, Jim O'Rourke, Harry Stovey
Center Field (7): Pete Browning, Hugh Duffy, George Gore, Billy Hamilton, Paul Hines, Lip Pike, George Van Haltren
Right Field (5): Sam Crawford, King Kelly, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Sam Thompson
Pitcher (18): Mordecai Brown, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Pud Galvin, Tim Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Tony Mullane, Kid Nichols, Eddie Plank, Charley Radbourn, Amos Rusie, Al Spalding, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh, Mickey Welch, Vic Willis, Cy Young

Players Elected by Year
1901 (5): Dan Brouthers, John Clarkson, Tim Keefe, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn
1902 (4): Cap Anson, Roger Conner, Buck Ewing, King Kelly
1903 (1): Pud Galvin
1904 (2): Paul Hines, Deacon White
1905 (1): Bid McPhee
1906 (2): Billy Hamilton, Amos Rusie
1907 (5): Charlie Bennett, Harry Stovey, Sam Thompson, John Ward, George Wright
1908 (2): Ed Delahanty, Tony Mullane
1909 (3): Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, George Gore
1910 (1): Jesse Burkett
1911 (3): Ross Barnes, Jack Glasscock, Kid Nichols
1912 (0):
1913 (2): Jimmy Collins, Joe McGinnity
1914 (1): George Davis
1915 (2): Al Spalding, Rube Waddell
1916 (4): Bill Dahlen, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Cy Young
1917 (2): Jake Beckley, Fred Clarke
1918 (2): Hugh Duffy, George Van Haltren
1919 (1): Vic Willis
1920 (2): Cupid Childs, Joe Kelley
- 1920 VC (7): Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Hardy Richardson, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Mickey Welch
1921 (3): Mordecai Brown, Napoleon Lajoie, Christy Mathewson
1922 (4): Sam Crawford, Eddie Plank, Honus Wagner, Ed Walsh
1923 (0):
1924 (1): Sherry Magee
1925 (2): Roger Bresnahan, Bobby Wallace
- 1925 VC (1): Herman Long
1926 (1): Larry Doyle
1927 (2): Frank Baker, Hughie Jennings
1928 (0):

Players Elected by Primary Decade
1870s (9): Ross Barnes, Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Al Spalding, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Deacon White, George Wright
1880s (21): Cap Anson, Charlie Bennett, Dan Brouthers, Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Roger Conner, Buck Ewing, Pud Galvin, Jack Glasscock, George Gore, Paul Hines, Tim Keefe, King Kelly, Tony Mullane, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn, Hardy Richardson, Harry Stovey, John Ward, Mickey Welch
1890s (16): Jake Beckley, Jesse Burkett, Cupid Childs, Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Ed Delahanty, Hugh Duffy, Billy Hamilton, Hughie Jennings, Joe Kelley, Herman Long, Bid McPhee, Kid Nichols, Amos Rusie, Sam Thompson, George Van Haltren
1900s (17): Roger Bresnahan, Mordecai Brown, Fred Clarke, Jimmy Collins, Sam Crawford, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Napoleon Lajoie, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Eddie Plank, Rube Waddell , Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace, Ed Walsh, Vic Willis, Cy Young
1910s (3): Frank Baker, Larry Doyle, Sherry Magee

Players Elected by Primary Organization
Baltimore Canaries (NA) (1): Lip Pike
Baltimore Orioles (NL) (3): Hughie Jennings, Willie Keeler, Joe Kelley
Boston Braves (fka Beaneaters) (NL) (6): John Clarkson, Hugh Duffy, Herman Long, Kid Nichols, Ezra Sutton, Vic Willis
Boston Red Sox (fka Americans) (AL) (2): Jimmy Collins, Cy Young
Boston Red Stockings (NA) (4): Ross Barnes, Cal McVey, Al Spalding, George Wright
Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) (1): Dickey Pearce
Buffalo Bisons (NL) (4): Dan Brouthers, Pud Galvin, Hardy Richardson, Deacon White
Chicago Cubs (fka White Stockings, Colts) (NL) (5): Cap Anson, Mordecai Brown, Bill Dahlen, George Gore, King Kelly
Chicago White Sox (AL) (1): Ed Walsh
Cincinnati Reds (NL, AA) (2): Bid McPhee, Tony Mullane
Cleveland Blues (NL) (1): Jack Glasscock
Cleveland Indians (fka Naps) (AL) (2): Elmer Flick, Napoleon Lajoie
Cleveland Spiders (NL) (2): Jesse Burkett, Cupid Childs
Detroit Tigers (AL) (1): Sam Crawford
Detroit Wolverines (NL) (1): Charlie Bennett
Louisville Colonels (NL, AA) (1): Pete Browning
New York Giants (NL) (13): Roger Bresnahan, Roger Connor, George Davis, Larry Doyle, Buck Ewing, Tim Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Jim O’Rourke, Amos Rusie, George Van Haltren, John Ward, Mickey Welch
Philadelphia Athletics (AL) (3): Frank Baker, Eddie Plank, Rube Waddell
Philadelphia Athletics (AA) (1): Harry Stovey
Philadelphia Phillies (NL) (4): Ed Delahanty, Billy Hamilton, Sherry Magee, Sam Thompson
Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) (3): Jake Beckley, Fred Clarke, Honus Wagner
Providence Grays (NL) (3): Paul Hines, Charley Radbourn, Joe Start
St. Louis Browns (AL) (1): Bobby Wallace
St. Louis Cardinals (fka Browns) (NL, AA) (1): Bob Caruthers


Miscellaneous Information
- Highest Regular Election Percentage: Cap Anson, Kid Nichols, Cy Young – 100%
- Number of 1st Ballot Electees: 29
- Number of Electees with At Least 90% Support: 18
- Average Regular Election Percentage: 83.86%
- Most Years on Ballot Before Election: Cupid Childs, Al Spalding – 15
- Number of Players Elected After 10 Years on Ballot: 6
- Average Wait Before Election: 3.98 Years
- Number of Players Lasting 15 Years on Ballot without Election: 16
- Number of Players Elected by Veterans Committee: 8
- Average Electees per Veterans Committee Election: 4
- Highest Percentage Among Players Not Elected: Addie Joss – 74.07% (1919, 1928)
- Highest Average Percentage Among Players Not Elected: Addie Joss - 63.86%
- Most Regular Election Electees in One Year: 5 (1901, 1907)
- Fewest Regular Election Electees in One Year: 0 (1912, 1923, 1928)
- Average Regular Election Electees Per Year: 2.07
- Largest Ballot: 78 Players (1901)
- Smallest Ballot: 23 Players (1918)
- Most Votes Cast: 31 (1921)
- Fewest Votes Cast: 20 (1901)
- Average Votes Cast: 25.18
- Team With Most Players Elected: New York Giants - 13
- Team With Second Most Players Elected: Boston Braves (fka Beaneaters) - 6
- Electee with Longest Post-1871 Career: Cap Anson – 27 Seasons
- Electee with Shortest Post-1871 Career: Dickey Pearce – 8 Seasons
- Average Post-1871 Career Length of Electees: 15.71 Seasons
- Youngest Elected Player: Amos Rusie – Age 35
- Oldest Elected Player: Joe Start – 78
- Average Age at Election: 48.41
- Number of Posthumously Elected Players: 12
- Number of Living Hall of Famers: 38
- Oldest Living Hall of Famer: Deacon White, George Wright - 82
- Deceased in Past Year: Sherry Magee, Joe McGinnity

Number of Ballots Submitted in Past Elections
1901: 20
1902: 24
1903: 26
1904: 25
1905: 24
1906: 23
1907: 24
1908: 25
1909: 22
1910: 25
1911: 25
1912: 23
1913: 23
1914: 26
1915: 25
1916: 25
1917: 25
1918: 24
1919: 27
1920: 26
1921: 31
1922: 28
1923: 25
1924: 29
1925: 24
1926: 25
1927: 28
1928: 27

Links to Past Elections (10)
1901 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77167)
1902 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77464)
1903 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77797)
1904 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78133)
1905 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78417)
1906 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78737)
1907 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79020)
1908 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79393)
1909 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79738)
1910 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80134)
1911 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80597)
1912 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81008)
1913 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81477)
1914 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81965)
1915 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82365)
1916 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82681)
1917 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82940)
1918 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83241)
1919 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83422)
1920 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83665), 1920 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83697)
1921 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83924)
1922 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84099)
1923 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84257)
1924 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84423)
1925 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84552), 1925 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84636)
1926 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84727)
1927 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84871)
1928 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85029)

[DoubleX]

Given that last year, Joss for the second time came within 1% of election, and this being his last year on the ballot, I'll again state the case for him (note: this is not aimed at Mark :)).

First, He's come as close as one can get to election without being elected - three times over 70% and twice now over 74%. In that respect, it would seem almost criminal to let someone get so close but not let them in. But that's not the crux of my argument. Instead, I'll respond to some of the reservations that have been mentioned about Joss:

1) Joss didn't pitch for at least 10 years.

This doesn't fly here. I understand that some people might be uncomfortable with electing someone who didn't play at least 10 years, as that is the Cooperstown standard, but for this project, Cooperstown for all intents and purposes does not exist (even so, Cooperstown saw fit to make an exception for Joss anyway, which should say something about the high regard for Joss). We are the Hall of Fame, and 10 years is not our standard. Here, if a player did not play at least 10 years, he can be eligible if he pitched at least 1500 innings or had at least 3000 ABs. Extra scrutiny will apply in these situations. Joss had 2300+ innings pitched, so he fits the bill.

I also don't get why some people might be more comfortable voting for Joss if he lived and pitched maybe 3-5 additional mediocre years. In that situation, his Hall of Fame case would still be predicated on the amazing peak of the first 8 years of his career - that period would not change.

Additionally, given the fact that his career ended due to death, I don't think the shortness of it should be held against him. Death is fairly drastic to say the least. Some have mentioned that Joss may not have been able to continue due to his arm troubles, but I earlier produced a contemporaneous report that Joss' arm was doing much better and everything indicated that he would play at least in 1911. In sum, I don't think his lack of longevity should be held against him, given that the cause was death. And regardless, his peak was great and of a Hall of Fame level - when you're judging a pitcher, peak is one of the first things you look at, and Joss has it regardless of the length of his career, IMO.

I also don't think death can be equated to injury or just walking away. A chooses to walk away and can at least attempt to pitch through injury (as many pitches do, perhaps for several years). In death, Joss didn't get a choice about his career, and didn't have the opportunity to pitch through injury (assuming his arm was still injured).

2) Joss wasn't a workhorse.

I admit, this is something a valid argument. Joss only twice finished in the top 5 in IP. However, he wasn't terrible in racking up innings, averaging a very respectable 278 IP over the first 8 seasons of his career, twice reaching at least 325 (his last season he pitched just 107 due to injury).

What's more important, however, is the quality of the innings he did pitch. I don't see how one can say that a 142 ERA+ over 2300+ innings is not impressive. That's quite a peak, and over the course of 9 consecutive seasons no less. Joss' great ERA+ during that time, makes up for the IP advantage that other pitchers might have, because not many pitchers are going to have a 142 ERA+ over a period of 9 consecutive years (maybe their 9 best strung together, but consecutive is more rare).

In his best 5 seasons, Joss' ERA+ was 161. I don't see how that's not impressive. Again, he may have left innings out there, but the extreme high quality of the innings he did pitch, does make up for much of that. Would someone who pitched may 200 extra innings but with an ERA+ of say 130 really be more impressive?

Additionally, 5 times Joss finished in the top 3 in ERA+, and 8 times in the top 7. 4 times Joss finished in the top 2 in WHIP, and 8 times in the top 5. And for what it's worth, Joss has the all time lowest career WHIP. Granted, his career WHIP would have been higher had his career been longer, but he has a 32 point lead in WHIP over the next guy (Ed Walsh) and is the only qualifying player under 1. In all, it's quite a run for a 9 year career, and again speaks to the very high level of the innings he did pitch.

Moreover, Joss finished an incredible 90% of the games he started and had a shutout in almost 1 out of every 5. Just imagine that - Joss would finish 9 out of every 10 starts and hurl a shutout in nearly 1 out of every 5. That's impressive (and higher than his contemporaries).

3) Was Joss considered a star in his own time?

I believe I produced some contemporaneous accounts of this several threads ago, so I'll try to dig them up. What sticks out the most to me is that after Joss died, his peers held him in high enough esteem to hold what was essentially the first all star game in his honor. The biggest names in the game at the time came from all over to play an exhibition in Cleveland to honor Joss and raise money for his family. That says a lot to me about how Joss was regarded.

[jjpm74]

I'd like to hear some thoughts/impressions on Addie Joss, Ed Konetchy and Larry Gardner before casting my ballot. So far, these are my only definites:

Chief Bender
Frank Chance
Jake Daubert
Art Fletcher
Clark Griffith
Johnny Kling
Tommy Leach
Jimmy Sheckard

[DoubleX]

I'd like to hear some thoughts/impressions on Addie Joss, Ed Konetchy and Larry Gardner before casting my ballot. So far, these are my only definites:

I made the case for Joss above (same as last election). You have been voting for him though perhaps not regularly. It's his last election, he's twice come within 1% of election. He's also an infinitely better candidate than Bender, who I also made the case against last election, but he's on your list. The subjective fame factor for Bender just doesn't make up the for the fact that he flat out wasn't that good and in many years wasn't better than the 4th (or even 5th) starter on his own team. To vote for Bender and leave Joss off at this juncture just seems mean.

Personally, to now have a guy twice get over 74% but not elected, doesn't speak well of us as an electorate. It makes us look fickle, IMO, particularly given the fluctuation.

[BlueBlood]

Speaking of those two... :laugh

1. Bender, P
2. Joss, P

Ranked By # of Ballot Appearances:

Fifteen (1915 onward) - Addie Joss
Eight (1922 onward) - Chief Bender

[Domenic]

Frank Chance
Gavvy Cravath
Addie Joss
Tommy Leach
Joe Wood

[Cowtipper]

Bender
Chance
Cravath
Daubert
Donlin
Griffith
Joss
Leach
Reulbach
Wood

[jjpm74]

I made the case for Joss above (same as last election). You have been voting for him though perhaps not regularly. It's his last election, he's twice come within 1% of election. He's also an infinitely better candidate than Bender, who I also made the case against last election, but he's on your list. The subjective fame factor for Bender just doesn't make up the for the fact that he flat out wasn't that good and in many years wasn't better than the 4th (or even 5th) starter on his own team. To vote for Bender and leave Joss off at this juncture just seems mean.

Personally, to now have a guy twice get over 74% but not elected, doesn't speak well of us as an electorate. It makes us look fickle, IMO, particularly given the fluctuation.

Trying to guilt people into voting (suggesting that not voting for a person in year 15 is mean, implying that not voting for a player who died young is deplorable) will not win any supporters to your cause.

You keep presenting Joss' case as a stand alone case. Joss being elected would redefine our standards, effectively lowering them. We are 28 years into this so our standards, while not set in stone, are more defined than they were at the beginning of this project. Right now, the closest to Joss career and peak wise who has been elected is Joe McGinnity and arguably John Clarkson. If you want to win over votes (and this applies to the VC as well if Joss isn't elected), compare Joss to those two or any other short career guys we elected.

[DoubleX]

Trying to guilt people into voting (suggesting that not voting for a person in year 15 is mean, implying that not voting for a player who died young is deplorable) will not win any supporters to your cause.

First, I never implied that not voting for a player who died young is deplorable. I have said that a career ended to sudden death cannot be equated to a career ended due to injury, as in death you don't even have the luxury of being injured. It's fairly aggravating that you would twist my words so heinously.

Second, I do think it is in some ways mean to not elect a player that has come so close. Let's assume for a moment that this is a real exercise that means something and affects real people. Perhaps this honor does represent a great deal to Joss' family members. Try to empathize with them - how would you feel seeing your loved one come as close as one can get to the greatest recognition awarded in his profession, twice now, but not get over the threshold? It wouldn't seem like a tease to you? Would you be able to take the process seriously when you see him get 74% one year and under 65% the next? It wouldn't strike you as at least somewhat arbitrary?

If you haven't been voting for Joss all along, despite arguments, fine, you're true to your convictions. That's much easier to understand. But the vacillating that's been going on has been largely unexplained. What makes him worthy in 1928 but not 1929? When there's so much vacillating, it starts to look arbitrary, meaning perhaps many of our elections are arbitrary - not based on conviction, but by the fortunate coincidence that enough people vacillated in favor of the player in that particular year.

You keep presenting Joss' case as a stand alone case. Joss being elected would redefine our standards, effectively lowering them. We are 28 years into this so our standards, while not set in stone, are more defined than they were at the beginning of this project. Right now, the closest to Joss career and peak wise who has been elected is Joe McGinnity and arguably John Clarkson. If you want to win over votes (and this applies to the VC as well if Joss isn't elected), compare Joss to those two or any other short career guys we elected.

I've laid out my case for Joss, the reasons I believe he's worthy. Perhaps you would like to offer the case for vacillating? The case for why he was worthy in 13 of his 14 years of eligibility, but is suddenly questionable now? I think this sudden change, in his last year of eligibility no less (after we've had a long time to think about Joss), deserves an explanation more than anything I've said.

[jjpm74]

I've laid out my case for Joss, the reasons I believe he's worthy. Perhaps you would like to offer the case for vacillating? The case for why he was worthy in 13 of his 14 years of eligibility, but is suddenly questionable now? I think this sudden change, in his last year of eligibility no less (after we've had a long time to think about Joss), deserves an explanation more than anything I've said.

Please point out where you convincingly argued that Joss was a better pitcher than the weakest pitchers we have already elected. Maybe I missed it. This is why I'm not convinced in the case of Joss and why I'm on the fence.

[DoubleX]

Please point out where you convincingly argued that Joss was a better pitcher than the weakest pitchers we have already elected. Maybe I missed it. This is why I'm not convinced in the case of Joss and why I'm on the fence.

I've laid out my case as to why I feel Joss makes it, doesn't matter if he's the weakest or strongest, just why I feel he's worthy of being inducted.

Now like I asked you above, I'd love to hear why he was worthy for you in 13 out of 14 years, but not now? After all this time of thinking about Joss, with him being so close to election, why now do you go on the other side of the fence? If you were on the fence all along, I just don't understand why you would decide now to not support him.

[Brooklyn]

Adie Joss.

I posted this last time. Unless I'm misunderstanding why people aren't voting for him, this still seems to hold



The big argument agaisnt him seems to be the workhorse issue.

From 1902-1909, he totaled 2,219.7 innings pitched, good enough for 10th best over that period. Granted, that is somewhat biased as it picks the years of his career, but still shows he wasn't as bad as innings wise as it is being perceived

If you look at his 5 best year, 1905-1909, he has the 6th most innings pitched over that period, behind George Mullin (a league average pitcher who through a lot of inning) and 4 HOFers (matthewson, Willis, Young and Walsh).

So he might not have been on the leaderboard on most individual years, but the guys beating him every year couldn't sustain it year in and year out.

I see his peak being good enough that he deserves to be in. I agree wtih DoubleX that if he pitched 5 or so more mediocre years, he would have likely gotten to the 240 or so win range, and get his ERA at a still high level, and would have looked like a much better candidate - and as Double X stated, we'd all be looking at his peak, not those 5 extra years

[jjpm74]

I've laid out my case as to why I feel Joss makes it, doesn't matter if he's the weakest or strongest, just why I feel he's worthy of being inducted.

Now like I asked you above, I'd love to hear why he was worthy for you in 13 out of 14 years, but not now? After all this time of thinking about Joss, with him being so close to election, why now do you go on the other side of the fence? If you were on the fence all along, I just don't understand why you would decide now to not support him.

The past few elections, I have been comparing Joss to the pitchers who we elected. I've been focusing on ERA+, career length, IP, CG relative to the pitcher's given era, etc...

Joss is below the standards of any pitcher we have elected. My definition of a HOFer (and this is something that has been cemented over the past 13 elections) is someone who is comparable to or better than the weakest players we have already elected. Addie Joss falls below that line.

I also did not state that I will not be voting for him. I am looking for a reason to vote for him that falls into the parameters of my working definition of what a HOFer is in this project. Can you, or anyone else here show me how Joss is comparable to the weakest players elected? If so, he has my vote. If not, he does not have my vote.

As for the rest of my ballot, only Tommy Leach, Frank Chance and Jimmy Sheckard are assured a spot for the duration of the elections beyond this year. The reason I vote for players like Chief Bender, Jake Daubert, Art Fletcher, and Johnny Kling is to keep them active on the ballot long enough to study their careers closer and see if they are also above or below that standard (and to keep some conversation possible over these very trim years). It has nothing to do with how many years they spend on the ballot. These elections are only a week in real time even though we are simulating a year and the enjoyment I get out of this project is in studying stars from another era that don't often show in in your typical HOF conversation.

[DoubleX]

I still don't understand why exactly you've been voting for Joss 13 of the last 14 years, and now suddenly you need to be persuaded? What exactly compelled you to vote for him in those 13 previous elections? After all this time to think about Joss, it just seems like an odd time to waiver.

As for Bender, he's getting plenty of support, so he doesn't need your help to stick on the ballot. He's a much inferior candidate to Joss, IMO.

[jjpm74]

I still don't understand why exactly you've been voting for Joss 13 of the last 14 years, and now suddenly you need to be persuaded? What exactly compelled you to vote for him in those 13 previous elections? After all this time to think about Joss, it just seems like an odd time to waiver.

No more odd than when someone consistently votes 10 minutes before the deadline and claims it's just a coincidence. ;)

Joss is not the first person I've considered dropping from my ballot and he's far from being the last. As for what "compelled" me to vote for him in previous years, lack of definition for our hall, lack of time to look at him closer. The size of our hall has literally doubled over the course of Joss' tenure on the ballot in case you haven't noticed.

[PVNICK]

Bender
Chance
Evers
Joss
Kling
Leach
Sheckard

While Pratt, Gardner and Daubert are worthy of consideration I held off for the time being. Vaughn and Konetchy fall into this category as well for me.

[Freakshow]

Nobody was elected. Thomas expired from lack of support. Taking his place is newbie Pratt.

Bender
Chance
Cravath
Evers
Griffith
Huggins
Joss
Kling
Konetchy
Leach
Pratt
Sheckard
Tinker
H. Vaughn
Wood

[jalbright]

Tommy Leach

[NineWorldSeries]

Bender
Griffith
Joss

[BlueBlood]

No more odd than when someone consistently votes 10 minutes before the deadline and claims it's just a coincidence. ;)

:laugh

You say what everyone's been thinking. :clapping

[DoubleX]

Joss is not the first person I've considered dropping from my ballot and he's far from being the last. As for what "compelled" me to vote for him in previous years, lack of definition for our hall, lack of time to look at him closer. The size of our hall has literally doubled over the course of Joss' tenure on the ballot in case you haven't noticed.

The Hall has grown greatly, which makes sense since the Hall was in it's 15th year when Joss became eligible and in it's 30th now. Still, we haven't elected a pitcher in 7 years and our rate of growth has been much slower during that time. So there would appear to have been plenty of time to assess how Joss measures up to our HoF pitching standard.

I actually think our standard at pitcher is higher that at most other positions. I don't think we've really extended ourselves as we have in a few other places.

[henrich]

5 for me this time

1. Bender
2. Gardner
3. Joss
4. Leach
5. Reulbach

[jjpm74]

The Hall has grown greatly, which makes sense since the Hall was in it's 15th year when Joss became eligible and in it's 30th now. Still, we haven't elected a pitcher in 7 years and our rate of growth has been much slower during that time. So there would appear to have been plenty of time to assess how Joss measures up to our HoF pitching standard.

I actually think our standard at pitcher is higher that at most other positions. I don't think we've really extended ourselves as we have in a few other places.

I ultimately ended up giving Joss the benefit of the doubt here, but I think his case would be greatly helped if you or someone else here with a better database of statistics than me could post how he compares to the pitchers we have elected so far. There are at least 3 people who, in the past few elections did not vote for him, but said they would pending a compelling argument in his favor.

Joss barely managed 8 full seasons and this is a difficult hurdle to clear death or no death:


Pitcher IP

Cy Young 7354.7
Pud Galvin 6003.3
Kid Nichols 5056.3
Tim Keefe 5047.7
Mickey Welch 4802.0
Christy Mathewson 4780.7
John Clarkson 4536.3
Charley Radbourn 4535.3
Tony Mullane 4531.3
Eddie Plank 4495.7
Vic Willis 3996.0
Amos Rusie 3769.7
Joe McGinnity 3441.3
Mordecai Brown 3172.3
Ed Walsh 2964.3
Rube Waddell 2961.3
Al Spalding 2890.7
Bob Caruthers 2828.7
Addie Joss 2327.0

And as I stated last year, I do not believe that the VC is the place to reinvent our standards so barring an argument that convinces me that he belongs in that group, he will not have my vote on the final 1930 ballot.

[jalbright]

Here's a comparison of Joss to his top contemporary pitchers:


Pitcher.... career best 3 5consec bl ink gr ink HOF stds
W Johnson 564 143 217 150 420 82
Cy Young.. 635 127 200 100 472 82
Alexander 477 127 180 126 339 77
Mathewson 426 115 161 92 352 84
Plank....... 360 89 133 15 291 71
M Brown... 296 105 163 35 195 56
Walsh..... 265 124 177 67 172 52
McGinnity 269 117 162 64 190 50
Willis....... 293 101 138 25 204 43
Waddell.... 240 100 145 46 158 47
Chesbro.... 209 103 143 27 130 40
Bender..... 231 70 100 17 158 51

Joss........ 191 88 131 19 143 47
Marquard... 208 78 93 11 150 31


The killer for me is Joss can't top Chesbro, and really only matches up well with Bender and Marquard. In short, he's not at the top of the Chesbro/ Marquard/ Joss/ Bender group, and none of them are in this Hall. If you want to add somebody, start with Chesbro. I'm not going to do, that, either, so I won't be voting for Joss.

[dgarza]

Chief Bender
Frank Chance
Gavvy Cravath
Mike Donlin
Johnny Evers
Addie Joss
Joe Tinker


1 Addie Joss
2. Gavvy Cravath
3. Chief Bender
4. Mike Donlin
5. Johnny Evers
6. Joe Tinker
7. Frank Chance

[bambambaseball]

Anyone not voting for Addie Joss is crazy. Hes easily the best pitcher there.

[jjpm74]

Anyone not voting for Addie Joss is crazy. Hes easily the best pitcher there.

First of all, best by position on the ballot doesn't mean anything. If it did, Bill Bradley, Johnny Kling and Larry Gardner wouldn't be fighting for their lives. Secondly, Clark Griffith blows Addie Joss out of the water in terms of career value for pitchers currently on the ballot.

[leecemark]

Anyone not voting for Addie Joss is crazy. Hes easily the best pitcher there.

--A compelling and rational argument:crazy.

[bambambaseball]

First of all, best by position on the ballot doesn't mean anything. If it did, Bill Bradley, Johnny Kling and Larry Gardner wouldn't be fighting for their lives. Secondly, Clark Griffith blows Addie Joss out of the water in terms of career value for pitchers currently on the ballot.

Addie Joss was a lot beter then Clark Griffith. Thats crazy. :crazy

[jjpm74]

Addie Joss was a lot beter then Clark Griffith. Thats crazy. :crazy

Ummm...okay and this is true because :confused:

[PVNICK]

not that ERA+ is the be all and end all but Griffiths 121 avg is bettered every year by Joss by 9+ points every year but his first and last. I would think that is the strongest point in Joss' favor the second would be that Joss' 142 was bettered 2x includign a partial season in 1905 and on one other occasion did he come within 8 points.

[AG2004]

No more odd than when someone consistently votes 10 minutes before the deadline and claims it's just a coincidence. ;)


Last year, I sent my ballot in six or seven hours before the deadline. It was not the first time that I did not wait until past 11:00 P.M. on December 31 to rush to the nearest Western Union office to send a telegram. There have been many times that I have rushed to the office as early as 6:00 P.M. on December 31.

[Paul Wendt]

After 20 ballots cast, we have 121 votes or 6 votes per ballot.

That includes 52 votes for primary pitchers (2.6 per ballot) and 69 for other players (3.5 per ballot).

There is no systematic difference between the posted ballots and the secret ballots, neither in size (number of votes) nor in preference for pitchers.

There is a strong systematic relation between size of ballot and preference for pitchers.

Here are the ballot sizes, or numbers of votes cast.
15, 15 ; 10, 10, 10 ; 7, 7, 7, 6, 5, 5, 5, 4, 4 ; 3, 3, 2, 1, 1, 1

The five full and medium-size ballots (sum 60 votes, 12 per ballot) show 23 votes for pitchers and 37 for all others. The fifteen small and tiny ballots (61 votes, 4 per ballot) show 29 votes for pitchers and 32 for all others. Further analysis shows that the six tiny ballots (11 votes, 2 per ballot) show 9 votes for pitchers and only 2 for all other players!

Pitch : other
: 52 : 69 , sum 121 votes on 20 ballots
: 23 : 37 , sum 60 votes on six full or medium size ballots (precisely 15 or 10 votes, so far)
: 20 : 30 , sum 50 votes on eight small but not tiny ballots (only 4 to 7 votes)
: _9 : _2 , sum 11 votes on six tiny ballots (1 to 3 votes)

What are the standings on those six tiny ballots alone?
3, Bender
3, Joss
2, Griffith
1, Wood
1, Huggins
1, Leach

Four of the tiny ballots have been posted. For the other two, search for 'gman5431' and 'HecDel' in the voting details.

By the way I last voted in 1927, casting a full ballot with 1 vote for a pitcher and 14 for other players.

[AstrosFan]

Chance
Griffith
Leach
Sheckard

Chance and Griffith got bonus points for contributions beyond playing.

[Phish]

1. Joss
2. Chance

Nobody else on that list deserves to be in the HoF. Chance barely makes the cut for me

[DoubleX]

Next year is a pretty big group, but also pretty mediocre. Bobby Veach is really the lone standout, IMO.

Rube Benton
George Burns
Shano Collins
Dave Danforth - Likely won't be on ballot
Joe Evans - Likely won't be on ballot
Max Flack
Tommy Griffith
Walter Holke - May not be on ballot
Harry Hooper
Ernie Johnson - Likely won't be on ballot
Nemo Leibold
Dutch Leonard
Rube Marqaurd
Hy Myers
Joe Oeschger - Likely won't be on ballot
Allen Russell - Likely won't be on ballot
Walter Schmidt - Likely won't be on ballot
Joe Schultz - Likely won't be on ballot
Howie Shanks
Elmer Smith
Casey Stengel
Bobby Veach
Roxy Walters - Likely won't be on ballot

[philkid3]

Chief Bender
Bill Bradley
Frank Chance
Art Fletcher
Addie Joss
Tommy Leach
Joe Tinker
Jimmy Sheckard

I'm once again only voting for Fletcher to hopefully keep him on the ballot. If he were getting enough support that I didn't need to help keep him around, I would probably not be voting for him. But I might be convinced to vote for him at some point.

I'm voting for Joss for the first time because I don't want to stand in the way of his election after all the support he's gotten.

I'm now the only person voting for Bradley, which is troubling.

I'm very, very close on Del Pratt.

[jjpm74]

I'm very, very close on Del Pratt.

As am I. I'd really like to hear more about him.

[DoubleX]

Great and lengthy bio on Pratt at the SABR Biography Project site. (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&pid=11446&bid=1124) The opening sentence is, "Del Pratt was arguably the second-best second baseman of the second decade of the 20th century." I guess people can read the article and go over his stats and decide for themselves whether or not Pratt reasonably does have such a claim, and if so, whether that's enough for the Hall.

I voted for him. I'm not positive yet he belongs, but he's close and intrigues me and I didn't want to see him fall off the ballot.

[DoubleX]

Giving this a bump - it was about to fall off the first page. Also hoping there's another vote or two out there for Joss, because there's likely at least one coming in against Joss.

[DoubleX]

As expected, AG has submitted his 11th hour vote and knocked Joss under the line. There's about an hour and a half left and Joss is one vote a way. If it stays like this, it would be the ridiculous third time Joss has come up a vote short. We've only had 23 votes so far this time, so is there at least another vote out there?

[Captain Cold Nose]

Bender
Chance
Cravath
Griffith
Joss
Kling
Reulbach
Sheckard

[AG2004]

Instead, I'll respond to some of the reservations that have been mentioned about Joss:

. . . .

2) Joss wasn't a workhorse.

I admit, this is something a valid argument. Joss only twice finished in the top 5 in IP. However, he wasn't terrible in racking up innings, averaging a very respectable 278 IP over the first 8 seasons of his career, twice reaching at least 325 (his last season he pitched just 107 due to injury).

What's more important, however, is the quality of the innings he did pitch. I don't see how one can say that a 142 ERA+ over 2300+ innings is not impressive. That's quite a peak, and over the course of 9 consecutive seasons no less. Joss' great ERA+ during that time, makes up for the IP advantage that other pitchers might have, because not many pitchers are going to have a 142 ERA+ over a period of 9 consecutive years (maybe their 9 best strung together, but consecutive is more rare).

. . . .

The low number of innings pitched does hurt Joss in win share totals.

1903 - 20 WS. Joss was 18th among major leaguers.
1904 - 16 WS. Joss was 18th in the AL; I didn't bother to check the NL.
1905 - 25 WS. Joss was 10th in the majors, 7th in the AL.
1906 - 23 WS. Joss was 11th in the majors, 6th in the AL.
1907 - 28 WS. Joss was 8th in the majors, 4th in the AL.
1908 - 35 WS. Joss was 3rd in the majors, 2nd in the AL.
1909 - 20 WS. Joss was 16th in the majors, 7th in the AL.

Now let's compare this to Griffith.

1894 - 19 win shares. Griffith was 16th in the majors/NL.
1895 - 34 win shares. Griffith was 4th in the majors.
1896 - 30 win shares. Griffith was 6th in the majors.
1897 - 22 win shares. Griffith was 12th in the majors.
1898 - 32 win shares. Griffith was 4th in the majors.
1899 - 25 win shares. Griffith was 12th in the majors.
1900 - 19 win shares. Griffith was 7th in the majors.
(The majors had just 8 teams in 1900; this lowered everybody's WS total.)
1901 - 27 win shares. Griffith was 6th in the majors, 3rd in the AL.

Note that there was just one major league from 1892 to 1900; divide Griffith's standing by 2 to determine his approximate rank in a 2-league setup. That would give us about 5 top-four finishes and 7 top-seven finishes for Griffith in such a situation, compared to just 2 top-four finishes and 5 top-seven finishes for Joss.

The fact that there were only twelve major league teams during most of Griffith's peak also lowers his ERA+. Because there were fewer major league teams, the average pitcher in the 1890s was better than the average pitcher in the Oughts. (If you add four major league teams, the pitchers you add will be below average, and that brings the overall average down. If you then split the sixteen teams into two leagues, that won't change the average much, since the distribution of pitchers by ability between the leagues will be fairly even.)

So, if Griffith was better, compared to his contemporaries, than Joss, then why does Joss receive more support? That ERA+ helps, but it doesn't take into account Joss' workload, which was light compared to other star pitchers of his time, nor does it take into account the increase in the number of major league teams. Joss also died young, and he gets remembered as a star cut off in his prime. There was no decline phase to mar his image. With Griffith, however, his ownership of the Senators has overshadowed his pitching performance.

----

My ballot:
Frank Chance
Clark Griffith
Tommy Leach
Jimmy Sheckard

Finally, for those who followed my advice to invest in stocks (at the end of the 1928 comments): This setback in the market is temporary, and should correct itself in a year or, at most, two years. Wait long enough, and you will get your money back. Those stocks are still a better investment than those Imperial Russian War Bonds were.

[DoubleX]

So, if Griffith was better, compared to his contemporaries, than Joss, then why does Joss receive more support? That ERA+ helps, but it doesn't take into account Joss' workload, which was light compared to other star pitchers of his time, nor does it take into account the increase in the number of major league teams. Joss also died young, and he gets remembered as a star cut off in his prime. There was no decline phase to mar his image. With Griffith, however, his ownership of the Senators has overshadowed his pitching performance.

It might be because no one, at least until your post, put forth a good case for Griffith. Not that it wasn't out there, but I have found that discussion has definitely helped build support for players. I've been voting for Griffith, but never really thought enough about his case to lay it out there.

Joss' workload was light relative to his contemporaries, which I admitted as a deficiency, but the quality of the innings he did pitch was extremely high, enough to compensate, at least for me. Griffith wasn't much better though compared to his contemporaries, as both finished in the top 10 in IP just twice. Granted, Griffith had the 12 team league, but Joss may have lost a decent year or two or three due to his early death. In any event, I put them about equal overall, and if it comes down to the VC, I'm more optimistic for Griffith's chances than Joss'.

[KCGHOST]

Griffith
Joss

the case for Joss comes down to whether you are willing to give him the "Koufax Medical Exemption" for pitchers. This exemption has been used to induct Koufax, Dean and Joss. Some people are willing to do this and some people aren't. Up to you. To me Joss's very short career (technically too short by today's standards) is offset by a staggering ERA+ of 142 and and the fact that amongst all pitchers with 350+ IP's he had the lowest WHiP in the history of the game.

[AG2004]

the case for Joss comes down to whether you are willing to give him the "Koufax Medical Exemption" for pitchers. This exemption has been used to induct Koufax, Dean and Joss. Some people are willing to do this and some people aren't. Up to you. To me Joss's very short career (technically too short by today's standards) is offset by a staggering ERA+ of 142 and and the fact that amongst all pitchers with 350+ IP's he had the lowest WHiP in the history of the game.

Dory Dean? 4-26 for Cincinnati back in '76, then never heard from again? Nobody named Koufax has ever played in the majors.

Bob Caruthers is in the Hall, and he was a pitcher with a short career. However, he was in the top two among major leaguers in win shares for four straight seasons, and in the top two in the AA each year for five consecutive years.

Ross Barnes is a position player who had a short career. However, he was arguably the best position player in the game three times in a five-year period.

Joss was never quite as good as Caruthers or Barnes; he didn't reach the level of dominance needed to counterbalance a short career. Jennings and Caruthers had the high peaks, and I supported them.

[Freakshow]

the case for Joss ...and the fact that amongst all pitchers with 350+ IP's he had the lowest WHiP in the history of the game.
But not quite the lowest of his era.

Lowest WhiP, 1902-10, 2000+ IP
Cnt Player WHIP ERA+ IP From To
+----+-----------------+-----+----+------+----+----+
1 Ed Walsh 0.940 150 2012 1904 1910
2 Addie Joss 0.968 142 2327 1902 1910
3 Cy Young 0.990 133 2815.1 1902 1910
4 Mordecai Brown 0.998 162 2123 1903 1910

[jjpm74]

Joss was never quite as good as Caruthers or Barnes; he didn't reach the level of dominance needed to counterbalance a short career. Jennings and Caruthers had the high peaks, and I supported them.

Addie Joss's best comparable in his own era is Jack Chesbro. As far as I can tell, Chesbro didn't even show up on a ballot even though his final game was in 1909. Did we somehow overlook him?

[BlueBlood]

Well, it's good to see Joss go in. He probably would have had a hard time since the VC has plenty of detractors.

[Paul Wendt]

. . . Finally, for those who followed my advice to invest in stocks (at the end of the 1928 comments): This setback in the market is temporary, and should correct itself in a year or, at most, two years. Wait long enough, and you will get your money back. Those stocks are still a better investment than those Imperial Russian War Bonds were.
I may have a chance to buy a piece of the Phillies and the Athletics. That may surprise you, now that Mr. Mack has his team back on top, and it is a young team. McGraw never fields a weak team but Mr. Mack did that for ten years. Still, it seems clear that the Phillies will be the one to shut down or leave this city if this gets much worse. I am not sure there is a good place to go, but maybe Atlantic City?

By the way Mr. Mack would not mind a school of smaller investors like me. The Phillies, on the other hand, I happen to know, would like to find one magnanimous sportsman with a lot more money than I have, or anyone I know. They would like to sell the whole thing. Only this summer it seemed a sure thing that the Baker Bowl must soon fall to the march of self-interest would lead the way, but this new climate has put a chill on every option except that magnanimous sportsman.

[DoubleX]

Addie Joss's best comparable in his own era is Jack Chesbro. As far as I can tell, Chesbro didn't even show up on a ballot even though his final game was in 1909. Did we somehow overlook him?

You know what? I think we have somehow overlooked Chesbro. He wasn't on the 1914 ballot. He'd be eligible for the VC now. I'll give him a special exemption and put him on the final VC ballot.

[jjpm74]

You know what? I think we have somehow overlooked Chesbro. He wasn't on the 1914 ballot. He'd be eligible for the VC now. I'll give him a special exemption and put him on the final VC ballot.

I think he should go on the regular 1930 ballot and if support is there, get a 15 year cycle to be fair.

[Freakshow]

You know what? I think we have somehow overlooked Chesbro. He wasn't on the 1914 ballot. He'd be eligible for the VC now. I'll give him a special exemption and put him on the final VC ballot.I think this is fair treatment. Since, nobody noticed his absence until now, clearly he is not a serious candidate.

[BlueBlood]

Definitely chuck him into the VC pool.

[DoubleX]

It is extremely regrettable that we missed Chesbro. If we caught it sooner I would throw him on the regular ballot, as we did with George Stone. But it's been 16 years, so the VC seems like the best place now to look at him.

I do think it's safe to say he would not have been elected, but beyond that, it's tough to gauge what level of support he would have garnered. I believe he's on a similar level to Chief Bender, who is getting a surprising amount of support, but I don't think Chesbro would have been as fortunate. I perceive him as someone who may have clung on for a few years but probably have dropped off before 15 years.

[jjpm74]

It is extremely regrettable that we missed Chesbro. If we caught it sooner I would throw him on the regular ballot, as we did with George Stone. But it's been 16 years, so the VC seems like the best place now to look at him.

I do think it's safe to say he would not have been elected, but beyond that, it's tough to gauge what level of support he would have garnered. I believe he's on a similar level to Chief Bender, who is getting a surprising amount of support, but I don't think Chesbro would have been as fortunate. I perceive him as someone who may have clung on for a few years but probably have dropped off before 15 years.

The real shocker is that none of the Joss supporters picked up on it since Chesbro is very similar to Joss.

[DoubleX]

The real shocker is that none of the Joss supporters picked up on it since Chesbro is very similar to Joss.

How do you think they are very similar? I don't really see it. Both had shortish careers, but they look pretty different instead the bookends.

[jjpm74]

Jalbright does a good comparison here:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1367860&postcount=24

Bender, Marquard, Chesbro and Joss are all of the same ilk from this generation of stars. That's why I'm so surprised Joss managed so much support where Bender has not. IMO, Marquard should be a definite yes for anyone who felt Joss was a yes when the 1930 ballot is posted.