BBF VC Progressive HoF Election: 1930 Preliminary

[DoubleX]

Below is the master list. Players in bold are newly eligible for the VC, while players in italics made it to the final ballot last time. I want to give a few days before voting to allow for suggested to additions to the ballot. Anyone that heldover at least one year in the regular election is on this list, but that was mostly for convenience and anyone who was eligible for the regular election can be added to this list upon suggestion.

Also, the VC will expand by four members this time to a total of 15, as pvnick, henrich, cowtipper, and captain cold nose have joined. Anyone is free to participate in the discussion though.

Here's how the process works: We have two rounds of voting. In the first round, voters must list who they believe are the 15 best candidates on the master list. A final ballot will then be made consisting of every player that received at least 50% support in the first round. Voters will then to elect players from the master ballot, with 75% needed for election. NOTE: Some players are also eligible as contributors. If you feel a person's worthiness is not based primarily on his playing career, you should not vote for him here but vote for him in the contributors election. Basically, if you feel more than 50% of a person's Hall of Fame case is predicated on non-playing contributions, you should not vote for him here. It is also possible that a person can be independently worthy as a both a player and contributor, in that rare case, it may be appropriate to vote for him in both capacities.

Each round of voting will last up to a week. If after a week not every member has voted, the results will be based on a quorum requiring that at least 12 members have voted.

Master List
Ginger Beaumont
Tommy Bond
Charlie Buffinton
Jack Burdock
Oyster Burns
Jack Chesbro - Special exemption, will automatically be on final ballot (so don't vote for him in the first round)
John Clapp
Boileryard Clarke
Larry Corcoran
Tommy Corcoran
Lave Cross
Nig Cuppy
Candy Cummings
Abner Dalyrmple
Bill Dinneen
Jack Doyle
Fred Dunlap
Frank Dwyer
Duke Farrell
Bob Ferguson
Cherokee Fisher
Wes Fisler
Silver Flint
Davy Force
Dave Foutz
Kid Gleason
Mike Griffin
Clark Griffith (if not elected in 1928 or 1929)
Noodles Hahn
Ned Hanlon
Dummy Hoy
Charley Jones
Fielder Jones
Addie Joss (if not elected in 1928 or 1929)
Brickyard Kennedy
Silver King
Arlie Latham
Sam Leever
Andy Leonard
Bobby Lowe
Denny Lyons
Fergy Malone
Bobby Mathews
Jimmy McAleer
Dick McBride
Tommy McCarthy
Jim McCormick
John McGraw
Deacon McGuire
Ed McKean
Levi Meyerle
Billy Nash
Jack O'Connor
Tip O'Neill
Dave Orr
John Peters
Claude Ritchey
Wilbert Robinson
Jack Rowe
Jimmy Ryan
Chick Stahl
George Stone
Mike Tiernan
John Warner
Will White
Jim Whitney
Ned Williamson
Jimmy Williams
Tom York
George Zettlein
Chief Zimmer

[Paul Wendt]

Master List
. . .
Bill Craver
George Hall
I don't object, only remind.
George Hall and Jim Devlin (not listed) were the best players on the Louisville Grays, NL 1876-77. Late in summer 1877 they conspired with teammate A. Nichols (not listed), with professional gamblers, and perhaps with teammate Bill Craver to lose several games and the pennant race. Hall & Devlin confessed and permitted the ballclub to read their telegraph communications (or the log?). Nichols was a bit ballplayer with the right friends in the right places. Craver did not confess or permit release of records but he was also expelled by the club and the league for life.

The Louisville Grays went out of business; so did the St Louis Browns who had acquired the players for 1878. Having lost Philadelphia, New York, and Brooklyn/Hartford to different circumstances, for a few years the NL struggled to find oppos for Chicago, Cincinnati, and Boston.

[leecemark]

Charlie Comiskey
Candy Cummings
Bill Dinneen
Bob Ferguson
Clark Griffith (if not elected in 1928 or 1929)
Noodles Hahn
Charley Jones
Fielder Jones
Jim McCormick
Deacon McGuire
Ed McKean
Levi Meyerle
Jimmy Ryan
Mike Tiernan
Ned Williamson
--Most of these I wouldn't vote for, but they are perhaps the 15 most deserving of making the ballot. Griffith is the only one I'd for sure vote for. A few others I'm open to persuation.

[bambambaseball]

Tommy Bond
Larry Corcoran
Lave Cross
Duke Farrell
Clark Griffith
Noodles Hahn
Dummy Hoy
Charley Jones
Addie Joss
Jim McCormick
John McGraw
Deacon McGuire
Ed McKean
Jimmy Ryan
Mike Tiernan

[jjpm74]

I really think you need to go through the contributors ballot and weed out a lot of that list. There should also be links to the contributors ballot on your main page even if you do not want to list the contributors. If not, I don't see any point in me continuing with that end of the project. Charlie Comiskey was already elected as a contributor. I doubt too many people would take him seriously as a player. These people are also probably better suited to the contributor's ballot when they turn 60, pass away or retire from the game:

Candy Cummings
Kid Gleason
Clark Griffith (if not elected in 1928 or 1929)
Ned Hanlon
Dummy Hoy
John McGraw
Deacon McGuire
Wilbert Robinson
Ned Williamson
Chief Zimmer

and possibly a few others as well.

[dgarza]

Has the 1st voting week started? Or are people just getting head starts?

[jjpm74]

Has the 1st voting week started? Or are people just getting head starts?

I'm not sure, but I don't plan on posting my preliminary ballot until after the 1929 regular election has concluded. I'm not comfortable with the idea of considering players who are still on the regular ballot.

[PVNICK]

Bond
Comiskey
Cross
Griffin
Griffith
Hahn
Hanlon
C. Jones
King
Leever
McGraw
McCormick
O'Neill
Ryan
Tiernan

[DoubleX]

I really think you need to go through the contributors ballot and weed out a lot of that list. There should also be links to the contributors ballot on your main page even if you do not want to list the contributors. If not, I don't see any point in me continuing with that end of the project. Charlie Comiskey was already elected as a contributor. I doubt too many people would take him seriously as a player. These people are also probably better suited to the contributor's ballot when they turn 60, pass away or retire from the game:

Candy Cummings
Kid Gleason
Clark Griffith (if not elected in 1928 or 1929)
Ned Hanlon
Dummy Hoy
John McGraw
Deacon McGuire
Wilbert Robinson
Ned Williamson
Chief Zimmer

and possibly a few others as well.

Good call. Comiskey will obviously come off. Some of these guys are a little tricky, such as Griffith. I think it's entirely possible that Griffith could be elected here on the strength of his playing accomplishments, and I wouldn't want to foreclose that.

I'd say we do this - adopt distinct standards. Judge people here only by their playing careers, just as we did in the regular elections, and judge by the totality of everything they did in the contributors election. This will leave open the possibility of a dual election, but it will be rare and could be limited to someone like Clark Griffith. I'd want to give at least one shot for the VC to consider the playing careers of someone like Griffith and McGraw.

I also don't see why you have guys like Hoy, McGuire and Zimmer on the contributors ballot. Their stakes are predominantly as players. As times goes on, I might split up the players VC into different time periods, as the actual VC has done this year (and wisely so, IMO).

Cummings is an interesting case as well. I feel comfortable with him on this ballot given that we have elected a number of his peers as players, but if you think he's better suited for the contributors, I'm fine with that as well.

Additionally, I did not want voting to begin yet, I wanted a short discussion period so we can take care of things like this. So those who have voted may have to resubmit their lists.

[jjpm74]

Good call. Comiskey will obviously come off. Some of these guys are a little tricky, such as Griffith. I think it's entirely possible that Griffith could be elected here on the strength of his playing accomplishments, and I wouldn't want to foreclose that.

I'd say we do this - adopt distinct standards. Judge people here only by their playing careers, just as we did in the regular elections, and judge by the totality of everything they did in the contributors election. This will leave open the possibility of a dual election, but it will be rare and could be limited to someone like Clark Griffith. I'd want to give at least one shot for the VC to consider the playing careers of someone like Griffith and McGraw.

Maybe for people like John McGraw and Clark Griffith, we could make a judgement call as to whether their greatest achievements came as players or contributors then consider the totality of their careers regardless of which ballot they end up on? IMO, McGraw and Griffith were players first and formost, but their additional contributions to the game are what put them in the HOF. If we are forced to only consider play here as well, players/contributors might fall through the cracks.

I also don't see why you have guys like Hoy, McGuire and Zimmer on the contributors ballot. Their stakes are predominantly as players. As times goes on, I might split up the players VC into different time periods, as the actual VC has done this year (and wisely so, IMO).

I only listed them because all three did something that added to the game in some way beyond their playing careers. Hoy was an embassador of the game and the face of the deadball era. Zimmer and McGuire both were good at getting endorsements at a time when they were few and far between. Hoy, Zimmer and McGuire are definitely players. Down the road, Hoy may be revisited as a contributor however as he did quite a bit for the game after he retired (obviously these events have not occurred yet) and some credit him with popularizing non-spoken communication in the game.

Cummings is an interesting case as well. I feel comfortable with him on this ballot given that we have elected a number of his peers as players, but if you think he's better suited for the contributors, I'm fine with that as well.

Players like Cummings are a perfect example of why we need to be able to look at the totality of a player's career regardless of which VC ballot they end up on. As a player, he falls just short. As a contributor, he also falls just short. Combined, looking at who endorses him from one or the other, he is a HOFer.

Wilbert Robinson was nominated by somene to the contributor's ballot. He also is better known as a manager than as a player. He's best suited as a contributor rather than player at this point as his managerial career eclipses his playing career. He is also eligible via the age rule for contributors. However, playing career should be factored in for contributors who also played the game.

[DoubleX]

Maybe for people like John McGraw and Clark Griffith, we could make a judgement call as to whether their greatest achievements came as players or contributors then consider the totality of their careers regardless of which ballot they end up on? IMO, McGraw and Griffith were players first and formost, but their additional contributions to the game are what put them in the HOF. If we are forced to only consider play here as well, players/contributors might fall through the cracks.

They won't fall through the cracks because they'll be on the contributors ballot. The contributors ballot can consider the totality of everything they did in baseball, including playing, whereas this ballot only includes playing.

Players like Cummings are a perfect example of why we need to be able to look at the totality of a player's career regardless of which VC ballot they end up on. As a player, he falls just short. As a contributor, he also falls just short. Combined, looking at who endorses him from one or the other, he is a HOFer.

Cummings primary contribution, the curveball, came while he was a player, and thus I think it's a fair subjective thing to consider when assessing his playing career.

Wilbert Robinson was nominated by somene to the contributor's ballot. He also is better known as a manager than as a player. He's best suited as a contributor rather than player at this point as his managerial career eclipses his playing career. He is also eligible via the age rule for contributors. However, playing career should be factored in for contributors who also played the game.

I'll concede Robinson because it's pretty clear that his playing career is outweighed by his managerial career. Plus, he's already had at least a turn here. As for guys like Gleason, Griffith, and McGraw, this is their first turn here, so I'd like to give them at least one opportunity to have their playing careers assessed by the VC. What I think we should do is make clear that here, we're considering just playing careers, same as the regular election, and thus if a voter feels a person is more worthy as a contributor, don't vote for him here and vote for him in the contributors election. Take McGraw, for instance. With that kind of statement, McGraw will likely not get so much support here but will likely get strong support from the contributors. Griffith might be the only one to really challenge dual election, but even so, I think he's more likely to be elected as a contributor.

[jjpm74]

Kid Gleason is more significant as a player than as a manager. If his eligibility expires here, it's unlikely he'll ever end up on the contributor's ballot.

John McGraw will not be eligible for the VC Contributor's ballot until 1940.

Clark Griffith is eligible for both ballots in 1930 (the only one as far as I can tell). Is the consensus among the entire VC that he should be listed as a player and not as a contributor in 1930?

Are there any others who should be on the contributor's ballot listed above or who have not been nominated yet?

This is the contributor's ballot if no one else is nominated:

Cap Anson
Frank C. Bancroft
Sy Berger
John T. Brush
Morgan Bulkeley
Charlie H. Byrne
O.P. Caylor
Bob Ferguson
Rube Foster
Ned Hanlon
Garry Herrmann
Connie Mack
A.G. Mills
Tim Murnane
Frank Osborn
Al Reach
Francis Richter
Wilbert Robinson
Frank Selee
Ben Shibe
Arthur Soden
Charles Somers
Albert Goodwill Spalding
Alfred H. Spink
J.G. Taylor Spink
Harry Stevens
Chris von der Ahe
John Ward

http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85051

[Cowtipper]

Bond
Buffinton
T. Corcoran
Cross
Griffith (if not elected)
Hoy
C. Jones
Joss (if not elected)
Leever
McCormick
McGuire
McKean
Ryan
Tiernan
White

If Joss is elected, replace him with Tip O'Neill.

[DoubleX]

Just a general note - Cowtipper has joined us bringing our total to 16. We'll still require a quorum of 12. This keeps it nice at 75% for a quorum.

I also think we'll delay voting until after the 1929 regular election is over, because as JJPM mentioned, Joss and Griffith are still alive, and Joss has a decent shot at election. I also need some more time to think over what to do with those crossover player/contributor candidates. For now, I'm leaning towards having them on both ballots (if eligible for the contributor ballot) but reminding voters that here, we're still voting only as players. If you feel someone did not do enough as a player but has enough when factoring in contributions, vote for him on the contributors ballot.

As for Cummings,what's the general consensus where he should be? I'm inclined to keep him here because we have elected players who played even less post-1871 than he did, and his contribution, the curveball came as a player.

[jjpm74]

As for Cummings,what's the general consensus where he should be? I'm inclined to keep him here because we have elected players who played even less post-1871 than he did, and his contribution, the curveball came as a player.

I'd be inclined to keep him here as long as voters understand that his contribution does factor in this rare instance. Maybe we could establish a rule where if the player's contribution came as a player that it factors in when deciding on his case as a player.

Dummy Hoy for instance is credited with establishing hand signals for safe and out calls. Since this came as a player, it would factor in.

Clark Griffith on the flip side had a successful career as a manager and is now a successful executive in the game. Since this came about as his playing career started to wind down it does not factor in.

One other player who is unlikely to get voted in via the regular ballot that we'll have to eventually iron out is Frank Chance. As a player he falls just short. As a manager alone he falls into the gray area. When we factor in both, he is a HOFer, but his most successful years as a manager came when he was also a successful player. Does just his playing career factor in (as I'm assuming most people not voting for him are doing in the regular election) or does his managerial career factor in when he becomes eligible for the player's ballot?

[DoubleX]

I'd be inclined to keep him here as long as voters understand that his contribution does factor in this rare instance. Maybe we could establish a rule where if the player's contribution came as a player that it factors in when deciding on his case as a player.

I think we've had that rule all long, though perhaps it hasn't been stressed enough. It's like considering managerial accomplishments as a player/manager. I'll try to make the rules clearer though.

I think popularizing the curveball is an extremely notable element of Cummings' playing career, and a subjective factor that should be considered when evaluating his playing career. It's not dissimilar from the BBWAA likely factoring in Sutters' reported popularizing of the splitter.

Dummy Hoy for instance is credited with establishing hand signals for safe and out calls. Since this came as a player, it would factor in.

I've read mixed things on that and that signals may have been invented not by him, but by others to accommodate him. Either way, I would say it should be something to consider as part of his playing career. I don't think it's nearly enough for him to get in as a contributor.

Clark Griffith on the flip side had a successful career as a manager and is now a successful executive in the game. Since this came about as his playing career started to wind down it does not factor in.

Griffith is actually an easier case, IMO, because as you said, we can mostly separate his playing career from his other contributions. I think he could be fairly listed on both ballots. If he happens to be elected as a contributor and not a player, I'll remove him from the players ballot just as a I'll remove Comiskey.

Again, I'll try to make the rules clear though and use Griffith as an example. If you believe Griffith should be elected based only on what he did as a player, vote for him here. If you believe that Griffith didn't do enough as a player but did enough as a player and a contributor (or even just as a contributor), vote for him as a contributor. I also think it's entirely possible to vote for Griffith in both capacities - I might.

One other player who is unlikely to get voted in via the regular ballot that we'll have to eventually iron out is Frank Chance. As a player he falls just short. As a manager alone he falls into the gray area. When we factor in both, he is a HOFer, but his most successful years as a manager came when he was also a successful player. Does just his playing career factor in (as I'm assuming most people not voting for him are doing in the regular election) or does his managerial career factor in when he becomes eligible for the player's ballot?

As I've been stressing in the regular election with Chance, his accomplishments as a player/manager are what put him over the top. So his managerial accomplishments as a player I believe can be considered when assessing his career as a player.

[leecemark]

--Whatever the rules may say this is essentially a subjective exercise. For me a combination candidate is going to get the vote for whichever side I think they are more deserving on. Or whichever side they seem more likely to get elected on as the case may be.

[DoubleX]

--Whatever the rules may say this is essentially a subjective exercise. For me a combination candidate is going to get the vote for whichever side I think they are more deserving on. Or whichever side they seem more likely to get elected on as the case may be.

Where do would you put someone like Griffith?

[leecemark]

--I've been voting for him in the regular elections so he will be on my players ballot in 1930. If he doesn't look like he is going to make it as a player in the VC then perhaps I'll switch him over as a contributor in 1935. I think he is deserving in both categories although I don't intend to ever vote for someone in both. Once you're a Hall of Famer then you don't need my vote anymore.

[AG2004]

As for Cummings,what's the general consensus where he should be? I'm inclined to keep him here because we have elected players who played even less post-1871 than he did, and his contribution, the curveball came as a player.

Cummings was instrumental in the founding of the IA in 1877, and served as its first president. Depending on your interpretation, it was the either first major league rival to the NL (and it lasted four seasons, more than the UA or the FL) or the first minor league. If we classify the UA as a major league, then we should also classify the IA as one. In either case, we do have a significant contribution from Cummings that did not come from his role as a player.

Since he does have a non-playing contribution, I would keep him on both ballots.

----

While I'm at it, I'll post my preliminary ballot.

Tommy Bond
Candy Cummings
Dave Foutz
Mike Griffin
Clark Griffith (if not elected in 1929)

Charley Jones
Fielder Jones
Addie Joss (if not elected in 1929)
Denny Lyons
John McGraw

Billy Nash
Tip O'Neill
Jimmy Ryan
Mike Tiernan
Ed Williamson (he wasn't called Ned while he was alive)

16. Dick McBride (if either Griffith or Joss is elected in 1929)
17. Levi Meyerle (if both Griffith and Joss are elected in 1929)

[DoubleX]

I want to reopen this up for preliminary voting. I'll give to Wednesday (12/10) for preliminary voting. If we have at least 12 ballots by that point, we'll go with the quorum rule.

At this point Addie Joss stands a decent chance of election in the regular election (Clark Griffith is pretty much done). You may include Joss among your top 15 here, but if you do, please include an alternate on your ballot here should Joss be elected in the regular election. Thanks!

If you have already submitted a ballot, I'll count it, but please name an alternate if you have Joss on the ballot and you haven't given an alternate. Also, a couple of you have voted for Comiskey. As JJPM pointed out, he's been elected as a contributor and thus there really is no need to keep him here. I've removed him from the list and I'd appreciate it if the Comiskey voters can name a replacement.

[DoubleX]

Given that Jimmy Ryan came within just 1 vote of election last time and that at least one voter stated an intention to shift support to Ryan in this election, and that I still don't understand why he's not in by Duffy and Van Haltren are, I want to repost the information I posted last time:

Average of Top 5 OPS+ Seasons
Ryan: 148.4
Duffy: 139.2
Van Haltren: 135

Average of Top 10 OPS+ Seasons
Ryan: 134.5
Van Haltren: 132.3
Duffy: 129.3 - This includes his year in the Players League as well as two years where he had less than 300 ABs. Remove those three years, and 10 year peak average drops to 121.7

No. of OPS+ Seasons Above 140
Ryan: 4
Duffy: 2
Van Haltren: 0

Career OPS+
Ryan: 123
Duffy: 122
Van Haltren: 121

Plate Appearances
Ryan: 9106 - So Ryan had the highest OPS+ in the most playing time.
Van Haltren: 8979
Duffy: 7827

Runs Created
Ryan: 1341
Van Haltren: 1288
Duffy: 1228

Runs Created per Game
Duffy: 6.6
Ryan: 6.1
Van Haltren: 6.1

WARP3
Ryan: 84.5
Van Haltren: 82.2
Duffy: 76.4

EQA
Van Haltren: .285
Ryan: .280
Duffy: .275

EQR
Ryan: 1424
Van Haltren: 1375
Duffy: 1142

Career Hits
Van Hatlren: 2532
Ryan: 2502
Duffy: 2282

Career Doubles
Ryan: 451
Duffy: 325
Van Haltren: 285

Career Triples
Van Haltren: 161
Ryan: 157
Duffy: 119

Career Homeruns
Ryan: 118
Duffy: 106
Van Haltren: 69

Career RBI
Duffy: 1302
Ryan: 1093
Van Haltren: 1014

Career Stolen Bases
Van Haltren: 583
Duffy: 574
Ryan: 418

Career Games in CF
Van Haltren: 1372
Ryan: 956
Duffy: 676

Percentage of Total Games in CF
Van Haltren: 68%
Ryan: 47%
Duffy: 39%

Career Win Shares
Van Haltren: 344
Jimmy Ryan: 316
Hugh Duffy: 295

Peak Win Share Season
Jimmy Ryan: 34
Hugh Duffy: 33
Van Haltren: 30 - This was in the Players League. His highest non-PL season is 29.

Top 5 Win Shares
Hugh Duffy: 144 (143 if not counting a year in the PL)
Jimmy Ryan: 135
George Van Haltren: 133 (126 if not counting a year in the PL)

Top 10 Win Shares
Hugh Duffy: 251 (250 if not counting a year in the PL)
George Van Haltren: 243 (234 if not counting a year in the PL)
Jimmy Ryan: 222

It seems the only thing really going against Ryan is peak win shares (though that's going against Van Haltren as well), and personally, I'm continually dismayed about how much emphasis people have placed on Win Shares in this project. It should not be the be all and end all as it has been. So many other measures show Ryan as both the better peak and career performer, or at least on par with Duffy and Van Haltren. By simultaneously electing Duffy and Van Haltren, we definitively defined our standard in the OF as to that generation, and Ryan, as a peer as those players, with strong arguments for being at least on par with them, should be in as well.

Along this last point, I wanted to repost this snippet of the previous conversation:

Again, it's Ryan's per season average that kills things for me. Using Win Shares as a tool, it shows him remarkably below the other two. He had a comparable peak but not enough good seasons to add on the extra value that the other two managed via consistency.

Win Shares is just one of many tools, and most other tools show Ryan as being either on par or better than the other two, and that should count for something. Moreover, Win Shares are not that against Ryan that it should make such a difference as: 1) He has the highest peak season in Win Shares of the three players; 2) He is ahead of Van Haltren in 5-year peak Win Shares, and all three are pretty close together in 5-year peak; and 3) He is ahead of Duffy in career win shares. The only area where he is somewhat lacking, in all the many measures that have been posted here, is 10 year peak Win Shares. But that's just one measure among many, and I don't see how that can make the difference, and to put so much weight in that above all other information strikes me as arbitrary.

Further, Ryan has a fairly commanding lead in peak OPS+, is slightly ahead in career OPS+ despite more plate appearances (fairly significantly more than Duffy), and measures like RC, EQA, EQR, WARP2, WARP3, and raw statistics, overall paint him him in a slightly better light than the other two (particularly Duffy).

[jalbright]

My preliminary ballot, very few of whom I actually support.


Tommy Bond*
Lave Cross*
Candy Cummings*
Fred Dunlap*
Mike Griffin*
Charley Jones*
Bobby Mathews*
Jim McCormick*
Deacon McGuire*
Levi Meyerle*
Tip O'Neill*
Dave Orr*
Jimmy Ryan*
Mike Tiernan*
Ned Williamson*
(the asterisks were just a way to help me pick 15)

[Paul Wendt]

Here I will nominate everyone with strong support in one of our previous veterans committee elections. That seems reasonable given that we have several new voting members *and* that I have plenty of room to be inclusive. There are seven.

We have five candidates who enjoyed strong support in 1920 and 1925,

Candy Cummings
Charley Jones
Jim McCormick
Ed McKean
Mike Tiernan

one more with strong support in 1925 (a newcomer then),

Jimmy Ryan

and one more with strong support in 1920 (not on the 1925 ballot),

Dick McBride

(Beside Cummings and McBride,
Jim Creighton, Al Reach, and Harry Wright enjoyed strong support in our one and only Pioneer Players election. Those three are now in the contributors pool while Cummings and McBride are in this players pool.)


Here I will also nominate all of the newcomers who enjoyed strong support in the regular annual elections. There are five who survived 15 years on the annual ballot,

Lave Cross
Clark Griffith
Fielder Jones
Addie Joss
John McGraw

and they seem to be the only newcomers with more than 3 years!

My 13th nominee will be

Mike Griffin

the one also-ran whom I supported in 1925 (and in the annual elections).

[Paul Wendt]

See the preceding note for 11 to 13 of my 15 nominations, depending on the fortunes of Griffith and Joss in the annual election for 1930.

Revisiting previous elections, continued

Behind Griffin (2 votes) the other also-rans in 1925 were
: Bond, Foutz, King (three pitchers), O'Neill, and Dunlap.

The other also-rans in 1920 were
: Bond (2 votes), Dunlap, Lyons, and Williamson.

If several other people nominate them here, then I will probably chime in. (Probably I helped nominate most of them, although I did not vote for them in the past.)

--
Among the newcomers for 1930,
: Noodles Hahn was on the ballot for three annual elections;
: Deacon McGuire, only one annual election. Evidently I neglected to vote for him.

Two players survived for at least five elections beginning 1902 to 1910,
: Dummy Hoy (6)
: Denny Lyons (5)
and there were several others beginning with our initial election in 1901,
: Larry Corcoran, Jim McCormick, Charley Jones (15)
: Bob Ferguson, Tip O'Neill (7),
: Charlie Comiskey, Will White, Ned Hanlon, Bobby Mathews, Dave Orr, Levi Meyerle (6 annual elections)

--
The nominating ballot by AG2004 (five screens up) includes one more name,
Billy Nash

Perhaps AG overlooked or neglected Billy Nash himself, as I overlooked Deacon McGuire, for Nash appeared in one annual election only, meaning that he did not get a single vote.

[dgarza]

Tommy Bond
Candy Cummings
Charley Jones
Addie Joss
Silver King
Denny Lyons
Bobby Mathews
Jim McCormick
Ed McKean
Levi Meyerle
Tip O'Neill
Dave Orr
Jimmy Ryan
Mike Tiernan
Will White

Alt. Larry Corcoran

[henrich]

Lave Cross
Jim McCormick
Jimmy Ryan
Addie Joss
Sam Leever
Tommy McCarthy
Tip O'Neill
Duke Farrell
Deacon McGuire
Billy Nash
Dummy Hoy
Ginger Beaumont
Mike Griffin
Tommy McCarthy
Will White

[Paul Wendt]

henrich,
are you doubly sure of Tommy McCarthy?
do you fear that a moderator will delete him once?
i say Fielder Jones beats tommy mccarthy twice. will you compromise and call it once?

[AG2004]

The nominating ballot by AG2004 (five screens up) includes one more name,
Billy Nash

Perhaps AG overlooked or neglected Billy Nash himself, as I overlooked Deacon McGuire, for Nash appeared in one annual election only, meaning that he did not get a single vote.

Nash was on the ballot in 1903, and he was not among the top 15 players available that year. With the backlog, I'm not surprised that he didn't get a vote that time. However, I listed him on my preliminary ballot for 1925; in that year, I believed that he was among the top fifteen players outside our Hall (but still not deserving of enshrinement).

Is our Hall in Brooklyn (as mentioned in 1901) or Hoboken?

[jjpm74]

Bold is player number 16 in the event Addie Joss gets elected.

Larry Corcoran
Lave Cross
Candy Cummings
Bill Dinneen
Dave Foutz
Clark Griffith
Noodles Hahn
Dummy Hoy
Charley Jones
Fielder Jones
Addie Joss
Dick McBride
Deacon McGuire
Ed McKean
Jimmy Ryan
Chief Zimmer--number 16 in the event Joss is elected

[DoubleX]

Mark, PVNick, could you guys please replace Comiskey on your ballots?

My List:

Lave Cross
Candy Cummings
Fred Dunlap
Dave Foutz
Clark Griffith
Mike Griffin
Charley Jones
Fielder Jones
Addie Joss*
Jim McCormick
Ed McKean
Deacon McGuire
Levi Meyerle
Jimmy Ryan
Mike Tiernan

* Ginger Beaumont will replace Joss if Joss is elected

[PVNICK]

Bobby Mathews steps in for Comiskey.

[BlueBlood]

Tommy Bond
Charlie Buffinton
Candy Cummings
Clark Griffith
Dummy Hoy
Charley Jones
Silver King
Jim McCormick
John McGraw
Ed McKean
Tip O'Neill
Jimmy Ryan
Mike Tiernan
Ned Williamson
Chief Zimmer

[DoubleX]

We apparently completely overlooked Jack Chesbro in the regular elections. He would now be eligible for the VC, so I'm going to grant him an automatic pass to the final ballot.

[KCGHOST]

Cross
Dunlap
Griffin
Griffith
F. Jones
Joss
King
Lyons
McGraw
Nash
O'Neill
Ryan
Tiernan
Williamson
Zimmer

[Paul Wendt]

Lave Cross
Candy Cummings
Mike Griffin
Clark Griffith
Dummy Hoy
Charley Jones
Fielder Jones
Dick McBride
Jim McCormick
John McGraw
Deacon McGuire
Ed McKean
Jimmy Ryan
Mike Tiernan
Ed Williamson

These vote to nominate are influenced by the candidates real prospects to advance. Dick McBride is the only one named with fewer than six votes (unofficial); I would certainly vote for him in the final. Otherwise I have passed over some candidates with only a few votes, such as Nash and Dunlap, in favor of some with several votes, such as Williamson and McGraw.

I plan to remind myself of this tactic in five years (remind me!), and not begin by voting to renominate everyone who was on the final ballot in the past --for that they will need to get some votes in the final.

[philkid3]

I was thinking I'd voted already. My bad.

Tommy Bond
Lave Cross
Candy Cummings
Fred Dunlap
Dave Foutz
Mike Griffin
Charley Jones
Silver King
Denny Lyons
Dick McBride
Jim McCormick
John McGraw
Tip O'Neill
Jimmy Ryan
Mike Tiernan

[DoubleX]

We have 13 ballots in so we have a quorum. A player will have to be listed on at least 7 of the ballots to make the final ballot. I'm waiting for henrich and KCGhost to make some changes to their ballots before I finalize, but as of now, here's who will be on the final ballot:

Jimmy Ryan - 13 Votes
Charley Jones - 11 Votes
Mike Tiernan - 11 Votes
Lave Cross - 9 Votes
Candy Cummings - 9 Votes
Clark Griffith - 9 Votes
Jim McCormick - 9 Votes
Tip O'Neill - 9 Votes
Mike Griffin - 8 Votes
Tommy Bond - 7 Votes
Deacon McGuire - 7 Votes
Ed McKean - 7 Votes

Here are the rest of the results:

Fielder Jones - 6 Votes
John McGraw - 6 Votes
Ned Williamson - 6 Votes
Dummy Hoy - 5 Votes
Silver King - 5 Votes
Fred Dunlap - 4 Votes
Dave Foutz - 4 Votes
Denny Lyons - 4 Votes
Dick McBride - 4 Votes
Levi Meyerle - 4 Votes
Noodles Hahn - 3 Votes
Sam Leever - 3 Votes
Bobby Mathews - 3 Votes
Billy Nash - 3 Votes
Chief Zimmer - 3 Votes
Ginger Beaumont - 2 Votes
Charlie Buffinton - 2 Votes
Bill Dinneen - 2 Votes
Larry Corcoran - 2 Votes
Dave Orr - 2 Votes
Will White - 2 Votes
Duke Farrell - 1 Vote
Bob Ferguson - 1 Vote
Ned Halon - 1 Vote
Tommy McCarthy - 1 Vote
Tommy Corcoran - 1 Vote

[BlueBlood]

Jimmy Ryan - 13 Votes
Charley Jones - 11 Votes
Mike Tiernan - 11 Votes

Looks like these are the only three with a shot at election. If everybody votes, Jones/Tiernan would need all of the support of the eleven people that bothered to nominate them along with one of the two others. Very unlikely. Ryan would surely be nominated by everyone here, but can he get 12 of 15 when he couldn't get 9 of 12 earlier? Doubtful, but turnout can change everything.

[Paul Wendt]

We have 13 ballots in so we have a quorum. A player will have to be listed on at least 7 of the ballots to make the final ballot. I'm waiting for henrich and KCGhost to make some changes to their ballots before I finalize, but as of now, here's who will be on the final ballot:
Is John McGraw in limbo?
When I counted, his total was in between the two groups listed here (7, between 8 or more and 6 or fewer). Here he is not listed at all. But he isn't yet on the contributors ballot, either. Right?

[DoubleX]

Is John McGraw in limbo?
When I counted, his total was in between the two groups listed here (7, between 8 or more and 6 or fewer). Here he is not listed at all. But he isn't yet on the contributors ballot, either. Right?

I accidentally forgot him. He has 6 official votes - pvnick, ag2004, blueblood, kcghost, philkid3, and you. So he would not make the final ballot as of now.

[jjpm74]

Could someone please throw Fielder Jones a bone here? He is one vote shy of making the final ballot. While he's unlikely to get enough votes on the final ballot, he at least belongs in the discussion.

[DoubleX]

I think I gave ample time to edit those couple of votes, so we'll proceed to the final voting now. I'll create a new thread.